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black
03-06-2017, 11:16 AM
There doesn't seem to be much written about how to determine the
Universal Philosophers Stone, or perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong books.

How do we Determine, Signify, Specify, or Define the Stone to have any
action in the realm we choose.

Vegetable realm = to grow a quick salad for dinner.

Animal realm = a good medicine for the human body.

Mineral/Metallic realm = to make some precious metals to pay the bills.

If anyone has some interesting suggestions or has read anything related to
this... please share.

JDP
03-06-2017, 11:34 AM
There doesn't seem to be much written about how to determine the
Universal Philosophers Stone, or perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong books.

How do we Determine, Signify, Specify, or Define the Stone to have any
action in the realm we choose.

Vegetable realm = to grow a quick salad for dinner.

Animal realm = a good medicine for the human body.

Mineral/Metallic realm = to make some precious metals to pay the bills.

If anyone has some interesting suggestions or has read anything related to
this... please share.

If you stumble upon a white/grayish or red/yellow/orange substance that when projected upon many times its own weight of molten base metals turns them into silver or gold, then you can VERY SAFELY conclude that you found the Stone/Elixir, or at the very least some powerful "particular" tincture related to it. There just aren't many substances around that can accomplish this remarkable feat.

Medicinal properties are not as good an indicator since there's a huge amount of substances that have medicinal properties. Plus experimenting with your or other people's health could potentially be disastrous if you happen to be testing the wrong thing. So testing with metals is the surest sign.

Awani
03-06-2017, 12:12 PM
This is a valid and interesting thread.

A somehow related thread to this topic is: Why make the Stone? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4950-Why-make-The-Stone) But this one is more "hands-on" and the other a bit more philosophical.


If you stumble upon a white/grayish or red/yellow/orange substance that when projected upon many times its own weight of molten base metals turns them into silver or gold, then you can VERY SAFELY conclude that you found the Stone/Elixir, or at the very least some powerful "particular" tincture related to it. There just aren't many substances around that can accomplish this remarkable feat.

Have you stumbled upon this? If so your "clue" is very valid indeed. If not then I assume this is just a theory based on your research?

:cool:

JDP
03-06-2017, 12:43 PM
Have you stumbled upon this?

No... not yet.


If so your "clue" is very valid indeed. If not then I assume this is just a theory based on your research?

:cool:

It's based on both the statements of the alchemists themselves as well as those of the witnesses who saw and/or handled samples of it. The Stone/Elixir that changes base metals into silver is always described as either white or gray in color, while the one that transmutes into gold is described as red/purple, yellow or orange (the color seems to vary according to the manner of manufacture.) They are described as being dense, and as being able to transmute variable amounts of base metals, depending on the skill and knowledge of the operator who made them, but always exceeding their own weight (some samples could transmute just a few times their own weight, while other samples could transmute hundreds or even thousands of times their own weight.)

Awani
03-06-2017, 12:48 PM
It's based on both the statements of the alchemists themselves as well as those of the witnesses who saw and/or handled samples of it.

1. Were these statements written in a normal straightforward non-allegorical way or in typical alchemy-lingo?
2. Have you spoken directly to any of these witnesses?
3. If you have not spoken to any of them, have you read these reports from their own words or through another source?
4. Do any of these alchemist have another agenda like "pay me to know more"?
5. Finally who are these alchemists + witnesses?

:cool:

JDP
03-06-2017, 12:57 PM
1. Were these statements written in a normal straightforward non-allegorical way or in typical alchemy-lingo?

No, when the alchemists describe the Stone they make zero secrets about it. They adopt a very clear and straightforward style. It is only when it comes to the issue of how is it made that they start adopting the more obscure/enigmatic/vague styles.


2. Have you spoken directly to any of these witnesses?

No, unfortunately they are no longer around.


3. If you have not spoken to any of them, have you read these reports from their own words or through another source?

Yes, both. Even Robert Boyle, the so-called "Father of Modern Chemistry" (incorrect claim, but many people still believe it), witnessed it in his own lab (thanks to a sample donated by the servant of the same alchemist who also demonstrated the same thing to Edmund Dickinson, the physician of Charles II) and was totally convinced of its reality.

Awani
03-06-2017, 01:07 PM
Ok I see. Pretty vague IMO. Hearsay. Rumour.

However if indeed this knowledge was known to people connected with the royal family in England, then it might explain why that old bag of a Queen never seems to die. She's been an old woman for as long as I can remember.

I have a friend who is very good at card tricks. He did one card trick one time that totally amazed me and "convinced me of its reality". When he showed me how it was done I was a bit disappointed... it was such a simple trick.

For me, so far in this thread, this is further "proof" that the claims of Alchemists and their students (us) have little weight and 0 % direct experience. Anything beyond direct experience is gossip in my book. Although this does not mean that the Stone cannot be made, but I think there is a great danger of unhealthy obsession chasing something that might turn out to be a MacGuffin.

I think there is one important point that should be made, that many do not think is a valid point nor believe, but from my experience something is way easier to find if one stops looking for it... stop chasing it. Rather re-direct the energy to some other process or path. It's hard for me to explain. Words do not do it justice, but those that know what I mean will understand.


1. Vegetable realm = to grow a quick salad for dinner.

2. Animal realm = a good medicine for the human body.

3. Mineral/Metallic realm = to make some precious metals to pay the bills.

1. this sounds like what the ORMUS people claim
2. if this is the Stone then it already exist with shamanic medicine in conjunction with the correct diet
3. a PHILOSOPHER´S stone cannot be made if the sole purpose is to pay the bills (clue is in the name)

:cool:

JDP
03-06-2017, 01:37 PM
Ok I see. Pretty vague IMO. Hearsay. Rumour.

However if indeed this knowledge was known to people connected with the royal family in England, then it might explain why that old bag of a Queen never seems to die. She's been an old woman for as long as I can remember.

I have a friend who is very good at card tricks. He did one card trick one time that totally amazed me and "convinced me of its reality". When he showed me how it was done I was a bit disappointed... it was such a simple trick.

But there is a difference: the magician is in control of the game when he performs his tricks. The alchemist has no control of the situation once he donates a sample of the Stone. The person who now has the sample of the Stone is the one in control of the situation. We have cases where this is in fact what happened. Berigard of Pisa, for example, got a sample of the Stone from a friend of his who thought it appropriate to convince him of the reality of alchemy, then he tested it with his own crucible, his own coals and his own mercury, to "avoid all imposition", as he says. He too became convinced of how real it is. Trickery is simply impossible in such cases. Either the witness is telling the truth or he is lying, there is no "middle ground".


For me, so far in this thread, this is further "proof" that the claims of Alchemists and their students (us) have little weight and 0 % direct experience. Anything beyond direct experience is gossip in my book. Although this does not mean that the Stone cannot be made, but I think there is a great danger of unhealthy obsession chasing something that might turn out to be a MacGuffin.

I think there is one important point that should be made, that many do not think is a valid point nor believe, but from my experience something is way easier to find if one stops looking for it... stop chasing it. Rather re-direct the energy to some other process or path. It's hard for me to explain. Words do not do it justice, but those that know what I mean will understand.

If you don't seek, you will never find.

Hellin Hermetist
03-06-2017, 01:38 PM
There doesn't seem to be much written about how to determine the
Universal Philosophers Stone, or perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong books.

I believe that the most essential points are the followings:
ι) Very dense white or red crystallic substance, capable of transmuting many times its own weight to silver or gold.
ii) You can multiply its power of transmutation by dissolving and coagulating it in one of the waters you used during its confection.

black
03-06-2017, 01:40 PM
Thanks JDP this sounds like the best and safest way to test a Stone.
I've never been keen on playing Russian roulette.

Dev...Yes if I had the Stone the last thing on my mind would be
paying the bills.

I believe that the gold making is just the test and when proven
then it's True Potential can be put to use.

But what I'm asking in this thread is, does the Stone need to be altered
in any way to operate in the different realms ?

black
03-06-2017, 02:20 PM
Thanks Hellin , I like the sound of that... Dense Crystallic Substance.

I have read that some alchemists added a small piece of gold to the Stone
to Signify, Determine or Specify it for the transmutation of base metals to gold.

In the same way does the Stone need to be Signified, Determined or Specified
to the human body or to the vegetable realm ?

Kiorionis
03-06-2017, 02:30 PM
There is also this thread, which might help:

Orienting the Stone (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4851-Orienting-the-Stone.)

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2017, 02:33 PM
But what I'm asking in this thread is, does the Stone need to be altered
in any way to operate in the different realms ?

Based on my extensive reading and research, there appear to be two major stages of the Philosophers Stone (and a few minor ones). During the earlier stage it is generally called a Universal Medicine and will work in medicinal ways on humans or animals. At this stage it does not transmute base metals into gold. During the second stage, it is my understanding that it can ONLY be used for transmutational purposes. It can then no longer be used as a Medicine. There are also other stages. One stage converts base metals to Silver. Another stage results in a perpetual or everlasting light (rarely mentioned). As for the Vegetable Philosophers Stone, that appears to be a modern invention. None of the oldest alchemical texts mention it.

Awani
03-06-2017, 05:05 PM
If you don't seek, you will never find.

Like I said, that was not what I meant.

I think there is one important point that should be made, that many do not think is a valid point nor believe, but from my experience something is way easier to find if one stops looking for it... stop chasing it. Rather re-direct the energy to some other process or path. It's hard for me to explain. Words do not do it justice, but those that know what I mean will understand.


But what I'm asking in this thread is, does the Stone need to be altered
in any way to operate in the different realms ?

Good question. For the pro-Stone people I have always got the impression that The Stone finished works in all realms as is.

:cool:

Salazius
03-06-2017, 06:14 PM
@Black Look : Here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4851-Orienting-the-Stone.)

Salazius
03-06-2017, 06:19 PM
As for the Vegetable Philosophers Stone, that appears to be a modern invention. None of the oldest alchemical texts mention it.

Wrong since the is mention in "Arcana Divina" concerning the Urim and Thummim of the "Mineral, astral, vegetable, animal and Fire of God Stones".

Also, wine was abundantly documented concerning the Vegetable Stone in a lot of treatrises, as Thesaurus, Toeltius, "La Chrisologie Chimique", Aurea Catena Homeri (saying about bread and wine that there is not much volatile salt in bread), Father of Castaigne (using also bread and wine), ...

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2017, 08:10 PM
Wrong since the is mention in "Arcana Divina" concerning the Urim and Thummim of the "Mineral, astral, vegetable, animal and Fire of God Stones".

Also, wine was abundantly documented concerning the Vegetable Stone in a lot of treatrises, as Thesaurus, Toeltius, "La Chrisologie Chimique", Aurea Catena Homeri (saying about bread and wine that there is not much volatile salt in bread), Father of Castaigne (using also bread and wine), ...

"Arcana Divina" was published in 1725, which I consider to be quite 'modern' relative to the very old Arab texts. The other treatises that you mentioned are also quite modern (relatively speaking).

As for the use of "wine", that is likely a deckname and refers to the solvent, not actual wine.

Salazius
03-07-2017, 09:28 AM
"Arcana Divina" was published in 1725, which I consider to be quite 'modern' relative to the very old Arab texts. The other treatises that you mentioned are also quite modern (relatively speaking).

As for the use of "wine", that is likely a deckname and refers to the solvent, not actual wine.

What you call modern, I call golden age in Occident. Look at Brouault. In the year 1600, it's not "modern". And the fact that something seem more recent to you seems to be of less value... And I don't agree at all with this.

If a matter has a Sulfur, it can be worked upon, whatever the kingdom, it's not a "modern invention" as you say, but a logic of Nature transcending human opinion or point of view.

Sometimes yes, it was pointed as "wine" for the Solvent, but clearly, without ambiguity at all, it was clearly stated as the matter used for a Stone in several opus.

black
03-07-2017, 11:30 AM
Based on my extensive reading and research, there appear to be two major stages of the Philosophers Stone (and a few minor ones). During the earlier stage it is generally called a Universal Medicine and will work in medicinal ways on humans or animals. At this stage it does not transmute base metals into gold. During the second stage, it is my understanding that it can ONLY be used for transmutational purposes. It can then no longer be used as a Medicine. There are also other stages. One stage converts base metals to Silver. Another stage results in a perpetual or everlasting light (rarely mentioned). As for the Vegetable Philosophers Stone, that appears to be a modern invention. None of the oldest alchemical texts mention it.

It appears that there may be many things the Phi Stone can be
used for, and I believe that the Old Masters and the newer
Masters don't talk about how deep this Rabbit Hole goes.

It looks like there is a certain line that they can't cross.

black
03-07-2017, 11:32 AM
Thanks to Kiorionis and Salazius for directing me to Orienting the Stone.

A very interesting thread that I feel I will need to read through a few more times.