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elixirmixer
11-16-2016, 08:54 AM
I hypothesis, that within the secret recombination of the three principals there lies a deeper, fractal like gateway towards higher, ever improving ways to prepare and harness the powers of the vegetable realm, which has been the staff of life for humanity since the dawn of time...

I wish to share the contemplation into this mechanism with any with the ears to hear; therefore:

It can be said of spaygrics, that some of the most evolved forms of such preparations exist in the realm of plant stones.

I would agree with such notions, nevertheless, I wish to speculate a higher form of vegetable stone than that which is commonly known.

It has been successfully demonstrated, through such mediums as Andro's re-creation of Steve Calek's salt volatilization experiment; that despite the powerful, unusual and sometimes spectacular results, that can come from the recombination of plant sulphur, plant mercury, and well purified and calcined plant salts; there exists a higher form of salt, that which has ascended the helm.

I wish to speculate and theorise that, concerning the recombination of the three principals in the manner which we commonly know of in terms of the confection of plant stones; there is a superior method of conjuration, of which i will now outlay:

From my experience, it is quite possible, when spagyric operations have been performed to the utmost correct-ness, and all has succeeded, and all has become one, that a miracle of nature occurs, in which the underlying quintessence becomes manifest, and infact, as quickly as all becomes one, they become two, a blood red, with celestial fragrance... and upon distillation of the ethanol, one discovers this hidden quintessense, from the blood of their 'would be' stone.

For this essence fly's higher than all oils, yet it is indeed an oil. It is heavier than all and yet fly's higher than them all, like unto the eagle, looking down on smaller birds...

If then, this secret, high soaring oil is isolated, and then, this spirit filled with love and blessings for it surely is, if it then be combined, with the volatised salts could one not conjure, a greater, higher form of stone. Of the same method but nevertheless a higher calibre, being compeltely pure, clear, wonderful, power from above and power from below, crystaline and celestial.

This surely, would be a higher form of stone.

We shall see i guess.

elixirmixer
03-14-2017, 12:07 AM
In lines with the topic of a 'higher grade' Stone, I would like to point towards the work of Hollandus' Complete alchemical writings, vol. 4, in his vegetable work, where he describes the theory of a process, in which the operator separates and removes the Water, Fire and Air Elements from their feces, without distillation.

The reason that Hollandus works without pyrolitic distillation, is in order to preserve what he calls the 'three spirits' which he believed was the true soul and quintessence of a thing.

Considering the typical type of vegetable stone going around these days, I thought this well belonged here, due to the fact that the calibre of stone is far more significant in this type of practise than in our typical spagyric preparations.

I couldn't recommend Hollandus anymore. Why waste all your time and money learning low level Spagyrics when there is such more potent methods to be had?

I'm just wrapping y head around this process now but it is my only priority in the lab now, next time you see a product of mine, it shall be a ruby red crystal ;)

elixirmixer
03-14-2017, 12:13 AM
Are you guys aware of any other authors that share hollandus's approach to vegetable works??

Axismundi000
03-14-2017, 08:58 AM
Pyrolytic distillation is I think a big ask for a person new to Lab Alchemy. Also I find that whilst some of the stuff that clogs up the lab glass is actually important stuff, cleaning the stenchy lab glass is time consuming. Also without a good cold trap vacuum distilling is not good (if using resins) because organic compounds can go upstream and kill the pump. I'm thinking of coming back to it with an air cooled boiling flask and Teflon tubing, modern stuff in the style of what Isaac did. Reading hollandus text he directly criticises the basic Spagyric stuff, burning all off into the air is criticised. Hollandus makes a good point however I do think the practical side of hollandus opera vegetibilia is a big ask for a newcomer compared to basic Spagyric stuff. If you are just setting up your lab and haven't done anything like that since school I suggest pyrolytic distillation is rather a big step for a newcomer.

elixirmixer
03-14-2017, 11:07 AM
Well, hollandus didn't really believe in pyrolitic distillation. He talks about it, but that's only in descriptive terms when talking about the elements seperatly. He makes it quite clear that all who do pyrolitic distillation are working on "dead bodies".

Yes I think you might be right axis about it being a bit of an ask from the new student. And it certainly did make a huge mess. I was very excited about the pyro distillation, but now I can see that it is simply, an enigma within an enigma, more riddles, and something that has to be pushed passed, because the subtle quintessense that we seek is not a friend of the vulgar fire.

Kiorionis
03-14-2017, 01:32 PM
In lines with the topic of a 'higher grade' Stone, I would like to point towards the work of Hollandus' Complete alchemical writings, vol. 4, in his vegetable work, where he describes the theory of a process, in which the operator separates and removes the Water, Fire and Air Elements from their feces, without distillation.

I don't know if this is necessarily true of Hollandus' operations in the Vegetable work.

From Chapter 18, end of first paragraph:


The evil cold or heat has to be removed from them by sublimation, distillation, calcination, dissolution and fixation, And by calcination, dissolution and coagulation. That has to be done so often that the bad poison the herbs have within them disappears and a great medicine becomes of them; yes, a great elixir.

and again, beginning of second paragraph:


one should cook a snake or dragon into a basilisk through sublimation, distillation, calcination, dissolution and fixation.

Schmuldvich
03-14-2017, 02:31 PM
A great start, imo, would be ensuring we have an actual understanding of what the word 'distillation' means as used by Hollandus in this context. Without a proper foundational understanding, how can we expect to proceed and accomplish what we set out to accomplish? Grummet, Fleischer, Bonus, and Parcelsus all leave us good clues in their writings.

elixirmixer
03-15-2017, 12:00 AM
Where I have used the term 'distillation' and said that it is not used; what I mean is that distillation by fire is not used.

Also, you'll notice that he has used the term distillation, congruently with the other process, signifying that it is more or less all one process...

Filtering could be considered a kind of distillation.

A very slow and gently 'sweating' could also be considered a distillation.

It is my opinion, that Hollandus would sweat out 'the water of the clouds' as gently as possible, then he would take his very well dried and crushed herbal matter and 'calcine' with the waters. Then he would filter, wait for precipitates, filter again, and then re-calcine the work, over and over. This is the method of which I have most interest, and even though hollandus talks about distilling and calcining, IMO, it was not the standard type of distilling and calcining we typically imagine.

This is just my opinion, but I'm pretty dam confident, so much so that I'm basically selling up my whole lab and purchasing a simplistic system specialised for this kid of 'sweat distillation'

To me, and my world, a stone created using vine leaves, and this method, is the one true Minus Opus. And has become my sole concern.

Good luck to the rest of you, catch me if you can :p :cool:

elixirmixer
03-15-2017, 12:05 AM
As Mr. Skrilix has pointed out in a previous post, Hollandus was speaking "with his children".

While Hollandus works do appear to be very straight forward, and I believed only a few weeks ago that they were, I see now that his allegory and trickery is one of the best, and because he does it so well that he continually tricks you back into thinking that he is teaching you a true process, but really, he is only teaching those who perceive the inner meaning, as with usual alchemical text.

black
03-15-2017, 03:52 AM
Hi Mr. Mixer

Have you read Parts 1 and Parts 2 of the Complete alchemical writings, vol. 4
of Isaac Hollandus.

If you haven't then I suggest that it may be a very good idea before you sell or buy
lab equipment. This can be very costly and time consuming.

Parts 1 and Parts 2 need to be read completely at least 2 or 3 times (as with all
Alchemic writings) just to get the basic understanding of the way that Hollandus
speaks to us. It is only a small volume to read !!!

After you have read it , then compare how you think about the process, to how
you think about it now... you may be very, very surprised as to how your
understanding can change very quickly.

I have found this exercise to be an excellent stepping stone in the Great Work.

elixirmixer
03-29-2017, 01:34 AM
Mr. Black.

I'm confused again.

This 'hand of the philosophers', while he does seem to make it very clear that it is vital for one to understand, Hollandus doesn't seem to use any of the salts in his Vegetable work!?

I'm reading, and re-reading. I have a clear picture in my head about what I want to achieve, but I do not intend to use any of the salts from the hand.

Does that mean that I'm oblivious to what he is talking about? Or is the hand used only for the Magnus?

elixirmixer
03-29-2017, 01:36 AM
And again, he raves on about a whole section about urine, but I know that he is not talking about urine, alas, I do not know the subject that he is talking about..

elixirmixer
04-10-2017, 10:02 PM
@ Z oK

I believe this is the appropriate place to discuss our hollandus work, considering that there is already a different kind of spagyrical stone as we know, and that ours is better ;)

I noticed in the non-solvent thread, that you mentioned the "stinking red oil" this makes me consider that perhaps you are using pyro-distillation on your plant matter.

And I will ask.... Why?

I am about to order my new set up today if I have the balls to spend that much money, just so that I can perform this entire work WITHOUT any heat over 37.5 degrees, except for the final calcination of all feces.

I worry, that a pyro distillation does not allow all of our elements to return back into a unified whole, hollandus' reasoning is that the 'three spirits' vacate and that they are the key to recombination.

Have you, Z oK, created a complete stone using these methods? Would love to chat with someone who is studying Hollandus.

I'm ordering a big 5 litre domed reort, to assist sweating out all of the mercury without damaging the spirits. Also, to assist in gently coagulating my stone.

I feel (IMO) that the pyro distillation is the false turn down this path. That, if we truly are to preserve the delicate Spiritus Anima, then we must be exceedingly gentle.

My method, when it brings, will look something like this:

Take assorted parts of grapevine, do not crush or maim the plant, only split any grapes you use to release their waters during your distillation. Place in 2 litre boiling flask. I'm using a very expensive flanged setup so that I could have very large joints and support the weight of the large retort. Reason being, the large your joint sizes the easier the sweating will progress.

I will set this at either 37.5 or 40 degrees, not sure yet, will have to see how we progress at 37.5 first. Leave this for as log as it takes, a day, maybe three, until ALL of your humidity has left the boiling flask and been condensed.

Now we have our philosophical plant mercury. It is philosophical, because it is taken naturally from the plant without violence, we have lost nothing at all. All things are within our hermetic vessel.

Now, with a well dried plant matter, we crush it up, blend it, whatever you feel is best to get it down to a powder.

Using our plant mercury, we incubate the two for some days. We then filter and allow this to digest until we see all feces drop out and then we filter again an store ready fr recombination later.

We have to repeatedly use fresh mercury to slowly draw out the fire element. It's red colour.

When we have performed these extractions to the best of our ability we then calcine our earth. Extract our salts, and recombine all our extractions with their salt, and then, once again, we very gentle coagulate the entire lot into a hard ruby red mass that melts like wax.

I hope.

That's the plan anyway.

Feel free to share your method, or not, either way, I find this stuff exciting.:o

Schmuldvich
04-11-2017, 02:08 AM
I feel (IMO) that the pyro distillation is the false turn down this path. That, if we truly are to preserve the delicate Spiritus Anima, then we must be exceedingly gentle.

YES!!!








"The fire must be light, mild, and moist, like that of a hen brooding over her eggs, and it must be sustained in such a manner that it will cook without burning the aerial fruits."


"It should not be a coal or a wood fire, but a clear and pellucid heat, like that of the Sun itself—a gentle and even warmth. Growing fruit must not be exposed to too much heat, or else it is withered, and shrivelled up, and is never brought to perfection."


"The very root of this knowledge is to act with care and perception at the time of composition, avoiding all haste and error, and watching patiently day and night for fixation. It unites and joins all the various substances and properties into one body, it being only necessary to apply to them a gentle heat the long continues at the same degree, neither increasing nor decreasing."


"The fire of the first Degree, that is of Solution, and Putrefaction, ought to be so weak, that Nothing Ascend of the nature to be Sublimed, and so a gentle fire gives Mercury Ingresse into the body, when with a strong one all is destroyed."


"Dear Son, be careful in the work of Putrefaction or Destruction, which is to be performed in a gentle heat."


"This must the Artist know if he will find The narrow way that God to Nature gave Is boil, boil, boil if fruit thou seek to have And this by seething doth dissolve congeal. Learn well this lesson if thou wilt prevail And Patience have with thy continuance Lest too sharp fire cause much grievance Yet as the Infant food first is weak But stronger as he grows and learns to speak. So at the first our work has easy fire, And is increased as ripeness doth require."


All the Sages are in agreement on this point and so many people miss it!

z0 K
04-11-2017, 03:54 PM
Well then take those musings to the lab and see what you get for the effort. Until then it is just wind and words.

Schmuldvich
04-11-2017, 06:26 PM
Well then take those musings to the lab and see what you get for the effort. Until then it is just wind and words.

How do you suggest operating the heat when preparing things Alchemically, z0 K?


Do you ever advocate using heat over 120F? If so, when?


In your opinion, what temperatures work best for what stages?

JDP
04-11-2017, 10:13 PM
How do you suggest operating the heat when preparing things Alchemically, z0 K?


Do you ever advocate using heat over 120F? If so, when?


In your opinion, what temperatures work best for what stages?

The comments you quoted regarding the carefully controlled milder heats (usually employed by means of water/sand/ash baths) is for a stage in the preparation of the Stone/Elixir where the "earth" or "sulphur" is being slowly "cooked" with the secret solvent or "water/mercury" until both radically unite and coagulate into the Stone/Elixir, and thus why milder temperatures are employed. But that does not tell you anything regarding the previous preparatory stages, where stronger temperatures are also used.

z0 K
04-11-2017, 10:45 PM
How do you suggest operating the heat when preparing things Alchemically, z0 K?


Do you ever advocate using heat over 120F? If so, when?


In your opinion, what temperatures work best for what stages?

You posted several quotes along with agreeing with EM’s opinion that pyro distillation is a false turn on the path to making a plant stone following Hollandus. I suggest both of you read Hollandus’ vegetable operas to find out how may Quintessence processes he discusses in detail. Then decide which one you think you might like to attempt. Then make an outline of the steps you think are involved. Decide what equipment you will need (ask questions if nessary) and get it together.

I use heat from around 120F up to 1400F depending upon what I’m after. Part of your plan for your Hollandus lab work should be to identify the stages Hollandus teaches in the vegetable work and incorporate them into your outline for the procedures.

You said, “All the sages are in agreement on this point and so many people miss it!” as a remark at the end of the several quotes you posted. Those quotes are not sourced to authors. So I do not know what other procedures they employed. If the assumption is that one never uses temps above a BM in making a plant stone then the result will be very disappointing. See for yourself.

Those quotes all seem to refer to the processes of joining the previously extracted and purified elements obtained from herbs.

JDP
04-11-2017, 11:14 PM
You posted several quotes along with agreeing with EM’s opinion that pyro distillation is a false turn on the path to making a plant stone following Hollandus. I suggest both of you read Hollandus’ vegetable operas to find out how may Quintessence processes he discusses in detail. Then decide which one you think you might like to attempt. Then make an outline of the steps you think are involved. Decide what equipment you will need (ask questions if nessary) and get it together.

I use heat from around 120F up to 1400F depending upon what I’m after. Part of your plan for your Hollandus lab work should be to identify the stages Hollandus teaches in the vegetable work and incorporate them into your outline for the procedures.

You said, “All the sages are in agreement on this point and so many people miss it!” as a remark at the end of the several quotes you posted. Those quotes are not sourced to authors. So I do not know what other procedures they employed. If the assumption is that one never uses temps above a BM in making a plant stone then the result will be very disappointing. See for yourself.

Those quotes all seem to refer to the processes of joining the previously extracted and purified elements obtained from herbs.

All the passages he quoted can be easily sourced. In order of appearance, they are from the following texts: "The words of Father Aristeus to his son", the "Philosophical Summary" attributed to Nicholas Flamel, the alchemical dialogue between the hermit Morienus and prince Khalid, "Saturninus" as quoted in the collection of alchemical quotes called "Zoroaster's Cave", Alanus as quoted in the treatise "Hydropyrographum Hermeticum", and a text by Edward Nowell.

All of these quotes refer to the "coction" of the Stone/Elixir, where milder temperatures are used. That, however, doesn't say anything regarding the previous stages, where stronger temperatures are also used during the preparations of the secret solvent/water/mercury and the earth/sulphur, which many authors suppress, not even saying a single word about that and just go ahead and misleadingly describe the coction of the Stone directly as if this was the entire work; the authors who usually employ this nefarious and dishonest tactic are usually also the ones who love misleading others into seeking "one matter only" (and usually also "one vessel only" and "one furnace only") which supposedly will allow them to make the Stone/Elixir. This type of writers had no regard or respect for the time and money of others and did not hesitate one second about sending people into wild goose chases by manipulating and mutilating information like this. Truly despicable. If there really is such a thing as a "Divine Justice", these types of alchemists should be burning in Hell (if such a place also really exists) for all the loses and suffering they caused to countless people with such misleading tactics.

Schmuldvich
04-12-2017, 01:00 AM
You posted several quotes along with agreeing with EM’s opinion that pyro distillation is a false turn on the path to making a plant stone following Hollandus.

I suggest both of you read Hollandus’ vegetable operas to find out how many Quintessence processes he discusses in detail. Then decide which one you think you might like to attempt. Part of your plan for your Hollandus lab work should be to identify the stages Hollandus teaches in the vegetable work and incorporate them into your outline for the procedures.

I use heat from around 120F up to 1400F depending upon what I’m after.

If the assumption is that one never uses temps above a BM in making a plant stone then the result will be very disappointing. See for yourself.

Thanks for the feedback! After watching your videos and reading what you post, your temperature range was something always in the back of my mind.

Hollandus is an author I am very familiar with. We disagree in the way we read the Texts so I am not sure if we could ever come to an agreement regarding what Hollandus meant with his words (for example, I do not believe he was speaking literally the majority of the time). Also, spagyrics or any other "plant stone" are none of my concern right now. It is the Philosopher's Stone I seek.

z0 K
04-12-2017, 01:26 AM
All the passages he quoted can be easily sourced. In order of appearance, they are from the following texts: "The words of Father Aristeus to his son", the "Philosophical Summary" attributed to Nicholas Flamel, the alchemical dialogue between the hermit Morienus and prince Khalid, "Saturninus" as quoted in the collection of alchemical quotes called "Zoroaster's Cave", Alanus as quoted in the treatise "Hydropyrographum Hermeticum", and a text by Edward Nowell.

All of these quotes refer to the "coction" of the Stone/Elixir, where milder temperatures are used. That, however, doesn't say anything regarding the previous stages, where stronger temperatures are also used during the preparations of the secret solvent/water/mercury and the earth/sulphur, which many authors suppress, not even saying a single word about that and just go ahead and misleadingly describe the coction of the Stone directly as if this was the entire work; the authors who usually employ this nefarious and dishonest tactic are usually also the ones who love misleading others into seeking "one matter only" (and usually also "one vessel only" and "one furnace only") which supposedly will allow them to make the Stone/Elixir. This type of writers had no regard or respect for the time and money of others and did not hesitate one second about sending people into wild goose chases by manipulating and mutilating information like this. Truly despicable. If there really is such a thing as a "Divine Justice", these types of alchemists should be burning in Hell (if such a place also really exists) for all the loses and suffering they caused to countless people with such misleading tactics.

Thanks for the sources of the quotes.

I’m done arguing with you about the one matter one vessel one furnace paradigm. The one matter is “life.” The one vessel is whatever contains it. The one furnace is whatever heat is needed to maintain it. Ripley was a mystic monk as well as an adviser to the King. Can you make any sense of his scroll without analogical symbolism?

Those old authors loved to hide information by screwing with your mind. They didn’t have TV or the internet to entertain themselves. They did have another virtual grid to utilize better than the internet: their own mind fields which they lit fabulously with philosophical nosturms. For me this is no speculation.

The protocols to make a plant stone require one to make philosophical mercury/water and find a volatile spirit then join them with pure fixed earth/salt of the plant. This process I’m quite familiar with. The produce is mind opening.

Then numerous possibilities arise when one wishes to take that life in the plant mercury into the metallic realm. This is where Weidenfeld’s compendium could be of help. On the other hand is the possibility that one has to find the metallic “life” principle and draw it out in a similar manner as with plants and animals. This is the long winding road.

Then again perhaps these manipulations of organic source material are presenting isotopes of certain elements containing extra neutrons with opportunities to rid themselves of the burdensome neutrons. The loose neutrons get involved in a tug of war with other elements complexing in redox and they are undone into protons and electrons that get involved in new structures for our delight.

JDP
04-12-2017, 05:07 AM
Thanks for the sources of the quotes.

I’m done arguing with you about the one matter one vessel one furnace paradigm. The one matter is “life.” The one vessel is whatever contains it. The one furnace is whatever heat is needed to maintain it. Ripley was a mystic monk as well as an adviser to the King. Can you make any sense of his scroll without analogical symbolism?

Those old authors loved to hide information by screwing with your mind. They didn’t have TV or the internet to entertain themselves. They did have another virtual grid to utilize better than the internet: their own mind fields which they lit fabulously with philosophical nosturms. For me this is no speculation.

The protocols to make a plant stone require one to make philosophical mercury/water and find a volatile spirit then join them with pure fixed earth/salt of the plant. This process I’m quite familiar with. The produce is mind opening.

Then numerous possibilities arise when one wishes to take that life in the plant mercury into the metallic realm. This is where Weidenfeld’s compendium could be of help. On the other hand is the possibility that one has to find the metallic “life” principle and draw it out in a similar manner as with plants and animals. This is the long winding road.

Then again perhaps these manipulations of organic source material are presenting isotopes of certain elements containing extra neutrons with opportunities to rid themselves of the burdensome neutrons. The loose neutrons get involved in a tug of war with other elements complexing in redox and they are undone into protons and electrons that get involved in new structures for our delight.

If that is your understanding of what the "one matter, one vessel, one furnace" counsel actually means, then you are pretty much admitting that many alchemists were indeed being purposefully deceptive. Your explanation is certainly not the way they wanted others to understand such strange "advice". They knew that most people reading them were going to take these statements at face value, as they are written, and literally look for one substance, put it inside one flask, and place it on one furnace and then proceed to heat it to see what happened. Of course this type of malicious alchemists had the last laugh at the expense of their victims, because by doing that no one will ever succeed in making the Stone/Elixir.

Since you mention Ripley, that "mystic monk" also wrote very interesting things, like this semi-allegorized description of some of the reactions employed in making the Stone (page 374):

https://archive.org/stream/theatrumchemicum00ashm#page/374/mode/2up/search/the+vision

I wonder how many people who read such descriptions in alchemical texts have actually seen them or anything similar to them. I suspect that only very few have. He is in fact describing some things quite well here, like the "swelling" of the "toad", how it blackens, the "poisoned sweat" and "humor" that comes out of it, etc. I can tell you that I have seen very similar things with my own two eyes, brought about by the work of my own two hands, so to me there is nothing remotely "impossible" or "deceptive" in these descriptions (notice that Ripley is still hiding the real names of the substances employed, so he has no qualms about describing the reactions quite clearly; he knew that only a minority of his readers, the most empirically experienced among them, would take advantage of such descriptions.) These empirical descriptions (sometimes embellished by allegorical elements, like this fairy tale about the "toad" in Ripley's "Vision") are in fact the most valuable things in alchemical texts. They will serve as a true guide for the experienced seeker to figure out what substances and reactions will put him on the right track. On the other hand, theoretical discourses about the four "elements", the two or three "principles", how metals/minerals are supposedly generated inside the bowels of the Earth, "one matter only", "one vessel only", "one furnace only", "Divine Permission/Assitance/Gifts", "Spiritus Mundi", "Follow Nature" and the like fanciful speculative or even outright deliberately false things will in fact only succeed in leading you astray. You will never get anywhere with such conjectures, assumptions or misleading statements for which the alchemists who proposed them had no shred of proof whatsoever. Those are the least valuable and least interesting things in their texts, yet incredibly enough it seems to be what attracts the majority of people to them. Go figure!

Kiorionis
04-12-2017, 12:15 PM
Then numerous possibilities arise when one wishes to take that life in the plant mercury into the metallic realm. This is where Weidenfeld’s compendium could be of help. On the other hand is the possibility that one has to find the metallic “life” principle and draw it out in a similar manner as with plants and animals. This is the long winding road.

I did a little searching around and couldn't find 'Weidenfeld's compendium' mentioned anywhere else. Do you happen to have a full title?

Andro
04-12-2017, 12:20 PM
I did a little searching around and couldn't find 'Weidenfeld's compendium' mentioned anywhere else. Do you happen to have a full title?

Perhaps he is referring to THIS (http://www.abardoncompanion.de/Alex/Weidenfeld.pdf).

z0 K
04-12-2017, 02:46 PM
Perhaps he is referring to THIS (http://www.abardoncompanion.de/Alex/Weidenfeld.pdf).

Yes excuse me, Wiedenfeld's Secrets of the Adepts is a compendium of menstrum recipes featuring works by Lull and Ripley, Hollandus and others.

z0 K
04-12-2017, 06:55 PM
If that is your understanding of what the "one matter, one vessel, one furnace" counsel actually means, then you are pretty much admitting that many alchemists were indeed being purposefully deceptive. Your explanation is certainly not the way they wanted others to understand such strange "advice". They knew that most people reading them were going to take these statements at face value, as they are written, and literally look for one substance, put it inside one flask, and place it on one furnace and then proceed to heat it to see what happened. Of course this type of malicious alchemists had the last laugh at the expense of their victims, because by doing that no one will ever succeed in making the Stone/Elixir.

Since you mention Ripley, that "mystic monk" also wrote very interesting things, like this semi-allegorized description of some of the reactions employed in making the Stone (page 374):

https://archive.org/stream/theatrumchemicum00ashm#page/374/mode/2up/search/the+vision


I keep trying to expose elements of alchemy that you do not entertain. My explanation is influenced by Ripley’s works. Ripley and other adepts often said they do not write for the sophists or the common and vulgar but for their brothers in the Art. They often warn not to take their sayings superficially or literally.

There is the story of how the king had one of Ripley’s colleagues arrested and imprisoned and tortured to force him to give up his stone. He was able to toss the powder into the privy shitter before they caught him. Ripley found out and got him released. The king had become decadent and lost the throne after that and was forced into exile. Ripley went with him to France. The king regained his manners in exile and Ripley raised (financed) an army for his return. Upon the king’s triumphant return Ripley commissioned the scrolls to be made symbolizing the alchemical process of the Stone. Copies were made after Ripley had departed. (Reference: Arthurian Myths and Alchemy: the Kingship of Edward IV, by Jonathan Hughes)

It appears that in England the clergy had an esoteric alchemical element going back to St Dunstan concerning the Stone/Elixir. After Ripley Dee was able to gain access to many old abbeys where he found alchemical documents which he had copied and added to his library. One of those old manuscripts was The Book of St. Dunstan. Ripley had a copy before Dee. Ripley’s was titled Key to the Golden Gate.


I wonder how many people who read such descriptions in alchemical texts have actually seen them or anything similar to them. I suspect that only very few have. He is in fact describing some things quite well here, like the "swelling" of the "toad", how it blackens, the "poisoned sweat" and "humor" that comes out of it, etc. I can tell you that I have seen very similar things with my own two eyes, brought about by the work of my own two hands, so to me there is nothing remotely "impossible" or "deceptive" in these descriptions (notice that Ripley is still hiding the real names of the substances employed, so he has no qualms about describing the reactions quite clearly; he knew that only a minority of his readers, the most empirically experienced among them, would take advantage of such descriptions.) These empirical descriptions (sometimes embellished by allegorical elements, like this fairy tale about the "toad" in Ripley's "Vision") are in fact the most valuable things in alchemical texts. They will serve as a true guide for the experienced seeker to figure out what substances and reactions will put him on the right track.

Yes Ripley’s ruddy toad. I have compounded it myself, swelling as it is exposed to the air and sweating red blood pH 14. The vapors will burn your eyes. I do believe the Toad is the gateway to the Grand Elixir. I took the Toad onward to the plant stone because I compounded it with purified plant calx not heavy metal calx.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHEJ8Ws_rCE&feature=youtu.be


On the other hand, theoretical discourses about the four "elements", the two or three "principles", how metals/minerals are supposedly generated inside the bowels of the Earth, "one matter only", "one vessel only", "one furnace only", "Divine Permission/Assitance/Gifts", "Spiritus Mundi", "Follow Nature" and the like fanciful speculative or even outright deliberately false things will in fact only succeed in leading you astray. You will never get anywhere with such conjectures, assumptions or misleading statements for which the alchemists who proposed them had no shred of proof whatsoever. Those are the least valuable and least interesting things in their texts, yet incredibly enough it seems to be what attracts the majority of people to them. Go figure!

http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2009/01/ripley-scroll.html

If you study the scroll drawings you see that the toad is in the dragons flaming mouth and blood is squirting out of the toad. Above that you see a column in the center of the mercurial bath. The elements in the mercury bath are depicted in the four vases at the corners and the three characters in the bath. One character is Anima and is radiating fire from a ring of dark cloud material; the other is Spiritus and has wings indicating its volatility. The central character is the Corpus holding the column center. Those elements represent substances in the bath.

That column is supporting a second bath above it. There a grape vine is growing around the column that has become a tree. Mercury and sulfur (sun and moon) are in the bath eating grapes off the vine indicating that is their source of life. Spiritus and Anima have been transformed and are now on the tree on the trunk between the grapes and the where the tree branches. So mercury and sulfur get their life from the Spirit and Soul contained in the starting material. As you can see Spiritus has lost her wings (the feathers are floating all around the scene) and grown a green tail that is entwined with the tree branches and green growing leaves. She has become fixed into the growing tree representing the Stone. Spiritus in the Ripley scroll is a representation of Spiritus Mundi that is Azoth in the dragon fire which then condenses into armoniac. Seven monks are working turning the wheel seven times, seven distillations to remove the feces.

All of the alchemical operations are depicted in the scroll. I have seen all of the signs depicted in the scroll in my lab work operating on various forms of biomass including mineralized biomass. Nowhere in the scroll is any outside matter added to the vertical operations in the stages of the column. The work is being performed upon one thing depicted as a sphere with green dragon wings. The matter has wings so it must fly or rise. Above it is the green dragon holding three crescent shaped things, red, white and black in its mouth that are also seen in the sphere. Blood is pouring out of the dragon’s belly into the sphere where we find the red the white and the black in a pool of water. That is what you get when you dry distill biomass.

Kiorionis
04-12-2017, 09:56 PM
Thanks to the both of you.

Also, sweet music in that video ;)

zoas23
04-12-2017, 11:21 PM
I keep trying to expose elements of alchemy that you do not entertain. My explanation is influenced by Ripley’s works. Ripley and other adepts often said they do not write for the sophists or the common and vulgar but for their brothers in the Art.

Very glad to see you talking about the Ripley scroll!!!! For some reason it is the "text" that most people decide to avoid, but I love it.

I wanted to use the opportunity to ask you a simple question about it... Do you see there ONE path that begins in the upper part and is "developed" as the roll unfolds? Or do you see FOUR alternative ways of doing the same thing rather than an "ongoing process"?

My interpretation had always been the first... ONE operation explained from top to bottom of the scroll... but quite recently I began to have my doubts and consider the chance that maybe hs is showing 4 ways (4 alternatives). What do you think?

z0 K
04-13-2017, 07:07 PM
Very glad to see you talking about the Ripley scroll!!!! For some reason it is the "text" that most people decide to avoid, but I love it.

I wanted to use the opportunity to ask you a simple question about it... Do you see there ONE path that begins in the upper part and is "developed" as the roll unfolds? Or do you see FOUR alternative ways of doing the same thing rather than an "ongoing process"?

My interpretation had always been the first... ONE operation explained from top to bottom of the scroll... but quite recently I began to have my doubts and consider the chance that maybe hs is showing 4 ways (4 alternatives). What do you think?

Ripley is my favorite alchemist to reveal the secrets of the Philosophy. He subscribes to the paradigm of the alchemical dragon and lion. That is part of an English tradition that also used rhyme to express the alchemical philosophy. I like that alchemical poetry so I enjoy reading Ripley’s scroll process in rhyme and his Compound of Alchemy too.

I see the scroll as displaying a process that starts at the bottom for the symbolic artwork. The alchemist (Ripley) starts out with his plans (scroll on the staff) and his materials in the sack. We don’t know what is in the sack. I suggest it is his starting matter for the lab work. His hand gestures above to the winged globe. The winged globe with mounted green dragon is symbolic of the entire work concluding with the three principles conjoined in a sphere radiating energy.

The sphere and its contents represent what Ripley has in his bag. We see in the drawings that blood of the dragon is in the sphere. It is falling in drops that descend into a white material surrounded by a black matter all of which are in a pool of water. The top of the sphere shows that the sphere is sealed and fortified. In the dragon’s mouth are the three things from the sphere only now they have been tooled into equal crescents that open at the top where we find the three things fixed together with chains. That represents the conjoined Stone under the banner in the scroll.

The foundation of this scene is the color green. According to Ripley and Dunstan green represents the ability to grow attributed to Life. The dragon’s wings are fixed to the sphere. What does a dragon do? It breathes fire and destroys things yet takes treasures back to its cave. The dragon’s cave is in the earth of course. Symbolically Ripley is saying that he put his matter into a vessel and used fire to cause the matter to rise as if it had wings. He sealed his vessel so nothing could escape probably in a horizontal distillation train. In the aftermath of the dragon’s breath he found three things red, white and black.

Above the banner of the green dragon winged earth sequence is a new foundation where we see the Bird of Hermes standing on a brown sphere being rained upon by a dark cloud being heated by the sun. This is the most secret part of the work. The matter is being heated to sweating temperature in order to coax the Bird of Hermes out of the crude matter after the initial dragon burn. That is the secret salt.

The next scene is about purification of the elements obtained from the process symbolized in the lower scenes. The four elements and the three principles in a bath (solution) purified by rectification.

The top scene is the whole process of the Stone depicted in one vessel over one fire. In the lower half of the vessel is a brown matter similar in appearance to the brown sphere in the scene second from the bottom. What is going on in the vessel is the rise and fall of the toad’s blood. The toad is the raw stone compounded from the materials derived from the green dragon burn and the bird sweating. The two baths are for the toad. In the first his blood is purified. In the second he is fed.

That’s what I think:)

Schmuldvich
04-13-2017, 08:06 PM
Nice analysis, z0 K! Thanks for sharing!

Which version (https://philosophiauniversalis.com/alchemical-images/the-ripley-scrowle/) of the scroll is your favorite to study?

z0 K
04-13-2017, 08:20 PM
Nice analysis, z0 K! Thanks for sharing!

Which version (https://philosophiauniversalis.com/alchemical-images/the-ripley-scrowle/) of the scroll is your favorite to study?

This is my favorite:
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/200...ey-scroll.html

It is the one I used for the discussion.

Schmuldvich
04-13-2017, 08:38 PM
This is my favorite:
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/200...ey-scroll.html

It is the one I used for the discussion.


Your link is bad (http://m.imgur.com/FGdA8RW). I tried the full version of the site too and that did not work either. Is it any of the ones I listed, or is there another version floating out there that I am unaware of?

elixirmixer
04-13-2017, 09:56 PM
You people are so rude.

I start all these epic threads, you'z come on here, get inspired, go off tract, and usually without every properly addressing the subject matter that I'm F'ing talking about.

How does the Ripley Scroll belong here?

I started a "Alchemical Fairytales" thread, go talk toads and dragons over there.

This is Hollands style vegetable stones or other alchemically prepared vegetable stone: Please and Thankyou.

Schmuldvich
04-13-2017, 10:06 PM
This is Hollands style vegetable stones or other alchemically prepared vegetable stone: Please and Thankyou.


Have you made any more progress with studies or endeavors?

z0 K
04-13-2017, 10:42 PM
Your link is bad (http://m.imgur.com/FGdA8RW). I tried the full version of the site too and that did not work either. Is it any of the ones I listed, or is there another version floating out there that I am unaware of?

Strange the link was good earlier today. My favorite version of the scroll is Mellon MS 41, Beinecke Library:

https://www.compendiumnaturalis.net/the-ripley-scrolls/

Interesting, Inner Garden Alchemy website used to have really nice large copies of three scrolls. Now those pages are gone.

JDP
04-13-2017, 10:49 PM
Your link is bad (http://m.imgur.com/FGdA8RW). I tried the full version of the site too and that did not work either. Is it any of the ones I listed, or is there another version floating out there that I am unaware of?

You can find full scans of 3 versions of Ripley's Scroll here:

https://www.compendiumnaturalis.net/the-ripley-scrolls/

Notice that the one in the middle (MS. Ash. Rolls 53, Bodleian Library) is incomplete. The scribe who made it apparently did not have time to finish it.

Awani
04-13-2017, 11:09 PM
I started a "Alchemical Fairytales" thread, go talk toads and dragons over there.

If things become off-topic for some reason moderators will create a spin-off thread. If this does not happen right away (because we are busy with other aspects of living our lives) you can always PM a mod (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showgroups.php) an ask for this.

I archived the "Alchemical Fairytales" thread, because it contains nothing, except a demand for people to start posting about a specific topic.

I have not followed this thread at all, so if another mod feels there should be a spin-off then please create one (when you have the time). Thank you.

:cool:

Kiorionis
04-13-2017, 11:32 PM
A spin-off thread has been created concerning Electrons, Protons, and Neutrons (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5224-Electrons-Protons-and-Neutrons)

As for the Ripley Scroll, it seems some members feel there is a connection to the Hollandus work in theory. But if you'd like it moved to a spin-off, it's no problem.

elixirmixer
09-23-2017, 11:22 PM
Have you made any more progress with studies or endeavors?

I created Spiritus Vini last night. I have a large amount of my solvent, much more than I expected to have. I have a lot of plant matter to process and it is very time consuming because of the gentle process im using.

I really hope to finish the plant stone and submit my essay over the next 14 days. I've decided to use fresh coriander this time, because its a nice soft plant that I'm hoping will yield its redness in a small amount of time. (hoping)

black
09-24-2017, 01:00 AM
I created Spiritus Vini last night. I have a large amount of my solvent, much more than I expected to have. I have a lot of plant matter to process and it is very time consuming because of the gentle process im using.

I really hope to finish the plant stone and submit my essay over the next 14 days. I've decided to use fresh coriander this time, because its a nice soft plant that I'm hoping will yield its redness in a small amount of time. (hoping)

Hi Mr. Mixer

Is the Spiritus Vini that you are using alcohol (ethanol) ???

Or perhaps something very special ?

elixirmixer
09-24-2017, 02:27 AM
No, not alcohol.

Something quite special. I don't have very much though...

elixirmixer
09-24-2017, 02:28 AM
My Spiritus Vini and my Solvent are two different things (altho very similar) My spiritus vini will be used only for the volatilising of the salts.