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Quarrox
01-17-2017, 07:28 PM
Hi,

what is the difference between the both or how are they related? I often read that hermeticism belongs to gnosticism (or the other way around), and that the one is a subsection of the other. I know that the gnosticism has various branches, like the Rosicrucians for example. But Hermeticism??


Gnosticism:

-Has a transcendent god
-Has a fake creator god, named Demiurge, it created the physical universe
-The Demiurge has servants, called Archons, who are the connection joints between the humans and the Demiurge
-Gnosticism is partly connected to Christianity (???)

Hermeticism:

-No creator god, just the one and only
-God aka "the All" is beyond comprehension
-Apparently one of the oldest philosophies and cradle of all (?) religions
-The universe(s) is/are a mental dream of the All, or rather a divine meditation and hence outside of the "All".

I wrote down a lot of half knowledge and some speculation. I try to learn and understand how Gnosticism and Hermeticism are connected or rather the opposite, separated? Corrections of my statements and further explanations are highly welcomed.

Thanks!

Andro
01-17-2017, 07:45 PM
I think you are indeed proposing the 'right' questions...

I suppose this thread could turn into a very interesting discussion, if it picks up :)

Quarrox
01-17-2017, 07:52 PM
Andro, thanks. Hopefully! I tried to find direct comparisons of the two in the internet, so far without success.

Awani
01-17-2017, 08:14 PM
I would say that they are equal and seperate as well. Gnosticism is, IMO, true Christianity. The Demiurge you mention is the God of the old testament.

Hermeticism is more of a philosophical and esoteric concept from the works of "hermes". It is hermeticism that, in a sense, has moved laboratory alchemy into the realm of spiritual alchemy.

Gnosticism is a modern word and refer to the early followers of Jesus.

Also if a God is not a creator it is not a God. ;)

:cool:

Awani
01-17-2017, 08:23 PM
I would also not say Rosicrucianism is a branch of Gnosticism, rather a branch of Hermeticism.

Gnosticism is stand-alone origin-Christianity.

:cool:

Quarrox
01-17-2017, 08:27 PM
I would say that they are equal and separate as well. Gnosticism is, IMO, true Christianity.

Jehovah? A god that punishes and demands worshipping? So why does the transcendent God "allow" the Demiurge to act like it desires? I think the point in Gnosticism is becoming enlightened and aware of the true nature of God and ourselves. What role does the Demiurge play in this scenario? The Demiurge must be a creation of the supreme God, so it must have a purpose, right?

I like your summary.

Awani
01-17-2017, 08:28 PM
The Demiurge is Satan. Satan is a fallen angel. Archetypically speaking that is.

You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

:cool:

Quarrox
01-17-2017, 08:48 PM
And now a lot more makes sense :)

Thank you Dev, i must rest and think about it for a while. Thumbs up!

Awani
01-17-2017, 08:51 PM
No problem. But keep in mind that this is my view. The true truth can only come from within... I don't claim authority in these matters, only authorship of my own views.

:cool:

Quarrox
01-17-2017, 09:28 PM
Yes, sure. Don't worry, it is just another puzzle piece to think about, to contemplate. Perhaps i will reject the puzzle piece again and try to find one that fits better. :-)

Kiorionis
01-18-2017, 02:57 PM
You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

I agree, based on my experiences. And where Love teaches sympathy, unity and compassion (and etc.), Hate teaches equally well the virtues of strength, resilience and fortitude (and etc.).

Amon
01-18-2017, 03:30 PM
The following comes from Walter Russell's "The Universal One"

https://s27.postimg.org/y14q6cyv7/CHAPTER_I.png

I believe it completely agrees with hermeticism and the God of Christianity. Looking at the universe that way blew up my mind. To think that we don't exist apart, that there are not many, but ONE. That everything is a different manifestation of the One, that "comes" into existance as a result of the motion of the One substance. Therefore all things are One and all return to One.

The All of Hermeticism is the One from which all springs forth. And that One is not apart from the physical universe. It IS the universe

Andro
01-18-2017, 05:19 PM
Also if a God is not a creator it is not a God. ;)

No one creates anything. Everything already exists, even if only in potential.

Whoever poses as 'creator(s)' - all they do is download and 'fix' their own version of reality into the (perceived as fixed) realm of the left-brained realm of the 'White Sun'.

The 'Black Sun' is the sub/super-conscious of all possibilities/probabilities, while the 'White Sun' is the left-brain conscious intent and reality-fixing agent.

If (for example) we contemplate the classical Yin-Yang symbol beyond the exoteric meaning traditionally associated with it, we may glimpse into some much deeper mysteries...

A fully active, internalized and synchronized feedback loop between the Black Sun and the White Sun (which may be loosely compared to 'Mercury' and 'Sulfur', respectively) would allow us the same 'reality download access' as those who pose as 'creator gods'.

The 'dividing' area inside the Yin-Yang symbol is representative of the 'veil' or 'dual mirror' between the realm of UN-manifest and manifest probabilities. The double-faced figure of Janus is an allegory for having 'eyes' in both wolds.

There is no 'creator god'.

Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.

I personally find the Walter Russel quote above to be quite accurate in many ways, as much as anything can be 'accurate' in a reality that is marketed and implanted into us as 'fixed', but is in fact far from being so.

What is described in Gnosticism as 'Archons' can be seen as 'beings' (or constructs) who can 'download' their own reality models from 'the other side of the looking glass' and subsequently market them to us as 'this is the way it is'. Marketing propaganda is accomplished via two main methods: Seduction and Intimidation. These 'Archons' also love to 'pose' as 'creators', but this is not the case. One could say they may have better developed 'download access' abilities through the 'looking glass', from where already exiting potential realities are downloaded and marketed as 'Creation'.

http://www.good-luck-gifts.com/images/stories/Yin_Yang_symbol_of_order.jpg



http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/images/janus-2.jpg

Awani
01-18-2017, 05:54 PM
No one creates anything. Everything already exists, even if only in potential. Whoever poses as 'creator(s)' - all they do is download and 'fix' their own version of reality into the (perceived as fixed) realm of the left-brained realm of the 'White Sun'. There is no 'creator god'.

You are correct if you are speaking about "lower" level aspects of the Mystical Algorithm of the Divine. If you are speaking about "God" then I disagree.

But the Origin/Source... the Uncreated Self-generating Divine Light Mystery... aka God... is a Creator. Anything within/without of this "God" falls under the views you just stated... but none of these things would exist at all if the Source had not "created" them.

The Kogi people have this creation myth, which is one of the best I have ever come across and fits perfectly all the theories/ideas and direct experiences I have had:


In the beginning there was nothing. All was darkness. There was nothing at all. Only the mother. She was Aluna. She was pure thought. Without form. She began to think. The mother conceived the world in the darkness. She conceived us as ideas. As we think out a house before we begin to make it real. She spun the thread. Spinning us all in the story. Creating us in thought. And then came the light. And the world was real. - source (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4189-Aluna)

Notice that the "nothing" is not nothing, because Aluna/God was there. Meaning "nothing" + "god" is the same thing... or there would be just nothing.

The Big Bang is a creation.

If everything inside this creation is already created, even all time lines and pasts and futures... sure fine... but the source is creation.

The Macrocosm of God is Creation... and that is why the highest forms of endeavours humans can take up is the Microcosmic form of Creation: shamanism, art, alchemy, music, literature, films, love (babies)...

It is not a trap. It is a mirror of the "man" upstairs.

So yes by performing Sacred Art (creation) we are dowloading and fixing some version of reality... but any Sacred Art of the highest order achieves transcendence for the practitioner (for the creator) regardless if it is a download or an actual creation. Complete passivity will lead nowhere. The silent monk who does nothing has validity, but we must not be fooled that such a monk does "nothing"... that he is trying to avoid any form of creation. Far from it.

To be able to achieve complete unity with the mind of God, with the unknown nothingness, is a Creation of achieving "true" perception and ultimately a liberation from the Creation in the first place.

I don't see a dualism in this. Uncreated vs. Created.

Rather I see everything as Created and yet everything as Uncreated, since - like the song goes... "row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily merrily... life is but a dream".

IMHO.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/bb9e77fc9465fafc6642783b60967334_zpsicgrjpjd.jpg


...designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality...

Which can also includes your own views (and my own) as none is "safe" from such models/designs (lack of hierarchy is a sort of hierarchy of one/none)... so beware. ;)

:cool:

Andro
01-18-2017, 06:21 PM
IF by 'creation' you mean the 'fixing' of certain variations from the UN-Created infinite realm of probabilities, then the disagreement is merely a semantic issue.

But the realm of the 'Black Sun' (call it 'Aluna', if you will) was/is never created and is beyond ALL our concepts of space & time. It doesn't 'create' either, there is nothing to be created that doesn't already exist in the so-called 'Dark Dimension' (so named as well as allegorically represented in the movie 'Doctor Strange', where for some weird reason it is portrayed as 'evil')

In term of infinite possibilities/probabilities, there is no 'nothing'. Still, perceived reality is merely a 'collapse of the wave function' or a 'collapse of a set of probabilities into a perceived state of 'fixation'. Or, the rendering of a 'wave' into a 'particle' (like in the double slit experiment).

Becoming 'Whole' or 'Liberated' involves (the way I see it) the internal unification of the 2 realms (Above & Below, Left and Right, conscious and sub/super-conscious - return to be KNOWN - not 'perceived' - as 'One Thing'). Hemispheric Synchronization, in more 'modern' terms. The 'Janus' hermaphrodite become androgynous. The two Suns become known as ONE.

What choices are available when this is accomplished - I don't gno.

Awani
01-18-2017, 06:46 PM
To know is a perception, because even in the knowing of the highest order - when there is no doubt - there will always be the unknown possibility.

Becoming Whole = Creation

I diasagree that the Black Sun, as you call it, does not create. Frankly it is the opposite. It does nothing but create. To be fair when something acts in a perpetual manner it might seem static to the outsider.

If "it" did not create we would not have this conversation.

So to a degree there might be some semantic issue, but also there seems to be a sort of difference in outlook. IMO.

All I have stated thus far I know deeply, but I do not claim to "know". That would be silly. ;)

:cool:

Andro
01-18-2017, 07:21 PM
All I have stated thus far I know deeply, but I do not claim to "know".

The 'Looking Glass' or 'Dual Mirror' I've mentioned above has this interesting quality of reflecting our convictions back at us, even if they contradict each other :)

Now, to take these concepts a bit further, on our physical plane, this 'Looking Glass' or 'Veil' or 'Dual Mirror' (or Separator (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2002-The-Separator)) can be (metaphorically or not) associated with the surface/water level.

From the preface of Nietzsche's 'The Gay Science':

Where you stand, there dig deep!
Below you lies the well!
Let obscurantists wail and weep:
"Below is always - hell!"

The 'Light of the 'Black Sun' (limitless, UN-specified potential) rises from (below) Earth -> to (above) Heaven ('White Sun'/Left Brain/fixation/collapse of probability via Conscious Intent) and thus gathers the 'powers' of both 'Above' and 'Below', to accomplish the 'Miracle of One Thing'.

Quarrox
01-18-2017, 07:22 PM
The Demiurge is Satan. Satan is a fallen angel. Archetypically speaking that is.
:cool:
The gnostic concept of the Demiurge aka Satan is a negative one, correct? Why is this Demiurge allowed to operate, what is the point? Wouldn't that make the gnostic transcendent God a positive one and hence subordinate it to the dualistic concept? And if it wouldn't make God a positive one, what is still the point?
In the hermetic philosophy, as far as i know, the All is untouched of any of the 7 hermetic laws (Kybalion), it is the law above the laws.




You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

:cool:
That makes a lot of sense to me. But would the neutral balance between love and hate not be the ideal state? Both are the same thing, just very polar, on the opposite end of the scale. If you love a lot, you can hate a lot too. If you can be very euphoric, you can be very melancholic too, etc. I think a "neutral" level of all conditions and states, is a form of (auto)control. For me, love is a desirable state, but the right thing perhaps might be a neutral state, free of emotions, the perfect balance.


The following comes from Walter Russell's "The Universal One"

https://s27.postimg.org/y14q6cyv7/CHAPTER_I.png

I believe it completely agrees with hermeticism and the God of Christianity. Looking at the universe that way blew up my mind. To think that we don't exist apart, that there are not many, but ONE. That everything is a different manifestation of the One, that "comes" into existence as a result of the motion of the One substance. Therefore all things are One and all return to One.

The All of Hermeticism is the One from which all springs forth. And that One is not apart from the physical universe. It IS the universe

It says that "God is the universe. God is not one and the universe another". So this is, in my interpretation, a pantheistic view. God is in everything that is. But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All. If i send out a thought, it is sent away. I am not my thought, i am the father of my thought. Tho, possible that it's true, but then it would contradict to the hermetic idea IMHO.
Also, which kind of universe is meant? The physical one, the mental one, the spiritual one or all of them?
The Kybalion for example talks about 3 different planes (chapter VIII, planes of correspondence).
And do we carry the often mentioned divine spark in us? Is the spark on a long journey to finally reunite with the all?
Sorry for the many questions.




Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.

I personally find the Walter Russel quote above to be quite accurate in many ways, as much as anything can be 'accurate' in a reality that is marketed and implanted into us as 'fixed', but is in fact far from being so.


Could you give some examples of the fallacies and avoidance of the most significant questions? I remember i had some doubts about some teachings, it's a shame i don't remember them at the moment, i should start making notes. In summary it had pretty much "Aha"-effects for me. This is my first book. Could you give advices for other, maybe "better" books to read and learn?

Amon
01-18-2017, 09:26 PM
It says that "God is the universe. God is not one and the universe another". So this is, in my interpretation, a pantheistic view. God is in everything that is. But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All. If i send out a thought, it is sent away. I am not my thought, i am the father of my thought. Tho, possible that it's true, but then it would contradict to the hermetic idea IMHO.
Also, which kind of universe is meant? The physical one, the mental one, the spiritual one or all of them?
The Kybalion for example talks about 3 different planes (chapter VIII, planes of correspondence).
And do we carry the often mentioned divine spark in us? Is the spark on a long journey to finally reunite with the all?
Sorry for the many questions.


My understanding is that there is One Mind and One Essence, and this One Essence by "moving" generates to "illusion" of duality, then of multiplicity and then of separation. Thats the easiest way i can put it. Its topics like this when you realize how restraining human language is. Maybe because we are trying to describe things of which we know nothing similar or close in qualities. Its like trying to explain colors to a blind by birth. The 3 universes of the Kybalion all exist simultanously and are groups that contain the primordial essence vibrating in certain frequencies (like the Infrared group is ONE group that contains MANY wavelengths etc.). The physical universe is the one where what we call "physical" is primordial essence vibrating at another group of vibrations. In short, all the so called "different" universes are the effect of One substance vibrating and the "illusion" of them being different is only due to how our mind operates. Its like saying snow, ice,water and steam are different. They are the same thing in different vibratory states. As for the last question, i do believe it is. I don't know what God's goal is by doing all this or if there even is any (as the gospel's say "the Lord's will is unkown") and i also do not believe that God wants you to eternally "burn" in hell. If i recall correctly, hell is actually called "purgatory" which in a sense could mean to wash ignorance off of yourself and show you the true nature of things. The only thing i see keeping you in "hell" is your own self.

Awani
01-18-2017, 10:42 PM
This is how I see it...


Why is this Demiurge allowed to operate, what is the point?

Everything is a lesson, and "God" is the teacher.



That makes a lot of sense to me. But would the neutral balance between love and hate not be the ideal state? Both are the same thing, just very polar, on the opposite end of the scale.

I disagree. Your statement only makes sense to me if you are talking about "like" and "hate". Love, at least in the sense I see it, is a totally different affair... the English language has raped the word "love"... it is even used in sentences like "I Love Candy"... in other languages this word is - for the most part - only used in the most special cases such as "I Love You".


But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All.

Are you separated from what you think? Are you the body or the mind or the spirit?


Could you give advices for other, maybe "better" books to read and learn?

Early on in my own studies these books helped me a lot. I have not read them in years so I don't know how I would feel about them now... but when I was a novice, of sorts, in this area of study then these are a few of the books that aided me a great deal:


The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall

Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norvill

Gnostic Philosophy by Tobias Churton

Alchemy Recovered and Restored by Archibald Cockren

The Golden Chain of Homer


:cool:

Quarrox
01-18-2017, 10:57 PM
@Andro + @Dev:

Many thanks for your statements, its something to think about again. And also for the book recommendations!

zoas23
01-19-2017, 03:16 AM
Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.


The Kybalion is an early XX century text (I think you know it, but there's always a lot of confusion and people thinking that it's 2000 years old) and is not part of the "classical" Hermetic literature...

... and it's really a bad book.

Awani
01-19-2017, 03:29 AM
@Andro + @Dev:

Many thanks for your statements, its something to think about again. And also for the book recommendations!

:)

Check out this thread: The Kybalion The 7 Hermetic-Principles (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3915-The-Kybalion-The-7-Hermetic-Principles)


...and it's really a bad book.

Why?

:cool:

Schmuldvich
01-19-2017, 06:26 AM
Very cool to see someone posting some Walter Russell. Certainly a man more people need to study, especially those who study the esoteric arts. Nice post, Amon! Have you had the chance to read any of his other works?

Regarding Gnosticism, these are some of my favorite Gnostic texts, being that I can see the Alchemy parallel with these:



The Reality Of The Rulers

On the Origin Of The World

The Treatise On The Resurrection

Eugnostos The Blessed

Allogenes

The Paraphrase Of Shem

Melchizedek

The Thought Of Norea

The Prayer Of Thanksgiving

A Valentinian Exposition

Authoritative Teaching

The Revelation Of Adam

The Three Steles Of Seth

Three Forms Of First Thought

The Sophia Of Jesus Christ

The Second Treatise Of The Great Seth

The Testimony Of Truth

The Gospel Of Truth

The Teachings Of Silvanus



...As far as Hermeticism goes, everyone needs to read "The Divine Pymander" if they have not.

zoas23
01-19-2017, 08:35 AM
:)

Check out this thread: The Kybalion The 7 Hermetic-Principles (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3915-The-Kybalion-The-7-Hermetic-Principles)



Why?

:cool:

I can't say it better than Andro:


Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...)

He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.

The book has SOME interesting concepts, but the ONLY interesting ones are quite "universal" and you can find them almost everywhere (i.e, "The Law of Polarity"... "The Law of Correspondences"... these ideas, well, who has NOT read them a thousand times in previous books?).

I completely agree with the theory that the author is Atkinson (or maybe Atkinson & Foster Case)... and it is very "dated" and influenced by some New Agey ideas of the time (the least interesting side of Theosophy, the Western "orientalism" that was popular at the time, some nuances of Kardec's spiritism, some decadent Mesmerism... a lot of fin de siècle puritanism).

I know it is the "Bible of Alchemy" for a lot of persons... I simply don't see much value in it.

ArcherSage
01-19-2017, 12:23 PM
The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.

Andro
01-19-2017, 12:43 PM
The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.

I some Gnostic materials, the 'Christ' office is divided between 'Christ Jesus' (White Sun) and 'Christ Lucifer' (Black Sun). In the more anthropomorphized models, The 'White Sun Christ' is considered 'male' and the 'Black Sun Christ' is considered 'female' (as a sort of 'womb' containing the realm of infinite and UN-Specified potential/probability).

'Satan' is a different Archetype altogether, more comparable to the Gnostic 'Demiurge' (who is merely posing as 'creator', as there is no such thing as 'creator', since everything ALREADY 'is', outside the realm of space/time perception), the same 'Demiurge' who actually fixes/collapses probabilities (via 'White Solar' Intent) and according to its own centralized 'plans', as opposed to every one being able (and having the CONSCIOUSLY ACCESSSIBLE choice) to fix/collapse their own version(s)/variations from the Ocean of Possibilities that exists as potential on the 'other side of the 'Veil'.

Awani
01-19-2017, 04:17 PM
I know it is the "Bible of Alchemy" for a lot of persons... I simply don't see much value in it.

It is not an important book for me really - so I don't care to defend it, however if you and Andro share the same reasons why it is "not good" then there are some things of those reasons that I don't agree with at all. The reasons you give bug me, not that they discredit the Kybalion (could not care less), but the reasons on their own makes no sense.


There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...).

I personally love childish simpicity. There is nothing worse than the Phd vomit of academia.

To discount something using the term logical fallacy is a logical fallacy... but the meaning of the term basically - if one has a certain outlook on reality - can be applied to any statement... EVERYTHING can be viewed as a logical fallacy. In social media alt-right and SJW (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4927-Social-Justice-Warriors) and those people usually call each other out using this term. For me personally it is nothing more than a slogan used by those that have no deep thinking at all, and are simply trying to discredit any argument with a fancy term that is stupid to begin with. Now I know neither of you fall in these categories, just wanted to point out my feeling on that term.

EVERYTHING is based on the Author... so that is not a reason either in my opinion.

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." - Herbert Spencer

Considering the current state of affairs in the world looks like a job well done. LOL.


The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.

Gnostics viewed the God in the Old Testament as the Demiurge. To explain this term to normal Christians, novices and such I would use the name Satan, to simplify. Doesn't really matter if there was or was not a Satan. It's all allegory regardless and an allegory must be adaptable.

The Serpent was the good guy. ;) Like Jesus said much later: "Be wise as Serpents."

:cool:

Quarrox
01-19-2017, 05:10 PM
I think the Kybalion is a nice lecture for Neophytes like me. It offers some simple, basic summaries, something that breaks down extremely complex factors into a easy to digest appetizer. I think it serves well as a first step on the staircase to higher spheres of awareness.

Awani
01-19-2017, 05:12 PM
Indeed you got to start somewhere. I started with Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade almost 30 years ago... LOL.

:cool:

Schmuldvich
01-19-2017, 05:32 PM
I think the Kybalion is a nice lecture for Neophytes like me. It offers some simple, basic summaries, something that breaks down extremely complex factors into a easy to digest appetizer. I think it serves well as a first step on the staircase to higher spheres of awareness.


Check out "The Divine Pymander"...Worth reading in its entirety imo, though if you do not have the time, just reading a chapter or two at random will further your knowledge and understanding of Hermeticism and Alchemy. Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes out of your day. Very easy reading, densely packed with applicable value. Look into it!

Quarrox
01-19-2017, 06:53 PM
@Dev :D

@Schmuldvich, thanks a lot. I will study it with interest!

Amon
01-19-2017, 10:21 PM
Very cool to see someone posting some Walter Russell. Certainly a man more people need to study, especially those who study the esoteric arts. Nice post, Amon! Have you had the chance to read any of his other works?


Not yet, i haven't even finished the Universal One to be honest. But its on my to-do list after i am done with university examinations (which i feel i am gonna fail at) followed by the writings of Leedskalnin. If the nature of things is really as simple as the old sciences preach, and the theories of Leedskalnin and Russell stand correct, then it will be of huge benefit in many areas of our lives.

ArcherSage
01-20-2017, 04:21 PM
I did not mean to affiliate Lucifer with Satan, I was using the term loosely as it pertains to Christianity today. I was simply stating that the Demiurge never fell from grace, it was created by an entity from the higher planes and was trapped in the lower realms. And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.

Awani
01-20-2017, 05:07 PM
And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.

Same mental issue most humans have. :)

:cool:

Quarrox
01-20-2017, 06:35 PM
And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.

So in your opinion, the Demiurge is Yahweh, the God in judaism?

Awani
01-20-2017, 10:26 PM
Here are some related quotes from the book Gnostic Philosophy - From Ancient Persia to Modern Times by Tobias Churton (that I recommend if you want to get a good overall insight into Gnosticism):

"Insofar as the Demiurge claimed to be the highest God, then the Demiurge, the awful creator of the material universe, was for Gnostics a false god. The Gnostic had seen through his deceptive handiwork, and, free of it by virtue of knowledge [gnosis i.e. gnosticism], could "look down" on it. Enemies of the Gnostics regarded this posture as one of insufferable arrogance. The radical Gnostic could reply that such a position was as nothing compared to the supreme destructiveness and arrogating offence of the Demiurge - himself the blind god who knows no higher than himself."

"Reckoning the Father in heaven preached by Jesus to be superior in character to the God of much of the Hebrew Bible [old testament], it was natural for Gnostics to indentify any lesser conception of the highest God with the Demiurge, who had, they believed, blinded the Jewish people to the central gnosis."

"...only spirit is ultimately real. Time and space (the world of the Demiurge) are not absolutes; they are conditions of perception."

:cool:

Andro
01-20-2017, 11:19 PM
The 'Looking Glass' or 'Dual Mirror' I've mentioned above has this interesting quality of reflecting our convictions back at us, even if they contradict each other.

See text compilation in the image below.

What Russel refers to as (Un-Created) 'Sub-Stance' is what another author (Vadim Zeland) is referring to as 'The Space of Variants'.

What we mistakenly regard as 'creation' (i.e. 'ex nihil') is merely an "integration into continuity of what already exists in sub-stance" (Russel) or a 'Fixation' or 'realization' of certain scrips from the 'Space of Variants' (Zeland).

The 'Black Sun' is comparable to the 'cloud' (where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist in an UN-specified, UN-determined state, outside time and space), and the 'White Sun' is comparable to the fixing/rendering Agency, the 'Interface' that subjectively 'fixes' perception within 'space' and time' coordinates. Again, this 'pair' is loosely comparable to Mercury and Sulfur in Practical Alchemy.

Achieving perfect Sync/Unity between the 'White Sun' Mind and the 'Black Sun' Substance is what can theoretically allow us abilities such as are displayed in the movie Dark City ('tuning') or Inception.

Concepts such as The 'Veil' ('The Veil of Isis'), 'The Separator' or 'The Dual Mirror' (Alice Through the Looking Glass and YES, EVEN THE FIRST HARRY POTTER MOVIE! - the mirror scene) have been mimicked via substitute/surrogate surfaces such as Canvas (painting), Silver Screen (cinema), television, and more recently in our fascination with the screens of our computers, tablets, 'smart'-phones, VR interfaces, etc... Basically simulacrums of rendering various 'realities' from a database 'somewhere'.

http://liberatelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Aspects-of-Reality.jpg

PS: It has been suggested that I present those concepts again, like I would explain them 'to idiots'.

This has been my attempt to do so, although I sincerely doubt there are any idiots hanging out here :)

Schmuldvich
01-20-2017, 11:40 PM
See text compilation in the image below.

What Russel refers to as (Un-Created) 'Sub-Stance' is what another author (Vadim Zeland) is referring to as 'The Space of Variants'.

What we mistakenly regard as 'creation' (i.e. 'ex nihil') is merely an "integration into continuity of what already exists in sub-stance" (Russel) or a 'Fixation' or 'realization' of certain scrips from the 'Space of Variants' (Zeland).

The 'Black Sun' is comparable to the 'cloud' (where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist in an UN-specified, UN-determined state, outside time and space), and the 'White Sun' is comparable to the fixing/rendering Agency, the 'Interface' or that subjectively 'fixes' perception in 'space' and time' coordinates. Again, this 'pair' is loosely comparable to Mercury and Sulfur in Practical Alchemy.

Achieving perfect Sync/Unity between the 'White Sun' Mind and the 'Black Sun' Substance is what can theoretically allow us abilities such as are displayed in the movie Dark City ('tuning') or Inception.

Concepts such as The 'Veil' ('The Veil of Isis'), 'The Separator' or 'The Dual Mirror' (Alice Through the Looking Glass and YES, EVEN THE FIRST HARRY POTTER MOVIE! - the mirror scene) have been mimicked via substitute/surrogate surfaces such as Canvas (painting), Silver Screen (cinema), television, and more recently in our fascination with the screens of our computers, tablets, 'smart'-phones, VR interfaces, etc... Basically simulacrums of rendering various 'realities' from a database 'somewhere'.

http://liberatelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Aspects-of-Reality.jpg

PS: It has been suggested that I present those concepts again, like I would explain them 'to idiots'.

This has been my attempt to do so, although I sincerely doubt there are any idiots hanging out here :)

Really great post! Thank you! Very rarely do I agree with "unprovable" concepts such as those presented, but I find myself inwardly and outwardly agreeing with the majority of what you just posted. I appreciate you sharing, and I'm sure many others do as well... :)

Awani
01-21-2017, 01:26 AM
It has been suggested that I present those concepts again.

Yes, ok if I understand you correctly then that is kind of what I said earlier.


The Macrocosm of God is Creation... and that is why the highest forms of endeavours humans can take up is the Microcosmic form of Creation: shamanism, art, alchemy, music, literature, films, love (babies)...

To me this rendering = creation. I don't see it as a download... because some downloads cannot be made until you "create"/build a bridge (which makes the "download" possible). And as for "god", this cloud you speak of - where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist - is in my view a highly creative space... or at least a sandbox. So God is a Creator. IMO. And if the word "creator" is confusing then maybe Producer is better. Executive Producer.

So I guess our problem is semantics yet again.

:cool:

elixirmixer
01-21-2017, 07:02 AM
If Hermeticism and Gnosticism got in a fight, who would win? :cool:

See Reason for edit for answer ;)

Quarrox
01-21-2017, 03:55 PM
I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.

Awani
01-21-2017, 04:47 PM
I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.

He was talking about me: see this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2002-The-Separator&p=47212#post47212) post

Also I think that is kind of Andro (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/member.php?371-Andro)-specific terminology (although many of those words can be found elsewhere)... so I guess if you read a lot of Andro's posts those words will make more sense, for example this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4098-The-Hermetic-Foundations-Of-Alchemy&p=34574#post34574) post.

:cool:

Andro
01-21-2017, 06:33 PM
I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.

I haven't used any neologisms.

Perhaps it's the context and the way these terms are combined, to paint a certain picture/model that I wanted to offer for consideration.

Quarrox
01-21-2017, 07:31 PM
Thanks Dev, for the link.


I haven't used any neologisms.

Perhaps it's the context and the way these terms are combined, to paint a certain picture/model that I wanted to offer for consideration.


I was reading your prior post a few times again. The book page you posted is interesting too, i had to translate quite a few words, as english is not my mother tongue. But i try to summarize.

Can we compare the black sun/cloud/substance concept to a huge tank, filled with a mass of uncreated, infinite information in infinite combinations. Invisible and outside of the 3-dimensional space and time construct?

In contrast, the white sun offers an infinite quantity of different molds to be filled with the substance of the cloud to cast an infinite number of perceptions?

And as i understand the attached text from the book: The "reality" behaves the way we expect it to behave, the material world appears how we expect and how we believe it to appear. At the same time it presents itself to us as it is, even if this statement is contradictory. Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

I don't know if it does make sense.

Andro
01-21-2017, 08:41 PM
Can we compare the black sun/cloud/substance concept to a huge tank, filled with a mass of uncreated, infinite information in infinite combinations. Invisible and outside of the 3-dimensional space and time construct?

In contrast, the white sun offers an infinite quantity of different molds to be filled with the substance of the cloud to cast an infinite number of perceptions?

And as i understand the attached text from the book: The "reality" behaves the way we expect it to behave, the material world appears how we expect and how we believe it to appear. At the same time it presents itself to us as it is, even if this statement is contradictory. Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

Perhaps it can be easier (if only for the sake of analogical understanding) to compare the 'White Sun' to the conscious/left brained mind and the Black Sun to the Universal Super-conscious, which can be accessed via the individual right-brained 'subconscious'.

The 'White Sun' can be regarded as acting like a sort of Sulfur or 'Fixing Agent' for everything that is rendered from the Mercurial 'Other side of The Veil' (i.e. 'The Space of Variants').

Those 'Two Suns' (2 sides of the same coin/Sun) are in a sort of constant 'alchemical feedback loop' with each other, hence, for example, if we want to corporify UN-Determined Spiritus Mundi (Black Sun Emanation), we have, in many cases, to circumvent its 'Solar Uptake' (for example, by operating before sunrise).

It is believed in certain circles that this (otherwise all-pervading) 'Dual Mirror' is somehow also physically manifest at what we refer to as the 'North Pole' (hence many authors advising us to direct ourselves towards the Magnetic North), as well as the model of those emanations being reflected back from the Pole Star (right above the so-called North Pole), especially if/when the 'White Sun' is not 'interfering' and absorbing it into itself before we get the chance to 'catch' it.

I have personally witnessed this 'North Pole Phenomenon' out-of body, however, this only validates the concept for me, so I am only offering all this as a model for consideration.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vadj0Nkby58

Schmuldvich
01-21-2017, 09:01 PM
Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

Yes! I am familiar with this study. If true and repeatable (like we are being told), this is an extraordinarily interesting discovery! We all know how important perception is in our lives. To know that observation affects things too is a game-changer and greatly intrigues me. What can we do with this knowledge?

Andro
01-21-2017, 09:16 PM
Yes! I am familiar with this study. If true and repeatable (like we are being told), this is an extraordinarily interesting discovery! We all know how important perception is in our lives. To know that observation affects things too is a game-changer and greatly intrigues me. What can we do with this knowledge?

Tom Campbell deals with this extensively in his research. We have a dedicated thread on it HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3897-Tom-s-Big-TOE).

Quarrox
01-21-2017, 11:03 PM
Thank you Andro for the analogy, i think i understand better now.

@Schmuldvich, a good question. I think quantum physics can open doors of whose existence we do not even know of. Another very interesting phenomenon are particles that behave dependent on each other, even if they are millions of lightyears apart. Space and distance do not matter in this example. These particles seem to be connected and entangled in a mysterious, invisible network (think about teleportation). I think science and spirituality have to and will unite.

Quarrox
01-21-2017, 11:15 PM
To come back to the thread topic: Gnosticism vs. Hermeticism. I think it was Dev who said that the early Gnostics evolved out of hermetic teachings but followed Jesus and his teachings (churches, especially the roman catholic church, do not, in my opinion). My conclusion would be, that they avow themselves to a different master, namely Jesus. The Hermeticists generally accept Hermes Trismegistus, the thrice great as their ultimate teacher and superior authority (of course the All is the All and hence incomparable). Right?

The hermetic philosophy is much older, some even say that Hermes was a contemporary of Abraham. Is it also permissible to think that the ancient Sabians in the muslim empire were Hermeticists, and as a reference to modern times, the Sufis follow to some grade hermetic thoughts and ideas?

Awani
01-21-2017, 11:48 PM
I think it was Dev who said that the early Gnostics evolved out of hermetic teachings...

Did I? Well it didn't. Hermeticism is much younger than Gnosticism. Yes Hermes and Thoth and the tradition is older than Gnosticism, but Hermeticism is a somewhat "modern" thing.


I would also not say Rosicrucianism is a branch of Gnosticism, rather a branch of Hermeticism.

Gnosticism is stand-alone origin-Christianity.

If there was any Hermeticism back in the days of Gnosticism they evolved parallel more than out of each other. Regardless both are based in the same ideas... the origin of which is Shamanism. It is for this reason Shamanism is the only thing that carries any weight (in my opinion).

Musical allegory: old school Blues is much better than Neo-Metal Trip-Hop Funk.

:cool:

Quarrox
01-22-2017, 12:08 AM
I'm sorry, my bad. I should have cross-checked the post before assuming. No, you did not say that.