PDA

View Full Version : Ripley Scroll (toads and dragons and fairy tales)



zoas23
04-14-2017, 06:30 AM
You people are so rude.
I start all these epic threads, you'z come on here, get inspired, go off tract, and usually without every properly addressing the subject matter that I'm F'ing talking about.
How does the Ripley Scroll belong here?
I started a "Alchemical Fairytales" thread, go talk toads and dragons over there.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MGUBj8Fx_Qs/TAejYwrMhuI/AAAAAAAAACI/5fkNJEReIqo/s1600/12.jpg


Ripley is my favorite alchemist to reveal the secrets of the Philosophy. He subscribes to the paradigm of the alchemical dragon and lion. That is part of an English tradition that also used rhyme to express the alchemical philosophy. I like that alchemical poetry so I enjoy reading Ripley’s scroll process in rhyme and his Compound of Alchemy too.

I see the scroll as displaying a process that starts at the bottom for the symbolic artwork. The alchemist (Ripley) starts out with his plans (scroll on the staff) and his materials in the sack. We don’t know what is in the sack. I suggest it is his starting matter for the lab work. His hand gestures above to the winged globe. The winged globe with mounted green dragon is symbolic of the entire work concluding with the three principles conjoined in a sphere radiating energy.

The sphere and its contents represent what Ripley has in his bag. We see in the drawings that blood of the dragon is in the sphere. It is falling in drops that descend into a white material surrounded by a black matter all of which are in a pool of water. The top of the sphere shows that the sphere is sealed and fortified. In the dragon’s mouth are the three things from the sphere only now they have been tooled into equal crescents that open at the top where we find the three things fixed together with chains. That represents the conjoined Stone under the banner in the scroll.

The foundation of this scene is the color green. According to Ripley and Dunstan green represents the ability to grow attributed to Life. The dragon’s wings are fixed to the sphere. What does a dragon do? It breathes fire and destroys things yet takes treasures back to its cave. The dragon’s cave is in the earth of course. Symbolically Ripley is saying that he put his matter into a vessel and used fire to cause the matter to rise as if it had wings. He sealed his vessel so nothing could escape probably in a horizontal distillation train. In the aftermath of the dragon’s breath he found three things red, white and black.

Above the banner of the green dragon winged earth sequence is a new foundation where we see the Bird of Hermes standing on a brown sphere being rained upon by a dark cloud being heated by the sun. This is the most secret part of the work. The matter is being heated to sweating temperature in order to coax the Bird of Hermes out of the crude matter after the initial dragon burn. That is the secret salt.

The next scene is about purification of the elements obtained from the process symbolized in the lower scenes. The four elements and the three principles in a bath (solution) purified by rectification.

The top scene is the whole process of the Stone depicted in one vessel over one fire. In the lower half of the vessel is a brown matter similar in appearance to the brown sphere in the scene second from the bottom. What is going on in the vessel is the rise and fall of the toad’s blood. The toad is the raw stone compounded from the materials derived from the green dragon burn and the bird sweating. The two baths are for the toad. In the first his blood is purified. In the second he is fed.

That’s what I think:)


He is among my favorites too. A friend recently wrote a very nice essay about it in Spanish, but she is travelling right now (she's in Japan). When she returns I will ask her if I can share with you her paper... She wrote it using the Spanish style of Renaissance Rhymes as to offer an analogous style. I think it's the most elegant "text" in the whole history of alchemy.

Your favorite version is also my favorite (Mellon MS), but I like to use them ALL to think.

I am VERY surprised by your interpretation. I have always read it from the top to the bottom... and not so long ago I began to think that maybe we have 4 "alternatives" there (4 paths).

I never thought of reading it from bottom to top as you do (an option that I can't discard now).

After seeing your video, I suspect that you are right about some things and that I had a pareidolia... I saw there an absolutely different path.

Some ideas I had, though based on the Bodleian Library scroll is that the bottom shows a poor man with a horse shoe (which is a symbolical magnet) and a Bishop or Pope with a golden baculum.... So I followed an idea that can be found in many texts (Hermetic Recreations as an example)... which is, as to use terms taken from the Hermetic Triumph, that the Elementary Gold can act as a magnet for the Astral Gold... but that if you don't know how to do it, then you will have to do something "less noble", which is using metallic gold as a substitute. So my interpretation was that the Bodleian version was showing these two "options".

Of course, it can be a pareidolia...

I will try to make a "tabula rasa" with my previous ideas and read the scroll using your interpretation (from bottom to top).

Again, very glad to find someone who likes it... because it is truly a text that makes even most of the wisest alchemists go "Ehm... *cough*.... errr... Why don't we talk about something else?".

Something I love about Ripley is how he built a very personal symbology... Here's a nice article with LOTS of sources about the toad (which is certainly not the most typical animal in alchemical symbolism): http://www.levity.com/alchemy/toad.html

I have to confess that I can gladly spend hours and hours listening to someone talking about Ripley's scroll... It is a true masterpiece.

z0 K
04-15-2017, 07:42 PM
He is among my favorites too. A friend recently wrote a very nice essay about it in Spanish, but she is travelling right now (she's in Japan). When she returns I will ask her if I can share with you her paper... She wrote it using the Spanish style of Renaissance Rhymes as to offer an analogous style. I think it's the most elegant "text" in the whole history of alchemy.

Your favorite version is also my favorite (Mellon MS), but I like to use them ALL to think.



Your friend’s essay sounds interesting, I don’t speak Spanish though.
The Ripley Corpus of alchemical writings is for me the most comprehensive demonstration of alchemical knowledge and praxis.

I study all the Ripley Scrolls I can get. These days several are available on the internet. They are all great for meditation and contemplation and enrichment of the active imagination to enliven the windows of the Mind.


I am VERY surprised by your interpretation. I have always read it from the top to the bottom... and not so long ago I began to think that maybe we have 4 "alternatives" there (4 paths).

I never thought of reading it from bottom to top as you do (an option that I can't discard now).

Of course, it can be a pareidolia...

I will try to make a "tabula rasa" with my previous ideas and read the scroll using your interpretation (from bottom to top).

Once I knew the laboratory protocols from my own experiments following advice in his other works (Key to the Golden Gate and Marrow of Alchemy) I knew the sequence of the operations he was depicting in the scroll. The whole procedure could be symbolized by a tower where every operation is built upon the one below it.

Pareidolia (exactly! I like that) is a psychological phenomenon in which the mind responds to a stimulus (an image or a sound) by perceiving a familiar pattern where none exists.

I do believe that is what separates alchemy from any other philosophical discipline. Both sides of the mind must be addressed in alchemical philosophy. One side is logical and dependent upon reason. The other side is analogical and dependent upon symbolism. Getting both sides of the Mind to work together is the Great Work.


After seeing your video, I suspect that you are right about some things and that I had a pareidolia... I saw there an absolutely different path.

I was very surprised too when I was experimenting with Hollandus mineralized plant stone and suddenly I was seeing Ripley’s ruddy toad! The Toad seems to be one way of engineering the philosophical elements obtained from Nature in the crude state. Hollandus teaches an alternate protocol that doesn’t use the toad symbolism. Bolnest in his Aurora Chymica describes procedures similar to Ripley but he uses chymystry terms instead of Ripley mythical allegory.


Some ideas I had, though based on the Bodleian Library scroll is that the bottom shows a poor man with a horse shoe (which is a symbolical magnet) and a Bishop or Pope with a golden baculum.... So I followed an idea that can be found in many texts (Hermetic Recreations as an example)... which is, as to use terms taken from the Hermetic Triumph, that the Elementary Gold can act as a magnet for the Astral Gold... but that if you don't know how to do it, then you will have to do something "less noble", which is using metallic gold as a substitute. So my interpretation was that the Bodleian version was showing these two "options".

The Bodleian Library Scroll, MS Ash.Rolls 53, differs from the Huntington, HM 30313, and Beinecke Mellon MS 41. It has an interesting segue added between the alchemist at the bottom and the winged globe/dragon scene above it. The segue scene provides more information about what is in the globe/dragon scene. The dragon in the middle is red. His blood is pouring into the globe. The red dragon has a white dragon above his head. On either side of the red dragon are lions. One is green the other is red. Both lions have birds above their heads. The green lion has a black raven above him and the red one had a white bird above him. Both birds are holding horse shoes in their beaks.

I believe that symbolism of the horseshoes in the birds’ mouths is very exact in representing the nature of the secret salts. I have obtained them from various biomass starting materials. And the whole scene provides more details about the philosophical elements in the starting matter.

From the red dragon we get mercury and sulfur from his blood into our vessel. From the green lion we get a fixed secret salt: the raven with wings folded is not flying. That salt is called armoniac by other artists including Lull. It is obtained from the black matter at the bottom of the vessel. The other secret salt is very volatile. It is obtained from the red lion indicating that it is from the dragon’s blood. Both of those secret salts come from the dragon burning the starting matter to release them. Then referring back to the bottom scene we see that the alchemist's staff with the horseshoe is a Y shape and the horseshoe is in the middle of the Y. This references that the “magnet” is twofold. The twofold nature of the secret salt is the most obscure knowledge essential to succeed in the lab.


Something I love about Ripley is how he built a very personal symbology... Here's a nice article with LOTS of sources about the toad (which is certainly not the most typical animal in alchemical symbolism): http://www.levity.com/alchemy/toad.html

Good article. He does make the point that the Toad could be seen as symbolically representing the starting matter itself.


I have to confess that I can gladly spend hours and hours listening to someone talking about Ripley's scroll... It is a true masterpiece.

There is more in the scrolls; lots more:)

elixirmixer
04-16-2017, 04:12 AM
@Zoas23: Awwwww those eyes! :o

I like this Ripley stuff, mainly because I feel that it's one of the two missing pieces in my puzzle, I still have a lot of work to do with the philosophers hand and Hollandus's techniques, but after the hand is won, then we move on to the practical combination of our special materials.

Andro -


"Dew on steroids"

Comes to mind.....

-------------------------

I haven't much clue concerning what the toad exactly corresponds with, obvious the First matter, and yet it seems I me to be a very specific state of that, our matter.

Not sure if it's of significance: I Had a very diluted solution if collected rainwater, silver, and nitric acid. It was clear and bright, having spent many days exposed to the weather. I poured it out onto a vegetable, which, in the matter of a day wilted, yet, as soon as I poured on this clear bright water, a large black mass of bubbles that 'swelled' appeared, grew quite large, and then, it soon dried to a dry black mass.

Just food for thought.

Schmuldvich
04-24-2017, 01:52 AM
http://i.imgur.com/pHgpcv6.jpg

Reading it from bottom to top seems to make the most sense, like z0 K pointed out. If you look at the bottom of most of the Ripley scrolls the guy at the bottom is always portrayed as utterly more pathetic looking than the guy at the very top of the scrolls. If you notice the guy at the top is always better dressed than the bottom guy, and the top guy is also always wearing a hat. The bottom guy's hands motion that he is "lost", while the top guy's hands are always comfortably grasping the flask below him.

All in all the guy at the top seems to be a Master Alchemist with everything under control, and the guy at the bottom appears to be a Seeker lost and searching for the way.


http://i.imgur.com/x72T87e.jpg

I think it is worth noting that Mellon MS 41 has the section of text from Ms. VIII D 75 "An Expounding Or Signification Of The Seven Seals Wherein The Book Of Philosophy Is Closed" also called Visio Mystica or possibly Flos Florum towards the top of the scroll. Reading this story vastly aids one in understanding the seven-chained rotary depicted in the upper section of The Ripley Scroll. Massimo Marra gives us a translation (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/vasconia.html).



1. Viddi then in the first part of the gold chain a seal of silver letters, which place me in said hot, et humido, et pascemi ones, because they are feeble. Asked the old man, above this said - this writing, son, denotes the first key, ie operatione, which is called digestion, et putrefattione, which is done by the ministry of his time in the hot et humido fire. Why sicome a bike you can not convert to another motion, if not for its digestion, so the lapis our you can not convert simple nor líanima from spirit can be taken from the body, except through its digestion, because what a thing síappropinqua to the simple, the more perfect. And therefore I know that it will not be putrid, can not reach the secreto.-.

2. Viddi then the second chain, which was silvery et finally the golden principle; and in part was a silver seal with this writing saying - slightly digesto are animated, though essaltami et, et levamisole from the more serious things -.

I dimandai the old man this, whom he answered: - son know that this is the second stone operatione, which is called distillatione, et the first part of silvery chain denotes that what the first distilling is the spirit that animated quicksilver et is white dye. And the second part of the chain, which is aurea, denotes that what distills the second et third time is oglio dyed, et is red dye, which is oleo de philosophi, et this is the second key to the philosophy.

3. The third golden chain have a a seal of silver letters, saying separates from the dyed dyed. And this, says the old man, meaning the separattione dellíaere fire, recevendo líaere essaltandolo by itself several times in the fire humido, et this is the third part dellíopera.

4. The fourth silvery chain have a a seal that said essaltami, separates, sublimami, lest can be ridutto allíesser simple. He says the old man: This denotes the essaltazione inanimate spirit of being in itself, this is the fourth operatione et, et key dellíarte.

5. The fifth chain was silver as well as gold, but negra surface, et his seal said: I am thirsty, give me a drink, make me white.

I asked the old man of this, so he said: This is a great secret, et this is the body is dead still, et calcined, whom dimanda be imbeverato et albificato with a part of the animated spirit, so that by dispositione the animated spirit may soon arrive to its simple essence of the fifth, et this is the fifth key dellíopera.

6. The sixth was so silvery chain as gold, et seal so saying we are widowers, orphans et, et away from home for riduttione it home, accio the body amicabilmente míabbracci.

7. The seventh et last chain was silver as well as gold, which sealed everything, et havea its seal of gold silver et letters saying, ago slightly, with fire Amicabile, that nothing we can not separate violence.

Said the old man: this means líultima intentione, et perfection, that is, to do the hard solute, et fixed solute, et this is the last seventh et, et key stone dè philosophers.

Allíhora was a desire to see the open book to me, Wherefore said the old man ( I said to the old man): I will coniuro for the God of heaven for your kindness I open the book, et me reveli those secrets that inside there are facts, et writings.

He said the old man: - Know the son that scholars have placed nellíopera them many things, et many ways of operating as dissolve, freeze et fix many vessels et et weights, et have done this to blind the ignorant, and declare prudent. And notice that philosophers have expressed the Work in short words do not own, but metaphysical, et though they have added many other words they have done this to not be understood unless dalli wise.



http://i.imgur.com/P0XcpEq.png


Reading George Ripley's "Treatise Of Mercury And The Philosopher's Stone" and "Liber Secretisimuss" benefits one in understanding the scroll. I am not sure if these have been verified as actually penned by George Ripley himself, but within these two texts the author goes in more detail regarding Virgin's Milk, our Seed, Quintessence, Solution, Conjunction, White Stone, Red Stone, etc. and even illustrates for us an abbreviation of the Work. St. Dunstan's "Philosophia Maturata" is another parallel worthy of study, imo.



http://i.imgur.com/bsmwkUL.png




So my interpretation was that the Bodleian version was showing these two "options".

I am in agreement that MS. Ash. Rolls 53 shows the Short Way and the Long Way. Out of all the Ripley scrolls out there, this is the only one that appears to be openly presenting both paths deliberately.


Aaron Kitch gives us a wonderful translation (https://www.bowdoin.edu/faculty/akitch/pdf/ripley-scrolls.pdf) of HM 30313 Latin into English that helps us further understand the scrolls, especially the uppermost part of the The Ripley Scroll depicting the pelican.



[Roundels inside the flask, beginning with upper right and moving clockwise:]

1. Spiritus · Anima · Corpus + Leo Rubens · [Leo] Viridis
[Spirit · Soul · Body + Red Lion · Green [Lion] ]

2.
[The soule forsooth is his sulpher not breninge]

3. Acalido & humido + primo ex illis pasce quoniam debilis sum
[I have passed first through heat and humidity, from which I have become weak.]

4. Leniter degestus animatus sum exalta me grassioribus
[Slowly digested, I am animated; exalt me over my grosser parts.]

5. Exalto sepera subtilia me vt posim reducere ad simplex
[Raise me above the subtle elements so that I may be reduced to the simple.]

6. Sitio deficio pota me me albifica
[I thirst; I faint. Drink me. Whiten me.]

7. Vidui sumus & a domo p[r]opria elo[n]gati nos ad sp[irit]u[m] reduc[ere] vt corpus nos amplectatur & nobis fiat amicabille
[We are widows removed from our proper home. Reduce us to the spirit, such that our body embraces us and becomes lovable to us.]

8. Leniter cum igne amicabili fac vt aliqua viatentia nos seperare non possit
[Slowly, with loving fire, make it so that no other voyage can separate us.]

[On rim of athanor into which Hermes places the pelican flask:]
ye blacke sea ye blacke luna ye blacke sea ye blacke soll [sol]


http://i.imgur.com/Fc4B2Ov.jpg


From this, we are able to see that these eight circles (or scenes) portray different stages of the Great Work.


One version of The Ripley Scroll gives the following order:

1. Prima Materia 2. Solution 3. Separation 4. Black 5. Black 6. White 7. White 8. Red
L0068461 WMS 693 gives the following order:

1. Prima Materia 2. Solution 3. Black 4. Black 5. Black 6. White 7. White 8. White
MS. Ash. Rolls 40 gives the following order:

1. Prima Materia 2. Solution 3. Black 4. Black 5. Blacker 6. White 7. Whiter 8. Whiter






I do believe that is what separates alchemy from any other philosophical discipline. Both sides of the mind must be addressed in alchemical philosophy. One side is logical and dependent upon reason. The other side is analogical and dependent upon symbolism. Getting both sides of the Mind to work together is the Great Work.

There is more in the scrolls; lots more

Well put!

The Ripley Scroll broods deep with Alchemical symbolism and is worthy of much study. Curious about your friend's essay, zoas!

zoas23
04-24-2017, 04:34 AM
Curious about your friend's essay, zoas!

She returned from Japan yesterday and I saw her today. I have just written to her asking her permission to share her text. I will have to wait for her reply. I hope she agrees, because it's incredibly wise and nice (poetic).

Schmuldvich
08-25-2017, 09:39 PM
She returned from Japan yesterday and I saw her today. I have just written to her asking her permission to share her text. I will have to wait for her reply. I hope she agrees, because it's incredibly wise and nice (poetic).
Any response back?

Dragon's Tail
08-26-2017, 06:01 AM
This post prompted me to check out the site at Yale. I noticed that in that last panel with the 8 circles in the flask (alembic?pelican?) there is only one frame where the furnace is lit. I assume this means crude fire for that step and incubation temp for the others?

JDP
08-26-2017, 06:22 AM
This post prompted me to check out the site at Yale. I noticed that in that last panel with the 8 circles in the flask (alembic?pelican?) there is only one frame where the furnace is lit. I assume this means crude fire for that step and incubation temp for the others?

That frame is obviously showing a distillation operation (notice the side-arm alembic head attached to the top of the flask), and thus requires a stronger heat (shown by the blazing furnace), while the other ones show the flask with a "blind" head attached on top, and therefore are "digestions" carried out at lower temperatures.

Dragon's Tail
08-26-2017, 06:53 AM
That frame is obviously showing a distillation operation (notice the side-arm alembic head attached to the top of the flask), and thus requires a stronger heat (shown by the blazing furnace), while the other ones show the flask with a "blind" head attached on top, and therefore are "digestions" carried out at lower temperatures.

Thinking back on it now, that may have been a stupid question (because pressure). The head caught my interest too. I was counting the flasks in the images and looking closely. Are those mere caps, or upturned smaller flasks,, hmm. I also noted the people around the show, some of them holding inverted flasks signifying that something was being poured in at different stages. The distillation frame here is different from the one at Yale, but both show three bottles that seem to contain some earth, some Mercury, and Sulphur. The following only two flasks. Kind of cool. I've never really looked closely at the Ripley scroll before.

JDP
08-26-2017, 08:10 AM
Thinking back on it now, that may have been a stupid question (because pressure). The head caught my interest too. I was counting the flasks in the images and looking closely. Are those mere caps, or upturned smaller flasks,, hmm. I also noted the people around the show, some of them holding inverted flasks signifying that something was being poured in at different stages. The distillation frame here is different from the one at Yale, but both show three bottles that seem to contain some earth, some Mercury, and Sulphur. The following only two flasks. Kind of cool. I've never really looked closely at the Ripley scroll before.

In the days before rubber stoppers, ground glass joints and condensers, one of the techniques often used to make a "reflux" (or "digestion/digesting" in the old lingo) apparatus was simply to attach an inverted flask/phial to the mouth of the digesting flask.

This series of pictures with the digesting flasks obviously shows the "feeding" or "watering" of the "earth" with the separated portions of "water". According to the technique of the more ancient method (explained very well by Arabic alchemists like Ibn Umail), the "water" was prepared in a manner that carried the "soul", "tincture" or "sulphur" in its "inside", no separation of the two was made (in fact, it was strongly discouraged by the older alchemists to make such a separation, they considered such a thing detrimental.) The "water" (white on the "outside" but red in the "inside") was then usually divided into 9 parts, and the "earth" was gradually (not all at once, since it could "drown" the "earth" and make it very tedious and long in order to coagulate the "water" with it) given 3 portions of the "water" to make the white Stone (the remaining 6 parts were used for making the red Stone.) In the later medieval method, a separation between the white "water" and the red "tincture/sulphur/soul" was made, and each in its turn used to make the white & red Stones.

Dragon's Tail
08-26-2017, 02:10 PM
That's along the lines with how I saw the pictures, thinking of them as a reflux. I've done something similar by busting the stem of martini glasses to place over large wide-mouth jars.

Your words, as I've come to expect from observing this forum, are full of wisdom, and bits of the process reflect some things that I've tried or considered while working with plant matter. And the process of fixing a "too much water" mistake I can kind of resonate with, though I'm sure their experiments were way beyond my current process in the vegetable kingdom. I'll be thinking about this "special water" today. I noticed something in a preparation I'm making that's similar to the description of the "white" carrying the "red," and I have no desire to separate them as, if prepared correctly, they should already be in their most perfect proportions. I doubt I have enough to make 9 portions though, lol, maybe enough to fill a shot glass, but I was planning to add my "portions" via an eyedropper. It's a tiny experiment.

I also need to look up Ibn Umail. I've been reading Geber, and would like to learn more about the Arabic alchemists.

Kiorionis
08-26-2017, 02:24 PM
the process of fixing a "too much water" mistake I can kind of resonate with

Another technique is to carry out the digestion in a retort with reciever. The earth will absorb the water in small amou ts and the rest is vapoured off into the reciever. I've also done this with an alembic, but the moisture distills too quickly.

z0 K
08-26-2017, 04:51 PM
In the days before rubber stoppers, ground glass joints and condensers, one of the techniques often used to make a "reflux" (or "digestion/digesting" in the old lingo) apparatus was simply to attach an inverted flask/phial to the mouth of the digesting flask.

This series of pictures with the digesting flasks obviously shows the "feeding" or "watering" of the "earth" with the separated portions of "water". According to the technique of the more ancient method (explained very well by Arabic alchemists like Ibn Umail), the "water" was prepared in a manner that carried the "soul", "tincture" or "sulphur" in its "inside", no separation of the two was made (in fact, it was strongly discouraged by the older alchemists to make such a separation, they considered such a thing detrimental.) The "water" (white on the "outside" but red in the "inside") was then usually divided into 9 parts, and the "earth" was gradually (not all at once, since it could "drown" the "earth" and make it very tedious and long in order to coagulate the "water" with it) given 3 portions of the "water" to make the white Stone (the remaining 6 parts were used for making the red Stone.) In the later medieval method, a separation between the white "water" and the red "tincture/sulphur/soul" was made, and each in its turn used to make the white & red Stones.

I have to agree with your assessment of the Arabic alchemists saying that the "water" was prepared in a manner that carried the "soul", "tincture" or "sulphur" in its "inside." It is what I've seen in my lab experiments over many years and repetitions of the process upon various forms of biomass.

The Water, Our Blessed Water carries the red soul within it. Some say that red soul is heavy in Elemental Fire. That matter appears to be a water soluble ruby red oil that can be desiccated into a red powder that can be rehydrated back into an oil.

The water in question is not "water of the clouds" as Hollandus calls it. It is water created in the dry distillation at the same time that Elemental Fire and Air are created. It is all mixed in a micro particle vapor stream along with our crude mercury and sulfur. It all ends up together in a stinking foul chaos in the receiver.

The problem is there is almost an endless number of ways to purify and recombine these philosophical elements. Kelly leans toward digesting them together. Hollandus indicates to separate them then purify. Ripley discusses both ways. Hollandus' vegetable stone from dry herbs seems to be similar to Ripleys White Stone or the Stone of the Poor.

My focus now is on the saturation of this blessed Water with the Red Soulfire and Armoniac. One small drop will eat through stainless steel. The hypothesis I'm testing is the White Stone is made with the Blessed Water without being saturated with Red Soulfire, other than the trace naturally in it from the dry distillation. I've made that dry Stone and it is an amazing medicine. How to work the red soulfire extracted from the crude sulfur ultimately into the red stone is where I'm at now. So many ways to proceed so many years spent experimenting and so many more to go it seems.