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elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 08:50 AM
Praise Almighty God, and may all, either stand in bewilderment, otherwise, kneel in awe, for YHWH delivers us The Work already near to completion.

For as God in all His wisdom has willed it, the Spiritus Mundi is consolidated down to us from above... And let us not think that it is undetermined, for rather, it is equally determined to all things, for it is balanced, and infact, its manifestation is born from only a vortex in perfect elemental balance. (metaphorically speaking)

Therefore let us look towards the tree of life, as it descends down that Ultimate light, it indeed, is split through the prism, and then manifests into our physical reality as Sol it here, having being half-part-complete as it solidifies further, and is reflected from Yesod, our Luna.

She is in most part complete. Yet the physical manifestation is not mature without the inertia of Malkuth. Through balance we obtain grounding. Through the four elements we capture and coagulate the three principals

So here then; the philosopher begins his path, he climbs high peaks, where he feels cold grounds and icy winds, he looks down from said peaks and contemplates the warmth of the trees below. He has been moistened from his lofty experiences, and yearns again to feel the warmth of his fellowmen and share of his experience. As he speaks, within the four walls of the Saloon, his cheeks crimson from fine liquour, only then does he consider again those lofty heights, and then when the sun rises, so again does he take his march, up to the summit, where the winds are icy and the ground slips out from under the feet.

For years the man wandered.. and at each turn, felt the burning of that which he had not, whether it be the cool chill of his many tall stories, or the comfort of home, his friends and the warm fire.

On and on it went. year after year. His friends passed away, and the peaks disappeared...

He sat now, old and happy, His grandchildren sang, the fire was still crackling..

These youth turned to a grey bearded smile, they asked said face 'Where was your lot as a child?'

Ol' grey beard turn with a shine in his eye. 'Secrets I would find, and secrets I do keep, some when I was blind, some while on the peeks'

They laughed these kids and thought nothing more, their lives they did fade, Ol' White beard; more he saw.

The rain fell down, the dew in all its beauty.. the man still sits and attends to his duty.

Nature teaches lessons, while the world learns so little.

The man still lives on... in the peaks we know not... He's probably in the forest. 900 years and smokin' pot.

Thank you Father; and amen.

Awani
11-21-2016, 10:11 AM
Is God a man?

:cool:

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:21 AM
When He wants to be. :cool:

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:50 AM
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=963&d=1479725446

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:57 AM
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=964&d=1479725800


http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=965&d=1479725826

---------------------------------------------------

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 11:01 AM
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=966&d=1479726065


http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=967&d=1479726160

Schmuldvich
11-21-2016, 03:53 PM
What is that excerpt of text from in your first post? Did you write all that, elixirmixer?

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 10:31 PM
Hmmmm hard to say... I was drunk and just started typing last night. Could have been the Angels ;) not bad ey? ;)

Edit: it's a good little story, yes i did write it, its my own version of "deeply crypted PS works" (lol) and I think that I will continue to ad to it, and improve its grammer, formatiing and most importantly, the message it shares.

Schmuldvich, have you had any experiences with the PS?

elixirmixer
11-21-2016, 11:19 PM
This thread is basically a storehouse of notes and conversations about what *I* believe concerning the confection of the philosophers stone.

It appears I've been pissing off some people in the 'gay' thread, so in the interest of public safety (keeping me safely in the public's eye) I won't be toooooo revealing concerning what I believe to be 'the way' as I simply don't have the energy for arguments, find it quite distracting from the works, and would like to get through at least one thread without needing to be gently reminded of anything... (but, if the shoe fits.... )

WATER - I intend to use female specified archeus waters, impregnated by male waters and sit it in a reflux simply as an initiatory experiment and to get me 'in the zone' also to notice if anything happens toward the right directions.

So my first step is to isolate - mercury of water sulfur of water salt of water mercury of earth sulfur of earth salt of earth - water fractions from a sample of collected rain water.

When i have had the right amount of practise and start to see some results, I will be using some very special water that I collected December 25th 2012 from Ayers Rock, Uluru, Australia.

This water shall become my first attempt to create a stone in this fashion. I will be dropping pictures and method all over the place, in no particular order. As I said im sure there will be a lot to learn from this thread especially (or beter words) maybe... for beginners at least, but it will be all over the place and its up to you to put together the pieces.

Kiorionis
11-21-2016, 11:58 PM
but it will be all over the place and its up to you to put together the pieces.

I like puzzles; I look forward to reading more!

elixirmixer
11-22-2016, 12:59 AM
I found this translation, on the wikipedia page for a music band called Absu. They have an album called Barathrum: V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (I've never listened to them before, I found it by accident... I share it here because it is the most practical translation I have found:

"Visita Interiora Terræ Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem", an alchemic motto that can be roughly translated as "Visit the interior of the earth and [by] purifying [yourself] you will find the hidden stone".

elixirmixer
11-22-2016, 01:23 AM
@ Andro, I tried to work out the photobucket thing but as I noticed in dev's post, it seems to be down. I don't know any other way than to continue attaching as I have been... Thank you for imbedding the images for me.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=968&d=1479778477

elixirmixer
11-22-2016, 01:46 AM
Is there a way to increase file upload limits?

I want to analyse the Azoth symbology, with that of an alchemically aligned kabalistic tree of life, but im struggle with uploads as I think many others possibly are.

The Azoth symbology tends to start at lead and work round to silver, while the alchemical tree starts at malkuth, then luna, all the way up to Saturnian energy.

I wonder why there is a reverse in these two symbols?

Kiorionis
11-22-2016, 02:06 AM
I do hope you find a way to present the symbols, because I don't know what you're talking about without them.

:)

Schmuldvich
11-22-2016, 03:11 AM
Looking forward to seeing your experiments!

Andro
11-22-2016, 06:44 AM
@ Andro, I tried to work out the photobucket thing but as I noticed in dev's post, it seems to be down. I don't know any other way than to continue attaching as I have been...

Photobucket is apparently upgrading or having server issues, because it's been occasionally down last week, but not all the time. There is also imageshack.com (http://imageshack.com/) as well as other hosting sites. Look at the thread dev mentioned, people have posted what other external hosting sites they're using. Alternatively, if you have you own domain and site, you can likely host there.


Thank you for embedding the images for me.

One of us is always making the posts clearer, such as embedding images, etc... Sometimes it's dev, sometimes it's Mr. K, sometimes it's me. Even better if you do it yourself...

It's unlikely for the attachment limit to be increased, as it creates additional server load and can slow down the forum, loading pages, etc... Also, if you upload an attachment directly to the forum, go to the image page of the attachment, right click on the image itself, select 'Copy Image Location' (or 'Copy Image URL'), paste that location between and brackets and voila, the image appears in the post!

elixirmixer
11-22-2016, 12:10 PM
Azoth:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=969&d=1479816221

Alchemabalic Tree:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=970&d=1479816553

elixirmixer
11-30-2016, 08:05 AM
Robert A Bartlett: The Archaeus of Water
Some operators combine the above methods to produce a reconstituted water called
the Archaeus of Water. It is an Evolved form of water with surprising medicinal effects. The
water obtained by deliquescence of a salt is loaded with Fire and considered the male / Sulfur
/ Sun aspect, while the rain or snow waters are considered to represent the female / Mercury /
Lunar aspect of the Celestial Waters.
A quantity of collected rainwater (the female) is "impregnated" with the distilled
Angel Water (the male), then allowed to ferment for at least a month. After fermentation, the
water is separated using the 4x3 distillation described above.
Once the twelve fractions of water have been obtained, the process of recombination
can begin. Starting with the Fire element, equal volumes of the Sulfur, Mercury, and Salt
59
fractions are combined, then allowed to circulate for several days. Let it cool, then set it aside
for later use. Repeat this process on each of the remaining elements until you obtain the four
elements in their reconstituted form.
Now combine equal volumes from each of these elements and allow this to circulate
for a week to a month at about 40°C. Notice we do not use the Gur in this preparation. The
resulting Celestial Water is called the Archaeus or First Being of Water, and can be used as a
solvent for extractions in any realm or as a healing water on its own.
The Archaeus represents a Universal Mercury, and can be determined for operation in
any of the three realms by adjusting the relative proportions of the four elements during its
preparation. The four elements of water should be present in each Archaeus, but not equally
as we did above. If the Earth element is predominant, the Archaeus will be determined to the
Metallic realm. If the elements of Earth and Water predominate, the Archaeus will be
determined to the Mineral realm. Water and Air predominant will determine it to the
Vegetable realm, while Fire and Air will determine the Animal realm. The mixtures are
circulated as before, then they are ready for use.

Could the Archaeus be the magnet of the philosophers?

elixirmixer
12-02-2016, 03:17 AM
The process really is just like the minor opus isn't it. We are isolating two waters and two salts.

In the plant realm we usually combine Ethanol, essential oils, Plant salts of sulphur, and the Alkali Salts

For a universal stone we need more universal ingredients. I'm thinking... Putrefied rainwater distillate (female fraction), Angel water (male fraction), Dew Salt, Sea Salt.

elixirmixer
12-04-2016, 05:49 AM
The sages have always suggested gathering few and rain water in the spring time during a full moon. I'm a little late this season so the summer will have to do.

I was wondering if anyone can answer me this

Spring is to rejuvenation what Summer is to :______

What energies do the other seasons carry?

Kiorionis
12-04-2016, 07:43 AM
Spring is to rejuvenation what Summer is to :

Cooking! IMO

elixirmixer
12-04-2016, 11:12 AM
Is it perhaps dangerous I wonder, to create the stone during the different seasons? Could these energies be too 'strong' or alternatively, carry a 'destructive' force rather than a 'creative' one?

Could this explain the reports and unfortunate tales of valiant alchemists who experienced less than desirable results?

Does this coincide with the 'phillisophical barriers of protection' stuff?... AND H*** F*** JUST HAD EPIC REVO'S!

It's hard to put revelation into words, but the mind speaks in symbols ;)

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=971&d=1480849918

I superimposed the image i found in 'real alchemy' by Robert B Allan over a random picture from google that showed the torison energy field, the tree in the image i thought was also very relevant.

elixirmixer
12-08-2016, 10:49 AM
Corpus Hermeticum is a fantastic book. I have perhaps learnt more about 'myself' reading that than anything else. It talks about Bodies, and Essenses. It talks about what is corruptible and what is incorruptible. It speaks of God, and of His Son (it also says that God is referred to as male, for he is indeed a Father to us all)

It's amazing the way it talks about REGENERATION and the MIND...

It talks about finding mercy, through abstinence and silent meditation (fasting)

It talks about OBE's to a place referred to as The place of Salvation, and that no training is required, nor any pre-thought, for how can you comprehend that which you are to be if you are not yet that being? But rather it is delivered to you, as a gift, for your valiant victory over your base desires.

It also says that the worst evil in man is Atheism, and that mans greatest error is to not know God.

Hermes Thrice Epic bloke, was spot on, IMHO

May we all finally again honour our Creator, and in doing so, bring back peace and harmony to our plant :)

elixirmixer
12-11-2016, 09:20 PM
Blood.

Blood is the true Matter if deciding to use any that is.

Blood is unspecified. Because man is the world, man is all vegetable, animal, metal, all fire air water earth, all in balance.

Blood will putrefy and show the peacocks tail (after dried)

Blood can make a white stone

Blood can make a red stone

Blood is free to everyone.

Blood has collected the Universal Spirit

Blood.

Kiorionis
12-11-2016, 10:00 PM
Blood.

Blood is the true Matter if deciding to use any that is.

Blood is unspecified. Because man is the world, man is all vegetable, animal, metal, all fire air water earth, all in balance.

Blood will putrefy and show the peacocks tail (after dried)

Blood can make a white stone

Blood can make a red stone

Blood is free to everyone.

Blood has collected the Universal Spirit

Blood.

I am very interested in blood. I will share my own opinion on this ;)

Blood.

Blood is the foundation of Man.

"Blood" is universal, but "blood" is particular to the animal kingdom.

Blood, when putrefied, creates the various tissues of the human body

Plasma is White, the Red Blood Cells are Red.

Blood is free to everyone.

Blood collects the universal spirit.

Blood

Awani
12-11-2016, 11:19 PM
I am very interested in blood.

Are you familiar with this quote, that I have kept with me in my spiritual/shamanic path journals for over a decade:


Blood is the first incarnation of the universal fluid; it is the materialized ‘vital light’. Its birth is the most marvellous of all nature’s marvels; it lives only by perpetually transforming itself, for it is the universal Proteus. The blood issues from principles where there was none of it before, and it becomes flesh, bones, hair, nails… tears, and perspiration. It can be allied neither to corruption nor death; when life is gone, it begins decomposing; if you know how to reänimate it, to infuse into it life by a new magnetization of its globules, life will return again. The universal substance, with its double motion, is the great arcanum of being; blood is the great arcanum of life. - Éliphas Lévi

:cool:

Kiorionis
12-11-2016, 11:40 PM
I didn't know you were familiar with Éliphas Lévi, dev. Very cool stuff.

elixirmixer
12-12-2016, 08:18 AM
Philosophical magnetism??

Philosophical electricity??

What is the perfect balance? Is it nessesary?

The philosophers always talk about 'learning from nature'.

IMO the least spoken about, yet most active and important natural phenomena is what common scientists refer to as 'the water cycle'

The constant (yet very slow) process of refluxing water over and over again, I believe, must be the main contributing factor for the collection of spiritus mundi.

I could obviously be wrong, and any who have the stone will know if I am confused or not... Would be great for some advice...I do notice that no one with the stone has commented... This makes me feel like potentially I am on the right track...

elixirmixer
12-15-2016, 08:53 PM
New realisations: Prima Material can be whatever you want, so long as you can obtain a female AND male counterpart, then the two will ferment.

The Prima Materia is a seed.

It is created by the male and female expressions in balance, housed in a dark moist place.

The Prima Materia can be WATER. Rainwater is considered feminine, while dew is considered masculine.

Urine could be used, the oil extracted by ether can be exposed to sunlight to turn red which could be considered masculine while the moon light will turn the oil white...

The Prima Materia can be your own sperm! Which goes through the full colour change and develops a red stone, claimed by paracelsus to be able to transmute metals (he was probably talking about 'philosophical' sperm) nevertheless....

If I could be bothered, I would insert an image of the yin/yang sign right about here:

Schmuldvich
12-15-2016, 09:49 PM
Prima Material can be whatever you want

Not so quick there! Your new revelations are encouraging but I would not confidently say that any material can be used as our Prima Materia. While in theory it may make some sense, in actuality we know that there is but one Prima Materia useful for accomplishing our Magnum Opus. By definition it is THE FIRST MATTER, and if we are dealing with Alchemy and Alchemy only we know this to be but one specific substance. Of course, if we are dealing with spagyric preparations or other experiments, our prima materia can be what we desire to use as our first matter in those experiments...but with Alchemy there is but one and only one First Matter.

Voltaire
12-15-2016, 10:43 PM
Blood collects the universal spirit.


I agree
The Modern Alchemist on youtube says Blood touches everything in our body, and either holds inside it, or is a conduit of conscious energy
I think this is why it's used in so many rituals to focus energy





housed in a dark moist place.


So many sex puns...


Sex is the key

Schmuldvich
12-15-2016, 11:58 PM
Sex is the key
To what?

Kiorionis
12-16-2016, 01:22 AM
Not so quick there! Your new revelations are encouraging but I would not confidently say that any material can be used as our Prima Materia.

If "Prima Materia" is relative, then why can't it be "a matter" as well as "a Principle"?

Kiorionis
12-16-2016, 01:25 AM
The Modern Alchemist on youtube says Blood touches everything in our body, and either holds inside it, or is a conduit of conscious energy

I'll agree that it touches everything. Ayurveda philosophy says that blood plasma is the foundation, and "transforms" itself into every tissue type.

But I would disagree that it is the pathway for conscious energy. I think that belongs to the nervous system. Blood pathways can have subconscious energy, if it likes ;)

Schmuldvich
12-16-2016, 05:14 AM
If "Prima Materia" is relative, then why can't it be "a matter" as well as "a Principle"?
I wouldn't say that Prima Materia is relative. When used in the context of Alchemy, our Prima Materia is referring to a specific substance. If taking the literal definition of the word, it means 'first matter', which can be used in any given context (but is not relative in any way to our Prima Materia, a nomenclature given to a certain substance in our Art).

Kiorionis
12-16-2016, 07:15 AM
If the "first matter" can be used in "any given context", then how is the term not relative?

ExtraEgo
12-16-2016, 08:59 AM
Concerning the blood: when one looks at the oxygen carrying part, the hemoglobin, one might notice it's a very complicated contraption just to carry oxygen.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Structures_of_Hemoglobin_forms.png/800px-Structures_of_Hemoglobin_forms.png

In my language AIR is called VAZDUH, which is short for VASKOLIKI DUH - the Omnipresent Spirit.

Chlorophyll is not different at all, almost, since it has a Mg atom instead of Fe, as well as a minor structural difference.

elixirmixer
12-16-2016, 12:20 PM
It's an electron net. This molecular shape is designed to 'catch' certain 'energies'

Now boys, stop dicking me around and just PM me about wether or not the universal solvent in it's seeded form is in fact my Prima Materia . Please.

Schmuldvich
12-16-2016, 04:54 PM
If the "first matter" can be used in "any given context", then how is the term not relative?
Good questions, I was hoping you would keeping prodding further discussion.

Relative, when used as an adjective, means considered in relation or in proportion to something else. Another definition is a thing having a relation to or connection with or necessary dependence on another thing. Our Prima Materia, the substance spoken of by true Sages, is not "relative" to anything else. It simply is what it is regardless of what other things are or could be. So we see that our Prima Materia is a name genuine Alchemists have given to a specific substance identified in their experiments that in no way teeters, falters, or changes when used in another context.

Now, being that "prima materia" is a Latin word, in order to understand what this means in English, we must first translate these two words. Prima means 'first' and materia means 'matter'. When put together and analyzed as a whole, we see that the two words prima and materia come together to form the meaning first matter. Something we use as a starting point for something can be called a first matter. For example, flour is the prima materia of a wedding cake and is in no way contextually or relatively related to our Prima Materia used in our legitimate Alchemy experiments.


Semantics really.

Kiorionis
12-16-2016, 05:05 PM
Haha well it was really only one question..



Relative, when used as an adjective, means considered in relation or in proportion to something else.

Right, I suppose earlier I was using relativity to express multiple perspectives of the same concept -- the idea that the Prima Materia is a physical substance as well as a philosophical one.

I can't remember where I read it, but it's stuck in my head now.

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 09:39 AM
Yes, relative to the context, because there is the physical prima materia, and the philosophical one. Physical stone. Spiritual Stone.

Schmuldvich
01-05-2017, 02:26 PM
Yes, relative to the context, because there is the physical prima materia, and the philosophical one. Physical stone. Spiritual Stone.

What do you mean?

Are you able to post any references that agree with what you are saying here?

elixirmixer
01-05-2017, 09:27 PM
Am I able to? Yes... Can I be bothered? No..., but just for you Schmuld, I will give it a crack tonight.

elixirmixer
01-09-2017, 08:53 PM
Got to love you Schmuldvich! Due to two factors, you, being annoying, and AF not running all of yesterday... I was forced to actually read some more alchemical literature, and most particularly, from the list you had given me in the SM thread.

I now know the entire theory (almost) (just need that last part now) of how to create our stone.

So thank you, most particularly to Schmuldvich and Andro, who's being annoying has paid off.

I hope I too, can be annoying, just for you two, and that, through my deep, deep annoyance, you will grow, as I have.

Seriously, Thank you.

IM OFF TO SEE THE WIZARD, THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF AUS!!! :cool:

elixirmixer
01-09-2017, 09:14 PM
Now, I am not going to share what I have discovered concerning the stone. I think that I've given anyone a pretty bloody good start, possibly the most open explanations I've ever read. But what I do want to clarify for you is this:

Nature DOES create this process naturally. It creates the STONE! (you just cant see it cause your blind (truly))

Nature, is your best teacher, not books.

Nature, doesn't need your help, you are not the artist, she is, your just a rabbit at a water dripper, hoping your master remembered to fill your bottle.

Nature, shares the process of the stone EVERYwhere you see her. EVERYWHERE!

One matter? One Flask? Look down. Look up. Your in it.

The emerald tablet is all you need. When you can read that, for what it truly means, then:



By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world
& thereby all obscurity shall fly from you

Schmuldvich
01-09-2017, 10:34 PM
Got to love you Schmuldvich! Due to two factors, you, being annoying, and AF not running all of yesterday... I was forced to actually read some more alchemical literature, and most particularly, from the list you had given me in the SM thread.

I now know the entire theory (almost) (just need that last part now) of how to create our stone.

Well aren't you a quick learner!!!

(That was sarcasm, btw)

I am happy to hear about your progress and even more joyed to see that you took the time out of your day to sit down and read a couple texts. Embrace this feeling you are experiencing! It going to happen to you many more times while you develop a real understanding of Alchemy. Remember to always remember, you are still a total newb (like myself) and do not actually have as sound of a foundation laid as you think you do, though it is encouraging to see your excitement. In a couple months you are going to look back where you are now and laugh with amusement!

Regarding the Emerald Tablet see this: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4902-The-Emerald-Tablet-What-Does-It-Mean

Looking forward to watching you progress in the Art, elixirmixer! Keep us updated with what you learn!

Schmuldvich
01-09-2017, 10:53 PM
Now, I am not going to share what I have discovered concerning the stone.

Nature, is your best teacher, not books.

Nature, doesn't need your help, you are not the artist, she is

In what ways do you feel Nature teaches us about Alchemy?

If Nature didn't need my help, the whole world would be one gaint Philosopher's Stone by your logic.

Friend, Nature certainly does need the hand of the Artist to intervine and accelerate Nature to its highest potential. Reading texts such as AOETTCPOTK will help to greatly widen your understanding of Alchemy and all the things that come with it.

elixirmixer
01-10-2017, 12:44 AM
In what ways do you feel Nature teaches us about Alchemy?


Nature is the generating spirit, who's warmth, through a subtle motion seeks out to operate upon all things (in this universe)
God has simply set Nature in motion, by a gentle push, through light. By watching nature, we see her operations, the way in which she manifests all that is, our Pistis Sophia, who through coagulation has begotten matter, or another way to put it might be the bodies


If Nature didn't need my help, the whole world would be one gaint Philosopher's Stone by your logic.

It will be. It's not finished yet.


Friend, Nature certainly does need the hand of the Artist to intervine and accelerate Nature to its highest potential. Reading texts such as AOETTCPOTK will help to greatly widen your understanding of Alchemy and all the things that come with it.

I truly truly disagree. 'The Artist', only speeds up nature, in order to partake of its perfection sooner. And in fact this is the practical method of stone production, to replicate nature, unspecified, and to quicken its processes.

IMO. Love to all.

elixirmixer
01-10-2017, 05:22 AM
The Sophic Hydrolith:


Everything contributes to the formation of this Stone. It is conceived below the earth, born in the earth, quickened in heaven, dies in time, obtains eternal glory.

elixirmixer
01-13-2017, 12:16 AM
I have certain watery-like substances that I have collected in the times of the full moon.

I am about to use these two very special waters to try and create the stone.

My question today is one of safety and I believe is mostly directed to Salazius:

Can making the stone at other times of the year other than spring, be dangerous?

elixirmixer
01-13-2017, 07:42 AM
ECCLESIAST. XI.
"He that abides in the fear of the Lord, and cleaves to His Word, and waits faithfully on His office, will transform tin and copper into silver and gold, and will do great things with the help of God: yea, with the grace of Jehovah, he will have power to make gold out of common refuse."

Those are the words of King Solomon.

elixirmixer
01-13-2017, 07:44 AM
ISAIAH XXVIII.
"Therefore, thus saith the Lord: Behold I lay in Zion for a foundation a Stone, a tried Stone, a precious corner Stone, a sure foundation. He that has it shall not be confounded."

elixirmixer
01-13-2017, 09:30 AM
1. Calcination - burning, a breakdown of the 'bonds'

2. Dissolution - Dissolve the matter

3. Separation - reduce the fractions

4. Conjunction - merge fractions

5. Fermentation - yep.

6. Distillation - this, cannot, in my opinion, just mean a standard distillation. This is a special distillation i reacon, and I will not reveal my opinion.

7. Prove once and for all, that the main quality required to transmute lead into God, is a love of God; and nothing else can possibly work. Nothing.

elixirmixer
02-08-2017, 07:01 AM
North flowing magnetics of the Terra.

The geometries of the Pyramid. (Pi - Phi^2)

Zero point energy.

A condensing manifestation in our waters

Bake for 40 minutes.

Serve with love. :D

elixirmixer
02-18-2017, 09:49 PM
So, for all avid Stone Hunters, we continue our work here of enigmatic learning.

Sol and Luna. Twi and La, Ying and Yang. Why?

Why these? Why two? Why not three? Or one?

They say that our matter is One. And yet two. And yet three.

I share with you a great template for the work.

Sol Luna, and the Seed.

Three in the one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us look at something else, equally worthy of our inspection, is the fact that there are MANY STONES! Am I right?

How does one decide which is the true stone of the adepts? Well first, one must ask himself, how does one attain to the perfection in matter? And then ask himself, which matter it is that will allow for it's dynamic perfection to take place.

Let's take urine for example... in these golden waters, is there a distinguished Sol and a distinguished Luna? Perhaps, if wrought with patience.

Then again with water. Can we find the white? Will we recieve the red?

And in gold and silver, doth these bring us the prizes we seek?

You can see in all these things, (if you know what your looking for) that a male and female counter-part can be displayed in each. And due to the very nature of the universe, the two can become one, being thrice conjoined and has the potential of Stone-ship.

------------------------------------------------------------

VITRIOL.

Do not the ancient sages tease us?

Is this not another substance, in which the whole work can be completed?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Believe me children, when I say that first and for-most, th matter which you use is of small concern, when learning and applying your theory into practise at the beginning, since, it would be no small thing, to discover the methods that unite ALL these materials, into their final, solid, red form.

Then, once a practitioner has mastered the ART, then one only needs then to refine his chosen material, until he finds that which he seeks. If he wishes to hold that which is unspecified, use an un-specified spirit. If it is the tingeing of te elements ones seeks, it is within the elements that you will find har you are looking for.

Hath Spagyrics no standard?

Is the path a crooked one?

Have you held the Seven?

Have you beheld the Twelve?

Why are we to Spagyrics?

And what have we learnt?

Let go of the three principals, and know that with two, we make one.

Be free, my celestial Masons

elixirmixer
02-23-2017, 11:29 AM
So... In line with this post, being a storehouse of my thoughts and feelings while on the hunt for the stone; I will now share my new insights into all things stony.

Potassium carbonate, upon repeated heatings with a blow torch, slowly becomes more and more fuseable, like glass. With each repeated calcination, the salts will melt easier and easier still.

I believe (and have not yet experienced) that sea salt, will after many calcinations, become more of this crystallised honey consistency.

Why am I so interested by this?

Well... 'The Stone', the goal of our work, can be had in more than the one way. There are different magnets, different devices, different methods.

I am working on my own particular mode and method.

One of my in-volentary mentors, Andro, seems to have expressed a method that relies on a homo-genesistic matter, and (it appears to be lacking in; but I could be wrong) a body, but rather he (Andro) manifests some type of body through his process somewhere. (This is just my interpretation, I could be wrong about what I think andros method is.)

I am suggesting a heterogenous matter, and with the body supplied, in the form of our runny sea salts.

I am very much draw to this "One matter- One Vessal- One fire" way of thinking.

I would really like to attempt my hetero-embodied matter, in the one flask method.

One MAJOR barrier, is my location in the Southern Hemisphere. Does anybody know, what months are important for stone work, and more importantly, how these can be converted for work in the Southern Hemisphere.

Please help out with this one if you can so I can get this Stone on the road.

-----------------------------------------

Putrefaction: some of MY thoughts on putrefaction.

IMO(!) putrefaction cannot occur until there has been a separation of radical humidity. After all, how can something die, if it's still filled with life?

It could appear as if this were not true, since, if you put a matter into vessel, it will first sweat, then the vapours condense and then putrefaction sets in. I believe it is this initial separation of life, that brings the on-set of death. Even if that life returns, it is not re-united with that which is dead, at least, not initially. But rather, that secret fire, sets to work to further along the decay.

Separation of the fire element is essential to putrefaction IMO.

Sooo.... How can we use this practically? How can we test for it?

I am actually going to start my work on the stone, by practising it's methods of manifestation on plant life first.

I have/am slowly learning this REAL(?) definition of 'Alchemy'

It is far more about the 'state' of a matter, rather than it's chemical composition.

I'm getting excited but know I have a world of research ahead of me.

This entire thread is not intended to be very co-herant. So if you don't like it, go hang out with your other stoner friends.

Someone please help with my down under astrological timing problem. It's a bit too mathatical for me.

elixirmixer
03-03-2017, 05:23 AM
My dear friends, whom have had the uttermost patience with me, greetings!

My mantra for the day has been:


Dew on Steriods

And while I have been looking over the works of Hollandus, my mind was drawn away from his plant work and began being drawn towards the hand of the philosophers.

Dare I ask?

-------------------------------------

Hollandus' work on vegetables is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been making Spagyric preparations for some time now and can't help but notice that, while some are still very potent and effective as remedies, they lack in the initiatory virtues that are spoken of by the ancients.

I have believed for some time that it would be possible, and perhaps more philosophical if an elixir was created using ONLY the plant itself. I have meditated on it for some time, yet much like most of my work, I've been walking alone in the dark.

z0 K was generous enough (or sick of reading my err's) to point me in the right direction, and it has been something I've been seeking a long time. I'm very greatful, because to me this is the true way, and no other way.

Love to all of you and your families

E.M.

elixirmixer
03-10-2017, 08:13 AM
As I play catch up with our keyboarded adepts, more epic revo's (revelations) continue to come to light.

Saturn is out blackness, formed through putrefaction (time). And what are we putrefying? Philosophical matter. A philosophical SULFUR philosophical MERCURY philosophical SALT.

When we procure Philosophical WINE we also procure Philosophical VINEGAR and SALT. With the help of it's vulgar waters, it can all be together, a compound, yet it is one thing only.

This, then, one thing, our solvent, is set to putrefying. For from it's putrefaction shall the spirit release it's feces.

Then this spirit is our true Mercury, for it will readily dissolve Sol and Luna, yet not the vulgar gold of the puffers but our gold and luna.

The Stone of the philosophers comes from Saturn, our lead.

For there is no greater power in the VEGETABLE WORK

elixirmixer
03-11-2017, 12:38 AM
There are 4 MAJOR stones that I am aware of:

Vegetable realm: The philosophical Wine stone. (Just a tip for those lost as I once was, this wine stone only has one thing in common with actual wine.)

Animal realm: The manifested essence of Spiritus Animas. The philosophically prepared Blood, sperm or my preferred alternative, honey.

Mineral realm: not lead or antimony. Not gold, silver or mercury, or cinninar, or any of the gross metals at all. Philosophically prepared materials are required.

And then the realm of Un-specified: This is the stone. This is the stone in which all other stones originate from. This is the realm in which all other realms originate from. This is the place of spiritus mundi, the universal spirit. It ought to be this stone that is sought out more than all others for it is the CHIEF CORNER STONE

This word "Philosophical".... It is this word which is the key of our art. When you come to understand it's meaning, you will begin to move from Spagyrics into alchemy. I was a short while ago, on the other side I the fence, getting electrocuted as I tried climbing over. But now that I am chewing greener grasses, I can witness, that it was worth all te waiting and trials.

There are three major stones, and the fourth is their CHIEF

Awani
03-11-2017, 01:06 AM
People who get Stoned are often Stoned by the not-Stoned... which is ironic since getting Stoned is being a witness to the Stone.

:cool:

black
03-11-2017, 01:15 AM
Well now ...Mr. Mixer

It sounds like you have been reading quite a lot.

I wouldn't agree 100% with what you are saying, but I can see that the reading
is connecting some more neurons.

This time next week the story will be slightly different again and it's amazing how quickly our minds can accept new info and work to reason it.

Read, Pray, Meditate.
That's my day planned out.

You have a good one too.

Schmuldvich
03-11-2017, 06:55 AM
I was a short while ago, on the other side I the fence, getting electrocuted as I tried climbing over. But now that I am chewing greener grasses, I can witness, that it was worth all te waiting and trials.

What are the major things you have learned recently?

elixirmixer
03-11-2017, 08:43 PM
I've learnt what the word philosophical means.

I've learnt what the difference between Spagyrics and Alchemy is.

I've learnt how to make the philosophical wine and vinegars of the adepts (made my first batch last night)

I've learnt to be a little less revealing with these secrets :)

I have smelled some celestial scents, and last night I had a dream about separating the four elements.

I learnt how to rap along to this song:

"Addicted" - by Bliss n Eso :cool:

elixirmixer
03-11-2017, 08:52 PM
Mr Black, feel free to critique my last few posts so that I know where I may still be in err.

I am recombining the water with earth today. I am still unsure how to recombine my air and fire.

Would a refluxing work the same as a circulation? Or do our dragon scales require complete dryness through each cycle?

Kiorionis
03-11-2017, 09:04 PM
I've learnt what the word philosophical means.

I've learnt what the difference between Spagyrics and Alchemy is.

I've learnt how to make the philosophical wine and vinegars of the adepts (made my first batch last night)

I've learnt to be a little less revealing with these secrets :)

I have smelled some celestial scents, and last night I had a dream about separating the four elements.

here is a website you might enjoy then: Alchemy Life (http://alchemylife.org/index.html) ;)

alfr
03-12-2017, 06:16 PM
hi elixirmixer's you say:
I've learnt how to make the philosophical wine and vinegars of the adepts (made my first batch last night)

ok sure the philosophical wine and vinegars as say won bermus de lubizc and wendeilphing (in him book segret of adept ) IF ARE THE SECRET TRUE philosophical wine and vinegars

is very very importatant and essential key for to separed all melatal and obtain by it the TRUE internal WHITE Weighing essential matrix mercury "commun"that is the same in all metals that it is the Natural TRUE SOLAR MAGNET of all the metals that it after obtain it we must use it for REAL ATTRACT and capture the TRUE SM etc
yes sure it is excelent key you have made it
(nb and get what TRUE the solar magnet and white mercury Matrix and groaning "common" to all imetals etc is an experience and an appearance unmistakable)

but for see if your philosophical wine and vinegars is the true have you test your philosophical wine and vinegars so it dissolving the gold as ice in water hot?
and your SVP is able to SEPARATE the metal in himself in the matrix TRUE WITE mercury "commun" as is natural in all metal?

my best regard alfr

ps
NB about all this and the TRUE method of as made the TRUE vine phil of raimondo lullo etc are very inportant some writes of lullian alchimist cristoforo parigino.

Schmuldvich
03-12-2017, 09:05 PM
but for see if your philosophical wine and vinegars is the true have you test your philosophical wine and vinegars so it dissolving the gold as ice in water hot?

My man here asking the REAL questions!!

...Your "philosophic" wine is not Philosophic if it does not dissolve gold. Your "philosophic" vinegar is not Philosophic if it does not dissolve gold.

Are you sure you're working with what you think you're working with?

elixirmixer
03-12-2017, 11:02 PM
You know not what your asking.

I'm not as well read as others, but I'm pretty sure that the gold that's being referred to is not the GOLD that I'm looking for...

I'm hoping to do some more research and work out exactly what I need to be doin with these substances, but as far as reaching OUR BLACKNESS, I am confident, although this was mainly a trial run, to see the principals at work. I most likely have not obtained a true separating of the elements, yet, enough to see, and get an idea, of what it is that I'm tryin to achieve.

I suspect, that while I'm trying not to lose or gain anything in these experiments, I think that I still need to calcine the earth to make it pure. Although, if I read correctly, perhaps it is through the circulation of it's waters that it can be brought to purity.

I do believe that out blackness comes from our four elements recombined, and from this OUR MERCURY is sublimated.

I also think that rather than "our philosophical wine should dissolve gold" I think this should read more along the lines of "the properties of philosophical wine are imparted to our mercury, which will dissolve SOL"

What do you think?

elixirmixer
03-12-2017, 11:07 PM
hi elixirmixer's you say:
I've learnt how to make the philosophical wine and vinegars of the adepts (made my first batch last night)

ok sure the philosophical wine and vinegars as say won bermus de lubizc and wendeilphing (in him book segret of adept ) IF ARE THE SECRET TRUE philosophical wine and vinegars

is very very importatant and essential key for to separed all melatal and obtain by it the TRUE internal WHITE Weighing essential matrix mercury "commun"that is the same in all metals that it is the Natural TRUE SOLAR MAGNET of all the metals that it after obtain it we must use it for REAL ATTRACT and capture the TRUE SM etc
yes sure it is excelent key you have made it
(nb and get what TRUE the solar magnet and white mercury Matrix and groaning "common" to all imetals etc is an experience and an appearance unmistakable)

but for see if your philosophical wine and vinegars is the true have you test your philosophical wine and vinegars so it dissolving the gold as ice in water hot?
and your SVP is able to SEPARATE the metal in himself in the matrix TRUE WITE mercury "commun" as is natural in all metal?

my best regard alfr

ps
NB about all this ans the TRUE and the method of as made the TRUE vine phil of raimondo lullo are very inportant the writes of lullian alchimist cristoforo parigino

Thank you Alfr. Are you sayin I should be readying Raymond Lully, and Christofer parigino?

I do expect that these elements, once purified, should be quite a decent SM Magnet, which would be lovely, because I've never made any before :)

elixirmixer
03-28-2017, 06:21 AM
I'm ordering a 5 litre borosilicate alembic retort with joint sizes 55/60 a male-male adapter only about 40mm long after joints, and a 2 litre 55/60 jointed boiling flask.

This is what I will use to sweat the three spirits from my subject, and eventually, to sweat the water of the clouds away from my stone.

There has been an official lab shutdown, and a massive project of demolishing the shed and re-building has commenced.

Only a stone's throw away ;)

Love to you all :)

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 11:44 AM
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." - Jesus the Christ

A MEDITATION INTO SPIRITUS MUNDI COLLECTION THEORY
by Elixirmixer

Genesis, as we well know, holds within it the framework or the ideologies that create our world. As the spirit stirred over the waters of void earth, something sparked, and the world began.

This spark, so subtle and pure, has within it an incredible virtue, and that, by a way of giving a sustaining animation within the chemical forms of our bodies. It is clear to the hermetic eyes, that when one passes away, then quickly the bodies decomposes, and it is said that the spirit has left the body.

We know of, from the ancient sages, certain signs and properties that allow us to comprehend the nature of this most subtle of spirits. We know that it is very pure and requires specific conditions otherwise it quickly becomes tainted or flys away. We know that it penetrates all things, and that it is in all forms of life, being the Spirit of the World. We hear stories of melting gold like ice, spontaneous germination, as well as miraculous healings.

Yet in this work, it is the Holy Spirit's property of penetration that should be of most concern to the artist. For you see, due to the fact that Our Light can penetrate glass, it can go where air cannot. Because it can penetrate earth, it can go where light cannot. Because it can penetrate lead, it can go where radiation cannot. Because it can penetrate copper, it can go where RF waves cannot.

And here we find our vessel. In the place where nothing else is. For what is in the place in which nothing else is? Simply, the only thing that can get there; Spiritus Mundi.

Yet how, in the empty place which is our vessel, shall we condense something so subtle it can penetrate lead, steel, and copper?

If you have made it this far, then you know that it is with the use of a particular magnet.

Now this magnet has been the subject of a hundred books. And in reality, it is not one specific thing. Should we find our magnet in a grotto, or perhaps at the bottom of an oak tree? Either way, I'm sure that condensing this sacred moisture will find you well, for even without our hidden substances, she still awaits you, and in the gentle heat of a mothers touch, she will be yours.

And then, what more need be said, seeing we know what it is we seek. And now, we know where to find it. Where nothing else is. Deliquescence of these meditations will do good for your mind. Find peace in them. Find the stone. And may we dine, with our loved ones, and with the poor.

Amen.

elixirmixer
08-05-2017, 10:28 PM
Okay. My work into creating the stone has officially begun.

Now... No ones ever really explained to me how to make the stone, (no surprises there) and I don't understand at all really the allegory of the Toad and dragon so that's really not going to be much help to us.

There are many ways to create the philosophers stone, some use a particular array of salts called The Hand of the Philosophers, a deeply encrypted symbol, for the sons of art, assisting to explain the compilation of mineral stones.

We will not be doing that.

There is also the very interesting subject called the Sophilic Hydrolith, the Water stone of the wise. While being quite universal, however, this stone I expect would lack te potency that this artist is seeking.

And then of course, the purist method, pure SM, one flask - one matter ect, that matures itself into the stone via auto-feedback mechanisms.

HOWEVER; as we can see, there is a great diversity in our art, there are more than one way to skin a cat, and in the I treats of both TIME and POTENCY, I have decided to design my own hybrid method of creating the true Elixir.

An this is my method:
Take pure SM, add to 0.1gram of pulvis Solaris, drop that straight into mineralised green gold crystals (my interpretation of the green lion)

Circulate, an as vapours thicken and lessen, slowly increase the fire, until all has coagulated and resists a decent heat.

That is the plan!!!

Now I know what your thinking: Elixirmixer is dreaming again and saying he's going to do all this stuff which he's never going to do....

And most of the time, you'd be right, HOWEVER, many things are happening at this stage to facilitate my mission, ad I will be posting some photos today of my first attempts at creating PULVIS SOLARIS.

Cool ey? Stay tuned ;)

Kiorionis
08-05-2017, 11:13 PM
Quite cool :)

Can't wait!

elixirmixer
08-06-2017, 02:09 AM
The weather hasnt permitted the first trial. And it was looking like such a good day this morning...

elixirmixer
08-07-2017, 12:43 AM
Well now ...Mr. Mixer

It sounds like you have been reading quite a lot.

I wouldn't agree 100% with what you are saying, but I can see that the reading
is connecting some more neurons.

This time next week the story will be slightly different again and it's amazing how quickly our minds can accept new info and work to reason it.

Read, Pray, Meditate.
That's my day planned out.

You have a good one too.

It's funny, I'm just going back over this thread and re-reading, and it's amazing how many mistakes I've goin in what was my interpretation only some months ago...

I've quoted Mr. Black here to point out that to the intitated eye, these things are "obvious" as it was for Mr. Black to observe my changes, improvements and mistakes.

I know now that I really don't understand putrefaction very well and my previous contemplations are not based in any experiential value.

There is still so much I don't know about this process... Yet I've learnt more than I ever expected to learn since studying these forums...

What were the great Egyptian kings, doing with all their time and resources?

Making SM!!!

Not cloning there own personal celebrity sex army.

They were evolving their souls by trying to replace their own body weight in SM and pulvis Solaris.

Therefore; what should I e doig with my time and resources??

I fired my army. :cool:

Schmuldvich
08-07-2017, 02:45 AM
It's funny, I'm just going back over this thread and re-reading, and it's amazing how many mistakes I've goin in what was my interpretation only some months ago...

to the intitated eye, these things are "obvious"

I know now that I really don't understand putrefaction very well

There is still so much I don't know about this process... Yet I've learnt more than I ever expected to learn since studying these forums...

They were evolving their souls by trying to replace their own body weight in SM and pulvis Solaris.

Therefore; what should I be doing with my time and resources??

You should be taking every second of your free time to read the words of the Sages!

This list of Alchemy texts is a good place to start: http://www.rexresearch.com/alchindx.htm
Reading texts pre-1800's is what I would suggest.
Read as many per day as your eyes can endure.

You are unemployed, have minimal obligations, and should be reading at least 3 or 4 of these treatises a day for the next couple of months until you have a better understanding of our Art before you ever attempt to commence the Great Work.

You will never prepare the Philosopher's Stone until you comprehend what the Ancients wrote.

As you point out above, you still do not understand our Putrefaction.

You must understand this before you begin, elixirmixer. If you do not understand how our Putrefaction works or what our Putrefaction is you will get absolutely nowhere; there is no way around this fact. Putrefaction is the open entrance to the closed palace of the king!

If you understood what spiritus mundi is (like you claim), you would need nothing else. But you do not understand spiritus mundi. Quit fooling yourself. You do not know what spiritus mundi truly is and you will never ever "condense" spiritus mundi the way any of the recent posts on this message board claim to...NEVER! I have warned you before and I will do so again here in the open, the number of people on Alchemy Forums who know what they are talking about (regarding the Philosopher's Stone) is sparse. Intelligent minds are abundant here, experts and scholars in other areas, but lacking a fundamental understanding of our Art.

Alchemy is easy. Alchemists describe it as women's work and child's play.

Our Processes are not hard to rightfully perform. Remember that people during the 1100's and before were doing this and succeeding with exceedingly little technology or resources available like we have today. This alone should be a wake-up call to you. Unlearn everything you think you have learned here. Start fresh, putrefy your old ways, separate the dross from the truth, seal your mind with comprehensive wisdom, ascend to heights you never thought were possible, combine Patience with Time, and you will obtain our Universal Solvent. This is the only way.

Without our Water you will get nowhere. This is the first Gate you must open before you advance to the Inner Gates of this cryptically enigmatic Art.

The texts will show you the Way...the ONE Way...our True and Natural Path. Spend time getting acquainted with the volume of texts available today.


Please know I am trying to help you (in my own way), as I have been doing since the day you started posting here.
I want you to succeed.

black
08-07-2017, 03:54 AM
You should be taking every second of your free time to read the words of the Sages!

This list of Alchemy texts is a good place to start: http://www.rexresearch.com/alchindx.htm
Reading texts pre-1800's is what I would suggest.
Read as many per day as your eyes can endure.

You are unemployed, have minimal obligations, and should be reading at least 3 or 4 of these treatises a day for the next couple of months until you have a better understanding of our Art before you ever attempt to commence the Great Work.

You will never prepare the Philosopher's Stone until you comprehend what the Ancients wrote.

As you point out above, you still do not understand our Putrefaction.

You must understand this before you begin, elixirmixer. If you do not understand how our Putrefaction works or what our Putrefaction is you will get absolutely nowhere; there is no way around this fact. Putrefaction is the open entrance to the closed palace of the king!

If you understood what spiritus mundi is (like you claim), you would need nothing else. But you do not understand spiritus mundi. Quit fooling yourself. You do not know what spiritus mundi truly is and you will never ever "condense" spiritus mundi the way any of the recent posts on this message board claim to...NEVER! I have warned you before and I will do so again here in the open, the number of people on Alchemy Forums who know what they are talking about (regarding the Philosopher's Stone) is sparse. Intelligent minds are abundant here, experts and scholars in other areas, but lacking a fundamental understanding of our Art.

Alchemy is easy. Alchemists describe it as women's work and child's play.

Our Processes are not hard to rightfully perform. Remember that people during the 1100's and before were doing this and succeeding with exceedingly little technology or resources available like we have today. This alone should be a wake-up call to you. Unlearn everything you think you have learned here. Start fresh, putrefy your old ways, separate the dross from the truth, seal your mind with comprehensive wisdom, ascend to heights you never thought were possible, combine Patience with Time, and you will obtain our Universal Solvent. This is the only way.

Without our Water you will get nowhere. This is the first Gate you must open before you advance to the Inner Gates of this cryptically enigmatic Art.

The texts will show you the Way...the ONE Way...our True and Natural Path. Spend time getting acquainted with the volume of texts available today.


Please know I am trying to help you (in my own way), as I have been doing since the day you started posting here.
I want you to succeed.


Yes Mr. Schmuldvich what you write here is most true and correct to my belief.

This advice should not be taken lightly by anyone seriously pursuing Alchemy.

The only other way to the Great Work is if some Master told you what to do, and
I am sure that a student would have to spend many, many years studying with a
Master before he/she is given any Keys to enter the Great Work.

I was told quite a lot of years ago that if I learned Patience and how to Relax
then I would have everything. I'm still working on it !!!!

These are some of the essential traits needed for the Work.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 06:55 AM
Yes Mr. Schmuldvich what you write here is most true and correct to my belief.

This advice should not be taken lightly by anyone seriously pursuing Alchemy.

The only other way to the Great Work is if some Master told you what to do, and
I am sure that a student would have to spend many, many years studying with a
Master before he/she is given any Keys to enter the Great Work.

I was told quite a lot of years ago that if I learned Patience and how to Relax
then I would have everything. I'm still working on it !!!!

These are some of the essential traits needed for the Work.

Whether this is true or not is meaningless. I have not achieved either the stone or SM but I could easily prattle on in the exactly same manner as given above here. The only purpose served is narcissism because it would be easy for a person 'up their own arse' agreeing wholeheartedly to say the same thing. As I mentioned on another thread this kind of thing is common on various forums on diverse subjects and often serves as a psychological crutch.

A telling sign this is patronising narcissism is that no mention is made (except by me) of practical resources their good points or failings. E.G. Steve Kalec's Vimeo videos no-one says a word about them good or bad, what they mught lack, what they are useful for yet this in the field of Alchemy this is historic and only possible in the modern day thanks to the internet. Instead we have 'read the old texts daily and meditate'. Whilst this has some advantages anyone can say that bullshit, effectively nothing is contributed and I genuinely feel this is nothing more than a patronising type of on-line forum narcissism.

black
08-07-2017, 08:41 AM
Whether this is true or not is meaningless. I have not achieved either the stone or SM but I could easily prattle on in the exactly same manner as given above here. The only purpose served is narcissism because it would be easy for a person 'up their own arse' agreeing wholeheartedly to say the same thing. As I mentioned on another thread this kind of thing is common on various forums on diverse subjects and often serves as a psychological crutch.

A telling sign this is patronising narcissism is that no mention is made (except by me) of practical resources their good points or failings. E.G. Steve Kalec's Vimeo videos no-one says a word about them good or bad, what they mught lack, what they are useful for yet this in the field of Alchemy this is historic and only possible in the modern day thanks to the internet. Instead we have 'read the old texts daily and meditate'. Whilst this has some advantages anyone can say that bullshit, effectively nothing is contributed and I genuinely feel this is nothing more than a patronising type of on-line forum narcissism.

Over the many years that I have studied alchemy I have not become angry or vindictive
towards those few gifted Master Alchemists that could have private messaged me with
the full instructions on how to make the Philosophers Stone.

I am sure they are out there somewhere.

They have (the master alchemists) the knowledge and understanding that this Great Work is a very personal quest, and by freely handing out these keys they would be depriving the student of personal growth and so much more.

What has plagued me over the years is the frustration of how stupid and slow I am
to grasp clearly the True Meaning from the books that I study.

I am not trying to be patronizing or narcissistic.

Only trying to push the point that unwearied study is so very important to gaining even
the faintest understanding of Alchemy.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 09:44 AM
The above is nothing more than a smokescreen. Any person (including myself) could apply to join this site and having got through the filtering turn up and say exactly the same thing and all the other stuff previous, pasting texts that are well known and have good commentaries. That person could pretend they have achieved things but haven't and keep going in this manner for years. The post is therefore homogenous with all the other stuff.

In magic often people sell spells offering that the customer could gain huge wealth etc but the obvious point is if they could do that why are they selling magical services they could have just done a spell and be chilling in the Bahamas etc so clearly caveat emptor. It concerns me that people pretending on-line to have the stone are doing similar and are hoping to be approached privately (pm) and offered money by a desperate person who has a terminal disease for example.

Against who exactly is the anger and vindictiveness here? I see some who actually post practical material on-line and these may not be the philosophers stone or SM but it is useful stuff and free. These folks I think have integrity they show plenty for a person to progress not just say go read a bunch of old Alchemy books and meditate. People who show nothing and just paste tracts of text I suspect are often nothing more than armchair Alchemists who go on-line and pretend stuff they could never do, not even showing lesser works to demonstrate their integrity.

black
08-07-2017, 10:24 AM
The above is nothing more than a smokescreen. Any person (including myself) could apply to join this site and having got through the filtering turn up and say exactly the same thing and all the other stuff previous, pasting texts that are well known and have good commentaries. That person could pretend they have achieved things but haven't and keep going in this manner for years. The post is therefore homogenous with all the other stuff.

In magic often people sell spells offering that the customer could gain huge wealth etc but the obvious point is if they could do that why are they selling magical services they could have just done a spell and be chilling in the Bahamas etc so clearly caveat emptor. It concerns me that people pretending on-line to have the stone are doing similar and are hoping to be approached privately (pm) and offered money by a desperate person who has a terminal disease for example.

Against who exactly is the anger and vindictiveness here? I see some who actually post practical material on-line and these may not be the philosophers stone or SM but it is useful stuff and free. These folks I think have integrity they show plenty for a person to progress not just say go read a bunch of old Alchemy books and meditate. People who show nothing and just paste tracts of text I suspect are often nothing more than armchair Alchemists who go on-line and pretend stuff they could never do, not even showing lesser works to demonstrate their integrity.

It's not about what any of us can get from other people or what they might have or say they have.

What other people or Alchemists or Magicians have is irrelevant.

The Alchemic quest is about what each person learns and how that person evolves.

It appears to me that as each of us evolve we gain more understanding.

I believe that this evolution of self cannot be given but that each person must attain it for themselves.

But I could be wrong.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 10:38 AM
Again what you say has potential veracity but is absolutely useless and all to often is in the service of narcissism and the armchair Alchemist.

Surely an advanced practitioner such as yourself could give practical examples of aspects of work which are interesting but don't revealed SM or the stone. But people like you never do it's always the same pasting tracts of old Alchemy books and pretending you have achieved mastery. I think someone who has achieved mastery would not do this nor make claims they are not prepared verify, they would either keep silent or offer lesser things to stimulate progress in others. Not quote from old books, say read at least 4 of these each day and meditate then someone else come on-line and agree (here here rhubarb rhubarb).

elixirmixer
08-07-2017, 10:58 AM
I wish i had the easy comfortable schedule your referring too, alas, children are somewhat more demanding then even the Australian government so it doesn't leave too much room for this endless tome gorge your referring too, although i have had them and recently a lot with Hollandus.

So while begging for answers, and claiming it was for the sake of a broader understanding of perspectives, now you subtly impliy that YOU are one of THE art. (Schmuldvichich)

Of which in itself directly implies that YOU have some particular METHOD of condjuring THE stone....

So then, questions man... what say YOU about our spirit? I could pull a million quotes from yourself along the lines of "What is it really or how is it created"....

Do you, or do you not know how this substance is created? do you even believe in it since you seem to doubt others who claim to work with it...

Im sure more reading is required, what do you recommend?

Putrefaction.. lets see:

Our Mercury is born of Putrefaction (isnt it cool how the term mercury can be used to mean a variety of different stages of the work!?)

Putrefaction is a process of densinging, in which subtle matter can release its feces, where it dies, and regenerates new life.

I did believe that matter required the removal of the fire element in order to putrefy however now im thinking that, that could be difficult to achieve.

My questions are, what stage does this apply too? What f'ing matter are you talking about since your all excited by the different rocks people post? How do you make the spirit then you bastard if ya so sure that im wrong, or even, how do you think that i think im suppose to make it, since i dont believe you've at all broken down my forum encrypting, and you would be quite bold to try to plot your own against the great Mixer.

I believe you know your alchemy well, however, as ive said, there are potentially an infinite amount of stones, and therefore the possibility of an infinite amount of 'paths' you could be lost down, while claiming the only one.

Im not sure if ive made this clear enough yet but if not here tis; The only stone that "I" consider IMO to be the absolute TRUE stone, is the stone created from spiritus mundi alone, which Andro has shared quite openly in the spiritus mundi thread, therefore, you hipeing up at every stone we turn over makes me consider that your absolutely full of massive turds Mr. Schmuldvich and that your understanding has just as many places to grow as my own.

I dont dig this 'first matter' being a substance BS. Gold is fine for a source of sulfur, Silver also )if prepared well(

Axis is right, in that its really hard to tell when someone is talking bullshit or not, and thats not to be rude but just that it is difficult since many of us do not want to be naive.

What is it actually Schmuldvich that you think i am missing that i need to be hunting these old tomes
?

elixirmixer
08-07-2017, 11:23 AM
My wife told me I'm getting drunk and disorderly, so ill leave the rest for next time, HOWEVER

IF there is any one here that DOES want to empower elixirmixer to save the world by teaching him anything practical, or even decisively theoretical! then my ears are all ears :cool: but yeah, as Axis points out, and as we are all aware, talk is cheap.

Shit, wifes coming back, gotta go!

Schmuldvich
08-07-2017, 01:28 PM
Ask yourself this question, elixirmixer, "Would I rather tome gorge for two months,
or would I rather spend two years & tons of money aimlessly achieving nothing?"

See, to me the question is easy to answer, but your answer might be different than mine...



I wish i had the easy comfortable schedule your referring too, alas, children are somewhat more demanding then even the Australian government so it doesn't leave too much room for this endless tome gorge your referring too, although i have had them and recently a lot with Hollandus.
Now how bad do you really want this? If Alchemy your true passion, which is seems it is, every waking second of your life not dedicated to your wife & child should be committed to studying Alchemy.



So while begging for answers, and claiming it was for the sake of a broader understanding of perspectives, now you subtly impliy that YOU are one of THE art.
I was not claiming my inquiries were for the sake of broader understanding, I was telling that my inquiries were proposed to elicit fruitful discussion to see who here knows what.



Of which in itself directly implies that YOU have some particular METHOD of condjuring THE stone....
It is not a particular method. The Path I follow is the ONE and ONLY Method that will produce our Universal Solvent that successfully places the Philosopher's Stone in one's possession.



So then, questions man... what say YOU about our spirit? I could pull a million quotes from yourself along the lines of "What is it really or how is it created"....
Our Spirit is likened to the tears of Diana. Our Spirit is Universal. It is the sole subject that does the work for us and carries out the Processes outlined by the Sages. This is not a Work of human hands.



Do you, or do you not know how this substance is created? do you even believe in it since you seem to doubt others who claim to work with it...Im sure more reading is required, what do you recommend?
Yes, I know how this Substance is created. I have seen it with my own eyes. It arises from our Matter. It is a tangible substance capable of enlivening our Matter to plusquam perfection, truly.

I already gave you a list of all the treatises you should read. Start there. Many more texts are available once you get done reading. R.A.M.S. would be the next place I would recommend after you finish the myriad of texts freely available online.

When you finish reading the R.A.M.S. Collection and every text available online reach out to me and I will provide you with more texts not readily accessible, but by then you should have a firm grip on our Art and already have a sound foundation to stand upon.



Putrefaction.. lets see: Our Mercury is born of Putrefaction (isnt it cool how the term mercury can be used to mean a variety of different stages of the work!?) Putrefaction is a process of densinging, in which subtle matter can release its feces, where it dies, and regenerates new life. I did believe that matter required the removal of the fire element in order to putrefy however now im thinking that, that could be difficult to achieve.


http://i.imgur.com/5Mclr0i.jpg

Putrefaction is the breaking down of a substance. It is the Key to Generation. It is the 'solve' in the Solve et Coagula phrase you are familiar with. Without this process we can achieve nothing in our Art. It is a necessary Stage that must take place in order to enter the open entrance to the closed palace of the king.

The texts that you are so reluctant to read explain Putrefaction in excruciating detail. Putrefaction is one of the most spoken of Stages of our Art. Coincidentally it is one of the first Processes one must master before progressing to a later Stage.

"Verbum Disimissum" (1480) explains it well...


"Black colour, which is first and it is the key of the Beginning of the Work. This mass thus Blackened is the Key and sign of perfect invention."

"Donum Dei" (1475) gives more detail...


"Here is required by how long time the stone is to be turned into blackness and what is the figure of true solution of the stone when blackness appeareth the first time it is figure of putrefaction and solution of the stone, but when it is vanished away and clearly gone it is a sign of the whole putrefaction of the stone and of the dissolution thereof, or else it is demanded if the black clouds endure in the foresaid stone by the space of 40 days, I answer sometimes it doth more, and sometimes less, this variation chanceth of the variety and quantity of the medicine, and according to the wisdom of the worker, wherefore the more quantity requireth more time, and the less the less."

"Zoraster's Cave (1667) encourages us...


"When in the work blacknesse appears, know that thou hast found the right way of working. Then rejoice, for God has given thee a very Great and pretious Gift."

"Hydropyrographum Hermeticum" (1680) provides us with rhyme...


"Take fresh, pure, quick, white and clear,
Tye him hands and heels so near,
With a most puissant cord and yoke,
That he may be mortified and choked.
Reduce him by his like homogeneous Nature,
To his first Being, or primogeneous feature,
Within the close Chamber or House of Putrefaction,
According to Dame Nature’s indication:
Then you will have a living spiritual Fountain,
Flowing bright and clear from Heaven’s Mountain,
Feeding on its proper flesh and blood,
Therewithall increasing to an endless Flood."

"The Root Of The World" (1250) speaks more of Putrefaction...


"The first work is the reducing the body into water, that is, into mercury. And this the philosophers called dissolution, which is the foundation of the whole art. This dissolution makes the body of an evident liquidity, and absolute subtility; and this is done by a gentle grinding, and a soft and continued assation or digestion."

"A Chymical Treatise" (1299) furnishes us with more understanding...


"The first word in this great work is the bodies transmutation into Mercury and this the Philosophers have called a dissolution. And this Artificiall and ingenious dissolveing is the bulwark of this art. Hence saith Rosarey, Unlesse you dissolve the bodies, Your Labor is in vaine."



My questions are, what stage does this apply too? What f'ing matter are you talking about since your all excited by the different rocks people post? How do you make the spirit then you bastard if ya so sure that im wrong, or even, how do you think that i think im suppose to make it, since i dont believe you've at all broken down my forum encrypting, and you would be quite bold to try to plot your own against the great Mixer.
The answers are all in the texts you are unwilling to read.



I believe you know your alchemy well, however, as ive said, there are potentially an infinite amount of stones, and therefore the possibility of an infinite amount of 'paths' you could be lost down, while claiming the only one.
This is a misunderstanding of Alchemy on your part. There is not an infinite amount of stones, far from it. Possibility of an infinite amount of paths is possible...but not True. There is ONE Path to the Philosopher's Stone and it is a straight and narrow road that few travel.



Im not sure if ive made this clear enough yet but if not here tis; The only stone that "I" consider IMO to be the absolute TRUE stone, is the stone created from spiritus mundi alone, which Andro has shared quite openly in the spiritus mundi thread, therefore, you hipeing up at every stone we turn over makes me consider that your absolutely full of massive turds Mr. Schmuldvich and that your understanding has just as many places to grow as my own. I dont dig this 'first matter' being a substance BS. Gold is fine for a source of sulfur, Silver also (if prepared well)
Fantastic, elixirmixer. I am happy to hear your opinions! It does not matter what you 'dig' or not; Truth is Truth. Gold is a fine source of Sulphur, and silver also, but only if you possess our Universal Solvent. There is no way around this. Gold is a dead substance and completely useless in our Art...and so is silver...unless you have our Universal Solvent.



Axis is right, in that its really hard to tell when someone is talking bullshit or not
No...it's not. You do it all the time. Once someone's eyes are Opened and they sincerely have the ability to See, this and many other things become clear. All obscurity will flee from you and it will be uncomplicated and easy to sift the wheat from the chaff.



What is it actually Schmuldvich that you think i am missing that i need to be hunting these old tomes
EVERYTHING.

--------------------------------------------------


You should be taking every second of your free time to read the words of the Sages!

This list of Alchemy texts is a good place to start: http://www.rexresearch.com/alchindx.htm
Reading texts pre-1800's is what I would suggest.
Read as many per day as your eyes can endure.

You are unemployed, have minimal obligations, and should be reading at least 3 or 4 of these treatises a day for the next couple of months until you have a better understanding of our Art before you ever attempt to commence the Great Work.

You will never prepare the Philosopher's Stone until you comprehend what the Ancients wrote.

As you point out above, you still do not understand our Putrefaction.

You must understand this before you begin, elixirmixer. If you do not understand how our Putrefaction works or what our Putrefaction is you will get absolutely nowhere; there is no way around this fact. Putrefaction is the open entrance to the closed palace of the king!

If you understood what spiritus mundi is (like you claim), you would need nothing else. But you do not understand spiritus mundi. Quit fooling yourself. You do not know what spiritus mundi truly is and you will never ever "condense" spiritus mundi the way any of the recent posts on this message board claim to...NEVER! I have warned you before and I will do so again here in the open, the number of people on Alchemy Forums who know what they are talking about (regarding the Philosopher's Stone) is sparse. Intelligent minds are abundant here, experts and scholars in other areas, but lacking a fundamental understanding of our Art.

Alchemy is easy. Alchemists describe it as women's work and child's play.

Our Processes are not hard to rightfully perform. Remember that people during the 1100's and before were doing this and succeeding with exceedingly little technology or resources available like we have today. This alone should be a wake-up call to you. Unlearn everything you think you have learned here. Start fresh, putrefy your old ways, separate the dross from the truth, seal your mind with comprehensive wisdom, ascend to heights you never thought were possible, combine Patience with Time, and you will obtain our Universal Solvent. This is the only way.

Without our Water you will get nowhere. This is the first Gate you must open before you advance to the Inner Gates of this cryptically enigmatic Art.

The texts will show you the Way...the ONE Way...our True and Natural Path. Spend time getting acquainted with the volume of texts available today.


Please know I am trying to help you (in my own way), as I have been doing since the day you started posting here.
I want you to succeed.


Yes Mr. Schmuldvich what you write here is most true and correct to my belief.

This advice should not be taken lightly by anyone seriously pursuing Alchemy.

The only other way to the Great Work is if some Master told you what to do, and
I am sure that a student would have to spend many, many years studying with a
Master before he/she is given any Keys to enter the Great Work.

I was told quite a lot of years ago that if I learned Patience and how to Relax
then I would have everything. I'm still working on it !!!!

These are some of the essential traits needed for the Work.


Whether this is true or not is meaningless. I have not achieved either the stone or SM but I could easily prattle on in the exactly same manner as given above here. The only purpose served is narcissism because it would be easy for a person 'up their own arse' agreeing wholeheartedly to say the same thing. As I mentioned on another thread this kind of thing is common on various forums on diverse subjects and often serves as a psychological crutch.

A telling sign this is patronising narcissism is that no mention is made (except by me) of practical resources their good points or failings. E.G. Steve Kalec's Vimeo videos no-one says a word about them good or bad, what they mught lack, what they are useful for yet this in the field of Alchemy this is historic and only possible in the modern day thanks to the internet. Instead we have 'read the old texts daily and meditate'. Whilst this has some advantages anyone can say that bullshit, effectively nothing is contributed and I genuinely feel this is nothing more than a patronising type of on-line forum narcissism.


Over the many years that I have studied alchemy I have not become angry or vindictive
towards those few gifted Master Alchemists that could have private messaged me with
the full instructions on how to make the Philosophers Stone.

I am sure they are out there somewhere.

They have (the master alchemists) the knowledge and understanding that this Great Work is a very personal quest, and by freely handing out these keys they would be depriving the student of personal growth and so much more.

What has plagued me over the years is the frustration of how stupid and slow I am
to grasp clearly the True Meaning from the books that I study.

I am not trying to be patronizing or narcissistic.

Only trying to push the point that unwearied study is so very important to gaining even
the faintest understanding of Alchemy.


The above is nothing more than a smokescreen. Any person (including myself) could apply to join this site and having got through the filtering turn up and say exactly the same thing and all the other stuff previous, pasting texts that are well known and have good commentaries. That person could pretend they have achieved things but haven't and keep going in this manner for years. The post is therefore homogenous with all the other stuff.

In magic often people sell spells offering that the customer could gain huge wealth etc but the obvious point is if they could do that why are they selling magical services they could have just done a spell and be chilling in the Bahamas etc so clearly caveat emptor. It concerns me that people pretending on-line to have the stone are doing similar and are hoping to be approached privately (pm) and offered money by a desperate person who has a terminal disease for example.

Against who exactly is the anger and vindictiveness here? I see some who actually post practical material on-line and these may not be the philosophers stone or SM but it is useful stuff and free. These folks I think have integrity they show plenty for a person to progress not just say go read a bunch of old Alchemy books and meditate. People who show nothing and just paste tracts of text I suspect are often nothing more than armchair Alchemists who go on-line and pretend stuff they could never do, not even showing lesser works to demonstrate their integrity.


It's not about what any of us can get from other people or what they might have or say they have.

What other people or Alchemists or Magicians have is irrelevant.

The Alchemic quest is about what each person learns and how that person evolves.

It appears to me that as each of us evolve we gain more understanding.

I believe that this evolution of self cannot be given but that each person must attain it for themselves.

But I could be wrong.


Again what you say has potential veracity but is absolutely useless and all to often is in the service of narcissism and the armchair Alchemist.

Surely an advanced practitioner such as yourself could give practical examples of aspects of work which are interesting but don't revealed SM or the stone. But people like you never do it's always the same pasting tracts of old Alchemy books and pretending you have achieved mastery. I think someone who has achieved mastery would not do this nor make claims they are not prepared verify, they would either keep silent or offer lesser things to stimulate progress in others. Not quote from old books, say read at least 4 of these each day and meditate then someone else come on-line and agree (here here rhubarb rhubarb).

Axis, narcissism is excessive interest in oneself...

What I am doing here is far from narcissism; I am helping a Brother of the Art (in my own way). Selflessly taking the time to post and presenting guideposts with proddings that aid the honest Seeker such as Elixirmixer is not narcissistic by any means.

Anyone can say anything ('bullshit' as you put it...), but it is another thing to back up one's words with proof of Understanding as I have done here.

Never do I post my own Work publicly on the Internet. This is an exception.


http://i.imgur.com/buitv6F.jpg

Of course what I post here today could be fraudulent...This could be black ink in water, or something else altogether, who knows what it is? but to those who know Truth and have a legitimate understanding of Alchemy, the images I provide today serve as irrefutable proof even to the skeptic that I know what I speak of.

---------------------------------------------------

My wife told me I'm getting drunk and disorderly, so ill leave the rest for next time, HOWEVER

talk is cheap.

Shit, wifes coming back, gotta go!

It would greatly aid in your search, elixirmixer, if you abstain from drinking alcohol and sober up.

JDP
08-07-2017, 04:52 PM
A telling sign this is patronising narcissism is that no mention is made (except by me) of practical resources their good points or failings. E.G. Steve Kalec's Vimeo videos no-one says a word about them good or bad, what they mught lack, what they are useful for yet this in the field of Alchemy this is historic and only possible in the modern day thanks to the internet.

I am familiar with Steve Kalec, for a good number of years we have been members of a couple of alchemy forums and groups and exchanged many messages in those places. I can tell you that Steve has not succeeded in preparing the Stone. And he never has claimed to have done so either. He is really more of a "spagyrist".

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 05:24 PM
Steve Kalec can speak for himself I am not a student of his and it makes no difference what he may or may not claim. Personally I appreciate his Vimeo contributions, would that other people followed his example and let the labwork speak for itself rather then some guff about reading 4 Alchemy books a day and then meditating.

Illen A. Cluf
08-07-2017, 05:35 PM
Steve Kalec can speak for himself I am not a student of his and it makes no difference what he may or may not claim. Personally I appreciate his Vimeo contributions, would that other people followed his example and let the labwork speak for itself rather then some guff about reading 4 Alchemy books a day and then meditating.

Proper labwork is impossible without first understanding what the alchemists actually meant when they wrote what they did. That indeed DOES require endless reading and comprehension. There are numerous alchemists who stress the importance of reading over and over and over again. There's even a famous Latin expression that they often like to quote: "Lege, lege, relege, labora et invenies" ("Read, read, read again and you shall find").

The biggest myth that modern alchemists have spread is that one can read a handful of books and then begin the labwork immediately, by following the literal directions and never studying again. These people hail labworkers as heroes and look down on those who spend the effort to do exactly as the ancients have instructed - read! Don't just read the practical parts of the texts, but deeply study the theoretical parts as well.

The labwork is simple women's or children's work. It is used to prepare the matter only. Nature does the rest. Without understanding how Nature does its work, the labwork is quite useless. Understanding how Nature works requires a very deep philosophical understanding. That is why the ancient alchemists were called "Philosophers" rather than Practioners. And yes, "Putrefaction" is an extremely important 'philosophical' term. It does not at all mean putrefaction as we understand it today. Like so many terms that the philosophers used, this term has a philosophical or symbolic meaning only. Putrefaction as we understand it today occurs in the vegetable and animal kingdoms. When applied to the Mineral Kingdom, it has a symbolic attribution, since part of the process and observation resembles that of the putrefaction in the other two kingdoms.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 06:05 PM
True Labwork is the outer activity which must be accompanied by a personal spiritual unfoldment and understanding of Alchemy. If I were to look at thousands of posts on this forum I would be advised of this in many many ways, of the spiritual component of Alchemy. Yet Illen A. Cluf you write as if I might not have realised this or indeed have never posted about such concepts on this forum myself. Patronising only really works if someone has yet to discuss the particular issues of a topic in any way.

As I have said previous reading Alchemy texts and meditating is probably a good thing, so now that this has been mentioned so many times on this forum would someone like to add something practical as well. I mean in the practical Alchemy section of this forum how little actual practical stuff is present. Just this hey go read and meditate which is just a load of pseudo Alchemists doing a circle jerk possibly.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 06:35 PM
A salient point here I think:

I am reminded of how traditional Kung Fu masters train students in Hong Kong. They simply do the form allowing the student to observe, occasionally they may turn up and instruct the student to practice and correct them, but it can be years between visits. Traditional Kung Fu as I'm sure many are aware has a strong emphasis on the spiritual as well as the combative.

Illen A. Cluf
08-07-2017, 06:55 PM
The only way that someone can positively contribute by posting practical work, is if that work actually leads to the production of the Stone. Anything else is mostly a waste of time and effort. Thus, when one actually begins to post practical information directly related to real alchemy, it should be understood that that person has fully comprehended what the alchemists wrote, and is prepared to offer insights or observations that could help others.

I personally doubt that there are more than a small handful of people in the world today (if any) who have actually come that close. The rest of the practical work that has been offered by modern "alchemists" is only work that has become a trendy concept of what so many others before them have thought to be the truth, but which actually never led anywhere (for example the antimony path). By appearing to practice these trendy and well-tried approaches, and showing their colorful photos of the lab work, they begin to be admired by their peers, and become part of their social circles. This gathering and condoning of these concepts only encourages others to join in expanding these concepts even further. Soon a whole new approach to alchemy is borne that has gone far astray of the original teachings.

Thus, in my opinion, at this stage in my own study, I'm FAR more interested in the theoretical and philosophical discussions of how Nature works, than in any number of lab pictures from the so-called "practical" work. It's like putting the cart before the horse, when the cart does not even have wheels.

But unfortunately, I know from many years of involvement, that I'm almost alone in this perspective, and have been often criticized for not engaging in this erroneous lab work which demonstrably leads nowhere. While I'm being accused of wasting my time reading and studying very old texts, I see no results in those who forsake this study in order to join the trendy lab groups or who follow some nonsensical "insight" that they may have that has no connection to what the ancients taught. I keep asking myself, "who is really wasting their time?" in terms of actually getting any closer to producing the Stone.

Hellin Hermetist
08-07-2017, 07:13 PM
I already gave you a list of all the treatises you should read. Start there. Many more texts are available once you get done reading.

So, according to you, all those English translations we can find in the internet for free (a myriad of texts as you mentioned) are genuine alchemical treatises written by real adepts - possessors of the Stone.


R.A.M.S. would be the next place I would recommend after you finish the myriad of texts freely available online. When you finish reading the R.A.M.S. Collection and every text available online reach out to me and I will provide you with more texts not readily accessible, but by then you should have a firm grip on our Art and already have a sound foundation to stand upon.

Ok. At RAMS at least you shall find a myriad of different ways and practices to create the Stone. From plant stones of wine and other vegetable substances of Isaac Hollandus, to the Stone which use as essential solvent nitric acid combined with corrosive sublimate of Baron Russenstein-Lambspring manuscript, and form there to Philalethes-Starkey stone which use as essential solvent metallic mercury animated with starry martian regulus of antimony, path described with the greatest detail from the anonymous author of Coelum Philosophorum. Anyone then who has studied the works of that collection, can clearly see that the authors of the treatises contained there do not agree one with the other (dont even think about tell me that Hollandus in his Vegetable Opera, Baron Rusenstein or the author of Coelum Philosophorum use allegorical speech). As you believe that there is one true path, one true process and one true stone, and at the same time you propose to someone else to study RAMS collection, in which, as I showed, he will find many differnet paths, processes and stones described, the fallacy in your analysis becomes quite clear to everyone.

Axismundi000
08-07-2017, 07:56 PM
The only way that someone can positively contribute by posting practical work, is if that work actually leads to the production of the Stone. Anything else is mostly a waste of time and effort. Thus, when one actually begins to post practical information directly related to real alchemy, it should be understood that that person has fully comprehended what the alchemists wrote, and is prepared to offer insights or observations that could help others.

I personally doubt that there are more than a small handful of people in the world today (if any) who have actually come that close. The rest of the practical work that has been offered by modern "alchemists" is only work that has become a trendy concept of what so many others before them have thought to be the truth, but which actually never led anywhere (for example the antimony path). By appearing to practice these trendy and well-tried approaches, and showing their colorful photos of the lab work, they begin to be admired by their peers, and become part of their social circles. This gathering and condoning of these concepts only encourages others to join in expanding these concepts even further. Soon a whole new approach to alchemy is borne that has gone far astray of the original teachings.

Thus, in my opinion, at this stage in my own study, I'm FAR more interested in the theoretical and philosophical discussions of how Nature works, than in any number of lab pictures from the so-called "practical" work. It's like putting the cart before the horse, when the cart does not even have wheels.

But unfortunately, I know from many years of involvement, that I'm almost alone in this perspective, and have been often criticized for not engaging in this erroneous lab work which demonstrably leads nowhere. While I'm being accused of wasting my time reading and studying very old texts, I see no results in those who forsake this study in order to join the trendy lab groups or who follow some nonsensical "insight" that they may have that has no connection to what the ancients taught. I keep asking myself, "who is really wasting their time?" in terms of actually getting any closer to producing the Stone.

Thank you for your opinion which is perfectly understandable with so little actual practical material posted in this section of the forum.

elixirmixer
08-07-2017, 09:42 PM
Well, it seems we've got a lot of interest in the stone and practical works at this time.

GREAT!

I am going to take the bait here, because it certainly couldn't hurt to go through and read all my texts from start to finish all from scratch, as has been suggested.
EDIT: The last time I took this advice, I found the key to SM

Sobering up is definitly on the cards right now, due to:

My friend offering me a reward of honor if I quit with him
Andro said that marajiwana completly de-rails the human efforts to astral project
Franz Bardon's "Initiation into hermetics" is on its way in paperback form so that I can study it 'closer'
And now the guy with the crazy illuminati flower avatar has also said he will help more if i pull my finger out, so HERE GOES.

TODAY! will be my first sober day, no ciggies, no cones, no beers. period.

Honestly my vices rest in the realm of my lack of faith but with all the things happening lately, I feel closer than ever and very motivated.

-----------------------------------------------------

In regards to the issues of no practical in the practical, its just soooo true, and im one of the worst coulprets for saying im going to post my work and then never getting around to actually documenting it.

However, thats all going to change too. Ive got a lot of spagyrics that have to come out of incubation and I WILL
photograph all the action.

-----------------------------------------------------

Im pretty proud of some of my threads, but I'm especiially glad that THIS thread hit the 10,000 views :cool:

Awani
08-07-2017, 09:54 PM
...but I'm especiially glad that THIS thread hit the 10,000 views...

Oh, that's just me refreshing my browser.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

:p

Schmuldvich
08-07-2017, 10:50 PM
Inspiring post, Illen!


Proper labwork is impossible without first understanding what the alchemists actually meant when they wrote what they did. That indeed DOES require endless reading AND comprehension. There are numerous alchemists who stress the importance of reading over and over and over again.

There's even a famous Latin expression that they often like to quote: "Lege, lege, relege, labora et invenies" ("Read, read, read again and you shall find").

The biggest myth that modern alchemists have spread is that one can read a handful of books and then begin the labwork immediately, by following the literal directions and never studying again.

The labwork is simple women's or children's work. It is used to prepare the matter only. Nature does the rest.

Without understanding how Nature does its work, the labwork is quite useless.


The only way that someone can positively contribute by posting practical work, is if that work actually leads to the production of the Stone.

When one actually begins to post practical information directly related to real alchemy, it should be understood that that person has fully comprehended what the alchemists wrote, and is prepared to offer insights or observations that could help others.

At this stage in my own study, I'm FAR more interested in the theoretical and philosophical discussions of how Nature works...But unfortunately, I know from many years of involvement, that I'm almost alone in this perspective, and have been often criticized for not engaging in this erroneous lab work which demonstrably leads nowhere. While I'm being accused of wasting my time reading and studying very old texts, I see no results in those who forsake this study in order to join the trendy lab groups or who follow some nonsensical "insight" that they may have that has no connection to what the ancients taught. I keep asking myself, "who is really wasting their time?"


So, according to you, all those English translations we can find in the internet for free (a myriad of texts as you mentioned) are genuine alchemical treatises written by real adepts - possessors of the Stone. At RAMS at least you shall find a myriad of different ways and practices to create the Stone. You believe that there is one true path, one true process, and one true stone, and at the same time you propose to someone else to study RAMS collection, in which, as I showed, he will find many differnet paths, processes and stones described, the fallacy in your analysis becomes quite clear to everyone.
Hellin Hermetist,

These texts were not written to common people like you or I...please understand that they were written to Initiates, or as called by the old Authors, Sons of the Art. "Secret Teachings Of All Ages" describes this way of teaching as an acroamatic cipher.



The acroamatic cipher. The religious and philosophical writings of all nations abound with acroamatic cryptograms, that is, parables and allegories. The acroamatic is unique in that the document containing it may be translated or reprinted without affecting the cryptogram. Parables and allegories have been used since remote antiquity to present moral truths in an attractive and understandable manner. The acroamatic cryptogram is a pictorial cipher drawn in words and its symbolism must be so interpreted. The Old and New Testaments of the Jews, the writings of Plato and Aristotle, Homer's Odyssey and Iliad, Virgil's Æneid, The Metamorphosis of Apuleius, and Æsop's Fables are outstanding examples of acroamatic cryptography in which are concealed the deepest and most sublime truths of ancient mystical philosophy.

The acroamatic cipher is the most subtle of all, for the parable or allegory is susceptible of several interpretations. Bible students for centuries have been confronted by this difficultly. They are satisfied with the moral interpretation of the parable and forget that each parable and allegory is capable of seven interpretations, of which the seventh--the highest--is complete and all-inclusive, whereas the other six (and lesser) interpretations are fragmentary, revealing but part of the mystery. The creation myths of the world are acroamatic cryptograms, and the deities of the various pantheons are only cryptic characters which, if properly understood, become the constituents of a divine alphabet. The initiated few comprehend the true nature of this alphabet, but the uninitiated many worship the letters of it as gods.

Krisztian made a couple of excellent posts detailing this fact, that there is a way or understanding needed to properly comprehend these texts. On the surface, words from the myriad of books may appear to be strikingly different from each other, but mostly the spirit of the Work is in tact and parallels each other to the most minute degree.

I never said that the myriad of texts were written by real Adepts, you are putting words in my mouth; some are and some aren't. Many of these texts were written by Seekers, or Philosophers as they liked to call themselves, who knew more than the ordinary populace, and way more about Alchemy than most people on this message board.

We can look back on Krisztian's words, who is an Initiate, make effort to distill meaning, and further our understanding of Alchemy on how to read Alchemical texts through his words.


1. First warning:

http://i.imgur.com/81UhZJM.jpg

2. Key words (i.e., ardent vive, mercury, etc.) are often repeated throughout an entire treaty and if one pays close attention as a whole, the author often reveals meaning if read from cover to cover.

Philalethes even admits that when his entire works are taken into consideration, where one book leaves out, another fills in and discloses. I came to that conclusion.

3. Key alchemical concept (viz., in 12th, 15th and 16th Century) usually pertain to "sulphur and mercury". Substitute in words that fit either of these two, throughout the treaty. Before one knows it, pattern emerges.

4. Scattered throughout entire text, hints are dropped. It's never in linear explanation the process is revealed. Goes back and forth. Philalethes in particular most definitely speaks of the most significant in twisty language.

5. Each path has definite pattern to it. Recipes describe identical methods and processes, transferable from one author to the next. Artephius, Philalethes, Roger Bacon, Hermes, Peterny, speaks almost of identical process, minus that they use somewhat different terms.

6. Irrefutable evidence and help comes by parallel process of lab-work. Once certain lab-stages are achieved, it becomes obvious that the authors of those centuries didn't fairytale what they wrote. It was practical, alchemical processes they attempted to explain, of course, in their native, cultural tongue, and in their manner of thinking [of that century].

7. Alchemy is simple [therefore profound!] Anything complicated is projection from our minds onto the texts. Think simple. Think processes naturally seen in Nature.

There're two key points here from Philalethes.

Please read the excerpt taken from Transmutations of Metals.

http://i.imgur.com/e794WyH.png

One pertains to the importance of lab-work, the other discusses something more than just doing as chemistry - meditative practice. As I said before, the 'grace of God' doesn't just happen, one needs to enter a more profound mental state. Which is why alchemy is more than just traditional chemistry.

A way to also collect the proper procedure within the Old Master's writings, is to revert to sentence picking. They don't write linear, rather, they drop hints.

Read text, make note everytime they say: "The whole secret is . . . . ". They often drop such statements about several different aspects of the work. If you collect them all, then you'll see an entire operation unfolding before your eyes.

Chasm reminds us, using de Lubciz's words, that these texts are written with veiled tongue and not written openly to the masses like many believe.



Summary of Principles, by Rene Schwaller de Lubcicz.
The sages have always endeavored to hand down to posterity the revelation of the spirit disguised in the form of the words and parables of the sacred texts.
These texts are syntheses of Knowledge whose basis is always the same, though adapted to the times and to the state of consciousness of a people or peoples.
The means adopted for transmitting this teaching are manifold, comprising legends, tales, and customs, as well as monuments, statues, and temples. Thus, up to the end of the Middle Ages, the Christian tradition assigned specific attributes to a given Saint, sculpted or painted, and these attributes are a veritable scripture revealing what cannot be said in plain words. Temples—whether Hindu, Egyptian, Jewish, Christian, or Moslem—are always conceived according to a canon that respects certain elements which explain the teaching.
In Egypt, in India, as well as later, in the Gothic period of Christian cathedrals, the temple was a book revealing an "esoteric" teaching.
Esotericism should not be understood as a rebus or a secret writing, but rather as the "spirit of the letter"—that is to say. that which cannot be transcribed clearly, not because there is any desire to conceal it, but because of the "cerebral" intellect's inaptitude for comprehending it.
The character of the means of transcription of this esotericism should therefore be such that it addresses the faculties of the reader; the latter will read and understand it depending on his own
faculties, whether normal or superior (intuition, spatial vision). Each will see in the parable or in the architecture of the true temple, what he can see: utility, aesthetics, myth and legend, philosophical principle, or vision of material and spiritual genesis.
In the case of a pharaonic temple, one must always try to determine, first of all, what theme was emphasized. The dedication gives only an initial, general indication.
It appears quite distinctly that the secret pharaonic teaching was based on the vital functions for which the organs are the living symbols, in the sense explained previously. There can no longer be any doubt of the Ancients' knowledge with regard to what might be called "spiritual metabolism." from the assimilation of nourishment to the liberation of the Energy—or Spirit—manifested in the intellectual faculties and the powers of Consciousness.

...We must first learn how to read Alchemical texts before we start accusing others of psychological incompetency.

elixirmixer
08-07-2017, 11:48 PM
Yeah I get the fact that without being Fully initiated, I've got no hope of completely comprehending these alchemical scriptures. And that's whats left me no choice but to try my best to comprehend the entire situation from scratch, by-pass the crazy schizophrenic place ill find myself in if I fall too far down the rabbit hole and cant get out, and for now I'm just trying some practical things that will test my current theories.

Do you believe that Our Mercury and the Prima Materia are sourced from different places or do you see them as one and the same?

Illen A. Cluf
08-08-2017, 12:22 AM
Yeah I get the fact that without being Fully initiated, I've got no hope of completely comprehending these alchemical scriptures. And that's whats left me no choice but to try my best to comprehend the entire situation from scratch, by-pass the crazy schizophrenic place ill find myself in if I fall too far down the rabbit hole and cant get out, and for now I'm just trying some practical things that will test my current theories.

Do you believe that Our Mercury and the Prima Materia are sourced from different places or do you see them as one and the same?

This is a very fundamental question which is answered in many texts. Rather than provide you with useless hints as many would do, I feel generous today and will provide you with a source for a very direct answer. Read: "A Dialogue Between Mercury, an Alcymist and Nature" in Michael Sendivogius' "Novum Lumen Chymicum". Here is a link: https://books.google.ca/books?id=lkliAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=our+mercury+first+matter&source=bl&ots=UcR2ADDnJr&sig=jpCm88bMm60PiSAeIsNorjxx8S0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7oM_9q8bVAhUIzoMKHQ7dBwgQ6AEINzAD#v=on epage&q=our%20mercury%20first%20matter&f=false It starts at page 93. You will have a definitive answer.

Schmuldvich
08-08-2017, 01:40 AM
Yeah I get the fact that without being Fully initiated, I've got no hope of completely comprehending these alchemical scriptures.

Do you believe that Our Mercury and the Prima Materia are sourced from different places or do you see them as one and the same?
Elixirmixer, that is not at all what I was alluding to! Not at all!!! You do have hope of completely comprehending Alchemical texts if you simply take the time to read them all, it just takes time to see the parallels!

When you take time out of your life to "ORA, LEGE, LEGE, LEGE, RELEGE, LABORA ET INVENIES" ("Pray, Read, Read, Read, Read Again and You Shall Find") the words of the Masters become unobfuscated and the hidden meaning of the writings become clearer than ever!

Then do you know what to do...? You go back and read the same texts all over again! But this time with Open eyes which truly see and a mind that legitimately Understands. It is an incredible feeling and so encouraging to be able to read all this seemingly garble without obscurity. A new found fervor will be built up inside of you and your thoughts will rise to new heights, no doubt!


What conclusion did you come to regarding our Mercury and prima materia after reading Sendivogius' dialogue?

JDP
08-08-2017, 03:33 AM
Proper labwork is impossible without first understanding what the alchemists actually meant when they wrote what they did. That indeed DOES require endless reading and comprehension. There are numerous alchemists who stress the importance of reading over and over and over again. There's even a famous Latin expression that they often like to quote: "Lege, lege, relege, labora et invenies" ("Read, read, read again and you shall find").

You forgot a very important part of that Latin saying: "Read, read, read again, WORK ("labora") and you shall find." This is very important because the actual experimental work is just as necessary as gathering information from the texts. There is no way of knowing whether you are on the right track without putting your conclusions to the test.


The biggest myth that modern alchemists have spread is that one can read a handful of books and then begin the labwork immediately, by following the literal directions and never studying again. These people hail labworkers as heroes and look down on those who spend the effort to do exactly as the ancients have instructed - read! Don't just read the practical parts of the texts, but deeply study the theoretical parts as well.

The problem with this approach is that the theoretical parts can be as misleading, or even more so, as the alleged "practical" parts.


The labwork is simple women's or children's work. It is used to prepare the matter only. Nature does the rest. Without understanding how Nature does its work, the labwork is quite useless. Understanding how Nature works requires a very deep philosophical understanding. That is why the ancient alchemists were called "Philosophers" rather than Practioners.

There's many problems with this view. The alchemists fancied themselves "philosophers", but in reality they were "practioners" first & foremost. The way they learned how to make the Stone was really through trial & error and careful reading of the works of those who preceded them. Their theories and speculations about nature and matter would NEVER lead them to this goal, no matter what they like to claim, simply because nature in fact DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE THE STONE. So speculating about what nature supposedly does inside "the bowels of the earth" would never get you anywhere. But even if you thought that nature somehow can teach you something regarding this subject, you would have to have access to the inside of those deep "bowels of the earth" to see what exactly is going on down there, but alas, not even us today, with all our more complex machines, have reached that far below inside the earth's "bowels", so let alone the alchemists! Lucas Rodargirus, for example, was well aware of this, yet he came up with the excuse of "Divine Revelation" to try to "explain" how the alchemists can possibly know such things that they actually have never seen since no one has been "down there":

"But where did men learn to know, I ask you, this first matter of metals? What is it? How is it? Did they use magical arts and incantations? Have they imitated the nature of moles by sneaking through subterranean paths, in order to learn the nature of it, by what artifice it creates and produces metals? Not at all! By doing so, men would in fact return (as far as they could come back) more blind than the moles themselves. Chymical art teaches us, therefore, to reduce the metallic bodies in this matter, in which they themselves, by the work of nature, were originally formed in the bowels of the earth. If the father of nature, excellent and very great God, had not instilled so great a secret into the minds of philosophers, no mortal would have succeeded in such chymiological effects, which are very admirable and astonishing effects!" (The Fish of the Lower Zodiac, or the Philosophical Solution, chapter 3)

So Rodargirus is here admitting that no one (including he himself) has been "down there" inside the "bowels" of the earth to actually see what is going on, and yet he wants to make us believe that the reason why the alchemists still are able to know about such things as how metals are supposedly "generated" inside the earth is because an alleged "God" (whom Rodargirus had also never seen, he just assumed that "He" exists) has instilled this knowledge into their minds. If Rodargirus was still around, my answer to his naive "argument" would be very simple: Ignotum per ignotius! (do not try to "explain the unknown by the even more unknown!")

The cold, hard fact that many of these old alchemists did not want to admit, since it didn't sound "pious" or grandiloquent enough to their minds, is that they all discovered it the same way: trial & error. There is NO OTHER WAY. Not by "philosophizing" about things that supposedly go on deep underground but that no one has really seen, and not by praying to some hypothetical "God" that no one has seen or has any proof of "His" existence either. I assure you that if you take either route, or both, even if you could live 1000 years you will still never discover anything regarding alchemy. "Nature" can't teach you what she herself does NOT know how to make (the Stone is found NOWHERE already made in nature), and no "God" is going to miraculously let you know any "formulas" for preparing anything either, even if we assume that such a being exists. I think that "God" would have much better things to do than have to capriciously go around granting or not granting what people fancy or desire. If I was "God", I would find it most logical and practical to simply adopt a "if you really want it, work for it yourself, exercise your free will & ingenuity, don't expect me to get things for you!" policy. Otherwise what would be the point of "creating" humans in the first place? So that I have to baby-sit and spoon-feed them for eternity??? No, I made them with their own intelligence, their own minds, their own eyes, their own hands, etc. so that they can fend for themselves. Let them work and investigate things on their own!


The only way that someone can positively contribute by posting practical work, is if that work actually leads to the production of the Stone. Anything else is mostly a waste of time and effort. Thus, when one actually begins to post practical information directly related to real alchemy, it should be understood that that person has fully comprehended what the alchemists wrote, and is prepared to offer insights or observations that could help others.

Which is very unlikely to happen, since anyone who is on the right track will not share such information with everyone else in a totally clear manner so that anyone can achieve it as well, but without having had to go through the myriad of troubles and efforts that he went through to finally gain this knowledge. Personal security, gain & advantage are also just too strong a part of human nature. Self-preservation and self-advantage always kick in. "Killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs" (which is what would happen if everyone knew how to make the Stone) is a big NO-NO. No one in his right mind wants to do it. You want that "goose" to "live" for as long as possible, so that you can gather its "golden eggs" and get handsomely rewarded for all the troubles you went through to acquire the said "goose".


I personally doubt that there are more than a small handful of people in the world today (if any) who have actually come that close. The rest of the practical work that has been offered by modern "alchemists" is only work that has become a trendy concept of what so many others before them have thought to be the truth, but which actually never led anywhere (for example the antimony path). By appearing to practice these trendy and well-tried approaches, and showing their colorful photos of the lab work, they begin to be admired by their peers, and become part of their social circles. This gathering and condoning of these concepts only encourages others to join in expanding these concepts even further. Soon a whole new approach to alchemy is borne that has gone far astray of the original teachings.

This is true, but those people are only fooling themselves and, unfortunately, those unwary enough who listen to them and accept their SPECULATIONS/THEORIES as "facts". However, sooner or later empirical experience will let these deluded people realize that their cherished ideas were mistaken, when they actually try the prescribed methods and see for themselves that no substance that can transmute many times its own weight of other metals into silver and gold is produced.


Thus, in my opinion, at this stage in my own study, I'm FAR more interested in the theoretical and philosophical discussions of how Nature works, than in any number of lab pictures from the so-called "practical" work. It's like putting the cart before the horse, when the cart does not even have wheels.

But unfortunately, I know from many years of involvement, that I'm almost alone in this perspective, and have been often criticized for not engaging in this erroneous lab work which demonstrably leads nowhere. While I'm being accused of wasting my time reading and studying very old texts, I see no results in those who forsake this study in order to join the trendy lab groups or who follow some nonsensical "insight" that they may have that has no connection to what the ancients taught. I keep asking myself, "who is really wasting their time?" in terms of actually getting any closer to producing the Stone.

Unfortunately, such an approach will also not get anyone anywhere. The only way you will ever know if your theories/ideas/speculations regarding what the alchemists were talking about are correct or mistaken is to TEST them, and for that you NEED to perform experiments, otherwise you will never be able to determine if your ideas/theories/speculations were on the right track. I have found it EXTREMELY USEFUL to gain a lot of empirical experience while investigating the old texts. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF MULTITUDE OF FAILURES. Believe it or not, as bothersome and frustrating as failures can be, you CAN ALWAYS LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM. There just is no other way to separate right from wrong in this subject than with trial & error. He who does not experiment will never find out anything certain in this "art".

elixirmixer
08-08-2017, 03:44 AM
Ah, so that's the answer... Thank you very much Illen A Cluff.

Much appreciated.

which brings me back to the question: what are you talking about Schivichy?

If then it is just one matter, then I think I understand. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

Spiritus Mundi, will, upon circulation within the correct parameters, create its own sulfur.

It doesn't necessarily need to be developed that far however, in order to complete our work, nevertheless, if we wish for the red stone in all its purity, then we mature SM through correct circulation.

Then, even though SM is a body and a spirit, we nevertheless, fix it further still with Sol, and not our vulgar gold, but IMO this pure pulvis solaris.

Then upon being embodied into life, it now has to die, its putrefaction, the work begins...

Its brightness wanes, it becomes black, it floats, smokes, and falls, bubbling up the ugly black skin in the picture that you showed us.

This, through a gentle regime 'unlocks' said palace and takes us to the white places....

????

Illen A. Cluf
08-08-2017, 01:02 PM
Unfortunately, such an approach will also not get anyone anywhere. The only way you will ever know if your theories/ideas/speculations regarding what the alchemists were talking about are correct or mistaken is to TEST them, and for that you NEED to perform experiments, otherwise you will never be able to determine if your ideas/theories/speculations were on the right track. I have found it EXTREMELY USEFUL to gain a lot of empirical experience while investigating the old texts. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF MULTITUDE OF FAILURES. Believe it or not, as bothersome and frustrating as failures can be, you CAN ALWAYS LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM. There just is no other way to separate right from wrong in this subject than with trial & error. He who does not experiment will never find out anything certain in this "art".

But you missed my point all along. Of course the practical work is vitally important and the ONLY way to test the theories. But my point all along is that the practical work to test the theories should not commence until a full understanding and comprehension of what the philosophers wrote has been achieved. Too many people read 2 or 3 texts and jump right into the lab work, mostly based on the 'trend' of what others are doing. For example, look at the number of people following the so-called "antimony way", using actual antimony. If they had continued to study, read, re-read and comprehend, they would have realized that the philosophers only used the word "antimony" and many other such words, as symbolic designations for the real work. In many cases, the many descriptive 'material' names they used only represented different stages or colors of the same initial matter as it went through the process. Once they start to engage in this lab work, they rarely turn back to studying the texts, but become obsessed with the lab work and assume that they must have missed a tiny detail. So they ill spend many years or even all their life adjusting the same process, looking for that one small detail that they might have missed.

So my suggestion is to read, read and re-read, until the philosophical understanding begins to make sense, before fully engaging in the lab work. I do find the theoretical/philosophical sections to be far more instructive and understandable than the practical sections, and it is these sections which have helped me understand the practical sections better. I do not want to waste my life following trendy lab approaches, when the theoretical sections have shown me that these approaches are not what the philosophers were writing about. Of course, there may be various experiments that one might conduct along the way to test out some of the observations related to the theories. But I don't think these lab tests should become the entire pursuit and focus of the study.

It was actually the theoretical/philosophical sections of the treatises, which describe how Nature works and how they believed metals grew in the earth that gave me my biggest break-throughs in the understanding of their secret language. It is not that their understanding of Nature was necessarily correct (in terms of what we know today), because they did not have the science we have today, but it shows how they actually came up with these theories, based on their very real observations. Thus you first have to get totally into their mindset, think just like they did back then, and relate that back to the observations they made. Too many are not able to do this, since they continue to think as we do today. This is part of the "meditative" or creative process. You really have to remove as much modern bias as possible. or you will never be able to comprehend what they were saying. Once you have their viewpoint, the rest begins to get easier and easier. You begin to see why they described certain parts of the process with the terms that they used. Almost none of these terms are to be taken literally. This is the very part that confuses so many lab workers. They pick and select which terms are literal and which are figurative, when almost ALL the terms are figurative. The main key to the terms that they used was to describe the color changes as the same matter underwent changes.

So, I was not saying that the lab work was unimportant. In fact, it is essential. What I'm saying is that the main lab work should not even be attempted until one has understood the basics of the language of the philosophers. This language is not easy to discover, and requires years of reading, reading and re-reading, as well as an imaginative ability to be able to remove all modern bias and think as they did. A good background in symbolic languages (such as the Kabbalah) is also very helpful.

Hellin Hermetist
08-08-2017, 01:07 PM
Hellin Hermetist,

These texts were not written to common people like you or I...please understand that they were written to Initiates, or as called by the old Authors, Sons of the Art. "Secret Teachings Of All Ages" describes this way of teaching as an acroamatic cipher.

Not the ones I made reference to, which are included in RAMS collection. I challenge you to prove me that works like the Coelum Philosophorum, or Baron Rusestein's manuscripts, or the works of Tugel, or the Golden Chain of Homer, even the Vegetable Work of Isaac Hollandus or Basil Valentine Triumphal Chariot or Manuals, are written using decknames and cryptic terms. Only please dont post whole sentences from the works of Flamel or Raymond Lulle or Alexander Sethon to prove your thesis. I mentioned certain works and I wait certain answers.



The acroamatic cipher.[/FONT][/B] The religious and philosophical writings of all nations abound with acroamatic cryptograms, that is, parables and allegories. The acroamatic is unique in that the document containing it may be translated or reprinted without affecting the cryptogram. Parables and allegories have been used since remote antiquity to present moral truths in an attractive and understandable manner. The acroamatic cryptogram is a pictorial cipher drawn in words and its symbolism must be so interpreted. The Old and New Testaments of the Jews, the writings of Plato and Aristotle, Homer's Odyssey and Iliad, Virgil's Æneid, The Metamorphosis of Apuleius, and Æsop's Fables are outstanding examples of acroamatic cryptography in which are concealed the deepest and most sublime truths of ancient mystical philosophy.

Nothing to do with the treatises I made reference to.



There're two key points here from Philalethes.
Please read the excerpt taken from Transmutations of Metals.

Philalethes was an invention of the iatrochemist George Starkey, in an attempt to impress other ppl and earn some money by publishing the works of a supposed mysterious adept. Good luck to your friend Kristzian if he is trying to learn anything form these treatises.



I never said that the myriad of texts were written by real Adepts, you are putting words in my mouth; some are and some aren't.

But earlier you advised another member of that forum to study every alchemical work which he can find in sites like rexresearch.com. If some of those works werent written by real adepts, as you now say, why didnt you show him which works are good and genuine productions and which ones were written by charlatans? I believe that this little thing would have helped me a lot.



Many of these texts were written by Seekers, or Philosophers as they liked to call themselves, who knew more than the ordinary populace, and way more about Alchemy than most people on this message board.

So all the old works were written by accomplished or almost accomplished adepts. Seems that charlatans didnt exist in that old era. Unfortunately for you, some of the old authors didnt accept your opinion. Valois, a 16th century author, says that he and his companion had studied a myriad of works and worked according to their instructions without any good results, for a period longer than 20 years. At last they studied patiently the good works, which are Lulle's Testament and Codicille, the Great Rosary and the one named Code de tout Verite (Turba Philosophorum), and finally they were able to produce the Stone. Trevisan go even further. He says that over 50 years he studied, restudied and followed the instructions of the myriad works he was able to get on his possesion, and lost all his years and his family's fortune, without any good result. At last, he isolated his self from the world and studied patiently the works of Raymond Lulle for a period of seven years, and after that period he had at last understood what was the thing he was searching for and was able to accomplish his task. So, for some of the older authors, most of the alchemical authors werent seekers or philosophers, as you believe, but charlatans and ignorant men, with the sole exception of Raymond Lulle and two or three other authors.

Andro
08-08-2017, 01:37 PM
I second the general position of Hellin Hermetist. The world and especially people, haven't really changed that much over the centuries. It's SO easy to write cryptically.

IMO, there are only a handful of really good books that should be studied deeply, over and over, ALWAYS accompanied by some sort of lab work to test/prove one's deductions and theories. There is a lot of decent complementary material, but start with a good and trustworthy foundation before reading and getting confused by tens of thousands of pages.

And I have no clue why people get so hung on Philalethes/Starkey. I read some of Starkey's lab notes, he also wrote under the pseudonym of Philalethes, and was not a genuine adept. I would personally not waste my time with his stuff. And if Kristzian is such a big shot initiate and if the super-knowledgeable Chasm really knows so much, maybe it would be a better idea to get into their good graces and see what comes out of it. You probably quoted K from another forum, because when he used to post here, he not only wrote in an extremely condescending manner, but he also made a real art-form out of writing many words and saying nothing at all - except a few quasi-philosophical platitudes here and there. Yet, I know how some people just LOVE this sort of thing, so - to each their own.

Unless you have been directly shown (by someone) a true and verified accomplishment of the Great Work (preferably in person, face to face), or at least a verified accomplishment/completion of ONE of the major stages/rotations (such as the isolation/condensation/testing of the Universal Spirit, the obtainment of the Ph. Mercury + testing, the birth(s) of the Ph. Sulfur, etc...) - I would say: Trust No One!

JDP
08-08-2017, 06:44 PM
But you missed my point all along. Of course the practical work is vitally important and the ONLY way to test the theories. But my point all along is that the practical work to test the theories should not commence until a full understanding and comprehension of what the philosophers wrote has been achieved. Too many people read 2 or 3 texts and jump right into the lab work, mostly based on the 'trend' of what others are doing. For example, look at the number of people following the so-called "antimony way", using actual antimony. If they had continued to study, read, re-read and comprehend, they would have realized that the philosophers only used the word "antimony" and many other such words, as symbolic designations for the real work. In many cases, the many descriptive 'material' names they used only represented different stages or colors of the same initial matter as it went through the process. Once they start to engage in this lab work, they rarely turn back to studying the texts, but become obsessed with the lab work and assume that they must have missed a tiny detail. So they ill spend many years or even all their life adjusting the same process, looking for that one small detail that they might have missed.

So my suggestion is to read, read and re-read, until the philosophical understanding begins to make sense, before fully engaging in the lab work. I do find the theoretical/philosophical sections to be far more instructive and understandable than the practical sections, and it is these sections which have helped me understand the practical sections better. I do not want to waste my life following trendy lab approaches, when the theoretical sections have shown me that these approaches are not what the philosophers were writing about. Of course, there may be various experiments that one might conduct along the way to test out some of the observations related to the theories. But I don't think these lab tests should become the entire pursuit and focus of the study.

It was actually the theoretical/philosophical sections of the treatises, which describe how Nature works and how they believed metals grew in the earth that gave me my biggest break-throughs in the understanding of their secret language. It is not that their understanding of Nature was necessarily correct (in terms of what we know today), because they did not have the science we have today, but it shows how they actually came up with these theories, based on their very real observations. Thus you first have to get totally into their mindset, think just like they did back then, and relate that back to the observations they made. Too many are not able to do this, since they continue to think as we do today. This is part of the "meditative" or creative process. You really have to remove as much modern bias as possible. or you will never be able to comprehend what they were saying. Once you have their viewpoint, the rest begins to get easier and easier. You begin to see why they described certain parts of the process with the terms that they used. Almost none of these terms are to be taken literally. This is the very part that confuses so many lab workers. They pick and select which terms are literal and which are figurative, when almost ALL the terms are figurative. The main key to the terms that they used was to describe the color changes as the same matter underwent changes.

So, I was not saying that the lab work was unimportant. In fact, it is essential. What I'm saying is that the main lab work should not even be attempted until one has understood the basics of the language of the philosophers. This language is not easy to discover, and requires years of reading, reading and re-reading, as well as an imaginative ability to be able to remove all modern bias and think as they did. A good background in symbolic languages (such as the Kabbalah) is also very helpful.

We have discussed this topic several times, both publicly and privately, and I still cannot follow your logic here. If you are well aware that their theories/speculations about how nature supposedly operated within the earth to generate metals are full of unproven assumptions on their part, then you should also be aware of how UNCERTAIN the whole theoretical framework is. Then how can anyone really have much confidence in that their ruminations can really lead anyone anywhere? I don't believe in alchemy and transmutation because of these theoretical musings, which I am well aware have NEVER led anyone anywhere. How can I be so sure? Well, because such speculative "philosophizing" has been plastered over and over, again and again, through thousands of pages of alchemical literature, and that certainly did not help any of the countless legions of seekers one bit to get closer to the goal. No matter how clearly spelled out, speculations remain speculations, not "facts". To give you a more modern analogy: imagine that your goal was to try to prepare ferric chloride. Imagine that in order to try to figure out how to prepare this substance you did not pay attention to HONEST DESCRIPTIONS OF THE ACTUAL PROCEDURES how to prepare it, but to the theories/speculations of chemists regarding "electron shells" and "valence". I can assure you that you will NEVER arrive at the desired goal by doing such a thing. No amount of pondering over how these alleged tiny particles capriciously "bond" with those of other "atoms" will allow you to get a clear understanding of how that iron salt is actually prepared. That's because there is a vast difference between SPECULATION/THEORY and EMPIRICAL FACTS. If you want to learn how to prepare that substance you will have to read a DESCRIPTIVE chemical text. Similarly, the endless theoretical conjectures about "sulphurs" and "mercuries" and the supposed "generation" of metals will never get you anywhere, just like it did not help anyone in the last 2000+ years get any closer to the goal. This is not where the potential value of alchemical texts resides. The actual value lies in its DESCRIPTIVE passages, just like in ordinary chemistry (with the obvious difference that ordinary chemistry describes its procedures IN AS CLEAR AND AS FULL A FASHION AS POSSIBLE, so as to not leave the person seeking such instructions without knowing any important part of the process, while alchemy NEVER DOES THAT, BUT ONLY PROVIDES PARTIAL DESCRIPTIONS, AND USUALLY IN A "SCATTERED" MANNER, AND ALSO USUALLY ACCOMPANIED BY "DECKNAMEN", ALLEGORIES, SIMILES, RIDDLES, etc.) In order to illustrate my point in a clearer manner, allow me to put two brief examples of VERY DIFFERENT PASSAGES:

http://www.rexresearch.com/alchemy4/ficino.htm

"Chapter 1.

Of the Generation of Metals in the Bowels of the Earth.

The opinion and determination of all who philosophize rightly is the same: that all metals are generated by the vapour of sulphur, and of argent vive. Because when the fat of the earth being heated, finds the substance of water somewhat globulous, it as well by its natural virtue, as by the rays of the celestial bodies and the endeavor of heaven, as according to the purity or impurity of each, consolidated it in the veins of the earth into those most beautiful bodies, gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, and lead."

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/rpvision.html

"A Toad full Ruddy I saw, did drink the juice of Grapes so fast,
Till over-charged with the broth, his Bowels all to brast:
And after that, from poyson'd Bulk he cast his Venom fell,
For Grief and Pain whereof his Members all began to swell;
With drops of Poysoned sweat approaching thus his secret Den,
His Cave with blasts of fumous Air he all bewhited then:
And from the which in space a Golden Humour did ensue,
Whose falling drops from high did stain the soyl with ruddy hue.
And when his Corps the force of vital breath began to lack,
This dying Toad became forthwith like Coal for colour Black:
Thus drowned in his proper veins of poysoned flood;
For term of Eighty days and Four he rotting stood
By Tryal then this Venom to expel I did desire;
For which I did commit his Carkass to a gentle Fire:
Which done, a Wonder to the sight, but more to be rehearst;
The Toad with Colours rare through every side was pierc'd;
And White appear'd when all the sundry hews were past:
Which after being tincted Ruddy, for evermore did last."

The difference between both passages is quite clear. The first one says absolutely NOTHING that can be considered useful in this quest. It is plainly nothing but speculation (or "philosophizing", as the author himself plainly puts it) about things that no one, including the author himself, had actually witnessed. The second passage, on the other hand, is quite plainly a semi-veiled DESCRIPTION OF SOME REACTIONS BETWEEN SOME SUBSTANCES HAPPENING INSIDE FLASKS, and therefore is based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. You might say that without knowing what the "toad", the "juice of grapes", etc. actually are you are also uncertain what substances should be used to achieve them. True, but THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT: your "job" as an aspiring alchemist is to try to find THE SUBSTANCES THAT WILL REACT IN SUCH A MANNER AS THE AUTHOR IS DESCRIBING. As difficult as this might be, since there are thousands of substances out there open to investigation, at least YOU HAVE A STARTING POINT TO GUIDE YOURSELF. Empirical experience is the ONLY THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE SUBSTANCES ARE THAT REACT IN THIS WAY AND SHOW YOU WHAT THE AUTHOR IS DESCRIBING. Without actual hands-on experience YOU ARE SIMPLY LOST AND WILL NEVER FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE GUYS WERE DESCRIBING IN SUCH SEMI-VEILED MANNERS. No amount "philosophizing" about how metals are supposedly "generated" inside the earth, which no one has ever seen, or praying to some "God" that also no one has ever seen or proven to actually exist will do the trick. ONLY EMPIRICAL EXPERIENCE CAN TEACH YOU RIGHT FROM WRONG. So without the required amount of empirical experience and familiarity with all manner of substances and their reactions, no amount of theoretical ruminations about what the alchemists were writing about will get you anywhere closer to the goal. YOU NEED THE HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE ALCHEMISTS WERE TALKING ABOUT. And in order to gain such experience YOU NEED TO BE READY TO CONFRONT AND ACCEPT A MULTITUDE OF FAILURES FIRST. No one "hits the mark" in his first attempt at anything. If you are the kind of person who easily gives up by repeated failures, then the alchemists' "booby-trap" has worked. You have been defeated and effectively removed from the equation. The alchemists' goal of keeping "unworthy" seekers at bay has worked; they have won, and you have lost. Only those who keep persevering in the face of repeated failure and never give up and continue to investigate & observe all manner of reactions have a chance of finding the truth.

Illen A. Cluf
08-08-2017, 09:12 PM
We have discussed this topic several times, both publicly and privately, and I still cannot follow your logic here. If you are well aware that their theories/speculations about how nature supposedly operated within the earth to generate metals are full of unproven assumptions on their part, then you should also be aware of how UNCERTAIN the whole theoretical framework is. Then how can anyone really have much confidence in that their ruminations can really lead anyone anywhere? I don't believe in alchemy and transmutation because of these theoretical musings, which I am well aware have NEVER led anyone anywhere. How can I be so sure? Well, because such speculative "philosophizing" has been plastered over and over, again and again, through thousands of pages of alchemical literature, and that certainly did not help any of the countless legions of seekers one bit to get closer to the goal. No matter how clearly spelled out, speculations remain speculations, not "facts". To give you a more modern analogy: imagine that your goal was to try to prepare ferric chloride. Imagine that in order to try to figure out how to prepare this substance you did not pay attention to HONEST DESCRIPTIONS OF THE ACTUAL PROCEDURES how to prepare it, but to the theories/speculations of chemists regarding "electron shells" and "valence". I can assure you that you will NEVER arrive at the desired goal by doing such a thing. No amount of pondering over how these alleged tiny particles capriciously "bond" with those of other "atoms" will allow you to get a clear understanding of how that iron salt is actually prepared. That's because there is a vast difference between SPECULATION/THEORY and EMPIRICAL FACTS. If you want to learn how to prepare that substance you will have to read a DESCRIPTIVE chemical text. Similarly, the endless theoretical conjectures about "sulphurs" and "mercuries" and the supposed "generation" of metals will never get you anywhere, just like it did not help anyone in the last 2000+ years get any closer to the goal. This is not where the potential value of alchemical texts resides. The actual value lies in its DESCRIPTIVE passages, just like in ordinary chemistry (with the obvious difference that ordinary chemistry describes its procedures IN AS CLEAR AND AS FULL A FASHION AS POSSIBLE, so as to not leave the person seeking such instructions without knowing any important part of the process, while alchemy NEVER DOES THAT, BUT ONLY PROVIDES PARTIAL DESCRIPTIONS, AND USUALLY IN A "SCATTERED" MANNER, AND ALSO USUALLY ACCOMPANIED BY "DECKNAMEN", ALLEGORIES, SIMILES, RIDDLES, etc.) In order to illustrate my point in a clearer manner, allow me to put two brief examples of VERY DIFFERENT PASSAGES:

http://www.rexresearch.com/alchemy4/ficino.htm

"Chapter 1.

Of the Generation of Metals in the Bowels of the Earth.

The opinion and determination of all who philosophize rightly is the same: that all metals are generated by the vapour of sulphur, and of argent vive. Because when the fat of the earth being heated, finds the substance of water somewhat globulous, it as well by its natural virtue, as by the rays of the celestial bodies and the endeavor of heaven, as according to the purity or impurity of each, consolidated it in the veins of the earth into those most beautiful bodies, gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, and lead."

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/rpvision.html

"A Toad full Ruddy I saw, did drink the juice of Grapes so fast,
Till over-charged with the broth, his Bowels all to brast:
And after that, from poyson'd Bulk he cast his Venom fell,
For Grief and Pain whereof his Members all began to swell;
With drops of Poysoned sweat approaching thus his secret Den,
His Cave with blasts of fumous Air he all bewhited then:
And from the which in space a Golden Humour did ensue,
Whose falling drops from high did stain the soyl with ruddy hue.
And when his Corps the force of vital breath began to lack,
This dying Toad became forthwith like Coal for colour Black:
Thus drowned in his proper veins of poysoned flood;
For term of Eighty days and Four he rotting stood
By Tryal then this Venom to expel I did desire;
For which I did commit his Carkass to a gentle Fire:
Which done, a Wonder to the sight, but more to be rehearst;
The Toad with Colours rare through every side was pierc'd;
And White appear'd when all the sundry hews were past:
Which after being tincted Ruddy, for evermore did last."

The difference between both passages is quite clear. The first one says absolutely NOTHING that can be considered useful in this quest. It is plainly nothing but speculation (or "philosophizing", as the author himself plainly puts it) about things that no one, including the author himself, had actually witnessed. The second passage, on the other hand, is quite plainly a semi-veiled DESCRIPTION OF SOME REACTIONS BETWEEN SOME SUBSTANCES HAPPENING INSIDE FLASKS, and therefore is based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. You might say that without knowing what the "toad", the "juice of grapes", etc. actually are you are also uncertain what substances should be used to achieve them. True, but THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT: your "job" as an aspiring alchemist is to try to find THE SUBSTANCES THAT WILL REACT IN SUCH A MANNER AS THE AUTHOR IS DESCRIBING. As difficult as this might be, since there are thousands of substances out there open to investigation, at least YOU HAVE A STARTING POINT TO GUIDE YOURSELF. Empirical experience is the ONLY THING IN THIS UNIVERSE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE SUBSTANCES ARE THAT REACT IN THIS WAY AND SHOW YOU WHAT THE AUTHOR IS DESCRIBING. Without actual hands-on experience YOU ARE SIMPLY LOST AND WILL NEVER FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE GUYS WERE DESCRIBING IN SUCH SEMI-VEILED MANNERS. No amount "philosophizing" about how metals are supposedly "generated" inside the earth, which no one has ever seen, or praying to some "God" that also no one has ever seen or proven to actually exist will do the trick. ONLY EMPIRICAL EXPERIENCE CAN TEACH YOU RIGHT FROM WRONG. So without the required amount of empirical experience and familiarity with all manner of substances and their reactions, no amount of theoretical ruminations about what the alchemists were writing about will get you anywhere closer to the goal. YOU NEED THE HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE ALCHEMISTS WERE TALKING ABOUT. And in order to gain such experience YOU NEED TO BE READY TO CONFRONT AND ACCEPT A MULTITUDE OF FAILURES FIRST. No one "hits the mark" in his first attempt at anything. If you are the kind of person who easily gives up by repeated failures, then the alchemists' "booby-trap" has worked. You have been defeated and effectively removed from the equation. The alchemists' goal of keeping "unworthy" seekers at bay has worked; they have won, and you have lost. Only those who keep persevering in the face of repeated failure and never give up and continue to investigate & observe all manner of reactions have a chance of finding the truth.

I know exactly what you are trying to say, and, as before, I have difficulty explaining my viewpoint for two reasons. The first is that if I say too much, I will be revealing some very important information that is not meant to be openly revealed. Secondly, your perspective is very much trapped into the views of today and modern science. As I continually strive to say, “you have to be able to think like the alchemists did 1000 or 1500 years ago”. They thought very different from how we think today, and I agree that it’s very difficult to put ourselves in their sandals. If they saw a comet, they would report seeing a “fiery serpent” in the sky or something like that. That doesn’t mean that it really was a burning snake, but that it visually gave the impression of a burning snake. It was their poetic and imaginative way of describing a real observance to others at the time. Today we know what a comet actually is, and most can describe it fairly accurately and consistently (although even today, fear and surprise can significantly distort that recorded observation). However, the indigenous people in the Brazilian jungles may still describe it today as a “fiery serpent” or any other similar animal that they are familiar with.

So the ancients did not have the science we have today. Thus they came up with creative theories based on their observations. For example, they noticed that there was almost always some silver in gold deposits, but never any gold in silver deposits. This, and other such observations, led them to the theory that metals matured progressively, from the most primitive (lead) to the most perfect (gold). Thus the little silver that they found in gold deposits was just some silver still in the maturation process of becoming gold. The reason there was no gold in the silver deposits, was because the environment was not right for the silver to become gold. Because the environment wasn’t right, none of the silver could convert to gold. Of course, there are loopholes in this theory, but we know that based on modern science. But it was their way to explain observations based on what they knew at the time. The theories were wrong, but the observations were accurate.

So, you say that because these theories were wrong, we can’t deduce anything useful from what they said in the theoretical sections of their treatises. I totally disagree - we can still accurately deduce their observations, which are the real key, not the theories. It’s the keen observations that they made which allows us to understand how they arrived at their process, as well as what material(s) they used in the preparation. These are the very observations that let us unravel the decnamen they used, as well as the process. Once you determine what these decnamen are, you can substitute the names, and follow them through the rest of the treatise, as well as others. Then you test them with logic for consistency.

If they create inconsistencies from a practical sense, then you likely have erred somewhere in the interpretation and have to start all over again and revise/correct your interpretations. If there is a fair degree of consistency within the treatise as well as other related treatises, in a practical sense, based on what we know of how materials behave under various conditions, then you can be fairly sure that your theory is likely correct. The next step is to work out all the details, and put it to the test in the laboratory.

I’m not sure how I can make this any more clear, other than revealing too much of what shouldn’t be openly revealed.

Kibric
08-08-2017, 10:11 PM
The first is that if I say too much, I will be revealing some very important information that is not meant to be openly revealed


other than revealing too much of what shouldn’t be openly revealed

not meant to be openly revealed ?
shouldn't be openly revealed ?

who told you this ?

Illen A. Cluf
08-08-2017, 10:17 PM
not meant to be openly revealed ?
shouldn't be openly revealed ?

who told you this ?

Alchemists' code.

Awani
08-08-2017, 10:40 PM
...than revealing too much of what shouldn't be openly revealed.

And why not?

:p

Illen A. Cluf
08-08-2017, 11:10 PM
And why not?

:p

You've heard all the arguments. There are quite a number of posts about that.

black
08-09-2017, 04:43 AM
Alchemists' code.

Thank you Mr Cluf.

As I see it.... the First Key of Alchemy is the desire, fortitude, and tenacity to be able to study.

And when I say study I mean more than 2 or 3 pages of reading per week or day for that matter.

For the majority of the members of this forum, Alchemy is a pastime / hobby and that is ok.

They will not learn anything of value in this Art.

But for a very, very small percentage of members Alchemy is their passion, it has become their whole meaning and purpose in life.

A most devout path:
Totally committed to a cause or belief. Dedicated, devoted, committed, loyal, faithful, staunch, genuine, firm, steadfast, resolute, unwavering, sincere, wholehearted, keen, earnest, enthusiastic, zealous, passionate, ardent, fervent, intense, vehement, active, sworn.


These are the few that will gain the understanding to evolve in the Great Work of Alchemy.

If you do the work / study and the PRACTICAL you will clearly know
which authors write True Alchemy and which ones do not.
This is the understanding gained from diligent work.

Diligent:
Having or showing care and conscientiousness in one's work or duties.
Industrious, hardworking, assiduous; conscientious, particular,
punctilious, meticulous, painstaking, rigorous, exacting, careful,
thorough, sedulous, attentive, heedful, intent, earnest, studious;
constant, persevering, persistent, tenacious, pertinacious, zealous,
dedicated, committed, driven, active, busy; unflagging, untiring,
tireless, indefatigable, dogged.

As I have written before , one of the reasons Alchemists do not share this understanding / knowledge of the work OPENLY is that it would deprive a soul of so much very important growth etc, etc.


Nobody rides for free.

Hobby = a waste of time in Alchemy

Devout path = understanding / comprehension = KEYS.

But I could be wrong.

black
08-09-2017, 06:01 AM
An after thought to the previous post ....

If anyone feels I am incorrect in any way or totally wrong in the way I view this, please step forward now and do not hesitate in correcting me.

I'm always open to the possibility of learning more and I welcome the opportunity of constructive criticism.

A major part of Alchemy Forum is that we all have the opportunity
to learn so much.

elixirmixer
08-09-2017, 06:08 AM
Well then theres always the passionate, die-hard alchemy lover who is still just a fool and who slips further and further into mental and physical illness while all the while spending every dollar they have trying to heal....

Alchemy's a bitch. But I love her ;)

Axismundi000
08-09-2017, 06:38 AM
Thank you Mr Cluf.

As I see it.... the First Key of Alchemy is the desire, fortitude, and tenacity to be able to study.

And when I say study I mean more than 2 or 3 pages of reading per week or day for that matter.

For the majority of the members of this forum, Alchemy is a pastime / hobby and that is ok.

They will not learn anything of value in this Art.

But for a very, very small percentage of members Alchemy is their passion, it has become their whole meaning and purpose in life.

A most devout path:
Totally committed to a cause or belief. Dedicated, devoted, committed, loyal, faithful, staunch, genuine, firm, steadfast, resolute, unwavering, sincere, wholehearted, keen, earnest, enthusiastic, zealous, passionate, ardent, fervent, intense, vehement, active, sworn.


These are the few that will gain the understanding to evolve in the Great Work of Alchemy.

If you do the work / study and the PRACTICAL you will clearly know
which authors write True Alchemy and which ones do not.
This is the understanding gained from diligent work.

Diligent:
Having or showing care and conscientiousness in one's work or duties.
Industrious, hardworking, assiduous; conscientious, particular,
punctilious, meticulous, painstaking, rigorous, exacting, careful,
thorough, sedulous, attentive, heedful, intent, earnest, studious;
constant, persevering, persistent, tenacious, pertinacious, zealous,
dedicated, committed, driven, active, busy; unflagging, untiring,
tireless, indefatigable, dogged.

As I have written before , one of the reasons Alchemists do not share this understanding / knowledge of the work OPENLY is that it would deprive a soul of so much very important growth etc, etc.


Nobody rides for free.

Hobby = a waste of time in Alchemy

Devout path = understanding / comprehension = KEYS.

But I could be wrong.

Any endeavour e.g. Learning to play the violin requires commitment and discipline and PRACTICE to achieve results. As a general observation if a person wishes to follow a code of secrecy why discuss and imply possession of secrets then refuse to divulge, patronise, and suggest vast quantities of reading. Particularly as some old Alchemy texts were entirely made up nonsense for the purpose of profit in selling overpriced books pretending they contain the mysteries of Alchemy. In the vernacular those here who have suggested just reading and meditating are likely just up themselves.

There is I think a quality that is being missed here that of spiritual maturity, it surprises me that so many 'advanced' Alchemy practitioners have not mentioned this, perhaps it is not a consideration in some people's view on this forum. Franz Bardons material explains this idea well: a persons progress (through his training) will be impacted by spiritual maturity so if they have done Hermetic work and effort in previous lifetimes they will likely progress more rapidly. For example in Bardon's 3rd book Key to the True Quaballah getting about halfway through the work specified is the achievement of many lifetimes and to become liberated whilst living.

This concept is why I think so many here who say just read and meditate are muppets. I understand the need for secrecy if you have mastered Alchemy the trouble you could have from desperate individuals and in some countries the authorities could be bad. The fact that in this thread no-one has identified that spiritual maturity could also impact achievement suggests a distinct lack of it in some quarters although some posters have expressed this idea in indirect ways e.g. SM can help one person and injure another and other less direct explanations. In the main though spiritual maturity ( different to abbreviation SM) has not been mentioned and I suggest in some instances here that is due to a lack of such as evinced by the go read, it is pointless to practice first and I have the secret but I'm not telling - narcissism and psychological crutch as I mention previous.

NB Lab Alchemy is a technical art like learning to play a musical instrument not practicing the technical side of the endeavour and just doing theory I would have thought is obviously absurd what are some of you people doing?

black
08-09-2017, 08:59 AM
Hello Mr. Axis

I will try to address some of the points you have made.


I have never seen anyone openly confess to having obtained The Philosophers Stone on the Alchemy Forums.

If someone has the Philosophers Stone then there is nothing they need
from anyone else. They have it ALL. I assume only.


Spirit / God / The Force.... whatever you choose to call it.

It directed me to the study of Alchemy and I'm pretty shore it wasn't for the making of large gold ingots.

As I have already written that some persons in the know may not share information openly because they care about a students
spiritual / soul growth.

I think if anyone has a good, clear, solid foundation of Alchemic theory
then the practice in the lab is just the proof of their understanding.

A bit like learning to read music and then playing it.

If you are given a fine piece of written music without having learned to read music you will never be able to play it even if you can play your instrument well.


Mr. Axis how does anyone get a good, clear, solid foundation of Alchemic theory ????

Axismundi000
08-09-2017, 11:01 AM
This a straw man arguement because at no time have I suggested not reading books on Alchemy. Rather I have proposed that both reading and practical experimentation occur. Just as the violin student learns to play the instrument and also gradually develops the ability to read sheets of music. The increasing expertise in both playing the violin and reading music going hand in hand. I think here on this thread the inevitable point of futility is approaching as is often the situation in on-line discussions.

I understand that I will not be able to change anyone's opinion here, it should also be understood that sometimes I will not simply put up with nonsense.

Awani
08-09-2017, 11:15 AM
My perspective on what has been discussed here recently:

A surgeon can explain to me all the tricks of the trade, it does not make me a surgeon. That is why 'need to know basis' is childish. Usually when someone claims such elitism it means they know nothing.

It is the same with those who claim certainty of 'enlightenment' or 'last life' or any such 'elitism'... by default such individuals are far from all those things.

A true master does not need to inform anyone of their 'level'. And a master at a craft (any craft) does not give away their 'knowledge' or 'secrets' by full disclosure (see surgeon allegory above).

I can make the Stone, but how I do it is a secret. = disqualified

In all trades there is a need for people to be 'the one'. This is a human trait that happens when any group is formed, there is always someone that becomes 'the one', and someone who wants to be 'the one'. This is a trap. And as big a trap for those who want to become the 'leader', as it is for the leader him/herself. Unless that individual fully understands the cosmic joke.

However someone that claims to fully understand the cosmic joke, is also full of shit. IMO.

But good luck with all your 'hobbies'. Everything anyone would do without reward is, in a sense, a hobby. So nothing 'low' or 'less' about that.

:p

black
08-09-2017, 12:27 PM
@ Axis.....Very good points. I must confess Axis you have stirred me to thinking that if I did become a Master Alchemist some day, how would I openly share the knowledge with those that need it.
I shall take this line of thought under deep consideration.

@Awani....What you have written sits well and true with me.


Thank you both for your valued critique.

Kiorionis
08-09-2017, 01:00 PM
In the vernacular those here who have suggested just reading and meditating are likely just up themselves.

I think it's funny that most people assume meditation leads nowhere. Especially those people who practice evocation, invocation or Astral projection. All of these are brought out through reading and meditating. In fact, if you don't know how to meditate, you won't be successful in these types of practices.

In the Taoist practice of Weidan (inner alchemy), there is only reading and meditating on the occult/energy body. The lab work is internal, and highly productive and rewarding; in my opinion, meditation is the only way to "Know Thyself" -- which is a requirennet for advancement and success.

As the Mahabharata states: Science is the contemplation of Self

Illen A. Cluf
08-09-2017, 01:47 PM
Before anyone jumps to unwarranted conclusions, let me be clear. I do not, and have never claimed to be a Master. I'm just a humble, but passionate student like many of you. I have also never claimed to have made the Stone.

I just believe to have unraveled some of the mystery behind the identification of the prima materia as well as the process, based on an intensive study of very old texts, particularly the sections involving their understanding of how Nature works, as well as decoding some of their allegorical stories. Anyone can do this with enough study, and as I tried to stress, making an effort to think like the ancients did, based on their limited understanding of science. As long as you hold strongly to your modern biases, this unraveling will likely not happen easily. Is my understanding correct? All I know is that it appears to be consistent across a number of old texts, so that's only my first step. My next step is to continue this process to flush out some of the details, and conduct some experimentation. This will help fill in the details. At that point I can conduct a proper experiment and see what develops.

As for revealing anything, there is not a single person on this forum (out of hundreds) who has revealed any significant secrets. Yet there are many who have hinted that they know something, but refuse to reveal them openly. Some of these people are even strongly admired by those who accuse me of not revealing what I know. Take for example Green Lion. He has claimed to have uncovered the secret to making SM. Yet, I do not see the current members belittling him or demanding to know what he knows? Why is that? Why are some belittled while others are not?

At this point, what I have uncovered is yet unverified. I still have lots of work to do to determine whether or not my theories have any validity. So why should I reveal what I know at this time? The point of my posts was not to disclose unproven theories, but to stress the importance of studying old texts, particularly the theoretical/philosophical sections of the texts and thinking as they did 1000 or 1500 years ago. That's it. So please focus on that part of what I have been trying to say, rather than trying to belittle me for not giving out unproven theories. There's already far too much confusion in these forums regarding unproven theories given out as fact. We just don't need any more.

The whole subject of whether or not alchemical secrets should be freely handed out has already been addressed numerous times in many threads on this forum. If everyone thinks that it should be openly revealed, then why, at this point of time, after over a thousand years, are we all still in the dark? Obviously those who do know have a very important reason why those secrets should not be openly revealed, since not one single person in all that time, of those who did know, has revealed them openly. Please think about that before you begin to attack those who may have stumbled onto some of the secrets.

black
08-09-2017, 02:31 PM
Well then theres always the passionate, die-hard alchemy lover who is still just a fool and who slips further and further into mental and physical illness while all the while spending every dollar they have trying to heal....

Alchemy's a bitch. But I love her ;)

OH....Mr. Mixer

You have everything going for you.

You are passionate about this work and you have youth on your side.
I was in my 40's when I started Alchemy, now I'm closer to 70 than 60.
Only wish I knew about Alchemy when I was your age.

My health is not what it was and I'm finding it harder to think and
read, so take it from an older student of the Art and make the best of the years you have.

Study hard, learn all you can, then put it to the test in the lab.

Illen A. Cluf
08-09-2017, 02:53 PM
Thank you Mr Cluf.

As I see it.... the First Key of Alchemy is the desire, fortitude, and tenacity to be able to study.

And when I say study I mean more than 2 or 3 pages of reading per week or day for that matter.

I went through years when I would study alchemy for about 30 hours per week or more. I even read during lunch and coffee breaks at work.


If you do the work / study and the PRACTICAL you will clearly know
which authors write True Alchemy and which ones do not.

It's always safest and most instructive to go back to the earliest texts, particularly the Arabic texts, which they preserved from earlier sources.


As I have written before , one of the reasons Alchemists do not share this understanding / knowledge of the work OPENLY is that it would deprive a soul of so much very important growth etc, etc.

Exactly! Learning alchemy is one thing, but allowing your soul to grow is far more important. As such, even though alchemy can become a passion, there are actually other far more effective ways of allowing your soul to develop.


Nobody rides for free.

Yet today, many expect everything for free. Look at all the youth today who steal music and do not pay a penny towards the struggling musicians by purchasing their albums or CD's. Few wish to take responsibility for themselves.

Schmuldvich
08-09-2017, 04:24 PM
I challenge you to prove me that works like the Coelum Philosophorum, or Baron Rusestein's manuscripts, or the works of Tugel, or the Golden Chain of Homer, even the Vegetable Work of Isaac Hollandus or Basil Valentine Triumphal Chariot or Manuals, are written using decknames and cryptic terms.

Earlier you advised another member of that forum to study every alchemical work which he can find in sites like rexresearch.com. If some of those works werent written by real adepts, as you now say, why didnt you show him which works are good and genuine productions and which ones were written by charlatans? I believe that this little thing would have helped me a lot.
I will not take the time to "prove to you" the above works contain absolute Truth.

(One cannot explain to a child multiplication unless the child first understands addition)

The same goes for spoonfeeding you or anyone else...You must first have a foundation. No one is going to show you which works are good and genuine...this is something you must take time to do for yourself.

Some people on this message board leave breadcrumbs (hints) for the genuine Seeker. What we choose to do with these breadcrumbs differs from person to person. We all progress and learn at different speeds. Some here are more mature than others and capable of learning while others are stuck in their old ways and never change.




I went through years when I would study alchemy for about 30 hours per week or more. I even read during lunch and coffee breaks at work.
Provided here by Illen is a wonderful example of someone dedicated to our Art. Is this not an example we should all follow?

I know at least for for me--besides providing for myself--everything including relationships, friends, and fun is on the backburner until I achieve my Goal. This is called sacrifice and something that everyone genuinely dedicated to learning about Alchemy should consider. Nothing is more important to me than learning the secrets of this Universe. I have found my passion in life and what I have dedicated this earthy existence to.




I have no clue why people get so hung on Philalethes/Starkey. I read some of Starkey's lab notes, he also wrote under the pseudonym of Philalethes, and was not a genuine adept.
Interesting to hear this coming from your mouth!



As I continually strive to say, “you have to be able to think like the alchemists did 1000 or 1500 years ago”. They thought very different from how we think today, and I agree that it’s very difficult to put ourselves in their sandals. If they saw a comet, they would report seeing a “fiery serpent” in the sky or something like that. That doesn’t mean that it really was a burning snake, but that it visually gave the impression of a burning snake. It was their poetic and imaginative way of describing a real observance to others at the time.

So, you say that because these theories were wrong, we can’t deduce anything useful from what they said in the theoretical sections of their treatises. I totally disagree - we can still accurately deduce their observations, which are the real key, not the theories.

I’m not sure how I can make this any more clear.
YES! Not only can we learn from their observations, but we can also learn from comprehending the spirit of their words. Many Masters did not write openly and preferred to deliver their teachings in veiled speech that few can understand. As pointed out earlier, the multifaceted tool that Sages used is called an acroamatic cipher.


http://i.imgur.com/yrg5wQA.png




As I see it.... the First Key of Alchemy is the desire, fortitude, and tenacity to be able to study. And when I say study I mean more than 2 or 3 pages of reading per week or day for that matter. For the majority of the members of this forum, Alchemy is a pastime / hobby and that is ok. They will not learn anything of value in this Art.

For a very, very small percentage of members Alchemy is their passion, it has become their whole meaning and purpose in life. These are the few that will gain the understanding to evolve in the Great Work of Alchemy.

One of the reasons Alchemists do not share this understanding / knowledge of the work OPENLY is that it would deprive a soul of so much very important growth etc, etc.
Each person on Earth has their own journey with things to learn. We all have different starting points and end points, and we all have differing levels of dedication to what we study. Everyone is different and I respect that. I like how you point out that the first step in learning something is desire, I completely agree!




Learning to play the violin requires commitment and discipline and PRACTICE to achieve results.

There is I think a quality that is being missed here that of spiritual maturity - I have the secret but I'm not telling - narcissism and psychological crutch as I mention previous.
One way to learn is by having someone show you. A second way is trial and error, picking up a violin and playing for hours until you get it. A third way is by studying the works of predecessors and learning through them.

More than one way to learn how to play the violin exists, and each way has its strengths and weaknesses, much like Alchemy. Everyone has their preferred method and own path.

With all of the countless ways to learn to play a violin, every single way requires a foundation. The more solid the foundation, the easier it is to successfully accomplish the goal sought. My method of learning was reading everything I could find in order to get familiar with the Subject; very little made sense at first but I knew I was on the right path. Then I re-read the same books after having read many others of the same Subject, and I began to see the parallels. Once I saw the parallels, I again re-read the same books over and over again and slowly began to emerge what I discerned to be Truth. When I established what I believed to be a sound foundation of Truth, I needed to put this "understanding" through tests to see if what I believed I was comprehending was actually Truth. After years of studying and laying down the groundwork I was finally ready to assess my knowledge of the Subject I sought to understand. I did this by performing experiments and was overjoyed to see the things I saw exactly paralleled what the predecessors before me previously saw! Everything they said was true! All of the reading and learning helped me get to where I am today. I do not think I am a Master, nor do I believe that I am better or more special than anybody. Anyone can get to where I am today.

Being more advanced than others does not make anyone a Master. It simply proves that they have done more study and spent more time sifting through fluff, learning, comprehending, and understanding their Art. Their dedication shows, and the fruits of their labor become readily apparent to everybody. We can all learn from Masters.



"Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inside are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits: they do not gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles, do they?" Matthew 7:15-16


I have never seen anyone openly confess to having obtained The Philosophers Stone on the Alchemy Forums.

Mr. Axis how does anyone get a good, clear, solid foundation of Alchemic theory ????
Because no one has!!! Many have come close and are on the right path, but not one individual here has the Philosopher's Stone in their possession.



I understand that I will not be able to change anyone's opinion here, it should also be understood that sometimes I will not simply put up with nonsense.
Words change people. The second you give up is the second you stop making a change. Your input is appreciated and valued! Please continue to share!

Axismundi000
08-09-2017, 05:29 PM
I think it's funny that most people assume meditation leads nowhere. Especially those people who practice evocation, invocation or Astral projection. All of these are brought out through reading and meditating. In fact, if you don't know how to meditate, you won't be successful in these types of practices.

In the Taoist practice of Weidan (inner alchemy), there is only reading and meditating on the occult/energy body. The lab work is internal, and highly productive and rewarding; in my opinion, meditation is the only way to "Know Thyself" -- which is a requirennet for advancement and success.

As the Mahabharata states: Science is the contemplation of Self

As a person who practices evocation, Invocation and projection I have not said meditation leads nowhere although pratyahara practice actualy does and that is the point of that particular meditation. I should think by now my view is fairly clear that for Lab Alchemy which I think comes under the heading Practical Alchemy just sitting around reading old Alchemy books and meditating is not enough, actual practical lab activity is also necessary. Sure with the spiritual or inner Alchemy this is what people do. If someone said they were talking about inner/spiritual Alchemy and said just read 4 books a day and meditate I would have not bothered to respond. From other threads I note you seem familiar with Bardon's material Kiorionis so you must realise a lot of meditative practice is part of that work. Why this perverse persistence in assuming a view must be entirely polar? Especially when I have repeatedly agreed in various posts that reading Alchemy books and meditation has value?

elixirmixer
08-20-2017, 09:41 AM
Okay, so, I am going to make........ The Stone.

Not a stone.

Not the RC Blood stone (actually ill be making that as well) ((This is not THE stone btw :p))

I am going the make The Philosophers Stone

I am going to record the progress, I wont leave much hidden other than what is forbidden to reveal.

I am going to couple this expedition with a 40 day fasting cycle using only herbal teas and spagyrics to keep my body functioning. I've learnt that fasting coupled with lots of sleep is the most effective way to detoxify your brain. Reason being, is that after 24 hours of fasting, the body begins to break down fat cells, which release a drug to the brain called ketone! These ketones act as stimulation for mitochondria within the cells (the part of the cell that's responsible for most of its energy production) and during sleep, these hyped up mitochondria begin flushing out the brain.

I've decided now, that when I make the philosophers stone, I am going to have an absolute cap of a certain amount of gold created and never any more. I feel very un-easy about making gold with the stone, at the same time, i'm also aware that God didnt give me the thing for nothing and He knows that I am deeply sick of not providing for my own family, on my own.

I am taking the manufacturing of SM quite seriously. It seems to me that SM does in fact have multiple uses and it benefits the alchemist significantly to have this Spirit in as high a volumes as possible.

In order to do that, and have the ability to make an endless supply, things are going to have to get pretty serious around here. First thing in the morning I'm spending $1000AU on some serious fire power. An oxy/propane blowtorch kit, with some nice big cylinders of fuel. I will be practising the art of making my own glassware contraptions to extract The Spirit. In the long term, its better than buying glassware I need because glassware is fucking expensive so if I want multiple apparatus to make SM (and I do) then I will have to learn to make my own.

My question for the group is, what should I do with the stone after I have it?

black
08-20-2017, 10:48 AM
Hey....Mr. Mixer

Some more friendly advice.

Buying oxy / acet gear and renting the gas bottles is a total waste of your time and money.

The only way to learn glass blowing properly is to work with a scientific / lab ware
glass blower.

If you have a spare year or two for this, then go ahead.


I have spent many hours watching my glass blower work, he makes it look
easy .....IT'S NOT.

You have more glassware than you need.

In years to come you will find out that you have wasted an enormous amount
of money, time and effort on stuff that you did not need.

What you really need is to know what you are doing before you start buying stuff.

Please print this out and pin it on your lab wall, look at it in 5 or 10 years and
have a giggle.

Kiorionis
08-20-2017, 01:13 PM
I am going to couple this expedition with a 40 day fasting cycle using only herbal teas and spagyrics to keep my body functioning.

Some more information you might be interested in, pertaining to fasting. Herbert Shelton writes in The Science and Fine Art of Fasting (https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/164176514/The-Science-and-Fine-Art-of-Fasting-Herbert-M-Shelton-pdf) that the human body can safely lose about 15-20% (maybe it was 30? Can't remember) of its starting weight during a fast.

I fasted for 9 days last fall and lost 15% of my weight in the first 5 days. After that it was about 1% per day of weight loss. That is, starting weight at 145lbs, and after five days I was down to about 120lbs

Anyways. Paying attention to the body weight, plus pulse, is essential. Also, I totally recommend reading Shelton's book during your fast. It will help motivate you and calm any negative thoughts like "oh shit, I'm gonna die!!"

He also mentions that the body becomes much more sensitive to nutritional intake. So while eating, you might be able to drink a whole pot of tea and feel fine, but during the fast it will hit you heavily after just one cup!

In other words, cut back to a very small dosage!

elixirmixer
09-26-2017, 04:10 AM
Spiritus Mundi is a very interesting substance. It seems to have the ability to even volatize water itself. It also naturally circulates, even when the temperature is constant all the way around the bottle/flask.

Another thing i've noticed is that it changes the magnetic properties of water, effecting its hydrogen bonding. Water impregnated with SM seems to 'avoid' other waters if possible. I noticed that when vapour that contained SM, water, and fragrance molecules is gentle distilled, the water would literally avoid gathering in areas on the glass that had droplets of distilled water presence from poorly drying the flask prior to use.I find these new properties very interesting.

The most interesting of these properties has to be this ability to volatilise other materials. I'm yet to see if this special water will volatilise plant salts, however, if it does, that basically means that im on the money and am going to finally be able to help people at the capacity I would like.

I encourage everyone in Australia to come to the Australian Alchemy forum catch up party. If all goes well, I will have samples of the true alchemical plant stone to share with all of our members.

JDP
09-26-2017, 04:44 AM
Spiritus Mundi is a very interesting substance. It seems to have the ability to even volatize water itself. It also naturally circulates, even when the temperature is constant all the way around the bottle/flask.

Another thing i've noticed is that it changes the magnetic properties of water, effecting its hydrogen bonding. Water impregnated with SM seems to 'avoid' other waters if possible. I noticed that when vapour that contained SM, water, and fragrance molecules is gentle distilled, the water would literally avoid gathering in areas on the glass that had droplets of distilled water presence from poorly drying the flask prior to use.I find these new properties very interesting.

http://www.bicycleorgycollective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/CoverArt_Pinery1.jpg

elixirmixer
09-26-2017, 05:16 AM
Your hatred for SM is hilarious JDP. Good to see Awani didnt boot your ass out of here :o:cool:

JDP
09-26-2017, 05:21 AM
Your hatred for SM is hilarious JDP. Good to see Awani didnt boot your ass out of here :o:cool:

Can someone really "hate" something that there is no shred of proof it actually exists??? It would be like "hating" the Tooth-Fairy.

elixirmixer
09-26-2017, 06:52 AM
What would you do if somebody DID PROVE that SM exists JDP?

How would that change the way you look at Alchemy do you think?

JDP
09-26-2017, 07:26 AM
What would you do if somebody DID PROVE that SM exists JDP?

How would that change the way you look at Alchemy do you think?

I would become the most stout defender of SM the Universe has ever seen. I am the champion of empirical facts, so SM would not be an exception. I would defend its reality with teeth & nails.

Andro
09-26-2017, 07:33 AM
I would become the most stout defender of SM the Universe has ever seen. I am the champion of empirical facts, so SM would not be an exception. I would defend its reality with teeth & nails.

EM, send JDP a sample!

Perhaps then we'll finally have some empirical lab tests to see what it really is :)

elixirmixer
09-26-2017, 08:31 AM
Yes, I'd love a professional analysis of what it is! I wasn't sure it was really a done thing, sending out samples, because I assumed that people would have already done it.

I only have teeny tiny amounts right now, however, I imagine that when this stone is complete ill have a radical new spark in life since after 13 long years ill finally have a medicine that I can rightly call "Alchemical", and this should be all I need to move forward and increase the SM yields around here.

I should also clarify that I'm not making it pure at the moment. I've "stolen" it, and it does contain water. However, this water behaves very differently to normal water.

Slightly off topic, but still relivant, Andro, please share, have you consumed the Volatized Salts, and if so, what remarks could you share about there effectiveness as a medicine?

And yes, happy to send a sample, and also do my own gas-chromatography when I do have some in it's pure form. I hope I get around to it this spring, however there are a lot of important projects going on around here ATM so I might miss out.

elixirmixer
11-16-2017, 08:49 PM
I think that Im ready to start researching the Philosophers Stone from the angle that people such as Smuldvich, Illen, Mr. Black recommend; by READING about it.

Could I please get a few peoples favorite tracts that teach how to make the true stone please? Ill make a promise to come back with a bunch of quotes and pictures for what its worth :)

Dragon's Tail
11-16-2017, 09:49 PM
I don't have it, but I think everything we need to know is in the emerald tablet. I have several translations, just with I could find one from 8th century Arabic directly translated to English impartially, possibly with notes about possible variations on certain lines. Every time I read over it, I learn something new. Perhaps the writing itself is a fountain that must be continually digested, distilled, and cohabated ;)

Kiorionis
11-16-2017, 11:06 PM
Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Lu K'uan Yu.

I know it's a book on internal alchemy.. but as within, so without.

The concepts it covers (microcosmic agent, macrocosm agent, forming the "fetus", the slow and quick fires, etc) is all relevant to the greater works. Including the Philosophic stone.

Schmuldvich
11-17-2017, 01:10 AM
I think that Im ready to start researching the Philosophers Stone from the angle that people such as Smuldvich, Illen, Mr. Black recommend; by READING about it.

Could I please get a few peoples favorite tracts that teach how to make the true stone please? Ill make a promise to come back with a bunch of quotes and pictures for what its worth :)

Dwellings has been posting some great excerpts here: Easy To Read & Comprehend Alchemical Tracts (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5393-Easy-to-Read-amp-Comprehend-Alchemical-Tracts)


Personally, I appreciate Albert Magnus and Sendivogius for their wording. Though they both veiled their speech, as most legitimate Alchemists did, the way they present their knowledge resonates well within me.

Louis Grassot is someone I keep going back to over and over again. His lucidity and fluff-free delivery is totally up my alley.

Rhumelius and Cyliani both clear up tons of minor details regarding the more advanced stages of our Work.

Philalethes provides wonderful insights and is supremely easy reading compared to most authors.

Glauber wrote so much! He stimulates the mind with many interesting ideas and concepts if you're willing to take the time to read through all he has to say. Boerhaave too!

Roger Bacon, George Ripley, and Basil Valentine of course. These Masters are never to be forgotten and their works should be read over and over again.

Flamel provides neat symbolism interpretation that can help you understand Alchemy more sufficiently, and as hesitant as I am to recommend modern authors Fulcanelli is worth poking through when you have time.

Don't forget to read the "Turba Philosophorum" and "Rosarium Philosophorum" while you're at it!

Arnold de Villa Nova, Morenius, Artephius, Zosimos, etc.

...Too many to list!


http://www.rexresearch.com/alchindx.htm

http://alchemywebsite.com/texts.html

https://philosophiauniversalis.com/genuine-alchemy-texts/


--------------


http://www.goodgame.org.nz/alchemicalTexts.html


-------------


Buy R.A.M.S.: http://ramsdigital.com/buy.html

black
11-17-2017, 11:06 PM
I think that Im ready to start researching the Philosophers Stone from the angle that people such as Smuldvich, Illen, Mr. Black recommend; by READING about it.

Could I please get a few peoples favorite tracts that teach how to make the true stone please? Ill make a promise to come back with a bunch of quotes and pictures for what its worth :)

Good to hear it Mr. Mixer

Read, read, read, pray then work in the lab.

Possibly in a few months you will have a very different view
from the way you perceive things now.

Just like to add that Mr. Schmuldvich's list is a great place to start.

elixirmixer
11-22-2017, 08:18 PM
So what is so hard about making the Stone exactly?

I think I get the general idea, quite simple really.... so then why don't you ALL have the Stone?

What makes it a difficult process to complete?

Prima materia, natural seperation, physical seperation, putrifaction, sublimation, a little more heat, coagulation, sublimation, all the while you'd (should be obvious to many of you but sadly i do t think it is) be channelling addition etheric energies into the flask (since it is after all the goal)

If all goes well a nice red salt and Bobs your auntie.

What am I forgetting or over-looking?

It cant really be this easy although i just can't see where the pitfalls are right now....

The fire regiment is the only issue?

elixirmixer
11-22-2017, 08:28 PM
Schmuldvich is always asking "Do you think anyone has the Stone?" And im starting to think that quite a few of you do have some very powerful stones. I mean all the info is right here isnt it and you cant all possibly be that lazy as to never have completed this stuff.

Am i missing something? Or are you all just super secretive about "ownership of stonership"?

Schmuldvich
11-22-2017, 08:37 PM
So what is so hard about making the Stone exactly?

In my opinion, the hardest part about Alchemy is getting acquainted with Hermeticism. Once the foundation and fundamental understanding has been acquired, the principles start to make sense and a general comprehension of how Alchemy works is understood. Then one can being the Work.



I think I get the general idea, quite simple really.... so then why don't you ALL have the Stone?

"Divine Providence", to quote Axismundi



What makes it a difficult process to complete?

Finding the One Matter, then preparing it, being patient, and then properly proceeding through the Processes.



Schmuldvich is always asking "Do you think anyone has the Stone?" And im starting to think that quite a few of you do have some very powerful stones. I mean all the info is right here isnt it and you cant all possibly be that lazy as to never have completed this stuff. Am i missing something?

People tend to want to complicate the simplicity of the Work and insert their own way of working which does not align with Alchemical principles.

Dragon's Tail
11-22-2017, 08:57 PM
My opinion: We're all trying to recreate the "shortcuts" that evolved over the centuries without understanding the original progression, materials, and products. Do you think there were Egyptians that had the stone in 2600BC? The Sumerians in 4000 BC? Who made the first one? What was their viewpoint? Why were they fiddling with the matter in these ways to begin with?

Beer and Breadmaking? Wine and manna are mentioned in the bible, and it's even been surmised that manna is a special kind of baked good. Unless you think Hermes dropped out of a spaceship (and even if you believe that), at some point in history, someone confectioned this thing without knowing it's powers, perhaps speculation about the nature of certain matters, and trying to produce something from them, even if they didn't know all of the properties from the start. This is why I think chasing gold is silly. We're trying to get to the end without going through the means, or understanding the processes. Maybe we should focus on manna and magic wine, and we'll stumble across the correct formula. Or perhaps even more simply, creating a more perfect "food" that can't be degraded by using metals instead of wheat.

Just a bit of DT speculation.

elixirmixer
11-22-2017, 09:23 PM
Well then. I best start the work.

As there are CLEARLY multiple sources for materia, im going to proceed via the Schmuldvich method. (Simply because it is much cheaper than the method id prefer to use) My own red liquid gold. And ill be maily focusing on what I can do to induce electric and magnetic fluids which seems to be the key to the shortcuts.

This process normally takes a year, however this is the reason God gave us pyramids. Anyhow, lets see how we go.

Have you achieved anything of worth through your work Schmuldvich? Ive seen some very beautiful pictures from you of the first salt. Thats very promising. What happened after that? Ever gotten to the red salt?

Schmuldvich
11-22-2017, 10:12 PM
Have you achieved anything of worth through your work Schmuldvich?
No


Ive seen some very beautiful pictures from you of the first salt. Thats very promising. What happened after that?
The salts melted like tears and then sublimed again like doves


Ever gotten to the red salt?
No


...As there are CLEARLY multiple sources for materia...
Are you sure about that...?









"A Magnificent And Select Tract On The Universal Water"

There is something which everyone recognizes, and whoever does not recognize it will rarely, perhaps never find it. The wise man will keep it and the fool will throw it away, and the reduction comes easily to the man who knows it. But, my son, the greatest secret of all is how to free the stone or mercurium vivum from the natural bonds with which it is bound to the laws of Nature, that is, how to dissolve it and return it to its original water. For if this did not happen, all our work would be in vain, for we could not separate and extract the true spirit or liquid essence which dissolves all corpora. And all the philosophers have kept this dissolution secret, and God the Almighty in His Power has ordered them to do this, and they have cursed and damned the men who have revealed it. For this reason they have spoken only briefly and subtly of the return of this raw body to its original essence, so that it can remain hidden to the ignorant. But you, my son, must understand that this dissolving of the living mercurii to its original state is difficult without knowledge of certain methods, but no sophistic methods can be used, as are used by many coarse ignorant and unknowing fools, who change the mercurium into water using many marvelous arts and believe that it is the true water. They sublimate the mercurium by corrosiva with all sorts of salts and vitriols, whereby the sublimated mercurius draws the spirit of the salts into itself. Then they dissolve the sublimate in water in Balneo or in the cellar or in various other ways. Then they turn it into water using salmiac and herbs, salves or aqua fort, using peculiar apparatus and many sophistic rules, but all of this is mere fantasy, nonsense, useless and in vain. Some of them also think that they can separate certain things from the water of mercury and that it will become the true water which the philosophers desire. The reason for this is simply that they do not heed the words of the philosophers which say quite clearly that it should be mixed with no foreign object on earth.









"A Brief Outline Of The Whole Philosophia Particulari Demonstrativa"

But should fortune smile upon him so warmly that he finds the true Philosophical way, he can without doubt rook forward to more and greater successes and see in everything a happy end of that which we have promised him in the first and second part of this treatise, provided the great sovereign, in His ineffable goodness, will likewise bestow His Grace and blessing upon it, without which it is impossible to succeed even in the meanest undertaking no matter how much and how heavy one's work, especially if the love of God and our fellowman were lost sight of - And it is just this love that we recommend. above all to every righteous Christian and especially to those who follow our maxims and are intent on fathoming the deepest secrets of nature. For if it happens that one turns away from his Creator and obeys the deceitful words of the devil, the eyes of his body and soul will be so obscured and darkened that he cannot even see the rarities which God keeps hidden under the dark cover of the philosophical demonstration, let alone comprehend them. And this is the sole reason why so few persons, who mostly keep their thoughts fixed on the probing of the many secrets which it contains, attain to this high science, because their blindness prevents them from distinguishing between realities and sophistries. Instead, those who do not allow themselves to be alienated from our great Sovereign in anyway, obtain their righteous purpose and final goal with little trouble and in great happiness.









"Hyle & Coahyl"

This matter is known to all true philosophers, and it is the true Agens and Patiens (active and passive factor), as will be heard later in both operations. The process of making the Lapidem from it does not suffer any sophistry, but it is a work of nature. For nature is quite bad and consists of only one single matter, but, as we have said above, of two substances. Also, you require only one vessel, at most two, and one water in both works.









"Glory Of The World"

You have good cause to wonder at the great variety of ways in which the Sages have expressed the same thing. Nevertheless, their descriptions apply only to one Matter, and their sayings refer only to a single substance.









"Chemical Moonshine"

You should trouble yourselves neither with the putting together of many things, nor with those things which the Philosophers have set in their books; for the secret of the truth is a single nature, and that has hidden it in its belly, invisibly, and is known only by the sages.









"Root Of The World

You ought to put on courage, resolution, and constancy, in attempting this great work, lest you err, and be deceived, sometimes following or doing one thing, and then another. For the knowledge of this art consisteth not in the multiplicity, or great number of things, but in unity; our stone is but one, the matter is one, and the vessel is one. The government is one, and the disposition is one. The whole art and work thereof is one, and begins in one manner, and in one manner it is finished. Notwithstanding the philosophers have subtily delivered themselves, and clouded their instructions with enigmatical and typical phrases and words, to the end that their art might not only be hidden and so continued, but also be had in the greater veneration. Thus they advise to decoct, to commix, and to conjoin, to sublime, to bake, to grind, and to congeal; to make equal, to putrefy, to make white, and to make red; of all which things, the order, management, and way of working is all one, which is only to decoct. And therefore to grind is to decoct, of which you are not to be weary, saith Rhasis: digest continually, but not in haste, that is, not wit too great a fire; cease not, or make no intermission in your work, follow not the artifice of sophisters, but pursue your operation, to the complement and perfection thereof.









"Zoraster's Cave"

Although the wise men have varied names and perplext their sayings, yet they allwayes would have us think but of One Thing, one Disposition, one Way, The wise men know this one thing; and, that is one, they have often proved.









"Coelum Philosophorum"

Moreover, in this Art nothing is more true than this, though it be little known and gains small confidence. All the fault and cause of difficulty in Alchemy, whereby very many persons are reduced to poverty, and others labour in vain, is wholly and solely lack of skill in the operator, and the defect or excess of materials, whether in quantity or quality, whence it ensues that, in the course of operation, things are wasted or reduced to nothing. If the true process shall have been found, the substance itself while transmuting approaches daily more and more towards perfection. The straight road is easy, but it is found by very few.









"Compound Of Compounds"

Take then, in the name of Jesus Christ, our venerable Water of the Philosophers, original Hyle of the Sages; it is the stone that one revealed for you in this treatise. It is the first matter of the perfect body, as you have determined. Put your matter in a furnace, into a clean vessel, clear transparent and round, whose opening you will hermetically seal, so that nothing can escape. Your matter is to be placed on a level bed or surface, slightly hot. You will leave it there for one Philosophical month. Maintain the heat evenly, so that the perspiration of the matter will sublime, until it sweats no longer, that nothing rises or descends, That it begins to putrefy, to suffocate, to coagulate and to fix by maintaining the constancy of the fire. It will not raise more of the exalted, smoky substance, and our Mercury will remain on the bottom, dry, robbed of its humidity, putrefied, coagulated, changed to a black earth, that one calls Head of the Raven, a dry and earthy element. When you have done this, you will have accomplished the genuine sublimation of the Philosophers, during this you will have examined all the aforementioned stages, to wit: sublimation of the Mercury, distillation, coagulation, fixation, in one only vessel and with one only furnace as was stated. Indeed when our stone is in its vessel, and it is increase, one says that there is sublimation or ascension. When afterwards it again settles to the bottom, one says that there is distillation or precipitation. Next, when after the distillation and sublimation, our stone begins to putrefy and to coagulate, it is the putrefaction and the coagulation; finally when it calcines and fixes through the loss of its radical, aqueous humidity. It is the calcinations and fixation; all this is done through the single act of heating, in a single furnace, in a single vessel, as was said.









"Secret Book Of Artephius"

It sufficeth thee then to put the bodies in the vessel, and into the water once and for all, and to close the vessel well, until a true separation is made. This the obscure artist calls conjunction, sublimation, assation, extraction, putrefaction, ligation, desponsation, subtilization, generation, etc. Now the whole magistery may be perfected, work, as in the generation of man, and of every vegetable; put the seed once into the womb, and shut it up well. Thus you may see that you need not many things, and that this our work requires no great charges, for that there is but one stone, there is but one medicine, one vessel, one order of working, and one successive disposition to the white and to the red. And although we say in many places, take this, and take that, yet we understand, that it behoves us to take but one thing, and put it once into the vessel, until the work be perfected. But these things are so set down by obscure philosophers to deceive the unwary, as we have before spoken; for is not this "ars cabalistica" or a secret and a hidden art? Is it not an art full of secrets? And believest thou O fool that we plainly teach this secret of secrets, taking our words according to their literal signification? Truly, I tell thee, that as for myself, I am no ways self seeking, or envious as others are; but he that takes the words of the other philosophers according to their common signification, he even already, having lost Ariadne's clue of thread, wanders in the midst of the labyrinth, multiplies errors, and casts away his money for naught.









"Book Of Morienus"

The wise varied their maxims and compositions only because they wished them to be understood by men of wisdom and prudence, while the ignorant should remain blind to them; clearly it was for this reason that the wise wrote variously in their books of the stages of the operation. There is but one stage and one path necessary for its mastery. Although all the authorities used different names and maxims, they meant to refer to but one thing, one path and one stage.

elixirmixer
11-22-2017, 10:37 PM
What are thr practical problems/roadblocks that you have faced in the lab causing you not to succeed?

Yes i believe it is one matter. SM. I Just believe that there are multiple matters which contain/collect this SM. I'll be starting with the same.matter you use Schmuldvich but I am 100% possitive there are better alternatives. However; this one is much more readily available.

Does anybody know of any "techniques" that would result in higher yeild of white crystal?

I was thinking... say you sublime the salts, and then removed them? Would the dry earth attract more spirit all on its own?

Schmuldvich
11-22-2017, 10:48 PM
What are thr practical problems/roadblocks that you have faced in the lab causing you not to succeed?
Ignorance mainly, lack of experience, as well self-imposed impedances and lack of "Divine Providence" (ala Axismundi).

It is not the right time for me to see Success. All things happen in due time.




Does anybody know of any "techniques" that would result in higher yeild of white crystal? I was thinking... say you sublime the salts, and then removed them? Would the dry earth attract more spirit all on its own?

Why would you want a higher yield of these white crystals?

JDP
11-22-2017, 11:05 PM
So what is so hard about making the Stone exactly?

I think I get the general idea, quite simple really.... so then why don't you ALL have the Stone?

What makes it a difficult process to complete?

Three words: the secret solvent. Discovering how to make it is a Royal Pain in the Neck because the alchemists themselves have purposefully made a veritable chaos out of this crucial subject, to make sure it would be hard as hell to crack it. That, and what exactly to dissolve and treat with it, is why they have written so many vague, obscure and misleading things, specially the absurd "one matter only" transparent trap that so many in past centuries have fallen for over and over, and, incredibly enough, some still do in this day and age. Fortunately, some alchemists (like Zosimos, for example, who keeps kindly warning the reader about this over and over in some of his treatises) have been generous enough to clear up this death-trap and clarify for the seeker that this "one matter only" is actually put together out of several chosen matters by the alchemist himself (this composite is not found already naturally made for your convenience anywhere on this planet, rest assured of that; it has to be made on purpose by the intelligent intervention of man. So if you ever were lucky enough to manage to find it already made "somewhere", it is because an alchemist made it, considering that Nature itself has no friggin' clue how to make it anymore than it does know how to make, say, TNT, teflon or Coca-Cola, yet it still provides mankind with all the raw matters to be able to make these artificial things) and making them react in the right proportions and under the right conditions.


Prima materia, natural seperation, physical seperation, putrifaction, sublimation, a little more heat, coagulation, sublimation,

Easier said than done. Without the appropriate solvent or "water", and the right metallic matter dissolved & treated with it, you will never perform these operations (in the alchemical sense of them.)


all the while you'd (should be obvious to many of you but sadly i do t think it is) be channelling addition etheric energies into the flask (since it is after all the goal)

This part = pure uncorroborated speculation regarding things no one has any proof that they even exist in the first place.


What am I forgetting or over-looking?

As usual, you "forget" that the secret solvent, or "water", or "mercury", or whatever you want to call it, of the alchemists forms an integral part of the finished substance of the Stone, therefore you will NEVER be able to prepare it without discovering what this secret solvent/water is first.


It cant really be this easy although i just can't see where the pitfalls are right now....

It isn't. Of course, once you manage to figure out the above mentioned obstacles, the whole thing becomes easier, just like in any other discipline. For example, when bakers first start learning how to make breads and cakes, they too find it more difficult than when they have actually learnt and mastered the "tricks" of their trade. Same with alchemy and any other job that requires acquired skills.


The fire regiment is the only issue?

Not even by a long stretch, or at least not later on in the work, when the already prepared matter is "cooking" inside the flask with a linear heat treatment (and given portions of its "food/drink" when it needs it.) The initial stages, which consist in figuring out what are the right matters to use, and their proportions, to compose the "Chaos", "Magnesia", "Saturn", "Sericon", "Azoquean Vitriol", or whatever-you-want-to-call-it initial secret mixture, together with the right operations/temperatures/etc. to submit it to, is the toughest part of the whole subject since most alchemists have barely uttered anything clear and unambiguous regarding this most important of all parts of the work.

JDP
11-23-2017, 12:09 AM
My opinion: We're all trying to recreate the "shortcuts" that evolved over the centuries without understanding the original progression, materials, and products. Do you think there were Egyptians that had the stone in 2600BC? The Sumerians in 4000 BC? Who made the first one? What was their viewpoint? Why were they fiddling with the matter in these ways to begin with?

Nobody knows. In my opinion it was very likely an accidental discovery, like a lot of other discoveries in the history of mankind. When the appropriate ancient technologies had evolved enough for people to have access to ceramic and glass flasks/bottles, distillation of things other than simple natural substances/mixtures, like common sea water or metallic mercury, for example, was possible (the first notices we have of distillation are in fact of this simple type of natural substances and mixtures, carried out in simpler apparatuses, like boiling copper or iron cauldrons provided with lids and "ridges" that would catch the distillates.) From here on it was only a matter of time until some ancient empiricists would stumble upon the right combination of substances that can generate the secret solvent and the Stone.

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 12:35 AM
I want a high yeild of these white crystals Smernoff because it is the main ingredient of 'the secret solvent' (thats a much better name than SM, im going to stick with that from now on)

Volatized salts have the ingress required to penetrate things and deliver their signature and effect right to the center of whatever it is its penetrating. Methamphetamine is a well known example.

Red earth (as well as many other things aka slaked lime) are magnets for the collecting of the liquid life-force. The white crystals are the pure embodiment of the spirit in its 'light' body. Continued channeling of the magnetic flux which holds the key to accelerating the process "The air carries it in her wings" which come from magnetic north and can be directed into a more condensed space using the phi ratio pyramid, will 'charge' these crystals with more and more of this energy until it begins to 'glow' go red, or whatever, no point in being too accurate in my descriptions since its all speculation right now.

Scmuldvich; why a healthy male in spring? Why not a female?

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 01:18 AM
BTW thank you JDP for that very well put clarification of the difficulties.

I can see now why Divine Providence is so important, obviously a lot of you guys are struggling to find, and/or conprehend the correct materials and their mechanisms.

I really only learnt these things through my Lord. Without His guidance i would be utterly ignorant.

Thats if im correct of course (which im pretty sure I am) and what better way to find out than to give it a go.

The RedLion success thread was very interesting. I dont believe this man made THE stone, nevertheless he did seem to have made A stone that successfully transmuted. I am going to aim to make "The White Stone" which is a more juvenile process and should theoretically be easier and shorter. I mean why go for the red when the white is so much closer at hand? And who cares if its silver or gold when you can go and buy a few car batterties and turn them into ten grand no worries lol

Dragon's Tail
11-23-2017, 01:53 AM
Nobody knows. In my opinion it was very likely an accidental discovery, like a lot of other discoveries in the history of mankind. When the appropriate ancient technologies had evolved enough for people to have access to ceramic and glass flasks/bottles, distillation of things other than simple natural substances/mixtures, like common sea water or metallic mercury, for example, was possible (the first notices we have of distillation are in fact of this simple type of natural substances and mixtures, carried out in simpler apparatuses, like boiling copper or iron cauldrons provided with lids and "ridges" that would catch the distillates.) From here on it was only a matter of time until some ancient empiricists would stumble upon the right combination of substances that can generate the secret solvent and the Stone.

Interesting thought about the cauldrons. I'm not so sure that "glass" was required per se, but the origins of a lot of things are cloudy. However, glaze is much easier than glass, and still provides that security of the material inside of a pot not to be contaminated. It makes sense that any society accustomed to anything beyond pit firing would have this technology, and pit firing can actually produce glaze by itself as well as providing the necessary visual cues to where it comes from. Once pit-fired pottery starts, glaze is only a few curious experiments away, and from there it's easier to learn hotter fire techniques as well (i.e. over ground kilns and furnaces, etc). I'm sure early brick makers discovered glaze quite easily. From fired clay to kilns and crucibles would have been a rapid avancing, in my humble opinion, not unlike the rapid advancement in rockets or CPUs, or industrial process. Once the crucial ingredient is discovered, it goes quick, but I'm not sure about glass blowing, as that isn't a direct spin-off. Isolating glass requires a few more key pieces of knowledge, though places with high silica content in the clay could have happened upon it through the above mentioned process.

Distillation isn't hard to figure out. If you watch water boil, then you can put 2 and 2 together and start contriving ways to "capture" the steam.

Acids on the other hand.. That's a little more tricky.

I think we've discussed metal smelting before so I won't reiterate that.

For someone to "stumble upon" the secret solvent, perhaps we can gain insight by thinking forward, one discovery at a time, and trying things that the ancients would have tried, that relate also to our other studies and knowledge.

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 03:00 AM
JDP, I would really like to get your opinion on "The hand of the Philosophers".

What are these decknames representative of?

Kiorionis
11-23-2017, 01:01 PM
Prima materia, natural seperation, physical seperation, putrifaction, sublimation, a little more heat, coagulation, sublimation

Are you sure it's not: Sublimation, coagulation, heat, sublimation, putrefaction, physical separation, natural separation, Prima Materia?


Lol

JDP
11-23-2017, 01:48 PM
BTW thank you JDP for that very well put clarification of the difficulties.

I can see now why Divine Providence is so important, obviously a lot of you guys are struggling to find, and/or conprehend the correct materials and their mechanisms.


That's all fine and dandy, but what if... "He" is really not "out there" to give you this so convenient & expected "guidance" to success? Or supposing that "He" really is, what makes you think that "He" doesn't have more important things to attend to, with the universe being INFINITE and all, than just wait around for you to ask "Him" to let you know how to prepare this thing? Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of anyone to expect "Him" to be constantly pampering and granting their wishes and desires? Like if "He" was their babysitter! Maybe, just maybe, "He" gave you a brain and a pair of working hands FOR YOU TO FIGURE THINGS OUT ON YOUR OWN and leave "Him" alone to do "His thing" elsewhere? So either way, what if it's you and only you who can acquire the necessary knowledge to succeed in this matter? My best advice: just assume that "He" is not out there, or doesn't care, or is too busy to pay attention to what you wish for, and start counting on your own wits and work to figure these things out. Don't worry, if "He" really exists, "He" won't be sending you to a fiery pit of eternal fire & brimstone just because you used the brains and hands "He" gave you in the first place so that you could figure things out on your own.

Kibric
11-23-2017, 02:05 PM
thats a pretty funny rant, reminds me of David Mitchell rants.
A big hug for JDP

JDP
11-23-2017, 02:28 PM
Interesting thought about the cauldrons. I'm not so sure that "glass" was required per se, but the origins of a lot of things are cloudy. However, glaze is much easier than glass, and still provides that security of the material inside of a pot not to be contaminated. It makes sense that any society accustomed to anything beyond pit firing would have this technology, and pit firing can actually produce glaze by itself as well as providing the necessary visual cues to where it comes from. Once pit-fired pottery starts, glaze is only a few curious experiments away, and from there it's easier to learn hotter fire techniques as well (i.e. over ground kilns and furnaces, etc). I'm sure early brick makers discovered glaze quite easily. From fired clay to kilns and crucibles would have been a rapid avancing, in my humble opinion, not unlike the rapid advancement in rockets or CPUs, or industrial process. Once the crucial ingredient is discovered, it goes quick, but I'm not sure about glass blowing, as that isn't a direct spin-off. Isolating glass requires a few more key pieces of knowledge, though places with high silica content in the clay could have happened upon it through the above mentioned process.

Distillation isn't hard to figure out. If you watch water boil, then you can put 2 and 2 together and start contriving ways to "capture" the steam.

Acids on the other hand.. That's a little more tricky.

I think we've discussed metal smelting before so I won't reiterate that.

For someone to "stumble upon" the secret solvent, perhaps we can gain insight by thinking forward, one discovery at a time, and trying things that the ancients would have tried, that relate also to our other studies and knowledge.

Ceramics are fine for working on more reactive matters, but glass was very useful because it also allowed the operator to actually see what was going on inside the vessels where these reactions were being carried out.

The first true distillation vessels were basically simple metal cauldrons provided with lids, which served as "condensers", that had "ridges" or "channels", which would serve as "receivers" for the condensing vapors on the lid (third drawing on the top row):

https://reader.paperc.com/book_static/107/2015/10/08/9781782625582/OEBPS/images/BK9781849731508-00001-f2.jpg

Around Alexandrian times, an unknown "someone" had the brilliant idea of actually leading the vapors via an attached tube on the lid to an area outside the boiling cauldron itself (first picture on the second row), and thus vastly improved the condensation of the vapors and the yield of distillate. From here on it was only a step to the birth of ceramic and glass alembics/retorts/distillation-flasks, the most important technological development in the history of alchemy:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/greek1.jpg

http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/science/chemistry/apparatus/graphics/alembic2.gif

Dragon's Tail
11-23-2017, 05:56 PM
Thanks for those wonderful illustrations, JDP. In my reading I was led to believe that distillation vessels didn't come from a single source but many. Now that I'm digging around, however, I can't find any inscriptions from older kingdoms. It does seem like something that could have been independently developed by different cultures at different times. But perhaps there is a unifying thread. I assume from the scratches that these images are Greek?
You mentioned Alexandrian culture. The Chinese were known to distill alcohols from 800 BC according to this:
https://www.copper-alembic.com/en/page/history-of-alcohol-distillation

They mention the art tracing back as far as 2000BC, but from the writing I surmise that this is speculation. Perhaps the Chinese advanced the art, and their developments rectified technique in the west after Alexander's campaigns. Still I wonder where the first stone and secret solvent originated. We're pretty sure it had been made by the 8th century, but if it was concocted much earlier, that might tell us something very important about the ingredients and process used.

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 08:35 PM
That's all fine and dandy, but what if... "He" is really not "out there" to give you this so convenient & expected "guidance" to success? Or supposing that "He" really is, what makes you think that "He" doesn't have more important things to attend to, with the universe being INFINITE and all, than just wait around for you to ask "Him" to let you know how to prepare this thing? Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of anyone to expect "Him" to be constantly pampering and granting their wishes and desires? Like if "He" was their babysitter! Maybe, just maybe, "He" gave you a brain and a pair of working hands FOR YOU TO FIGURE THINGS OUT ON YOUR OWN and leave "Him" alone to do "His thing" elsewhere? So either way, what if it's you and only you who can acquire the necessary knowledge to succeed in this matter? My best advice: just assume that "He" is not out there, or doesn't care, or is too busy to pay attention to what you wish for, and start counting on your own wits and work to figure these things out. Don't worry, if "He" really exists, "He" won't be sending you to a fiery pit of eternal fire & brimstone just because you used the brains and hands "He" gave you in the first place so that you could figure things out on your own.

This could all very well be true; but cause im always visiting Him in prayer; he enjoys watching me beg and grovel, and then get up and try and do something about my situation myself. Its definitly a two way street.

Anywho; I did recieve guidance yesterday on exactly how to make the stone super-speed.

I would even go as far as to day that the Ars Brevis is possible in the 1 day, at least for the white stone.

Reason being.... there is an atmospheric effect that accelerates our work. If you can control this atmospheric effect then you control at what speed the procedure is done.

JDP; many times you've said "This spiritual energy BS is all hype with no basis in reality and no empirical evidence whatsoever ect..."

Today is the day where I prove you wrong :cool:

I'll ask that you please refer to "The Orgone Accumulator Handbook" there is a free pdf on google. There are actual proven methods of charging special vaccume tubes with this energy so that they glow blue. The man who developed this stuff was the victim of a serious witchhunt; in which they couldnt find anything on him so threw him in jail for contempt of court where he died in jail, more ceazy than that; when this was occuring in 1957 (?)ish the courts for the first time in US history ordered all his bookes to be BURNED! Which is also the reason that this knowledge is not yet considered "empirical" because unfortunately the scientific community can't be fucked re-writing all scientific disciplines all over again in 'light' of this new information.

Its the real deal JDP, check it out!!

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 08:46 PM
And yes. I believe I have totally worked this shit out (with the help of both God and the brain He gave me) almost completely.

Im not sure that I'm going to pull a LeoRed on this one because who knows if hes already been assainated or not lol. However, i will make some arrangment to prove my success which is now an inevitability.

Thank you to Andro for the insight to see through hermetic eyes.
Thankyou to Zoas for giving me the single most generous gift I've ever recieved.
Thankyou to Kiorionis, Mr Black and all you others for your support and encouragment.
Thank you JDP for the historical viewpoint in which to understand the Sages.
Thank you Schmuldvich for always questioning me and making me think a little deeper.
Also to all my Spagyric friends here who keep me coming back and messing around on here.
And of course Awani for whatever Herculean effort it was to get this place going.
Others, Seth-Ra, GL, z Ok, there are too many to name. I'm very greatful for you have all been my acceleration in the science and so I suppose I best reward you all by SPEEDING up your efforts. (Schmulvich will benefit most im sure)

Here tis: http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/01/the-rodin-coil-is-it-the-greatest-discovery-of-all-time/

Happy Stone making. Who can be fucked waiting a year?? Not me im affraid.

JDP
11-23-2017, 09:22 PM
Thanks for those wonderful illustrations, JDP. In my reading I was led to believe that distillation vessels didn't come from a single source but many. Now that I'm digging around, however, I can't find any inscriptions from older kingdoms. It does seem like something that could have been independently developed by different cultures at different times. But perhaps there is a unifying thread. I assume from the scratches that these images are Greek?
You mentioned Alexandrian culture. The Chinese were known to distill alcohols from 800 BC according to this:
https://www.copper-alembic.com/en/page/history-of-alcohol-distillation

They mention the art tracing back as far as 2000BC, but from the writing I surmise that this is speculation. Perhaps the Chinese advanced the art, and their developments rectified technique in the west after Alexander's campaigns. Still I wonder where the first stone and secret solvent originated. We're pretty sure it had been made by the 8th century, but if it was concocted much earlier, that might tell us something very important about the ingredients and process used.

Yes, those drawings with the Greek writing come from a Byzantine codex, they are one of the oldest surviving drawings we have of alembics.

Yes, it is very likely that similar technological developments regarding distillation were going on in China, independently of the Middle Eastern and the Mediterranean areas.

The oldest surviving mention of "alchemy" discovered so far happens in fact among the Chinese (an edict from 144 BC.)

JDP
11-23-2017, 09:42 PM
This could all very well be true; but cause im always visiting Him in prayer; he enjoys watching me beg and grovel, and then get up and try and do something about my situation myself. Its definitly a two way street.

Change "the dead" for "God" and "they answer" for "He answers" in this clever quote by James Randi:

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d6/d60e242170921c80cf954a8b19729452d792f7692c74154196 7cc21b3c711948.jpg



JDP; many times you've said "This spiritual energy BS is all hype with no basis in reality and no empirical evidence whatsoever ect..."

Today is the day where I prove you wrong :cool:

I'll ask that you please refer to "The Orgone Accumulator Handbook" there is a free pdf on google. There are actual proven methods of charging special vaccume tubes with this energy so that they glow blue. The man who developed this stuff was the victim of a serious witchhunt; in which they couldnt find anything on him so threw him in jail for contempt of court where he died in jail, more ceazy than that; when this was occuring in 1957 (?)ish the courts for the first time in US history ordered all his bookes to be BURNED! Which is also the reason that this knowledge is not yet considered "empirical" because unfortunately the scientific community can't be fucked re-writing all scientific disciplines all over again in 'light' of this new information.

Its the real deal JDP, check it out!!

Don't believe everything you read out there in the vast expanses of the Internet, elixirmixer. There is A TON of uncorroborated baloney floating around. The proof is in the pudding. Remember, "Money Talks, BS Walks!", like AC/DC (your land's most famous rock band ever) immortalized in a song:

https://musicpleer.audio/#!8941571e9b30f4eb8c6b78b4fcff511d

elixirmixer
11-23-2017, 10:36 PM
There are some views of thought on the RedLions success thread as to the way someone shares Knowledge of the Stone if one becomes successful; however it was quickly drowned out by a bit of excitement ect...

How does someone actually reveal their work properly?
Or is it more of a "dont tell anyone" type situation?

Also; i saw somewhere people asking for a copy of the photos of Leo's Stone. Does anyone have those? I'd love to see.

Proof is always in the lab JDP; absolutly agree. First thing im going to do is build a rodin coil (i happen to already have everything I need almost) and then im going to ferment some body fluids, some controls and one possitioned in the middle of the coil. If my predictuons are correct; the rodin coil will greatly speed up the process of sublimation and also hopefully the maturity also. I really want to build a big oyramid on my front lawn that would allow me to work inside; aka have thr laborstory setup for the stone inside the pyramid.

The reason im using pyramids and rodin coils is because they manipulate and generate this un-empirically realised ether and in turn, might possibly, increase the speed of laboratory practice.

An artificial spring or full moon so to speak.

Either that or im way off. Only time will tell.

Warmheart
11-23-2017, 10:54 PM
The reason im using pyramids and rodin coils is because they manipulate and generate this un-empirically realised ether and in turn, might possibly, increase the speed of laboratory practice.
Can you find any mention of something at least slightly resembling pyramids and rodin coils in Alchemical texts?

I think that might be the answer if you are on right way or you are way off.

elixirmixer
11-24-2017, 06:52 AM
Im not the greatest at doing the quotes but heres an effort for you:
Supplement to the Foregoing Aphorisms

If the globes containing the subjects be three, four or more times electrified in the beginning, before you put them in the bath; so as to introduce the Electrical Universal principle, or the Universal Spirit of Nature into the subject by motion, the same spirit in the subject will be greatly strengthened, the operation will be accelerated and improved, and you will obtain an increase of the first White salt or sublimate below the Oak stoppers.

So there! :p

Edit: And yes im aware of the concept of electric fluid in magical works also; I just have a sense that both rodin coils and pyramids act similar to this energy by accumulation of the Earths Vital Force.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Im also tossing up the idea of what it means to have a rodin coil pumping magnetism on one side of the apparatus and then having the opposite, a Faraday cage on the other and seeing what effect this has on SM collections (probably a really good one, since this is right up there with beautiful hermetic theory. Magnatism vs A lack there-of... electrical distillation??

elixirmixer
11-24-2017, 07:23 AM
What is the shape of time? The answer is, two inverted cones that join at their tips, according to Hawkins and plenty others anyway. What is the opposite shape of the hourglass?

The torsion, or doughnut.

Hermetics is all about understanding the duality, so that you can comprehend the unity.

elixirmixer
11-24-2017, 11:33 PM
Can someone please do me a favour and post the first picture for Cabala Mineralis here please as My phone doesnt allow me to upload pictures and my comp is out of action.

Please; i think it will help my recent ramblings make more sense. Im looking for the picture with a man with an hourglass above his head.

Thank you kind soul; whoever you chose to be.

Schmuldvich
11-24-2017, 11:52 PM
Can someone please do me a favour and post the first picture for Cabala Mineralis here please as My phone doesnt allow me to upload pictures and my comp is out of action.

Please; i think it will help my recent ramblings make more sense. Im looking for the picture with a man with an hourglass above his head.

Thank you kind soul; whoever you chose to be.


https://i.imgur.com/NZGOhHR.png

JDP
11-25-2017, 12:07 AM
Can someone please do me a favour and post the first picture for Cabala Mineralis here please as My phone doesnt allow me to upload pictures and my comp is out of action.

Please; i think it will help my recent ramblings make more sense. Im looking for the picture with a man with an hourglass above his head.

Thank you kind soul; whoever you chose to be.

Besides the version that Schmuldvich just posted above, there is actually a second surviving manuscript copy of this text. It seems extremely difficult to find any pictures from it on the Internet, though. Here is an unfortunately too small, and also black & white (are the drawings in this other surviving manuscript in color or black & white??? Unfortunately there is very little information regarding this other manuscript copy) picture of the first page from that other surviving manuscript of the same text:

http://mikeplato.myblog.it/wp-content/uploads/sites/301547/2009/12/cabala12.jpg

Kibric
11-25-2017, 12:30 AM
RedLions success thread
???

Kiorionis
11-25-2017, 12:37 AM
???

Success (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1133-Success&highlight=Success) by LeoRetilus

Lol, but every time I try to translate 'Retilus' on google, it comes up as 'hello!'

So maybe his username is Hello Lion!

Kibric
11-25-2017, 12:53 AM
Thanks:D

Kibric
11-25-2017, 01:53 AM
I really want to build a big oyramid on my front lawn that would allow me to work inside
http://images.lacarmina.com/141207-metairie-cemetery-new-orleans-sphinx-pyramid-tomb-20.jpg
that would be nifty

have you read Dennis Kloeck work on stone antenna ?
it might be your cup of tea

elixirmixer
11-25-2017, 01:58 AM
Cheers Kibric. Yes sounds good.

Notice how Mercury is here depicted as the hourglass over someones head.

Mercury is described as "being everywhere; permeating all things... blah blah..." Wouldnt TIME match those descriptions?

I believe something important happens with the interplay of the magnetic fields created both in pyramids and the rodin coil, wherein this hourglass shaped force is.. well literally FORCED through this tiny singularity, I also believe that one of the most highest yeild places for Our Mercury, is in this hourglass so to speak. I know I havent explained the idea very well but those who are suppose to understand will im sure.

Kibric
11-25-2017, 02:22 AM
Mercury is described as "being everywhere; permeating all things... blah blah..." Wouldnt TIME match those descriptions?
its a good thought


I believe something important happens with the interplay of the magnetic fields created both in pyramids and the rodin coil
i'd never heard of a rodin coil till you mentioned it
i look forward to what you may discover in your work

here's the link if anyone couldn't find it
Stone Antennae: Analogs of electrostatic capacitance antennae
https://dennisklocek.com/stone-antennae-analogs-electrostatic-capacitance-antennae/

Kiorionis
11-25-2017, 03:02 AM
Mercury is described as "being everywhere; permeating all things... blah blah..." Wouldnt TIME match those descriptions?

In the physical, probably. But there are some spheres/planes/dimensions which are said to be timeless.

black
11-25-2017, 03:05 AM
Hey Mr. Mixer

Does this ring a bell ?

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag282/blackbecomeswhite/d525982c-03d9-464d-a173-eb14996d07fa_zpsvwrchpgq.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/blackbecomeswhite/media/d525982c-03d9-464d-a173-eb14996d07fa_zpsvwrchpgq.jpg.html)

Schmuldvich
11-25-2017, 05:40 AM
They have written so many vague, obscure and misleading things, specially the absurd "one matter only" transparent trap that so many in past centuries have fallen for over and over, and, incredibly enough, some still do in this day and age. Fortunately, some alchemists (like Zosimos, for example, who keeps kindly warning the reader about this over and over in some of his treatises) have been generous enough to clear up this death-trap and clarify for the seeker that this "one matter only" is actually put together out of several chosen matters by the alchemist himself (this composite is not found already naturally made for your convenience anywhere on this planet, rest assured of that; it has to be made on purpose by the intelligent intervention of man.

We read the same words with different eyes, JDP.

Tell me this, in your eyes is mud (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1310-One-Matter-One-Vessel-One-Fire/page20) a composition? What about blood (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5330-possible-subject-of-the-art-touchstone/page14)?

Can either of these things be seen as One Matter even though they are composed of different elements?

Do we call Adam (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5393-Easy-to-Read-amp-Comprehend-Alchemical-Tracts&p=52185#post52185) "liver+spleen+brain+flesh"? Do we call an egg "yolk+albumen+shell"? Do we call cake "flour+sugar+water"? Do we call mud "dirt+water"? No, we don't!

Can nature make a cake for us? Absolutely not; this is a work of human hands!

Does Nature make mud for us? I would say YES! While Mud can be made by human hands, Mud, the way I see it, is a natural Matter provided to us by Nature being a composition of many different things--not only dirt+water--but also bacteria, silica, sulfur, humus, etc.

So when I read such Masters as Zosimos when they say things like








"The Book Of The Keys Of The Work" by Zosimos

Are you aware that this one composition contains the dyer and the dyed, the fugitive and the seeker, the friend and the enemy, the male and the female, the fecundater and the fecundated, the changer and the changed, because the thing which you saw is, in fact, one thing.

and







"The Book Of The Keys Of The Work" by Zosimos

Know that I could not possibly name with one name what the sages gathered together. Therefore I named it with separate names and I swear by God, the creator of creatures and souls, that jealousy is not what led me to this manifoldness. Thus I only gather in one name what the sages robbed of their true meaning and divided up[. I could not reveal it and name it with its known name, and I did not find a different way; I simply had to do it. But, to the best of my understanding, I will clarify for you what the sages kept secret.

At the beginning of his treatise the sages said: “Take the mercury and solidify it in the body of magnesia.” Thus, after this statement, should I immediately mention to you pyrite, which is the 'marqasisa', in spite of the fact that one of the names would be enough, because with it, the works is complete the in the same way as with the magnesia?

This is similar to when a human being suffers in some of his joints, then the pains spreads all over his body, yet he says that he does not suffer generally, but says, “I have pain in my hand or my leg.” And the sages said, when they mention one of the components of the mixtures, that they already named with it all the components of the mixture. This is because they became one mixture and various mixtures. Thus when the sage mentioned something by name, he named all the components of the mixture with that name. And so I named them with their names, and also when they were mixed, I named it lead, copper, mercury, lime, and other similar names. Thus when they were changed by being operated on, those mixtures were named flowers of gold – whose appearance is the best aspect of gold – impure water, which is the name given to the the visible secret, and with all the names you know from reading their books. When reading these names, we wonder who will understand that these names are just one thing.

and







"The Book Of The Keys Of The Work" by Zosimos

And he also said: “Put into the composition some incombustible sulphur in order that it may take the soul of the secret into its inside.” And he also said: “The first one is a dyer and the second one is a fugitive. Thus when it is mixed with it, the dyer teachers the fugitive how to fight the fire.” By all these testimonies, the sage confirmed this by telling us that this is not composed from various components of the mixtures. Therefore, when you read any of the books by the sages, and find that they give one name, then do not think that it is one. And if they gave two or three names, then you must know that there are even more than that. It is the same as with the origin of arithmetic that is based on the number one, and then extends to many numbers. Our work is just like that: it is named one, although it has in it various components of the mixtures. Thus know that the one is the origin of the numbers.


I can only understand our Matter to have multiple components, like sea-water (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4902-The-Emerald-Tablet-What-Does-It-Mean) being many different elements assembled by Nature, which can be collected as a single Matter, and then prepared by the Artist according to his intellect before allowing it to Naturally evolve in our Microcosm/egg. Think mud --> Clay (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3709-R%E9cr%E9ations-Herm%E9tiques-in-English&p=51370#post51370). The above quotes (and plenty more) show, in my eyes, that Zosimos was on the same page.


We need to remember that the Sages did not write literally and purposely obscured their words








"The Book Of The Keys Of The Work" by Zosimos

In my presence, they quarreled about a certain statement. One of them said: “Is there a nature that knows your nature perfectly well? If you knew it really well and what improves it, making it become good, then you would deserve to know the names which the sages derived for it, and among them are the true names.” When I heard this statement and the description of what appeared on the bodies, and how many names are similar to the true names, and into how many errors they let people fall, behold, an angel of the angels came to me and said: “All the sages are right about that and about what they wrote in their books, because some of them named the magnesia by its name, while another one wrote a book naming it 'claudianus', and another one named it 'androdamus', another one named it 'chrysocolla', and another one believed all the sages among us, and whenever he spoke, he chose names from the names of different operations although the thing is one and the path is one. But they disagreed about the names and each one of them gave names, thus disagreeing with their companions. That made people more confused and thus they wrote about the operations, colors, and weights in order to confuse later generations with regard to their behavior and the validity of their science and whether there was any truth in this matter.” … “They wrote and they said nothing but the truth. They gave names that resembled the gates of the truth, which are necessary. Among them there were some who named them with their colors, others who named them by their actions, some who named them with their true names, some of named them by their taste and their nature, and omitted other things. And know that there is not anyone among the sages who did not do his best to understand the One, and he gave a name to the truth. But because of their strong intention not to allow this matter to appear to the ignorant, they introduced many things with the result that what should be, was mixed with what should not be. Therefore their books became a joke in the hands of the ignorant, and made them laugh, so that they were controlled by those who have a distorted understanding, boredom, blindness, and ignorance with regard to the truth.” … “You wrote about these names in a veiled manner, creating confusion and creating doubt in those who read them after you. Consequently you made them fall into error, yet you should not do that; your intention was sincere in what you clarified as a most complete reading of the books of the sages about the dyeing and the solidification of the mercury. And that should be dyed and solidified with its similar and equal. But you wrote about them as spirits and you did not name them with their names. Thus if the feeble-minded human who has no intelligence reads about them, he would take weak spirits which have neither patience nor strength against the fire. Thus when he operates on them, the fire will consume them, and they will become useless. Thus the one who operated on them in the way you ordered him, would throw them away because they do not dye anything. Therefore you made him even more blind than he was before. Did you not follow the advice of the sage when she said: “Turn the bodies into non-bodies” and you understood the statement: “The composed copper is in the rank of the human being, having body, soul, and spirit.”? Thus you deserve to know that the bodies do not become non-bodies, and the copper does not have soul, spirit, and body except with what clings to it and is suitable to it coming from the natures. That is because before it gets composed it was dead, thick, having neither soul nor spirit. Then for those who come after you, you wrote about vanishing sulphurs coming from arsenic and 'sandarach' and what is similar to them. Thus you know that the fire consumes and burns all of them, and therefore they are useless.” … “Therefore I told you that the composed water only gets completed with what is similar to it from the components of the mixture. And if these dyeing spirits escape because of the intensity of the heat of the fire at the time of the burning of the bodies, then I order you to return to those bodies these dyeing spirits that escaped form them. God willing, this is a matter that creates them, improves them, and restore them to what you wanted. Thus know this.”

JDP
11-25-2017, 06:29 PM
We read the same words with different eyes, JDP.

Tell me this, in your eyes is mud (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1310-One-Matter-One-Vessel-One-Fire/page20) a composition? What about blood (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5330-possible-subject-of-the-art-touchstone/page14)?

Can either of these things be seen as One Matter even though they are composed of different elements?

Do we call Adam (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5393-Easy-to-Read-amp-Comprehend-Alchemical-Tracts&p=52185#post52185) "liver+spleen+brain+flesh"? Do we call an egg "yolk+albumen+shell"? Do we call cake "flour+sugar+water"? Do we call mud "dirt+water"? No, we don't!

Can nature make a cake for us? Absolutely not; this is a work of human hands!

Does Nature make mud for us? I would say YES! While Mud can be made by human hands, Mud, the way I see it, is a natural Matter provided to us by Nature being a composition of many different things--not only dirt+water--but also bacteria, silica, sulfur, humus, etc.

You are here projecting modern knowledge on people who did not have it. Those old folks knew nothing about things like "silicates" or "bacteria", for example. Sea water is very easy to analyze and see that it is a mixture of two things (fresh water and common salt), but "mud" not so much. It is a more complex mixture. The most people in past centuries could deduce from heating it in a distillation vessel is that it contained water and "earth", but that's about it. Today we know that "mud" can be made up of a bunch of different clays/minerals.


So when I read such Masters as Zosimos when they say things like







and






and







I can only understand our Matter to have multiple components, like sea-water (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4902-The-Emerald-Tablet-What-Does-It-Mean) being many different elements assembled by Nature, which can be collected as a single Matter, and then prepared by the Artist according to his intellect before allowing it to Naturally evolve in our Microcosm/egg. Think mud --> Clay (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3709-R%E9cr%E9ations-Herm%E9tiques-in-English&p=51370#post51370). The above quotes (and plenty more) show, in my eyes, that Zosimos was on the same page.


We need to remember that the Sages did not write literally and purposely obscured their words







Apparently you totally missed such revealing quotes as these, from the same work by the same master:

"And you, O my Lady, if you think that the MIXING of the magnesia has to take place in two bodies, you would be wrong. However, I say that the MIXING has to be in THREE BODIES, and the operations of THESE BODIES should be IN THE RIGHT WEIGHT..."

"With regard to the magnesia, IT IS THREE BODIES about which I told you that the mercury is solidified IN THEM."

"I already told you about its making solid, its making white, its burning, its breaking into fragments, its pounding and its making red. It is the sulphur, which entered into the water AT THE BEGINNING OF THE COMPOSITION."

"But I rather say and explain to you that the sulphur CANNOT BE FROM THE SULPHUR ALONE. But the sage names ALL THE THINGS AS HE MIXES THEM - AND THEY TURN INTO ONE THING - SULPHUR, and that thing which he named sulphur TURNED INTO VARIOUS THINGS." (notice the order: from several things HE (i.e. THE OPERATOR) makes "one thing" FIRST, and not, as you wish it was, from "one thing" first then you get several... sorry, but the old master could not be any clearer!)

"With regard to this, the sage Agathodaimon said: "The salting with the gum is what quickly burns THE COMPONENTS OF THE MIXTURES... it (the gum) is fixed by THE COMPONENTS OF THE MIXTURE. And it looks as if its sharpness, its hardness and its persistence is based on its (the gum's) desire FOR THE COMPONENTS OF THE MIXTURE..."

"And it is what the sages meant in the interpretation: "Pound THE COMPOSITION on the fire and mix the water with it until the dye rises up from EVERY THING."

"Therefore Maria said: "If you pound THE THINGS fine by the fire until they rise up as vapour and become mature, they would complete what you are looking for."

"Know that when THE THINGS ARE MIXED, they named ALL OF THEM WITH ONE NAME, either copper, silver, magnesia, or mercury; and know that what they named copper has within it THE COPPERS AND COMBINED BODIES."

"Therefore, when you read ANY OF THE BOOKS BY THE SAGES, and find that THEY GAVE ONE NAME, THEN DO NOT THINK THAT IT IS ONE. And if they gave TWO OR THREE NAMES, then you must know THAT THERE ARE EVEN MORE THAN THAT. It is the same as with the origin of arithmetic that is based on the number one, and then extends to many numbers. Our work is just like that: IT IS NAMED ONE, ALTHOUGH IT HAS IN IT VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF THE MIXTURES."

"I already told you that this nature, which the sages named nature, is (based on) VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF THE MIXTURES. BUT WHEN THEY ARE MIXED THEY MARRY EACH OTHER, THUS BECOMING ONE THING which they named nature."

"After this, I should perhaps tell you about THE ONE NATURE THAT IS COMPOSED FROM VARIOUS NATURES AND THAT IS NAMED ONE THING."

"From statements such as these, you should know that THIS ONE TO WHICH THEY GAVE ONE NAME COMES FROM VARIOUS THINGS. Then afterwards, sharpen your understanding IN THE MIXING OF THESE THINGS TILL THEY MARRY, MIX AND HOLD EACH OTHER."

I could continue to quote the loads of passages like this throughout Zosimos' works, but these are more than enough. Be thankful that, unlike many other alchemists, he was generous enough to disarm the naive "one matter only" trap for countless of his readers. It's amazing that even as far back as Zosimos' times this MALICIOUS "one matter only" trap that was promoted by some ENVIOUS alchemists was already causing enough damage among countless seekers that it prompted him to have to keep on addressing and clarifying it over and over again. The Stone is made from the interaction of SEVERAL MATTERS, not from "only one". This "one thing" IS MADE FROM VARIOUS MATTERS. This is what the whole "trap" consists of, there is nothing else to it. This type of MISCHIEVOUS alchemists are trying to mislead you by telling you a half-truth, or a half-lie, depending on how you want to look at it. Anyone thinking otherwise is simply doomed to keep on failing to find this "one matter" somewhere "out there", because nature simply WILL NOT MAKE IT FOR YOU. It is YOU, the operator, who has to make it by choosing the right matters, mixing them in the right proportions, and submitting them to the right conditions & treatments.

Warmheart
11-25-2017, 08:11 PM
You are here projecting modern knowledge on people who did not have it. Those old folks knew nothing about things like "silicates" or "bacteria", for example. Sea water is very easy to analyze and see that it is a mixture of two things (fresh water and common salt), but "mud" not so much. It is a more complex mixture. The most people in past centuries could deduce from heating it in a distillation vessel is that it contained water and "earth", but that's about it. Today we know that "mud" can be made up of a bunch of different clays/minerals.
As having dealt with sea salt, I must say that it is entirely different from common salt, and if you start applying vulgar fire to it to distill the sea water or smth like that, you have high chances of actually killing sea salt.

Only Mercurius can't be killed, because it is immortal.

As my research have shown to me, ancients knew about matter thousands times more than modern science, modern science seems to be false all around and based on totally false principles. Alchemical texts should be approached with clean non-prejudiced mind.

Kibric
11-25-2017, 08:35 PM
i suspect you have had this conversation more than once
one matter, a mixture, 3 different humours etc
until someone who is successful making the stone comes forward and clarifies
no one can really tell
we all have our own approach

JDP
11-25-2017, 10:15 PM
i suspect you have had this conversation more than once
one matter, a mixture, 3 different humours etc
until someone who is successful making the stone comes forward and clarifies
no one can really tell
we all have our own approach

For the moment being, until some of us one day finally empirically finish "the job" and succeed in preparing it, we have to go by two things:

1- What the reputed "masters" of this "art" say (like the quotations above from one of Zosimos' treatise)

2- What our own experience and common sense tell us

So far I don't see how number 2 contradicts number 1. If the Stone exists, as these old masters keep assuring us, it is extremely unlikely that it can actually be prepared with only "one matter", literally. The whole thing looks like a very blatant trap to misguide inexperienced people and send them into a blind alley.

JDP
11-25-2017, 10:20 PM
As having dealt with sea salt, I must say that it is entirely different from common salt, and if you start applying vulgar fire to it to distill the sea water or smth like that, you have high chances of actually killing sea salt.

Only Mercurius can't be killed, because it is immortal.

As my research have shown to me, ancients knew about matter thousands times more than modern science, modern science seems to be false all around and based on totally false principles. Alchemical texts should be approached with clean non-prejudiced mind.

The difference is because modern common salt, whether it comes from the sea or from underground mines, has been refined and purified. If you don't purify it then it contains small amounts of other salts, like magnesium and/or potassium chlorides, mixed up with it. But these differences are more notable for human consumption. For experiments it does not make such a huge difference.

Warmheart
11-25-2017, 10:29 PM
The difference is because modern common salt, whether it comes from the sea or from underground mines, has been refined and purified. If you don't purify it then it contains small amounts of other salts, like magnesium and/or potassium chlorides, mixed up with it. But these differences are more notable for human consumption. For experiments it does not make such a huge difference.
When you take flower, burn it to ashes and purify those ashes by various different means, in the end you will get ashes, remnants of once living flower.

Or, as in Schmuldvich example with bread, you can burn it, you won't find flour, sugar, etc., you will find some carbon ashes, which don't make the bread, which are inedible, but which are chemically "pure". You can no longer make anything remotely good from those ashes.

Same goes for most of mineral substances. Chemical processes kill them. Chemists deal mostly with corpses. It is like necromancy, but applied to minerals. Alchemy is totally different, it deals with something, which is totally ignored by science altogether. It deals with Life and processes of Life. Modern science still cannot give definition of life, and so takes it out of equation in its experiments, torturing poor metals and minerals.

...That's how I see it :)

Andro
11-25-2017, 10:38 PM
What is (any) matter made of?

What differentiates one matter from another?

And what is "matter", anyway?

Warmheart
11-25-2017, 10:54 PM
What is (any) matter made of?

What differentiates one matter from another?

And what is "matter", anyway?
Oh, Andro, what an important question.

Trying to put it in less or more exoteric/concealed words, I'd say that all matter consists of one and same substance, which is Divine Love! :D Some things have more Love, some less...

Kibric
11-25-2017, 11:32 PM
If the Stone exists, as these old masters keep assuring us, it is extremely unlikely that it can actually be prepared with only "one matter", literally. The whole thing looks like a very blatant trap to misguide inexperienced people and send them into a blind alley.

the trap

It-is also called a round cloud, death, blackness, darkness, shadow, ashy lead, or a metallic and subtle ore; or it is described, after that which is obtained from it, as gold that was hidden in the body of Magnesia. Hence it is said: "Extract the shadow thereof from the splendour." This also is the substance of which so many have spoken. Three things constitute the true ore, viz., body, soul, and spirit. Hence it is compared to an egg, because in an egg, too, the chicken is developed out of three things. Thus also Alchemy is produced out of the above-mentioned three things, as many philosophers do testify in "The Crowd." The male principle, or the water, is also called the "nature"; for water is a natural agent which dissolves the elements of bodies, and then again unites them. Concerning this water, it is said by Fictes, that its nature has the wonderful power of transmuting the body into spirit. Where it is found alone it overcomes all other things, and is an excellent, harsh, and bitter acid, which transmutes gold into pure spirit. Without this acid we cannot attain either the red, or the black, or the white. When it is combined with bodies, then the body changes into spirit, by a heavenly fire, and immutable, indestructible tincture. Know also that the union must be brought about by a gentle fire, since the elements cannot stand a fierce fire, until the union has taken place. When the gentle heat is applied, the elements devour and consume each other, and yet again, on the other hand, comfort and strengthen each other, and teach each other to stand the test of fire. Hence the Sages say: "Invert the elements, and you will find what you seek." To invert the elements is to make that which is moist, dry, and that which is volatile, fixed. The husband also enforces conjunction that he may reproduce his own likeness. Many strive to accomplish this separation and conjunction; but few succeed in bringing about an union which can stand the test of fire. The composition which is prepared out of our precious substance is not even in the slightest degree diminished in volume by fire. Rather, it is nourished by fire, as a mother nourishes her child.

Do not marvel that the Sages describe our ore under many names, and as consisting of body, soul, and spirit. - Book of Alze


For it is said, Take a body wherein is Argent Vive, pure, clean, unspotted, and incompleat of Nature: such a body after its compleat and perfect cleansing, is much better than the Bodies of Mineral Sol and Luna.
Of this self-same body, which is the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly said; that it is a green Lyon, a stinking Gum, and a white Fume.
But this is spoken of Philosophers, purposely to deceive Folks, and to bring them into doubts, by the many different names.
But understand thou shalt, one thing always is really signified, though accidentally and by names it is said to be three: for the Green Lyon, Stinking Gum, and White Fume, are spoken of one and the same subject, wherein they altogether lie hid, until by Art they are made manifest. - Philosophia Maturata Of the Stone of the Philosopher


The numerous writers on our most noble Art have never wearied of singing its praises, and inventing for it new and glorious names. Its most precious object they have called the PHILOSOPHER'S STONE, or the most ancient, secret, natural, incomprehensible, heavenly, blessed, beatified, and triune universal Stone of the Sages. Their reason for naming it a stone, or likening it to a stone, was this: First because its original Matter is really a kind of stone, which, being hard and solid like a stone, may be pounded, reduced to powder, and resolved into its three elements (which Nature herself has joined together), and then again may be re-combined into a solid stone of the fusibility of wax: by the skilled hand of the artist adjusting the law of Nature. - The Waterstone of the Wise


Now in answer to your question as to whether this operation has one root or many, know that it has but one, and but one matter and one substance of which and with which alone it is done, nor is anything added to it or subtracted to it. When certain of his disciples asked Herakleios what you have asked me, he told them how a single root grows into many tings which return again to one, if they get air. Ostanes declared that the four elements, heat, wetness, cold and dryness, are basically one, and that certain of these four are compounded of the others, as though some were roots of which the others are composed. The true roots are water and fire, and composed of these are earth and air. Also, Ostanes, said to Maria that it is our quicksilver that has dominance over our earth, being very clear and pure, while earth is made is made of crudest water. And Hermes said that earth is the mother of the elements, which are born of her and return to her. Moses, too, said all things come of the earth and return to it. As Hermes said, just as all things come of one, so also is the Great Work done with one thing and one substance. Even so does man contain the four elements united in his body, though God created them variously as dry or separate, joined and collected or scattered. But each operation functions in a different way, having its own color and proper application. It is thus that this matter is to be understood. The philosophers have given many such confirmations". - The Book of Morienus


1- What the reputed "masters" of this "art" say (like the quotations above from one of Zosimos' treatise)
to be weary and shrewd of all reputed masters and study nature


2- What our own experience and common sense tell us
to look to nature


For the moment being, until some of us one day finally empirically finish "the job" and succeed in preparing it
i hope someone does, a big step for mankind :eek:

elixirmixer
11-26-2017, 06:55 AM
All you need is love.

OR 584 Hertz pumped through a rodin coil ;)

I Was really thinking deeply about reality today and I was focused on opening the base Chakra and I was using my Franz Bardon training, and it was great anyway; its hard to put it all into words.

I realized how important it is to get your sexual energy up into the heart zone thats for sure.

Jesus - "If you have not love, you can do nothing."

JDP
11-26-2017, 02:26 PM
the trap

- Book of Alze

Which quotation in fact implies that it is not "one matter only".


- Philosophia Maturata Of the Stone of the Philosopher

Which is a MANIPULATED & MUTILATED version of a text attributed to St. Dunstan, which in fact says this:

"Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers FROM THE COMPOUND, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names."



- The Book of Morienus

Which then soon begins to openly contradict such a statement by mentioning several matters under several "decknamen" (not under their real names) as the components of the Stone:

"But that which prepares this body is blood, or virgin's milk,for it unites and joins ALL THE VARIOUS SUBSTANCES AND PROPERTIES INTO ONE BODY, it being only necessary to apply to them a gentle heat that long continues at the same degree, neither increasing nor decreasing."

"THE THINGS in which the entire accomplishment of this operation consists are the red vapor, the yellow vapor, the white vapor, the green lion, ocher, the impurities of the dead and of the stones, blood, eudica, and foul earth."

"The whole key to accomplishment of this operation is in the fire, with which THE MINERALS are prepared and the bad spirits held back, and with which the spirit and body are joined."


to be weary and shrewd of all reputed masters and study nature

What for? It is those masters who made it, not nature.


to look to nature

Which does NOT make the Stone and therefore can actually teach you JACK-SQUAT regarding the subject. "Follow Nature" = Philosophical Lip Service = Blind Alley. The reason why this "advice" is so freely dispensed by so many alchemists is in fact because IT ACTUALLY LEADS NOWHERE. You might as well tell people to "Follow the Shoemaker" in order to learn how to perform heart surgery!

Luxus
11-26-2017, 05:02 PM
JDP,

Alchemists were a strange mix of philosophers, Occultists and Scientists so when they say the stone is made from three or four things combined and then contradict themselves by saying it is made of one thing there is no paradox in that statement. You are aware of the tetractys diagram right...all things proceed from one thing. Even in modern Science there is the idea of a big bang in which all matter evolved from this one point...what was the nature of the matter contained in this one point?

JDP
11-26-2017, 05:17 PM
JDP,

Alchemists were a strange mix of philosophers, Occultists and Scientists so when they say the stone is made from three or four things combined and then contradict themselves by saying it is made of one thing there is no paradox in that statement. You are aware of the tetractys diagram right...all things proceed from one thing. Even in modern Science there is the idea of a big bang in which all matter evolved from this one point...what was the nature of the matter contained in this one point?

When you are intending to instruct someone -anyone!- how to make something, the very minute that you start pulling such contradictions and paradoxes you are deliberately confusing people. This is by its very nature MALICIOUS, MISCHIEVOUS and/or ENVIOUS. "Occultist" or "no occultist". So this type of alchemists who often contradict their very own statements fall in this general category. Notice that modern science DOES NOT do this. Even though it believes that "protons/neutrons" and the accompanying "electrons" are the basic building block of all matter (at the atomic level; let's not go into its theories regarding the subatomic one) we don't see it trying to mislead people by telling them that Club Soda, for example, is made from "one matter only" and thus sending all those interested in making it into a blind alley. This would obviously be a DEVIOUS trick to DELIBERATELY confuse people and propel them into the realm of technical impossibilities. Same thing with the Stone.

Luxus
11-26-2017, 06:06 PM
When you are intending to instruct someone -anyone!- how to make something, the very minute that you start pulling such contradictions and paradoxes you are deliberately confusing people. This is by its very nature MALICIOUS, MISCHIEVOUS and/or ENVIOUS. "Occultist" or "no occultist". So this type of alchemists who often contradict their very own statements fall in this general category. Notice that modern science DOES NOT do this. Even though it believes that "protons/neutrons" and the accompanying "electrons" are the basic building block of all matter (at the atomic level; let's not go into its theories regarding the subatomic one) we don't see it trying to mislead people by telling them that Club Soda, for example, is made from "one matter only" and thus sending all those interested in making it into a blind alley. This would obviously be a DEVIOUS trick to DELIBERATELY confuse people and propel them into the realm of technical impossibilities. Same thing with the Stone.

This would be all true IF you assumed the Alchemist wanted to convey this information in a 1,2,3..A,B,C format for any and all to understand however that is not the case. Alchemy comes from a time in which "knowledge is power" and "do not cast pearls before swine" was understood and also you had to prove yourself worthy to know such a great arcanum. So yes the Alchemist will contradict himself, he will bring you on that roller-coaster ride and he will mix gibberish with truth. You are to understand truth when you hear it, it is your job to pick the roses among the thorns.

JDP
11-26-2017, 07:50 PM
This would be all true IF you assumed the Alchemist wanted to convey this information in a 1,2,3..A,B,C format for any and all to understand however that is not the case. Alchemy comes from a time in which "knowledge is power" and "do not cast pearls before swine" was understood and also you had to prove yourself worthy to know such a great arcanum. So yes the Alchemist will contradict himself, he will bring you on that roller-coaster ride and he will mix gibberish with truth. You are to understand truth when you hear it, it is your job to pick the roses among the thorns.

And the only way to do that is through loads of empirical experience, which brings me to my original point: thus far it shows that the "one matter only" claim is nothing but a big dead-end, exactly as should be expected from the words of those alchemists who keep insisting that several matters are used in making the Stone.

elixirmixer
11-26-2017, 10:22 PM
Do you claim to have created the secret solvent JDP?

How many minerals compose the true Compound?

elixirmixer
11-26-2017, 10:41 PM
So for EM's first Stone attempt should we go for the Schmuldvich's Red Earth with an Andro "One Flask - One Fire - One Matter" Type situation..

Or....

Should I go for an "Aquarius" Materia, a JDP compound, with some RedLion fancypants tips and tricks?

I said Aquarius because that picture we have a hlaf a dozen posts ago has a guy pissing in a basin with a word writen along his 'Stream' and it translates to Aquarius. Thanks to JDP otherwise I wouldnt have been able to translate as the colour photo is not as clear in that section as the other version in black and white.

Why do you think they refered to the weewee's as "Aquarius?" Maybe its why im such a piss-head (aussie word for heavy beer drinker)

JDP
11-26-2017, 11:29 PM
Do you claim to have created the secret solvent JDP?

No, not yet, but I have already seen some "strange" things by tinkering around with several substances and their reactions with one another, interesting and intriguing things I never ever saw by manipulating any single substance whatsoever.


How many minerals compose the true Compound?

That's the million dollar question that everyone would like to have an answer for. Even the alchemists who are clearer and more honest always adopt a more enigmatic and vague tone when it comes to talking about the number and identity of these initial substances. We are talking about the very beginning of the work, the most crucial part. Without figuring this out there just is no "alchemy".

Dragon's Tail
11-26-2017, 11:43 PM
No, not yet, but I have already seen some "strange" things by tinkering around with several substances and their reactions with one another, interesting and intriguing things I never ever saw by manipulating any single substance whatsoever.


Cool. I just finished reading the Hermes Paradigm vol. III, even though I don't have copies of I, II, or IV, or any other works he decided to write after that. He recommends the "many jars experiment" and learning to "extract" the oil of metals with several different solvents, then talks about Kerckringer's Menstruum for a bit, then mentions another "Secret Solvent," but of course provides no details as to what it is. He does however speak about basic solutions with a lot of emphasis, seemingly because they are not as common in the usage as acids, but I mean he really sticks the point about how to extract an oil tincture with them.

JDP
11-26-2017, 11:44 PM
So for EM's first Stone attempt should we go for the Schmuldvich's Red Earth with an Andro "One Flask - One Fire - One Matter" Type situation..

Or....

Should I go for an "Aquarius" Materia, a JDP compound, with some RedLion fancypants tips and tricks?

I said Aquarius because that picture we have a hlaf a dozen posts ago has a guy pissing in a basin with a word writen along his 'Stream' and it translates to Aquarius. Thanks to JDP otherwise I wouldnt have been able to translate as the colour photo is not as clear in that section as the other version in black and white.

Why do you think they refered to the weewee's as "Aquarius?" Maybe its why im such a piss-head (aussie word for heavy beer drinker)

Actually it says "Acuatio" (literally: "Sharpening".) The Latin the text is written in is awkward at times, you can find attempted translations of all these lines that accompany the drawings here:

http://www.magia-metachemica.net/uploads/1/0/6/2/10624795/cabala_mineralis_manuscript_book1.pdf

http://www.magia-metachemica.net/uploads/1/0/6/2/10624795/cabala_mineralis_manuscript_book2.pdf

Notice: the "Cabala Mineralis" is yet another text that also implies that at least 3 substances enter into play to make the Stone.

Kibric
11-28-2017, 01:50 AM
it is clearly referring to a composition made out of one matter

" The composition which is prepared out of our precious substance " (not substances)

" Of this very Body the matter of the Stone "

" Of this (singular/one) very body (not these "bodies") the matter (not matters/multiple) of the stone "

to this (singular) body/matter (not matters/multiple) just mentioned
3 things are attributed

" three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume "

" but this is inferred by the Philosophers FROM THE COMPOUND, "
inffered from the compound
which has just previously been stated as being " this very Body (singualr) the matter (not matters/multiple) of the Stone "
to which 3 things are cheifely spoken
" The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume;"
it is very clearly saying the compound is this (singular/one) very body
that 3 things are spoken of.

dismising the one matter approach because on a personal level you dont believe it
is not conducive to a proper scientific method and rather childish

i dont believe that a mixture of different substances will bring about success
but i wont dimiss the approach just because it doesnt agree with me

its easier to say all alchemists talking about one matter is a trap
than to face the possibility you haven't understood they're words fully

i dont want to get into a quote war
we really only have to prove these things to ourselves


Which does NOT make the Stone and therefore can actually teach you JACK-SQUAT regarding the subject.
"Follow Nature" = Philosophical Lip Service = Blind Alley. The reason why this "advice" is so freely dispensed by so many alchemists is in
fact because IT ACTUALLY LEADS NOWHERE. You might as well tell people to "Follow the Shoemaker" in order to learn how to perform heart surgery!
Got to be the most ridiculous thing i have heard from someone supposed to be a heavyweight around here
Follow nature = look to her operations (ya know observation of natural chemistry)
leads nowhere ? is just another opinion of yours without any empirical evidence your trying to pass off as fact
maybe leads nowhere for you :(
im sure there are alchemists out there who would disagree from 1st hand experience and experimentation


Which does NOT make the Stone and therefore can actually teach you JACK-SQUAT regarding the subject.
nature doesn't finish the work the artist does by studying her processes
her operations
nature teaches you alot about the subject, but is unable to complete the work herself
but trying to complete the work without listening to nature and how she works ?
i wish you the best....

i can see any serious alchemist isn't gonna learn JACK-SQUAT from a narrow minded approach as yours

Good luck with whatever you think alchemy is

JDP
11-28-2017, 07:56 PM
it is clearly referring to a composition made out of one matter

" The composition which is prepared out of our precious substance " (not substances)

" Of this very Body the matter of the Stone "

" Of this (singular/one) very body (not these "bodies") the matter (not matters/multiple) of the stone "

to this (singular) body/matter (not matters/multiple) just mentioned
3 things are attributed

" three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume "

" but this is inferred by the Philosophers FROM THE COMPOUND, "
inffered from the compound
which has just previously been stated as being " this very Body (singualr) the matter (not matters/multiple) of the Stone "
to which 3 things are cheifely spoken
" The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume;"
it is very clearly saying the compound is this (singular/one) very body
that 3 things are spoken of.

You are confusing (on purpose?) quotes from different texts. Plus the "Book of Alze", besides the quote that you first tried to pull, which contradicts the "one matter only" claim, also says things like:

"To the spiritual substance God gives that which Nature could not give it. For Nature has nothing so precious as the true Tincture; and if with its bodies (plural, not singular) it become liquid, it produces a marvellous effect."


"These are the only things (plural, not singular) that have the power of making red and white, both inwardly and outwardly."

"That water is also called poison; it is the principle of life, because it is a soul, and extracted from many things. (plural, not singular) All bodies that this Tincture enters are quickened; all bodies (plural, not singular) from which it is extracted are (plural, not singular) destroyed. Its potency is spiritual blood, which, if well mixed with bodies (plural, not singular), transmutes them (plural, not singular) into spirits, and combines with them (plural, not singular) into one substance."


dismising the one matter approach because on a personal level you dont believe it
is not conducive to a proper scientific method and rather childish

I dismiss it for the TWO reasons I already explained to you before: 1- What a bunch of other alchemists who talk more clearly & honestly about this subject say regarding what the "one matter/thing" ACTUALLY means and 2- empirical experience and common sense, which do not contradict what they say.


its easier to say all alchemists talking about one matter is a trap
than to face the possibility you haven't understood they're words fully

It is easier to fall for this tempting trap than to face empirical realities. Where is this marvelous "one matter only" found in nature that can perform all of what the alchemists describe in their texts? How come in the more than 200 years that chemistry has been around, subjecting just about every naturally occurring substance that has ever been found to analysis, no one has been able to find any such matter? And how about the hundreds more years worth of "puffers" submitting the same single natural matters to all manner of operations and finding none that could fit all of what the alchemists describe?


i dont want to get into a quote war
we really only have to prove these things to ourselves


Yet that is what you attempted to do.


Got to be the most ridiculous thing i have heard from someone supposed to be a heavyweight around here
Follow nature = look to her operations (ya know observation of natural chemistry)
leads nowhere ? is just another opinion of yours without any empirical evidence your trying to pass off as fact
maybe leads nowhere for you :(

Got to be the most naive thing I have seen around here. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Show us, oh Heavy Weight Champion of Empirical Evidence, where exactly do we see nature making anything remotely resembling the Philosophers' Stone? I am waiting. Provide verifiable evidence that something having any similar properties as the Stone has ever been found already made somewhere in a NATURAL setting, like a mine, or a quarry, for example.


im sure there are alchemists out there who would disagree from 1st hand experience and experimentation

And none of them have made the Stone either.


nature doesn't finish the work the artist does by studying her processes
her operations
nature teaches you alot about the subject, but is unable to complete the work herself
but trying to complete the work without listening to nature and how she works ?
i wish you the best....

It seems like you have a very hard time distinguishing theories/speculations/conjectures from actual empirical facts. Plus your logic is about as faulty as that of the alchemists who proposed such doctrines. Since nature supposedly cannot finish the thing itself, then how in blazes can anyone learn how to finish it then, if, as you say, we must rely on it as a supposed "teacher"? Wouldn't we keep on failing by just "imitating" it, then? The supposed "master" cannot do something that the supposedly more ignorant pupil can? This is tantamount to such a ridiculous claim as saying that nature really knows how to make Coca-Cola, but somehow cannot "finish the job" and is up to man to "help it" do it. Bonkers! Nature will not make Coca-Cola even if you give it a million years of "help" by putting the necessary matters together, and you doing nothing but waiting for it to do "something" after you gave it this big "help". It is man and his intelligent interventions that make possible all such artificial products that nature itself knows JACK-SQUAT about making on its own. If it did, we would see natural fountains of the delicious carbonated goodness springing up somewhere. Fact: nature can only provide raw matters. It is up to man to use these raw materials that nature provides to make up things that nature itself would never make on its own.


i can see any serious alchemist isn't gonna learn JACK-SQUAT from a narrow minded approach as yours

Good luck with whatever you think alchemy is

Certainly a much more realistic and empirically-grounded view of the subject than the speculative musings that you seem to entertain as actually being "alchemy".

Warmheart
11-28-2017, 10:24 PM
I think people are looking too much into Chemistry books and some convoluted and sophisticated operations in dusty rooms. I think that if they looked closer to what happens outside the window, they could notice a lot of wonderful things happening in the Nature.

JDP
11-28-2017, 11:59 PM
I think people are looking too much into Chemistry books and some convoluted and sophisticated operations in dusty rooms. I think that if they looked closer to what happens outside the window, they could notice a lot of wonderful things happening in the Nature.

Unfortunately none of which produce anything resembling the Stone. Why is it so difficult for some of you to recognize this simple fact? The Stone is man-made, there are no "ifs" or "buts" about it. The reason why many alchemists were obsessed with nature and attributing everything to it is because they fancied themselves "natural philosophers". But the reality is that what they were doing in their labs had precious little to do with how nature operates and what it produces. In fact, one of the main arguments AGAINST alchemy by its theoretical opponents all through the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period was the fact that man simply did not know how to operate like nature did, and under the same conditions that nature did, therefore making silver and gold must be "impossible" for man. To this laughable objection the alchemists in their turn often gave a set of equally laughable "answers". Some of them, though, more astutely and observantly, did point out that "Art" could do things that nature simply cannot, and that artificial gold and silver were purer than their natural counter-parts, so this objection was moot and not based on empirical facts.

Warmheart
11-29-2017, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately none of which produce anything resembling the Stone. Why is it so difficult for some of you to recognize this simple fact? The Stone is man-made, there are no "ifs" or "buts" about it. The reason why many alchemists were obsessed with nature and attributing everything to it is because they fancied themselves "natural philosophers". But the reality is that what they were doing in their labs had precious little to do with how nature operates and what it produces. In fact, one of the main arguments AGAINST alchemy by its theoretical opponents all through the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period was the fact that man simply did not know how to operate like nature did, and under the same conditions that nature did, therefore making silver and gold must be "impossible" for man. To this laughable objection the alchemists in their turn often gave a set of equally laughable "answers". Some of them, though, more astutely and observantly, did point out that "Art" could do things that nature simply cannot, and that artificial gold and silver were purer than their natural counter-parts, so this objection was moot and not based on empirical facts.
But neither official chemistry didn't have success in producing Stone, nor did pharmacology succeed in making actual medicines, which can prolong human's life to at very least 10000 years. Even getting to 100 years is considered as something highly outstanding in modern society.

Meanwhile Nature's wonders are abound. It is sad that people became blinded by their reliance on official science and can't see and feel otherwise obvious things.

JDP
11-29-2017, 04:01 PM
But neither official chemistry didn't have success in producing Stone,

And that's my point: obviously the secret of alchemy is quite a bit more complex than just finding some matter out there in nature and "purifying" it and "cooking" it. That's one of the main reasons why so many who overestimated alchemy's alleged "simplicity" have failed. The reality is that it is not easy to stumble upon the right combination of substances, proportions and treatments that leads to success.


nor did pharmacology succeed in making actual medicines, which can prolong human's life to at very least 10000 years. Even getting to 100 years is considered as something highly outstanding in modern society.

Meanwhile Nature's wonders are abound. It is sad that people became blinded by their reliance on official science and can't see and feel otherwise obvious things.

But if it was up to nature and its ways the average human would be dead much sooner. People in prehistoric times were fairly lucky if they could make it past the age of 15 and into their 20s-30s-40s-50s. The reason why mankind has increasingly been able to extend its own life-span is precisely because of its ingenuity.

Warmheart
11-29-2017, 07:25 PM
But if it was up to nature and its ways the average human would be dead much sooner. People in prehistoric times were fairly lucky if they could make it past the age of 15 and into their 20s-30s-40s-50s. The reason why mankind has increasingly been able to extend its own life-span is precisely because of its ingenuity.
This is actually false premise. If to look at various known people who lived over 2000 ago, they all lived lives of same length as we do. This is as false premise as general theory of evolution, etc. Mankind's science can't see much past last couple centuries, and it judges about the events of recent several thousands years on some hearsay, and we all know how people like to juggle history events. Mankind's science can't even look much further than few thousands years BC.

People greatly degraded over the course of time. If to compare technologies of this age with what people knew and could do around 30 thousands years ago - a VAST abyss separates those people and modern people. This age is age of total ignorance, when mankind corrupts and destroys Nature to serve Golden Calf. Where I live, the air is corrupted - can barely breath it, water is corrupted, can't swim in it, earth brings toxic fruits - can't eat those. It requires little to no brains to corrupt something, but can modern people produce something without massive corruption? That's what separates current science of mankind and Alchemy.

JDP
11-29-2017, 07:57 PM
This is actually false premise. If to look at various known people who lived over 2000 ago, they all lived lives of same length as we do. This is as false premise as general theory of evolution, etc. Mankind's science can't see much past last couple centuries, and it judges about the events of recent several thousands years on some hearsay, and we all know how people like to juggle history events. Mankind's science can't even look much further than few thousands years BC.

People greatly degraded over the course of time. If to compare technologies of this age with what people knew and could do around 30 thousands years ago - a VAST abyss separates those people and modern people. This age is age of total ignorance, when mankind corrupts and destroys Nature to serve Golden Calf. Where I live, the air is corrupted - can barely breath it, water is corrupted, can't swim in it, earth brings toxic fruits - can't eat those. It requires little to no brains to corrupt something, but can modern people produce something without massive corruption? That's what separates current science of mankind and Alchemy.

It is not a false premise. It is well known that people in past ages had much higher mortality rates than today. If you go back to prehistory, people were pretty lucky if they could survive their teens. Early man in fact was even still pretty much a "dish" for some animals in the "food chain". Since ancient times we have gradually become the indisputable masters of this planet, and regularly being "on the menu" of any other organism is no longer happening. Be thankful for it!

Dragon's Tail
11-29-2017, 08:53 PM
Anytime you discuss "life spans," you have to also factor in infant and child mortality rates. I've read speculation that once you pass 20 years of age, the remainder today don't live exceptionally longer than those of any other period. The key is, if you made it 20, hehe. The other thing is rate of women dying in childbirth.

Our "modern" culture has pretty much done away with all the deaths surrounding child birth. Kids also don't join the military in their teens. Those facts alone can skew the numbers pretty hard. Just because the average calculated might be 30 years, most people after hitting that mark lived much longer.

Just something to consider, back to the show.

Edit: another thing to consider is where we are getting these numbers at all, and how good the data is from 200 or 2000 years ago, depending.

Warmheart
11-29-2017, 09:02 PM
It is not a false premise. It is well known that people in past ages had much higher mortality rates than today. If you go back to prehistory, people were pretty lucky if they could survive their teens. Early man in fact was even still pretty much a "dish" for some animals in the "food chain". Since ancient times we have gradually become the indisputable masters of this planet, and regularly being "on the menu" of any other organism is no longer happening. Be thankful for it!
But what do actually modern people know about "prehistory"? Other than some stupid assumptions of Darvin followers and totally bizarre theories like "natural selection", which is used to excuse massive destruction of nature and robbing poor and sick people?

I can bring counter-example - Ethiopia. Up to this time, Ethiopian people consider themselves pretty much an expendables. And I am afraid that Ethiopia doesn't reflect our past, it reflects our possible future.

I could write more about it, but just ask yourself, if we are so "progressed", then why most of people are still suffering from hunger, pain, diseases, poverty? Why rich people keep exploiting the poor and why people keep destroying the nature?

When one realizes that all this "progress" is fake and that he actually knows nothing about this world, only then he is ready to start his path of learning the most Transcendental Science, which is Alchemy.

JDP
11-30-2017, 12:45 AM
But what do actually modern people know about "prehistory"? Other than some stupid assumptions of Darvin followers and totally bizarre theories like "natural selection", which is used to excuse massive destruction of nature and robbing poor and sick people?

I can bring counter-example - Ethiopia. Up to this time, Ethiopian people consider themselves pretty much an expendables. And I am afraid that Ethiopia doesn't reflect our past, it reflects our possible future.

I could write more about it, but just ask yourself, if we are so "progressed", then why most of people are still suffering from hunger, pain, diseases, poverty? Why rich people keep exploiting the poor and why people keep destroying the nature?

When one realizes that all this "progress" is fake and that he actually knows nothing about this world, only then he is ready to start his path of learning the most Transcendental Science, which is Alchemy.

You can get an idea of what was going on back then by examining human remains of those times. A lot of people died while they were still young. During historical times it is actually easier to get an idea because on top of the human remains we also have historical accounts. In past centuries people tended to marry and have children when they were younger precisely because life expectancy was also lower. Instead of maligning progress, we should be thankful that progress in medicine has largely contributed to lower the mortality rate. It is one of the main reasons why on average we live longer in our age than those before.

Axismundi000
11-30-2017, 01:34 AM
I agree JDP. I have several family members who would have died if modern medicine had not been available.

Warmheart
11-30-2017, 03:00 AM
You can get an idea of what was going on back then by examining human remains of those times. A lot of people died while they were still young. During historical times it is actually easier to get an idea because on top of the human remains we also have historical accounts. In past centuries people tended to marry and have children when they were younger precisely because life expectancy was also lower. Instead of maligning progress, we should be thankful that progress in medicine has largely contributed to lower the mortality rate. It is one of the main reasons why on average we live longer in our age than those before.
Even modern science admits that mere 1000 years is enough to totally clear any evidence of highly progressed races from the face of tge Earth.

Imagine catastrophe and technological collapse. Then someone 1000 years later will start examining human bones in Ethiopia and will notice they are mostly children. They will think that radioschemes are some kind of Magic Sigils, which were worshiped (admittedly our formulas would look like conjurations on some barbarous language to them).

They, post-catatstrophe people, will barely live 50 years but will claim that it is huge progress, because earlier people were living only to 20 tops and they will have lots of human remains to back up such claims.

They will burn coal for their needs and build wooden houses and say that their ancestors lived in caves, worshiped some stones and didn't even know how to cut trees.

What I wrote about hypothetical future is exactly what happens now. We live in Dark Age. And it seems that it is going to be even darker with time. Hermetic texts and some ancient Eastern texts provide some clues on how to access the Knowledge of old races, and from what I saw - this knowledge FAR surpasses anything that modern people know about this world.

One won't learn anything from Hermetic texts if he thinks that alchemists knew less than modern science, why then go into Alchemy? It is "pseudo science" with little to no practical evidence of its results. Chemistry provides all the necessary medicines, and lets one randomly live up to 100 years. Oh wait, Socrates lived for 70 years before execution, Plato lived for 80 years, and anything before them is factually incomplete (as if there is some black zone few thousands years ago after which human civilization "suddenly" appeared).

Also, Socrates was very poor and wasn't able to afford even the medicine of his time... My grandfather, on other hand, died even before getting to 60 while doctors tried to save him by their highly toxic and very expensive pills (granted it was many years ago, but funnily enough the same pills are still used even nowadays). And he didn't die from cancer or some other "incurable" disease of "modern times", he died being worked out by current society. Woot, what a progress....

JDP
11-30-2017, 04:18 AM
Even modern science admits that mere 1000 years is enough to totally clear any evidence of highly progressed races from the face of tge Earth.

Imagine catastrophe and technological collapse. Then someone 1000 years later will start examining human bones in Ethiopia and will notice they are mostly children. They will think that radioschemes are some kind of Magic Sigils, which were worshiped (admittedly our formulas would look like conjurations on some barbarous language to them).

They, post-catatstrophe people, will barely live 50 years but will claim that it is huge progress, because earlier people were living only to 20 tops and they will have lots of human remains to back up such claims.

They will burn coal for their needs and build wooden houses and say that their ancestors lived in caves, worshiped some stones and didn't even know how to cut trees.

What I wrote about hypothetical future is exactly what happens now. We live in Dark Age. And it seems that it is going to be even darker with time. Hermetic texts and some ancient Eastern texts provide some clues on how to access the Knowledge of old races, and from what I saw - this knowledge FAR surpasses anything that modern people know about this world.

One won't learn anything from Hermetic texts if he thinks that alchemists knew less than modern science, why then go into Alchemy? It is "pseudo science" with little to no practical evidence of its results. Chemistry provides all the necessary medicines, and lets one randomly live up to 100 years. Oh wait, Socrates lived for 70 years before execution, Plato lived for 80 years, and anything before them is factually incomplete (as if there is some black zone few thousands years ago after which human civilization "suddenly" appeared).

Also, Socrates was very poor and wasn't able to afford even the medicine of his time... My grandfather, on other hand, died even before getting to 60 while doctors tried to save him by their highly toxic and very expensive pills (granted it was many years ago, but funnily enough the same pills are still used even nowadays). And he didn't die from cancer or some other "incurable" disease of "modern times", he died being worked out by current society. Woot, what a progress....

Should some catastrophe happen that wipes out our current civilization, archaeologists from the future will still be able to figure out things about us just by examining the remains of our populated areas. They will be able to tell that most of our dead were in fact not children and teenagers but people well into their adult age. We do have a good idea how life was in prehistoric times through the same means. Much more people died at young ages then than now. It was a much more dangerous world, where people were even still being preyed on by large carnivores, and their knowledge of medicine and sanitation was in diapers. There is nothing "mysterious" about why so many of them did not make it past their youth.

Chemistry hasn't figured out alchemy (and also what I like to call "transmutational chymistry") because of a series of ASSUMPTIONS it has made regarding the subject. Its theoretical framework prevents it from doing a proper investigation of the subject because it starts by telling its practitioners that the whole thing is "impossible". So they defeat themselves even before they have started investigating the subject. But still, if you compare alchemy's to chemistry's empirical achievements, it goes without saying that chemistry is a MILLION times more useful to mankind than alchemy ever was. Just by looking at all the useful material goods that chemistry has managed to figure out how to make one can easily perceive this. The very computer that you are using right now to communicate with us in these forums, for example, would be IMPOSSIBLE without chemistry's achievements. Chemistry is a progressive science. Alchemy, on the other hand, always remained in its same old corner it always was in: make the Philosophers' Stone, use it to make gold & silver, and examine its medicinal properties. Which is great, nothing wrong with that, but still a very limited scope when compared to chemistry. And one really should not blame alchemy for having remained "stagnant": it accomplished its goals. There was really not much else for it to do. Chemistry, on the other hand, has much wider goals in mind than alchemy, it wants to investigate and know all there is to know about all aspects of matter, so naturally it continues to expand and progress. To me each science has its merits and its cons, and I myself am very openly critical about chemistry's mistaken ideas regarding transmutation, but in all honesty I have to admit that chemistry is way more useful to mankind than alchemy ever was. Alchemy was always stagnant and elitist. It did not care one bit to benefit all of mankind with its discoveries, only a comparative select few (that's why alchemists came up with all those tons of "decknamen" and other literary devices to make the subject more difficult to figure out by the laymen; note this attitude well. Alchemy effectively segregated itself from the bulk of humanity.) Chemistry, on the other hand, is open and clear in its communications, it does not seek to exclude anyone from its discoveries, and it remains progressive, always seeking new facts, never resting on its laurels. A very different attitude.

Andro
11-30-2017, 08:41 AM
The way I see it, the direction of "modern" medical chemistry is to "manage" symptoms and medical conditions rather than address the causes at the source and actually cure people. Basically, to make sure sick people live longer with their "diseases" so they can spend more money on "managing" them.

The medical industry is driven by profit, like most/all industries (nothing inherently wrong with profit, and I'm definitely not a communist :)), but imagine this: You are a pharmaceutical company that manufactures a variety of medical drugs. The LAST thing you want is to produce a CURE. Your interest will be to keep selling pharmaceuticals to MANAGE the disease/symptoms and maintain sales. With a few exceptions, permanently curing a disease is NOT profitable. Such exceptions would be in most cases related to the danger of massive losses in the ranks of the fit working class.


Chemistry, on the other hand, is open and clear in its communications, it does not seek to exclude anyone from its discoveries.Unless such discoveries pose a threat to the prevailing political/commercial paradigms.

Has anyone heard of Rife and how his cancer curing device was literally destroyed by the "authorities", along with all his research? Have you heard about the imprisonment of people such as Hamer and Reich and the destruction of their documented research? And it wasn't even Alchemy, just very advanced scientific innovation.

A possible Universal Medicine would be a real threat to this paradigm. For such a Universal Medicine to become "mainstream" would require radical changes in our currently prevailing social/financial/political paradigms.


Alchemy effectively segregated itself from the bulk of humanity.And for good reason, IMO. See comments above. Society at large is simply NOT READY. Most people (especially in our "glorified" West) are happy paying half of their yearly wages to their ineffective governments. A radical worldwide change in mentality is highly unlikely. So, until that happens (if ever), areas such as Alchemy, Free Energy, Anti-Gravity, etc, will remain "elitist" and off the common table.

If anyone would (hypothetically) hold the Philosopher's Stone and the Universal Medicine in their hands, what should they do? And what would be the consequences?

Luxus
11-30-2017, 12:18 PM
What are thr practical problems/roadblocks that you have faced in the lab causing you not to succeed?

Yes i believe it is one matter. SM. I Just believe that there are multiple matters which contain/collect this SM. I'll be starting with the same.matter you use Schmuldvich but I am 100% possitive there are better alternatives. However; this one is much more readily available.

Does anybody know of any "techniques" that would result in higher yeild of white crystal?

I was thinking... say you sublime the salts, and then removed them? Would the dry earth attract more spirit all on its own?

What starting matter are you using elixirmixer? So your approach is to produce some crystals and then charge them with SM in a pyramid or Orgone accumulator? You should read the work of Viktor Schauberger, I think you will find his ideas about living and dead water interesting.

Axismundi000
11-30-2017, 12:54 PM
The way I see it, the direction of "modern" medical chemistry is to "manage" symptoms and medical conditions rather than address the causes at the source and actually cure people. Basically, to make sure sick people live longer with their "diseases" so they can spend more money on "managing" them.

The medical industry is driven by profit, like most/all industries (nothing inherently wrong with profit, and I'm definitely not a communist :)), but imagine this: You are a pharmaceutical company that manufactures a variety of medical drugs. The LAST thing you want is to produce a CURE. Your interest will be to keep selling pharmaceuticals to MANAGE the disease/symptoms and maintain sales. With a few exceptions, permanently curing a disease is NOT profitable. Such exceptions would be in most cases related to the danger of massive losses in the ranks of the fit working class.

Unless such discoveries pose a threat to the prevailing political/commercial paradigms.

Has anyone heard of Rife and how his cancer curing device was literally destroyed by the "authorities", along with all his research? Have you heard about the imprisonment of people such as Hamer and Reich and the destruction of their documented research? And it wasn't even Alchemy, just very advanced scientific innovation.

A possible Universal Medicine would be a real threat to this paradigm. For such a Universal Medicine to become "mainstream" would require radical changes in our currently prevailing social/financial/political paradigms.

And for good reason, IMO. See comments above. Society at large is simply NOT READY. Most people (especially in our "glorified" West) are happy paying half of their yearly wages to their ineffective governments. A radical worldwide change in mentality is highly unlikely. So, until that happens (if ever), areas such as Alchemy, Free Energy, Anti-Gravity, etc, will remain "elitist" and off the common table.

If anyone would (hypothetically) hold the Philosopher's Stone and the Universal Medicine in their hands, what should they do? And what would be the consequences?

The salient point here is that life expectancy in countries with good modern medicine services has increased by literally decades. This may be in part due to prosperity (having enough food, better housing, sanitation etc) as well as medicine. What people choose to do with this longer life and improved life conditions is not entirely ‘top down’. People are to some extent responsible for their own life choices and refuse to see outside the absurd conflicting ensemble of social and human relations the comprises modern life in affluent countries. Modern medicine in my view does not necessarily promote this mentality in fact the opposite sometimes. For example the increase in type 2 diabetes due to junk food and high sugar foods is something that is regularly warned against by the British medical association (BMA) here in the UK yet this problem continues to worsen. The idea that modern medicine seeks to produce dependancy on drugs and services is simply not true as far as I can tell. The BMA sees drug dependency as a major problem which is associated I feel with one of the other great advances over the last 150 years in medicine; pain relief in surgeries or for general chronic pain. A few centuries ago many died screaming in agony but this need not be so in the current day.

Warmheart
11-30-2017, 02:15 PM
The salient point here is that life expectancy in countries with good modern medicine services has increased by literally decades. This may be in part due to prosperity (having enough food, better housing, sanitation etc) as well as medicine.
I live on the margin of two "worlds". One world near me is huge metropolis. Its air is poisoned, people talk with each other on language of lies, there are barely any green plants there. There people have illusion of prosperity living in their toxic world.

On other hand there is another world - dying cities and villages, where people live on less than 100 dollars a month, a lot of homeless people, while big salesmen increase the price of small living apartments to astronomical numbers. It is like historical XIIth century in that world. Lack of food, no sanitation and high crime rate rule there.

And modern medicine is just a joke. Over 10 years ago I broke hand, and so wanted to visit doctor a few years later just to had advice of "removing" broken bones. Horrified I simply refused and continued to live with it, and it seems that broken bones are slightly recovered over course of time.

A few centuries ago many died screaming in agony but this need not be so in the current day.
There were many different kinds of anesthetics, but they were produced purely from natural materials. It isn't economically sustainable to produce such anesthetics in our time, so they are replaced by those which can be put in quick and mass production. Which leads to another problem of modern people - critical overpopulation, there is totally no demographic policy, because it hurts capitalistic ideas of infinite growth and expansion. Earth, however, isn't infinite. When there are 7 billions of people, there will simply be not enough food, clothes, real medicines, pure water, etc. for all of them, so they have to deal with cheap and dirty substitutes.

Theoretically, if people get access to physical immortality, they will totally destroy this planet if they won't limit their massive generation. People don't have control over their instincts of progeneration, it is way too early to speak about mass availability of real medicine. However, as many wise people noted, physical immortality is a necessary step toward real progress. But currently mankind as a whole looks like demented child and given immortality it will destroy itself and planet with it. This is also the reason why Adepts always wrote in riddles and coded language, such knowledge could easily be used to oppress the poor and the sick even more by provoking new even Darker Age.

As many old texts note, even Bible, though I consider its legends to be corrupted, people's downfall started when they started abusing their knowledge to hurt those who are around them. And so they fell from their pedestals of Godlike Entities into total Darkness of Matter, losing all they knew, and they still insist on doing what they did - oppressing the weak, trying to get control over other living entities and enslaving them and such. The more I think about it, the more sad I feel about the current state of the world.

Kiorionis
11-30-2017, 03:35 PM
The medical industry is driven by profit, like most/all industries (nothing inherently wrong with profit, and I'm definitely not a communist :)), but imagine this: You are a pharmaceutical company that manufactures a variety of medical drugs. The LAST thing you want is to produce a CURE. Your interest will be to keep selling pharmaceuticals to MANAGE the disease/symptoms and maintain sales. With a few exceptions, permanently curing a disease is NOT profitable. Such exceptions would be in most cases related to the danger of massive losses in the ranks of the fit working class.

Another good example of this is, awhile back, the World Health Organization did a study on which “medicines” would be viable to health in third world countries, as they were looking to set up aid programs. They found that only 2% of drugs on the western market were actually useful.

Axismundi000
11-30-2017, 05:18 PM
I do not doubt that people can be silly and foolish or that cities pollute. However the actual observable reality is that in a modern affluent country people live about 30 years longer than they did 200 years ago. Modern medicine has played a major part in this and to suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of simple observation. Here in the UK people live much longer and don’t die from the diseases they used to die from; eg polio or TB. I would take what you say more seriously if you accepted these actual observable facts. I’m sure in poorer countries it is different this is why UK has an immigration problem. If you come here you live decades longer your children are less likely to die, free healthcare etc.

I have no issue with the idea that modern medicine has limitations, not holistic, not spiritual stuff like that. But to suggest as it seems to me here that it is inherently bad well the observable benefits of a functioning healthcare system refute this. So yes if you can’t get access to proper modern healthcare for whatever reason I’m sure it is different but when you can it is a benefit.

Warmheart
11-30-2017, 06:09 PM
I do not doubt that people can be silly and foolish or that cities pollute. However the actual observable reality is that in a modern affluent country people live about 30 years longer than they did 200 years ago.
But what about Socrates? Poor man who couldn't afford medicine of this time, was executed at 70, and he was on legs and in his own mind?
What about Plato who lived till 80?
What about Democritus who lived around 90 years?

Just for anecdotic examples, people who work in mines become cripples even in their 40 - this is still common situation of today. People die because of working 8 days a week 30 hours a day for piece of bread, or while working on toxic factories - all of those are mostly based in 2nd+ world countries, which feed 1st world countries. No medicine can help those people who basically sacrifice their lives for piece of bread and that so super elite could feel themselves rich. Gas/oil/coal/metallurgy - some people never even saw those, while others die from sulfuric intoxication and such. Current joke medicine doesn't even try to help those people.

Of course, when you remove such factors out of the picture, people will look as if they live longer. But is it because of science/medicine or just because there is other, larger half of world, which does all the dirty job to feed the rest?

And even now we can't get proper statistics because of so many homeless people, which are simply not counted anywhere, and each year there is more and more of those. What to say about 200 years ago? Especially if to consider that statistics was always an instrument of manipulation and even current story becomes corrupted by the efforts of politicians?

I don't want to look like religious fanatic, I don't like religion (because it is full of lies and manipulations and it made people forget God instead of leading to Him). But if you entrust yourself in the hands of God, you will see how deeply rotten is this world, and you will see Lost Paradise, you will see and experience the most marvelous things. And only through God can one get understanding of Alchemical matters. As Basilius Valentine wrote: "The first thing is Invocatio Dei". This is the start of the work and, for some reason, many people refuse to believe it even when they are told directly and in plain words.

Axismundi000
11-30-2017, 06:28 PM
But what about Socrates? Poor man who couldn't afford medicine of this time, was executed at 70, and he was on legs and in his own mind?
What about Plato who lived till 80?
What about Democritus who lived around 90 years?

Just for anecdotic examples, people who work in mines become cripples even in their 40 - this is still common situation of today. People die because of working 8 days a week 30 hours a day for piece of bread, or while working on toxic factories - all of those are mostly based in 2nd+ world countries, which feed 1st world countries. No medicine can help those people who basically sacrifice their lives for piece of bread and that so super elite could feel themselves rich. Gas/oil/coal/metallurgy - some people never even saw those, while others die from sulfuric intoxication and such. Current joke medicine doesn't even try to help those people.

Of course, when you remove such factors out of the picture, people will look as if they live longer. But is it because of science/medicine or just because there is other, larger half of world, which does all the dirty job to feed the rest?

And even now we can't get proper statistics because of so many homeless people, which are simply not counted anywhere, and each year there is more and more of those. What to say about 200 years ago? Especially if to consider that statistics was always an instrument of manipulation and even current story becomes corrupted by the efforts of politicians?

I don't want to look like religious fanatic, I don't like religion (because it is full of lies and manipulations and it made people forget God instead of leading to Him). But if you entrust yourself in the hands of God, you will see how deeply rotten is this world, and you will see Lost Paradise, you will see and experience the most marvelous things. And only through God can one get understanding of Alchemical matters. As Basilius Valentine wrote: "The first thing is Invocatio Dei". This is the start of the work and, for some reason, many people refuse to believe it even when they are told directly and in plain words.

Obviously bad work conditions and no proper medical services will shorten life what is your point here? Yes the world is a bad place one part eats rich sugary food and gets diabetes the other half starves. There are many factors apart from the efficacy of modern medicine. The inescapable fact however is that despite its shortcomings modern medicine is the most successful medical discipline in known history for curing diseases, extending lives and reducing pain. Where it’s application is hapahazard or social and general living conditions are severe it’s benefits are limited obviously. If you cure a person of TB but they die of starvation you have not helped. Perhaps this anecdote from my childhood will help: when I was 12 I was upset ( I forget about what). My uncle said to me do I still believe Father Christmas is real I answered no. He asked do I still think it is the tooth fairy that used to put money under my pillow when I had lost one of my milk teeth, I answered no. My uncle then wondered why on earth did I still think life is generally fair.

Kibric
11-30-2017, 08:13 PM
JDP i'm not here to serve your Ego
you can think whatever you want

any realistic and empirically grounded view of the subject wouldn't dismiss a majority of authors talking about one matter
just because it doesn't agree with them personally
as i said before you might of found no evidence or success in it
but you cant speak for every other alchemist out there who has considered this approach
i guess you'll try....


and none of them have made the Stone either.
what EGO, just because they haven't revealed it to you personally doesn't mean they didn't find success
the inability to accept new ideas that challenge the way we think is a sign of Hubris
despite what you may think you aren't all knowing


Provide verifiable evidence that something having any similar properties as the Stone has ever been found already made somewhere in a NATURAL setting, like a mine, or a quarry, for example.
Animals in the jungle eat clay from certain places to heal themselves
Thermal springs have long been reported to aid in healing
here's a link discussing both sides of Radon rich water
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2477672/


Since nature supposedly cannot finish the thing itself, then how in blazes can anyone learn how to finish it then,
if, as you say, we must rely on it as a supposed "teacher"? Wouldn't we keep on failing by just "imitating" it, then?
Imitating it ? did i say that ? are you purposefully being dense or does it come naturally ?


nature doesn't finish the work the artist does by studying(not imitation) her processes her operations
nature teaches you alot about the subject, but is unable to complete the work herself
my point being with study of her operations we find what nature may be missing in order to be able to complete the work

trying to have a conversation with someone who will not accept any other view other than their own is fruitless
Good luck with whatever you think alchemy is...


i dont believe that a mixture of different substances will bring about success
but i wont dimiss the approach just because it doesnt agree with me

JDP
12-01-2017, 05:14 AM
JDP i'm not here to serve your Ego

No, just yours.


you can think whatever you want

And I will. I am not easily convinced by such flimsy arguments.


any realistic and empirically grounded view of the subject wouldn't dismiss a majority of authors talking about one matter

And who says they are the majority? I would rather say that the majority point out or at least imply that several matters are used in making the Stone. Plus many of them (like the previously cited Zosimos) keep on exposing the ACTUAL meaning of the "one matter" bit so that others won't fall into that trap.


just because it doesn't agree with them personally

The "one matter" claim, when taken literally, does not agree with common sense and empirical experience either. What single natural matter have you ever found that totally fits all the things the alchemists describe in their texts? Good luck finding one Countless seekers spent their whole lives looking for one anywhere in nature, yet found none. Could it maybe just be that this supposed "one matter" DOES NOT EXIST ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY MAKE IT YOURSELF??? Yes, yes, I very much think so!


as i said before you might of found no evidence or success in it
but you cant speak for every other alchemist out there who has considered this approach
i guess you'll try....

Reality is very "democratic"; it's the same for all. So I strongly doubt that someone somewhere has been able to find this supposed "one matter" somewhere in nature already made for his/her convenience.


what EGO, just because they haven't revealed it to you personally doesn't mean they didn't find success
the inability to accept new ideas that challenge the way we think is a sign of Hubris
despite what you may think you aren't all knowing

Show us one single example of these modern seekers working on "one matter only" who has finished the Stone and can provide a sample of it for testing purposes so that their claims can be verified.


Animals in the jungle eat clay from certain places to heal themselves
Thermal springs have long been reported to aid in healing
here's a link discussing both sides of Radon rich water

If this is your idea of what the Stone is, then we are not working at the same level of understanding here. I did not ask you to show me examples of natural substances that have some medicinal properties. Everyone knows that plenty of them exist in nature. I asked you for any natural substance that like the Stone can perform truly unusual things, like turning many times their own weight of a base metal into silver or gold. Where does nature produce any such thing???


Imitating it ? did i say that ? are you purposefully being dense or does it come naturally ?

It's what your own words imply. Or are you purposefully being dense or does it come naturally that you don't understand the implications of your own statements?


my point being with study of her operations we find what nature may be missing in order to be able to complete the work

Since there is no evidence at all that nature is somehow trying to make the Stone, I fail to see how can you possibly guess what it is supposedly "missing" in its alleged attempts. For this idea to have any validity you would have to demonstrate first that nature DOES try to make the Stone but for some reason keeps on failing. Good luck trying to prove that one.


trying to have a conversation with someone who will not accept any other view other than their own is fruitless
Good luck with whatever you think alchemy is...

Likewise.

Kibric
12-01-2017, 08:00 PM
No, just yours
sure. i'm the one that cant accept other views i dont personally agree with....

DOES NOT EXIST ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY MAKE IT YOURSELF??? Yes, yes, I very much think so!

It's what your own words imply. Or are you purposefully being dense or does it come naturally that you don't understand the implications of your own statements
notice how the word " studying " is not the word imitation, very basic reading comprehension

by studying

Show us one single example of these modern seekers working on "one matter only" who has finished the Stone and can provide a sample of it for testing purposes so that their claims can be verified
because no one has shown you personally, so far the assumption is that they haven't.
right....
go back to school to learn how to conduct a proper unbiased scientific investigation :(

I asked you for any natural substance that like the Stone can perform truly unusual things
what you actually asked

that something having any similar properties as the Stone has ever been found already made somewhere in a NATURAL setting
thermal springs have a long history of rejuvenation a property similar to that of the stone
wounded animals eating clay to heal faster than usual is a similar property of the stone
be more specific with the language you use, before you look down your nose

Likewise.
at least i can accept the possibility of different ideas/views that challenge my own

JDP
12-01-2017, 11:56 PM
sure. i'm the one that cant accept other views i dont personally agree with....

Your strange and faulty answers suggest otherwise.


notice how the word " studying " is not the word imitation, very basic reading comprehension

Since you admit that nature fails in making anything like the Stone, studying its methods to see how it fails requires employing them at some point or another. You are thus using nature as a "model". See what "imitation" means. Basic reading & comprehension.


because no one has shown you personally, so far the assumption is that they haven't.
right....
go back to school to learn how to conduct a proper unbiased scientific investigation :(

Follow your own advice and learn what "burden of proof" means. It is the people making the strange or dubious claims that need to provide the proof of their assertions, not those questioning their reality or validity.


what you actually asked

More of your reading & comprehension problems. I did not ask you for examples of mundane common-place things, like substances that can heal something or other. There's a ton of those.


thermal springs have a long history of rejuvenation a property similar to that of the stone
wounded animals eating clay to heal faster than usual is a similar property of the stone
be more specific with the language you use, before you look down your nose

Learn what "unusual" means, because none of what you are talking about qualifies as such. Medicines abound, both in nature as well as in human industry. But show me a substance that can change many times, or even just its own weight, of any metal into another one. Now THAT is unusual!


at least i can accept the possibility of different ideas/views that challenge my own

Judging by your answers, it seems like you have a bit of difficulty doing just that. I myself find it very hard to believe or accept things that have pretty much nothing to support them, until proven otherwise. But so far I don't see any evidence that there is "one matter" somewhere out there in nature that can perform all the things the alchemists describe in their texts.

Kibric
12-02-2017, 12:26 AM
Your strange and faulty answers suggest otherwise.
go on quote me, where do i outright dismiss other views i dont personally agree with ?


It is the people making the strange or dubious claims that need to provide the proof of their assertions
so show me this mixture of substances...? it can equally be considered a dubious claim
as you are arguing its definitely not one matter, what exactly can you show me apart from quotes ?
doesn't it swing both ways ?
if your so adamant that its not one matter you must have some hard evidence beyond quotes that proves it ?
or is it just based on your opinion ?


Learn what "unusual" means
what you 1st asked

that something having any similar properties as the Stone
no unusual in that sentence, reading comprehension

I did not ask you for examples of mundane common-place things, like substances that can heal something or other.
what you asked 1st is for similar properties of the stone
then you double back on yourself and say you meant Unusual things

I asked you for any natural substance that like the Stone can perform truly unusual things
again

be more specific with the language you use reading comprehension

judging by your answers, it seems like you have a bit of difficulty doing just that
you mean this pretty definitive answer i gave i few post back

i dont believe that a mixture of different substances will bring about success
but i wont dimiss the approach just because it doesnt agree with me

all i'm arguing is the possibility of one matter
your arguing its definitely not one matter

But so far I don't see any evidence that there is "one matter" somewhere out there in nature that can perform all the things the alchemists describe in their texts.
are you able provide the hard verifiable evidence (beyond quotes) that has lead you to the definitive conclusion its not one matter
but a mixture of substances instead

JDP
12-02-2017, 01:28 AM
go on quote me, where do i outright dismiss other views i dont personally agree with ?

The fact that you irrupted into the discussion claiming that the "trap" was "this" (and proceeded to quote some texts, most of which in fact did not quite say or imply what you wanted them to.)


so show me this mixture of substances...? it can equally be considered a dubious claim
as you are arguing its definitely not one matter, what exactly can you show me apart from quotes ?
doesn't it swing both ways ?

That's up for you and everyone else (me included) to find out. But you have yet to point out one single natural matter that can display all the curious reactions the alchemists describe in their books.


if your so adamant that its not one matter you must have some hard evidence beyond quotes that proves it ?
or is it just based on your opinion ?

There's only two choices here: either it's one matter only or it's more than one. The "one matter only" claim has virtually nothing to support it. Where is this marvelous single substance in nature that can display all those peculiar reactions the alchemists describe??? That only leaves the other possible option: the Stone is made from more than one matter. If you have tinkered with this approach, you should know by now that the possibilities are almost limitless, quite unlike the "one matter only" dead-end. There are so many possible combinations that a person might live his entire life making trials every single day of his life and not stumble upon the right combination. Plus I have already stumbled upon quite a bit of unusual byproducts and results with this approach. I have yet to see anything remotely unusual or very interesting by manipulating any single matter by itself. Most of what you can get from such an approach is already very well described in loads of "chymical" and chemical books.


what you 1st asked

Nope, that's not what I asked. You need to look at CONTEXT.


no unusual in that sentence, reading comprehension

It goes without saying that that's what was meant. Why would anyone request proof of mundane, common, run-of-the-mill things???


what you asked 1st is for similar properties of the stone

And it goes without saying I was talking about its UNUSUAL properties, that no other known substance possesses. Going by your "logic" any substance has similar properties as the Stone, even a piece of common rock on the streets. Hey, it has mass, it weighs, it reflects light, it can be powdered, just like the Stone! See, it has similar properties! Nope, you know very well that is not what was being asked. And neither was its reputed healing properties, which many other substances also possess to some degree or other. The most distinguishing property of the Stone, what separates it from the bulk of other matter, is that it can turn many times its own weight of base metals into silver and gold.


then you double back on yourself and say you meant Unusual things

I didn't "double back", I actually had to clarify for you what was plainly implied. CONTEXT.


again
reading comprehension

Which seems to be your problem.


you mean this pretty definitive answer i gave i few post back


all i'm arguing is the possibility of one matter
your arguing its definitely not one matter

Partly because empirical experience and common sense have made it just too difficult to envision this approach as a possibility, partly because of what many alchemists say.


i would love too see you provide the hard verifiable evidence (beyond quotes) that has lead you to the definitive conclusion its not one matter
but a mixture of substances instead

See one of the replies above. There's only two choices. And the single-matter one has all the looks of a dead-end. What other choice is left??? It is much more likely to be more than one matter involved in its production.

Kibric
12-02-2017, 02:10 AM
so to clarify
you have no definitive conclusion and proof that its one matter or many matters ?
just like the rest of us

you are arguing the possibility of many matters due to your own experience
which i wont reject
but i cant whole heartily reject the one matter approach either

i didn't want to clash with you about different approaches
i just felt completely dismissing one side of the argument (which ever side that may be) is a biased way of trying to solve this conundrum

i really do wish you the best in your experimentation :D

Florius Frammel
12-05-2017, 08:56 AM
As soon as you put one matter into a vessel and let it stand there for a while there is the possibility it will change espacially when the matter is organic or has organic dirtiness. Here bacteria and/or yeast come in play which is already found on mostly any substance found in nature. Would you then have one matter only too just disregarding bacteria and/or yeast?
You can think about putting a mineral ore into a vessel. By putting some heat/fire on it may start to combust and seperate/react to other matters. This would be the stage of "solve" concerning the texts. In putting the seperated matters together again in some order or state nature doesn't do by itself in washing/cleaning/further seperate them you would have the "coagula".

What I am trying to say is that it is not quite clear what each of you understands when you say "one matter".

For example you could start using cinnebar and get quicksilver and sulfur. You can clean the last mentioned elements and put them together to HgS. The product then is purer than the original ore (cinnebar). Maybe some definitions would be useful in advance to built a common ground to argue on. Maybe the definitions of chemical words like "Element", "Compound", "heterogenous mixture" and "homogenous mixture" could add some help in this discussion.

JDP
12-05-2017, 04:19 PM
As soon as you put one matter into a vessel and let it stand there for a while there is the possibility it will change espacially when the matter is organic or has organic dirtiness. Here bacteria and/or yeast come in play which is already found on mostly any substance found in nature. Would you then have one matter only too just disregarding bacteria and/or yeast?
You can think about putting a mineral ore into a vessel. By putting some heat/fire on it may start to combust and seperate/react to other matters. This would be the stage of "solve" concerning the texts. In putting the seperated matters together again in some order or state nature doesn't do by itself in washing/cleaning/further seperate them you would have the "coagula".

What I am trying to say is that it is not quite clear what each of you understands when you say "one matter".

For example you could start using cinnebar and get quicksilver and sulfur. You can clean the last mentioned elements and put them together to HgS. The product then is purer than the original ore (cinnebar). Maybe some definitions would be useful in advance to built a common ground to argue on. Maybe the definitions of chemical words like "Element", "Compound", "heterogenous mixture" and "homogenous mixture" could add some help in this discussion.

But none of these examples matches with the peculiar reactions described by the alchemists.

Also, simple minerals like cinnabar were well known to be compounds/mixtures of two or more separate substances, so not really "one matter" in the strict sense. Just like sea-water cannot also be truly considered "one matter" since it is very easy to "dissect" it into its constituents (plain water + mostly common salt + smaller amounts of some other salts; none of which the alchemists knew how to further "dissect" into simpler constituents; but we do.)

By "one matter" it should be understood one single substance, not artificially made by man by putting it together from several separate matters. But this is the very trap itself, since the "one matter" of alchemy is made just like that! Nature sure won't make it for you. It CANNOT do it, even if it wanted to. It lacks the appropriate tools and working conditions to do it. But man can do it, he has developed the necessary tools & working conditions.

Florius Frammel
12-05-2017, 04:43 PM
But none of these examples matches with the peculiar reactions described by the alchemists.

Also, simple minerals like cinnabar were well known to be compounds/mixtures of two or more separate substances, so not really "one matter" in the strict sense. Just like sea-water cannot also be truly considered "one matter" since it is very easy to "dissect" it into its constituents (plain water + mostly common salt + smaller amounts of some other salts; none of which the alchemists knew how to further "dissect" into simpler constituents; but we do.)

By "one matter" it should be understood one single substance, not artificially made by man by putting it together from several separate matters. But this is the very trap itself, since the "one matter" of alchemy is made just like that! Nature sure won't make it for you. It CANNOT do it, even if it wanted to. It lacks the appropriate tools and working conditions to do it. But man can do it, he has developed the necessary tools & working conditions.

Accepted!
Nevertheless you have got to start somewhere.
There seem to be only two possible ways in doing so.

1. If you use one matter you would seperate the parts of the mixture or compount to produce more matters.

2. If you use more matters you would combine them to get a/other compounds or mixtures.

I am quite sure you will have to do both of the above mentioned processes to do the stone.
Depending on where to start or at which state of the work you are operating, both viewpoints seem legit.

One example for the one matter hypothesis after this explanations.
Let's assume for the great work it is necessary to produce k2co3. Your one matter would then be wood you have to tread in a special way to obtain it. It could even be produced by nature itself.

On the other hand you would need to make further operations with that salt as we can possibly assume that it is neither the alcahest nor the stone.

Interpreting it this way the alchemist speak truly in this point and both of you are right.

Last not least it seems highly unlikely that you would obtain the stone in just watching some matter, hoping to turn into it. And I agree in this point with JDP. The one matter thing is only a part of the process that maybe can be interpretated in way like I did above.

JDP
12-05-2017, 04:57 PM
Accepted!
Nevertheless you have got to start somewhere.
There seem to be only two possible ways in doing so.

1. If you use one matter you would seperate the parts of the mixture or compount to produce more matters.

2. If you use more matters you would combine them to get a/other compounds or mixtures.

I am quite sure you will have to do both of the above mentioned processes to do the stone.
Depending on where to start or at which state of the work you are operating, both viewpoints seem legit.

One example for the one matter hypothesis after this explanations.
Let's assume for the great work it is necessary to produce k2co3. Your one matter would then be wood you have to tread in a special way to obtain it. It could even be produced by nature itself.

On the other hand you would need to make further operations with that salt as we can possibly assume that it is neither the alcahest nor the stone.

Interpreting it this way the alchemist speak truly in this point and both of you are right.

Last not least it seems highly unlikely that you would obtain the stone in just watching some matter, hoping to turn into it. And I agree in this point with JDP. The one matter thing is only a part of the process that maybe can be interpretated in way like I did above.

But such type of statements would in fact be deceitful in the end. Let us keep your example: so you take the wood, which can be considered "one matter only", burn it, you get flames, smoke & ashes. The flames & smoke "go away" and the ashes remain for you to manipulate. You can extract the "salt" in them with water. The water does not "remain" with the final product so we could exclude it from the substance count, though technically it is already more than "one matter" being employed, but we will let it "pass". But now what? What can you possibly do with this "salt" by itself? Pretty much nothing, except melting it by itself, or exposing it to the air by itself, and see "what happens". But neither option will produce anything remotely like the Stone. It is a total dead-end, and unless you start bringing in other substances into play it will continue to be nothing but a quick dead-end. So the "one matter" claim ultimately proves to be nothing but a false claim, maliciously conceived to force many unwary and inexperienced seekers into blind alleys. There is just no way that I can possibly envision the Stone being made from ANY single substance on this planet. It just is not going to happen. All of them will lead to the same dead-ends, and you won't be able to get out of those blind alleys unless you start bringing in other substances into play.

Florius Frammel
12-05-2017, 05:30 PM
But such type of statements would in fact be deceitful in the end. Let us keep your example: so you take the wood, which can be considered "one matter only", burn it, you get flames, smoke & ashes. The flames & smoke "go away" and the ashes remain for you to manipulate. You can extract the "salt" in them with water. The water does not "remain" with the final product so we could exclude it from the substance count, though technically it is already more than "one matter" being employed, but we will let it "pass". But now what? What can you possibly do with this "salt" by itself? Pretty much nothing, except melting it by itself, or exposing it to the air by itself, and see "what happens". But neither option will produce anything remotely like the Stone. It is a total dead-end, and unless you start bringing in other substances into play it will continue to be nothing but a quick dead-end. So the "one matter" claim ultimately proves to be nothing but a false claim, maliciously conceived to force many unwary and inexperienced seekers into blind alleys. There is just no way that I can possibly envision the Stone being made from ANY single substance on this planet. It just is not going to happen. All of them will lead to the same dead-ends, and you won't be able to get out of those blind alleys unless you start bringing in other substances into play.

But that's what I said, isn't it?

JDP
12-05-2017, 05:33 PM
But that's what I said, isn't it?

But then you concluded "Interpreting it this way the alchemist speak truly in this point". But in the end it boils down to a lie, because at some point or another more than "one matter" will have to come into play. The whole thing is designed to ultimately deceive what these alchemists envisioned as "unworthy" seekers.

Florius Frammel
12-05-2017, 05:55 PM
But then you concluded "Interpreting it this way the alchemist speak truly in this point". But in the end it boils down to a lie, because at some point or another more than "one matter" will have to come into play. The whole thing is designed to ultimately deceive what these alchemists envisioned as "unworthy" seekers.

On the other hand there are way more obvious lies in those texts. The alchemists though often tell us they speak the truth. The only anwser to solve this dillema is to interpret it in such kind of ways. Despite of that I totally agree with you.

Warmheart
12-05-2017, 06:09 PM
About one matter, chemical elements and modern science bizarre theories.

Can we consider an animal, a plant or... a man as one matter or, scientifically speaking, as simple, non-compound substance?

If we start calcinating living animal, plant or man, we will get scientifically pure matter, but will it be alive? We can get pure carbon, pure calcium etc., but if we start combining it back together, can we get an animal/plant/ man back? Once destroyed, can it be returned to life if not in better condition (remember Alchemy is about perfection) but at least as it was in life?..

As I see it, science deals with corpses, rotten corpses, it tortures everything, pure minerals, they are being put in violent fire, dissolved, evaporated, oh my God, what an unimaginable cruelty. Just imagine doing the same to some animal, would it like it? Doing it to a man is a crime, but it is ok to vivisect poor minerals?

I think that human science is based too much on death and destruction, while Alchemy is True Knowledge of Life, and they barely have anything in common.

Also it made me remember:
"Anything you do to this cat, I will do to you." (from "Alf")

Florius Frammel
12-05-2017, 09:36 PM
About one matter, chemical elements and modern science bizarre theories.

Can we consider an animal, a plant or... a man as one matter or, scientifically speaking, as simple, non-compound substance?

If we start calcinating living animal, plant or man, we will get scientifically pure matter, but will it be alive? We can get pure carbon, pure calcium etc., but if we start combining it back together, can we get an animal/plant/ man back? Once destroyed, can it be returned to life if not in better condition (remember Alchemy is about perfection) but at least as it was in life?..

As I see it, science deals with corpses, rotten corpses, it tortures everything, pure minerals, they are being put in violent fire, dissolved, evaporated, oh my God, what an unimaginable cruelty. Just imagine doing the same to some animal, would it like it? Doing it to a man is a crime, but it is ok to vivisect poor minerals?

I think that human science is based too much on death and destruction, while Alchemy is True Knowledge of Life, and they barely have anything in common.

Also it made me remember:
"Anything you do to this cat, I will do to you." (from "Alf")

I like Alf!

You know, I can't really get that "science dissing" in some alchemical discussions.
Even those around here with a science background believe at least in some qualities of alchemical, archemical or spagyrically produced substances. All of that is not common ground scientifically. Very few people here are so called science hardliners who would dismiss any alchemical research before it is even started because the official state of knowledge tells us it is impossible.
But some are rather curious and think that maybe in former times they were not as stupid as some scientists want us to tell. Most of the better scientists I know would never say that making the stone is impossible, they would rather say it is highly unlikely to do it. That is an important difference!
On the other hand no scientist can prove to you that your personal believe in god, the demiurg, holy spirit, collective conciousness or anything like that is false as this things cannot (yet?) be proven or refute scientifically.

To dismiss chemistry or physics when trying to find out anything about alchemy, archemy or spagyrics would be very foolish in my opinion. What are you afraid of? Just go ahead and mix together some materials of which you don't know any chemical properties without appropriate protection and try to stay alive!

If you are worrying about poor minerals then please don't start to research on the experiments people did in former times, especially what the alchemist(?) Gilles de Rais did. Some opinions about the past and alchemy seem to be pretty romantic. Just look at the data. People in former times never lived hand in hand with nature. They died. We are going to die too, but hopefully not so early and painful like most people did in the past. Why? Because of improvements made by scientists. Not all of those inventions are positive, that's true. But it is wrong and too easy to have a kind of black and white thinking on this topic.

Schmuldvich
12-06-2017, 02:20 AM
What is (any) matter made of?

What differentiates one matter from another?

And what is "matter", anyway?

^ Asking the real questions!

JDP
12-06-2017, 03:54 PM
^ Asking the real questions!

Which are not that difficult to answer:

1- What is (any) matter made of?

Does it really "matter"? It exists. Period.

2- What differentiates one matter from another?

Whatever it is that causes the differences, we can plainly perceive them with our senses. No one would confuse, say, a piece of iron, with, say, a piece of gold.

3- And what is "matter", anyway?

Anything that occupies space (i.e. has volume), has mass, and has weight (i.e. has gravity and is pulled by gravity)

z0 K
12-06-2017, 05:46 PM
But such type of statements would in fact be deceitful in the end. Let us keep your example: so you take the wood, which can be considered "one matter only", burn it, you get flames, smoke & ashes. The flames & smoke "go away" and the ashes remain for you to manipulate. You can extract the "salt" in them with water. The water does not "remain" with the final product so we could exclude it from the substance count, though technically it is already more than "one matter" being employed, but we will let it "pass". But now what? What can you possibly do with this "salt" by itself? Pretty much nothing, except melting it by itself, or exposing it to the air by itself, and see "what happens". But neither option will produce anything remotely like the Stone. It is a total dead-end, and unless you start bringing in other substances into play it will continue to be nothing but a quick dead-end. So the "one matter" claim ultimately proves to be nothing but a false claim, maliciously conceived to force many unwary and inexperienced seekers into blind alleys. There is just no way that I can possibly envision the Stone being made from ANY single substance on this planet. It just is not going to happen. All of them will lead to the same dead-ends, and you won't be able to get out of those blind alleys unless you start bringing in other substances into play.

The matter as I see it is that you do twist a tortured path for yourself around your alchemical word smithing concerning the starting matter. The matter here is the rut you are in because the adepts start with one matter and you do not understand why. Fortunately you here have decided to accept the example of "wood" as one matter to start with. That is a good choice.

In your example of working with wood as the initial matter: one thing: wood, you decide to discard essential elements or substances obtained from that one matter: wood. The smoke does not "go away" unless you let it escape which is the first sign of failure to follow the paradigm. As a result your prediction about the consequences of discarding primary elements obtained from the starting matter: one thing: wood is correct. See what happens... anything remotely like the Stone? nothing but a quick dead-end.


There is just no way that I can possibly envision the Stone being made from ANY single substance on this planet. It just is not going to happen. All of them will lead to the same dead-ends, and you won't be able to get out of those blind alleys unless you start bringing in other substances into play.


I challenge your assumption! You say it leads to the same dead ends. Now you will have to prove it as you have often demanded from others. You have accepted "wood" as a one-matter-only starting matter. Now you can demonstrate that your assumption is correct through actual experiments in your lab. Get wood. You are going to need quite a bit of it. You will need to dry distill it and collect every substance that evolved from that one thing: wood: the starting matter. You will need to document how you proceed of course in order to prove your point.

I don't believe you will do it because you have some doubts about it: you will prove yourself wrong. That is hard to take. On the other hand as soon as you prove yourself wrong you will then be able to see your way out of that blind alley.

Another thing, you said:
the "one matter" claim ultimately proves to be nothing but a false claim Where is your proof! All you put forth on this matter so far is your personal opinions: claims. Now, put up some proof from your laboratory. You are the one claiming it is false, prove it!

JDP
12-06-2017, 07:05 PM
The matter as I see it is that you do twist a tortured path for yourself around your alchemical word smithing concerning the starting matter. The matter here is the rut you are in because the adepts start with one matter and you do not understand why. Fortunately you here have decided to accept the example of "wood" as one matter to start with. That is a good choice.

In your example of working with wood as the initial matter: one thing: wood, you decide to discard essential elements or substances obtained from that one matter: wood. The smoke does not "go away" unless you let it escape which is the first sign of failure to follow the paradigm. As a result your prediction about the consequences of discarding primary elements obtained from the starting matter: one thing: wood is correct. See what happens... anything remotely like the Stone? nothing but a quick dead-end.



I challenge your assumption! You say it leads to the same dead ends. Now you will have to prove it as you have often demanded from others. You have accepted "wood" as a one-matter-only starting matter. Now you can demonstrate that your assumption is correct through actual experiments in your lab. Get wood. You are going to need quite a bit of it. You will need to dry distill it and collect every substance that evolved from that one thing: wood: the starting matter. You will need to document how you proceed of course in order to prove your point.

I don't believe you will do it because you have some doubts about it: you will prove yourself wrong. That is hard to take. On the other hand as soon as you prove yourself wrong you will then be able to see your way out of that blind alley.

Another thing, you said: Where is your proof! All you put forth on this matter so far is your personal opinions: claims. Now, put up some proof from your laboratory. You are the one claiming it is false, prove it!

Florius Frammel's example was about burning wood, not distilling it. But wood distillation has also been practiced for centuries, its byproducts, like empyreumatic oils and pyroligneous acid, are well known. How exactly have any of these substances ever produced the Stone by themselves, though? If it was so simple as distilling wood and then manipulating its byproducts to somehow "coagulate" them into a solid, dense, stable, fire-resistant but fusible mass that "penetrates" molten metals (none of which I think will ever happen by manipulating such byproducts alone), the Stone would have stopped being a mystery for most people a long time ago.

z0 K
12-06-2017, 08:55 PM
Florius Frammel's example was about burning wood, not distilling it. But wood distillation has also been practiced for centuries, its byproducts, like empyreumatic oils and pyroligneous acid, are well known. How exactly have any of these substances ever produced the Stone by themselves, though? If it was so simple as distilling wood and then manipulating its byproducts to somehow "coagulate" them into a solid, dense, stable, fire-resistant but fusible mass that "penetrates" molten metals (none of which I think will ever happen by manipulating such byproducts alone), the Stone would have stopped being a mystery for most people a long time ago.

You seem to be consumed by your premise running thin. You have often said that the adepts of alchemy work with their secret solvent and nothing can be accomplished alchemically without it. Yet you do everything you can imagine to keep yourself in the dark in defense of your premise: that the sages are liars about the one-matter-only paradigm.


But wood distillation has also been practiced for centuries, its byproducts, like empyreumatic oils and pyroligneous acid, are well known.

That's right it has been practiced for centuries by the alchemists before the chymists.


How exactly have any of these substances ever produced the Stone by themselves, though?

Never by themselves always together!


If it was so simple as distilling wood and then manipulating its byproducts to somehow "coagulate" them into a solid, dense, stable, fire-resistant but fusible mass that "penetrates" molten metals (none of which I think will ever happen by manipulating such byproducts alone), the Stone would have stopped being a mystery for most people a long time ago.

Have you ever distilled wood? Are you searching for the secret solvent? Or not...

Florius Frammel
12-06-2017, 09:30 PM
This suggestion of distilling wood sounds to me to be a way to produce a spagyrical plant stone, in which the commonly used Ethanol as the Mercury is replaced by Methanol. I can see that some alchemical symbols (especially the oak/tree of life and the source of liquid coming out of it) might fit to this hypothesis.
But the Stone or the Alkahest is often described as been feeded by Milk coming out of two breasts. Therefore in my opinion at this point of my research think that there is another source necessary. Maybe the symbol of the shell (CaCO3?) has anything to do with this second source. I am just speculating..

JDP
12-06-2017, 10:30 PM
You seem to be consumed by your premise running thin. You have often said that the adepts of alchemy work with their secret solvent and nothing can be accomplished alchemically without it. Yet you do everything you can imagine to keep yourself in the dark in defense of your premise: that the sages are liars about the one-matter-only paradigm.



That's right it has been practiced for centuries by the alchemists before the chymists.



Never by themselves always together!



Have you ever distilled wood? Are you searching for the secret solvent? Or not...

It's not "wearing thin", it's simply what common sense and logic point to. There is nothing "secret" about distilling wood. I repeat, you can find very clear descriptions of its byproducts going as far back as books published several centuries ago. So if you can make the Stone out of wood and its byproducts alone, how can it have escaped the attention of so many devoted seekers for such a long time??? And even if somehow you can prepare the secret solvent from wood alone (which I still have plenty of doubts you can), that still leaves you with the problem of the right metallic matter to be treated by it in order to get the "sulphur/soul/tincture" for making the Stone, and here you WILL have to bring in some other matter/s into play (thus immediately invalidating the "one matter" claim), because the metals that wood contains (in compound forms) in any large quantities are not ones that the alchemists knew about and worked with. They did not consider such things as the salts extracted from wood-ashes to be "metallic" but what they usually labelled as "middle minerals". Metallic potassium, sodium and calcium were totally unknown to the alchemists, and even if they had known them, they would most likely not have considered them as "true metals" and would have lumped them with the "semi-metals", "metalloids" or "bastard" metals (like zinc or antimony, for example.) What they considered as "metals" properly is what modern chemists call "transition metals", that is: things like lead, tin, gold, silver, iron, etc. Anything that deviated from the typical characteristics of the "true" metals, the alchemist would not accept as such, even if in outward appearance they resembled metals. Even zinc and mercury were generally rejected as "true" metals because they were not stable enough in the fire. So there is no way that such reactive metals as calcium, potassium and sodium, which react violently even with something as benign as water, would have been accepted as "true" metals by the alchemists. So they did NOT get the metallic "sulphur/soul/tincture" of the Stone from such things but from the substances they accepted as metals/metallic. And these are NOT contained in wood in any appreciable quantities.

z0 K
12-06-2017, 11:42 PM
This suggestion of distilling wood sounds to me to be a way to produce a spagyrical plant stone, in which the commonly used Ethanol as the Mercury is replaced by Methanol. I can see that some alchemical symbols (especially the oak/tree of life and the source of liquid coming out of it) might fit to this hypothesis.
But the Stone or the Alkahest is often described as been feeded by Milk coming out of two breasts. Therefore in my opinion at this point of my research think that there is another source necessary. Maybe the symbol of the shell (CaCO3?) has anything to do with this second source. I am just speculating..

The "milk" does come out of two breasts, but on one person only not two people each offering a tit. The person is often depicted as a hermaphrodite. This is symbolic of the laboratory operations once you have the Elements obtained from the starting matter which could be wood, but there are much better choices from that kingdom. Hollandus says if you want to open metals start with hot herbs. Ripley says something similar.

Research into the alchemical writings induce hosts of symbolic imagery into the mind. Enthusiasm is sparked. Speculation follows often leading to illusion and/or delusion until balance is achieved in the laboratory by separating facts from assumptions.

Andro
12-07-2017, 08:34 AM
The endless one matter/many matters debate is a dead end here.

There is no actual contradiction between the two, and this seems to be at the root of this circular argument.

The matter of the Stone is one, but nature does not (and can not) separate/extract/render it tangible by itself without the intervention of the Alchemist.

The extraction/separation/corporification of this one matter can be accomplished by and from multiple/variable auxiliary matters. But at the end of the day, "our" matter is still one.

The fact that this one matter can be rendered in more than one state (liquid, solid, etc) only adds to the confusion.

It can also be confusing for the potential researcher who works with a combination of matters without realizing that all those matters are in fact "carriers", but that it's actually the "passenger" who's achieving the alchemical objectives.

All matters are "carriers" of our alchemical "passenger", with various degrees of difficulty of extraction. Air and water are carriers. Animals and humans are carriers (urine, blood, semen, etc). Plants are carriers. Matters that humans or animals make from plants or metals/minerals (wine, honey, various alloys, etc) are carriers. Metals and minerals are carriers (sulfides, for example, are good candidates, but may be challenging to work with).

It may be useful to exit the loop of the one matter/many matters debate and look a little deeper.

black
12-07-2017, 09:04 AM
The endless one matter/many matters debate is a dead end here.

There is no actual contradiction between the two, and this seems to be at the root of this circular argument.

The matter of the Stone is one, but nature does not (and can not) separate/extract/render it tangible by itself without the intervention of the Alchemist.

The extraction/separation/corporification of this one matter can be accomplished by and from multiple/variable auxiliary matters. But at the end of the day, "our" matter is still one.

The fact that this one matter can be rendered in more than one state (liquid, solid, etc) only adds to the confusion.

It can also be confusing for the potential researcher who works with a combination of matters without realizing that all those matters are in fact "carriers", but that it's actually the "passenger" who's achieving the alchemical objectives.

All matters are "carriers" of our alchemical "passenger", with various degrees of difficulty of extraction. Air and water are carriers. Animals and humans are carriers (urine, blood, semen, etc). Plants are carriers. Matters that humans or animals make from plants or metals/minerals (wine, honey, various alloys, etc) are carriers. Metals and minerals are carriers (sulfides, for example, are good candidates, but may be challenging to work with).

It may be useful to exit the loop of the one matter/many matters debate and look a little deeper.

Thank you Andro

I like this style of thinking....it sits well with me.

This is the type of posts we need to see more of !!!

Clearing away the BS and getting to the core of what
needs to be thought about.

JDP
12-07-2017, 03:30 PM
The endless one matter/many matters debate is a dead end here.

There is no actual contradiction between the two, and this seems to be at the root of this circular argument.

The matter of the Stone is one, but nature does not (and can not) separate/extract/render it tangible by itself without the intervention of the Alchemist.

The extraction/separation/corporification of this one matter can be accomplished by and from multiple/variable auxiliary matters. But at the end of the day, "our" matter is still one.

The fact that this one matter can be rendered in more than one state (liquid, solid, etc) only adds to the confusion.

It can also be confusing for the potential researcher who works with a combination of matters without realizing that all those matters are in fact "carriers", but that it's actually the "passenger" who's achieving the alchemical objectives.

All matters are "carriers" of our alchemical "passenger", with various degrees of difficulty of extraction. Air and water are carriers. Animals and humans are carriers (urine, blood, semen, etc). Plants are carriers. Matters that humans or animals make from plants or metals/minerals (wine, honey, various alloys, etc) are carriers. Metals and minerals are carriers (sulfides, for example, are good candidates, but may be challenging to work with).

It may be useful to exit the loop of the one matter/many matters debate and look a little deeper.

It won't help because what you have stated above is nothing but pure SPECULATION. It's all based on the HUMONGOUS ASSUMPTION that this "one matter" common to all things, and capable of somehow being produced from all things, supposedly exists. In fact, this UNPROVEN ASSUMPTION will have the opposite effect, it will simply obfuscate the whole issue and make many people continue to plunge into blind alleys by thinking that reaching success by manipulating ANY substance is possible. History and empirical evidence point to quite the contrary to such an illusion.

Kiorionis
12-07-2017, 03:49 PM
It won't help because what you have stated above is nothing but pure SPECULATION. It's all based on the HUMONGOUS ASSUMPTION that this "one matter" common to all things, and capable of somehow being produced from all things, supposedly exists. In fact, this UNPROVEN ASSUMPTION will have the opposite effect, it will simply obfuscate the whole issue and make many people continue to plunge into blind alleys by thinking that reaching success by manipulating ANY substance is possible. History and empirical evidence point to quite the contrary to such an illusion.

Speculation and assumption? I disagree:

http://i.imgur.com/MbY5Jxu.jpg

Andro
12-07-2017, 05:31 PM
I said what I had to say. It is neither assumption nor speculation.

Even if "empirical evidence" may appear to show the contrary, this so-called "evidence" fails to account for the "passenger".

Some "combinations" of various matters can indeed be somewhat more conductive to rendering this "passenger" alchemically active.

However, the "scientifically empirical mind" will see nothing more than the particular combinations of those matters as being responsible for the alchemical effect - but this is not the case.

There's no going anywhere in Alchemy without accounting for the "passenger". It is present even in various "low R.O.I. particulars", no matter what matters enter into the composition of any given "low R.O.I. particular". It's the activation of the "alchemical passenger" that ALL operations, from the least "profitable" particulars and all the way to the Stone, have in common.

What I needed proof for, I have already proven for myself. It's not my job to prove anything to anyone else.

Also, I will not get sucked into any sort of dead-end circular debates.

If you are inspired by what I wrote, good for you.

If you feel it's all assumptions/unproven/baloney/etc - good for you as well.

Up to the readers to discern what makes alchemical (not common) sense to them.