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zoas23
02-27-2017, 02:33 AM
I'm madly in love with this text. There is a very good version here: http://atrightanglestoreality.blogspot.com.ar/2016/03/the-mirror-of-wisdom-of-rosy-cross-by.html

I am completely lost with just one thing... What does the author means when he uses the expression "Phy"???

I have some ideas, though none of them seems to make a lot of sense:

1) Maybe the root of several words such as Philosophy, Physiology, etc???

2) Maybe the greek letter Phy??? (Well, the "classical" symbol for the "Spiritus mundi acidus incorporeus" is similar to a Phy)... It can't be the "Phy" of the Golden Ratio, because the idea of using Phy to define the Golden Ratio proportion began to be used only in the XX century (even if the Golden Ratio itself is, of course, classical, but it was only associated with the letter Phy is contemporary times).

A second doubt I have is that the author insists a lot of reading the "two books" by Thomas Kempis... the problem is that Thomas Kempis wrote several books, not just two... If I take a wild guess, then one of them is PROBABLY "The imitation of Christ" (simply because it was his "popular book"... I mean, if someone tells me "Read the 2 books by Dante!", then I would assume that one of them is the Divine Comedy... the other one would be a bit harder to guess).

The thread is open to discuss any other ideas of such text...

Kiorionis
02-27-2017, 02:42 AM
The version you quoted uses Phy twice, according to my quick perusal:


O uncomprehending man "phy tibi tuisque?"


Phy: saeculo! in quos incindimus annos.

I am unfamiliar with the language..

zoas23
02-27-2017, 03:06 AM
The version you quoted uses Phy twice, according to my quick perusal:

I am unfamiliar with the language..

It's Latin, but "phy" doesn't have any meaning in Latin....

The first one is hard to translate to English for me, but it would be "Phy for you and your friends?" (or "Phy for you and the ones like you?")... LOL, it's easier to translate it to Spanish for me.

The second one is: "Phy: The World! In which we have fallen for so many years". (An alternative translation would be: "Phy: The Time! etc".... Saeculo can either mean "The World" of "The Time"... it is the dative declension of " saeculum", which is the word that originated the English word "secular"... in most cases I would translate it as "time", but sometimes it is "world").

Kiorionis
02-27-2017, 03:13 AM
At first I thought it was Spanish...

Maybe it is some sort of colloquial expression?

Like, Lo!

It also seems like it's used as a noun. Maybe a name or something similar?

Curious.

zoas23
02-27-2017, 03:25 AM
The author uses a lot of quite weird Latin expressions and sometimes he invents words... though it's easy to follow him when he does such thing (i.e, first time I see the word "Philopansophus"... which would be like "friend of the Pansophia" in the same sense that "Philosophy" means "friend of Wisdom/Sophia")....

But with his "Phy" I am 100% lost.

What I specially like about this text is the two concepts of Parergon and Ergon...
It became "fashionable" to talk about the "Spiritus Mundi", but I am not very much in love with that term because it leads to some confusion (it is my opinion that the famous "Spiritus Mundi" that we get is "Parergon" when we get it -unless someone is using a different method that gives him "Ergon" directly).

Kiorionis
02-27-2017, 04:05 AM
I can agree. When terms or things become fashionable they tend to exclude certain important terms and concepts.

For example Spiritus Mundi and its counterpart.

3+O(
02-27-2017, 05:55 PM
This is probably a contemptuous interjection, "Fie!" in English.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=phy
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fie

BTW, Schweighardt's 'Pandora' mentioned in the Speculum has recently been translated by Paul Ferguson (https://www.academia.edu/21363106/THE_PANDORA_OF_THE_SIXTH_AGE_by_Theophilus_Schweig hart_Daniel_M%C3%B6gling_transcribed_and_translate d_from_the_German_and_Latin_edition_of_1617)

zoas23
02-27-2017, 06:24 PM
This is probably a contemptuous interjection, "Fie!" in English.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=phy
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fie

BTW, Schweighardt's 'Pandora' mentioned in the Speculum has recently been translated by Paul Ferguson (https://www.academia.edu/21363106/THE_PANDORA_OF_THE_SIXTH_AGE_by_Theophilus_Schweig hart_Daniel_M%C3%B6gling_transcribed_and_translate d_from_the_German_and_Latin_edition_of_1617)

Thank you for the PHY... LOL, I was getting dizzy and it was simply that simple thing, an interjection that I didn't know and wasn't in my dictionaries.

Yes, I have the Pandoram (Though I certainly prefer this second work by him, which doesn't mean that the Pandoram is a bad text).

Andro
02-27-2017, 07:53 PM
For example Spiritus Mundi and its counterpart.

What is its counterpart?

Kiorionis
02-27-2017, 09:07 PM
If Spiritus Mundi is the 'below', as a fixt earth, this necessarily implies an 'above'.

I don't know what to call it yet.

zoas23
02-27-2017, 09:53 PM
The "Spiritus Mundi" doesn't have a "counterpart"... and that's somehow a problem.

Which is why I think that I prefer the idea of "parergon" and "ergon".

I know you will agree with the idea that it does not have a name... so it's simply an issue of semantics. BUT I think it is useful to have "words" that make a difference between different states of its evolution or manifestation... as to avoid confusions.

The names are arbitrary... but don't you think that it makes some sense to "divide it" in "phases" and give them useful names?

Andro
02-27-2017, 10:32 PM
What I specially like about this text is the two concepts of Parergon and Ergon...
It became "fashionable" to talk about the "Spiritus Mundi", but I am not very much in love with that term because it leads to some confusion (it is my opinion that the famous "Spiritus Mundi" that we get is "Parergon" when we get it -unless someone is using a different method that gives him "Ergon" directly).

How would you explain, in your own words, the difference between 'Ergon' and 'Paraergon'? The pair has some resemblance to 'Hyle & Cohyle' :)

zoas23
02-27-2017, 10:41 PM
How would you explain, in your own words, the difference between 'Ergon' and 'Paraergon'? The pair has some resemblance to 'Hyle & Cohyle' :)

It's the same than Hyle and Cohyle... Yes, the names are somehow "arbitrary".

Parergon = the water that wets not the hands.

Ergon = what you MAY get if you know how to work with it and "evolve" it, or "exalt" it.

The text I am talking about is quite clear... it invites the reader to find the Parergon and explains that it has SOME value, but that it is simply what he needs to arrive to the Ergon. The Ergon is what you want, but to get it, you need the Parergon first.

So it's really a semantic issue, but at least for me it makes things by far more clear.

3+O(
02-28-2017, 01:11 AM
Would not Anima Mundi the counterpart of Spiritus Mundi? These two terms were already somewhat confused by the time Schweighardt wrote...

Etymologically, Ergon and Parergon would be "Work" and "Before work."

zoas23
02-28-2017, 01:30 AM
Would not Anima Mundi the counterpart of Spiritus Mundi? These two terms were already somewhat confused by the time Schweighardt wrote...

Etymologically, Ergon and Parergon would be "Work" and "Before work."

Very few things are more confused than "Spirit" and "Soul"... because different authors (not just in alchemy) use the terms to mean different things. What ones calls "Spirit", the other calls it "Soul" and viceversa. LOL... I love the simplicity of Greek in which it is impossible to get confused with "Psyche" and "Nous"....

Ergon is work... But quite often it means something a bit different than the English word "work". The 12 works of Herakles are 12 "Erga" (plural or Ergon)...
And this page shows many examples of how "Ergon" is used in the Bible: http://biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm

Parergon is not "before work", but rather "side-work", "secondary work".... A classical example of a "Parergon" (unrelated to alchemy) would be the second work of Herakles: He has to kill the Hydra... but before fighting with the Hydra he has to fight with a giant crab.

Killing the crab was NOT part of his "task" or "mission", he simply had to do it because it was on the way. So it's not exactly "before work", but something secondary that you have to do to reach your main goal.

As a silly practical example, if you are a guitar player and you want to play a song and that's your "Ergon"... but you find that the guitar is out of tune, then you have to tune it first (unless you are a punk rocker!)... so tuning the guitar would be a "Parergon".

The sense that this text and others have given to these two words is a bit "forced"... but it does the trick... You need the water that wets not the hands (Parergon) to arrive to something of a higher nature (Ergon)... Thus this water that wets not the hands is not really your aim, it's more or less like the crab that Herakles has to fight with as to be able to arrive to the Hydra and kill it.