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elixirmixer
04-17-2017, 09:58 PM
One of the most frustrating aspects of elixir production can sometimes be (at least for me) the calcining of plant ashes.

Obviously an electric kiln is the way to go but for some of us, the electric kiln is in the list of things we can only dream of having, or possibly spend many nights on DIY forums trying to build a brick furnace...

Two questions I have for the forum:

1. If you do not own a kiln, how have you been calcining your plant ashes?

2. If you DO own a kiln, what temperature, and for how long, are you calcining?

elixirmixer
04-17-2017, 10:02 PM
Plant Calcination is a pretty large topic. Potential discussion points:

Do we want glassed salts? If yes, then why? And if no, then why not?

Is it possible to calcine to a red salt like some have elledged after extrended treatments!

How do we evolve plant salts?

The list is endless, but I can't do all the thinking.

IMO salts are one of our most useful principals, in that they can be used to clean out other principals. So te cleaner we can get our salts, the clearer all of our work will be IMO

Axismundi000
04-17-2017, 11:55 PM
In Spagyrics glassed salts go towards the plant stone, plant ash calcined at around 550 Centigrade is for basic Spagyrics. You discuss Hollandus Opera vegetabilia on another thread Elixirmuxer. Hollandus totally condemns the Spagyric approach were material is burned off into the air.

Kiorionis
04-20-2017, 03:06 AM
Do we want glassed salts? If yes, then why? And if no, then why not?

I personally like to consider the qualities and characteristics of glass. Is it easily assimilated into substance? Is it able to volatilize? Does it absorb water, ethanol or other spirits?

Do you want a plant salt to have the characteristics and qualities of glass?

However, I think glass is technically considered a liquid... lol

Andro
04-20-2017, 05:09 AM
I think glass is technically considered a liquid...

At least from an alchemical perspective it is a 'liquid', in a sense... and much more than this... very good point!

Salazius
04-20-2017, 09:37 AM
My two cents : Calcination requires very little things.

First of all, it needs a simple source of fire.

And a dish in unglased earth/potery (no glass, no metal, of course, no pyrex or it will explode) or quartz. Graphite can do the trick or pombagine also, but I'm not for it.

The dish will be with a wide mouth in order to expose properly the ashes to oxygen, this will help the combustion and make them quickly burn and being grey, then white. If you have a lot of matter to burn, then only burn by small layers, it is a question of oxygen here, so a big pile will never really burn properly.

There is no need to fuse the salts, or to heat it strongly, generally it is counter productive. If they turn blue, then you screwed it, because it extracted ions from the dish, and now they are spoiled with cancerous matter. Just a good dish is enough, no oven, no special crucible, no extra white colgate ashes needed. Makes not really a big difference IMO.

elixirmixer
04-20-2017, 09:55 AM
You discuss Hollandus Opera vegetabilia on another thread Elixirmuxer. Hollandus totally condemns the Spagyric approach were material is burned off into the air.

I have considered that after the fire element has been extracted and our bio mass ceases to yield it's colour, that we then calcine our earth. Mind you, this is just an assumption of mine, I'm very much looking forward to experimenting with this.

I am personally of the school of thought that plant ashes ought not to be calcined to glass, but rather, as best and as long as you can without it turning to a liquid.

I also seek a way to calcine salts to redness reliably, if anyone has read anything about this process I would really appreciate a point in the right direction :)

Allow me a moment to have you consider... You could boil lead all day, but you will not achieve it's redness, yet if you roast galena then the redness comes out.

The Fool, in Anthology I, refers to David Hudsons annealing of gold, and speaks of a red colour after certain roastings.

I'm not sure if glass is the way, although, I did use it in my last Vinegar Ens Melissa mix, and there didn't seem to be a problem.

RED Salts!!! What does this colour change represent? Dam Alchemy is cool :cool:

Axismundi000
04-20-2017, 10:14 AM
I use these for calcinating plant salts and they do produce a redness sometimes. I wonder if this is a contamination effect or a normal effect in the absence of glaze. Perhaps that is why they are called rose crucible.

https://www.coleparmer.co.uk/p/coorstek-unglazed-rose-crucible/14678

I'm sure there a much cheaper alternatives but I don't calcinate plant salts that often and they are a nice size.

elixirmixer
04-20-2017, 11:21 AM
How long did you calcine for to get your redness axis? Was this glass or powder?

Amon
04-20-2017, 11:59 AM
I use a porcelain crucible and a common gas burner. I let it burn for quite a while and the salts do get red hot (although they lose the redness after 15-20 min). But i am just an amateur, listening to the big guns here would be wise

Axismundi000
04-20-2017, 01:12 PM
How long did you calcine for to get your redness axis? Was this glass or powder?

The redness only came into the salts when I fused the salts at 1000 Centigrade. My cheap little electric kiln can only reach 1000 degrees and it was bought specifically for plant works. The salts were white with red tinge but I wonder if this was due to the crucible because it is called a rose crucible and the inside of the crucible apart from the salts was also very red.

JDP
04-20-2017, 06:39 PM
My two cents : Calcination requires very little things.

First of all, it needs a simple source of fire.

And a dish in unglased earth/potery (no glass, no metal, of course, no pyrex or it will explode) or quartz. Graphite can do the trick or pombagine also, but I'm not for it.

The dish will be with a wide mouth in order to expose properly the ashes to oxygen, this will help the combustion and make them quickly burn and being grey, then white. If you have a lot of matter to burn, then only burn by small layers, it is a question of oxygen here, so a big pile will never really burn properly.

There is no need to fuse the salts, or to heat it strongly, generally it is counter productive. If they turn blue, then you screwed it, because it extracted ions from the dish, and now they are spoiled with cancerous matter. Just a good dish is enough, no oven, no special crucible, no extra white colgate ashes needed. Makes not really a big difference IMO.

The problem with this approach is that you can only heat the calcining dish from below (with a gas burner or with burning coals/wood, or with an electric plate), so the upper parts of the material being calcined do not get as hot as the ones below, closer to the bottom of the dish, so as you say, you have to do it in thinner layers, which takes more time and effort to accomplish. But by using furnaces/ovens/kilns you can heat the calcining dish and its contents from ALL directions, so the whole material gets evenly heated, and thus the calcination is performed faster and more conveniently.

Axismundi000
04-21-2017, 11:53 AM
The redness only came into the salts when I fused the salts at 1000 Centigrade. My cheap little electric kiln can only reach 1000 degrees and it was bought specifically for plant works. The salts were white with red tinge but I wonder if this was due to the crucible because it is called a rose crucible and the inside of the crucible apart from the salts was also very red.


I just went back and checked. The lemon balm salts had redness but the Rosemary salts not. There was no 'secret way' I just calcinated them on a stove and when that had gone as far as it could put them in the kiln and cranked it up to 1000 Centigrade. Sorry to quote myself here it's just the redness only happened one time.

elixirmixer
08-11-2017, 10:35 PM
I really do wish you old bastards were more interactive when it comes to the practical Spagyrics of this website.

There can't be any harm to the art or to other people to help others make higher quality medicinal products.

Calcinations:

So I've been experimenting with calcination techniques. I've come to accept that so far Zoas was the closest to the mark with his "400 degrees for thirty hours" I would go as far as to say that 440 degrees for 40 hours is basically the perfect white snow calcination.

I really do want to know the scientific way to move salts from white into the citrine and red. I'm hoping that the more chemistry minded amongst you may be able to explain how it is that additional oxygen molecules find their way into our carbonates to form oxides.

I'm really looking for someone who would like to work on Spagyrics simultaneously and exchange a more interesting and interactive engagement than what we are used to from the spagyrics around here... Call me ;)

Another thing i think I've noticed, when you guys evaporate your water from your plant ashes, do you boil the water? Last time I did some ashes and I just had it on a raging boil, but I'm starting to think that boiling the ashes in part volatizes them, because my yield was significantly lower than usual. Have you had any of these results?

I've totally unlocked some Spagyric secrets that I've never seen written anywhere and that significantly upgrades the regular Spagyric elixir into something that is altogether quite special.

These secrets are free to those who actively, and for the sake of humanities medicinal evolution, share their experiences, advice and other knowledge bases, with the group.

Dragon's Tail
08-23-2017, 11:15 PM
elixermixer, first, I'm a fan of yours, but you never knew it because I've been hiding in the shadows, but the mods were nice enough to accept my application. Are you talking about an initial calcining to get your white, or after recrystalization. The reason calcined "ash" will turn white is because the calcium carbonate is turning into calcium oxide, better known as "burnt lime," and it's the principal ingredient in concrete. I've since calcined only until everything becomes a light gray, and then go straight to purifying and washing. Mine might be the wrong ideology, but I think those calcium salts probably have a better use.

Then again, I could be completely wrong, as CaO will form a strong hydroxide in water while CaCO3 will barely dissolve at all. I call it "the dark serpent" because of the way it falls out of solution when heating for my first recrystallization. With the water still hot, I filter the serpent out from my other dissolved salts. This is dangerous and can break glass vessels if you aren't careful, but my methodology makes it a bit safer ;) I used to follow the crowd on this and calcine all the ash, but I find lower temperatures and extracting less-soluble salts to be better in my experiments, though it's much less. Most of what I have left is K2CO3, for sure. But if dried carefully and fully before raising the temp (IE not anywhere near boiling temps) something else is contained in the salt, which I only discovered when the temp was below boiling, but still hot enough to cause a visible vapor. I don't know what this mystery salt is, but my gut tells me it's important. It will only volitize when wet, and only above a certain temp.

Just my thoughts from experimentation. I haven't been able to find anything, scientific, alchemical, or spagyrical, about this substance or its quirky nature.

theFool
02-27-2019, 04:41 PM
Here is an example of plant calcination with pictures:

https://www.alchemywebsite.com/steve_kalec.html

He is calcining for days. Watch the end result, it is a much smaller volume than the one he started with.


I really do want to know the scientific way to move salts from white into the citrine and red. I'm hoping that the more chemistry minded amongst you may be able to explain how it is that additional oxygen molecules find their way into our carbonates to form oxides.

I'm really looking for someone who would like to work on Spagyrics simultaneously and exchange a more interesting and interactive engagement than what we are used to from the spagyrics around here... Call me ;) I find the topic of plant ash calcination interesting from the theoretical point of view. We know that plant ash has mainly potassium carbonate in it. With calcination and dissolution we somehow get rid of this and we acquire an unknown salt that was hiding in there. In this thread we suspect that the white salts can not be potassium carbonate according to their properties:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3193-Hot-Plates-and-Calcination&highlight=Calcination
(for example they dont melt in high temperature. Potassium carbonate does. Also they seem to boil off with water.)

The question is how the process of calcination can remove the potassium carbonate and leave the white salts? Both of them are soluble in water but something happens during the process. If anyone is interested discussing a possible theory we can continue.

Florius Frammel
02-27-2019, 04:49 PM
Have you done some basic qualitative analysis to see if carbonate, potassium and other ions are present?

I'd do that first, then after having ruled out some possible ingredients, speculate on others and subsequently test those.

I'd say he got K2O due to prolonged heating, which deliquecses and forms KOH.

Similar things take place when CaCO3 is heated on high temperatures after some time.

Just an idea.

Kiorionis
02-27-2019, 04:59 PM
The question is how the process of calcination can remove the potassium carbonate and leave the white salts? Both of them are soluble in water but something happens during the process. If anyone is interested discussing a possible theory we can continue.

Lately I’ve been considering ‘philosophical calcination’ of plant matter, such as an acid-to-base reaction/extraction, or to precipitate the salts out of solution.

In a way it could still be calcination, but without the heat.

theFool
02-27-2019, 05:06 PM
Lately I’ve been considering ‘philosophical calcination’ of plant matter, such as an acid-to-base reaction/extraction, or to precipitate the salts out of solution.

In a way it could still be calcination, but without the heat. Yes, we are suspecting this in this thread:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1659-Plant-Ash-Precipitate
but, there is a major difference between the calcined white salts and the acid-base extracted precipitate. The former are soluble in water while the latter is not. So one cannot continue the spagyrics process unless he finds a way to somehow make them soluble. This could involve reduction in a reverberating furnace for example but this is just my wild guess.

theFool
02-27-2019, 05:16 PM
Have you done some basic qualitative analysis to see if carbonate, potassium and other ions are present?

I'd do that first, then after having ruled out some possible ingredients, speculate on others and subsequently test those. No, I haven't made those salts that require days of calcination. Few people on this forum say they have done it.


I'd say he got K2O due to prolonged heating, which deliquecses and forms KOH. You think that the white salts are KOH?

My idea is that the potassium carbonate decomposes with high heat (we can see this in wikipedia, it has no boiling point and in other publications). After a few days it is evaporated-disintegrated leaving behind an unknown salt. If the high heat can render it insoluble, this would fit my theory well too, but I haven't found any possible process that can do that (there are no insoluble salts of potassium!). Just untested ideas, but this is my guess.

theFool
02-27-2019, 05:35 PM
Here is a relevant publication:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239372324_Thermal_Stability_of_Potassium_Carbonate _Near_Its_Melting_Point

We read that:


TGA and DTA analyses indicate that significant volatilization occurs below the melting point
Isn't that strange. What would happen if you leave a minute quantity of potassium carbonate in a hot kiln for few days? Will it disappear completely?

theFool
02-27-2019, 05:52 PM
Some more research shows that K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) decomposes to K2O (potassium oxide). The potassium oxide with heat, decomposes eventually to potassium metal which has a boiling point of 759 C (evaporates at lower temperature too). So in the end of a lengthy calcination K2CO3 probably leaves nothing behind...

(detailed equations: K2CO3 --> K2O + CO2 , 2 K2O --> K2O2 + 2 K , 2 K2O2 --> 2 K2O + O2 finally the only solid product is K which has a low boiling point and evaporates as it is formed)

theFool
02-27-2019, 05:57 PM
About the required temperatures:


The thermal decomposition of potassium oxide to produce potassium peroxide and potassium. This reaction takes place at a temperature of 350-430°C.
Source: https://chemiday.com/en/reaction/3-1-0-6728

From wikipedia we see that K2O2 "decomposes from 300 °C"

About the K2CO3 decomposition towards K2O I don't know yet.

From the above reactions we see that calcination at around 400 C is a minimum temperature for the decomposition to start taking place.

Florius Frammel
02-27-2019, 06:11 PM
I don't know either.
What counts for CaCO3 doesn't automatically count for K2CO3 too.

However, if you say there is a significant decrease in volume (and mass?) of the salt, I assume that the carbonate may fly away in form of CO2. That would significantly alter the qualities of the remaining salt.

Adding an acid would lead to a release of CO2 immediately and alter the salt as well. That's what I think what Kiorionis suggests, if I understand him right.

If you would do that with acetic acid/vinegar for example, you'd get potassium acetate. A salt with very interesting chemical(!) properties and real fun to play with.

Nevertheless, the K2O that forms like I suspected will react with humidity and form KOH. The historical soap making process involves plant ashes after all and nowadays is done with KOH/NaOH (and fats).

theFool
02-27-2019, 06:16 PM
Similar things take place when CaCO3 is heated on high temperatures after some time.

Just an idea. Could it be that the "white salts" after calcination are CaO (unslaked lime) produced from the calcium carbonate? I think they are not because the solubility of CaOH (lime) in water is low. According to wikipedia the figures are:
1.89 g/L (0 °C)
1.73 g/L (20 °C)
0.66 g/L (100 °C)

From the step #7 of Steve Kalec's page (https://www.alchemywebsite.com/steve_kalec.html) we see that the salts are dissolved in a bottle of hot water (lets say 2 L?). Is this amount of water able to dissolve the CaO (if it is the "white salt")? In that case his yield in step 8 would be only around 2-3 grams. Judging from the pic I think it is more.

Florius Frammel
02-27-2019, 06:37 PM
Could it be that the "white salts" after calcination are CaO (unslaked lime) produced from the calcium carbonate? I think they are not because the solubility of CaOH (lime) in water is low. According to wikipedia the figures are:
1.89 g/L (0 °C)
1.73 g/L (20 °C)
0.66 g/L (100 °C)

From the step #7 of Steve Kalec's page (https://www.alchemywebsite.com/steve_kalec.html) we see that the salts are dissolved in a bottle of hot water (lets say 2 L?). Is this amount of water able to dissolve the CaO (if it is the "white salt")? In that case his yield in step 8 would be only around 2-3 grams. Judging from the pic I think it is more.

Of course it's possible as plant ash contains Ca2+ ions too.

When CaO is soluted in water the solution gets warm and it is forming Ca(OH)2 - slaked lime. Which in turn can be used to form KOH out of potash..
But the K+ don't disappear. You will always have a mixture of different salts in plant ash. Other ions are there too.

theFool
02-27-2019, 07:06 PM
But the K+ don't disappear. You will always have a mixture of different salts in plant ash. Other ions are there too.There must be a way that the bulk of them disappears somehow. I can think of decomposition or by transforming into insolubles. In the end result, the "white salts", must be composed mainly by unknown salts. Other ions/known chemical salts might be there too but they must not be the main ingredient. Else, there is nothing "spagyric" or "alchemic" with this salt, it will be just common chemical salts. At least I can't imagine how those common salts could perform anything special in alchemy.

Florius Frammel
02-27-2019, 07:17 PM
What is that special performance you have in mind here?

theFool
02-27-2019, 08:07 PM
What is that special performance you have in mind here?
For example, why a spagyric medicine is/should be better than a simple tincture extract of the plant?

Kiorionis
02-27-2019, 11:26 PM
Maybe the unknown is just a bunch of carbon?


For example, why a spagyric medicine is/should be better than a simple tincture extract of the plant?

If we look at plant biology, we find that there are three ‘categories’ of molecules: acids (fatty acid chains, acetic acid, citric acid, etc), alkalis, and neutral compounds (usually alcohols like ethanol). Obviously this is a redefinition of the alchemical Salt, Sulphur and Mercury.

The neutral compounds are the medium in which the acids and alkalis are provoked into chemical reactions, as well as providing heat-displacement. It’s my current hypothesis that a spagyric tincture is closer to a ‘living’ botanical on account of the presence of its plant salts. Obviously it’s missing the bioelectricity, structure, function, Will and life which was present in the living plant, but it still maintains its essential qualities and virtues.

I also think the plant salts retain some of the memory of the plant, like DNA, but that is just an amusing thought.

It’s also interesting to note that human biology functions in much the same way, a fairly neutral soup in which acids react with alkalis.

Florius Frammel
02-28-2019, 05:36 AM
It is very likely that we can discard your carbon theory.
That whole process of prolonged calcination should be stopped when the salt is pure white. That's at least what all the modern spagyrics books I read suggest (Junius, Riedel).

If it is not all white, you can take it for granted that there are still some "organic" molecules/salts, elementary carbon left, that haven't decomposed entirely by the means of fire.

Those remaining organic salts and compounds you mention, if still there after exceeded heating, are most likely discarded when filtering the spagyrical "caput mortum".

The whole process of calcination most likely leads to a residue of water soluble "inorganic" salts.

I tested some plant ash, calcinated plant ash and combustion products myself. Mostly there is K+, CO32-, Ca2+, PO43-, Na+, Mg2+, Cl-, and some other ions left in the white salt residue (not heated so long like Steve Kalic did).

Store bought spagyrics have been tested by an institution called "Stiftung Warentest" -a magazine to protect people from false promises, or poor products, which found no significant effect beyond placebo.

If there should be something worthwhile inside Low Spagyric remedies regarding health benefits, official chemistry and empirical tests have not found it yet.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything worthwhile at all, but it is most likely you won't find it with current scientific means. You'll have to think about other possibilities, if you are inclined to do more research here. I am currently not, BTW.

zoas23
02-28-2019, 12:28 PM
Some more research shows that K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) decomposes to K2O (potassium oxide). The potassium oxide with heat, decomposes eventually to potassium metal which has a boiling point of 759 C (evaporates at lower temperature too). So in the end of a lengthy calcination K2CO3 probably leaves nothing behind...

(detailed equations: K2CO3 --> K2O + CO2 , 2 K2O --> K2O2 + 2 K , 2 K2O2 --> 2 K2O + O2 finally the only solid product is K which has a low boiling point and evaporates as it is formed)


My experience (from several years ago) is that potassium carbonate heated to some 800C becomes a green crystal, whilst if you go further (some 1200C), then it forms a similar crystal, but deep blue.

The crystal is similar to a piece of any crystal-like stone (i.e, quartz)... So it's not soluble in water, alcohol, acetone... And keeping it under a strong heat does not make it volatile.

Several years ago a few of us commented this issue and we didn't know the reason, but (if I am remembering correctly), Salazius found the chemical explanation.

Andro
02-28-2019, 12:37 PM
My experiment from years ago:



Once, I have tested to see what happens if I heat whitened plant salts to around 1200°C for a more extended period of time.

They didn't vitrify, and didn't become more white either, as it can be seen below. Here is a picture taken after the salts cooled:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/BlueCalcinedPotash1.jpg

I've discussed the appearance of the blue color with two friends from here. I don't remember the chemical explanations or the alchemical implications.

Some of the explanations came from the Internet.

Here is a picture found on the Internet, displaying a similar effect with Tartar Salts after being calcined at high temperatures:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/BlueTartar2_zps776ca7a0.gif


And here is the comment from Salazius:



Seemingly the blueish colour comes from ions of iron or any other contaminant, and they are dangerous for health, since they can cause cancer.

Florius Frammel
02-28-2019, 12:58 PM
I agree.
Most likely it's an ion of a "heavy/transition metal" as those, according to chemistry, possess d-Orbitals. The electrons of these orbitals can easily get into an animated (by light), state of higher energy. The electrons tend to fall back into their state of lower energy and in doing so release again the energy they got from light before. This released energy has the same frequency/wavelength of a color of our visible spectrum. That's the scientific explanation why we see colors and that's especially the case when heavy metal ions are bound with certain other ions or molecules in so called "complexes" (see also Labdesigner's explanation approach of high alchemy in the mineral realm). Of course there are other substances that show colors, but it's always explained with that principle. And I doubt that some organic dye like an azo-compound would "survive" such high temperatures.

Colored glass is based on that principle. In green glass for example oftentimes Lead compounts were added, Cobalt for blue, Gold purple, aso..

I'm a bit surprised that iron is responsible for the blue color, as I connect red to yellow with it.

It would also be interesting to know where the contamination comes from. Did you use a metal spoon to stir the salts?

I think Tartar Salts -if calcinated- should show a similar composition of ions like in calcinated plant ash. See also:

https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/alchemic-authors-1833-x/manfred-junius-and-the-volatilization-of-tartar/

Ions of Iron are not responsible for cancer. Your blood naturally contains a lot of iron ions. Other heavy metal ions on the other hand can be responsible for causing cancer.

zoas23
02-28-2019, 01:43 PM
My messy memory. I got confused between some things that Salazius did and some things that Andro did.
I definitely got a vitrification and I am sure I have used dry Melissa (as opposed to fresh).

I didn't find any use for this crystal (I remember I got a big single piece, not many tiny crystals like table salt). It was an opaque crystal (i.e, not translucent at all).

Could it be that it is not really a contamination, but the iron that many vegetables naturally contain?

Kiorionis
02-28-2019, 02:25 PM
I tested some plant ash, calcinated plant ash and combustion products myself. Mostly there is K+, CO32-, Ca2+, PO43-, Na+, Mg2+, Cl-, and some other ions left in the white salt residue (not heated so long like Steve Kalic did).

Store bought spagyrics have been tested by an institution called "Stiftung Warentest" -a magazine to protect people from false promises, or poor products, which found no significant effect beyond placebo.

If there should be something worthwhile inside Low Spagyric remedies regarding health benefits, official chemistry and empirical tests have not found it yet.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything worthwhile at all, but it is most likely you won't find it with current scientific means. You'll have to think about other possibilities, if you are inclined to do more research here. I am currently not, BTW.

As far as the health benefits of Potassium, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, and Chlorine go, they’re fairly essential electrolytes and nutrients.

In my mind, there’s a difference between a Spagyric tincture’s chemical composition and the same tincture’s action within the body.

But that’s all beside the point.

Based on what you’re saying, the majority of the carbon atoms decompose or volitalize with heavy calcination?


—————————

I think the color change is a chemical reaction between the salts and the calcination dish. Clay and porcelain and graphite crucibles/dishes all have a mix of compounds in them, especially clay.

I might have the time coming up to calcine some salts at high temp for a few days in either a quartz dish or a glass dish, which should drastically reduce the chance of chemical contamination.


I'm a bit surprised that iron is responsible for the blue color, as I connect red to yellow with it.

If I remember correctly this all depends on the crystal matrix and how it diffracts light. Beryl crystals with iron tend to be more blue-green (aquamarine), whereas quartz crystals tend to be more brown-orange-red (rose quartz).

But then again crystal colors are usually formed out of various metals within the matrix.

Florius Frammel
02-28-2019, 03:06 PM
Could it be that it is not really a contamination, but the iron that many vegetables naturally contain?

It's possible. But I guess it is there in relatively few quantites. The ratio increases when other "volatilized" compounds leave the mixture though.



As far as the health benefits of Potassium, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, and Chlorine go, they’re fairly essential electrolytes and nutrients.

Yes, but the dosage of them in your average spagyrical tincture is rather small compared to even an ordinary salad you can eat instead to get them.



Based on what you’re saying, the majority of the carbon atoms decompose or volitalize with heavy calcination?

Yes, besides those in the carbonate ion (CO32-). And even those seem to transform into CO2 and leave the mixture during prolonged excessive heating like theFool has researched in some chemistry book.



In my mind, there’s a difference between a Spagyric tincture’s chemical composition and the same tincture’s action within the body.

If it's really benefical I would we very happy. I like cheap, handmade remedies. Unfortunately I'm not convinced.


I think the color change is a chemical reaction between the salts and the calcination dish. Clay and porcelain and graphite crucibles/dishes all have a mix of compounds in them, especially clay.

I might have the time coming up to calcine some salts at high temp for a few days in either a quartz dish or a glass dish, which should drastically reduce the chance of chemical contamination. If I remember correctly this all depends on the crystal matrix and how it diffracts light. Beryl crystals with iron tend to be more blue-green (aquamarine), whereas quartz crystals tend to be more brown-orange-red (rose quartz).

But then again crystal colors are usually formed out of various metals within the matrix.

Sounds very plausible!

Kiorionis
02-28-2019, 03:28 PM
Haha well I know theFool’s chemistry knowledge extends a bit further than simple research in books.



Yes, besides those in the carbonate ion (CO32-). And even those seem to transform into CO2 and leave the mixture during prolonged excessive heating like theFool has researched in some chemistry book.

Interesting.



Yes, but the dosage of them in your average spagyrical tincture is rather small compared to even an ordinary salad you can eat instead to get them.

True that they wouldn’t supply a person with enough minerals to sustain themselves, but the point of a spagyric tincture is not for nutritional benefit. I also have my doubts as to the practice of supplementing one herb (spagyric or otherwise) for a health concern. Most traditional herbal medicines consist of complex herb formulas, in which a shit-ton of chemicals are interacting with one another, as well as with human physiology.

Again, a bit off the point.

It would be interesting to see some studies on what compounds are formed after the calcined salts were added back to the tincture and circulated on low heat for a month or two, and how similar or different those compounds were from the original plant compounds, as well as how human physiology might utilize them.

I think if the focus were to remain on the calcined plant matter and it’s viability as a medicine or supplement, it wouldn’t be fair to the final, reconstituted spagyric product.