PDA

View Full Version : Apprentice WANTED



elixirmixer
02-18-2017, 11:52 PM
Most people charge anywhere between $1000 - $5000 to run you through the basic Spagyric course.

If there does happen to be anyone living in the Lime Stone Coast of Australia, you have an opportunity for a free apprenticeship.

Cost: 1 hr of glassware washing and other cleaning duties, per day.

I highly doubt there are any alchemist around here, but, just in case...

Seth-Ra
02-18-2017, 11:55 PM
Surely this is a jest...

Perhaps it was meant for the Silly Thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?207-The-Silly-Thread&highlight=silly+thread). ;)





~Seth-Ra

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 12:00 AM
haha, you prick. :p

Seth-Ra
02-19-2017, 12:17 AM
haha, you prick. :p

So they tell me. :cool:

lol :)




~Seth-Ra

Schmuldvich
02-19-2017, 12:31 AM
Most people charge anywhere between $1000 - $5000 to run you through the basic Spagyric course.

If there does happen to be anyone living in the Lime Stone Coast of Australia, you have an opportunity for a free apprenticeship.

Cost: 1 hr of glassware washing and other cleaning duties, per day.

What do you plan to teach your apprentice?

Why should I, as an apprentice, want your guidance down the path of Spagyrics?

What do you have to offer?

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 12:53 AM
More equipment than you can poke a stick at, and a basic, modern, Robert A Bartlett style crash-course on herbal elixirs.

Just because i humbly admit that I do not know FOR SURE the shared definition of words like 'philosophical' and 'hermetic', doesn't mean that I don't actually know these concepts. I just haven't witnessed an absolute PROOF within the lab to back up my thoughts.

However, amuse me Mr. Skrilex, what would YOU teach a student that I could not? (Other than to drown in piles of literature until their quntessense is extracted via boardum?)

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 01:01 AM
I believe (at this point) that the word philosophical, simply refers to how naturally we obtain our products.

Hermetically sealed, to me, requires the environment to be present.

For instance, if I pour rainwater, straight from being caught, into a container, and seal it, it is hermetical. As opposed to if I had boiled, or distilled that water, in which case, the NATURAL life-forces, both spiritual and PHYSICAL (ie: bacteria) have been removed or destroyed, and then if I seal this flask, I would not consider it hermetical, since I have destroyed/effected the environment in which this substance NATURALLY lives.

See. Simple. Not years and years of fucking books, some people kill themselves, due to their frustrated lack of patience, and become slack within their lab, and blow themselves up, all because some other guy wanted him to 'pay-his-dues'.

These are silly old philosophies, has nothing to do with our art so much as it does with human stupidity.

In regards to the 'philosophical', I think I would prefer to stick with scientific grade reagents, and know what it is that I am making, rather than more organic compounds, that could have myriad upon myriad of unforeseen variables.

Once I have mastered my art with scientific reagents, I may then, and only then, take a more philosophical view upon things.

One thing I know that I could teach my students, that YOU could not, Skrilex (I'm calling you that because my brain has no way of otherwise pronouncing your name) is how to set up a PRACTICAL laboratory :p :p

Schmuldvich
02-19-2017, 01:16 AM
I believe (at this point) that the word philosophical, simply refers to how naturally we obtain our products.

See. Simple. Not years and years of fucking books, some people kill themselves, due to their frustrated lack of patience, and become slack within their lab, and blow themselves up, all because some other guy wanted him to 'pay-his-dues'.

One thing I know that I could teach my students, that YOU could not, Skrilex (I'm calling you that because my brain has no way of otherwise pronouncing your name) is how to set up a PRACTICAL laboratory :p :p


...Have you seen my current lab set up?



Just because i humbly admit that I do not know FOR SURE the shared definition of words like 'philosophical' and 'hermetic', doesn't mean that I don't actually know these concepts. I just haven't witnessed an absolute PROOF within the lab to back up my thoughts. However, amuse me Mr. Skrilex, what would YOU teach a student that I could not?

My post (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5143-Apprentice-WANTED&p=47798#post47798) above was not meant as an attack at all. I was asking sincere questions (that I still want answered), not coming at you in any way or encouraging you to get defensive. I am very sorry if you feel I was trying to one-up you or anything. That was not my intent.




Do what thou wilt.

black
02-19-2017, 01:28 AM
Hi Mr Mixer
Just a little question.

If all alchemical texts were written in Chinese, what would you do?

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 01:40 AM
I plan to teach my students:

The two standardized method of creating Spagyrics.
How to volatize salts.
How to set-up a PROFFESIONAL lab, as opposed to the one I have.
How to correctly calcine
How to correctly obtain sulfurs
How to make your own plant spirits (correctly)

The legal hastles in Australia
How to mine for ores (well not so much of a how-to, as much as a "dig this")
How to best source plant materials
How to be efficient (not waste money) ((this is probably the greatest thin. I have to offer, removing the huge gap for error while setting up your first (and hopefully) last laboratory.

Then of course, we will test all that we have learnt by making an incredibly powerful rosemary stone. (Or whatever other stone we feel like) I feel each buddig alchemist should have a strong rosemary stone, mainly due to the fact, that no one what's to be healed, by someone that is getting the sniffles each winter (speaking metaphorically)

Then, we move on the the mineral realm (I haven't found any other teachers willing to teach in this realm) ((except one, but he's my little secret))

Not to mention that the Apprentice Alchemist will have the opportunity to co-author a book with me and be in my alchemical documentary if they so choose to do so.

Yeah. Just constant epic-ness. All the time. When we arnt doing Spagyrics specifically, we will most likely always have some kind of advanced stone work on the go, all the time.

I don't trust in the just reading until it all makes sense. The proof is in the pudding. I could sit in this bath (yes I'm in the bath) forever, telling myself 'I know how to make the stone' but then just never bother doing it. Thinking it's all just either too easy or too hard... The mind plays tricks on us. The lab does not.

Are you in Australia Skrilix?

And no, I haven't seen the lab, must be new, last time we spoke you said you didn't have one yet but were about to get started. How's it going?

I didn't feel as much attacked, as I did defensive, just because I'm frustrated today because I HAVE TO CLEAN THE LAB! And I hate cleaning.

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 01:43 AM
Hi Mr Mixer
Just a little question.

If all alchemical texts were written in Chinese, what would you do?

Oooh I like this question!

Well you see, this is my very point. Does not the alchemist have more to learn by observing nature, rather than authors?

So I would:

A) observe nature; and of course
B) learn mandarin :)

Schmuldvich
02-19-2017, 01:57 AM
Oooh I like this question!

Well you see, this is my very point. Does not the alchemist have more to learn by observing nature, rather than authors?

So I would:

A) observe nature; and of course
B) learn mandarin :)

There is an Option C):

Alchemical Illustrations...Pictures!


No words needed! The only thing you need is something you already have, your eyes! A well-nurtured subconscious would certainly be of benefit as well but is by no means a requirement for gaining further understanding of our Processes and prima materia.


I suggest viewing the following:



The Crowning Of Nature

Cabala Mineralis

Emblematum

Mutus Liber

Donum Dei

Splendor Solis

Twelve Keys

Ripley Scroll

Book Of Lambspring

Rosarium Philosophorum

Vessels Of Hermes

Von der Universal Tinctur

Philosophia Hermetica

Thesaurus of Alchemy

Manly Palmer Hall MS Vol. 16

Manly Palmer Hall MS Vol. 37

Compendium Of The Preparation Of The True Aurum Potable

Sylva Philosophorum

Amphitheatrum Sapientiae Aeternae

Cabala: Mirror Of Art And Nature

Aurora Consurgens

La Génération et Opération du Grand Euvre pour Faire e L’or

Thesaurus Mundi

Atalanta Fugiens

Aetatibus Mundi

Hieroglyphics

Book Of Abraham The Jew


Flamel's "Testament" (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/flamel.html) is great supplementary reading as well!

black
02-19-2017, 02:05 AM
Yes. Exactly, Mr Mixer!

Learn Chinese to understand the texts. You WILL have to learn the language of alchemy before you can achieve anything ALCHEMIC in the lab. The learning of this language does not come easily.

It is a devout commitment that not many are prepared to accept the Herculean task.

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 02:34 AM
It sounds as if you guys are saying, and please verify if this is the case, that 'traditional Spagyrics' as in the forms I've expressed, is in fact incorrect, both in practise and theory.

Is there a hidden form of Spagyrics of which it seems I am in-aware?

black
02-19-2017, 02:52 AM
To my understanding spagerics is not Alchemy.

Because in spagerics there is no Alchemic Proccess!!!

Andro
02-19-2017, 06:22 AM
Some suggestions for elixirmixer's consideration:

1. Change the title of this thread (as well as your general intention) from 'Apprentice WANTED' (???) to 'Mentor WANTED'. Or at least 'Colleague'/'Partner' wanted...

2. Get over yourself. Make less noise. And when you write, put some effort & intention into proper spelling and content coherence.

3. Internalize that Alchemy is neither chemistry nor 'chymistry'.

4. To the excellent list of Schmuldvich for engravings, add The Hermetic Triumph of St. Didier as well as the Typus Mundi. There are other very good ones, but I can't recall them all.

5. I don't think you absolutely have to read the entire RAMS collection, although it wouldn't be a bad idea at all. I read it almost entirely.

I would recommend the following Authors/Works:

- Start with Kirchweger - The Golden Chain of Homer (THE foundation, read it AT LEAST 5 times through!). It's in RAMS.

- Limojon de St. Didier - Hermetic Triumph (not in RAMS)

- Von Welling - Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum (in RAMS)

- Fulcanelli - Mysteries and maybe also Dwellings (not in RAMS, and only if you can palate the overly left-brained phonetic mindfuck).

- Sendivogius (not in RAMS, if I remember correctly)

- Anonymous - Recreations Hermetiques (not in RAMS, pending translation to English)
- ICH - Hermes' Old and True Nature Path (not in RAMS, search for the free download on this forum and consider purchasing the hard copy or at least make a donation to the translator)
- Cyliani - Hermes Unveiled (in RAMS)

- Urbigerus (in RAMS)

- 13 Secret Letters (not in RAMS, search for the free download on this forum and consider purchasing the hard copy or at least make a donation to the translator)

- Certain sections of Hyle & Cohyle (in RAMS)

- Certain sections of Ruesenstein (in RAMS)

- Chemical Moonshine (in RAMS & online, and there's also an expanded version in the Manly P. Hall collection)

- LabyrinthDesigners.org (https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/) (if not the entire website, then at least the FAQs section (https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/faqs/))

- Any rare/genuine R+C text you can get your hands on.

- Whatever text you feel intuitively pulled towards...

- Some bits on this forum are extremely revealing. Up to you to find/locate them.

NOTE: There are countless pearls in RAMS, but you could read them after the foundations, to get some extra Keys for hopefully opening some locks in the above listed works.

NOTE: If it's Alchemy you're interested in, put aside the likes of Bartlett, Hauck, Kalec, Albertus, etc... Also avoid those who either make fantastic claims and/or seem more interested to fill their coffers with your money.

6. Make some genuine friends who are also Alchemists (not 'puffers'), and let the friendship be about more than just Alchemy. Make sure you bring good value to the table as well. Don't be a bigot. Talk less, listen more. Listen without prejudice. Connect.

7. Be patient and hurry slowly. It's a quest that may take a lifetime, if you arrive at all. Be mentally prepared for failure, but put your unbending faith in success.

8. Forget everything you think you know... This should have been the first one :cool:


----------------------------------------------------

black
02-19-2017, 07:30 AM
Schmuldvich and Andro, I agree with you both 100%.

You have provided the best advice for anyone seriously pursuing The Great Work.

There are no shortcuts in this work.

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 07:47 AM
Most people charge anywhere between $1000 - $5000 to run you through the basic Spagyric course.

This was originally just about me finding someone to help out in my Seven basics Spagyrics documentary.

But yes I can see why you all think your so smart.

Because you consider alchemy to be the theory and process of encapsulating a special light, whether solar, luna, invisible or a mix of all three; into a corporeal stone. Well done boys.

Had any luck yet? ;)

AFTER I have completed the 'traditional' spagyrics process, which A LOT of people feel, falls under the alchemical umbrella; then I will continue on to the light germination experiments, capturing Spiritus Mundi, ect.

Unless, as I asked before, you are suggesting that there is some kind of 'Plant Alchemy' that I have somehow completely over-looked, even though I couldn't possibly think of a single natural process that I haven't covered somewhere in my threads.

Andro
02-19-2017, 08:07 AM
This was originally just about me finding someone to help out in my Seven basics Spagyrics documentary.

Then don't call it 'apprentice'. If you can't say what you mean, how can you mean what you say?


the 'traditional' spagyrics process, which A LOT of people feel, falls under the alchemical umbrella

What 'a lot of people feel' is utterly irrelevant to what is or isn't Alchemy. It's not a popularity vote. If you think otherwise, go to Facebook and follow the recipe with the most likes.


But yes I can see why you all think your so smart.

Because you consider alchemy to be the theory and process of encapsulating a special light, whether solar, luna, invisible or a mix of all three; into a corporeal stone. Well done boys.

Had any luck yet? ;)

This cocky (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5134-Seaweed-Elixir-First-Basic-(Luna)&p=47818#post47818) and condescending approach will surely get you a long way.

Good luck.

elixirmixer
02-19-2017, 08:19 AM
condescending approach

.....


Then don't call it 'apprentice'.

So what is it then, when someone comes to your lab, with perhaps limited experience, exchanges some time of energy, in this case, laboratory maintenance, for an instructional course in practical spagyrics?

I wasn't asking any aclaimed P.Stoners to come clean my mess and teach my how to produce SM!

I was offering MY home, MY equipment, MY experience, to someone wishing to LEARN.


Internalize that Alchemy is neither chemistry nor 'chymistry'.

I have both, made it clear, most especially in my EM's PS Thread, that I understand the concept of Alchemy and its difference with common medicinal practises, and have also pretended like I know nothing, in order to facilitate more growth for myself and for beginners.

I was actually just politely seeking interest in community growth and you guys just came along and rubbed poo all over my walls and then told me to
Make some genuine friends who are also Alchemists

.....? I've said it before and I'll say it again, you guys are weird :p :cool:

Andro
02-19-2017, 08:45 AM
you guys are weird

Yes we are (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2501-How-to-...-get-into-the-Weird-Wild-Wise-Wide-Sacred-Science-of-Alchemy).

Awani
02-19-2017, 01:47 PM
Some suggestions for elixirmixer's consideration...

Good suggestions all around.


Talk less, listen more.

Although those that claim to know in the alchemical community does do a fair bit of talking in order to put themselves in a good light, or generate "students" even when they say they don't... and show a great deal of ego (that takes many different forms). IMHO.


Had any luck yet? ;)

I think this is a valid question, because I think there has been extremely little success in terms of material products... I am sure there has been great success in terms of material products placing influence on the immaterial and thus elevating the state of affairs for that particular alchemist (to a degree, although not all the way).

It is easy for someone to say "they did it", and as easy to say "they didn't". It's like debating the existence of God, either you have faith and know or you don't.

I think this is very important: the Stone is a MacGuffin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)

:cool:

Andro
02-19-2017, 02:05 PM
I think there has been extremely little success in terms of material products ...that I/we know of...

Andro
02-19-2017, 02:19 PM
Although those that claim to know in the alchemical community does do a fair bit of talking in order to put themselves in a good light, or generate "students" even when they say they don't... and show a great deal of ego (that takes many different forms). IMHO.

Yes, but IMO there is another 'category' to this.

There is a certain 'turning point' when the truly wise stop speaking (go silent).

If we are able to recognize them, I think we should cherish their words, for as long as they still speak.

They will NEVER be advertising for students/pupils/apprentices, neither directly nor indirectly.

If we ever happen to meet a genuine adept who finds us 'ready', he/she will make the offer to initiate us. We don't just go ahead and ask for it.

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear", etc...

Awani
02-19-2017, 10:53 PM
I'm going to move the Paracelsus posts to the thread about Paracelsus (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?10-Paracelsus)... this thread is more about Teacher/Student matters.

RANT WARNING (LOL).


If we ever happen to meet a genuine adept who finds us 'ready', he/she will make the offer to initiate us. We don't just go ahead and ask for it.

I agree with you in terms of a teacher that is supposed to teach laboratory alchemy of some sort (even with spiritual twists or not). But I guess it comes down to what we all "study", and for me personally I am really - at this point - only interested in the elevation of myself... not to elevate above anyone else... rather elevate for myself. This kind of work cannot have a teacher, although it can have inspiration... but for me I am beyond any teacher that comes in the form of a being that still shits and breathes. If these words have been read carelessly it might sound that I am too good for a teacher, but that is not at all what I am saying. If I want to become a Master in the Lab then yes I would not say no to a teacher... but I want to become a Master of Transcendence for Me. No one can do this work but the person that is doing it. Same as no one can take a shit in my place, I have to take the shit.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is more in line with going on a pilgrimage, than going to "school" under someone.

I don't discredit anyone that has a teacher/student, because in some cases such things are essential. Only speaking personally, because it is all I can do at this point.

Some could argue that transcendence without lab work is impossible, and if lab work entails the traditional alchemy lab work then I disagree. It can be done without such lab work (and it can be done with it as well - it depends what helps you formulate the Work). But if lab work is non-traditional then yes it [transcendence] cannot be achieved without it. I certainly don't want to spark up the practical vs. spiritual debate... I only feel - for me - that if the traditional alchemical lab work is a big part of the essential Work (which I strongly feel it is not, both in my heart and spirit), then I am finished with alchemy. Fully.

Everyone has different goals in life: mine is all about peace and love and grace and healing

I don't need any minerals nor tinctures for this. Especially since immortality is irrelevant to me (my spirit is already immortal). And especially since gold is also irrelevant to me... I might not be free of all the deadly sins, but greed is certainly one I can honestly say I do not have.

It is worth to repeat again: the Stone is a MacGuffin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)

:cool:

elixirmixer
02-20-2017, 12:02 AM
"We should do this"...... "we should do that"....

Who is it that makes up these political correctness's??

What happens then if i'm just a loud mouth cocky bastard, and then I find the stone before the next person?

Does that mean the political corectness of our culture should change?

Will we then all be saying "We should be loud, and annoying, like the last great sage was...." ;)

There is only one pre-requisite that I know of to obtain the stone. A pious life. A relationship with God.

Everything else, is once again ego, because it doesnt matter if I take pride in my voice, or you take pride in your silence, pride is still pride, no matter how much its vibrating.

The idea that I should find a student 'in a certain way', brings me again to these weirdness's' that (IMO) have a lot more to do with a perceived alchemical culture, than they have actually anything to do with our ACTUAL ART! (nothing in the slightest)

I don't consider 'quietness' a virtue, unless you began like someone like me who can't shut up, and then 'learnt' the art of silence.
If your a natural introvert, don't consider it any great achievement to not be talking so much, think of it as an achievement when you 'learn' NOT to be an introvert.

AT the end of the day, if someone comes to my house, and cleans up this lab, I will teach them a shit tonne of practical experience they otherwise would not recieve. As you can tell, the words I use to 'label' things are very loose. Apprentice, student, college, partner, friend, MATE! Would there be any practical difference? Do I want a stranger coming to my house which has so much pride that they could not consider themselves a subordinate? I'd much prefer a student who knows what he is, a student, and not someone to come here that already has their cup full of "special alchemy definition" that don't, in the Grander reality, actually exist.

Awani
02-20-2017, 12:09 AM
There is only one pre-requisite that I know of to obtain the stone. A pious life. A relationship with God.

I would agree with this strongly, although I would phrase it: a compassionate life, and a surrender to the Divine Mystery

Basically means the same thing, but God and Pious has religious baggage that can easily confuse people. Anyway to each his own.

Although there is some wisdom I think you misunderstood in terms of silence...

If you are quiet you will hear. If you stop looking you will see.

:cool:

zoas23
02-20-2017, 01:36 AM
Some suggestions for elixirmixer's consideration:

Lovely advices. Another "Everyone should print it and put it at their labs!" text.

EM: I don't like Mormonism, but you do.... Is a Deacon able to ordain a Bishop? Of course not... but why?

Is a Deacon able to guide someone to be a good Bishop? Wouldn't a Bishop be the proper person to help someone who wants to devote his life to become a Bishop?

For sure you know "more" than someone who knows NOTHING... and yet your posts show that you still have a lot to learn as to take someone as your "apprentice"... which is what probably everyone is trying to explain you in different ways.

Other than that, spagyrics is a GOOD path to advance to alchemy, but simply because you learn how far is it possible to go with the materials of a lab, get used of what things cause explosions and which ones don't, etc... but it's more a technical issue than a philosophical issue.

elixirmixer
02-20-2017, 02:36 AM
I suppose what I am saying Zoas23, is that there is a lot of "we know more than you" going on, but no one has really bothered to say what that is exactly.

If your talking about the techniques used to create the P.Stone, then I will again point out, that, for the most part, the vast majority of members on this forum have failed, showing that their GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL UNDERSTANDING is just silly theories, that they copied from old dead guys, after they read their books.

And that they failed in the two most important aspects of alchemy, "a compassionate life, and a surrender to the Divine Mystery" - Dev
And also, to observe nature, and not a whole bunch of dead philosophers.

So what is it exactly that I don't know that you guys do? How to bathe in decades of reading? I've done all the same reading (although maybe not so much) as the rest of you. I understand the same principals as the rest of you, while you have 'believed' that I am in error because of my loose definition of the word Alchemy.

For all of my STUDENTS: HOW TO MAKE THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE (A brief un-detailed epistle)

Take some fucking Dew.

Take some even more fucking awesome and secret Rainwater.

Filter.

Put them together.

Take some just "oh-so special and magical and secet and im such a big shot" salt. Yep, just some everyday ol' fucking Sea Salt.

Solve et Coagula

Until you recieve a runny like consistency.

Take 100ml of filtered Rainwater collected on the full moon.

Take 100ml of filtered Dew water collected on the full moon.

Take 100 grams of runny salt.

Digest at 37.5 degs, first it will sweat, then the sweating will stop and it will go black over 40 days.

Increase temp to 40 degrees. Over the next forty days it will sublime into a whitness... and I think thats just about enough.

WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? WHAT IS THIS OH SO SECRET KICK ASS PHILOSOPHY?

Well, simply, spiritus mundi is coagulated in the moments that our waters, change from a gas, back into a vapour. The circulating within the flask is what is collecting the spiritual energy that you are seeking.

Fire becomes air, air becomes water, blah blah blah you know the drill.

our waters are called mercury because they have both the male and female part of the seeds.

Andro said that the waters are to be HOMO-genized, and not HETERO. So his and our view differ slightly here.

There are many many various to this 'recipe', people add electrods to increase spiritus mundi, they use magnetic shielding to prevent other forces from wrecking it. Remember, it is the squaring of the circle. The perfect balance of ALL forces, that will generate spiritua mundi, and then, once you have worked out how to balance a 'little' force, you can "crank up the heat" so to speak and have MORE force, but still in perfect balance.

I have not attempted these things but that's basically the jist of it, now can you guys stop pretending like your in some super-duper secret society, that you hold the keys to all knowledge and that your 'superior' philosophical knowledge somehow makes me, in-eligible to teach other people this art.

I have not seen ANY superior knowledge's or behaviours. Only different perspectives, all of which I have learnt from.

For instance, when I got here, I was a Mormon. Now, I can see that it has limited view, because "God" (IMO) is not just the bloke, on the throne, with the beard (which I still believe he is) he is also, as Dev has often hinted at, a non-form of permeating love that through the course of the universe expresses itself in an infinite fractal of life, love, angels, demons, planets, and places with no space and time.

Has there been much learning here? My thread 'One in purpose (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4757-One-in-purpose)' was just about all the evidence that I needed to see that MOST people here, in pursuit of the stone, were doing so, for themselves, and not really with the intention to help others (probably why they don't have it yet.)

I've seen people saying "don't judge gay people, you horrible christian little fuck" (not in so many words)
I've seen people saying "Don't act so high and mighty, you don't know as much as us, so you can't teach"
I've seen people saying "Don't tell people that your advanced spagyrics is alchemy, what does Red Oil of Gold have to do with Alchemy?"

You can see, that from where im sitting, it is actually no more than a hilarious display of hypocracy, projection, and I feel a little sorry for the people that have found themselves in such stagnentated ways of looking at things.

For instance, do you think that I act like this in real life?

Do you think the ElixirMixer, is a real person? FUCK NO!

And all of this "you need this, you shouldnt do that, you this blah blah blah", just shows that people have wrongfully, (and foolishly) judged me.

How could you make judgements on someone you have never met? How could you assume, that this text, with the label ElixirMixer, is a true measure of my character, virtue, knowledge, or anything else.

I do enjoy these good talks boys. But I have to go, I have an Alchemy presentation to work on :cool:

And I would appreciate it, since its such good advice for me to "Find some real friends", if when I do make a post about, say, meeting someone, helping someones sick grandma, or trying to teach beginners, if you guys didn't flood my threads with negativity, and philosophical cretiques, which quite often, have very little to do with what I have posted.

I don't mind the intensive philosophical heckling, but there is a time and place, surely.

Feel free to start a "Why E.M. is wrong and a douche bag" thread of your own. :o

Awani
02-20-2017, 09:31 AM
How could you make judgements on someone you have never met?

Welcome to humanity. :)

I would not put too much value in the forums. It is not by coincidence that Hermes and Hermit are to words that are strongly linked.

I would suggest to not look at the forums as a foundation on which your work begins, rather more as a "customer service hotline" that can be used for detailed questions... but the overall arc of the "questions" is ultimately solved by yourself. Or use it - as I do - as a sort of public diary of what is buzzing in the mind... and sometimes when this is done someone else says something that puts me in a new line of thought. The greatest work is, in the end, done away from keyboard.

You could also use the forums as an esoteric dating service. I have met a lot of friends in this forum. But be conscious of yourself, and this is friendly advice: whomever you present yourself as in the forum is WHO you are to everyone else... even if away from keyboard you are someone else... to everyone else you are the person you show here. So if you want to network, and take some relationships further off-line, then you have to do what you would do if you would make a friend away from keyboard.

I can say this in a language that might resonate more with you...

When you stand before God are you full of confidence, bravado and pride? Or are you humble?

As Jesus said: "Those that live by the sword, die by the sword."

In other words, aim to meet others as you would meet your God, because they are all part of God anyway. :)

:cool:

elixirmixer
02-20-2017, 11:09 AM
Wow Dev; that was a little beautiful ;)

Quarrox
02-20-2017, 01:39 PM
What is your ultimate goal with your lab work? If you say for example "the stone", i would ask, what do you expect from the stone? The ultimate and final goal. I differ between mental/spiritual alchemy and practical alchemy (i have no experience with practical lab alchemy, my inexistent knowledge about it says me that it is a mix of chemistry, natural medicine/homeopathy), but i don't have a clue as i never dealt with it.

Personally i see it a bit like Dev. My "holy trinity" consists of

-LOVE (for everything and everybody that has been, is, and will be). Very hard to achieve.

-HUMILITY

-INTROSPECTION/CONTEMPLATION

These are my mid/long-term goals.

Awani
02-20-2017, 01:52 PM
What is your ultimate goal with your lab work?

Maybe see this thread: Why make the Stone? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4950-Why-make-The-Stone)

:cool:

Andro
02-20-2017, 05:27 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you guys are weird

Hmm...


I hope you guys enjoy watching me be a weirdo, just as much as I enjoy being one

Welcome to the club!

zoas23
02-20-2017, 05:41 PM
I suppose what I am saying Zoas23, is that there is a lot of "we know more than you" going on, but no one has really bothered to say what that is exactly.

Schmuldvich, Andro, JDP and Black told you about it... the most elusive matter.
A person once told me that the solution to the riddle can be given again and again, but some people won't listen.

AND once you have it, you are in page 1 of probably any worthy book, so it's only the beginning.


If your talking about the techniques used to create the P.Stone, then I will again point out, that, for the most part, the vast majority of members on this forum have failed, showing that their GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL UNDERSTANDING is just silly theories, that they copied from old dead guys, after they read their books.

Without a GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL UNDERSTANDING you will arrive nowhere fast.
With some philosophy, you will realize that 95% of what you have in the lab is quite useless... which is a weird feeling.


And that they failed in the two most important aspects of alchemy, "a compassionate life, and a surrender to the Divine Mystery" - Dev
And also, to observe nature, and not a whole bunch of dead philosophers.

To observe nature is tricky... I like the Antikythera mechanism as a metaphor... an astronomical clock. What is an astronomical clock anyway? it's an artificial and microscopic version of SOME aspects of nature. The person who builds one knows WHAT to observe and what to "ignore"... i.e, if you are going to build an astronomical clock, then you are going to pay attention to the planets, but not to the weather, neither the shape of the clouds, neither if your cat stole a broccoli plant from your garden.
So it's a "selective" version of nature that willingly excludes a lot of factors.
The Antikythera mechanism can be a good metaphor... a tiny version of nature that excludes a lot of factors.

Those "dead philosophers" can teach you what to observe.


For all of my STUDENTS: HOW TO MAKE THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE (A brief un-detailed epistle)

Take some fucking Dew.

Take some even more fucking awesome and secret Rainwater.

Filter.

Put them together.

Take some just "oh-so special and magical and secet and im such a big shot" salt. Yep, just some everyday ol' fucking Sea Salt.

Solve et Coagula

Until you recieve a runny like consistency.

Take 100ml of filtered Rainwater collected on the full moon.

Take 100ml of filtered Dew water collected on the full moon.

Take 100 grams of runny salt.

Digest at 37.5 degs, first it will sweat, then the sweating will stop and it will go black over 40 days.

Increase temp to 40 degrees. Over the next forty days it will sublime into a whitness... and I think thats just about enough.

Really?

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc



our waters are called mercury because they have both the male and female part of the seeds.

Andro said that the waters are to be HOMO-genized, and not HETERO. So his and our view differ slightly here.

Yeah, the matter of Andro is probably gay... And you have found the heterosexual path.

Maybe we can take the matter of Andro to one of those rehab clinics (were they clinics?) and they can cure it and make it heterosexual.

Or maybe you will understand that the genres are simple metaphors.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjggN-KByI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummu


I have not attempted these things but that's basically the jist of it, now can you guys stop pretending like your in some super-duper secret society, that you hold the keys to all knowledge and that your 'superior' philosophical knowledge somehow makes me, in-eligible to teach other people this art.

I have not seen ANY superior knowledge's or behaviours. Only different perspectives, all of which I have learnt from.

Or maybe the point is: don't teach someone how to make a cake if you can't make one yourself...

You may have the theory that if you use some 40 grams of mud, then after keeping it in the oven for 40 days using 40ºC it will become chocolate... and you can tech such thing... but in the end there will be no cake... other than a cake made of dirt.


Has there been much learning here? My thread 'One in purpose (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4757-One-in-purpose)' was just about all the evidence that I needed to see that MOST people here, in pursuit of the stone, were doing so, for themselves, and not really with the intention to help others (probably why they don't have it yet.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D59IZTlr3Q

For some reason all these guys who are so evil that may make the Marquis de Sade blush have been spoon feeding you all the time saying the same thing again and again... "Whoever has ears, let them hear" says a famous phrase. If you refuse to listen, then good luck...



I've seen people saying "don't judge gay people, you horrible christian little fuck" (not in so many words)

Yeah, that's an important lesson to learn.



I've seen people saying "Don't act so high and mighty, you don't know as much as us, so you can't teach"

Did you hear ANYONE saying "you can't teach, but I can teach"????
Or you simply heard "you are not ready to take a student, you still have a long way to walk" and you inferred the other part?

I can share experiences with some friends, but I CAN'T take a student... I still have a lot to learn myself... and so you do.



I've seen people saying "Don't tell people that your advanced spagyrics is alchemy, what does Red Oil of Gold have to do with Alchemy?"

And why they are telling you such thing?



Do you think the ElixirMixer, is a real person? FUCK NO!

And all of this "you need this, you shouldnt do that, you this blah blah blah", just shows that people have wrongfully, (and foolishly) judged me.

And WHY you have been wrongfully judged? Is there a reason? Or is simply happened by chance?

black
02-20-2017, 11:03 PM
Hello, is this the real Mr Mixer...

that wants to become an Alchemist or is this just some silly
school boy playing time wasting pranks on the members of this forum.

Some of the members here have been investing quite some time and effort
in giving you assistance on your path.

They have lives and study and lab work to continue with also.

Stop asking questions if you're not prepared to listen !!!

TIME IS PRECIOUS... MAKE THE BEST OF IT !!!!!

Take it or leave it as you will...

but I hope this is not a complete waste of their time.

OR IS IT ????

elixirmixer
02-21-2017, 12:25 AM
Hmmmm... some very compelling points made by all of you. And yes, I have learnt an absolute shitload of stuff, having joined this forum.

I wanted to take upon a student, in basic modern spagyric works. Considering all the things that have been said, I will have to agree with you, that I still have a long way to go, before it is worth the time for a student to come and listen to me.

While in some regard I have some small understandings concerning alchemical principals, it is not deeply impressed upon me and I often fall away into more chymistry means.

I will try to calm down, and to take time to feel the deep appreciation that I do have for all the people who have had what it takes to butt heads with me, long enough to teach me something. Not an easy task I imagine, and yet, it has done me the world of good.

I will, as of this point, throw most of what I know about alchemy in the bin, and seek, a deeper, theoretically, philosophically, historically, accurate opinion on these topics.

I do believe that there is a hidden spagyrical path that IS ALCHEMICAL. And I don't want to try and teach anyone Spagyrics until I know what that is for sure.

It's there, and I will find it, and i will thank those that have helped me.

It appears this week I have been smashed from every corner of my life, basically saying "Shut up mate, and even if you dont care what people think of you, its still in your interest not to bombard them with your sense of the world"

Humility, something I thought I'd never find, I think has started to creep in. I don't like it, but it seems to be a necessary evil ;) :cool:

Thank you for everyones patience with me.

Kiorionis
02-21-2017, 12:37 AM
I do believe that there is a hidden spagyrical path that IS ALCHEMICAL. And I don't want to try and teach anyone Spagyrics until I know what that is for sure.

If I could point you in any direction along these lines it would be towards herbal and botanical medicine. Knowing how to properly prepare a spagyric tincture is one thing, but knowing how to create a complex botanical formula for the sake of Medicine is quote another thing.

I think spagyrics becomes much more useful to people generally when it's applied this way.

Also, don't take my word for it. Good luck.

Aham
02-21-2017, 08:17 PM
Take some fucking Dew.

Take some even more fucking awesome and secret Rainwater.

Filter.

Put them together.

Take some just "oh-so special and magical and secet and im such a big shot" salt. Yep, just some everyday ol' fucking Sea Salt.

Solve et Coagula

Until you recieve a runny like consistency.

Take 100ml of filtered Rainwater collected on the full moon.

Take 100ml of filtered Dew water collected on the full moon.

Take 100 grams of runny salt.

Digest at 37.5 degs, first it will sweat, then the sweating will stop and it will go black over 40 days.

Increase temp to 40 degrees. Over the next forty days it will sublime into a whitness... and I think thats just about enough.

...

I have not attempted these things...

EM,

I thought your post was hilarious. Maybe you didn't intend it in this way but I really enjoyed it :)

Even though you have not attempted this work yet, Spring (Rain/Dew) will be here soon and I plan to take a shot at following your directions knowing fully well that what I will be attempting is more like a recipe so results are likely to be different and I may not know one way or the other what I'm dealing with but what the heck... it's worth the practice.

Will keep you posted.

elixirmixer
02-21-2017, 09:50 PM
Aham, instead of my very very brief and (yes it was intended to be hilarious) post, you could look t R. A. Bartlett and his book "A primer to practical alchemy".

In that book is a recipe, for the Archeaus of Water. The salt is an added extra that I believe is important, but the proportions I suggested, were simply just a guess. Honestly I'm not sure what the bet proportions would be.

There is a great text called "The Sophic Hydrolith" or "Water Stone of the Wise"

When spring returns, these type of experiments will be drawing most of my attention.

Whether or not this stone is THE STONE (I'm more and more be livin that it's not) it IS however, a very cheap and interesting way to learn about both stones, and the underestimated properties of water.

WARNING: NITRATE SALTS, found in both dew and rainwater collected during a thunderstorm CAN BE HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE. This water experiment has, from what I have read in the text, killed quite a few practitioners. Water has a great many properties, and when subject to our trade, these properties can come forth in a mighty way. Typically, in this experiment, I believe it is highly favourable to have the entire flask lutes and wrapped in wire ect... To 'bottle' the pressures.

ONCE MORE: I have not performed this experiment yet, but I have heard THAT IT CAN BE EXPLOSIVE, attempt at your own risk, and DO YOUR RESEARCH from more qualified sources than this. But other than that, what cooler fuckin thing than to have a bright red crystal from what started as just..... Sea water!?

Very cool IMO.

Andro
02-21-2017, 10:02 PM
WARNING: NITRATE SALTS, found in both dew and rainwater collected during a thunderstorm CAN BE HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE. This water experiment has, from what I have read in the text, killed quite a few practitioners. Water has a great many properties, and when subject to our trade, these properties can come forth in a mighty way. Typically, in this experiment, I believe it is highly favourable to have the entire flask lutes and wrapped in wire etc... To 'bottle' the pressures.

ONCE MORE: I have not performed this experiment yet, but I have heard THAT IT CAN BE EXPLOSIVE, attempt at your own risk, and DO YOUR RESEARCH from more qualified sources than this.

A reminder: Safety First! (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3018-Safety-First!)

Aham
02-22-2017, 05:40 PM
I have heard THAT IT CAN BE EXPLOSIVE, attempt at your own risk, and DO YOUR RESEARCH from more qualified sources than this. But other than that, what cooler fuckin thing than to have a bright red crystal from what started as just..... Sea water!?

I do appreciate the advice however my wife's plan, to cash in on my life insurance policy, is now delayed... :D:D

I will get to the books you recommended but am still trying to slog through 'The Golden Chain'. A few here have recommended multiple reads of this seminal work and I'm on my 2nd pass of the 1st book. Between your sound advice and my re-reading Chapter 2 this morning, I'm realizing what many have said before in other places on the forum and also in this thread - our foundation has to be solid before attempting the great work; if we don't, we're essentially throwing money and time away, maybe even a limb or a life (paraphrasing). My initial enthusiasm overshadowed a responsible approach :o I'll just have to wait and keep my enthusiasm to dive-in, in check :D

Anyway, back to the book.

Aham
02-22-2017, 05:43 PM
Fully agree. Safety First, Second and Third :D

elixirmixer
03-01-2017, 10:53 PM
Okay so perhaps I've jumped the gun.

Id be far better off seeking a mentor of my own, rather than seeking students.

Anyone looking for an apprentice?

black
03-02-2017, 01:00 AM
You already have several very good mentors assisting and guiding you on this forum.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 03:25 AM
This is true, and for all of it I'm very grateful, but these assistances are more of a 'need to know' basis and not much of answering the actual questions I have.

Mostly it's been "ElixirMixer, your wrong, and up yourself, and addressing this whole thing from a less than ideal angle" now I can admit that, that is all true, and it has taken those slaps in the face to seek deeper truths and more foundational wisdoms.

Now, though, I seek actual guidance, and since I am moving more and more into mineral alchemy, trusted an truthful advice is of the uttermost value, in producing positive results and keeping me safe.

I have a question for you Mr Black. If you are willing to answer.

What would happen if I dry distilled fresh crushed Galena? Now I am not really looking for a direct response to the question, more of a, "your on the right tract" or "your stumbling down another false path"

I imagine this path will end up quite toxic, therefore I'm interested to know whether it is worth my time and difficulty.

JDP
03-02-2017, 04:25 AM
What would happen if I dry distilled fresh crushed Galena? Now I am not really looking for a direct response to the question, more of a, "your on the right tract" or "your stumbling down another false path"

"You are stumbling down another false path".


I imagine this path will end up quite toxic, therefore I'm interested to know whether it is worth my time and difficulty.

Not really, as galena does not contain anything "distillable" other than perhaps occasional residual humidity from its mineralization, but this is just common water, nothing "special" about it. Galena is just a compound of lead and sulfur. You will get nothing out of it with such a simplistic treatment. The only thing you might get out of it is some sublimates, like arsenic trioxide, for example, but only if the galena happens to be mixed with volatile minerals like arsenic sulfides. This would be merely by chance/accident, though. Pure galena won't give any volatile products.

Kiorionis
03-02-2017, 04:31 AM
Pure galena won't give any volatile products.

I theoretically agree, as I've never worked with Galena.

I do remember reading, however, that it is recommended to work with the metals and minerals "straight from the mine." Working with the natural ore means the natural acids are still bound up.

But I would question whether or not sulphuric acid could be produced during the distillation of a substance containing H2O and sulphur.

black
03-02-2017, 04:49 AM
1 What have the Alchemy Forums mentors suggested that you do in the pursuit
of the Great Work ?

2 If you are asking the question (whether or not to use galena ?) then it is possible that
your alchemistic knowledge and understanding may need a little more study time.

3 Out of interest what would you do with galena ?

4 Lab work is always good practice to hone lab skills.
BUT guessing what to work with in the lab is never a good idea !!!!!

I have also done my share of guessing in the past due to the lack of a Solid Alchemic
Foundation.

Many years before Alchemy Forums Mentors and their good advice, I made many
mistakes and am very, very lucky to be here today !!!

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 05:15 AM
I wouldn't call Galena a 'guess' so much.

There are texts that say that 'The Stone of Saturn' was the true philosophers stone. I do not agree with that statement, but I do believe it will make a stone that is a powerful detoxifier.

The art of distillation says that the stone of Saturn is such an effectual medicine, that if one can procure it, he need do very little else to find health and well being.

The reason that I have asked this question, and indeed, have a desire to dry distill lead Sulfide powder, is because of the Vinegar distillation thread, zko(?)'s hint about philosophical smokes, and yours, Mr Black and Andro's constant reminder that "I'm not thinking alchemically"

Since, Spagyrics have made philosophical waters with what is essentially a closed system, I am hoping that interesting results can be had in a closed system in the mineral realm.

JDP
03-02-2017, 06:01 AM
I wouldn't call Galena a 'guess' so much.

There are texts that say that 'The Stone of Saturn' was the true philosophers stone. I do not agree with that statement, but I do believe it will make a stone that is a powerful detoxifier.

The art of distillation says that the stone of Saturn is such an effectual medicine, that if one can procure it, he need do very little else to find health and well being.

The reason that I have asked this question, and indeed, have a desire to dry distill lead Sulfide powder, is because of the Vinegar distillation thread, zko(?)'s hint about philosophical smokes, and yours, Mr Black and Andro's constant reminder that "I'm not thinking alchemically"

Since, Spagyrics have made philosophical waters with what is essentially a closed system, I am hoping that interesting results can be had in a closed system in the mineral realm.

"Stone of Saturn" = deckname (i.e. code-word.) There's literally hundreds of them all over alchemical literature. The word "Saturn" was usually associated with the color black. At a couple of points in the alchemical work the composite matter used to prepare the Stone turns black. Thus the frequent use of this (misleading) name by droves of alchemists.

black
03-02-2017, 06:46 AM
Yes exactly, thank you JDP

It is said that the Great Work is full of many stumbling blocks.

Logically to most people... Saturn = lead = lead ore = GALENA

But a few Adepts, and not many, go to the trouble of stressing that the only meaning
of Saturn is Blackness.

Just something to think about.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 06:58 AM
@JDP - This is useful information, I'm assuming here that the code here is talking about antimony.

Now, while all of that is good and true and swell, Robert A Bartlett has a chapter in The Way of the Crucible about the procurer of a stone made from lead.

I don't believe that Bartlett wrote about any procedures that he did not perform himself.

What I do not understand is how so many of you can be so certain of your understanding without having fully completed the work, since a lot of matters will go through the colour changes and exhibit signs of stonliness.

I've been on the water path and was told I'm a knob
I've been on the urine " " " " " "
I've been on the lead
I've been on the pure light
I've been on just about every f'ing path I've ever heard of, and been confronted with discouragement at each turn. I'm losing faith in the process, since it doesn't feel like all this mentoring is getting me any closer, only seeking to confuse the absolute fuck out of me.

I am goin to shut up now, read every-f'ing-thing that Andro and Mr. SZvkoft have recommended and get back to you all.

You need to understand, I'm not doing this for the sake of 'proving my philosophy through a perfect physical expression or anything like that.

I just want a potent, universal, medicine, so that I can go and help people. One I have the ability to help people to the degree that I'm happy with, I dare say I'll never enter the lab again. (Well that's BS I'd just keep researching metal Hybridization)

Now, I'm going to cook this galena tomorrow night, not because I think it leads to the stone, but because I want to see if this will result in any catchable
Liquids, like perhaps what Mr K said about trapped h2o producing sulfuric acid ect.

The Spagyrics process should hypothetically work for any form of life. So why not this lead? Can only wait and see.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 07:00 AM
I appreciate the comments about Saturn = blackness, I did not know that.....

black
03-02-2017, 07:12 AM
That's what all the study is about.

It could possibly save you many lifetimes of hard work.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 08:01 AM
Yes. Exactly, Mr Mixer!

Learn Chinese to understand the texts. You WILL have to learn the language of alchemy before you can achieve anything ALCHEMIC in the lab. The learning of this language does not come easily.

It is a devout commitment that not many are prepared to accept the Herculean task.

Mr. Black, one could read the alchemical text for a lifetime and not learn this language. How does one learnt it?

black
03-02-2017, 10:49 AM
Well now...this is the question I have been waiting for.
I don't think you'll like the answer...but here goes anyway.

How do you learn this language...YOU DON'T.

In the old alchemic writings some master adepts inferred that God
gives an UNDERSTANDING to comprehend in specific detail the
written works that the would-be alchemist has been studying.

To my knowledge this UNDERSTANDING does not come all at
once... if at all.

I appears that God, Hu, The Force whatever you choose to call IT
deals out this UNDERSTANDING as he sees fit, and in his time only.

If you have not done the required amount of study, then the
UNDERSTANDING has nothing to work with.

THIS IS THE IMPORTANCE OF DEVOUT STUDY !!!

This Force knows us better than we do.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 11:16 AM
No, I love this answer, and that's because I agree 100%

You see my friends, I am a close friend of our 'God'

He has already opened up my understandings, and it is correct, that without the study, the understanding has nothing to latch onto.

I've been reading Andro's recommendations list and I'm back on the right path I believe, I've found more info that I was in desperate need of, and I believe that I'm back on the path toward stonehood.

Couldn't have done it without the tuff love.

Andro, thank you so much. Dispite all our differences, your guidance has been quite literally priceless.

I would like to share with you, some of my understanding. Use both the rain and dew together. You will certainly receive better results than the dew on it's own.

"The above is like the below,
To accomplish the miracles of One Thing"

My speaking about the stone, is now finished. Something about drawing close has brought me the peace I need to shut my big mouth.

I'm well on my way now, and I'm never looking back :)

Andro
03-02-2017, 01:51 PM
I would like to share with you, some of my understanding. Use both the rain and dew together. You will certainly receive better results than the dew on its own.

Dew, rain, hail, snow and the like are relatively quite 'poor' in corporeal Spirit/Nitre/Secret Fire.

You may want to look into something that is more akin to 'dew on steroids'.

But of course, if you choose this sort of path and have reason to do additional work, you can collect rather large quantities and/or find a way to concentrate the Spirit/Fire.

Also, if you choose to actually work this way, read everything you can get your hands on that deals with with dew/rain/etc... RAMS has quite a few texts on this. Some R+C texts deal with this as well.

z0 K
03-02-2017, 04:52 PM
I wouldn't call Galena a 'guess' so much.

There are texts that say that 'The Stone of Saturn' was the true philosophers stone. I do not agree with that statement, but I do believe it will make a stone that is a powerful detoxifier.

The art of distillation says that the stone of Saturn is such an effectual medicine, that if one can procure it, he need do very little else to find health and well being.

The reason that I have asked this question, and indeed, have a desire to dry distill lead Sulfide powder, is because of the Vinegar distillation thread, zko(?)'s hint about philosophical smokes, and yours, Mr Black and Andro's constant reminder that "I'm not thinking alchemically"

Since, Spagyrics have made philosophical waters with what is essentially a closed system, I am hoping that interesting results can be had in a closed system in the mineral realm.

It does not look like you have taken my advice and read Hollandus plant work. There is no such thing as “Lead Alchemy.” Strive to be an alchemist not a Babylonian. Over the years several enthusiastic and impatient novices have killed themselves with lead work and mercury and antimony. None of those elements are of much value in alchemy lab protocols.

Your last statement here demonstrates a level of persistent stupidity that is very dangerous to your future health if you continue on that voyage. Right now you are closer to death than entrance to the mineral realm.

Why would anyone want to join you on a voyage of stupidity? You cannot fix Stupid. Now self discovery is a noble voyage to undertake. Stick with that and keep hope alive for yourself.

If you wish to continue self discovery through alchemy take this to heart: no one can successfully jump into what has been called the mineral kingdom before achieving success in the plant kingdom. Study Hollandus then Ripley. Ask questions based on your readings of the same. Then develop an outline for proceeding in your lab. If you can make an alchemical plant stone (not a Kalec or Bartlett spagyric stone) then you might be able to ascertain what is the great secret essential to gain entry into the mineral realm.

Schmuldvich
03-02-2017, 06:09 PM
Friend, when you stop following the exact words & procedures (recipes) of those before you and start focusing on the spirit of what they were striving to convey to you then and only then will things start to become less confusing. You are still stuck in your old ways of taking things literally, as proven by your recent comments on Galena.

What is Galena? ...You said it yourself; it is "Lead" and "Sulphur" ...The answer you seek has already been answered by yourself but you lack the Understanding needed to comprehend what you are actually talking about. Again, reading and paralleling the words of the Ancients (which will take you a few MONTHS or YEARS) will give you a clearer understanding of the Mysteries you seek.

Myself and countless others here have told you this every possible way we know how. We admire your enthusiasm but dislike your naiivity, immaturity, and blatant disregard for Wisdom that is being shared with you.

NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW TO PROCEED.

Even the Sages of the past (including the old Alchemists like Bartlett and Dubois whom you have apparently read) words may appear literal, but even they never laid it out fully for the honest Seeker; they always kept something out and "wrote between the lines" so that those who have a foundational understanding of Alchemy could comprehend. Many Alchemist refer to these ommissions as Keys to the Work. When you take the time to parallel the words of the Wise, some of these Keys wil become more clear to you. Processes will begin to appear more straightforward than you ever imagined!

People like Krisztian rarely post here anymore but their trickles of Wisdom still remain on this forum. Remember Chasm? He posted some of the most valuable information this forum has ever seen yet it is all buried in the fluff, ignorance, pomp, and ego this forum attracts.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 09:41 PM
It does not look like you have taken my advice and read Hollandus plant work. There is no such thing as “Lead Alchemy.” Strive to be an alchemist not a Babylonian. Over the years several enthusiastic and impatient novices have killed themselves with lead work and mercury and antimony. None of those elements are of much value in alchemy lab protocols.

Your last statement here demonstrates a level of persistent stupidity that is very dangerous to your future health if you continue on that voyage. Right now you are closer to death than entrance to the mineral realm.

Why would anyone want to join you on a voyage of stupidity? You cannot fix Stupid. Now self discovery is a noble voyage to undertake. Stick with that and keep hope alive for yourself.

If you wish to continue self discovery through alchemy take this to heart: no one can successfully jump into what has been called the mineral kingdom before achieving success in the plant kingdom. Study Hollandus then Ripley. Ask questions based on your readings of the same. Then develop an outline for proceeding in your lab. If you can make an alchemical plant stone (not a Kalec or Bartlett spagyric stone) then you might be able to ascertain what is the great secret essential to gain entry into the mineral realm.

Yes, forgive me, when a novice enters the realms of this kind of learning, and with no teacher, one quickly becomes entangled with the likes or Bartlett ect...

I do see the validity in what your saying and will study Hollandus religiously. Thank you.

elixirmixer
03-02-2017, 09:53 PM
Friend, when you stop following the exact words & procedures (recipes) of those before you and start focusing on the spirit of what they were striving to convey to you then and only then will things start to become less confusing. You are still stuck in your old ways of taking things literally, as proven by your recent comments on Galena.

What is Galena? ...You said it yourself; it is "Lead" and "Sulphur" ...The answer you seek has already been answered by yourself but you lack the Understanding needed to comprehend what you are actually talking about. Again, reading and paralleling the words of the Ancients (which will take you a few MONTHS or YEARS) will give you a clearer understanding of the Mysteries you seek.

Myself and countless others here have told you this every possible way we know how. We admire your enthusiasm but dislike your naiivity, immaturity, and blatant disregard for Wisdom that is being shared with you.

NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW TO PROCEED.

Even the Sages of the past (including the old Alchemists like Bartlett and Dubois whom you have apparently read) words may appear literal, but even they never laid it out fully for the honest Seeker; they always kept something out and "wrote between the lines" so that those who have a foundational understanding of Alchemy could comprehend. Many Alchemist refer to these ommissions as Keys to the Work. When you take the time to parallel the words of the Wise, some of these Keys wil become more clear to you. Processes will begin to appear more straightforward than you ever imagined!

People like Krisztian rarely post here anymore but their trickles of Wisdom still remain on this forum. Remember Chasm? He posted some of the most valuable information this forum has ever seen yet it is all buried in the fluff, ignorance, pomp, and ego this forum attracts.

The Galena was jut an exercise in closed Yates Spagyrics, I said many times that I did not believe that it leads to the stone. When I asked for people's opinions, I meant, "does this path lead to anything?" Not to the stone.

Your right about the rest Mr. Smernoff, I am new here, and the thrill of being able to finally (I am 28) talk to people that have a similar interest to me has been quite exciting, exillirating even, bringing bak my inner child and the joy I have felt, while unleashing my inner baby alchemist has been absolutely wonderful. I'm sorry if ..... I sorry that I DID get ahead of myself on quite a number of occasions, and that I valued the shared wisdoms as naught, I realise now that if I have any chance of success, I will find it no where else, then in the instructions given to me, to become humble, to study first and ask questions later. To be mindful of others.

Hopefully you can all forgive me for my less then worthy behaviours.

Anyway, back to work (Hermetic Triumph)

E.M.

Hellin Hermetist
03-03-2017, 11:02 AM
Mr. Black, one could read the alchemical text for a lifetime and not learn this language. How does one learnt it?

Vicot, in his scholies at the poem named "The Grand Olympe", gives the real meaning of all those decknames used by the ancient alchemists. There you can find deciphered all the kabal of Raymond Lulle, with the exception of the most important point, the nature of the first menstrual.

Hellin Hermetist
03-03-2017, 11:24 AM
It does not look like you have taken my advice and read Hollandus plant work. There is no such thing as “Lead Alchemy.”

In the meantime, the same Hollandus has written a whole treatise about a stone made of Saturn (metallic lead not galena).


Strive to be an alchemist not a Babylonian. Over the years several enthusiastic and impatient novices have killed themselves with lead work and mercury and antimony. None of those elements are of much value in alchemy lab protocols.

Yeah, thats the opinion of some alchemists, mainly of the late Rosicrucian sect. Geber, on the other hand, and with him D' Espagnet, Bernard of Tresne in his Epistle to Thomas of Bononia, the author of the book named Livre de Laveures, Philalethes and some others, affirms that metallic mercury is essential to the work, not in his whole substance, but only what they call its middle substance freed from its phlegmatic humidity and an arsenical earth.

elixirmixer
03-03-2017, 12:24 PM
I believe we can not deny that there are many matter that can be brought to their red crystalline form, all with a particular virtue.

While I do not know whether lead can bring the the true stone I'm not sure, but I wouldn't mind finding out, while I still doubt my experiments will produce a stone of Saturn.

If I remember correctly, I believe in the Sophialic Hydrolith, it mentions that all earths can be brought forth into a pure water.

Perhaps G.C.Homer suggests likewise.

Dwellings
03-03-2017, 01:16 PM
In the meantime, the same Hollandus has written a whole treatise about a stone made of Saturn (metallic lead not galena).



Yeah, thats the opinion of some alchemists, mainly of the late Rosicrucian sect. Geber, on the other hand, and with him D' Espagnet, Bernard of Tresne in his Epistle to Thomas of Bononia, the author of the book named Livre de Laveures, Philalethes and some others, affirms that metallic mercury is essential to the work, not in his whole substance, but only what they call its middle substance freed from its phlegmatic humidity and an arsenical earth.

If you had read the clues that Hollandus scattered across the text and combined them, you would have without a doubt come to the conclusion to that "Saturn" is not Lead but some other mineral and would have also discovered its vulgar name.

You sure about metallic merucry, read Hermetic Triumph.

zoas23
03-03-2017, 04:40 PM
Remember Chasm? He posted some of the most valuable information this forum has ever seen yet it is all buried in the fluff, ignorance, pomp, and ego this forum attracts.

O.K... He had both good and bad ideas and, as far as I remember, during his short stay, the one who was often discussing ideas with him in a friendly way was me... BUT he was truly trolling mostly everyone else just because. He mostly "asked" to get banned... and I have a good memory. Yes, he shared interesting information in public, but if often came in an envelope of fluff, ignorance, pomp and ego.... and "trolling" random persons (not me, but several others). We are all responsible for the consequences of our actions and he was not an exception.

Going back to the last posts of this thread... Alchemy is not chemistry, but a Hermetic practice. Thus travelling though different materials and mixing them is an excellent way of arriving nowhere.... Galena, Antimony, Cinnabar... you can boil them all... but that's NOT the point.
Hmmm... I would print the Emerald Tablet and try to find out what the hell is it talking about, since the Galena, the Antimony or Cinnabar do not travel above and below...

I also suggest a lot "Speculum Sophicum Rhodostauricum" and "Ara Foeris Theraphici", which do not contain any "recipe", but both of them explain some important issues veiled under a fascinating allegory (quite similar to the "Open Entrance to the closed Palace of the King", but more metaphorical than this last one... though a good read because of such thing, because the über-allegorical way makes it quite hard to get "confused").... and you get that the "collegium", "palace" or "castle" can't be the Galena or any other metal... and both of them are like a nice prelude to "the open entrance to the closed palace".

[They are also interesting as to see how the path has changed a lot by the times of Sincerus Renatus, who is using a very different logic]

Hellin Hermetist
03-03-2017, 04:52 PM
If you had read the clues that Hollandus scattered across the text and combined them, you would have without a doubt come to the conclusion to that "Saturn" is not Lead but some other mineral and would have also discovered its vulgar name

Ok. If you had studied the treatise, you should have known by now, that Hollandus doesnt use any decknames and allegorical terms, but describes a certain process in clear words. In his process, firstly you dissolve metallic lead in distilled vinegar many times to create pure sugar of lead (lead acetate). You divide your metallic salt in two parts. You heat the first part of your salt in a gratuated fire, till it receives a highly red colour. This oxidised salt is what Hollandus calls his red sulfur made from Saturn. Neri the priest, used this red salt to give to molten glass a beautiful red colour, and says that he had learned this procedure from Hollandus himself. To return to the work. Hollandus volatilizes the other part of the salt in two different ways, to make what he calls Water of Paradise. He joins the fixed and the volatile part via solution and coagulation to make his stone. That is his procedure. No secret terms and allegories about dragons here. Respour and De Locques describe similar procedures, but the use zinc acetate instead of lead.



You sure about metallic merucry, read Hermetic Triumph.

So what? The supposed adept who wrote Hermetic Triumph puts his faith in a mineral substance and rejects mercury and gold, and disagree in this point with Geber, D' Espagnet, Bernard of Tresne, Philalethes and others supposed adepts, who put their faith in metallic mercury and metallic gold. But I can go that even further. Christophorus Parisianus and his followers disagree with the above adepts, they reject all the mineral substances and make their first solvent using wine, in which solvent they dissolve the metallic bodies to create their sulfurs. The author of Recreation Hermetics, on the other hand, says that we must use a magnet to attract an unspecified substance under a watery form, and after that create the three philosophical salts (the fixed, the volatile and the neutral) from this watery substance. So it seems that all the supposed adepts dont agree with each other, and only Fulcanelli, the author of Hermetic Triumph and some others are in par with your opinion.

Andro
03-03-2017, 06:18 PM
All very much so, but the bloke (who only a short while ago was looking for an apprentice) and who apparently hasn't read most of the works cited here - I think for now he can do without the added confusion of different paths and (seemingly or not) contradicting authors. The priority (IMO) is for him to be SAFE before anything else, do some fundamental reading (Golden Chain, etc...) and stay away from potentially dangerous/toxic matters and practices, at least at this time.

Schmuldvich
03-03-2017, 06:24 PM
Ok. If you had studied the treatise, you should have known by now, that Hollandus doesnt use any decknames and allegorical terms, but describes a certain process in clear words.

Hollandus wrote to his "Sons" and "Brothers" in the Art. It is foolish to believe he wrote openly without veiled speach. This way of thinking will not get you far, especially if you are still at the elementary belief that he worked with and was teaching about actual lead. To each his own though. I would love for you to prove me wrong here!

JDP
03-03-2017, 08:52 PM
Ok. If you had studied the treatise, you should have known by now, that Hollandus doesnt use any decknames and allegorical terms, but describes a certain process in clear words. In his process, firstly you dissolve metallic lead in distilled vinegar many times to create pure sugar of lead (lead acetate). You divide your metallic salt in two parts. You heat the first part of your salt in a gratuated fire, till it receives a highly red colour. This oxidised salt is what Hollandus calls his red sulfur made from Saturn. Neri the priest, used this red salt to give to molten glass a beautiful red colour, and says that he had learned this procedure from Hollandus himself. To return to the work. Hollandus volatilizes the other part of the salt in two different ways, to make what he calls Water of Paradise. He joins the fixed and the volatile part via solution and coagulation to make his stone. That is his procedure. No secret terms and allegories about dragons here. Respour and De Locques describe similar procedures, but the use zinc acetate instead of lead.


The problem is that if you follow such instructions the end result the author claims does not happen. So we are confronted with two general possibilities:

1- The author lied and he actually never obtained any such results by following such procedures as he describes, or, alternatively, the author was just incorrectly making assumptions (either based on blind faith on someone else's claims or from his own theories/speculation) that such a process would work, but he never actually bothered to test it

2- There is a "trap" in such descriptions, and such authors have either omitted important information or hidden one or more of the ingredients used in the operations under misleading names for other substances (example: Weidenfeld says that what such deceitful apparently very clear instructions in the works of the "adepts" hide is the real composition of the solvent, in this case the "vinegar" used to dissolve the lead, which is not the common vinegar but the one prepared with the secret solvent of alchemy)

The second choice is the one that the majority of alchemists choose in order to explain such discrepancies/paradoxes, while the first one is the one that ordinary chemists and historians of science choose in order to try to explain the same problem: the "recipes" do NOT work as prescribed.

PS: I am here talking about the "recipes" found in some ALCHEMY texts, properly, which pretend to be clear instructions for preparing either the Stone/Elixir or some other related powerful "particular" tinctures. I am not talking about the transmutation processes described in CHYMICAL texts, such as those of Glauber, Becher, Kunckel, Juncker, etc. (i.e. authors who do not claim to be "adepts"), where they are obviously meant to be understood literally.

Regarding Neri: what he prepared following the instructions in Hollandus' text was just a purified red lead (i.e. lead tetroxide), not, as he imagines, any "sulphur" of lead. And he used it in place of common red lead as the basis of mixtures for making glasses of various colors (obviously by adding the appropriate metallic oxides to the glass.)


So what? The supposed adept who wrote Hermetic Triumph puts his faith in a mineral substance and rejects mercury and gold, and disagree in this point with Geber, D' Espagnet, Bernard of Tresne, Philalethes and others supposed adepts, who put their faith in metallic mercury and metallic gold. But I can go that even further. Christophorus Parisianus and his followers disagree with the above adepts, they reject all the mineral substances and make their first solvent using wine, in which solvent they dissolve the metallic bodies to create their sulfurs. The author of Recreation Hermetics, on the other hand, says that we must use a magnet to attract an unspecified substance under a watery form, and after that create the three philosophical salts (the fixed, the volatile and the neutral) from this watery substance. So it seems that all the supposed adepts dont agree with each other, and only Fulcanelli, the author of Hermetic Triumph and some others are in par with your opinion.

Not at all, in fact, the majority of alchemists say that they are all talking about the same things, except many like to use different guises to describe the same empirical truths. Some like to use "wine" as an analogy for the true operations, others like to use "amalgams" for the same purpose, others operations with "dew", others with "eggs", others with "clay", and so forth. What they criticize are those "fools", "sophists", "puffers", etc. who take such instructions literally and do actually go on to work on them as they are and try to make the Stone/Elixir, and, of course, totally fail in the end. This type of discussions about mistaken or literal interpretations of apparently clear alchemical instructions can already be found even as far back as the Alexandrian & Byzantine texts. The Arabic literature on the subject also has recurring discussions on this topic of mistaken/literal interpretations of the statements of the "sages". So it is not something that arose later on with the Latin and vernacular texts. From what most of these older alchemists say, it is already obvious that the entire mystery of alchemy revolves around the preparation of a peculiar "water" or solvent used in alchemical operations. Even writers who are otherwise surprisingly clear adopt quite a different and more obscure style when it comes to having to give any explanations regarding this "water" and its preparation. You can in fact say that this secret solvent is what separates "alchemy" from "chymistry", and from the later "chemistry" as well. Alchemy wholly depends on it. Chymistry and chemistry do not know how to prepare this solvent and do not depend on it for its operations.

Illen A. Cluf
03-03-2017, 09:27 PM
Very nicely worded, JDP! I totally agree with everything you said.

I agree strongly that finding the "solvent" is the only major key to Alchemy. It can never be found by interpreting the texts literally, although there are 'some' things that they say that CAN be treated literally. For example, when they say to use purified metallic gold as a ferment in the final operation to convert the Medicine to a transmutation powder. There are many texts that state that this is to be considered literally, while almost everything else is to be treated allegorically. Thus, when they say to use Antimony, you be be absolutely certain that common Antimony (or Stibnite) is not intended. When they say to use Saturn (Lead), you can be absolutely certain that metallic lead is not intended. The "water" used for the solvent that they mention, is not common Dew, Urine, Wine, acetate, etc.

The solvent involves both a dry mineral (or minerals), and a liquid 'fire'. The "water" used for the solvent that they mention, is not common Dew, Urine, Wine, acetate, etc.

Awani
03-03-2017, 09:32 PM
...it is already obvious that the entire mystery of alchemy revolves around the preparation of a peculiar "water" or solvent used in alchemical operations. Even writers who are otherwise surprisingly clear adopt quite a different and more obscure style when it comes to having to give any explanations regarding this "water" and its preparation. You can in fact say that this secret solvent is what separates "alchemy" from "chymistry", and from the later "chemistry" as well. Alchemy wholly depends on it. Chymistry and chemistry do not know how to prepare this solvent and do not depend on it for its operations.

So you mean that all lab alchemists that are in the know have the entire procedure from A to Z except they don't know what the "solvent" is?

:cool:

z0 K
03-03-2017, 09:50 PM
In the meantime, the same Hollandus has written a whole treatise about a stone made of Saturn (metallic lead not galena).



Yeah, thats the opinion of some alchemists, mainly of the late Rosicrucian sect. Geber, on the other hand, and with him D' Espagnet, Bernard of Tresne in his Epistle to Thomas of Bononia, the author of the book named Livre de Laveures, Philalethes and some others, affirms that metallic mercury is essential to the work, not in his whole substance, but only what they call its middle substance freed from its phlegmatic humidity and an arsenical earth.

Well, you can certainly try to follow Hollandus’ Saturn work with Pb instead of “Saturn.” Have you?

By lab protocols I am referring specifically to having the Philosophical mercury and sulfur obtained from the vegetable kingdom. You can also obtain a form of them from the animal kingdom but it is not quite the same. I prefer the vegetable mercury and sulfur.

Here is part of the lab protocol of George Ripley detailed in his Marrow of Alchemy. You will also find in that treatise the true composition of his Adrop and Sericon. No lead in any of that.

I do think that metals including Hg can be used to make various menstrums when fermented in the Philosophers’ Mercury. I have not done much experimenting in that direction in several years because it seems from the literature that way is aiming at the transmutation of metals not the Elixir of Life. The Elixir of Life so it is written is made from the stinking menstrum prepared from plants Philosophically processed. Hollandus gives the most detailed lab processes for that.

The excerpt from Ripley’s Marrow of Alchemy below is a lot to read and it is very easy to fall into the mental rut of taking his words literally and losing focus on what he is saying as he describes the protocols. Nearly everything described here I have seen in my lab pursuing the process to the vegetable stone.

Preface to the Arch-Bishop of York

“IX. Since then it is so, in what thing is our Gold to be found? Is it not in Mercury, which is called Quick or living Gold? Raymondus saith, He that will reduce Quick Gold into thin water, must make it, do it, and Work it by its contrary. For saith he, Quick or living Gold, has in its self, four Natures, and four humours or Elements. And therefore saith he, if you putrefy its Cold with its Hot, and its Dry with its Moist, you shall not only have the Humidity of all Bodies, but you shall have a Mentruum, which will dissolve Argent Vive for ever. For the least part of Mercury being once dissolved, the dissolved Mercury will always dissolve Mercury ad Infinitum.

X. Mercury may as well be called Quick-Gold, as Quick-Silver, for it contains them both. If Air will make this Separation, we must put thereto divers contrary things, as Roger Bacon saith in Speculo. But this putrefaction cannot be done, till it is dissolved in Water white as Milk, putrefy that Milk 15 days in B.M., then separate its Element, and cleanse its Earth, and after that join it again in equal weight, then is the Elixir made compleat for Saturn and Jupiter. Quick-Gold is Crude, Imperfect, and unfixt in every degree, and yet it is accounted a Body, altho’ there be no fixation in it, and therefore it may be much sooner brought to its first matter, than any other of the Bodies, that have any part of fixation in them, for they must have much Labour and long time to separate them, and bring them back into their fixt matter.

XI. For saith Lully, The Elements of Mercury may be dissolved, and being so dissolved, they may be separated. There be some that think our Resoluble Seed, or dissolved Menstruum, is the water of Argent Vive, made only by it self, because it does dissolve both Metals, and pretious Stones which we call Pearls; and so it is. Now how this dissolving Menstruum is made, not only Raymond seems to shew, but Roger Bacon in like manner in his Speculum Alchymia, were he saith, put the Body which is most weighty, into a distillatory, and draw forth thereof, its Sweet Rose, or Dew, with a little Wind, or Breath: For betwixt every drop of Water, comes forth a Breath, as it were of a Man, which is the substance of Argent Vive, and which the Philosophers call our Mercury; which if it be well putrefied before hand, will then yield the more, and issue out forcibly, as it were Wild-Fire out of a Trunk, especially when the Red Fume comes. Thus have you one of our Argent Vives.

XII. To the same thing Raymundus assents, where he saith, then have you that Argent Vive, which is called Ours; and so it is indeed one of Our Argent Vive; altho’ the intent of the same Philosopher in Libro Animae Artis Transmutatoriae, Cap. 2 was touching another more noble and more excellent Water (supposed by some, to be Our Burning-Water, drawn out of the Gum of Vitriol) by the Virtue of which most Noble and Excellent, attractive Water, he doth not only often dissolve the Body of Sol (not as he doth it with the aforesaid Argent Vive commonly dissolved) but also the same solar Body, by force of that attractive Virtue, is disposed in a more noble manner; as I my self have seen done, not only in the Metalline Elixir, but also in the Elixir of Life, as hereafter shall be declared, Chap. 71, 72, Sect.

XIII. It is fancied by an Experienced Philosopher, that Mercury did speak, and said, I am the Father of Enchantments, Brother of the Sun, and Sister to the Moon, I am the Water of Life drawn out of Wine (i.e., out of the Wine of Mercury) I kill that which was alive, and make alive that which was dead; I make Black, and I make White, and I carry in my Belly the Sol of Philosophers; and therefore he that can joyn me after that I am dissolved, and made the pure clean and Silver like Water, called Lac Virginis, with my Brother the Sun, he shall tinge him with my Soul, not only much more than he was before by an hundred fold, but also if he be joined with my Sister Luna, he shall make all things fair and bright. This Lac Virginis is a Silver-like Water somewhat thick.
...

Of the Vegetabe Stone

IV. The true and Pure Spirit is our Silverish Spirit of Wine, which is our Vegetable Mercury, and the true water of the Philosophers. Concerning which, see in Ripley’s secret Concord.

V. Wherefore since the vulgar Spirit or Wine is such, it is evident that there is an Error in choosing of this Principle: for the true Principle (which is the beginning) is the Resolutive Menstruum (which is the Soul of Mercury, and this Tincture is a very Oyl, separate from its foul Earth and faint Water) which, as we know, and according to the traditions of the Wise Philosophers, is an Unctuous moisture, which is the nearest Matter of our Vegetable and Philosophic Mercury.

VI. The which Principle, Resolutive Menstruum, Near Matter, or Unctuous Moisture, Raymundus (in Cap. 6 and Cap. 8 of his Clavis) does call Black, Blacker than Black: The which Black thing or Matter I certainly know.

VII. But since Raymundus saith, that this Resolutive Menstruum, does come from Wine, or the Lees, or Tartar thereof, how is he to be understood? Truly, he himself unfolds the Mystery: Our Water or Menstruum, is a Metalline Water, generated of a Metalline Matter only: So that Raymundus speaks, either of the Resolutive Menstruum or of the Resoluble Menstruum.

VIII. This Menstruum springs from a Silver Wine, which does Naturally make a dissolution of its own Sulphur. It is apparent in the 11 Cap. of Raymundus, that Our Mercurial and Radical moisture is not only Congealed into perfect Metal, by Vapour of its hot and dry Sulphur, but that also the same Metalline Water, being so terminated in the form of a Metal, after its Resolution in Ashes has power naturally of a Menstruum to dissolve Our Stone or Sulphur, and change it to its Vegetable Nature, without prejudice or hurt to its own Nature.

IX. Wherefore he says, that from whatsoever any thing does spring or grow by Nature, that into the same it may again be resolved.

X. If he (viz. Raymundus) speaks of the first water or Resolutive Menstruum; you are to understand that it is (so as he speaks) not a Metalline Water, but after a certain manner: for this water of the Resolutive Menstruum, is both a Sulphurous and a Mercurial Vapour Ignis and Azoth) and by reason of its Sulphurity, it burns with the fire.

XI. This Resolutive Menstruum is our Vegetative Mercury, which is our Vaporous Menstruum, and every burning water of Life, Aqua Vitae ardens, by whose attractive Virtue, the Body of the Volatile Spirit, being fixed by the fire against Nature, is dissolved naturally into the water of Philosophers, and exalted and lifted up from its Salt and Combustible Dregs into a clear Mercurial and Natural substance, which must be Fermented with the Oyl of Sol and Luna, and then is made thereof the great Elixir; with which Mercurial substance we also counterfeit Pearls and Pretious Stones.

XII. We see also, that in Tartar dryed only in the Sun, there are certain Mercurial Qualities shining and giving of Light to the Eye, but the kind of Metals is a Composition of Sulphur and Argent Vive. And therefore, if he means after this sort, then the Resolutive Menstruum, may be taken for a Metalline water; for otherwise it is not Answered.

XIII. Again, Raymundus proves clearly to the contrary, where he answers him who demanded of him; in what is the Vegetable Mercury, in Gold or in Silver? It is (saith he) a simple Coessential substance, the which is brought from its own Concrete parts and proper Veins, to such a pass or point by the Dissolutive Menstruum, that by Virtue of the simple and Co-essential substance, they are able to multiply their similitudes in Mercuries, which have none in themselves, and are also apt Medicines for Mens Bodies, and to expel and put away from them many Diseases, and to restore to the Old and Aged, their former Youth, and preserve them in Health so long a time as God has designed them to Live.

elixirmixer
03-03-2017, 10:53 PM
EDITED NOTE: oops I missed this whole page, this post is in reply to the previous page on this thread.

Andro is definitely right here, my bigger stumbling block has been from jumping from one path, to another, to another, back to the first one, and round and round it goes.

And I've come to the realisation that there are many stones, and perhaps one stone is a super special elusive stone that shadows the virtues of all other stones.

For now, I see the plant work of Hollandus as been a key foundation work if I am to progress practically. Also, because I like this style of stone production, as z0 K suggested, if I cannot make a stone in a more alchemical(?) way than typical Spagyrics, then there is little point, I believe, in worrying about the substance of the true stone.

I believe that some of the confusion revolving around Saturn, is simply because both lead and antimony are capable of going through a similar process, with similar results, after all, they are both minerals of Saturn. Antimony has been held in a higher regard because of it's friendship with gold, however, the spirit of vulgar lead is used as an extracting menstruum to produce oil of gold and other metals also.

Safety is of course always an issue, although not one that will usually haul my work. I have an $800 gas mask, as well as fume hoods I could set up if necessary, so it is, as Andro has also suggested, just a matter of having the experience required to behave sensibly.

It's not the substances that are dangerous, so much as the actions of the practitioner.

It can be shown, that even within the 'adepts' of this forum, there are conflicting methods, matters, modes of thought. Best that we all work in the traditional projectory, plant realm, perhaps animal, and then mineral, in as closed a system as you have the skill to work, for if you cannot create a true alchemical stone from plant matter (or at least a theoretically correct Spagyric stone) then it hardly be worth your time to attempt things in the mineral realm.

I believe that Hollandus was talking about lead, but that he simultaneously knew, that better results could arise through antimony as well.

Hollandus 'deck-speech' is of a different style to other authors. He seems to Viel his keys by repeating himself over and over, rambling a lot, and then he will drop an absolute bombshell in a 6 word sentence, and if your not paying attention, you'll slip past it straight back into the rambling, at least that's how it feels to me.

Example: why spend about 25 f'ing chapters to just say, the white fume is the air element which is Sal Ammoniac...?

Anyway, very excited to explore this new realm which I've been praying for, for a while, I found a video of a cayenne pepper dry distillation, looks very interesting and exciting, plus I've already got about 1kg of cayenne pepper :)

Kiorionis
03-03-2017, 11:33 PM
And I've come to the realisation that there are many stones, and perhaps one stone is a super special elusive stone that shadows the virtues of all other stones.

Very good insight here. I agree with it.

Hellin Hermetist
03-03-2017, 11:39 PM
1- The author lied and he actually never obtained any such results by following such procedures as he describes, or, alternatively, the author was just incorrectly making assumptions (either based on blind faith on someone else's claims or from his own theories/speculation) that such a process would work, but he never actually bothered to test it.

Ι believe that this is the real fact with many of those treatises. The author put his faith in some procedure, tried and retried it and failed, and was too egoistical to admit his failure or to keep his mouth closed. Starkey of course push this deceitful scheme to a whole new level. Others, like the aforementioned Hollandus in his mineral work (pubilshed by RAMS), made a compendium of one hundred procedures of unknown authors which it seems that he never put to the test himself. Here I am refering to the works which give practical instructions, like the works of Hollandus, manuals of Basil Valentine, the work named La Chrysologie Chymique and some others.



PS: I am here talking about the "recipes" found in some ALCHEMY texts, properly, which pretend to be clear instructions for preparing either the Stone/Elixir or some other related powerful "particular" tinctures. I am not talking about the transmutation processes described in CHYMICAL texts, such as those of Glauber, Becher, Kunckel, Juncker, etc. (i.e. authors who do not claim to be "adepts"), where they are obviously meant to be understood literally.

Those authors have also written a lot of bullshits. Especially Glauber. He gives over one hundrend recipes to make gold in your kitchen but he kept writing books till his older age to make a living.



Regarding Neri: what he prepared following the instructions in Hollandus' text was just a purified red lead (i.e. lead tetroxide), not, as he imagines, any "sulphur" of lead. And he used it in place of common red lead as the basis of mixtures for making glasses of various colors (obviously by adding the appropriate metallic oxides to the glass.)

I mentioned Neri, because if I remember right, he said that he learned this process from Hollandus himself in one of his travels. Of course the red salt is an oxide of lead as you mentioned. Do you believe that it is simply minium and that he should have the same results if he had heated metallic lead instead of its acetate salt?



From what most of these older alchemists say, it is already obvious that the entire mystery of alchemy revolves around the preparation of a peculiar "water" or solvent used in alchemical operations. Even writers who are otherwise surprisingly clear adopt quite a different and more obscure style when it comes to having to give any explanations regarding this "water" and its preparation. You can in fact say that this secret solvent is what separates "alchemy" from "chymistry", and from the later "chemistry" as well. Alchemy wholly depends on it. Chymistry and chemistry do not know how to prepare this solvent and do not depend on it for its operations.

I agree with that, but when we see someone like Limojon St Didier say in very clear terms, that we need a reaction between a certain mineral and a certain metal to make our first mercury, and on the other hand we have Bernard of Tresne to write to Thomas of Bononia, that nature gives as the sperms, that are metallic gold and mercury, and fools are all those who sublime mercury with vitriol, niter and other salts and corrosives, which destroy and take away its metallic form, and when we see him add that there are certain bodies appropriate to divide from mercury its arsenical earth and phlegmatic humidity, and let only its pure or middle substance to sublime and ascend, we can clearly see that they speak about wholly different works. They still keep secret the preparation of the solvent, as the one doesnt name the mineral and the metal which have to react with each other and the other the bodies which have to be sublimed with metallic mercury to give us its pure or middle substance, but from what they have say we can clearly see that their ideas about the alchemical solvent do not have any common points. And I can refer more examples like this one.

Hellin Hermetist
03-03-2017, 11:48 PM
Hollandus wrote to his "Sons" and "Brothers" in the Art. It is foolish to believe he wrote openly without veiled speach. This way of thinking will not get you far, especially if you are still at the elementary belief that he worked with and was teaching about actual lead. To each his own though. I would love for you to prove me wrong here!

The old alchemists gave the name of lead to the black stage of the work, which they named putrefaction. If you have studied Hollandus work, you have to know by now that you can never make it agree with Lulle's Testament, Turba and others more ancinet works, if you give the alchemical meaning to his lead. Most probably this work of Hollandus is another treatise that do not give what it promises, like the manuals of Basil Valentine, some pseudipigrapha of Paracelsus and other works of that era.

z0 K
03-04-2017, 01:08 AM
The old alchemists gave the name of lead to the black stage of the work, which they named putrefaction. If you have studied Hollandus work, you have to know by now that you can never make it agree with Lulle's Testament, Turba and others more ancinet works, if you give the alchemical meaning to his lead. Most probably this work of Hollandus is another treatise that do not give what it promises, like the manuals of Basil Valentine, some pseudipigrapha of Paracelsus and other works of that era.

That is right as I have seen in my lab work, “lead” is the name given to the black stage of the work. Putrefaction was not rotting biomass in a watery sludge. It was putrefaction by fire followed by digestion in the crude mercury spirits from the putrefaction. This crude mercury also contained crude sulfur and vise versa. Hollandus processed or digested or purified those spirits in a different manner than Ripley. Hollandus does agree with Lull on the subject of Philosophic wine. He calls it burnt wine.

In fact Hollandus Vegetable Opra does give what it promises for the herbal work as I have seen for myself in my lab. Bolnest also agrees as seen in his Philosophical wine work in his Aurora Chymica. Ripley agrees with Lull as well.

On the surface or superficially the lab work is like organic polymer chemistry. Philosophically alchemical lab work requires the actual work be done by the Philosophical mercury, sulfur and secret salt, along with the purification of the elements received from the putrefaction in the Fire against Nature. The work done by the Philosophical principles is carried out in the vessel of Natural Heat which requires the external warmth of a mother hen’s incubation of her stone, the egg.

black
03-04-2017, 02:36 AM
Arrrr...good afternoon Mr Mixer

Step right this way into my consultation rooms and let Dr Black take
a look at you.

YES...YES...I see the problem, you have a bad case of Alchemic
Overload and also to make things worse a nasty dose of Spinning Head.

My prognosis is that you need to take a bit of Time Out, quiet time, a
little meditation time.

If you are reading a lot with Spinning Head, slight interruptions from family ,
friends, or the cat can create anger overwhelm.

Dev's suggestion of allocating times for different things is excellent advise in my opinion.

For myself I found it helpful to not be in a hurry when I'm reading, and sometimes
I may even spend a half hour or an hour reading one page.
This to me is a form of meditation.


Try not to get caught up in specifics, and down the track the bigger picture may open
with UNDERSTANDING and possibly all the Great Old Alchemic authors will
appear to speak with the one tongue.

Have a good day Mr Mixer.

Next patient please nurse.

Kiorionis
03-04-2017, 02:56 AM
For myself I found it helpful to not be in a hurry when I'm reading, and sometimes
I may even spend a half hour or an hour reading one page.
This to me is a form of meditation.

And a lovely form of meditation it is!

Schmuldvich
03-04-2017, 03:32 AM
The "recipes" do NOT work as prescribed.

PS: I am here talking about the "recipes" found in some ALCHEMY texts, properly, which pretend to be clear instructions for preparing either the Stone/Elixir or some other related powerful "particular" tinctures. I am not talking about the transmutation processes described in CHYMICAL texts, such as those of Glauber, Becher, Kunckel, Juncker, etc. (i.e. authors who do not claim to be "adepts"), where they are obviously meant to be understood literally.

...The majority of alchemists say that they are all talking about the same things, except many like to use different guises to describe the same empirical truths.

What they criticize are those "fools", "sophists", "puffers", etc. who take such instructions literally and do actually go on to work on them as they are and try to make the Stone/Elixir, and, of course, totally fail in the end.

The entire mystery of alchemy revolves around the preparation of a peculiar "water" or solvent used in alchemical operations.

Even writers who are otherwise surprisingly clear adopt quite a different and more obscure style when it comes to having to give any explanations regarding this "water" and its preparation. You can in fact say that this secret solvent is what separates "alchemy" from "chymistry", and from the later "chemistry" as well. Alchemy wholly depends on it. Chymistry and chemistry do not know how to prepare this solvent and do not depend on it for its operations.

Wise words. Very well put, JDP!




So you mean that all lab alchemists that are in the know have the entire procedure from A to Z except they don't know what the "solvent" is?

...But do you know any Alchemists in the know, dev? If these "Alchemists" you speak of are truthfully in the know they would most certainly, without any doubt, know about and utilize our Secret Solvent in their practice.



Philosophical mercury and sulfur obtained from the vegetable kingdom. You can also obtain a form of them from the animal kingdom but it is not quite the same. I prefer the vegetable mercury and sulfur.

Are we not in agreement that our Matter begins in the Vegetable kingdom, evolves into the Animal kingdom, and finally matures into the Mineral kingdom?

The Ancients were not speaking of three different substances obtained from three different physical realms. They were all in agreement that our Matter is but a single substance obtained from what they properly refer to as our Mine.





Then, again, thou sayest that the Stone is prepared of one thing, of one substance, in one vessel, the four composing one essence in which is one agent which begins and completes the work; man, thou sayest, need do nothing but add a little heat, and leave the rest to thy wisdom. For all that is needed is already contained in the substance, in perfection, beginning, middle, and end, as the whole man, the whole animal, the whole flower is contained each in its proper seed. - "The Remonstrance of Nature", by John Mehung 1540


By one operation and way, by one substance, and by one mixing, the whole work is accomplished, while its purity is also one, and it is perfected in two stages, each consisting of a dissolution and a coction, with the repetition of these. It must be your first object to elicit the whiteness of the substance by means of gentle and continued coction or heat. I know that the Sages describe this simple process under a great number of misleading names. But this puzzling variety of nomenclature is only intended to veil the fact that nothing is required but simple coction. This process of coction, however, you must patiently keep up, and that with the Divine permission, until the King is crowned, and you receive your great reward. - "The Book Of Alze", by Anonymous 1625


Morienus answered: "They are made in a single stage, but their names increase in number as the fire increases their heat. Zosimos spoke thus to Theosebeia: I will show you that the wise varied their maxims and compositions only because they wished them to be understood by men of wisdom and prudence, while the ignorant should remain blind to them; clearly it was for this reason that the wise wrote variously in their books of the stages of the operation. There is but one stage and one path necessary for its mastery. Although all the authorities used different names and maxims, they meant to refer to but one thing, one path and one stage. Hence, O king, you need inquire no further on this point, since what has already been said suffices. The wise spoke of many compositions, masses, and colors in the manner of parables, by which men are always misled. Still, they did not lie, but as they learned the craft of this operation only declared what they saw in such a way that it should escape others". - "The Book Of Morienus", by Morienus 1182


You ought to put on courage, resolution, and constancy, in attempting this great work, lest you err, and be deceived, sometimes following or doing one thing, and then another. For the knowledge of this art consisteth not in the multiplicity, or great number of things, but in unity; our stone is but one, the matter is one, and the vessel is one. The government is one, and the disposition is one. The whole art and work thereof is one, and begins in one manner, and in one manner it is finished. Notwithstanding the philosophers have subtily delivered themselves, and clouded their instructions with enigmatical and typical phrases and words, to the end that their art might not only be hidden and so continued, but also be had in the greater veneration. - "Root Of The World", by Roger Bacon 1250


You must know, dear Sons, that I wish to reveal here the real secret of the Art. Therefore I beseech you, by the living God, not to disclose the secret except to your own Sons, provided you believe that they have the love of God and that your soul, and also mine, will not be damned because of it, as great troubles might result. Open your eyes and ears, see and hear the great sacredness in nature, namely, that all Philosophers’ Stones, no matter how they are composed, can be made and completed in the Great Work of which we are here speaking, both to the White and to the Red, in one vessel and one furnace. Remember well what I am telling you: If you combine Luna and mercury with Sol in this manner, you can make the Stone from them, either to the White or to the Red, in one vessel and in one furnace. Therefore, stay with the Great Art, or the great Elixir, as your forefathers did. When you have accomplished that, you may try other operations of Nature with greater confidence. But if you do otherwise, you are not following my advice. To begin with, take in hand the Great Work, because there is no worry in it. Nothing in it is distilled, dissolved, coagulated or purified. In it there are no unknown works or things, no impure things that have faces. Nor do you calcine as there is no need for it. You do not separate any Elements, because they are pure. It is one species, one thing, one vessel, one furnace, and one work --- to the White and to the Red. Therefore, no danger will befall this work. It is nothing but a woman’s work and merely child’s play. Ignorant men cannot understand this simply because this work is so easy. This because the Great Work dissolves, purifies, coagulates, sublimates, and congeals itself! It also makes itself easy to melt, just like wax, and perfects itself into that which it is supposed to become. - "De Lapide Philosophorum", by Johann Hollandus 1670


My Son, I would tell you yet a true word, namely that the whole Work is made by a single, ordinary, common, united with itself Matter, in a single well-sealed vessel, and a single oven; it has everything in it, which is necessary for perfection, and is finished by a single Regimen of the Fire. Who now knows the correct Matter, prepares the same also in a well-sealed vessel, and puts everything properly into its Oven, that one need no longer delay the Work. Forsake all Sophistic Processes, let be their various ovens and vessels; let go their horse-dung, their wood and Coal Fire, such is totally unnecessary. - "Chemical Moonshine", by Johan Fleischer 1739


No true Adept or perfect Artist can deny, but that the whole Work of the Great Elixir may from the very beginning to the end be performed on one only Furnace, in one only sort of Vessel, and by one only Person alone, at a very small charge. Some Impostors would perswade the Vulgar, that Gold, Silver, and many other Ingredients are required to the making of the Grand Elixir according to our noblest ways: which the Doctrines of all the Philosophers, and our own infallible Rules clearly shew to be false: for 'tis most certain, that we neither use any of their Ingredients, nor yet any Silver or Gold, (unless, as we have mentioned, in our third way) till we come to the Fermentation of our Elixirs. - "Aphorisms Of Urbigerus", by Baro Urbigerus 1690





I believe that Hollandus was talking about lead, but that he simultaneously knew, that better results could arise through antimony as well.

Hollandus 'deck-speech' is of a different style to other authors. He seems to Viel his keys by repeating himself over and over, rambling a lot, and then he will drop an absolute bombshell in a 6 word sentence, and if your not paying attention, you'll slip past it straight back into the rambling, at least that's how it feels to me.

Example: why spend about 25 f'ing chapters to just say, the white fume is the air element which is Sal Ammoniac...?

See the above quote by Hollandus. He was not talking about lead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead). His speech may be slightly different than others, but his words align with the words of the Sages when read with Open eyes.

He spends twenty five chapters delivering truths to his Brothers while also giving honest Seekers some meat to chew on, hence the open revelation of "Sal Ammoniac" deeply seated in the middle of the text but spoken about openly. It is these small truths that can help us piece the puzzle together easier in our early studies. When reading the twenty five chapters of fluff your subconscious gets familiar with obscure terms used by Alchemists and starts connecting parallels in your head subconsciously without you being aware of your internal growth. In a few years when you go back and read those twenty five chapters you will be amazed at how much it will speak to you again!



Of course the red salt is an oxide of lead as you mentioned.

Foolish talk!

Schmuldvich
03-04-2017, 04:16 AM
'Our Matter' is sometimes referred to as Saturn (Chronos/Time). As a loose analogy, when 'fake money' is issued, it is actually 'borrowed from the 'future' (i.e. 'from Time').


The old alchemists gave the name of lead to the black stage of the work, which they named putrefaction.



If you had read the clues that Hollandus scattered across the text and combined them, you would have without a doubt come to the conclusion to that "Saturn" is not Lead but some other mineral and would have also discovered its vulgar name.


When they say to use Saturn (Lead), you can be absolutely certain that metallic lead is not intended.




...I believe that some of the confusion revolving around Saturn, is simply because both lead and antimony are capable of going through a similar process, with similar results, after all, they are both minerals of Saturn. Antimony has been held in a higher regard because of it's friendship with gold, however, the spirit of vulgar lead is used as an extracting menstruum to produce oil of gold and other metals also...


http://i.imgur.com/nDEdG1T.jpg

No! Vulgar lead is not used as an extracting menstruum to produce oil of gold or any other metals! What is fascinating though is that Lead is used as an extracting menstruum to produce oil of gold and other metals.

Absolutely in no way shape or form are the Alchemists speaking of vulgar lead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead) when speaking of the Great Work. Andro, Hellin, Dwellings, and Illen put it in their own words. Here are words from the old Alchemists that might help explain it a little better...




Moreover says Master Joseph their Spirit is the fusion of both bodies, by this he does not meane the dissolutions of the bodyes on the fire, but he meanes that they should bee turned into Mercury, and that out of the Mercury the flowers should be extracted, and this is the Stone whereof Aristotle spoke to his King, did men know what a great Treasure they had in Saturnus they would not give it for a small summe of Money, but they would make so much gain by it, that one might bring the whole World into his Subjection; and another Master said, take the things as they come out of their treasury, and lift them up in the highest mountains, and humble them again from the highest mountains to their roots, these are the wisest words which he has spoken openly without all envy and without any secrecy.
"A Chemical Treatise" by Arnold de Villa Nova, 1290


Being indeed our true Quintessence
The Copper Mine is Salt which Saturn call
But Saturn is our Chaos holding all

Perfect bodys dissolve into Water
Are Sulphureous species clean prepared
For fixed bodys are hard Salts in Nature
Which we make flying and the flying fixed
Again the manifest we hide from sight
And which lay hid we bring again to Light

From Foeces burnt our mercury we draw
Multiplication with which must be
Mark well this Secret following Natures Law
And many Wonders art thou like to see
But first prepare then fix, last multiply,
And these three orders follow warily

"Certain Chemical Works" by Edward Nowell, 1445


I enquired, how long they might have to wait in this expectation? Laughing at me again he answered, "Know that the King enters alone without any of his subjects, for although the fount also loves them, yet they do not enter, because they have not yet described this dignity. But the King upon entering throws off his vesture of fine beaten gold, which he delivers to his first Chamber Man called Saturn, who when he has once obtained possession of it keeps it for forty days, sometimes forty two days at most. Then the King throws off the Black Velvet waistcoat, which he delivers to his second Chamber Man, called Jupiter, who keeps it 22 days. Then the King ordering him, Jupiter gives it to Luna, which third person is beautiful and resplendent. She keeps it 20 days. Then the King is in a shift, pure white as snow, or like fine pearls or a white lily, which also he puts off and delivers to Mars, who keeps it 40 days and sometimes two more. Afterwards Mars by the will of God, delivers it to yellow Sol, not clear Sol, who keeps it 40 days. Then comes the most beautiful and blooded Sol who immediately snatches up the shirt." I then asked him what is the meaning of all this, and he answered, "The fount is then opened, and as he had given them his shift, his waistcoat and his vestment, at this moment he delivers to them his blood red flesh to eat and now at length they have their desire." Again I asked whether they always waited so long a time, and whether they had remuneration for their services, to induce them to persevere to the end? He answered, "Four of these Counsellors, the moment they have obtained the white shirt may rejoice if they please, and also enjoy the greatest riches, but this only gives them the half part of the Kingdom. Wherefore, they rather wish to wait a little longer for the end, and wait that they also may be crowned with the Royal Diadem of their Monarch." I asked whether any Physician attended or anything else whatsoever at that time. He answered, "No, nor any thing whatever except the Keeper alone, who excits below a continual surrounding and vaporous heat, except this there is nothing else."
"Allegory Of The Fountain" by Bernard Trevisan, 1480


There are two Bodies of Imperfection of one kind, viz. Lead, which is Black, or Saturn; and Tin, which is White, or Jupiter; which from the innate Root of their nature, are divers each from other, in the profundity of their hidden parts, as well as in those which are outward. For Saturn is cloudy, livid, ponderous, black, without stridor or crashing, totally mute: But Jupiter is white, a little livid, crashing much, a little sounding, and something bright; Of the Differences of which we have already spoken in their particular Chapters aforegoing. From which Causes of Difference, according to more and less, you must collect the order of the Preparations; wherein we have shewed, first, The Preparation of Bodies; afterwards of Argent Vive coagulable. Now in the preparation of Bodies, nothing of Superfluity is to be removed from their profound, or inward Parts, but rather from their manifest or outward.
"Summa Perfectionis" by Geber, 1536


Of his own nature Saturn speaks thus: The other six have cast me out as their examiner. They have thrust me forth from them and from a spiritual place. They have also added a corruptible body as a place of abode, so that I may be what they neither are nor desire to become. My six brothers are spiritual, and thence it ensues that so often as I am put in the fire they penetrate my body and, together with me, perish in the fire, Sol and Luna excepted. These are purified and ennobled in my water. My spirit is a water softening the rigid and congelated bodies of my brothers. Yet my body is inclined to the earth. Whatever is received into me becomes conformed thereto, and by means of us is converted into one body. It would be of little use to the world if it should learn, or at least believe, what lies hid in me, and what I am able to effect. It would be more profitable it should ascertain what I am able to do with myself. Deserting all the methods of the Alchemists, it would then use only that which is in me and can be done by me. The stone of cold is in me. This is a water by means of which I make the spirits of the six metals congeal into the essence of the seventh, and this is to promote Sol with Luna. Two kinds of Antimony are found: one the common black by which Sol is purified when liquefied therein. This has the closest affinity with Saturn. The other kind is the white, which is also called Magnesia and Bismuth. It has great affinity with Jupiter, and when mixed with the other Antimony it augments Luna.
"Coelum Philosophorum" by Paracelsus, 1536


Although our fountain or mercury often is called lead, yet the Wise Men always understood thereby our fountain out of which alone our elixir is prepared; because our Saturn or our fountain, when it has dissolved its magnesia or earth out of which it issued, and is again coagulated together by a small fire, becomes a black heavy earth, which compound is then called the lead of the Wise Men. He that can make the lead unto him the whole Art is open, for in it lies hid the Gold and Silver of the Wise Men; that is the white and red sulphur tinging all imperfect metals either into Gold or Silver. Of this lead or Saturn the poets have written much, telling us that Saturn devours all his children, etc. Note this. His Sulphur consumes all that is hid in the matter enclosed in its belly, digests and concocts it to its ripeness. But Jupiter, observing this, with sharp scythe cuts off the stones of his father Saturn and throws them into the sea, because the white sulphur, which in the operation appears after blackness, abolishes by his piercing power, which is here called the scythe, the strong power of the black sulphur called Saturn and throws the same into the sea. That black sulphur comes to be dissolved and changed into a sea, out of which the fair Venus is generated which is the green color. Saturn endeavors to devour Jupiter or the white sulphur, but instead of him he swallows a stone which was laid before him, which he spews up again upon the mount of Helicon. There the same was erected as a monument for mortals. Also our Saturn endeavors to devour the white color that appears after blackness, but the same is changed into a stone. For though Saturn devours the stone yet by continual concoction it is cast up again. Our thus dissolved matter is coagulated into the stone of the Wise men, which is dissolved again, and in this manner Saturn always devours a stone instead of Jupiter, which he spews up upon Helicon, until at length it becomes our blessed Stone which is dedicated to Wisdom. Out of this our Jupiter and Latona are born Apollo and Diana. This is the last and perfect coction, in which the white and red sulphurs, that is Apollo and Diana, acquire their plusquam perfection. Hence we see that our Saturn or lead is the father of all the gods, for from him come all the metals.
"The Chemist's Key" by Henry Nollius, 1617


It should further be observed that the Antimony of the Sages with which the gold must be refined before being added to the Elixir, or royal chemical substance (or before undergoing a sudatory bath with ancient grey-headed Saturn) is expressed by the sign [circle with cross at the top]. In the same way, a ball with a cross upon it is put into the hands of the Lord of the Holy Roman Empire, whereby it is indicated that he, too, must experience, and be tried by the tribulations of this world, before he can be peacefully seated upon his throne. To all this we may find an analogy in the aforesaid School of the Cross, and the tribulations and persecutions through which all Christians must pass, and the struggle which they must wage with grey-headed Saturn, that is to say, the old Adam and Satan, before they can enter into everlasting joy and rest. Besides the aforesaid sorrows and afflictions, there are also in this world certain signs and marvels, and great mundane revolutions, which we must diligently consider and perpend. We must first hear of wars, and rumours of wars, various sects, plagues, and famines; for all these things are the true forerunners and heralds of our redemption. Then must come the general resurrection of the dead, by which those who obtain the victory through the Blood of the Lamb (for this second regeneration is begun and rendered possible by their first regeneration in this life) pass into a new and unending life through the final indissoluble union of their bodies, souls, and spirits.
"The Water Stone Of The Wise" by Johann Siebmacher, 1619


The right Mercury or its liquid absorbs the gold in such a way that it is so strongly conjoined with it that they can never again be separated - which common Mercury does not do. Even if it obtains great fixity, the two do not conjoin per minima. Saturn knows how to separate them. What he examines and finds to be stable will remain stable and need therefore not fear any enemy. Of such a nature and capability is also the liquid of the real Mercury. But where to find and obtain him, I cannot report at this time, as I myself have not yet met him, although I saw him for some time at another good friend's. But to me he did not wish to come, although I have not stopped searching for him.
"Treatise On Gold" by Joannes Agricola, 1638


Note first of all that the Philosophical Mercury is not the common one. It is a Mercury fabricated by Nature, it is a water, not common water but the water of our Saturn. In this Mercury lies everything the Wise are seeking, because in its water there is the sulphur, or soul, or living fire, hidden but strong. It follows from all this that the Universal Medicine must not be extracted from vulgar gold. The sulphur must be extracted by the sulphur, that is by the Mercurial water vitalized by its sulphur. If you take gold and throw it into this water, it dissolves in it like ice in hot water. This water contains the power of all sublunary things, and it is of it that the Universal Medicine must be made.
"Spagyric Medicine" by Johann Rhumelius, 1648


Because I will not deprive you of help which I may lawfully communicate, I tell you that our preparation is a purgation. Yet do not we purge by common and ridiculous sublimations or the more foolish filtrations, but by a secret, tangible, natural fire. He that knows this fire, and how to wash with it, knows the key of our Art, even our hidden Saturn, the stupendous, infernal lavatory of Nature. Much more could I say concerning this fire and the proprieties thereof, it being one of the highest mysteries of the creation.
"Aula Lucis" by Philalethes, 1651


It is our Royal Mineral, our triumphant vegetable Saturnia, and the magic rod of Hermes, by means of which he assumes any shape he likes. It is of this water that the Sage uses the words: "Let Alchemists boast as much as they like, but without this water the transmutation of metals is impossible. In Nature it is not such as we use it in our Art; it is a most common thing, and yet the most precious treasure of all the world.
"Metamorphosis Of Metals" by Philalethes, 1668


My Child shall know, that the Stone called the Philosopher's Stone, comes out of Saturn. And therefore when it is perfected, it makes projection, as well in mans Body from all Diseases, which may assault them either within or without, be they what they will, or called by what name soever, as also in the imperfect Metals. And know, my Child, for a Truth, that in the whole vegetable work there is no higher nor greater Secret than in Saturn; for we do not find that perfection in Gold which is in Saturn; for internally it is good Gold, herein all Philosophers agree, and it wants nothing else, but that first you remove what is superfluous in it, that is, its impurity, and make it clean, and then that you turn its inside outwards, which is its redness, then will it be good Gold; for Gold cannot be made so easily, as you can of Saturn, for Saturn is easily dissolved and congealed, and its Mercury may be easily extracted, and this Mercury which is extracted from Saturn, being purified and sublimed, as Mercury is usually sublimed, I tell thee, my Child, that the same Mercury is as good as the Mercury which is extracted out of Gold, in all operations; for if Saturn be Gold internally, as in truth it is, then must its Mercury be as good as the Mercury of Gold, therefore I tell you, that Saturn is better in our work than Gold; for if you should extract the Mercury out of Gold, it would require a years space to open the body of Gold, before you can extract the Mercury out of the Gold, and you may extract the Mercury out of Saturn in 14 days, both being alike good. Would you make a work out of Gold alone, you must labour two whole years upon it, if it shall be well done: and you may finish a work of Saturn in 30 or 32 weeks at the most. And being both well made, they are both alike good; Saturn costs nothing or very little, it requires a short time, and small labour; this I tell you in truth. My Child, lock this up in thy heart and understanding, this is the Stone which the Philosophers will not name, whose name is concealed unto this day; for if its name were known, then many would operate, and the Art would be common, because this work is short, and without charge, a small and mean work. Therefore doth the name remain concealed; for the evils sake which might thence proceed. All the strange Parables which the Philosophers have spoken mystically, of a Stone, a Moon, a Furnace, a Vessel, all this is Saturn; for you must not put any strange thing unto it, only what comes from it, therefore there, is none so poor in this world, which cannot operate and promote this work; for Luna may be easily made of Saturn, in a short time, and in a little longer time Sol may be made out of it. And though a man be poor, yet may he very well attain unto it, and may be employed to make the Philosophers Stone. Wherefore my Child, all is concealed in Saturn, which we have need of, for in it is a perfect Mercury, in it are all the Colours of the world, which may be discovered in it; in it are the true black, white and red Colours, in it is the weight, it is our Lattin.
"A Work Of Saturn" by Isaac Hollandus, 1670


Now the difference between that which is taken out of the Mine of Sol, and that which is had out of the Mine of Saturn, is this; in Sol the Matter is so prepared, you shall have need of but one Putrefaction, but in that takenout of the mine of Saturn, you must have three Putrefactions , which indeed is the great and universal Work. And thus I have fully and plainly revealed the Matter, the Work is easie.
"The Privy Seal Of Secrets", 1680


In the process of Christ, the Devil said, or thought within himself, "I am alone the great monarch in the Fire, Saturn is my might, and Mercury my life, and I am in, and through them, a Prince and God of this world, and will therefore not suffer, that such another one as calls himself a Prince of Love, should rule therein, but I will devour him in my Wrath, together with his Love." Pilate, a governor or Lord in the dark Saturnish impression, did little enquire after, or concern himself about the spiritual doctrine, Light, Love and Truth of Christ, but only about the government; and upon this only account of Christ's being against Caesar, and his own coveting to be accounted Caesar's friend, he sentenced him unto death. So here also in the Philosophical Work, Saturn, the dark astringent property, does not at all concern itself, with this or that internal loving quality of Venus, being not able to receive anything thereof into its own essence; but only for the pre-dominion is all this great contest. Saturn will not lose the friendship of Mars and Mercury, which both are with him in the same sphere, and jointly make up therein their own government, which needs must be overthrown, if Venus should be permitted to arise, and shine therein, with her Light and Love.
"The Process In The Philosophical Work" by Dionysius Freher,1700


By resisting, we mean,that when melted with them in a cupel, it does not dissipate, and fly off in fume, but remains fix'd. The chemists have two kinds of lead, or Saturn; viz. the Saturn of Luna, or common lead; and that of Sol, called also the Saturn of the philosophers, which is antimony. No bodies but gold and silver resists the first; and none but gold alone resists the second; they term each of them lavacrum leprosorum, or the leper's bath; intimating hereby, that all other metals, except gold and silver, being tested with lead or antimony, fly off in fume. Lead, particularly, they call balneum solis & lune, the sun and moon's bath; or balneum regis & regina, the king and queen's bath; as silver and gold thence come out the purer, while all other metals are destroyed therein. Thus, if a mass consisting of gold, silver, copper, and other metals, together with stones, or other bodies, be fused with ten times their quantity of lead; the stones, and all other bodies not metallic, will flow on the surface, and be easily blown off by the bellows.
"A New Method Of Chemistry", by Herman Boerhaave, 1753


http://i.imgur.com/I5S2jwg.jpg

JDP
03-04-2017, 07:20 AM
Ι believe that this is the real fact with many of those treatises. The author put his faith in some procedure, tried and retried it and failed, and was too egoistical to admit his failure or to keep his mouth closed. Starkey of course push this deceitful scheme to a whole new level. Others, like the aforementioned Hollandus in his mineral work (pubilshed by RAMS), made a compendium of one hundred procedures of unknown authors which it seems that he never put to the test himself. Here I am refering to the works which give practical instructions, like the works of Hollandus, manuals of Basil Valentine, the work named La Chrysologie Chymique and some others.

It should be pointed out here that Basil Valentine makes it clear in those "manuals" that without the "spirit of mercury" (which is just another of the many code-names given to the secret solvent) you will not obtain the results he describes.


Those authors have also written a lot of bullshits. Especially Glauber. He gives over one hundrend recipes to make gold in your kitchen but he kept writing books till his older age to make a living.

Yes, indeed, this was a very common technique among the "chymists" when it came to transmutation: flood the texts with phony processes and give just a few truths here and there in the middle of this chaos of falsity that will discourage all seekers except the most persistent, the ones who will not give up in the face of repeated failures. Becher does the same, so does Kessler, Kunckel, Kellner, the anonymous author of "Alchymia Denudata" (who should rather have named his book "Chymica Semi-Denudata", since it is neither really "alchemical" nor completely "naked": he has also inserted many lies and phony processes in his treatise to make such investigations more difficult for the beginners), etc. But rest assured that a minority of their processes do give the results they say. I have obtained small amounts of silver (of this one I have zero doubt as in all the successful silver-making processes discovered so far it is always isolated through cupellation at the end of the procedures, and only precious metals survive this operation) from several base metals (copper, bismuth, lead, tin) or mixtures of them, as well as small amounts of what has all the appearance of being gold from silver (which certainly did NOT have any visible amount of gold before the chymical procedures; many of the successful gold-making processes in fact involve dissolving silver in nitric acid FIRST, which reveals how pure your work sample is since it leaves no dark calx at the bottom, yet at the end of the procedures the very same silver dissolved in the very same acid again now leaves behind a perfectly visible amount of a dark powder, which when examined proves to have the characteristic chemical reactions of gold, not of the silver it came from.) After you have seen and worked these empirical facts with your own hands you understand well why these chymists, despite never having been able to discover the Stone/Elixir, were nevertheless so adamant in their conviction regarding the reality of transmutation and why they defended it "tooth & nail" against all deniers. They had seen it with their own eyes and through the work of their own hands. You don't need the Stone/Elixir to become convinced of how real transmutation is. Chymistry can provide you the necessary proof of this fact. However, unlike alchemy and its Stone/Elixir, it will probably NOT provide you with wealth. So far all the chymical processes that have proven effective cost more to carry out than the amount of gold and silver obtained through them. You can't even defray the costs of the operations, so let alone make a profit from them. I would not deny that there very likely exist some such processes that give greater yields of gold & silver and therefore do indeed leave a profit for the operator, but discovering any of them is proving to be almost as difficult as discovering how to make the Stone/Elixir itself.


I mentioned Neri, because if I remember right, he said that he learned this process from Hollandus himself in one of his travels. Of course the red salt is an oxide of lead as you mentioned. Do you believe that it is simply minium and that he should have the same results if he had heated metallic lead instead of its acetate salt?

Neri seems to be aware that what he prepared by following Hollandus' procedures in a literal manner is really just a "better" form of red lead, despite the fact that he fancies it is the "sulphur" of lead.


I agree with that, but when we see someone like Limojon St Didier say in very clear terms, that we need a reaction between a certain mineral and a certain metal to make our first mercury, and on the other hand we have Bernard of Tresne to write to Thomas of Bononia, that nature gives as the sperms, that are metallic gold and mercury, and fools are all those who sublime mercury with vitriol, niter and other salts and corrosives, which destroy and take away its metallic form, and when we see him add that there are certain bodies appropriate to divide from mercury its arsenical earth and phlegmatic humidity, and let only its pure or middle substance to sublime and ascend, we can clearly see that they speak about wholly different works. They still keep secret the preparation of the solvent, as the one doesnt name the mineral and the metal which have to react with each other and the other the bodies which have to be sublimed with metallic mercury to give us its pure or middle substance, but from what they have say we can clearly see that their ideas about the alchemical solvent do not have any common points. And I can refer more examples like this one.

That letter of Trevisan to Thomas of Bononia was in fact one of the main culprits in fooling Starkey into thinking that by digesting & distilling antimonial amalgams he was in the right track to discover the secret of alchemy. It should be pointed out that the other texts attributed to Bernard Trevisan are quite different than that one, and do not seem to make such a useless suggestion as mercury amalgams. In these other Trevisan texts, the issue of the "water" or secret solvent is prominent, like in all bona fide alchemy texts.

JDP
03-04-2017, 07:41 AM
Bolnest also agrees as seen in his Philosophical wine work in his Aurora Chymica.

Bolnest in his "Medicina Instaurata" very clearly claims that mercury (yes, common metallic mercury, he makes no ambiguity regarding this) is used in the preparation of the secret solvent or "water" of the alchemists. Interestingly enough, he describes this solvent pretty much exactly as many alchemists from previous centuries do: a white, or "milky", or "silvery" fluid "water" or "liquor". Anyone who has read Arabic alchemists like Ibn Umail or al-Iraqi will find this "coincidence" rather remarkable. They too describe the "water" of alchemy in similar terms (Ibn Umail even entitled one of his treatises "Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth", which plainly refers to the two main components of the Elixir/Stone.) Of course, Bolnest never clearly explains what exactly is it you have to do to the mercury for it to turn into such a white/milky/silvery water/liquor.

Hellin Hermetist
03-04-2017, 11:35 AM
Scmuldvinch, you are trying to prove an alchemical thesis and you use as sources:
- Paracelsus: A doctor and iatrochemist. Not an alchemist. Many pseudipigrapha under his name.
- Αgricola: An accomplished metallurgist. Not an alchemist.
- Faramond Rhumellius: Iatrochemist of the school of Paracelsus. Not an alchemist.
- Eugenius Philalaethes: Christian mystic. Not an alchemist.
- Kenelm Digby: Polymath and adventurer. Not an alchemist.
- Boerhaave: Famous and accomplished chemist. Not an alchemist.

Every work that mentinons Saturn or some black colour isnt alchemical. Next time be more careful with your sources.

Hellin Hermetist
03-04-2017, 11:42 AM
It should be pointed out here that Basil Valentine makes it clear in those "manuals" that without the "spirit of mercury" (which is just another of the many code-names given to the secret solvent) you will not obtain the results he describes.

In Will and Testament he says that this secret mercury is an acid distilled from hungarian vitriol.


In his Will and Testament he affirms that his solvent-mercury is an acid distilled from Hungarian vitriol.
That letter of Trevisan to Thomas of Bononia was in fact one of the main culprits in fooling Starkey into thinking that by digesting & distilling antimonial amalgams he was in the right track to discover the secret of alchemy. It should be pointed out that the other texts attributed to Bernard Trevisan are quite different than that one, and do not seem to make such a useless suggestion as mercury amalgams. In these other Trevisan texts, the issue of the "water" or secret solvent is prominent, like in all bona fide alchemy texts.

Fair enough, but then we have to agree that all the late alchemists who mentioned Philalethes as an accomplished adept (Limojon St Didier and Fulacanelli included) was also fooled and fooled their readers in purpose, as they never had the stone. If they had accomplished the work and had seen all the necessary signs, they should be able to know which treatise say the truth and which give false protocols.

black
03-04-2017, 12:02 PM
Scmuldvinch, you are trying to prove an alchemical thesis and you use as sources:
- Paracelsus: A doctor and iatrochemist. Not an alchemist. Many pseudipigrapha under his name.
- Αgricola: An accomplished metallurgist. Not an alchemist.
- Faramond Rhumellius: Iatrochemist of the school of Paracelsus. Not an alchemist.
- Eugenius Philalaethes: Christian mystic. Not an alchemist.
- Kenelm Digby: Polymath and adventurer. Not an alchemist.
- Boerhaave: Famous and accomplished chemist. Not an alchemist.

Every work that mentinons Saturn or some black colour isnt alchemical. Next time be more careful with your sources.

Hellin you bring up a very interesting point here.

What qualifications are needed to be an Alchemist ???

Andro
03-04-2017, 12:08 PM
all the late alchemists who mentioned Philalethes as an accomplished adept

What's the latest on Philatethes being in fact George Starkey? Because Starkey's lab notes do not quite indicate an 'accomplished adept'...

I remember Fulcanelli mentioning St. Didier, but I don't recall either of them mentioning Philalethes... I probably missed it... Do you have some quotes by any chance?

Andro
03-04-2017, 12:19 PM
Every work that mentions Saturn or some black color isn't alchemical.

In some of the texts that I consider to be excellent, Saturn is mentioned as only one of the 'planetary-linked' stages in the evolution/cooking process (i.e. 'The Reign of Saturn').

Artephius also uses the code-word 'Saturnine Antimony'...

JDP
03-04-2017, 01:27 PM
In Will and Testament he says that this secret mercury is an acid distilled from hungarian vitriol.

Not exactly. He clearly implies that it can be prepared from vitriols, but he does not say it's a common acid, like you would get from simply distilling vitriols as they are (which only gives "oil of vitriol", i.e. sulfuric acid; Valentine in fact several times refers to oil of vitriol, and evidently not as the secret solvent.) The author of the "Triumphal Chariot of Vitriol", who refers to Valentine several times, is well aware of this and he points out that all you will get by simple distillation of vitriols is just the well known common acid, clarifying that a necessary previous operation on them with a special "liquor" is necessary in order to make them capable of delivering the products necessary for making the Stone.


Fair enough, but then we have to agree that all the late alchemists who mentioned Philalethes as an accomplished adept (Limojon St Didier and Fulacanelli included) was also fooled and fooled their readers in purpose, as they never had the stone. If they had accomplished the work and had seen all the necessary signs, they should be able to know which treatise say the truth and which give false protocols.

The problem is that "Philalethes" writes in such a way that it can actually still be open to interpretation. For example, Fulcanelli is well aware of the antimonial overtones of Philalethes, but he implies this is done out of malice, to mislead "unworthy" seekers, that he did not really mean operations with antimony:

"These considerations, based upon an exact correspondence of words have not escaped the old masters or modern philosophers, who, backing them up with their authority, have contributed to this spread of unfortunate error, that common antimony was the mysterious subject of the art. Unfortunate misunderstanding, invincible obstacle against which hundreds of seekers have run. From Artephius, who begins his treatise (26) with these words: "Antimony comes from parts of Saturn", all the way to Philalethes, who entitles on of his works: Experiments on the Preparation of Philosophical Mercury through the Stellated and Silvery Martial Regulus of Antimony, not forgetting Basil Valentine’s work: The Triumphal Chariot of Antimony, and Batsdorff’s assertion dangerous because of his hypocritical positivism: the number of those who have let themselves be caught in this crude trap is simply prodigious."

A couple more examples:

Weidenfeld also caught on the antimonial overtones of Philalethes, but he says that he did this as a cover up, and that he is really describing a way of preparing the secret solvent under the guise of manipulations with antimony and its regulus.

The anonymous author of the "Radius ab Umbra" (Ray of Shadow) mentions that Georg Horn scorned him because he made a positive citation of Philalethes' "Open Entrance", which Horn considered sophistical and false, but the anonymous author scorns Horn back saying that just like many others he has misinterpreted Philalethes and thought he was talking about common antimony when in fact he was talking about "philosophical antimony".

Franz Clinge, on the other hand, openly accuses Philalethes of having written "sophistical seductions" about "animated metallic mercury, as if that would make the Philosophers' Stone" and thus having fooled others into such mistakes. He does not seem to make any apologies for Philalethes.

Hellin Hermetist
03-04-2017, 04:00 PM
The problem is that "Philalethes" writes in such a way that it can actually still be open to interpretation.

Not really. In his "Ripley Revived" he has given the most detailed description of all the stages of the work from the beginning to the end. So I believe that here we have to choose between four options:

i) Philalethes had accomplished the Great Work with his own hands or had observed all the stages of it in the lab of some other adept. He knew the work, his descriptions are the real ones, Von Sucthen, Bernard of Tresne, the author of Livre De Laveures and the other authors who defended the use of metallic mercury was in the good path and those who rejected metallic mercury in the false one.
ii) The detailed descriptions which he gave at Ripely Revived was only products of his imagination. His path wasnt good, all those the later authors who accepted his descriptions and recognised him as an adept were also liars.
iii) Many paths lead to the same point. Both a special treated mercury and other matters can dissolve gold radically and lead to the stages which Philalethes describe. Most of the authors say the truth, but most of them believed that their solvent only was the real one.
iv) The modern opinion. All those paths are false. Philosophers stone is an ancient myth.



For example, Fulcanelli is well aware of the antimonial overtones of Philalethes, but he implies this is done out of malice, to mislead "unworthy" seekers, that he did not really mean operations with antimony:

"These considerations, based upon an exact correspondence of words have not escaped the old masters or modern philosophers, who, backing them up with their authority, have contributed to this spread of unfortunate error, that common antimony was the mysterious subject of the art. Unfortunate misunderstanding, invincible obstacle against which hundreds of seekers have run. From Artephius, who begins his treatise (26) with these words: "Antimony comes from parts of Saturn", all the way to Philalethes, who entitles on of his works: Experiments on the Preparation of Philosophical Mercury through the Stellated and Silvery Martial Regulus of Antimony, not forgetting Basil Valentine’s work: The Triumphal Chariot of Antimony, and Batsdorff’s assertion dangerous because of his hypocritical positivism: the number of those who have let themselves be caught in this crude trap is simply prodigious."


Philalethes never said that antimony is the mysterious subject of the art as Fulcanelli affirms. He said that martian regulus of antimony is the subject we need to animate metallic mercury and make it capable to radically dissolve gold. If, for Fulcanelli, the only problem is the selection of antimony or its martial regulus, that means that he accepts all the other lab protocol of Philalethes as correct, and that we really need an animated metallic mercury to radically dissolve metallic gold for the confection of the Stone.

Hellin Hermetist
03-04-2017, 04:03 PM
In some of the texts that I consider to be excellent, Saturn is mentioned as only one of the 'planetary-linked' stages in the evolution/cooking process (i.e. 'The Reign of Saturn').

Artephius also uses the code-word 'Saturnine Antimony'...

Yeah, for the best authors the codename of Saturn is refering to the black stage or putrefaction. Not to a secret mineral which we have to take to begin the work with.

Hellin Hermetist
03-04-2017, 04:10 PM
Hellin you bring up a very interesting point here.

What qualifications are needed to be an Alchemist ???

Only someone who has accomplished the work can answer that question. The sure thing is that those authors who never pretended to be alchemists and had accomplished the Great Work, like Agricolla, Boerhaave, Digby or Paracelsus, werent alchemists for sure.

Awani
03-04-2017, 09:56 PM
...But do you know any Alchemists in the know, dev? If these "Alchemists" you speak of are truthfully in the know they would most certainly, without any doubt, know about and utilize our Secret Solvent in their practice.

I don't know any such people. That is why I asked that question. It seems that everyone who speaks knowingly about alchemy, people who also "talk down" on others regarding alchemy and all kinds of alchemists in-between... well they all seem to "know something"... yet none has made the Stone. But it seems "they" only lack one piece of the puzzle. And I asked if this piece was what the solvent actually is?

By the above reason (and so far none has come forward to disagree, as my question was ignored...), that means that anyone who KNOWS everything EXCEPT one part... well such a person by default knows NOTHING... because even ONE part is EVERYTHING.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2017, 03:39 AM
By the above reason (and so far none has come forward to disagree, as my question was ignored...),

Your question wasn't ignored, Dev - it was only directed to one individual. When a message is only directed to one specific individual, often others don't really want to intrude.

From my perspective, the solvent is indeed the one major piece of the puzzle. That piece may or may not be known, but it may not have been fully tested out yet. But without first testing it out completely, it only makes sense that it's not really known for sure.

Awani
03-05-2017, 07:23 AM
Your question wasn't ignored, Dev - it was only directed to one individual. When a message is only directed to one specific individual, often others don't really want to intrude.

From my perspective, the solvent is indeed the one major piece of the puzzle. That piece may or may not be known, but it may not have been fully tested out yet. But without first testing it out completely, it only makes sense that it's not really known for sure.

I would say that no one can intrude. If anyone wants a private chat go to PM. ;)

Ok, then it is as I suspected. So if this is the case how can everyone be so sure about everything else? Certainty can only be had if all parts are known. Basically everyone then knows nothing.

:cool:

zoas23
03-05-2017, 07:28 AM
By the above reason (and so far none has come forward to disagree, as my question was ignored...), that means that anyone who KNOWS everything EXCEPT one part... well such a person by default knows NOTHING... because even ONE part is EVERYTHING.

Probably the question is a wrong question... I am each time more and more fascinated with this text: http://atrightanglestoreality.blogspot.com.ar/2016/03/the-mirror-of-wisdom-of-rosy-cross-by.html

And the text is very vague and very clear at the same time.
You need a "Parergon" which is hard and easy to find... This "Parergon" (or "side work") is the main way to arrive to the "Ergon"...

So it's simply an issue of trying to understand how to understand all its principles and work with it as to evolve it (exalt it) in the proper way... which is everything except "easy". Thus it's not a matter of "black" and "white" in which you can only know "EVERYTHING" or "NOTHING".... but it is more like a ladder (which is a typical symbol in a lot of engravings!)... each step of the ladder is quite hard, so it's not true that "one part" is hard, but EACH STEP is hard.... and yet very fun (unless you get trapped into the worst sickness, which is desperation and you'll simply fall from the stair).

Some of the "puzzles" are philosophical, others are practical, others are mixed.
(i.e, you may want to produce something that needs a thermal shock in a glass flask, but the glass will break... so you end up scratching your head for a long time and maybe making drawings as to figure out how to do the same without breaking the flask, etc).

Your allegory of the puzzle is good though: it is not a puzzle that simply needs A piece.... but it's more like a puzzle with 1,000 pieces and you have none of them... so you have to create the pieces yourself.... one by one.

You like cinema... it's a bit like Cinema.... it's a bit like making an independent movie.... you begin with NOTHING... and you have to make each part of the movie by yourself and confront all the problems (and since you have filmed, you know that doing such thing does not involve facing A problem.... but many... and some of them are unexpected: a little stain in the lens can be unnoticed when you film and when you see what you filmed it has ruined the whole scene and you have to film it again).... and yet it's fun, if you enjoy filming.

Andro
03-05-2017, 07:58 AM
It's like saying that if we want to make a film and have no camera, we have NOTHING. After all, no camera = no film (fact).

It's the camera that we need, to 'corporify' (fix) the 'spirit of the film'. So it IS essential, but it's not ALL we need.

So the situation is not Black & White, even if the film can be :)

Although technically, if we have a camera, we can 'film' anything and call it a 'film', just like people do all sorts of stuff and call it 'alchemy'...

So, again, from a pragmatic perspective, if we don't have a camera, we have nothing, because there is no film without a camera to record/corporify it.

Yet, for some bizarre reason, people still go to film school, even if they already have built-in cameras in their phones...

Similarly, you can give someone a bottle of Alkahest and they still won't know how to proceed and manage to spoil it/mess it up. It's a 'talent' most of us have in common (spoiling/messing things up :))


----------------------------------------------------

Awani
03-05-2017, 08:39 AM
I think the allegories have gone a bit too far. :) But basically it verifies what I have suspected for a long time: as far as lab alchemy goes no one has a fucking clue, which is fine and dandy if not everyone involved heavily with lab alchemy constantly tells others, also involved with it, that they are right or wrong.

This thread is about masters and students (teacher/apprentice), and unless one has made the Stone in the lab, one can only be a student.

As far as film allegories go, here is one: The Stone is a MacGuffin.

:cool:

Andro
03-05-2017, 08:49 AM
it verifies what I have suspected for a long time: as far as lab alchemy goes no one has a fucking clue.

The mirror of 'reality' tends to verify/reflect back our beliefs, no matter what they are.


This thread is about masters and students, and unless one has made the Stone in the lab one can only be a student.

Yes, we're all students - but there's Kindergarten, 1st grade, 5th grade, 11th grade, etc...

'Graduation' is a significant threshold, but still doesn't make everything Black & White like you're trying to paint it.

Awani
03-05-2017, 08:59 AM
I certainly do not think it is black and white. I do not have beliefs. I use that word sometimes because I fail to find another, but I lack belief. Although yes fact is belief so guess it depends on the level of semantic depth one wants to take it.

There is pre-school also. And schools for retards or mentally challenenged. All sorts of schools. Fish can also be a school.

So if the mirror reflects, it reflects for us all. That means that there might not be such a mirror at all, and your belief in such a thing creates the reflection for you (and that is no not proof of mirror, lol). In other words self-delusion. As the saying goes, a sword cuts both ways.

I actually don't mind if someone makes the Stone or not. Just being a friendly troll.

:cool:

zoas23
03-05-2017, 09:32 AM
LOL... I am loving the film allegory... maybe because filming is basically fixating the light... maybe because I have filmed.
There is something interesting in INDEPENDENT films (which are the only ones I care about): you often do not know EXACTLY why you are filming... the sense of some things becomes obvious after having done them (well, you have to know WHAT, but the WHY is a bit more mysterious)... and quite often you have to think and find solutions to unexpected problems... and the making of each independent film contains at least one "miracle".

Psyche meant "Soul", but it also meant "Butterfly"... So you can film your whole life and NEVER get this "miracle" that Herzog got with Kinsky and a "Psyche":


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhXq4XfWqpU

... and when you see these signs in a film, you KNOW that you are one the right track.... How? You simply know it... When you have captured such thing, you still do not have the WHOLE film, but you know you can create a film with it. You can't simply walk away and pretend that the "miracle" didn't happen.

Alchemy works very much in the same way.


As far as film allegories go, here is one: The Stone is a MacGuffin.


LOL... no... Wanna know which one is the MacGuffin? Gold.

Awani
03-05-2017, 09:43 AM
Problem with your whole post is that really good films have a twist at the end. Because a film is first of all written, and films that do not have a solid plot or idea to begin with are usually shit. IMO. And if no twist very few accidents. A master film maker needs little help, his/her (never been a her yet) concept/idea is already written.

Yes, you can have intuition that you are on the right path, but you cannot be sure, nor can you laugh at someone else for being wrong.

The Stone is the Macguffin still, gold is more like hiring Megan Fox to star in the lead. Looks good perhaps, but really just a dumb whore.

:cool:

Awani
03-05-2017, 10:18 AM
"To accept some idea of truth without experiencing it is like a painting of a cake on paper which you cannot eat." - Shunryu Suzuki

:cool:

JDP
03-05-2017, 10:24 AM
Not really. In his "Ripley Revived" he has given the most detailed description of all the stages of the work from the beginning to the end.

How is this text supposedly so unambiguous that it cannot be open to any interpretation? If you are referring to the use of actual metallic mercury, even that claim is not without problems, for in it you can find passages like this:

"From what hath been said may appear, the strong passive delusion that hath taken many men of our Age, and formerly, who with the Chymist in Sendivogius, cannot dream of any other Mercury, than that Mercury which is to bought at Druggists, which they take and sublime variously to make it clean, and then with Hogheland mix it with Gold, applying all the words and saying of Philosophers to this their mixture: but when the time comes that they should see the signs specified of the Philosophers, there they fail, it may be by reason of something external to the Gold (which it gets in foliating, or the Mercury, which it gets in washing and purging, which though it be but little, yet it is enough in heat to give a light Tincture to the Superficies) they may with Hogheland, see a discoloured outside, which is nothing; for our Operation is not so trivial, that a man had need of spectacles, and a most clear light to discern it: but it is so apparent, that a half blind man would be amazed at it, for our Body, even the perfect Body is divided, which common Mercury can never do, though a man bless himself never so much in his mock-purgations.

But when as such Work-men have waited their time out, and it may be out again, and see not blackness, then they run into another extreme, and share the fault of their errour (which was only in their Mercury, or withall in their proportion for pondus and heat of external Fire) between both principles, and then say with Hogheland, our Mercury and our Gold are not vulgar, but they are something (no man knows what) which the Philosophers have called Gold and Mercury; which yet are some strange thing which man never heard of, or some common thing, or some vile thing. Thus they vanish into smoak, and all for want of knowledge of our true Mercury."

Which might be interpreted by some as a rejection of "common" (i.e. metallic) mercury. The fact that Philalethes' texts caused different reactions among contemporary readers already should tell you that he was being interpreted in more than one way. This could not have happened if he had written in a less enigmatic/vague fashion and his statements could not be "accommodated" to other ideas. Despite this, the suspicion that whoever "Philalethes" was was in fact working with antimony to "animate" metallic mercury was very common, thus why we find authors from those times already condemning him for promoting this dead-end.


So I believe that here we have to choose between four options:

i) Philalethes had accomplished the Great Work with his own hands or had observed all the stages of it in the lab of some other adept. He knew the work, his descriptions are the real ones, Von Sucthen, Bernard of Tresne, the author of Livre De Laveures and the other authors who defended the use of metallic mercury was in the good path and those who rejected metallic mercury in the false one.

Suchten did not claim that you could make the Stone by manipulating antimony and mercury. That is Starkey's bizarre misinterpretation of Suchten's text on antimony. Suchten's objective with these two substances was actually to try to "synthesize" metals "directly", without preparing any "tincture" beforehand. Modern historians of science refer to these attempts as the "Suchtenian metals". And Suchten actually ends up rejecting all such operations as futile (except one where he says that you obtain a small amount of real gold, but it is not profitable, the amount of gold obtained cannot even pay for the cost of carrying out the operation, so it only serves to "prove" the reality of transmutation.) But this rejection is bizarre in itself, since Suchten claims that his artificial gold and silver can resist even cupellation! He ends up rejecting them because after treatment with the "animated" mercury he says he was able to decompose them, so they failed one of his tests. Personally, if these claims of Suchten were really true I would still consider them a huge success, since most assayers know absolutely nothing about such "animated mercury", so his artificial gold & silver would pass all the standard tests of the assayers and would be declared the genuine articles, as far as the law is concerned. This whole episode reminds me of an older one, where Petrus Bonus refuses to accept that the "puffers" who know how to make silver yellow and increase its density to acquire that of gold are actually making real gold, but in fact something that is mistaken for it, even when it actually passes all the tests of the assayers! Not being satisfied that the assayers' tests are really enough to examine and determine real from false gold, he pulls a couple of his own: he claims that this "false" artificial gold does not amalgamate with mercury as well and fast as real gold, and it also cannot "aureate" other metals (by true alchemical means; in other words, you can't use this artificial gold to make the Stone.) Let us remember that Bonus had the typical mentality of the alchemists: he did not accept any means for achieving "true" transmutations other than the Stone. So he has an agenda to fulfill: anyone who says to have made gold or silver without having made the Stone is either a liar or is self-deluded. Unfortunately for the alchemists, reality is quite different than their agendas. I myself have made small amounts of gold & silver, and I still haven't made the Stone yet. Some among the ranks of the "puffers" & "multipliers" that the alchemists kept attacking and slandering were in fact quite better experimenters than they thought. Some of them DID make gold and silver with their own methods. Later on, during the 16th to the 18th century, many "chymists" would also come to know the empirical reality of some of these methods that the generality of alchemists rejected as "sophistical".


ii) The detailed descriptions which he gave at Ripely Revived was only products of his imagination. His path wasnt good, all those the later authors who accepted his descriptions and recognised him as an adept were also liars.

Or maybe the descriptions are real, but his insinuations of it being made with "mercury" and/or "antimony" are where the problem resides.


iii) Many paths lead to the same point. Both a special treated mercury and other matters can dissolve gold radically and lead to the stages which Philalethes describe. Most of the authors say the truth, but most of them believed that their solvent only was the real one.

This would prompt the questions: then why is the Stone so difficult to discover how to make? And why is alchemy still considered such an "impossibility" by most people? Evidently there can't be too many such "paths", otherwise the chances of any one of them having become "public knowledge" would have been much higher and it would have ceased to be a mystery a long time ago.


iv) The modern opinion. All those paths are false. Philosophers stone is an ancient myth.

Possible, but then a bit difficult to explain the many witnesses, many of them non-believers in alchemy, who saw it and/or handled it.



Philalethes never said that antimony is the mysterious subject of the art as Fulcanelli affirms. He said that martian regulus of antimony is the subject we need to animate metallic mercury and make it capable to radically dissolve gold. If, for Fulcanelli, the only problem is the selection of antimony or its martial regulus, that means that he accepts all the other lab protocol of Philalethes as correct, and that we really need an animated metallic mercury to radically dissolve metallic gold for the confection of the Stone.

In Fulcanelli's time "antimony" already meant the metalloid, not its sulfide mineral (stibnite.) He is referring to the fact that this metalloid, whether you call it "regulus" or something else, is not used to make either the secret solvent or the Stone. And to be even clearer, in another passage Fulcanelli also specifically rejects stibnite as well, just to make sure to his readers what his position was on this.

zoas23
03-05-2017, 11:59 AM
Problem with your whole post is that really good films have a twist at the end. Because a film is first of all written, and films that do not have a solid plot or idea to begin with are usually shit. IMO. And if no twist very few accidents. A master film maker needs little help, his/her (never been a her yet) concept/idea is already written.

Oh... I guess I gotta burn all my films directed by Věra Chytilová, Maya Deren, Marguerite Duras & Agnès Varda.


The Stone is the Macguffin still, gold is more like hiring Megan Fox to star in the lead. Looks good perhaps, but really just a dumb whore.

A good director can turn the vilest substance into gold though... Lars von Trier managed to make Nicole Kidman act as if she was Tilda Swinton.

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2017, 02:22 PM
Ok, then it is as I suspected. So if this is the case how can everyone be so sure about everything else? Certainty can only be had if all parts are known. Basically everyone then knows nothing.

:cool:

Not necessarily. There's no certainty until a theory is put to practice and proven, but that does not mean that the theory was incorrect before it was proven. A theory is only that - an educated guess based on a certain amount of information and study. Some theories are far more reliable than others, such as those based on very little information, instinctive insight or just pure imagination (we have all seen dozens of these). Some theories have connected a lot of more dots than others, seen perfect concordance between treatises, and have made a lot of sense of the theoretical/philosophical parts of the treatises. Some of these theories may also have decoded some of the important allegorical examples into a real working understanding. But, until a transmutation is performed, it remains a theory, regardless of how convincing it appears to be.

Awani
03-05-2017, 06:50 PM
Yes theories. That is it. A theory cannot be claimed as wrong. It can only be something one does not agree with. A belief.

Also as I said you can only take the film allegory so far till it becomes nonsensical.

All I am saying is: there is a lot of members here in the forum who say other members are wrong, when in fact those people that say that has not created shit. So who are they? Nobodies. That is all I am saying.

I am basically trying to preach some humility and "I don't know shit" mentality, because basically (reading this whole thread) that is what it comes down to. A bunch of morons calling each other morons, and then calling the person calling them morons a moron... when in fact we are all morons (and some are mormons it seems). LOL.

Conclusion: perhaps not pretend we know something about the lab process... since it seems everyone has a different view on this process, and no one is sure what the solvent is, and a ton more other discrepancies. It's like watching a crowd of people put together IKEA furniture in the dark.

This thread is a debate regarding who needs an apprentice and who doesn't etc. That is what I am basically targeting my posts at. So don't get confused. :)

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2017, 07:27 PM
All I am saying is: there is a lot of members here in the forum who say other members are wrong, when in fact those people that say that has not created shit. So who are they? Nobodies. That is all I am saying.

I couldn't agree more. I also have often stated that, until one has actually made the PS and tested it with a transmutation, they have no right to say that others are wrong. Having said that, there are certain understandings in alchemy that are common sense, and there are people going WAY BEYOND common sense. Their 'theories' are so alien to alchemical understanding that they border on pure fantasy. They also offer no degree of proof or even references to their fantastical statements when asked. In these cases, I can see why some gently imply that their understanding is most likely not correct.


Conclusion: perhaps not pretend we know something about the lab process... since it seems everyone has a different view on this process, and no one is sure what the solvent is, and a ton more other discrepancies. It's like watching a crowd of people put together IKEA furniture in the dark.

:-) Good analogy! I think the main problem is when people state there opinions as though they are factual. Very seldom do people preface their statements with "in my opinion..." or "I believe that...". Also, when asked for verification or sources, they often get upset or angry, as though their opinion is all that matters and everyone else should just accept their opinion at face value without challenge. I have seen this again and again hundreds of times.

It's time that we all recognize the difference between opinion and fact, acknowledge that others may have valid opinions as well, and stop forcing our opinions on others as though they are fact, and treating all others as apprentices.

Schmuldvich
03-05-2017, 07:56 PM
I don't know any such people. That is why I asked that question.

It seems that everyone who speaks knowingly about alchemy, people who also "talk down" on others regarding alchemy and all kinds of alchemists in-between... well they all seem to "know something"... yet none has made the Stone. But it seems "they" only lack one piece of the puzzle. And I asked if this piece was what the solvent actually is?

If your question is what the Solvent actually is, your question has been answered (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5143-Apprentice-WANTED&p=48255#post48255) a couple times throughout this forum and places elsewhere online too. It is not some big mystery what the Solvent is or anything.



This thread is about masters and students (teacher/apprentice), and unless one has made the Stone in the lab, one can only be a student.

Other than the known charlatans who join this message board from time to time, has anyone here ever claimed to be a Master? Sure, some members post here with more assumed authority than others, but I have not seen any members claiming to be a Master. We are all Seekers here, are we not..?

Dendritic Xylem
03-05-2017, 08:37 PM
Other than the known charlatans who join this message board from time to time, has anyone here ever claimed to be a Master? Sure, some members post here with more assumed authority than others, but I have not seen any members claiming to be a Master. We are all Seekers here, are we not..?

I don't think the real Masters are into advertising.

But, there are some long-time members here who have left some gems. Just have to dig.

JDP
04-15-2017, 01:04 AM
i) Philalethes had accomplished the Great Work with his own hands or had observed all the stages of it in the lab of some other adept. He knew the work, his descriptions are the real ones, Von Sucthen, Bernard of Tresne, the author of Livre De Laveures and the other authors who defended the use of metallic mercury was in the good path and those who rejected metallic mercury in the false one.

I have been reviewing that "Book of the Washings" text and I would like to point out two things:

1- It appears that it is a French version of an older Latin text attributed to John Dastin, called "The Rosary" (this is yet ANOTHER alchemical "Rosary", not the older one attributed to Arnold of Villanova or the anonymous one that has the famous sequence of drawings.) This French version was evidently falsely attributed to Nicolas Flamel. I actually think that even the earlier Dastin attribution is mistaken. Dastin's genuine alchemical texts are quite different in style.

2- The author of this "Rosary" is very malicious in that he tries to make superficial inexperienced readers think that the operations being described are really carried out by making mercury amalgams with gold or silver and submitting them to various heat treatments and distillations. The author is evidently taking a cue from the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova, which had already used this malicious trap. But much like it happens with Arnold's "Rosary", the descriptions of the reactions and the byproducts obtained in this other "Rosary" are also sufficient to "disarm" this trap. Notice that the author in fact describes sublimates, "stinking/fetid" liquids and white/red "oils" among the substances being handled and obtained from the operations. No such things will ever happen by actually performing operations on amalgams alone, by themselves, as the author maliciously tries to make it look like for the uncritical and inexperienced reader, without at least adding other things to them. Amalgams are nothing but simple alloys, since mercury is nothing else but a metal that just happens to be liquid at room temperature. There is nothing "special" about amalgams. You will never obtain any such sublimates, "stinking/fetid" liquids and colored "oils" from any alloys alone, including amalgams. Expecting to obtain sublimates, "stinking/fetid" liquids and colored "oils" from amalgams alone is just as hopeless and silly as trying to obtain them from electrum, pewter, bronze, brass, steel, etc. without adding anything to them, just by heating them alone by themselves. Not gonna happen even in a million years. Any experienced investigator can easily disarm such traps in this type of malicious alchemical texts written in a style with the obvious intent of misleading inexperienced neophytes into wasting time and money in hopeless operations.

Luxus
05-03-2017, 04:02 PM
Any of you guys ever seen one of those fat guys at the gym offering fitness training :)