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Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 11:02 AM
Example talisman ritual:

1. Lesser Bannishing Ritual of the Pentagram

2. Lesser Hexagram Ritual (or Star Sapphire)

3. Trace invoking planetary Hexagram over talisman the following number of times; Saturn 3, Jupiter 4, Mars 5, Sol 6, Venus 7, Mercury 8, Luna 9. As Hexagram is visualised being inscribed in the air above the talisman say appropriate kabbalistic Divine name. E.g for Saturn YHVH ALHIM ( Yahweh El-oh-heem). Visualise Hexagram using kabbalistic 'queen' scale colours: Saturn Black, Jupiter bright blue, Mars bright red, Sol yellow, Venus green, Mercury Orange, Luna purple.

4. Now trace the Hexagram actualy on the talisman visualising it and saying the Divine name in the same way as point 3 above.

5. Invocation of Archangel of planet e.g. In the name of YHVH ELOHEEM I call on you Cassiel to empower this talisman to......

6. Call on order of angels e.g. In the name of YHVH ALHIM and the Archangel Cassiel I call on the Aralim to .......

7. Link to talisman e.g. A drop of saliva added to it, for Saturn (lead) wrap in black silk and perform Lesser Bannishing of Pentagram.

8. Record thoughts in diary.

Apart from the technical stuff and the visualisation the vital thing is to 'inflame your heart with prayer' as it is mentioned in the Abramelin grimiore.

You may feel energised and decide to do more rituals straight away do not do this. One chap I knew did 4 of these types of rituals in 3 days and got very hyper. He crashed for 24 hours when he woke up he had rainbow urine and a totally black tongue. He went to the std clinic but was found to be completely clear, it frightened him though so just the one in a week!

The actual talisman itself for Saturn keep simple eg: equilateral triangle shape, white card black ink. Symbol of Saturn on one side, word in english SATURN on other side, keep wrapped in black silk. When I was incubating the oil I put the silk, then the talisman touching the jar, under the jar then wrapped it all in kitchen foil to keep it dark. A lot of experienced Alchemists would perhaps see no point in doing any of the above which is obviously a perfectly fair opinion.

Doing this on a Saturday in the planetary hour of Saturn with the moon waxing is optimal, Capricorn is ruled by a Saturn I think so that would be a favourable month. Attributions, planetary hours etc for all the 'classical' planets are easily obtainable on-line.

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 12:19 PM
One more question... what is the purpose of this ritual?

Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 12:27 PM
Hmmm......

Are you teasing me elixirmixer?

In ritual magic terms to produce a talisman that will express a planetary force in this case Saturn which relates to the metal; lead. Then this Saturnian energy will work with the Kerkrings menstruum (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4886-Lead-Acetate-oil-and-Kerkrings-menstruum) is my thinking.


--------------------------------------------

Kiorionis
11-17-2016, 01:43 PM
Are you using lead metal for the talisman, or paper and black ink?

Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 05:05 PM
In this basic example I suggest white card and black ink. The lead is from the Cerrusite that I worked with in the other thread. Personally I don't feel it is necassary to use the actual metals relating to the planets for talismans.

Kiorionis
11-17-2016, 07:04 PM
Curious. Thanks.

So this basic example is not the one you use?

Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 09:44 PM
These days I would do an electromagnetic volt.

The thing that brought me to Alchemy was the late Francis King wrote An Alchemical Ritual in the Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic. It involves evoking an Olympic spirit into the materia between various lab processes. I was particularly impressed by the diagnostic method specified in Z2; evoke to check the appearance of the elemental of the materia you are working with to asses progress. People often criticise GD stuff but it always seems to contain original methodology. Nowhere else have I read about a practical use for evocation with Alchemy. We did the Francis King procedure but the final product faded after 2 weeks, we didn't know how to fix it because we knew very little about Alchemy. It was an involved and lengthy procedure.

You can see the complete GD on the grimoirz website the piece I refer to is in volume 8. It would be interesting to do the Francis King process alongside the acetate dry distillation approach for example.

elixirmixer
11-17-2016, 10:09 PM
No, not teasing axis, just curious. Although i have read my fair share of of kabalist theurgy and some alester crowly stuff ect... i have tried performing the pentagram and hexagram rituals ect... but i just kind of ... well... dont get it... i havent had a teacher, and all the book i read just go on and on but hardly ever have much practical guidance..... but you've just touched on something pretty cool...

I have heard of some people from the R+C, summoning an Olympic spirit before. Sounded pretty scary...

How could I, a complete novice in practical magic, invoke a spirit, with measurable effects, SAFTELY??

Probably one of the biggest reasons that I haven't practise much of this kind of stuff is because im aware of how dangerous it can be...

BUT I REALLY WANT TO LEARN!!

So... let me get this straight then, this talismanic magic is to harness the intellectual properties of saturn and place it in the flask??

Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 10:36 PM
I would not like to say when a person can perform evocation. For myself it was 15 years after I started magical work before I finally achieved evocation successfully. Some people doubtless achieve it more rapidly. Dion Fortune wrote: Do not call up what you cannot put down.

The basic talisman method I have suggested requires merely the Pentagram and Hexagram rituals. The vibratory formula of the middle pillar technique would enhance the whole thing.

Most Alchemists on this forum seem not to do ritual magic, I am a magician who has come to Alchemy seeing it as part of the same Hermeticism but I do not assume my approach is the most common.

zoas23
11-17-2016, 10:38 PM
How could I, a complete novice in practical magic, invoke a spirit, with measurable effects, SAFTELY???

You can't. I would not suggest to anyone to BEGIN his magical practices with Planetary Talismans, even if what Axis said is correct (I would use the invoking pentagram and hexagram, not the banishing ones as to open... and close with the banishing version of both... and I would use the proper Hebrew name - שבתאי - instead of the English name, but those are minor details, the procedure is correct).

It's not "incredibly advanced", but it's certainly not the first thing to try...

The works with the Olympic spirits are completely different.


Most Alchemists on this forum seem not to do ritual magic, I am a magician who has come to Alchemy seeing it as part of the same Hermeticism but I do not assume my approach is the most common.

There's probably other ones too. :p

Axismundi000
11-17-2016, 10:57 PM
Zoas23 my understanding at the time of writing the Talisman method was that the Pentagram rituals at least had been achieved by elixirmixer. I do not presume to tell other people what to do and I believe I made the dangers clear enough (rainbow urine, black tongue, post ritual mania and anxiety).

If people ask me something I will tell them what I know.

zoas23
11-18-2016, 06:58 AM
Zoas23 my understanding at the time of writing the Talisman method was that the Pentagram rituals at least had been achieved by elixirmixer. I do not presume to tell other people what to do and I believe I made the dangers clear enough (rainbow urine, black tongue, post ritual mania and anxiety).

If people ask me something I will tell them what I know.

Did you see this question?

So... let me get this straight then, this talismanic magic is to harness the intellectual properties of saturn and place it in the flask??

by reading your description, Axis, I get that you have a reasonable understanding of what you are doing... and magic is ALL about understanding what you are doing.

A person who asks what is the Talisman for doesn't understand the concepts involved here. Thus I discourage the idea of inciting others to perform something they don't perfectly understand... for the result is often quite similar to this: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4960-Help&p=45386#post45386

Hmmm... my girlfriend is an advanced black belt in several martial arts. She can break a solid piece of wood with a punch with her bare hands. If I try to do such thing, I won't break the wood, but my hand. There are no super powers involved (my girlfriend doesn't have any super-power, neither do I)... She simply knows a technique that takes years to master (a technique that I don't know). You can't ask a person who practiced kung fu for a year to break a 15 cm thick piece of wood with a punch, the obvious result is that you will only show him a way to break his hand... and it's not because the person is not "enlightened", it is simply a technique and nothing else. ANYONE can do it, but it takes time and the logical thing to do is to begin with simple things. Asking what the talisman would do is a clear sign that the person (ElixirMixer in this case) is not ready YET to do something like that... which doesn't mean that he may not do it in the future, but it's not a good idea at all to make someone perform something that he doesn't perfectly understand.

Axismundi000
11-18-2016, 07:44 AM
A problem here is that a debate about a person could occur with them present but not seeming to participate so I will make my comments general to 'people'.

The gist of what you are saying zoas23 is that in your opinion sometimes people are not 'ready'. This I feel is unbelievably arrogant as well as completely impractical.

1. It is arrogant because you are judging that you are so spiritually advanced that you know on the basis of lines of text on a forum what spiritual maturity people may have..

2. It is impractical because there is so much info out there on the occult from contacting Angels to the joy of Satan, the idea of controlling info for some kind of public safety is absurd.

Within Hermetic stuff generally Alchemy is to an extent a remaining and fading bastion of this arrogant parochial occultism. The assertion is often made that you must have a teacher to progress in Alchemy. The same assertion was made before Israel Regardie, Aliester Crowley and Franz Bardon published magical methodology. As a relative newcomer to Alchemy I simply show my work and see what others choose to contribute. It is up to each individual for themselves to decide what they are 'ready' for in magic and I suspect also Alchemy because they are not discreet, separate disciplines, merely presented as such. We are all responsible for the consequences of our own actions. So if a person is shown wood chopping by a black belt and told this is a risky thing for a novice and then they try it and hurt themselves the responsibility lies with the novice because they were clearly warned. The only time this is not so is if a student - teacher relationship is formally established which I do not see occurring here, this is a general Alchemy discussion forum.

The demarcation between Alchemy and Magic is artificial. As was once explained to me there is nothing like a spirit giving you a swift wack to the head to illustrate the reality of these matters.

zoas23 I suspect you mean well however the potential for human folly is as great as it is for human inspiration. It is naive to think that by refusing to explain stuff you can control other people's actions for a positive outcome. This invariably leads to negative outcomes whereas if you explain and identify hazards they at least have a chance.

Axismundi000
11-18-2016, 07:58 AM
Zoas23 on a separate note what do you think of the GD Alchemical ritual by Francis King? Also the diagnostic method of evocation outlined in Z2 I have not seen that kind of thing elsewhere have you?

zoas23
11-18-2016, 09:12 AM
Zoas23 on a separate note what do you think of the GD Alchemical ritual by Francis King?

I don't really pay attention to authors that belong to the Stella Matutina or the Fraternity of the Inner Light... I strongly prefer other branches of the same Order. To be honest, I've only read a book by Francis King and I didn't like it at all. They are *simplified* versions of the GD (that's MY opinion).
A classical GD text I like about alchemy is "The Secret Fire" by Langford Garstin.


Also the diagnostic method of evocation outlined in Z2 I have not seen that kind of thing elsewhere have you?

It's very good and it has a strong influence of the original Elus CoŽn rite (I emphasize the word "original", for I have seen incredibly weird versions of the rite that involve things which are absolutely foreign to it -i.e, versions of the Elus CoŽn rite that use the Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram... which has absolutely no place there and makes no sense in that context).
I like the original GD, the Alpha Omega of Samuel & Moina Mathers in Paris... and of the "later branches", I like the Order of the Cubic Stone... I also have some appreciation for SOME of the ways of Waite.

Several things of the R.R. et A.C. have a strong influence of the Elus CoŽn rite, the Z2 evocation is one of them... the combination of the symbols in the 6=5 grade is also strongly influenced by the Elus CoŽn ways (though I never saw anyone publishing the combination ceremony; a.k.a. "the dance of the symbols").

Axismundi000
11-18-2016, 02:24 PM
I have English and Welsh but regrettably not French so unless you choose to explain more about this corpus of material zoas23 I will remain a uninformed. I will contribute something here which may be interesting.

With the Francis Alchemical Magic-Alchemy ritual sequence we did: When I evoked the elemental of the materia I observed the peacocks tale effect which I assumed was due to Alchemical change occurring in the materia. Bearing in mind that from completion, after about 2 weeks the final product simply reverted to just basic salt I wonder if I was observing something else. Although I do not usually have a rainbow effect when doing evocation this could be because I dont usually simply evoke the elemental of a piece of physical matter. So it could have been some kind of astral rainbow effect in part at least rather then the peacocks tail.

zoas23
11-18-2016, 05:15 PM
A problem here is that a debate about a person could occur with them present but not seeming to participate so I will make my comments general to 'people'.

The gist of what you are saying zoas23 is that in your opinion sometimes people are not 'ready'. This I feel is unbelievably arrogant as well as completely impractical.

1. It is arrogant because you are judging that you are so spiritually advanced that you know on the basis of lines of text on a forum what spiritual maturity people may have..

I am not "spiritually advanced", it's simply common sense... a person who asks what a Talisman is for is obviously not read for a planetary talisman. I talked about TECHNIQUE, not about a "spiritual evolution".


2. It is impractical because there is so much info out there on the occult from contacting Angels to the joy of Satan, the idea of controlling info for some kind of public safety is absurd.

There is also a lot of info on Kung Fu... my girlfriend (advanced black belt in Kung Fu and several other martial arts) can break a thick piece of wood with her hands and I can find (probably, I am assuming) all the information about the technique of how to do it. I never practiced Kung Fu in my life... and it's a matter of common sense to know that I do not have the technique to do such thing and it's not because I'm not "evolved" and my girlfriend is.



Within Hermetic stuff generally Alchemy is to an extent a remaining and fading bastion of this arrogant parochial occultism. The assertion is often made that you must have a teacher to progress in Alchemy. The same assertion was made before Israel Regardie, Aliester Crowley and Franz Bardon published magical methodology.

Go back to the idea of my girlfriend being able to break a piece of wood and the idea that I can't and explain me what's "patriarchal" about such thing.
Regardie, Crowley and Bardon did nothing new.... The Greek Magical Papyri are 1600 years old.... Agrippa published his books some 600 years ago... etc... etc.

I have no arrogance, I simply say that ANY subject that involves dangers should be practiced "step by step" and there's nothing mystical about it. Thus I prefer to talk about Karate of being an airplane pilot (I would not try to ride and airplane and see what happens if I have no idea of what I am doing, and I honestly have no idea about how to pilot an airplane... thus my chances of crashing against the ground are somehow high). LOL... Maybe it's arrogant to assume that I have this conception of magic as being related to have "super-powers", an idea that I absolutely reject (it belongs to Harry Potter, not to the actual practice as it is).

Axismundi000
11-18-2016, 06:23 PM
.......
Regardie, Crowley and Bardon did nothing new.... The Greek Magical Papyri are 1600 years old.... Agrippa published his books some 600 years ago... etc... etc. .......
There is a lot of material here that you have kindly posted zoas23 and worth reading. I am focussing on this small part because it is the one part of your post I can clearly disagree with in a clear unequivocal manner. Whilst what you say here is arguable with regard to GD material you are completely wrong most definately with respect to Bardon's material and to a large degree wrong with regard to Crowley's magical writings. Crowley integrated eastern yogic practices to run in tandem with ritual work. The methods and Sanskrit terminology Crowley uses are nowhere to be found in in Agrippa, or any greaco-Egyptian, demotic or Aramaic manuscripts/papyri I have heard about or read translations of. My wife has a divinity degree and she is unaware of any yogic stuff in such material including Akkadian (I didn't know she could read that, apparently she's a bit rusty though). zoas23 if you have found such references do please identify them to me. With regard to Bardon's material whilst he more or less ascribes to aggrippas elemental scheme the exercises and methods he gives are totally different to any western ceremonial magic or Greek papyri I am aware of so again please identify any similarities you know of because I do not.

The only eastern style stuff in what could be called western Hermeticism that I am aware of is the walewski manuscript which can be found on scribd.

So to summarise zoas23. Your assertion that Crowley and Bardon's material is nothing new and Greek papyri contain the same stuff or Agrippa shows it is totally wrong. Crowley's magical writings work magic and yoga in tandem, Bardon completely synthesises the two together and is un-paralleled in its quality of content. They have both published bodies of innovative and/or original magical methodology which are entirely missing from Agrippa or Greek papyri, or indeed any grimiores that I am familiar with.

zoas23
11-18-2016, 09:28 PM
O.K... we are somehow having the same discussion in public and in private.
As I clarified to you, I am not restricted to the Golden Dawn and I do not suggest anyone to practice a single system (but SEVERAL).

The "yoga" practices are also part of the corpus of the GD, though the sexual practices of Crowley are not... and, to be honest, I strongly disagree with them (this is not an ethical statement, I have no problems with sex and I am not ascetic). The problem that Crowley has was inherited by him from Kellner and Reuss and it's the same problem that I see in ElixirMixer (sexual diversity thread) about the males being "the sun" and the females being "the moon". I don't agree with the concepts (theory) of the IX* of the O.T.O. at all... and all this weird worship of the male phallus and the females being the recipient of the very sacred and godly males. The whole "Amrita" theory is something I strongly disagree with.

As for Crowley himself... I don't like "prophets" or currents which are based on worshipping a person (and Liber AL clearly states that Crowley is the Prophet).

Other than that, the fact that I have this problems with Crowley and Thelema doesn't mean that I have a problem with the fact that you like him, that's fine... I simply say that it's not a current that I would follow, not a suggestion about what YOU should do.

A debate about which current is better.... I won't get into it. It's one of those debates that mostly end up in a:
-YES!
-NO!
-YES!
-NO!

... so we can save time and skip that very very very boring debate.

As for the idea of "instructors", I honestly think it is better that way. I never knew a Kung Fu practitioner who taught was a "self-made" practitioner. This doesn't necessarily mean getting involved in an Order (though it's the most simple way). I like to demystify magic... and simple describe it as a "technique". Thus I can use a metaphor and state that my GF is very good in several martial arts and that if I wanted to learn a martial art, I can go to a classical martial arts school/gym/dojo/whatever... or ask her to teach me without the need of being involved with a "Kung Fu Order". Though I don't think I would go far by reading books about Tae-Kwon-Do and learning the technique from books (to be honest, I don't know ANYONE who did it that way)... and it's not because the instructor has any kind of "super-powers", but simply because he knows the technique, he can see if any of your movements is "wrong" and may damage you, etc.

But that's MY opinion and I have no problem is you have a different opinion... I do not pretend to be the owner of the ultimate truth.

Other than that, Crowley did disasters with the Eastern ideas (I used to have an Asian girlfriend, with an Asian culture, who used to laugh at the absolute misunderstaning of Crowley about the I-Ching).

When it comes to modern authors with "revolutionary" ideas, someone I appreciate a lot is Austin Spare (I suggest you to read his letters with K. Grant about Crowley and why he found him quite laughable).

Finally, I don't think there's any need to debate... we can have different ideas and that's fine... and this is the kind of debate that leads nowhere.

Going back to the original post, I would never suggest anyone to do a planetary Talisman before even understanding what a Talisman is... and this is not related to any kind of "spiritual evolution", but to the idea that most technical procedures (magic, kung-fu, being an airplane pilot, scuba diving, ballet dancing, etc) involve a "step by step" logic. There is nothing "spiritual" about this idea. I actually prefer to completely demystify the idea of what magic is and simply describe it as a "technique" which can be compared to any other technique like scuba-diving or whatever you prefer.

Axismundi000
11-18-2016, 11:30 PM
zoas23 apart from anything else I think it is just not practical to advise people what they should do or if they are 'ready'. There is so much info and technique freely available on line and in paperback print that it simply doesn't matter. The talisman outline I provided is available in numerous variations perhaps I was a little more usefully concise, nothing more. Similarly it doesn't really matter what you or I think about each other's praxis or preferred paradigm. If yours works for you zoas23 I am glad.

If you haven't looked at Francis King's Alchemical Ritual in complete GD it's only two pages long, I would recommend having a read of it. Tell me what you think.

zoas23
11-19-2016, 12:41 AM
zoas23 apart from anything else I think it is just not practical to advise people what they should do or if they are 'ready'. There is so much info and technique freely available on line and in paperback print that it simply doesn't matter. The talisman outline I provided is available in numerous variations perhaps I was a little more usefully concise, nothing more. Similarly it doesn't really matter what you or I think about each other's praxis or preferred paradigm. If yours works for you zoas23 I am glad.

If you haven't looked at Francis King's Alchemical Ritual in complete GD it's only two pages long, I would recommend having a read of it. Tell me what you think.

Oh, that's simply my advice... I won't fly to Australia to stop ElixirMixer from doing whatever he wants to do. I am aware that what you have posted in easy to find online in 1,000 different websites.

I've read your suggestion. It's certainly based on other ideas about the sixth chapter of the Sepher Yetzirah (short version) and the "dragon" ThLY and it's oppositions and the one thing that creates a balance. It's OK... though I would change a lot of things there. The best published source I know about the logic involved in the magical part of it would be the Sepher Yetzirah by Kaplan (I especially mean his comments about ThLY and what it is... and the relation it has with the nodes). It is a bit similar to some healing procedures which I have never seen published, but the theory is missing there (if you REALLY understand the magical theory that he is applying, then I should say that I would be surprised since it's 100% based on papers which I have never seen circulating in public and which are quite complex*).

*I mean the qabalistic and alchemical interpretation of the hardest chapter of the Sepher Yetzirah, which isn't exactly "easy" to understand... The book by Kaplan goes quite far in that sense, though it's not the complete explanation, but it's a VERY good basis.

Seth-Ra
11-19-2016, 02:04 AM
I'm not so certain the board-breaking analogy really works to make your point zoas23, as the way martial artists build up to that, is exactly that; a building up of the bones in the hand by reshaping the cartilage, caused from attempts at breaking the board, over and over and over. They hit it repeatedly, building up the hands until one day they are conditioned enough that they can strike the board and break it without breaking their hand.
If we turn this to the magickal working; it would suggest that he should try it, and keep trying it until he finally gets it.

I am a MOSTLY self-taught martial artist, because I never had the money to go to a dojo, and when I have had the money, I didn't have the time. (I live in a rural area, would have to find time off on the right days and make the long tiresome drive both ways...)
I have done some "proper" martial art schooling. My preferred art is Japanese swordsmanship. I spent years watching kata videos on YouTube and copying (like you would in a dojo...) and I've actually done some kendo - and impressed the instructor by how quickly I caught on and how sharp my reactions were. If I had had the money for the armor I would have been sparring the instructor all the time as he so badly wanted to spar with me because of how good I had gotten myself without formal instruction. It is a rarity, but it can be done.

I'll give an analogy myself: anyone can pull up videos and the newest information on the best way to do CPR. Anyone can go spend the money to take a class and get certified to do CPR. I went through a class and am certified to be an EMT. CPR was one of my favorite things in the class, and I was good at it.
First time I worked an actual code, I relieved the bystander who was doing chest compressions. Do you know how different it is to do CPR to a dummy vs a real human? An artificial construct/theoretical prop, vs the real thing? The first time you feel the ribs break under your hands you will.
I went through the schooling, and aced it. But the schooling is nothing like the real thing. I've learned more in the year I've actually been on the ambulance, actually doing and seeing and putting my hands to the work, than what the schools can possibly teach.

Magick/alchemy is the same way. My 14th birthday was my "alchemy birthday" - all the money I got went into books, and I spent subsequent months pouring myself into them, and them into my head.
When I actually put my hands to the work though... The books clicked, and I began learning so much more, beyond the pages. There is no better teacher than experience.
Is it dangerous? Everything is. Any and everything could kill you at any moment. Pursue what you love, research it, and put your hands to the fire to be tested by it.

Elixirmixer may very well have more to learn. The Art will be happy to school him if he lets it. ;)

Study, study until you can't study anymore. Take a deep breath, clear your mind, and then try it; go beyond studying and do it. Don't just be a student, be a practitioner. :cool:
(If ya want.)



~Seth-Ra
-Resident Sword Sorcerer
;)

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 02:12 AM
My preferred art is Japanese swordsmanship.

~Seth-Ra
-Resident Sword Sorcerer
;)

I practice Aikido, we should probably get together sometime ;)

Seth-Ra
11-19-2016, 02:17 AM
I practice Aikido, we should probably get together sometime ;)

Absolutely! :D

PM me about it. :cool:

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 02:25 AM
Absolutely! :D

PM me about it. :cool:

Done.

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 03:41 AM
So Zoas23, or anyone else, what would be the correct starting point.

For instance, in alchemy, it is usually encouraged to start with procuring the Seven Basics and then maybe a Ens Melissa and finally the Minus Opus or Vegetable Stone, before moving on to more advanced procedures.

Is there a similar Jacobs Ladder toward practical theurgical magic? Is there a difference, between these types of rituals and what they call 'High Magic' or Theurgy?

I am on a similar path to Axis it seems, in that, ?he/she? has been learning hermeticism and has naturally progressed from ritual magic into alchemy. I have began my works in Alchemy, but for the sake of mastering the hermetic umbrella, am deeply interested in ritual magic.

I'm a practical person, which is why i probably migrated towards alchemy before kabalistic studies, and that is just the thing, i have struggled to find practical application for this type of work.

If Axis is making the same metallic oils as which I am interested in, and also making, and is ?he/she? has a special ritual that they believe will make a difference and help them grow, then I want in.

I'm interested on peoples opinions of how I should progress, and I may start practising some pent. hex. middle pillar stuff as a warm up to perform these talisman magics.

It is warned against in the bible, but maybe a slap in the face from an Angel is what I need ;)

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 03:47 AM
For instance, in alchemy, it is usually encouraged to start with procuring the Seven Basics and then maybe a Ens Melissa and finally the Minus Opus or Vegetable Stone, before moving on to more advanced procedures.

From what I understand, these are all spagyric preparations. Not alchemical preparations.

But that I'd as far as my understanding goes.

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 03:55 AM
From what I understand, these are all spagyric preparations. Not alchemical preparations.

But that I'd as far as my understanding goes.

This is true, but spagyrics is usually learnt in the beginning of learning alchemy isn't it? And if then, spagyrics is combines with practical ritualistic magic, it can then become quite alchemical.

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 04:01 AM
And if then, spagyrics is combines with practical ritualistic magic, it can then become quite alchemical.

I would say it becomes "high spagyrics" at that point. In my own mind, 'alchemy' is very specific :)

zoas23
11-19-2016, 04:56 AM
So Zoas23, or anyone else, what would be the correct starting point.

For instance, in alchemy, it is usually encouraged to start with procuring the Seven Basics and then maybe a Ens Melissa and finally the Minus Opus or Vegetable Stone, before moving on to more advanced procedures.

Is there a similar Jacobs Ladder toward practical theurgical magic? Is there a difference, between these types of rituals and what they call 'High Magic' or Theurgy?

The starting point should be working with yourself. Creating a strong "armor".

The difference between this and very advances practices is not as BIG as you imagine, the main difference is that advanced practices involve working with very unbalanced forces and they also involve something that I would call a "controlled psychosis". Maybe you've heard the famous phrase by DalŪ: "the only difference between a madman and me is that I am not mad"...

So you need to create a strong "armor" first...

And forget the idea of a "High Magic"... the most simple and basic rituals are as powerful as the most advanced ones. Never look down or underestimate the power of the "simple" and "basic" rituals.... they are the true core, the "prima materia" of magic. The comparison between "basic spagyrics" and "Alchemy" is not truly accurate in this case (well, that's my opinion).

You know, after YEARS of practice and advancing to the most mind-blowing ceremonies, you may find yourself one day returning to the first things you did and saying: "Oh wow! EVERYTHING was already there".

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 05:15 AM
You know, after YEARS of practice and advancing to the most mind-blowing ceremonies, you may find yourself one day returning to the first things you did and saying: "Oh wow! EVERYTHING was already there".

I like this statement, I do notice it even in spagyrics. I also understand the definition of which you fella's talk about 'alchemy' and I do understand what you guys mean about it being very specific, i just choose to define alchemy more broadly, in terms of spagyrics and all, because to me, alchemy really is just inforcing the rules and practises of nature, back on herself, whether it is SM or Tumeric, all is the same, we seek to evolve, using nature, this is alchemy to me.

Maybe I am wrong about the official definition, my thinking is that most of you guys only use this word when producing SM and the stone ect... or am i missing the point?

elixirmixer
11-19-2016, 05:18 AM
Now, I did ask, is the talisman ritual used to impregnate the matter with the signature and energies of Saturn, or am I mistaken?

Axismundi000
11-19-2016, 09:45 AM
So this talisman outline I did is rather basic and I still think someone who just has the Pentagram and Hexagram rituals could give it a go; whilst being aware of the dangers of overdoing it by going manic and doing loads of them over a few days. The mania, anxiety, black tongue, rainbow urine did actually occur to a guy just from doing basic talisman work so beware. He did also employ the middle pillar exercise but I still think these issues could arise from this more basic method.

Personally I would recommend not bothering with all this GD stuff and just do Franz Bardon's material. With hindsight I think I would have had more parsimonious progress if I had done so. In the early stages of Bardons training loading the flask of oil with what Bardon calls the universal light and giving the intent that the mineral energies move from the precipitating lead metal to the organic molecules would do it.

Yes elixirmixer it will help with the Saturnian energies I think. I employ magical technique specifically at the point when Kerkrings menstruum is added to the oil to enhance the menstruum. I also leave the menstruum and the oil together in the incubator for at least a month.

Kiorionis
11-19-2016, 02:46 PM
Now, I did ask, is the talisman ritual used to impregnate the matter with the signature and energies of Saturn, or am I mistaken?

Based on my own experience, you are slightly mistaken. From the way it was explained by AM, the ritual creates a talisman which radiates Saturnian energy. This talisman is then placed near or under the matter during the work.
(Please correct me if I'm mistaken, Axis)

However, if anyone does attempt this ritual with Saturn, they should be fully aware of the fact that they're inviting the "Planet of Karma" into their life, for better or worse.

In my opinion, it would be much more advantageous to begin with a Lunar talisman and work on silver, as the energy is much more mellow (after the elements, Bardon suggests the Moon be the first planet worked with).

Axismundi000
11-19-2016, 04:04 PM
Yes the talisman radiates a force which steadily influences the liquid in the flask. I think you have made a prudent suggestion Kiorionis, lunar would be a better one to begin with. I am working with lead so therefore Saturn.

elixirmixer
11-20-2016, 12:09 AM
I do not understand what makes these rituals so dangerous... nevertheless i do understand that they are in fact dangerous, and I think i will take your advice here. Ill start at the bottom with everyone else with some middle pillar ect... and then when i make an Oil of Silver, then I may attempt this talisman magic.

Karma is a bitch and i dont want her in my house :cool:

Who's coming to dinner if I invite the Moon?

Kiorionis
11-20-2016, 12:56 AM
I do not understand what makes these rituals so dangerous..

The easiest way to explain it is through analogy. Everyday and normal reality is like drinking a glass of water. You're hydrated and feeling good.

Elemental energies are like having a beer with dinner. You're slightly tipsy, but the protein and carbohydrates take the edge off. You might like another brew.

The Moon is like being a few beers deep. You'll have a hangover, but you can't really call it a "hangover" -- at least, you can still get shit done if you need to.

Saturn's energy is like a blackout-drunk. You started with a bottle of red wine, then went downtown and took a few shots of tequilla. You met some girls who invited you over to a house-party where you drank shitty keg beer, a few microbrews, smoked a bowl then ate a burrito.

Then more wine and more tequila. Maybe another burrito, who knows. The only thing you do know before you black out with the spins is that vomiting up those burritos and that weird red shit that could either be wine or blood may have been the only thing which saved your life from alcohol poisoning. And where the fuck did those girls go?

Lol. Or something like that. Basically, an advanced magician is like an operative alcoholic :p

Seth-Ra
11-20-2016, 02:01 AM
The easiest way to explain it is through analogy. Everyday and normal reality is like drinking a glass of water. You're hydrated and feeling good.

Elemental energies are like having a beer with dinner. You're slightly tipsy, but the protein and carbohydrates take the edge off. You might like another brew.

The Moon is like being a few beers deep. You'll have a hangover, but you can't really call it a "hangover" -- at least, you can still get shit done if you need to.

Saturn's energy is like a blackout-drunk. You started with a bottle of red wine, then went downtown and took a few shots of tequilla. You met some girls who invited you over to a house-party where you drank shitty keg beer, a few microbrews, smoked a bowl then ate a burrito.

Then more wine and more tequila. Maybe another burrito, who knows. The only thing you do know before you black out with the spins is that vomiting up those burritos and that weird red shit that could either be wine or blood may have been the only thing which saved your life from alcohol poisoning. And where the fuck did those girls go?

Lol. Or something like that. Basically, an advanced magician is like an operative alcoholic :p


I don't know whether to feel insulted or complimented. lol XD either way, you're right, and I like it. :cool: lol

I would relate it to being a conduit of sorts. Your microcosmic self is communing with Macro forces/energies/archons etc (depending on to what extent you manage to get your feet wet).
"Burn out" is a real thing, can be psychologically and/or physically damaging, even fatal depending. Tread cautiously, respectfully, but fearlessly. Its a fine line between predator and prey; working bulb and blown one, circuit and tripped breaker. I'd say its a fine line between God (apotheosis) and dead (broken down and recycled).
I like to use that line as a jump rope. :D :cool:




~Seth-Ra

Kiorionis
11-20-2016, 04:03 AM
Seth-Ra you are a poet and I will read every book you ever write ;)

Axismundi000
11-20-2016, 09:49 AM
I think a book like:

How to make and use Talismans by Israel Regardie

View online here
http://english.grimoar.cz/?Loc=aut&Lng=2&New=31

A good book to facilitate access to Talismanic magic for people just starting out. Interestingly the example talisman given by Regardie is Saturnian