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theFool
03-04-2017, 06:53 PM
In the collection of R.A.M.S. we can find a compendium of Hollandus' works in the mineral kingdom. Amongst them there is an operation I would like to highlight and discuss with you. Under the title "The twelfth work", Hollandus speaks about calcined Sol and Luna and how to get out of them an elixir.
I wonder if he really means gold and silver or is it something else. He also speaks about vinegar and aqua vitae required for the operations. Inspired by your debate here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5143-Apprentice-WANTED&p=48234#post48234) on wether Hollandus speaks simply or allegorically about Saturn being the lead metal, I upload the quote I'm interested into:

(from page 68)
https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol110.png

Then, in brief, he opens up the gold calx with the help of vinegar in order to draw out of it an alcoholic tincture:

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol210.png

The questions are:

- Is the "vinegar" of Hollandus the same as the common vinegar?
- Is his "aqua vitae" alcohol?
- Is his first matter common Au and Ag or other thing?

This recipe is actually a variant of the "acetate path".

JDP
03-05-2017, 08:55 AM
In the collection of R.A.M.S. we can find a compendium of Hollandus' works in the mineral kingdom. Amongst them there is an operation I would like to highlight and discuss with you. Under the title "The twelfth work", Hollandus speaks about calcined Sol and Luna and how to get out of them an elixir.
I wonder if he really means gold and silver or is it something else. He also speaks about vinegar and aqua vitae required for the operations. Inspired by your debate here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5143-Apprentice-WANTED&p=48234#post48234) on wether Hollandus speaks simply or allegorically about Saturn being the lead metal, I upload the quote I'm interested into:

(from page 68)
https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol110.png

Then, in brief, he opens up the gold calx with the help of vinegar in order to draw out of it an alcoholic tincture:

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol210.png

The questions are:

- Is the "vinegar" of Hollandus the same as the common vinegar?
- Is his "aqua vitae" alcohol?
- Is his first matter common Au and Ag or other thing?

This recipe is actually a variant of the "acetate path".

You can answer the question by simply trying to follow the instructions verbatim. Do you see the results that the author claims by using actual vinegar and alcohol? Of course you won't. And what does that tell you? One of two possibilities:

1- The author was lying and he never tried the prescribed procedures, but he thought they would work so he went ahead and wrote them down with an air of authority, as if he or the other authors he is referring to had really accomplished such a thing

2- The author is being purposefully misleading by using words like "vinegar" and/or "aqua vitae" as code-names and he actually meant something else

theFool
03-05-2017, 10:47 AM
You can answer the question by simply trying to follow the instructions verbatim. Do you see the results that the author claims by using actual vinegar and alcohol? Of course you won't. Sometimes it is difficult to follow the instructions exactly. It requires a lot of trial and error to reach the results that the author describes. To make it worse, as you say, some authors purposely deceive or are in ignorance themselves too, or never tried the "recipe" or ..

But I think that even if the instructions were given in detail, still it would take someone a lot of effort to replicate them. For those reasons I would not dismiss this "recipe" as a fake.

For example, Hollandus speaks about calcining the gold into a calx (chalk) and then dissolving it in vinegar. I know this is possible but not an easy task.

JDP
03-05-2017, 01:07 PM
Sometimes it is difficult to follow the instructions exactly. It requires a lot of trial and error to reach the results that the author describes. To make it worse, as you say, some authors purposely deceive or are in ignorance themselves too, or never tried the "recipe" or ..

But I think that even if the instructions were given in detail, still it would take someone a lot of effort to replicate them. For those reasons I would not dismiss this "recipe" as a fake.

For example, Hollandus speaks about calcining the gold into a calx (chalk) and then dissolving it in vinegar. I know this is possible but not an easy task.

Starting from the fact that gold does not really "calcine" since it is a noble metal, that should already give you a signal that there's probably "funny" business with this process. And testing it is not really difficult. It's not like it requires some very unusual or difficult to acquire/prepare reagents. Just reduce your gold to a fine powder (there's several ways of doing this), heat it (without melting it) in a furnace for some time (it won't do anything to gold since it does not oxidize, but do it anyway if you feel you must test the process totally verbatim), then transfer the gold calx to a flask, add distilled vinegar and digest it for a while. Does the gold dissolve? I don't think so.

theFool
03-05-2017, 02:40 PM
Just reduce your gold to a fine powder (there's several ways of doing this), heat it (without melting it) in a furnace for some time (it won't do anything to gold since it does not oxidize, but do it anyway if you feel you must test the process totally verbatim) Hollandus does not say explicitly how to make this gold chalk in this "recipe".
However, we can find relevant instructions in other parts of his book. Also, there is lot of information from other writers too on how to prepare it. As you mention, there are several ways.
It is a white calx soluble in vinegar. It does not melt in high heat.

JDP
03-05-2017, 02:55 PM
Hollandus does not say explicitly how to make this gold chalk in this "recipe".
However, we can find relevant instructions in other parts of his book. Also, there is lot of information from other writers too on how to prepare it. As you mention, there are several ways.
It is a white calx soluble in vinegar. It does not melt in high heat.

There is no such "white calx" of gold, unless you have recourse to special "menstruums" (and even then, the "calx" that is left is said to be a kind of "Luna Fixa", or gold deprived of its "sulphur", and is not soluble in vinegar, as it resists even aqua fortis!) Calcinations will not do it.

theFool
03-05-2017, 02:58 PM
The existence of gold acetate (https://www.americanelements.com/gold-acetate-15804-32-7) is known to modern chemistry. It is not easy to find the chemistry recipes on how to prepare it but some chemists can do it.

From what I understand, one must make first the auric hydroxide and react it with vinegar. Making the auric hydroxide is a time consuming repetitive work that requires patience. I could only locate one online recipe on how to make it here:

http://gold.atomistry.com/auric_hydroxide.html

Upon heating it gives gold monoxide. I think this is the correct gold chalk.

z0 K
03-05-2017, 03:58 PM
In the collection of R.A.M.S. we can find a compendium of Hollandus' works in the mineral kingdom. Amongst them there is an operation I would like to highlight and discuss with you. Under the title "The twelfth work", Hollandus speaks about calcined Sol and Luna and how to get out of them an elixir.
I wonder if he really means gold and silver or is it something else. He also speaks about vinegar and aqua vitae required for the operations. Inspired by your debate here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5143-Apprentice-WANTED&p=48234#post48234) on wether Hollandus speaks simply or allegorically about Saturn being the lead metal, I upload the quote I'm interested into:

(from page 68)
https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol110.png

Then, in brief, he opens up the gold calx with the help of vinegar in order to draw out of it an alcoholic tincture:

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/hol210.png

The questions are:

- Is the "vinegar" of Hollandus the same as the common vinegar?
- Is his "aqua vitae" alcohol?
- Is his first matter common Au and Ag or other thing?

This recipe is actually a variant of the "acetate path".

Hollandus uses pyro-vinegar prepaired from grape vines. The which contains the element fire: a translucent red oil that is water soluble.

His Aqua Vitae is not alcohol. It is the burnt wine from pyrolysis. The which carries the spirit that should be able to bind the gold, Au. I have not done any experiments in this direction yet as I am preparing to run some experiments following Ripley whom I believe is operating similar to Hollandus in this mineral work where heavy metals are used instead of biomass calxes used for the plant stone.

The “acetate path” is a faulty interpretation of Ripley which I intend to demonstrate through lab experiments. I spent two years exploring Hollandus vegetable work and it does deliver what he described to my great joy and amazement. Since that vegetable work proved to be valid producing some very profound quintessences that behave according to his descriptions, I see no reason to believe Hollandus was lying about the mineral work.

The problem is to develop a protocol to prepare the menstrum to accommodate Au. There seems to be at least three ways to prepare menstrums from the same starting material, biomass. Hollandus’ description of crystals shooting from the dissolution of the chalk of the sun and moon concentrated and aged in a cellar is quite similar to Bolnest’s third way to prepare philosophical wine in his Aurora Chymica.

Everything about alchemy is just speculation until one verifies it in the lab.

theFool
03-05-2017, 04:31 PM
Thanks for your input z0 k.


His Aqua Vitae is not alcohol. It is the burnt wine from pyrolysis. The which carries the spirit that should be able to bind the gold, Au. You mean it is distilled alcohol out of the plant mass that has also dissolved in it the pyrolisis products?

In my observations, even common alcohol can extract a redness but very faint. As you say it must be saturated with spirit. The main preparations include "spiritus vini tartarized" and a way of enhancing alcohol with volatile salt of urine or urine spirit.

I'm glad you posted it so clearly: "the spirit that should be able to bind the gold"

So, it is not the ammonia or other chemical that binds it but an unknown substance that can be found in live matter. Without it there is no redness extracted.

z0 K
03-05-2017, 06:47 PM
Thanks for your input z0 k.

You mean it is distilled alcohol out of the plant mass that has also dissolved in it the pyrolisis products?

In my observations, even common alcohol can extract a redness but very faint. As you say it must be saturated with spirit. The main preparations include "spiritus vini tartarized" and a way of enhancing alcohol with volatile salt of urine or urine spirit.

I'm glad you posted it so clearly: "the spirit that should be able to bind the gold"

So, it is not the ammonia or other chemical that binds it but an unknown substance that can be found in live matter. Without it there is no redness extracted.

Alcohol use in alchemy lab work is problematical because it is a good solvent for herbal use and can lead to production of vegetable stones, but not the way that is taught in alchemy courses advertised on the net. I refer to those courses as Spagyric processes just to distinguish them from the alchemical methods such as Hollandus. Still, using spagyric and alchemic tags is a bit arbitrary. It is possible to use rectified alcohol tartarized to get sublimated salts, but only if the alcohol is rotated over the calx containing the philosophical mercury and sulfur. Bolnest describes this in his second preparation of philosophic wine.

Distilled alcohol is not in Hollandus’ burnt wine in his vegetable work, but his work of the vine does use it maybe, I have not experimented with it. Yet alcohol is used for some preparations of the philosophical menstrums. This is the problem. It is straight forward more or less:) for his vegetable stone and quintessences: no alcohol in them. However when you get to the idea of the Great Elixir, which Ripley distinguishes from the work of one thing in one vessel producing the stone for the poor, the “mercury” is compounded by the addition of other things. That direction is where it seems that Au is utilized but the preparation of the menstrum and the Au is difficult to apprehend.

Tartarized rectified alcohol is employed by some adepts. The modern popular interpretation of that is faulty. I’ve not experimented with volatile urine salt in alcohol. Sal Armoniac is not soluble in anhydrous alcohol but quite soluble in water. There are other volatile salts in the ashes that our vegetable mercury will sublime after several rotations. How they are utilized remains to be seen in the lab. Many experiments need to be done and so few experimenters to do them.

The unknown substance is the Green Dragon or Spiritus Mundi that animates the philosophical elements or ingredients into joining together. The Spiritus Mundi was animating the living plant until the Fire Against Nature resolved it into the black mass if your vessel holds together. The Spiritus Mundi then remains hidden in the fall out never to be seen except through the purification of the pyro-elements and their conjunction into the Quintessence. That joining together is a very speedy transition. Under the proper incubation it takes about 14 days. That joining together is the evolution of the Green Lyon or Anima Mundi.

Hellin Hermetist
03-05-2017, 08:47 PM
I spent two years exploring Hollandus vegetable work and it does deliver what he described to my great joy and amazement.

Do you mean the one publishe by the RAMS or some other treatise?



Since that vegetable work proved to be valid producing some very profound quintessences that behave according to his descriptions, I see no reason to believe Hollandus was lying about the mineral work.

Again, are you refering to the mineral work published by RAMS or the Opera Mineralia published in Theatrum Chemicum, Vol. 6? Or do you mean that you shall try to dissolve the noble metals in your vegetable quintessence, following the instructions which Hollandus gives at the end of his Vegetable Work?

theFool
03-05-2017, 10:16 PM
Bolnest describes this in his second preparation of philosophic wine. I'm not familiar with Bolnest but you got me hooked. I found an interesting work here:
http://www.alchemylife.org/Pages/QuintessenceofWineRevived.pdf


There are other volatile salts in the ashes that our vegetable mercury will sublime after several rotations This is quite interesting too ..

Your explanation about the "Spiritus Mundi" being the extra ingredient inside the living matter is right on spot.

In order to join the spirit with Au, there are two ways that can be followed. Either concentrate the spirit to a powerful dissolvent or/and dissect and "open up" the gold into minute particles in order to receive the spirit easier. Those two ways will help them to express their natural affinity for each other.

z0 K
03-05-2017, 11:19 PM
Do you mean the one publishe by the RAMS or some other treatise?




Again, are you refering to the mineral work published by RAMS or the Opera Mineralia published in Theatrum Chemicum, Vol. 6? Or do you mean that you shall try to dissolve the noble metals in your vegetable quintessence, following the instructions which Hollandus gives at the end of his Vegetable Work?

Yes, the RAMS for his mineral work for which I have not attempted any experiments. For the mineral work I am focusing on Ripley to prepare the vegetable mercury for the work on metals. There seems to be at least a couple of ways depending on the strength of the vegetable menstrum. One way the pure Au is supposed to dissolve into it, in another way the Au has to be treated with the argent vive in a type of calcination. I have not done any experiments on this yet. First the materials have to be processed. I’m processing about 11lbs. stove pipe soot obtained from burning oak and pine wood. The preliminary yield of philosophical elements is very good.

It could be that none of this will yield interesting results with any metals. It could be that the sun and the moon and the other planets are decknamens for elements in the vegetable work alluding to different stages of the work. What I know is that one can make vegetable stones following Hollandus or Ripley. I do not know for sure if the same protocols can be used for the work on metals, but I’m going to find out one way or another. So far no one has made a convincing claim to transmutation using the alchemical powders of projection that I know of in my life time.

z0 K
03-05-2017, 11:44 PM
I'm not familiar with Bolnest but you got me hooked. I found an interesting work here:
http://www.alchemylife.org/Pages/QuintessenceofWineRevived.pdf

This is quite interesting too ..

Your explanation about the "Spiritus Mundi" being the extra ingredient inside the living matter is right on spot.

In order to join the spirit with Au, there are two ways that can be followed. Either concentrate the spirit to a powerful dissolvent or/and dissect and "open up" the gold into minute particles in order to receive the spirit easier. Those two ways will help them to express their natural affinity for each other.

Yeah, that work in the link is a rarity in detailing every step in a laboratory process where all the elements of the pyrolysis have been captured and purified. Bolnest processes the mercury and sulfur together by dry distillation of their calx with the calcined earth. Hollandus separates them before purification. Ripley digests them together. So many ways to process the same elements.

Thanks.

I agree with you about the Au. I’m thinking more “and” than “or” for the “and/or,” maybe even “to” instead of “and/or.”:)

theFool
03-06-2017, 07:58 PM
Yeah, that work in the link is a rarity in detailing every step in a laboratory process where all the elements of the pyrolysis have been captured and purified. After studying the link I think pyro-distillation of the wine tartar probably is far fetched and not absolutely needed. What we need is a salt that is found in the calcined tartar, we isolate this with repetitive dissolutions and distillations with alcohol. When it dissolves in alcohol it gives to it a yellow color. You may see in the appendix of the document other recipes from Bolnest on how to prepare the "quintessence". Not every one of them mentions pyro-distillation. What I get out of those recipes is that the calcined wine tartar leaves feces behind after dissolution of a part of it in the alcohol. Thus, if you try to volatilize the tartar salt with the help of the alcohol don't expect all of it to rise in the distillate. The volatile salt of tartar that will join the alcohol is not potassium carbonate but an unknown substance tightly hidden in it.

The yellowness that the alcohol acquires after the many low temperature cohobations and final high temp distillation on the tartar salt is something I have seen. Even common plant ash can give this yellowness without the need of pyro-distillation. The question of wether we can make salt volatilization with this simpler recipe is still open to me.
One relevant S.V. tartarized recipe from the Pharmacopœia Londinensis (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4887-Book-Pharmacop%9Cia-Londinensis-Or-the-New-London-Dispensatory.) (p.164):

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/svt110.png

Some previous work on pyro-distillation of tartar:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?539-Crude-Tartar-Distillation&highlight=tartar
It won't lead to something usefull.

And one more thread dealing with the volatilization:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4363-Compendium-of-processes-about-TARTAR-SALT-VOLATILIZATION&highlight=tartar

z0 K
03-07-2017, 04:36 PM
After studying the link I think pyro-distillation of the wine tartar probably is far fetched and not absolutely needed. What we need is a salt that is found in the calcined tartar, we isolate this with repetitive dissolutions and distillations with alcohol.

True we can get the volatilized tartar salt from the calcined ashes of the tartar and just let the fumes fly away. The salt is not soluble in anhydrous alcohol. It is soluble in water so you can get it by following Bolnest’s first recipe for Philosophic Wine which as he says is the Vegetable Mercury or Sal Armoniac of R. Lullis. You can see the resemblance to Lulls preparation of Volatile Salt of Tartar in the second link.

I could not see any photos in the first link. Interesting you call that sublimated salt, Alkahest of Tartar. What did it smell like?


You may see in the appendix of the document other recipes from Bolnest on how to prepare the "quintessence". Not every one of them mentions pyro-distillation.

He says to distill what will come over usually describing an oil and a spirit. He likes to putrefy the juices freshly expressed from a plant. Ripley seems to agree on the putrifaction while Hollandus does not like that method.


What I get out of those recipes is that the calcined wine tartar leaves feces behind after dissolution of a part of it in the alcohol. Thus, if you try to volatilize the tartar salt with the help of the alcohol don't expect all of it to rise in the distillate. The volatile salt of tartar that will join the alcohol is not potassium carbonate but an unknown substance tightly hidden in it.

The volatile salt of tartar dissolves into 80 or 100 proof alcohol because of the water in it. So it takes several rounds to get all that salt out of the calcined tartar and into association with the alcohol. I don’t think it is potassium carbonate either. It is some form of potassium ester. I believe that it is one of the bodies the Spiritus Mundi manipulates. They are sometimes called “magnets” by other operators.


The yellowness that the alcohol acquires after the many low temperature cohobations and final high temp distillation on the tartar salt is something I have seen. Even common plant ash can give this yellowness without the need of pyro-distillation.

I agree.


The question of wether we can make salt volatilization with this simpler recipe is still open to me.
One relevant S.V. tartarized recipe from the Pharmacopœia Londinensis (p.164):

Certianly we can make salt volatilization from calcined plant ashes following the Lull and Bolnest methods.
There is more than one Philosophical Sal Armoniac. One is more of a fixed Armoniac hidden in the earth; that is to be made volatile. Another is hidden in the pyro-distillates. It is quite a volatile one that needs to be made fixed.

theFool
03-07-2017, 07:22 PM
Thanks for your replies.


I could not see any photos in the first link. Interesting you call that sublimated salt, Alkahest of Tartar. What did it smell like? Actually the title "Alkahest of Tartar" comes from Robert Bartlett's book "Real Alchemy" where he considers the purified distillate that comes out of tartar distillation to be an alkahest that can extract metals and minerals. It was an attempt to replicate that recipe. In the end, the distillate was found to acquire a red color upon digesting with gold leaf but also it could get red upon digesting simply by itself ... So, it is obvious that it was not an alkahest but it simply formed colored self-condensation products like acetone does. I contacted the author about the possible error, but I got no answer.

The pictures are lost because the online storage site I used has closed. It wasn't anything special. The sublimated salt was ammonium carbonate and I'm pretty sure of that as it gave some characteristic reactions. Smells of ammonia but it is difficult to recognize that smell if it is mixed with the stinking black oil. Also, in case anyone tries to follow that, be very very carefull not to smell black oil (especially when you clean the flasks), it causes runny nose, cough etc..

z0 K
03-07-2017, 08:46 PM
Thanks for your replies.

Actually the title "Alkahest of Tartar" comes from Robert Bartlett's book "Real Alchemy" where he considers the purified distillate that comes out of tartar distillation to be an alkahest that can extract metals and minerals. It was an attempt to replicate that recipe. In the end, the distillate was found to acquire a red color upon digesting with gold leaf but also it could get red upon digesting simply by itself ... So, it is obvious that it was not an alkahest but it simply formed colored self-condensation products like acetone does. I contacted the author about the possible error, but I got no answer.



That was a good experiment you did. It is not easy to get good raw tartar. Bartlett wouldn’t reply to my question about his Hollandus’ plant stone protocols either.


The pictures are lost because the online storage site I used has closed. It wasn't anything special. The sublimated salt was ammonium carbonate and I'm pretty sure of that as it gave some characteristic reactions. Smells of ammonia but it is difficult to recognize that smell if it is mixed with the stinking black oil. Also, in case anyone tries to follow that, be very very carefull not to smell black oil (especially when you clean the flasks), it causes runny nose, cough etc..

Oh! but it was very special. You are one of the few to have isolated volatile Sal Armoniac! Armoniac is what we can call a manifestation of Azoth. At first it is an invisible vapor in the Dragon’s breath of the distillation. It is first seen as a white cloud in the receiver. Armoniac loves water and controls its elemental nature rising to pH12 when concentrated. Then it appears as clear transparent liquid, the first stage of our burning water. I accidentally lost a drop of the concentrate onto a stainless steel surface and it instantly ate into the steel and turned green. It is difficult to fix as you found out when it evaporated. That was because it still held enough water to escape!

If one tries to analyze the volatile Sal Armoniac once it is fixed the Azoth will escape the test and all that is left is ammonium carbonate. You can bake bread with it then but not make a plant stone.

The stinking black oil contains our mercury and elemental fire in poisonous feces that must be removed. And I would say that if you checked the pH of the yellow water it would be around pH 12.

Volatile Sal Armoniac is a bonus that you get by distilling raw tartar even though you are looking for the fixed Sal Armoniac in the calcined tartar earth. That fixed Sal Armoniac extracted from the tartar calx is Lull’s Sal Armoniac. Barlett is either aware of the difference and distorted the two processes or he is ignorant of it. I don’t know which but I do know that the Albertus research group of old had a lot of information they choose not to share. So it is bound with oaths of secrecy.

Schmuldvich
03-07-2017, 08:51 PM
Smells of ammonia but it is difficult to recognize that smell if it is mixed with the stinking black oil. Also, in case anyone tries to follow that, be very very carefull not to smell black oil (especially when you clean the flasks), it causes runny nose, cough etc..
What is this stinking black oil you describe?

Kiorionis
03-07-2017, 11:04 PM
I don't know about Mr. theFool's experience, but from my own, Hollandus' "The First Part of the Vegetable Stone of the Wine" -- beginning at chapter five, second paragraph -- explains it fairly well:


In addition, in these two natures there is still another one concealed and mixed with them. It is called: Rotten, stinking feces. It is so much united and mixed with them that it robs them of all their power, so that they have little or no power; and it makes the elements stinking and putrefactible, of which we are now going to speak.

I haven't read his Mineral Work, so I don't know how he describes it therein, if at all.

Schmuldvich
03-08-2017, 12:22 AM
Is that what you were talking about, theFool?

Can you take the time and describe it a little better in your own words for me?

theFool
03-08-2017, 02:02 PM
Bartlett wouldn’t reply to my question about his Hollandus’ plant stone protocols either. But this didn't stop him from using your email address for advertising the (paid) spagyric lessons I guess :rolleyes:
(Despite of making a joke, I recognize his great efforts to bring to light the alchemical literature and of course I always have respect for that.)



Oh! but it was very special. You are one of the few to have isolated volatile Sal Armoniac! Armoniac is what we can call a manifestation of Azoth. At first it is an invisible vapor in the Dragon’s breath of the distillation. It is first seen as a white cloud in the receiver. Armoniac loves water and controls its elemental nature rising to pH12 when concentrated. Then it appears as clear transparent liquid, the first stage of our burning water. I accidentally lost a drop of the concentrate onto a stainless steel surface and it instantly ate into the steel and turned green. This is really intriguing, I am not familiar with this information.
Since it is fairly difficult to reproduce the appearence of these crystals by tartar distillation, maybe one could work with the sublimate that appears from distilling urine. That sublimate is ammonium carbonate too and since it comes from live matter I think it contains this Sal Armoniac you talk about. I've seen them appearing almost always in contrast to the tartar distillation.


It is difficult to fix as you found out when it evaporated. That was because it still held enough water to escape! Maybe then dessicate it in vacuum, just an idea.


Is that what you were talking about, theFool? Well, I'm not sure if it is the same thing as Kiorionis mentions in his quote. The "black oil" seems to be the bulk of the distillate and has a phenolic smell. It is "heavy" and sticky and tends to condense quickly near the distillation flask.

May I ask, what are your opinions and experiences with tartar distillation? Thanks.

z0 K
03-08-2017, 11:17 PM
Since it is fairly difficult to reproduce the appearence of these crystals by tartar distillation, maybe one could work with the sublimate that appears from distilling urine. That sublimate is ammonium carbonate too and since it comes from live matter I think it contains this Sal Armoniac you talk about. I've seen them appearing almost always in contrast to the tartar distillation.

Maybe then dessicate it in vacuum, just an idea.


I have not used volatile salt of urine. The process stinks worse than vegetable pyrolysis.

My understanding of our Sal Armoniac is that it is saturated with Spiritus Mundi and that makes it Philosophical alchemically. Spiritus Mundi in the animal Sal Armoniac is accompanied by more stinking foul oily waters that have to be removed. I don’t know if it will work the same as vegetable Sal Armoniac. Looks like a good experiment to set up.

Desiccating the Sal Armoniac should work in a vacuum if the temp is very low. I have seen it fix itself by crystallizing on the outer surface of a leaky joint between the alembic and receiver at 55F in the lab. The main thing is to know or find where it is in the dry distillation elements, and to keep it when you catch it. Seal it well in a glass jar and store it in the fridge until needed.

For me this stuff is alive and the chemistry is just a skeleton the Armoniac Spirit manipulates.

Kiorionis
03-09-2017, 03:17 AM
A bit off topic, but...


I have not used volatile salt of urine. The process stinks worse than vegetable pyrolysis.

I can imagine it would. Also, I think before doing a work with urine, it is necessary to fast at least 35 days.

It takes about 35 days for blood plasma to transmute the most dense and old tissues in the body into a better quality.

Schmuldvich
03-09-2017, 05:38 AM
Is that what you were talking about, theFool?


Well, I'm not sure if it is the same thing as Kiorionis mentions in his quote. The "black oil" seems to be the bulk of the distillate and has a phenolic smell. It is "heavy" and sticky and tends to condense quickly near the distillation flask.

May I ask, what are your opinions and experiences with tartar distillation? Thanks.

I don't even know what tartar is, so none! z0 K keeps talking about vegetable Sal Armoniac and animal Sal Armoniac, but does anyone here really know what he is talking about?

Why do you call it "our Sal Amoniac", z0 K? How would you describe the "Spiritus Mundi" you are working with?

Andro
03-09-2017, 08:21 AM
This is an experiment of mine from around 7 years ago... (Time flies... needs to be 'fixed' ASAP :))

A nice quantity of Volatile Salts, both from Urine and from Tartar.

Some of the volatile Urine salts I've placed in SV to digest, just to see what happens:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/VU-Salts-1.jpg

And these are the Volatile Salts from Tartar:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/VW-Salts-1.jpg

Although the two salts are apparently quite similar, it can be observed that they crystallize just slightly differently.

Tartar Salts are a bit more 'snowy' and Urine salts look a bit more 'frosty' in the SV - but the difference is quite subtle.

These salts are said to be the result of the decomposing of the matter, either by slower putrefaction in gentle heat, or by higher heat dry distillation of the dry residue in the flask. Dry distillation gave me a much better yield, but after those salts are already extracted, they sublime easily with low heat.

A different process on the same matters (with help from the 'Fire Against Nature') will give an entirely different kind of volatile salt, completely tasteless, no Ammonia at all, soluble only in Ether and in its own Spirit, and with some very interesting properties. It crystallizes in dendritic patterns on the Alembic Head (like feathers), unlike the other previously mentioned salts. Unfortunately, I can't locate the pictures of this one...

z0 K
03-09-2017, 08:05 PM
Why do you call it "our Sal Amoniac", z0 K? How would you describe the "Spiritus Mundi" you are working with?

I call it “Our” Sal Armoniac to distinguish it from sal armoniac (sal ammoniac) of the chemists which is ammonium chloride, and to distinguish it from sal volatile of the chemists which is ammonium carbonate.

I would say that Spiritus Mundi is the spirit of the world. The energy of the Universe expressed through all that can be perceived in the Microcosm and Macrocosm.

How would I describe the Spiritus Mundi? Close your eyes, what do you see when you think. Does thinking engender feeling. Does feeling engender thinking. Are your thoughts and feelings molecules? Or are molecules released when you think and feel.

Thoughts and feelings are germane to living things but they are not physical. You cannot grab a thought with your hands and stuff it into a jar. However you can stuff materials into a jar that may present the thought you wished to grab. Then it is up to another person perceiving the material in the jar to capture the thought represented by the matter in the jar by observing it. That is Spirtus Mundi sharing itself with itself.

Living matter: creatures, possess a greater amount of Spiritus Mundi than matter that we classify as non living. The energy that expresses itself though intelligent activity manifested by the living is caught up in the physical cycles studied by the science of biology. So far it has been beyond the scope of biology to capture that spirit in the cycling matter. That is because it cannot be measured directly. Any attempt to do so results in the death of the living system.

Science as of yet cannot animate that vital life force once the thing is dead. Science does not know how to collect the VLF, Quintessence or fifth element of alchemy: air, water, fire, earth and life force (wood in the Taoist system). Collecting that VLF is the goal of alchemy. We call it Argent Vive and many other names as well.

The Spiritus Mundi is trapped temporarily in the dead matter. Alchemists collect and concentrate the elements of the dead thing by removing the feces. Once that is done the Argent vive, Spiritus Mundi, vitality of the life force is strong enough to manipulate the purified matter into a new thing saturated with VLF readily available.

Axismundi000
03-09-2017, 09:28 PM
This SM I think is a fundamental hermetic concept. The challenge for me is to produce it in the lab rather then as electromagnetic fluid ( if that is the same thing). Once I have some I will know if they are the same or not.

I'm just saying this to indicate that I value this discussion and look forward to reading more.

elixirmixer
03-10-2017, 03:22 AM
I don't even know what tartar is, so none! z0 K keeps talking about vegetable Sal Armoniac and animal Sal Armoniac, but does anyone here really know what he is talking about?

He is talking about the distillate that comes from the white fume during dry distillation. The Air element. The one that has power to join the fire with the waters.

theFool
03-10-2017, 01:05 PM
Armoniac loves water and controls its elemental nature rising to pH12 when concentrated. Then it appears as clear transparent liquid, the first stage of our burning water. I accidentally lost a drop of the concentrate onto a stainless steel surface and it instantly ate into the steel and turned green. It is difficult to fix as you found out when it evaporated. That was because it still held enough water to escape!
How did you try to isolate the "Armoniac" out of the volatile crystals (or the water) it was dissolved in?


Desiccating the Sal Armoniac should work in a vacuum if the temp is very low. I have seen it fix itself by crystallizing on the outer surface of a leaky joint between the alembic and receiver at 55F in the lab. Did you just try to evaporate the crystals (or water) slowly at 55F? Seems like a really low temperature for evaporation to happen.


I don’t know if it will work the same as vegetable Sal Armoniac. Looks like a good experiment to set up.
A relevant recipe from the book "Art of Distillation":

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/salamm10.png
By rectification the spirit becomes so penetrating that it can dissolve gold. What kind of rectification did he use. I think he is talking about the "armoniac" dissolved in the liquid spirit of urine and somehow can concentrate it to a great extend.

z0 K
03-10-2017, 10:30 PM
How did you try to isolate the "Armoniac" out of the volatile crystals (or the water) it was dissolved in?

Did you just try to evaporate the crystals (or water) slowly at 55F? Seems like a really low temperature for evaporation to happen.


A relevant recipe from the book "Art of Distillation":

https://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/13/27/64/97/salamm10.png
By rectification the spirit becomes so penetrating that it can dissolve gold. What kind of rectification did he use. I think he is talking about the "armoniac" dissolved in the liquid spirit of urine and somehow can concentrate it to a great extend.

You can heat the Armoniac salt or its concentrated water in a BM set up until dry Sal Armoniac sublimes into an ice water cooled condenser.

The Sal Armoniac crystals were not evaporated at 55F. The room temp was 55F. The flask with the armoniac concentrate pH 12, was heated to around 150F with a 1000mL 55/50 helmet attached. The receiver attached to the helm beak was leaky and the Sal Armoniac sublimed wet at the leak and crystals grew out into the open air and they were dry and stable. No ammonia smell either. I don’t think that would have worked if the room temp was above 70F.

That urine experiment would be a good one to try. I have not processed urine that way. I experimented with Philalethes recipe using fresh urine many years ago. That was a stinking operation. Ageing the stuff for 40 days will create a really foul stench that might draw complaints and the authorities.

I don’t know what kind of rectification he used for his Spirit of Urine process. How one proceeds with it will make a difference.

Once you can make his Spirit of Urine. Then you can put it to his test and see if it works.

I would suggest that the dry caput should be ground into powder and the distillate mixed with it until it is the consistency of dough before each distillation.

Once you have the armoniac salt you put it back on its distillate and distill again for as many rectifications as you want. Each time some feces remain in the flask it would be wise to remove them before the next round. The stuff would be as strong as it is going to get when it leaves no feces behind.

Anyway it looks like a good experiment for someone interested in working with a very cheap starting matter found everywhere we go.