PDA

View Full Version : Eastern Concepts of Ascension and Alchemy



Visceral
05-06-2017, 07:35 AM
This is a spin-off thread from: (non)Mineral (non)Metal (non)Magnet (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5247-(non)Mineral-(non)Metal-(non)Magnet).

Did 2 pages of this thread just get deleted?

Heres what I can copy paste atm of a very important post

edited. Post was mostly saved and its phoenix form can be seen several posts below

Visceral
05-06-2017, 07:36 AM
Actually it was 3. I still have a tab open to it

Kiorionis
05-06-2017, 07:40 AM
Haha, not deleted, I hope. When I was trying to move our conversation over to a different thread, my finger slipped.. I messaged Awani about it, and I hope he can find them and bring them back. I'd like to continue our conversation.

If you still have the tab open, and can browse through them, it might be a good idea to past them up so I can re-arrange them. If you have the time and patience :)

Visceral
05-06-2017, 07:42 AM
ohhhh

It took my a long time to make that last post. I can find the images again if need be. I do have to sleep now tho, hope you guys figure it out. Much love even though the last few posts disagreed Kio

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5247-(non)Mineral-(non)Metal-(non)Magnet&p=49631&posted=1#post49631

Kiorionis
05-06-2017, 03:40 PM
Well, Visceral, I think only Awani might have the power to bring back those posts. But I believe this was the point where the majority of the conversation began:


Kio, is the technique you're referring to one of the many methods of "conjuring" the Dao, or bio hacking a Delta wave state, or "falling" into Sattori, or one of the other methods of mental backflipping to get your conscious ego mind/frontal lobe out of the way? I long ago lost count of how many of these I've researched and mastered or discarded along the way.

It is not a technique I was referring to, but a system for the conscious sublimation of Self. The book I recommended was 'Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality' by Charles Luk (englishized).


I was in the center of the Sun. 360 degrees of swirling red and orange warmth and pattern. A massive stone Buddha appears before me and swirls with the currents flowing between us. It stops suddenly and extends an infinitely intricate and constantly shifting totem pole down from the head where a spine would be on a human. Arms and legs expand and it begins doing an Egyptian style swing/sway dance. (yes at this point I am freaking out) from the bottom of the "pole" (where your Root Chakra is) I saw a blue/white light appear, form a ball and move steadily upwards from it's own accumulated pressure. This blue/white light flowed upwards activating centers where you and I have Chakras until it reached the Throat Chakra, at which point the face opened it's mouth and shot an intense beam of light straight at me with an unmissable HU formed in the center of the Light

Sounds like a great experience. This type of 'sublimation' is exactly what Charles Luk talks about. Though his guidebook is aimed at making it a conscious, evolutionary process towards the 'Immortal Fetus'. I remember posting something about Luk's description of the external macrocosmic alchemical agent evolving into the external/internal microcosmic agent, and then it's movement through the circulation.

Visceral
05-06-2017, 04:41 PM
This is a spin-off thread from: (non)Mineral (non)Metal (non)Magnet (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5247-(non)Mineral-(non)Metal-(non)Magnet).

Did 2 pages of this thread just get deleted?

Heres what I can copy paste atm of a very important post

Here is a little story to better understand my life. I will cut out a lot of backstory and leave the meat and interesting highlights for you. I can explain these further if need be.

I was in the center of the Sun. 360 degrees of swirling red and orange warmth and pattern. A massive stone Buddha face appears before me and swirls with the currents flowing between us. It stops suddenly and extends an infinitely intricate and constantly shifting totem pole down from the head where a spine would be on a human. Arms and legs expand and it begins doing an Egyptian style swing/sway dance. (yes at this point I am freaking out) from the bottom of the "pole" (where your Root Chakra is) I saw a blue/white light appear, form a ball and move steadily upwards from it's own accumulated pressure. This blue/white light flowed upwards activating centers where you and I have Chakras until it reached the Throat Chakra, at which point the face opened it's mouth and shot an intense beam of light straight at me with an unmissable HU formed in the center of the Light

5 years later I'm in a local coffee shop. This shop has flyers and artsy cards left by various local groups and people. There was one card in particular that I still have on my fridge, that when I saw it I only remembered my coffee because the person making it yelled my name as I turned to leave.



A calling card by the group known as Eckankar

http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e15/1208283_801314899955064_1690608926_n.jpg?ig_cache_ key=OTQxOTI2NjUwMDIzMDI0NjM5.2


I will (as is my habit) use wikipedia here to easily summarize a number of ideas in quick succession. I can elaborate later if you need with other materials, I assure the Reader that not only is this post containing only the truth, the parts of it that have been researched have been carried out as far as this Author is able.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar


However the lineage goes back much further than this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_(Sufism)


In Sufism Hu or Huwa is the pronoun used with Allah or God, and is used as a name of God. Allah Hu means "God, Just He!" In Arabic Allah means God and with Hu, as an intensive added to Allah, means "God himself." Hu is also found in the Islamic credo La Ilaha Ila Allah Hu: "There is no God but Allah," or in Sufi interpretation "There is no reality, except God", or in La Ilaha Ila Huwa meaning "There is no god but He"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BA


The Hummingbird was, and is, an important bird in puebloan cultures. Hopi legend speaks of the Hummingbird as intervening on behalf of the Hopi people to convince the gods to bring rain. Even today Hummingbird feathers are highly prized and used ceremonially and in dance costumes. All Hummingbird Kachinas are depicted with a green mask and green moccasins.

Note the familiar (if you refer to my earlier post that gave away a serious piece of the Reality Puzzle) association of this character intervening on the peoples behalf, and rain.

http://www.hiltonpond.org/images/RTHUAHYM03.jpg

the Ibis

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/79/6f/f5/796ff5984a877f63d5097858d9b804fc.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_(mythology)


Hu (ḥw), in ancient Egypt, was the deification of the first word, the word of creation, that Atum was said to have exclaimed upon ejaculating or, alternatively, his self-castration, in his masturbatory act of creating the Ennead.




Hu and Renenutet
Hu is mentioned already in the Old Kingdom Pyramid texts (PT 251, PT 697) as companion of the deceased pharaoh. Together with Sia, he was depicted in the retinue of Thoth, with whom he was also occasionally identified

https://henadology.wordpress.com/theology/netjeru/hu/


CT spell 325 is for “becoming Hu”. A variant manuscript titles the spell “becoming Heka,” which indicates the tight bond between authoritative utterance and magically effective utterance or heka (cf. spell 1130: “Hu is in company with Heka, felling yonder Ill-disposed One for me”). Unfortunately, the contents of the spell are rather obscure, but it seems to associate Hu with the pacification of the fiery Eye of Re, a role typically accorded to Shu or Thoth. The close relationship between Thoth and Hu is to be expected; accordingly, Thoth is asked at CT spell 617 to “commend me to Hu.” That hu plays a role in supplementing sia is indicated by CT spell 469, in which it is said that “the weary (or inert) Sia” sends for “the two Hu-Gods” – possibly the two senses of hu mentioned above, since it is said that they shall permit one to “eat magic” – who accordingly “shall have power over Sia the weary, who is not equipped with what he needs.” It is perhaps this partial independence of hu from sia which is indicated by a statement like that in CT spell 1136 that “Hu who speaks in darkness belongs to me.” Also related to this may be the characterization of Hu in PT utterance 245 as having for companion the “Lone Star” – that is, a star visible when no others can be seen, hence either Venus (Hesperus) or Jupiter (Journal of Near Eastern Studies 25, 160f).

Something of the nature of hu can be discerned from BD spell 84, where the operator says “What Hu tells me, that have I said. I have not told lies yesterday and truth today.” It is not simply that hu is inconsistent with lying; rather, hu seems to be a consistent ground for what one says. This accords well with the image presented in Egyptian didactic literature of the sage as a person of few words, but those well-chosen.

Blackman, A. M. “The King of Egypt’s Grace Before Meat.” Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 31, 1945, pp. 57-73.

If you ever have occasion to stumble into the presence of an Ascended One, I assure you there will be no conversation on your part. There will be very little said and a great deal eventually learned by you from it.

https://lookinnotout.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/thoth_hermes_mercury1.jpg

Also, they may dance in your bewildered face. It is known

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a6/ba/1b/a6ba1b4a4bb6d39a47d3d20954b6438c.jpg

(the left one just kills me)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LXv1xKPKuuo/T_EN-lC4hcI/AAAAAAAAA8Q/Q6mxuunbN-w/s1600/scan0017.jpg


eat magic

http://www.egyptology.com/reeder/egyptart/portfolio/pharaonic/thoth-seti-abydos.jpg

Note the root of the word "Human"

Visceral
05-06-2017, 04:59 PM
It appears that in this mix up that occurred also deleted the post my above post here is referring to, which is a great loss as it summarized much information valuable to a true spiritual seeker and useful to the Wise.

I shall do my best to repost it as soon as I am able, as this knowledge is both the birthright of all humanity and of a necessity must be joined with the aforementioned points of Hu for my position to come through.

In this short post, the Reader may find it interesting to investigate the connection between Thoth/Prometheus/Enki/Odin/Hermes/Hu/Oannes/Quetzlcoatl.

Schmuldvich
05-06-2017, 05:04 PM
Excellent research into Hu! Thank you for taking the time to compile and share that with us! My friend does Tibetan throat-singing and has explained to me the different facets of the root sounds; OM, AH, HU, etc.



"OM MANI PADME HUM"



Have you been to any Eckankar events?

Visceral
05-06-2017, 05:21 PM
Excellent research into Hu! Thank you for taking the time to compile and share that with us! My friend does Tibetan throat-singing and has explained to me the different facets of the root sounds; OM, AH, HU, etc.



"OM MANI PADME HUM"



Have you been to any Eckankar events?

I have not, as I am essentially a Hermit and group events or anything of that sort are an immediate turn off for me.

I would really, really, REALLY love if you could elaborate more on these root sounds? I have been leaning towards the direction of thought whereby the Antediluvian civilization that occurs in every mythos in history had almost certainly mastered vibrational techniques based on root sounds such as those, magnified with various pieces of equipment meant to magnify those resonances, and this is where primitive man stole his idea for wearing jewelry from.

Anything at all on a list of those sounds, what frequencies they're known to oscillate at, their associated entity, all these things will I praise you for O schum!

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI-SVA-HAAAA

Schmuldvich
05-06-2017, 06:43 PM
I would really, really, REALLY love if you could elaborate more on these root sounds? I have been leaning towards the direction of thought whereby the Antediluvian civilization that occurs in every mythos in history had almost certainly mastered vibrational techniques based on root sounds such as those, magnified with various pieces of equipment meant to magnify those resonances, and this is where primitive man stole his idea for wearing jewelry from.

Anything at all on a list of those sounds, what frequencies they're known to oscillate at, their associated entity, all these things will I praise you for O schum!

Here is a short video he made demonstrating the four sounds OHM AHH HYUU ONG



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObH7nmf95FM

Here is his channel with more videos that will interest you: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClW08nTV07H986syxDnDU4w

And a written post somewhat on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deathmetal/comments/5q0hyu/tibetan_throat_singing_is_the_key_to_maturing/

-------------------------------------------

"...I am essentially a Hermit and group events or anything of that sort are an immediate turn off for me". Me too, haha. I assume you live in L.A. It's such a hustle bustle busy city but I find serenity in falling back and being able to swim peacefully in the sea of anonymity.

Cymatics is something worth researching further if you are not already familiar with the subject. So much can be learned from this study. I believe there is significant power in resonant frequencies and a Key we will profitably use in the future.

Regarding Ascension, I think this picture sums it up best...



http://i.imgur.com/FWkd9GJ.jpg

Kiorionis
05-07-2017, 01:20 PM
I shall do my best to repost it as soon as I am able

Lovely, thanks. I'm looking forward to reading it.

I'll make sure the mixup doesn't happen again.


Edit:


I have been leaning towards the direction of thought whereby the Antediluvian civilization that occurs in every mythos in history had almost certainly mastered vibrational techniques based on root sounds such as those, magnified with various pieces of equipment meant to magnify those resonances, and this is where primitive man stole his idea for wearing jewelry from.

Anything at all on a list of those sounds, what frequencies they're known to oscillate at, their associated entity, all these things will I praise you for O schum!

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI-SVA-HAAAA

You might enjoy these threads:

Musical Sublimation (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4730-Musical-Sublimation&highlight=musical+sublimation)
The Universal Language (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5233-The-Universal-Language&highlight=frequency)
Do Mantras Work? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4815-Do-Mantras-work&highlight=frequency)
Music of the Spheres (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?445-Music-of-the-Spheres&highlight=frequency)

zoas23
05-08-2017, 08:19 AM
I read well the SM thread and took both your and Andros and GLs posts as containing true wisdom.

I have and continue to explore many variations of many tests. Some things I know well, other things I know not at all. I have activated my Merkaba and I fear no Dissolution of my consciousness in any possible realm any further. I have traveled the Elusian fields and seen the Minotaur who guards the Labyrinth. I defeated the Labyrinth and made it to the center and discovered the "plug" that holds our entire Omniverse from "falling" into the next one. I have seen the True Yggdrasill with my own eyes. I watched the Tree of Life gather what I would now describe as True Mundi, all golden sparkles being drawn in through it's roots to the tips to coagulate as dew drops to expand and give birth to all forms of creation. I saw these drops pop if they failed to pass the Test of Life and watched their energy return to the Soil to be again Re-Assimilated by the Tree. I saw the the ones that pass this test solidify with their own inherent existence and pop off the Tree and float into the sky to become their own Buddhaverses and stars in the Astral Realm. I understand very well the connection of Nature and the begetting of Seeds and how these lead to Life.

I have, with my own two hands, constructed what I can only honestly describe (perhaps I am wrong and do not know) as the most powerful plant subtance obtainable by man. It is a white crystalline substance occasionally red/yellow, occasionally as a gummy caramel-esque oil and when simply treated correctly with heat it opens a stable and reliable wormhole to what can only be described as another dimension. If there be more powerful plant magic than this, I can only say I do not wish to know of it.

Through (and probably because of all this) I have developed within myself several variations of what Hindu Yogis would refer to as Siddis. I can walk on handrails the width of two fingers with ease. Headstands, standing on my hands, almost all physical activity is as a childish trick to my mind. I am not even concerned with it, and so it comes easily.

One of the processes involved in activating a Merkaba is the unblocking of your Chakras and the clearing of your Kundalini Pathways. A side effect of this is I am almost never tired until it is obviously time for me to sleep. From waking until sleeping and even at work I am engaged in an activity that is somehow related to my goals.

Having achieved immortality of the consciousness, my only real goals now are to achieve a physical body that will endure until I am ready to pass onwards and the way I have discovered is known to us as the Philosophers Stone. The descriptions of the Stone meet every need I conceivably have right now, as my deepest desire at the moment is a private abode to conduct my research in without needing to engage in day to day distractions, like work.

If I had all the wealth in the world you can be sure the world itself would benefit from it immensely and you would probably never learn my real name. I could not be less interested in attention or adulation.

What I am after is True Knowledge.

Unlike Kiorionis, I am not sure if this is related to alchemy or not.
I had been very close to someone (former girlfriend) who was the local authority of a strange and certainly not orthodox school of Yoga that is only somehow popular in South America and strangely in France.... though it is a Cult in the worst sense of the word (obligation to worship its founder/master daily, prohibition of reading literature that is not authorized by him, very precise instructions about when and how to sleep, when and how to eat, when and how and with whom have sex, instructions about who can be your friends, prohibition of discussing or even commenting the literature written by the founder: it had to be repeated... there were even "reading sessions" which simply consisted in reading something written by this person, but it was strictly forbidden to even make a positive comment ... a bit like Scientology, but probably a bit less sinister). The school followed an initiatic scheme and this person had all the possible "grades".

Some curiosities I saw:

1) This person was 100% brainwashed.

2) The high grade instructions were 100% related to an internal alchemy in very explicit ways, but the students and even the main instructors had NO idea about this issue. I do not mean that the texts had SOME resemblance with alchemy, but that they were very explicit, except that they never mentioned such thing.

3) No lab practices were used at all. I remember I was very much into Spagyrics by then and the main local authority was VERY surprised that so many things could come from a plant (I was honestly not doing anything quite advanced or relevant).

4) Due to the close relationship, I had been able to see "physical techniques" which were never shown in public and I can confess that they were jaw dropping to say the least (i.e, this woman could support the whole of her weight in just one finger for very long times and keep a conversation -I saw her doing it for almost an hour once). Whilst standing in one finger she could place the whole of her body in an horizontal position and then switch to a vertical position and then switch to a position similar to being seated, but without touching the floor)... and even keep a conversation about any random subject whilst doing it as if she was sitting in a comfortable chair. She trained for some 8 to 12 hours a day though. I have never seen something like that before and I doubt I will see it again (other than that, MY theory is that it was the result of a very obsessive practice of physical skills)

5) If I ignore her obsession with the worship of the founder of the school as if he was God, her ideas were symbolically VERY related to alchemy, but she had no idea of such thing.

6) Even the famous symbol by Maier: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1c/16/9e/1c169e0242cc464bf3b56eeb1c9a8e01.jpg was used extensively as to define the "grades", but NOBODY knew who was Maier and they were taught that it was a "secret Yoga symbol".

So, whilst I have clear mystical tendencies, I am not sure if achieving one thing in an "internal alchemy" leads to discovering how to do something analogous at a lab... nor I know if discovering something at the lab necessarily leads to very special physical skills (I somehow mean very unusual and truly jaw dropping "athletic" skills). I do not see a contradiction at all, but I do not necessarily see a "link" either (I mean the idea that one things necessarily is linked to the other).

Then again, I can accept that I am a bit clumsy when it comes to physical athletic disciplines and I did some tai-chi too for a short time and I was quite unable to coordinate the most basic movements, I'm not gifted at all for such things.

These are just comments, not a criticism. Do you see a SOLID link between an alchemical practice and "athletic" skills?

Kiorionis
05-08-2017, 11:32 AM
Visceral,

I've moved your most recent and lengthy post here:

Hermeticism, Alchemy and Ancient Civilizations -- A Gift (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5263-Hermeticism-Alchemy-and-Ancient-Civilizations-A-Gift)

Not dealing specifically with the Eastern lineages, and being quite broad, I felt it needed it's own thread. I'll delete this post in a few days to clean things up.

Kiorionis
05-08-2017, 11:35 AM
Unlike Kiorionis, I am not sure if this is related to alchemy or not.

Perhaps not the typical, external laboratory approach the West is used to -- but Visceral makes a small statement of how it relates to Alchemy:


my only real goals now are to achieve a physical body that will endure until I am ready to pass onwards and the way I have discovered is known to us as the Philosophers Stone.

Visceral
05-08-2017, 07:09 PM
Visceral,

I've moved your most recent and lengthy post here:

Hermeticism, Alchemy and Ancient Civilizations -- A Gift (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5263-Hermeticism-Alchemy-and-Ancient-Civilizations-A-Gift)

Not dealing specifically with the Eastern lineages, and being quite broad, I felt it needed it's own thread. I'll delete this post in a few days to clean things up.

Thank you, I was thinking I was going to need my own (well titled) thread to complete the idea anyway. Would it be possible to also have the post on Hu moved over there so I don't need to repeat it there manually?

edit. or perhaps simply copy it there? The two posts tie in to each other but this thread would also be very nice for summarizing ideas and questions relating directly to discussion of the Ascension process

Visceral
05-08-2017, 07:33 PM
These are just comments, not a criticism. Do you see a SOLID link between an alchemical practice and "athletic" skills?

I do indeed, though as you point out a person is very capable of developing astounding levels of skills in one area without ever needing to be aware there is any other sphere to investigate.

I believe at a very practical level the two are foundationally linked, Kio has been kind enough to create my own thread to accommodate the necessary length of explanation for explaining that foundation so I will not repeat what I have written there, but I will attempt to provide at least a broad outline for my justification here, and I do not at all mean for it be condescending to anyone who does not possess talent in either or both areas.


“As above, so below, as within, so without, as the universe, so the soul…”
― Hermes Trismegistus


“My discourse leads to the truth; the mind is great and guided by this teaching is able to arrive at some understanding. When the mind has understood all things and found them to be in harmony with what has been expounded by the teachings, it is faithful and comes to rest in that beautiful faith.”
― Hermes Trismegistus

and my personal favorite:


“If then you do not make yourself equal to God, you cannot apprehend God; for like is known by like.

Leap clear of all that is corporeal, and make yourself grown to a like expanse with that greatness which is beyond all measure; rise above all time and become eternal; then you will apprehend God. Think that for you too nothing is impossible; deem that you too are immortal, and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought, to know every craft and science; find your home in the haunts of every living creature; make yourself higher than all heights and lower than all depths; bring together in yourself all opposites of quality, heat and cold, dryness and fluidity; think that you are everywhere at once, on land, at sea, in heaven; think that you are not yet begotten, that you are in the womb, that you are young, that you are old, that you have died, that you are in the world beyond the grave; grasp in your thought all of this at once, all times and places, all substances and qualities and magnitudes together; then you can apprehend God.

But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”
― Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetica: The Greek Corpus Hermeticum and the Latin Asclepius

Hermes very, very, very clearly states that one who is Wise is Wise in all things. INCLUDING the use of their body. I will demonstrate the very clear and tangible connection between the Arts with the following Images, and then I will say no more on this for some time that it may be properly digested

https://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/National_Memorial_Arboretum_NHR8716.jpg

http://www.the-big-picture.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ideal-figure-of-Hermes-Trismegistus-copy-of-illustration-from-De-Divinatione-et-Magicis-Praestigiis-by-Jean-Jacques-Boissard-1605-published-late-19th-Centuryengraving.-Engli.jpg

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/hermes2.jpg

https://treeofvisions.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/blog-djehuty-caduceus.jpg

http://www.energyenhancement.org/chakras/chakras-caduceus.jpg

http://www.awaken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Kundalini-Yoga.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Eukaryote_DNA-en.svg/320px-Eukaryote_DNA-en.svg.png

Remember the blue eyed travelling monk Bodhidharma first taught the monks of the Shaolin Temple Kung-Fu because their bodies were too weak to withstand the meditations and contemplation necessary for their practice.

edit. a final thought for the more Pythagorean minded: when someone is starting on the journey to becoming healthy, we refer to them as getting "in shape"

zoas23
05-08-2017, 10:55 PM
I do indeed, though as you point out a person is very capable of developing astounding levels of skills in one area without ever needing to be aware there is any other sphere to investigate.

Yes, I brought the issue because of its oddity... I saw how a person can ACTUALLY develop "athletic" skills which nobody would even believe that they are possible (I used to joke about it with this person and tell her that she should join the X-Men). So I don't distrust your claims for I have seen something that is mostly identical (If I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I would probably believe that you are exaggerating, but I get that you are not). My other surprise was the very explicit alchemical theory behind these practices (and I mean Western Alchemical Symbolism that was VERY explicit) and the fact that the ones who did them had no idea about it.


I believe at a very practical level the two are foundationally linked, Kio has been kind enough to create my own thread to accommodate the necessary length of explanation for explaining that foundation so I will not repeat what I have written there, but I will attempt to provide at least a broad outline for my justification here, and I do not at all mean for it be condescending to anyone who does not possess talent in either or both areas.

It's interesting to read it. My physical "athletic" skills are close to non-existent (the ONLY area in which I am good is in breathing exercises, but it's a bit different than having athletic skills). It is an interesting subject and I am mostly curious about it. I have practiced Yoga in a "cult" for 3 months, then I practiced Yoga for a year in a more traditional way (nothing too strange, just an average school of Yoga), I have a short adventure in Tai-Chi (which I found out that it wasn't "my thing", I felt like Jerry Lewis there in a typical sketch in which he's making a mess)... and I practiced a non-orthodox style of Bioenergetics exercises for some 3 years (Lowen style, but WITHOUT the "psychological" part... and with a focus on the body... which was somehow like "Tai-Chi for people who are too clumsy for Tai-Chi" -in the style that I practiced, which was not too orthodox).

Other than that, I do enjoy meditation a lot.

So I am asking questions with interest because I have never been able to understand the connection between "mysticism" (as to give it a name) and the "athletic skills" and yet there are LOTS of schools that clearly link these two issues (Yoga, Tai-Chi, most of the Martial Arts, etc). Each time I found myself involved in a practice like these ones, I found myself VERY confused and unable to understand what the hell I was doing (but my experience is QUITE limited).

It is probably one of the HUGE differences between "typical" mystical Western schools and "typical" mystical Eastern schools.


Remember the blue eyed travelling monk Bodhidharma first taught the monks of the Shaolin Temple Kung-Fu because their bodies were too weak to withstand the meditations and contemplation necessary for their practice.

edit. a final thought for the more Pythagorean minded: when someone is starting on the journey to becoming healthy, we refer to them as getting "in shape"

Interesting ideas. I must admit that I do not get them at all, but I do not discard them. For me a TYPICAL meditation involves somehow "leaving the body behind" (which doesn't require much physical skills to be honest)... but I have always been very interested in understanding those who think in a different way, because it's something that I am obviously not getting and I am quite unable to understand it. So I'll try to follow this thread without interrupting, but asking some questions if I get lost. It is somehow an "unexplored area" for me.

Being myself more "pythagorean minded" (and quite neo-platonic), the quote you brought for the Asclepius reminded me a LOT of my own personal favorite:

"26. Of that nature which is beyond intellect, many things are asserted through intellection, but it is surveyed by a cessation of intellectual energy better than with it; just as with respect to one who is asleep, many things are asserted of him while he is in that state by those who are awake; but the proper knowledge and apprehension of his dormant condition, is only to be obtained through sleep. For the similar is known by the similar; because all knowledge is an assimilation to the object of knowledge." (Porphyry): http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/porphyry_sententiae_02_trans.htm

... BUT I never related such thing to any kind of "athletic" practice (I am using the word "athletic" as to make a difference between something like being supporting the whole weight of the body in one finger and a meditation that only involves, physically, to be seated or even lying on the floor... so it is just an expression that I am using as to be clear for the lack of a better term).

Which specific school of thought inspired you the most in the connection between mysticism and athleticism? (the question is poorly asked, but I can't think of better terms as to be clear). I am curious because this one is for sure my most undeveloped area and I may enjoy to change such thing or give it a try one more time.

Kiorionis
05-09-2017, 12:49 AM
Remember the blue eyed travelling monk Bodhidharma first taught the monks of the Shaolin Temple Kung-Fu because their bodies were too weak to withstand the meditations and contemplation necessary for their practice.


So I am asking questions with interest because I have never been able to understand the connection between "mysticism" (as to give it a name) and the "athletic skills" and yet there are LOTS of schools that clearly link these two issues

[. . .]

Interesting ideas. I must admit that I do not get them at all, but I do not discard them. For me a TYPICAL meditation involves somehow "leaving the body behind" (which doesn't require much physical skills to be honest).

I'll offer my explanation for this, or at least the one I've found most reasonable, and most practical.

The Surangama Sutra outlines five basic philosophies behind meditation to achieve arhatship (to become a perfected person), and one of these is 'Meditation on the Perception of Objects of Touch':


Upali then rose from his seat, prostrated himself with his head at the feet of the Buddha and declared: "I personally accompanied the Buddha, and we climbed the city wall to flee from home. With my own eyes, I saw how He endured hardship in His practice during the first years of ascetic life, subdued all demons, overcame heretics and freed Himself from worldly desires and all impure efflux (asrava) from the mind. He personally taught me discipline, including the three thousand regulations and eighty thousand lines of conduct which purified all my innate and conventional subtle karmas. As my body and mind were in the nirvanic state, I attained arhatship and the Tathagata sealed my mind because of my strict observance of discipline and control of body. I am now a pillar of discipline in this assembly and am regarded as the foremost disciple. As the Buddha now asks about the best means of perfection, in my opinion, the best consists in disciplining the body so that it can free itself from all restraints and then in disciplining the mind so that it can be all-pervading, which results in the freedom of both body and mind."

There are also passages in this Sutra corresponding to the other analogies of 'Touch'. The sense of touch, the organ of touch, meditation on the body as well as meditation on the element earth.

I find athletics to be very important in my own mystical practices, much like the quote by Visceral states, depending on the type of practice it is possible to conduct high frequency energy through the body. In the West it is more commonly known as Invocation. If the nervous system isn't strong enough, the body will burn out from over heating of the nervous system. I've experienced this personally before I knew what I was doing. For two weeks I couldn't do anything besides lay in bed, feeling quite brain dead with migraines and body ache.

The best way to train the nervous system is to push the physical body as far as it goes, and then push it further. To illustrate this point, one of my favorite quotes (paraphrased here) from an old Japanese martial artist:

"The only way to surpass our physical limitations is with strength and fortitude of Mind. Strength and fortitude of Mind do not begin to develop until the body begins to fail."

Visceral
05-09-2017, 03:00 AM
Yes, I brought the issue because of its oddity... I saw how a person can ACTUALLY develop "athletic" skills which nobody would even believe that they are possible (I used to joke about it with this person and tell her that she should join the X-Men). So I don't distrust your claims for I have seen something that is mostly identical (If I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I would probably believe that you are exaggerating, but I get that you are not). My other surprise was the very explicit alchemical theory behind these practices (and I mean Western Alchemical Symbolism that was VERY explicit) and the fact that the ones who did them had no idea about it.

I believe all practices upon proper inspection would chime as amazingly "alchemical" to anyone who has been sufficiently Initiated into the Mysteries, as language itself is alchemical. All of them. Some are closer to the root language that was used by the ancients to work wonders and some of those sounds survive to this day. Schum has provided more information already on those fragments than I can but to get back to the point, ALL symbols and secrets of any sort relate back to THE original secret society. I am not educated enough in the specifics of "western" alchemy that so many seem to have mastered here and so I cannot be sure I relate the exact meaning of the symbol you mention, but I do believe my grasp of Philosophy allows me to grasp enough of the essence to understand your surprise at encountering the symbol seemingly out of place.

I recognize the symbol from this figure, but do not know the origins or commonly understod meaning given by alchemical Adepts. I understand it as portraying the "as above, so below" concept and also the circling the square riddle beloved by Far Eastern mystics, but perhaps you could espound upon this?

http://symboldictionary.net/library/graphics/symbols/glossaryfugiens.jpg


It's interesting to read it. My physical "athletic" skills are close to non-existent (the ONLY area in which I am good is in breathing exercises, but it's a bit different than having athletic skills). It is an interesting subject and I am mostly curious about it. I have practiced Yoga in a "cult" for 3 months, then I practiced Yoga for a year in a more traditional way (nothing too strange, just an average school of Yoga), I have a short adventure in Tai-Chi (which I found out that it wasn't "my thing", I felt like Jerry Lewis there in a typical sketch in which he's making a mess)... and I practiced a non-orthodox style of Bioenergetics exercises for some 3 years (Lowen style, but WITHOUT the "psychological" part... and with a focus on the body... which was somehow like "Tai-Chi for people who are too clumsy for Tai-Chi" -in the style that I practiced, which was not too orthodox).

Other than that, I do enjoy meditation a lot.

There's yoga, and there's Yoga. The difference, as in most things, is understanding the objective. WHY are you doing yoga. WHAT is yoga. WHERE will yoga supposedly get you. Yoga means literally "to yoke". To yoke what? Your spiritual growth to your physical actions. There are many styles of aggressive stretching that haven't the slightest true spirit or slightest grasp of the original goal. This is because (as you have witnessed yourself) any one part of the Truth is so Powerful, so Mind blowing, so Real, that to even have a slightest part of it is to hold immeasurable power over those sleeping, unprotected minds we might call Plebs and even those absurd reductionists we could call Philistines. This is because both of those things have their Root and Source in a common place, that is the Truth.

Finding a good yoga teacher takes some doing, immediately turn away from anything resembling a cult of personality or requiring high fees(unless they are part of a large gym or run a "hot yoga" style class or have some other obvious need for the funds beyond stuffing the personal vault of the teacher). As always, you will easily identify a real teacher by their insistence on communicating the Art itself over a thinly veiled attempt at self glorifying their own understanding of the Art.



So I am asking questions with interest because I have never been able to understand the connection between "mysticism" (as to give it a name) and the "athletic skills" and yet there are LOTS of schools that clearly link these two issues (Yoga, Tai-Chi, most of the Martial Arts, etc). Each time I found myself involved in a practice like these ones, I found myself VERY confused and unable to understand what the hell I was doing (but my experience is QUITE limited).

It is probably one of the HUGE differences between "typical" mystical Western schools and "typical" mystical Eastern schools.

I think part of the issue is it sounds like you were training a style of martial arts that is considered "soft" or mostly theoretical. With a very few exceptions (shotokan, kempo, some schools of judo) Eastern styles are considered "soft" and western styles "hard". Or in alchemical language, Feminine vs Male, Silver vs Gold etc. The trick (just as in alchemy) is to give birth to the Androgynous Child, or as I sometimes say utilize Western technique with an Eastern philosophy. You sound as if your mind is heavily leaned towards one end of the scale and I would say the experiment failed because you were trying to mix "like with like" alone.




Interesting ideas. I must admit that I do not get them at all, but I do not discard them. For me a TYPICAL meditation involves somehow "leaving the body behind" (which doesn't require much physical skills to be honest)... but I have always been very interested in understanding those who think in a different way, because it's something that I am obviously not getting and I am quite unable to understand it. So I'll try to follow this thread without interrupting, but asking some questions if I get lost. It is somehow an "unexplored area" for me.

Let us imagine you were really, really into "leaving the body behind". To the point where you were trying to maximize that exploration fully. The more well conditioned your body or "anchor" the longer and deeper that voyage can become. If we consider the thing that drives the mind to be the nourishment of the Body or its own Animus Mundi, then when we "leave" the body, to the degree we "leave", to that same degree we remove the nourishment. A body strengthened through consistent influx of that same Animus Mundi will be much less vulnerable when left unattended and take much longer to begin to suffer ill effects from this neglect than a body which is only at best regularly receiving the minimum dribble of this Animus Mundi it needs to hold its existence together.

By not maintaining the body, or by neglecting our Anchor, we shorten both the length of time and quality of operation of the Mind.

Most importantly, when the Mind and Body are centered and engaged together in mutual, difficult activity requiring absolute concentration, AT THAT MOMENT there will be an awareness of the Thing which IS the Void which is NEITHER the MIND NOR the BODY. With experience, this can be made manifest in every day experience. Your female companion was familiar with the practice while being ignorant of nearly every application available therewith aside from what I would call the obvious physical "tricks".

I don't find your questions an interruption at all. Such discussion is the whole point of these threads!


Being myself more "pythagorean minded" (and quite neo-platonic), the quote you brought for the Asclepius reminded me a LOT of my own personal favorite:

"26. Of that nature which is beyond intellect, many things are asserted through intellection, but it is surveyed by a cessation of intellectual energy better than with it; just as with respect to one who is asleep, many things are asserted of him while he is in that state by those who are awake; but the proper knowledge and apprehension of his dormant condition, is only to be obtained through sleep. For the similar is known by the similar; because all knowledge is an assimilation to the object of knowledge." (Porphyry): http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/porphyry_sententiae_02_trans.htm

... BUT I never related such thing to any kind of "athletic" practice (I am using the word "athletic" as to make a difference between something like being supporting the whole weight of the body in one finger and a meditation that only involves, physically, to be seated or even lying on the floor... so it is just an expression that I am using as to be clear for the lack of a better term).

I usually use the term Siddhis


Siddhis (Sanskrit and Pali; Devanagari सिद्धि;Tamil: சித்தி; Tibetan: དངོས་གྲུབ, THL: ngödrup,[web 1]) are spiritual, paranormal, supernatural, or otherwise magical powers, abilities, and attainments that are the products of spiritual advancement through sādhanās such as meditation and yoga.[1] The term ṛddhi (Pali: iddhi, "psychic powers") is often used interchangeably in Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

However, there is not one true teacher that will not tell you that if you develop Siddhis ignore them. Move on to something else. Because they are foothills to the mountains, and many are those who wander forever in them without ever glimpsing the abodes of the gods and Wise.

It sounds as if your female friend had gone much further along that particular path than I have, but I do not focus on them in particular for the aforementioned caution of the Wise. I'm not surprised as all cults are formed from essentially obsessing over a small fragment of the Truth to the complete Ignorance of the Entire Work. I do however have video and picture evidence of myself doing the Siddhis I mentioned I have before, mostly because it's easier to post a picture than argue with people. Perhaps eventually I would be willing to share this with a mod or someone else for verification purposes, but I have no interest in posting anything for a "wow" effect. (beyond getting the likes of my usual handful of friends and family who don't really know or understand a thing about what I spend my time doing or why I can do what I can)



Which specific school of thought inspired you the most in the connection between mysticism and athleticism? (the question is poorly asked, but I can't think of better terms as to be clear). I am curious because this one is for sure my most undeveloped area and I may enjoy to change such thing or give it a try one more time.

My life has been a series of the most absurdly beneficial accidents (even accounting for all the personal karmic garbage that comes with any Incarnation)

I trained under a very open minded, very competent instructor who was a perfect Buddhist who never mentioned Buddhism (I never realized it until I began my journey into Buddhism years later), who trained under Dan Inosanto, who was the principle student of Bruce Lee, who was trained originally in Wung Chun by the real life Ip Man. At the age of 18 I attended a seminar by a legend in martial arts known as Erik Paulson. He trained in the East for years and competed in I don't know how many no rules matches there. He has several fights on youtube but was past his prime when the UFC and other promotions made martial arts other than boxing popular. Erik was the first person I ever heard use the word "merkaba". As part of the seminar he showed us all a specific way to crack our partners back for the warm up. As it happened there was an odd number of people and I was left without a partner. Erik noticed and without even really saying anything had me put my hands behind my head, placed his arms under mine and laced his hands over mine in a "full nelson" type position, and then what happened after I can only describe as he picked me up by my head.

Every vertebrae in my spine cracked and separated and aligned all at once. I felt an electric shock the length of my nervous system that felt like it popped right out of my head. I spent about a minute standing totally still just vibrating. After 2 hours of amazing drills and blowing our minds with details of the basics he walked us through the (I think it's 22 breath? can't remember atm) Merkaba breath count and I had a very different experience than most people there with it, I think.

I thank God for that Saturday afternoon nearly everyday.

If I could give you any one piece of advice to take home about martial arts, it would be to watch "Choke"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjvzJO-6ESc

Rickson Gracie is the the son of the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and unanimously known as the best of the legendary Gracie family. He happens to be a devout practitioner of a form of yoga that produces similar results to Kundalini or Zen practice, in that he consciously summons a "zero point" as he calls it. Or a flow state, or a moving delta wave state. All practitioners of any legitimate martial art are familiar with this "zone" to some degree, and it can be found among any devoted practitioner of any path. As a child I found it playing video games. The best description ever is Musashi Miyamotos Book of Five Rings, which I cannot recommend enough.

Watching Rickson is watching a Master who has no formal training in the Art we know, but a perfect understanding of its internal applications.

My advice if you're interested would be to go to a local Jiu Jitsu gym (gi or no gi doesn't matter if you're not going pro) and commit to a solid year of it. Research your gym first, bullshido.com can help you there and mostly know what to look for. Medals on the wall and pictures with people in the community. The martial arts community is very, very small and if a school is ostracized from the legitimate schools there is a reason for it. Most schools offer a free class or week of classes to try out. Immediate contracts are a bad sign.

What does legitimate mean for a martial arts school? In a word: competition. Active competition. Thats why you look for medals and pictures of the instructor on podiums. Not all great teachers competed extensively, but if they didn't they trained under someone who did and that lineage extends all the way back (whether they know it or not) to Bodhidharma and that Shaolin Temple. What may interest you is later on when I show this "Bodhidharma" is our same Hermes (or a very close disciple) and these arts originate actually in much more familiar territory, most probably near the Mediterranean or turkey.

You won't need to "roll" as they say in the first week, or even month. Nobody will make you do anything beyond regular light drills with the class (which you can observe your first time if you want). But eventually you will want to, and you will learn it doesn't hurt (unless there's an accident, very rare in grappling arts) and you didn't die and it was actually a lot of fun.

edit. I fear I have rambled at length and may have missed the intention of your question. Apologies if so, this is not only what I consider a crucial part of the path but also a personal hobby and lifetime obsession. Left to my own devices I could and would ramble endlessly about lineage and famous matches and Artists and where which technique developed and who used it when to beat who.

Visceral
05-09-2017, 03:01 AM
Yes Kios! You comprehend my position completely, and even provide a passage I have never read from a subject I take pride in my knowledge of!

What joy to take company in such minds!

Visceral
05-09-2017, 03:17 AM
As far as any other training or association goes, I have only the formal training in martial arts I mentioned and my instructor very avidly avoided anything that wasn't practically applicable. It was very Zen like, perhaps I could say I trained at a back alley zen studio until an Adept who trained in the East aligned me internally, activated my Merkaba and eventually lead me to a direct confrontation with Hu.

All that I have done has been done otherwise informally, under my own Intuition and by my own Reason, guided by what I would refer to as an open relationship with Spirit.

But no schools or teachers can I claim. I enjoy Dogen Zenji and Alan Watts very much though. :)

zoas23
05-09-2017, 07:03 AM
I'll offer my explanation for this, or at least the one I've found most reasonable, and most practical. The Surangama Sutra outlines five basic philosophies behind meditation to achieve arhatship (to become a perfected person), and one of these is 'Meditation on the Perception of Objects of Touch': (...)

There are also passages in this Sutra corresponding to the other analogies of 'Touch'. The sense of touch, the organ of touch, meditation on the body as well as meditation on the element earth.

I find athletics to be very important in my own mystical practices, much like the quote by Visceral states, depending on the type of practice it is possible to conduct high frequency energy through the body. In the West it is more commonly known as Invocation. If the nervous system isn't strong enough, the body will burn out from over heating of the nervous system. I've experienced this personally before I knew what I was doing. For two weeks I couldn't do anything besides lay in bed, feeling quite brain dead with migraines and body ache.

The best way to train the nervous system is to push the physical body as far as it goes, and then push it further. To illustrate this point, one of my favorite quotes (paraphrased here) from an old Japanese martial artist:

"The only way to surpass our physical limitations is with strength and fortitude of Mind. Strength and fortitude of Mind do not begin to develop until the body begins to fail."

Now I get what you mean.... somehow.
I know 2 different meditation techniques that lead to a heating of the nervous system... or to put it in simple words, it feels as if the spine becomes incredibly cold or incredibly hot (the sense of touch is tricky, sometimes it's hard to differentiate between touching something too hot or too cold). The first times it felt like being cut in the back with a red hot knife.

One of them involves breathing techniques, the other one involves something similar to Mantras and it works better if it's done collectively, but not exactly because of the collective strength, but because it's possible to add several "layers" of Mantras (I assume that with a recording it would be the same). The one involving breathing techniques is stronger... and I have seen persons having to "give up". None of the methods I know is, however, specially "athletic".


I believe all practices upon proper inspection would chime as amazingly "alchemical" to anyone who has been sufficiently Initiated into the Mysteries, as language itself is alchemical. All of them. Some are closer to the root language that was used by the ancients to work wonders and some of those sounds survive to this day. Schum has provided more information already on those fragments than I can but to get back to the point, ALL symbols and secrets of any sort relate back to THE original secret society. I am not educated enough in the specifics of "western" alchemy that so many seem to have mastered here and so I cannot be sure I relate the exact meaning of the symbol you mention, but I do believe my grasp of Philosophy allows me to grasp enough of the essence to understand your surprise at encountering the symbol seemingly out of place.

This symbol is just an example, the whole thing in the Cultists Yoga School was filled with Western Alchemical symbolism that was very explicit, but the students and the teachers had no idea of such thing. Then again, it is the weirdest school I have ever seen... and somehow it was a scam (i.e, the general concept was that you entered to study Yoga, but as soon as you became a student, you became encouraged to study to be a Trainer, and the "trainers" had to recruit their own students, besides from paying monthly for being a trainer and getting 50% of the monthly payment of their own students... and the general concept was that you had to leave your job as to train all the time and become an official trainer... and there was some pressure to abandon invite your friends to study there too and consider unworthy of your friendship or "unevolved" the ones who didn't like the idea... in short, a cult -I stayed there for 3 months only because I was dating the main responsible of such nightmare, though I had no idea of the kind of madness she was into when we meet for the first time). The school itself was incredibly weird, it was 100% non racist, but it had (and has) a strange policy: only "good looking" / "attractive" people were accepted, persons who were/are "ugly" for the conventional standards were systematically rejected. I can only describe such place as an insane asylum.


I recognize the symbol from this figure, but do not know the origins or commonly understod meaning given by alchemical Adepts. I understand it as portraying the "as above, so below" concept and also the circling the square riddle beloved by Far Eastern mystics, but perhaps you could espound upon this?

It is simply the starting matter in the center, its rotation through the 4 elements, it's interaction as the 3 principles and its final solidification as something bigger than it was when it began. It is taken from Maier's "Atalanta Fugiens".


There's yoga, and there's Yoga. The difference, as in most things, is understanding the objective. WHY are you doing yoga. WHAT is yoga. WHERE will yoga supposedly get you. Yoga means literally "to yoke". To yoke what? Your spiritual growth to your physical actions. There are many styles of aggressive stretching that haven't the slightest true spirit or slightest grasp of the original goal. This is because (as you have witnessed yourself) any one part of the Truth is so Powerful, so Mind blowing, so Real, that to even have a slightest part of it is to hold immeasurable over those sleeping, unprotected minds we might call Plebs and even those absurd reductionists we could call Philistines. This is because both of those things have their Root and Source in a common place, that is the Truth.

Yeah, I saw 2 styles of Yoga... one in this "weird cult", the second one was by a teacher who was a more or less traditional Hinduist with a special interest in Shiva, a very pleasant person.

As to answer your question, the first time I studied Yoga was simply because of a relationship that finished because I don't like cults. The second time I studied Yoga was EXACTLY for the reason that you ask: I went to a non-cultist school and I stayed there for some 3 years. My reason was to find out WHY I was studying yoga, but I never found the answer. I never understood the sense of it. That's why I am asking you questions, probably trying to find out a different point of view, and your answers are interesting.
For some reason I don't understand the link between mysticism and complex athletic disciplines (I get the link when it's a meditation, but the ones I know need no athletic skills at all, nor they provide athletic skills).

But... in short: I decided to study Yoga to find out WHY I was studying Yoga... in 3 years I didn't "get" it and I decided to abandon it. It didn't make any sense to me... Though it's an issue that always makes me scratch my head. Pardon me for asking so many questions, it's simply a "link" that I don't get (the link between athleticism and mysticism), but I find it interesting. Well, I enjoy to talk with persons who are nice and have very different perspectives... I learn a lot.


II think part of the issue is it sounds like you were training a style of martial arts that is considered "soft" or mostly theoretical. With a very few exceptions (shotokan, kempo, some schools of judo) Eastern styles are considered "soft" and western styles "hard". Or in alchemical language, Feminine vs Male, Silver vs Gold etc. The trick (just as in alchemy) is to give birth to the Androgynous Child, or as I sometimes say utilize Western technique with an Eastern philosophy. You sound as if your mind is heavily leaned towards one end of the scale and I would say the experiment failed because you were trying to mix "like with like" alone.

I don't think so, but you don't know me quite well. I enjoy a lot to participate in several Hermetic Orders with incredibly different styles. Some of them are very "hard" (I don't mean in the sense of difficulty, but "hard" as in "very rigid")... whilst some others are the opposite, very "soft" and "gentle". I like both styles.

I think my problem was or is that I never understood the relationship with all this "athleticism" and anything related to "mysticism"... That's why I ask a lot of questions, probably trying to understand it, because I get that there is "something" that I am missing.


Let us imagine you were really, really into "leaving the body behind". To the point where you were trying to maximize that exploration fully. The more well conditioned your body or "anchor" the longer and deeper that voyage can become. If we consider the thing that drives the mind to be the nourishment of the Body or its own Animus Mundi, then when we "leave" the body, to the degree with "leave", to that same degree we remove the nourishment. A body strengthened through consistent influx of that same Animus Mundi will be much less vulnerable when left unattended and take much longer to begin to suffer ill effects from this neglect than a body is only at best regularly receiving the minimum dribble of this Animus Mundi it needs to hold its existence together.

I can agree there, this is where we agree. On the other hand, my experience has been that the body is nourished with the spirit by very different means (completely unrelated to any kind of athleticism). Though I am not trying to suppress your idea with my idea, but trying to understand through you something that I couldn't understand when I did it myself.

During the last months I have been visiting again and again the same Museum to see a temporary exhibition with the works of one of my favorite artists, Yves Klein. He was very open about the link between his works and Alchemy and Rosicrucianism (his big inspiration to create art was Alchemy and he was explicit about it). Something interesting about him is that he devoted more time to Judo than he devoted to Art. He even spent some years in Japan as to improve his Judo... and whilst he was in the peak of his fame as an artist, he wrote a book about judo techniques (without mentioning any kind of relation with art, it was strictly for students of Judo). Another weird fact is that he created an artistic movement with other artists, but they had something in common: they all knew each other because they studied Judo together since they were teens.

One of the main concepts he investigated was the concept of the Void and how to manifest its offspring through art. As an artist he was very delicate, so I find it strange that he loved Judo so much (I am quite ignorant of the martial Arts, but I think Judo is one of the less "delicate" ones).


IBy not maintaining the body, or by neglecting our Anchor, we shorten both the length of time and quality of operation of the Mind.

That's true, though I use a different logic and a different concept of "nourishing the body"... But I get your idea and I think it's worthy.


IMost importantly, when the Mind and Body are centered and engaged together in mutual, difficult activity requiring absolute concentration, AT THAT MOMENT there will be an awareness of the Thing which the Void which NEITHER the MIND NOR the BODY. With experience, this can be made manifest in every day experience. Your female companion was familiar with the practice while being ignorant of nearly every application available therewith aside from what I would call the obvious physical "tricks".

The grammar of the first part is confusing, but I think you meant the experience of the Void... which is fascinating.
Yes, I saw her doing many athletic "tricks" that made me think that she was almost an X-Men.... supporting her weight in one finger was one of them. A perfect control of each muscle was another (what she could do was, in the parts of the body where there are muscles -i.e, she couldn't do it on her elbows or other parts without muscles- is creating a "ball" instantly. I could point at any part of her body and she could create a "ball" without moving the other muscles... a perfect dissociation of the muscles and a perfect control of each one of them.
The strange thing is that this person, actually the whole "school", was Atheist in a militant way... and the whole philosophy was quite strange because it contained a lot of "mysticism", but the whole of it was directed to the founder (who was worshipped daily as if he was a God, though he didn't claim to be a God). Well, it was quite a lunacy, but it wasn't any kind of "traditional" Yoga, but mostly a lunacy with an excellent "athletic" side (and a horrible philosophy).


It sounds as if your female friend had gone much further along that particular path than I have, but I do not focus on them in particular for the aforementioned caution of the Wise. I'm not surprised as all cults are formed from essentially obsessing over a small fragment of the Truth to the complete Ignorance of the Entire Work. I do however have video and picture evidence of myself doing the Siddhis I mentioned I have before, mostly because it's easier to post a picture than argue with people.

Well, there is no need to convince me with a video... I have seen something that is mostly identical to what you describe, so I am assuming that you know how to do it too. Though I get what you mean, if I hadn't seen it before, I would probably assume that you are mentally insane... because it is completely mind blowing to see such things and the "common sense" leads to BELIEVE that it's not possible. I don't need to be "convinced" with a video because I have seen another person doing the same.

Here's a video with an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex0USj_idyA

... Though what I saw was by far more impressive mostly due to seemingly the lack of effort, the long time she could keep herself on just one finger, and the easy way in which she could switch from vertical position to horizontal position and then to "sitting" position (without touching the floor except for the finger) and even keep a conversation about absolutely random things.


Perhaps eventually I would be willing to share this with a mod or someone else for verification purposes, but I have no interest in posting anything for a "wow" effect. (beyond getting the likes of my usual handful of friends and family who don't really know or understand a thing about what I spend my time doing or why I can do what I can)

LOL... I guess that something similar happens to almost 90% of the "population" of this forum with different issues.


My life has been a series of the most absurdly beneficial accidents (even accounting for all the personal karmic garbage that comes with any Incarnation)

That's nice to hear, I've had the same experience thus far... though in other "paths".


If I could give you any one piece of advice to take home about martial arts, it would be to watch "Choke"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjvzJO-6ESc

Rickson Gracie is the the son of the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and unanimously known as the best of the legendary Gracie family. He happens to be a devout practitioner of a form of yoga that produces similar results to Kundalini or Zen practice, in that he consciously summons a "zero point" as he calls it. Or a flow state, or a moving delta wave state. All practitioners of any legitimate martial art are familiar with this "zone" to some degree, and it can be found among any devoted practitioner of any path. As a child I found it playing video games. The best description ever is Musashi Miyamotos Book of Five Rings, which I cannot recommend enough.

Thank you, I will watch it.
I have mentioned my absurd good luck in life (even my friends have created an expression for it), but the physical "athletic" disciplines have not been part of that "good luck", in that area I only had bizarre and mediocre experiences. I am interested in giving it another try and what you are suggesting can be useful.
Other than that, my current girlfriend (with whom I plan to stay for the whole of my life) is into Martial Arts, Kung-Fu and Tae-Kwon-Do (black belt in both of them and the former national champion in one of them -I have forgotten if it was in Tae-Kwon-Do or Kung-Fu), and she is very good (though she is having a hiatus with such things right now)... HOWEVER she is a bit disappointed with the fact that there is a "spiritual side" in those Martial Arts, but the 2 schools in which she learnt them didn't teach a single thing about that "spiritual side" and were simply focused on combating techniques. So she doesn't know the "spiritual part" of those Martial Arts.


My advice if you're interested would be to go to a local Jiu Jitsu gym (gi or no gi doesn't matter if you're not going pro) and commit to a solid year of it. Research your gym first, bullshido.com can help you there and mostly know what to look for. Medals on the wall and pictures with people in the community. The martial arts community is very, very small and if a school is ostracized from the legitimate schools there is a reason for it. Most schools offer a free class or week of classes to try out. Immediate contracts are a bad sign.

Thanks for the advice... Jiu Jitsu. I will definitely give it a try, it's an area that I don't understand and I would like to understand.


What does legitimate mean for a martial arts school? In a word: competition. Active competition. Thats why you look for medals and pictures of the instructor on podiums. Not all great teachers competed extensively, but if they didn't they trained under someone who did and that lineage extends all the way back (whether they know it or not) to Bodhidharma and that Shaolin Temple. What may interest you is later on when I show this "Bodhidharma" is our same Hermes (or a very close disciple) and these arts originate actually in much more familiar territory, most probably near the Mediterranean or turkey.

Well... it can be a good sign or a bad sign, it's relative. My girlfriend is the former national champion of Kung-Fu (if I am not wrong, if I am wrong, then it's Tae-Kwon-Do)... but she was never taught the "spiritual part" at all. Again, just like the other person I mentioned, probably ONE of the reasons for her good skills in Kung-Fu and Tae-Kwon-Do is that she trained a lot (several hours per day).


You won't need to "roll" as they say in the first week, or even month. Nobody will make you do anything beyond regular light drills with the class (which you can observe your first time if you want). But eventually you will want to, and you will learn it doesn't hurt (unless there's an accident, very rare in grappling arts) and you didn't die and it was actually a lot of fun.

edit. I fear I have rambled at length and may have missed the intention of your question. Apologies if so, this is not only what I consider a crucial part of the path but also a personal hobby and lifetime obsession. Left to my own devices I could and would ramble endlessly about lineage and famous matches and Artists and where which technique developed and who used it when to beat who.

No, no need to apologize at all... I feel the need to apologize for rambling a lot... and you answered my questions very well.
I wanted to listen to your point of view and I am glad that you explained it so extensively. As I've said, I live with a black belt in 2 Martial Arts, but she was never taught the "spiritual part" of them (as to give such thing a name... I don't know much about them, so I use the expressions that may be a bit awkward for someone who knows them).
I am glad that you suggested something and I would certainly give it a try. My experiences with physical disciplines (Yoga, Martial arts) have been quite mediocre, but I would like to explore that area... especially in a school that doesn't disregard or ignore the "spiritual side" of them. So your post has been very helpful. Thanks a lot.

I will let you talk with Kio now as to avoid interfering, because it's an area of ignorance for me and I assume that it's more fun to talk with someone who knows. What I had was questions, but you answered them very well.

Visceral
05-10-2017, 08:40 AM
It is simply the starting matter in the center, its rotation through the 4 elements, it's interaction as the 3 principles and its final solidification as something bigger than it was when it began. It is taken from Maier's "Atalanta Fugiens".

Alas for this curse of Babel, for what appears so clear to me remains a mystery to you, and what you consider cursory knowledge is yet out of my reach. I believe I have found at least half of the starting matter...but as far as its applications or necessary treatments I am utterly befuddled.



Yeah, I saw 2 styles of Yoga... one in this "weird cult", the second one was by a teacher who was a more or less traditional Hinduist with a special interest in Shiva, a very pleasant person.

As to answer your question, the first time I studied Yoga was simply because of a relationship that finished because I don't like cults. The second time I studied Yoga was EXACTLY for the reason that you ask: I went to a non-cultist school and I stayed there for some 3 years. My reason was to find out WHY I was studying yoga, but I never found the answer. I never understood the sense of it. That's why I am asking you questions, probably trying to find out a different point of view, and your answers are interesting.
For some reason I don't understand the link between mysticism and complex athletic disciplines (I get the link when it's a meditation, but the ones I know need no athletic skills at all, nor they provide athletic skills).

I always find that when one wants the truth of the WHY of a thing, it is best to investigate that things source. The Root will explain the Branch and Flower. Without an adept guide, or someone who wants to specifically answer your question, it can be very difficult understand the WHY of a thing, I would say impossible without a proper investigation of the Source.

One of the best ways, I understand Fulcanelli recommended a similar sort of approach although I don't fully comprehend the totality of his method, is to trace the etymology of the word you're questioning. This will often reveal more about the thing itself, especially the WHYS and WHERE's and WHEN's, than the people who most commonly use the phrase or language are even aware of. Indeed, their particular cultural bias will usually blind them to any investigation of such roots. Most cultures assume their pieces of cultural identity are uniquely theirs, and have always existed as such, and never question the origins and would almost certainly take it as sacrilege should you ever suggest any origin aside from their (uninvestigated) presumption. I'm sure you witnessed this in the cult you mention if you ever brought up what you're telling us here.

Anywho:


In Sanskrit, the word yoga comes from the root yuj which means "to add", "to join", "to unite", or "to attach" in its most common senses. By figurative extension from the yoking or harnessing of oxen or horses, the word took on broader meanings such as "employment, use, application, performance" (compare the figurative uses of "to harness" as in "to put something to some use"). All further developments of the sense of this word are post-Vedic. More prosaic moods such as "exertion", "endeavour", "zeal", and "diligence" are also found in Indian epic poetry.[22]
There are very many compound words containing yoga in Sanskrit. Yoga can take on meanings such as "connection", "contact", "union", "method", "application", "addition" and "performance". In simpler words, Yoga also means "combined". For example, guṇáyoga means "contact with a cord"; chakráyoga has a medical sense of "applying a splint or similar instrument by means of pulleys (in case of dislocation of the thigh)"; chandráyoga has the astronomical sense of "conjunction of the moon with a constellation"; puṃyoga is a grammatical term expressing "connection or relation with a man", etc. Thus, bhaktiyoga means "devoted attachment" in the monotheistic Bhakti movement. The term kriyāyoga has a grammatical sense, meaning "connection with a verb". But the same compound is also given a technical meaning in the Yoga Sutras (2.1), designating the "practical" aspects of the philosophy, i.e. the "union with the supreme" due to performance of duties in everyday life[23]
According to Pāṇini, a 6th-century BCE Sanskrit grammarian, the term yoga can be derived from either of two roots, yujir yoga (to yoke) or yuj samādhau (to concentrate).[24] In the context of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the root yuj samādhau (to concentrate) is considered by traditional commentators as the correct etymology.[25] In accordance with Pāṇini, Vyasa who wrote the first commentary on the Yoga Sutras,[26] states that yoga means samādhi (concentration).[27]
According to Dasgupta, the term yoga can be derived from either of two roots, yujir yoga (to yoke) or yuj samādhau (to concentrate).[24] Someone who practices yoga or follows the yoga philosophy with a high level of commitment is called a yogi (may be applied to a man or a woman) or yogini (traditionally denoting a woman).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga

However there are nearly an infinite variation of yogas. But, in the same way that there are nearly as many alchemical procedures as there are alchemists, yet there is one true aim to alchemy and one common goal to all alchemists, upon which they conduct their experiments according to the completeness of their understanding of that ONE ORIGINAL, COMMON goal. In the same way, all yogas in straighter or wider or shorter or longer or clearer or more muddled ways seek the SAME THING, and this original thing is the same as the goal of alchemists, albeit in what we could call a different Realm or Kingdom. It is my position that the TRUE STONE of Wisdom requires a mastery of both of these, or any construction will necessarily be considered incomplete.

Specifically, the type of yoga one needs, the one most closely related to the original, complete Art handed down by our beloved Hermes/Thoth, is known today as Kundalini Yoga. This is a specific application of one of the original branches of Vedic yoga known as Hatha yoga, which is what the Western mind is generally in need of.


According to Mallinson, an Oxford scholar known for his studies on Hatha yoga, its techniques can be traced back to the 1st millennium BCE(in) texts such as the Sanskrit epics (Hinduism) and the Pali canon (Buddhism0


Ancient Sanskrit texts do not use the phrase "Hatha yoga", but their verses describe physical exercises and postures (asanas) that appear in later Hatha yoga texts, though sometimes in a different poetic meter.[12] For example, the Agama texts of Vaishnavism called Pancaratrika teach non-seated asanas such as mayurasana in section 96 of Vimanarcanakalpa patala (9th-century[13])


In the earliest texts, Hatha Yoga is not opposed to Patanjali Yoga, nor is it ranked superior or inferior as it was presented in the 19th century.[3]:770-771 Rather it is supplementary, with a different aim. Hatha Yoga in these texts aim to conserve physical essence of life, which these texts call as bindu (semen) and far less discussed rajas (menstrual fluid). In contrast, later texts describe kundalini energy through a system of chakras. The texts state that being able to preserve and use this energy through Yoga is a means to achieve various siddhi (special powers).[

I believe the bindu and raja mistranslation to be a corruption of the original teaching, being replaced by a later master with a correction and transposition of the universally applicable "kundalini" energy so as to help would be students avoid the trap and debate of obsessing over bindu vs raja. There is a masculine/feminine division in the kundalini practice, the difference in use is minimal. The Merkaba meditation activates both in the correct way without any need of the person receiving the meditation needing any prior knowledge or training, just what we might call a proper Vessel or Receptacle. Without such a thing this particular practice will simply fail and leave you feeling light and fuzzy and perhaps slightly warm, but not uncomfortably so. Back to hatha yoga:


Hatha yoga practice has many elements, both behavioral and of practice. The Hatha yoga texts state that a successful yogi has certain characteristics. Section 1.16 of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, for example, states these characteristics to be utsaha (enthusiasm, fortitude), sahasa (courage, optimistic attitude), dhairya (patience, persistence), jnana tattva (essence for knowledge), nishcaya (resolve, determination) and tyaga (solitude, renunciation).[41]
In the Western culture, Hatha yoga is typically understood as asanas and it can be practiced as such.[63] In the Indian and Tibetan traditions, Hatha yoga is much more. It extends well beyond being a sophisticated physical exercise system, and integrates ideas of ethics, diet, cleansing, pranayama (breathing exercises), meditation and a system for spiritual development of the yogi

So you can see how a person can meet these criteria and not even be aware that yoga itself exists. This happens all the time. As Dogen puts it, "Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your enlightenment."

He has another point here that was very useful to me that sealed his place as near and dear to my heart, that if you followed my earlier hint you would have eventually found that I will share with you here. Dogen has a great deal to share with everyone interested in anything, but as with all the Masters he had ONE goal in reality and hoped to help lead you to it also. His idea was called zazen, but the exact principle applies to the connection I am trying to make as clear to you as it is to me:


This point was succinctly stressed by Dōgen in the Fukan Zazengi, the first text that he composed upon his return to Japan from China:

To practice the Way singleheartedly is, in itself, enlightenment. There is no gap between practice and enlightenment or zazen and daily life

Zazen has been described as "just sitting" but the same concept applies to whatsoever activity one finds oneself engaged in. Or as Dogen himself says(again in the FZ):


For zazen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. Zazen has nothing whatever to do with sitting or lying down.

back to hatha yoga


In later formulations(Visceral-read:after corrections), they developed the concept of kundalini (sleeping serpent goddess) and a system of chakras within the body, and the exercises were a means to awaken the sleeping kundalini and rejuvenate the body.[101] The idea of vital energy or principle was linked to jiva (prana, life force), and the aim was to move this "vital energy" with mudras, access amṛta – the stated nectar of immortality(Visceral-I believe this refers to the required Internal component, of which I believe Western Alchemy holds the key to creating the External component. Obviously either one would confer tremendous advantages, as I said earlier any one piece or shard of the True Thing is immensely powerful) – situated in the head and flooding it into the body.[99][102] The later formulations(Visceral-read: corrupted versions of even earlier teachings) of Hatha yoga thus differed from the early hatha yoga aims of preserving bindu]

in the future I will enter my own commentary into my passages with the shorthand VN for Viscerals Notes


The aims of Hatha yoga in various Indian traditions have been the same as those of other varieties of yoga. These include physical siddhis (special powers, bodily benefits such as slowing age effects, magical powers) and spiritual liberation (moksha, mukti).[2][9] According to Mikel Burley, some of the siddhis are symbolic references to the cherished soteriological goals of Indian religions. For example, the Vayu Siddhi or "conquest of the air" literally implies rising into the air as in levitation, but it likely has symbolic meaning of "a state of consciousness into a vast ocean of space" or "voidness" ideas found respectively in Hinduism and Buddhism.[106]
Some traditions such as the Kaula tantric sect of Hinduism and Sahajiya tantric sect of Buddhism pursued more esoteric goals such as alchemy (Nagarjuna, Carpita), magic, kalavancana (cheating death) and parakayapravesa (entering another's body).[2][107][108] James Mallinson, however, disagrees and suggests that such fringe practices are far removed from the mainstream Yoga's goal as meditation-driven means to liberation in Indian religions.[109] The majority of historic Hatha yoga texts do not give any importance to siddhis.[110] The mainstream practice considered the pursuit of magical powers as a distraction or hindrance (VN- As I said any decent teacher will tell you not to waste your time on these, they are traps at best used to quickly and easily hold the attention of a potential student) to Hatha yoga's ultimate aim of spiritual liberation, self knowledge or release from rebirth that the Indian traditions call mukti or moksha.[2][9]
The goals of Hatha yoga, in its earliest texts, were linked to mumukshu (seeker of liberation, moksha).(VN- the confused or fragmented self0 The later texts added and experimented with the goals of bubhukshu (seeker of enjoyment, bhoga)(VN- because eventually the seeker finds what it is looking for, it is not in pain or fragmented any longer and yoga is also a true Joy).[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_yoga


But... in short: I decided to study Yoga to find out WHY I was studying Yoga... in 3 years I didn't "get" it and I decided to abandon it. It didn't make any sense to me... Though it's an issue that always makes me scratch my head. Pardon me for asking so many questions, it's simply a "link" that I don't get (the link between athleticism and mysticism), but I find it interesting. Well, I enjoy to talk with persons who are nice and have very different perspectives... I learn a lot.
I don't think so, but you don't know me quite well. I enjoy a lot to participate in several Hermetic Orders with incredibly different styles. Some of them are very "hard" (I don't mean in the sense of difficulty, but "hard" as in "very rigid")... whilst some others are the opposite, very "soft" and "gentle". I like both styles.

I don't need to know you well to read your words. You yourself said you are inexperienced in this area. I will switch to using the terms Yin and Yang. Mental practices and mediations such as you provide descriptions of are all nearly exlusively Yin. You yourself said they involved dropping the Body(physical, Yang) component as soon as possible. Hatha yoga, specifically Kundalini yoga and the Merkaba practice all involve going IN to the Body, or merging as much as of the Yin into as much as of the Yang as one possibly can. What your female friend was doing when you pointed to a spot on her body was channeling Yin energy (Chi) through her Body and converting it into Yang energy (Ki) on the spot and at will. This is all something anyone can learn to do and the reason why she was able to do it with no formal training in the Mysteries as we might know them is because these are Natural energy systems, and if you investigate you will find neither Yin nor Yang is itself the originating essence or force. Your friend did not possess a secret warehouse of Chi stored up somehow and there is no secret supply house of Ki energy available either, although one is interchangeable for the other infinitely. The Root energy is what makes the Kundalini and Merkaba practices work.


I think my problem was or is that I never understood the relationship with all this "athleticism" and anything related to "mysticism"... That's why I ask a lot of questions, probably trying to understand it, because I get that there is "something" that I am missing.

Zoas, you are truly among the Wise and I hope I have aided you in this, or at least allowed your intuition or inner Muse to perhaps speak more clearly to you.




I can agree there, this is where we agree. On the other hand, my experience has been that the body is nourished with the spirit by very different means (completely unrelated to any kind of athleticism). Though I am not trying to suppress your idea with my idea, but trying to understand through you something that I couldn't understand when I did it myself.

During the last months I have been visiting again and again the same Museum to see a temporary exhibition with the works of one of my favorite artists, Yves Klein. He was very open about the link between his works and Alchemy and Rosicrucianism (his big inspiration to create art was Alchemy and he was explicit about it). Something interesting about him is that he devoted more time to Judo than he devoted to Art. He even spent some years in Japan as to improve his Judo... and whilst he was in the peak of his fame as an artist, he wrote a book about judo techniques (without mentioning any kind of relation with art, it was strictly for students of Judo). Another weird fact is that he created an artistic movement with other artists, but they had something in common: they all knew each other because they studied Judo together since they were teens.

One of the main concepts he investigated was the concept of the Void and how to manifest its offspring through art. As an artist he was very delicate, so I find it strange that he loved Judo so much (I am quite ignorant of the martial Arts, but I think Judo is one of the less "delicate" ones).

Less delicate, or more realistic, or involves ACTIVE use of the techniques, all of which makes it closer to Source. There are many many many fantastic minds that are addicted to martial arts precisely because Judo, or Jiu Jitsu, or wrestling or boxing or muay thai will all, without exception, provide the exact same Void state that their creativity flows from, and all creative people are most certainly addicted to being creative.

You would find Jiu Jitsu especially is full of super polite nerds with absurd video game stats who have no problem rolling you into a pretzel and making it fun. xD




That's true, though I use a different logic and a different concept of "nourishing the body"... But I get your idea and I think it's worthy.



The grammar of the first part is confusing, but I think you meant the experience of the Void... which is fascinating.

Yes indeed I am, although Musashi Miyamoto puts it better than I ever can. I cannot recommend his Book of Five Rings enough. I will have to conduct a separate post upon it I suppose but it is only 5 chapters long, probably less than 100 pages and it will contain different wisdom every time you read it. The quotes that come to mind bearing to the topic at hand are when he says that


One who understand the Way broadly will see it in all things
and

It is said the warriors is the twofold Way of Pen and Sword and he should have a taste for both Ways. Even if a man has no natural ability he can be a warrior by sticking assiduously to the Way.




... Though what I saw was by far more impressive mostly due to seemingly the lack of effort, the long time she could keep herself on just one finger, and the easy way in which she could switch from vertical position to horizontal position and then to "sitting" position (without touching the floor except for the finger) and even keep a conversation about absolutely random things.

I doubt very much those things were random. Cults utilizing siddhis will use them as a distraction much like a hypnotists watch. There are thought scattering and manipulation techniques that are very easy to slip in to a persons head in such a maintained hypnotized state (yes even being lightly mesmerized counts) and most of those cults will further specialize in spreading their propaganda this way. Probably the most famous example is how Charles Manson manipulated people this way (taking advantage of drug and sex induced states to provide "suggestions") all the way to murder on his behalf.




That's nice to hear, I've had the same experience thus far... though in other "paths".


I would love to know all about them



Thank you, I will watch it.
I have mentioned my absurd good luck in life (even my friends have created an expression for it), but the physical "athletic" disciplines have not been part of that "good luck", in that area I only had bizarre and mediocre experiences. I am interested in giving it another try and what you are suggesting can be useful.
Other than that, my current girlfriend (with whom I plan to stay for the whole of my life) is into Martial Arts, Kung-Fu and Tae-Kwon-Do (black belt in both of them and the former national champion in one of them -I have forgotten if it was in Tae-Kwon-Do or Kung-Fu), and she is very good (though she is having a hiatus with such things right now)... HOWEVER she is a bit disappointed with the fact that there is a "spiritual side" in those Martial Arts, but the 2 schools in which she learnt them didn't teach a single thing about that "spiritual side" and were simply focused on combating techniques. So she doesn't know the "spiritual part" of those Martial Arts.

The most spiritually advanced persons I have ever met myself were without exception martial artists and aside from Erik they all avidly avoided (or were plain ignorant of) anything to do with spirituality. It's like they give you half the equation and you need to go out and find general philosophy yourself (works the other way as well). Martial arts is known to be (philosophically) the Path by Fire. I have also heard it described as a short path to the Source, in that if you're practicing the arts I mentioned (or the ones your girlfriend did if done at a VERY high level, not generally speaking) you will be face to face with Source on a daily basis, in that you will be face to face with Reality daily, in that martial arts (and yes yoga too in a less intense way) is a very It-Did-or It-Didn't happen. Much like chemical or alchemical labwork, no?



Well... it can be a good sign or a bad sign, it's relative. My girlfriend is the former national champion of Kung-Fu (if I am not wrong, if I am wrong, then it's Tae-Kwon-Do)... but she was never taught the "spiritual part" at all. Again, just like the other person I mentioned, probably ONE of the reasons for her good skills in Kung-Fu and Tae-Kwon-Do is that she trained a lot (several hours per day).

I believe if one knows what to look for God can be found on the mats or in the gym more often than one might expect. Obviously if you don't know what to look for (are not somehow or another "trained" in philosophy) you aren't going to see it. Or at least recognize it for what it is.

After all, the Body is His also


Know ye not that ye be Gods Temple and the Spirit of the LORD dwells in thee?
-Corinthians, 3-16




No, no need to apologize at all... I feel the need to apologize for rambling a lot... and you answered my questions very well.
I wanted to listen to your point of view and I am glad that you explained it so extensively. As I've said, I live with a black belt in 2 Martial Arts, but she was never taught the "spiritual part" of them (as to give such thing a name... I don't know much about them, so I use the expressions that may be a bit awkward for someone who knows them).
I am glad that you suggested something and I would certainly give it a try. My experiences with physical disciplines (Yoga, Martial arts) have been quite mediocre, but I would like to explore that area... especially in a school that doesn't disregard or ignore the "spiritual side" of them. So your post has been very helpful. Thanks a lot.

I will let you talk with Kio now as to avoid interfering, because it's an area of ignorance for me and I assume that it's more fun to talk with someone who knows. What I had was questions, but you answered them very well.

I wouldn't say you're interfering at all, Kio has already shown he understands the link itself perfectly and I would be willing to bet he even has some interesting notions himself about how they relate to alchemy.

Kiorionis
05-10-2017, 01:11 PM
There is a masculine/feminine division in the kundalini practice, the difference in use is minimal.

Would you mind expanding on this division? I don't want to misinterpret your understanding of Kundalini, because at the moment I do not consider the use of this polarity of kundalini as just 'minimal'. I find it's a very important division, the roots and trunk, if you will.

Visceral
05-10-2017, 06:27 PM
Would you mind expanding on this division? I don't want to misinterpret your understanding of Kundalini, because at the moment I do not consider the use of this polarity of kundalini as just 'minimal'. I find it's a very important division, the roots and trunk, if you will.

I said the difference in use in minimal, not the difference itself. I know not what specific practices you're referring to, but the Root of the practice that we know as Kundalini is about connecting the Root Chakra to the Crown Chakra and nothing else. The way this is done is by simply clearing the channels this energy wants to travel naturally anyway. This is the double spiral of the caduceus and also one application of the Kabblah Tree of Life

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/91/04/f4/9104f4b1465d3e6572bd80c6e37c9903.jpg

The difference in the use of Masculine or Feminine aspects of the Kundalini is itself minimal, while the difference in effect or application can and usually does vary extremely widely depending on what school of thought you're receiving the transmission from, how much does that person understand about what they're doing
(in the BIG picture kind of way).

In the same way that Yin holds no advantage over Yang nor Yang any advantage over Yin, there is no advantage to be gained by studying one aspect of anything to the exclusion of anything else. Zoas female friend had tremendous control over her Yin and Yang with no conception of where either was actually coming from. That the Root of Yin and Yang and Masculine/Feminine Gold/Silver etc are the same is why the Kundalini can be activated without even a mention of the different aspects of the energies.

For precise control and specific application one should understand the differences between Yin and Yang in depth. For the general Way, or the broad path, or the very specific practice of uniting the self with the Self, no understanding of the difference is necessary as the manifestations of the differences are themselves negligible, automatic and easily overlooked when the Root energy is being channeled.

edit. In short the Root and branch may have different applications separately, and these are good to know, but it is also important to remember these applications are not the True Purpose of the Tree, and in fact there is no separation whatsoever from Root to branch or even in reality from Root to branch to Seed to Root again.

Kiorionis
05-11-2017, 05:30 PM
the Root of the practice that we know as Kundalini is about connecting the Root Chakra to the Crown Chakra and nothing else.

I personally disagree, based on my own work with Kundalini. I would say the Root/First phase of the kundalini practice is opening Muladhara to the "Serpent Power" found in the Earth.

The next stage is not only the sublimation of the sexual essence found near the Muladhara chakra up into the pituitary gland, but the essence must necessarily be connected with all glands in the endocrine system (which happens in stages as the Shakti-Sexual energy sublimates).

The Shakti-Sexual essence union is the polarity/division I was referring to, which I have found to be quite interesting to study

At least, that has been my experience with it

Visceral
05-11-2017, 08:08 PM
I personally disagree, based on my own work with Kundalini. I would say the Root/First phase of the kundalini practice is opening Muladhara to the "Serpent Power" found in the Earth.

The next stage is not only the sublimation of the sexual essence found near the Muladhara chakra up into the pituitary gland, but the essence must necessarily be connected with all glands in the endocrine system (which happens in stages as the Shakti-Sexual energy sublimates).

The Shakti-Sexual essence union is the polarity/division I was referring to, which I have found to be quite interesting to study

At least, that has been my experience with it

Ah yes! We are indeed talking about the same thing, but I am painting in broad strokes. You describe specific practices and functions whereas I was merely outlining. Connecting the Root to the Crown very much involves channeling the sexual or creative energy you speak of up and through the body, activating the sets of "lesser" chakras that western science knows as "glands". Or we could say we need to unkink and unblock the pathways this energy naturally wants to travel anyway. This involves the active use of the Body to root out unconcious mental kinks that manifest as tensions in the Body. As these tensions are mental blind spots we will not be able to discover these unresolved knots of mental tension without a practice specifically aimed towards finding and fixing them.

I would love to read a more in depth technical breakdown of the process if you'd be willing to provide it, I'm sure many here would benefit from it and I'm willing to assume you have a more technical background to the practice than I do. As I said, I have no teachers or masters and all that I have learned has been learned intuitively. My yoga is a lot like when I play guitar, which I've also never had a lesson in. I can play I don't know how many songs and scales but if you asked me what chord or scale I'm playing I couldn't possibly tell you. If you asked me how to play something I'm playing I would teach it you in a "your fingers go here, then here, then here" formula. The end result is the same.

So to further clarify, what you bring up is in the nature of further detail work upon my point, the end goal is still the union of Heavenly and Earthly energies, made manifest as One awesome presence.

edit: Could you elaborate on this Serpent Power you mention? I'm familiar with grounding and earthing practices, but don't know specifically what you mean

Kiorionis
05-12-2017, 05:30 PM
Or we could say we need to unkink and unblock the pathways this energy naturally wants to travel anyway. This involves the active use of the Body to root out unconcious mental kinks that manifest as tensions in the Body.

I've personally found the Breath to be more active and productive in raising the energy, and clearing the blockages.

Visceral
05-12-2017, 08:03 PM
I've personally found the Breath to be more active and productive in raising the energy, and clearing the blockages.

When we focus the Mind to direct it's Attention upon the breath, we are stepping outside of our normal consciousness and thereby rerouting our energies out of the pathways we normally travel via habit.

This, in a very similar way to how zazen alows one to "get out of one's own way", allows the natural flow of energy to be reestablished. I very strongly believe that an activated kundalini is the natural state of humanity and all of the bends and kinks that prevent our Serpent from completing it's journey are due to bad habits and a lack of education.

I will attempt to illustrate this same point in a purely physical sense: posture.

From the earliest days of our own independent movement (unless you are very lucky and born into precisely the right family) we are essentially left to ruin our own joints. As a habit people insist on smashing their heels into the ground with every step, with locked knees and no attention to an activated core. After years of this we have epidemics of ankle/knee/hip/back problems requiring total replacement of the joint. This is not a natural sort of arrangement.

Neglecting our kundalini or Chakra pathways results in a similar sort of energetic decay. Could you elaborate more on your specific practice of using the breath to clear these channels? I would imagine many parts of it mirror the merkaba meditation, as it also involves the active direction of both masculine and feminine energies acting as one cohesive force.

I will note here that while I am interested in specific practices and techniques, I view them much the same way as I view kata practice in martial arts, in that they are nice for practice or increasing familiarity with the necessary motions but should not be confused for first hand applicable, real world implementation. The map, as they say, is not the territory.

Kiorionis
05-13-2017, 12:25 AM
[. . .] acting as one cohesive force.

I will note here that while I am interested in specific practices and techniques, I view them much the same way as I view kata practice in martial arts, in that they are nice for practice or increasing familiarity with the necessary motions but should not be confused for first hand applicable, real world implementation. The map, as they say, is not the territory.

I have heard differently, but it's probably depends on the style. In the ones I've heard about and study, the kata are to develop specific muscle memories, so that during competition or 'real-life' applications the body can respond without thinking. It is a matter of merging the map with the landscape so that the two become one.

The same is utilized in static breathing meditations. Breath + lower dantian. This new 'Breath' is then circulated through the channels. Bringing fresh air into the body is vitalizing, physicall, energetically and mentally


Edit.

But I agree that posture is able to augment the breath, after its inhaled, and that the posture pre-breath determines/fixes a higher frequency breath.

Visceral
05-13-2017, 04:46 AM
I have heard differently, but it's probably depends on the style. In the ones I've heard about and study, the kata are to develop specific muscle memories, so that during competition or 'real-life' applications the body can respond without thinking. It is a matter of merging the map with the landscape so that the two become one.

I want to try to avoid going off on a tangent about styles that think katas have real life applications, so I will content myself to this here and say again that Eastern martial arts are by and large theoretical.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html

As I said, I am not familiar with the specific breathing practices you mention. To my perspective they are handled in a first person, hands on method, I have no particular focus on a hierarchy or structure per se. When someone does try to learn yoga from me personally I try to show them the way of what I call Natural Yoga. I tell them to listen to their body, because it is telling them more than any sutra ever could. It shares more wisdom with them everyday than a thousand masters ever could tell you in a lifetime. Your body will tell where your blockages and tensions are, it will show you the best way to heal them if you will listen.

I was not even aware Kundalini was a practice until I was explaining my methods of allowing the Root Chakra energy to unlock and ascend to the Crown, and then when that can be done reliably to Ankh it back into the Heart Chakra, and someone told me that even my description of the spiraling energies resembled an already established system.

I will outline the only meditation I have ever been walked through technically speaking, and this was by Erik Paulson who I say without hesitation is one of the great Adepts walking the Earth. If you aren't familiar with it Kio, I bet it will be right up your alley. If I may be so bold, this is in fact one of the major steps we are all supposed to accomplish this side of the grave.


MerKaBa is centered at the base of the spine and has a direct effect on the kundalini energy that is also housed there. According to the Vedic understanding of the 'Kundalini Energy', it is coiled like a serpent' 3 & 1/2 times at the coccyx and under certain conditions will rise to the top of the body in an 'awakening' experience.

It essentially means that this dormant energy flows freely up the spine and has a positive effect on the various chakras centers of the body. The MerKaBa facilitates this process of kundalini awakening by aligning the energy fields in that location and facilitates greater movement of energy throughout the body. It also opens blocked channels and cleanses the chakra points.



There are 17+1 breaths, where the first six are for balancing the polarity, the next seven for proper pranic flow through the entire body. The further breaths are for shifting the consciousness from 3rd to 4th dimension and finally the last three breaths is for re-creating the rotating Merkaba within and around the body. The last breath is not taught. Once each day, enter into this meditation, until the time comes when you are a conscious breather, remembering with each breath your intimate connection with God.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIjIIoI2xDmauUTTzYt7x726KtFm-ADt3g0FT-gdem4/edit

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a4/02/83/a40283aec3deb4357f183b6a47f32249.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/78/e9/8178e99a7fa7e3d14ac0e514609716aa.jpg

We have gone from Spirit going through it's 7 motions and arrived at the Flower of Life. The next step is to do what we've just done, which is to repeat and overlay the pattern as if each circle was it's own center point. The way this is usually shown to us is like this:

http://old.world-mysteries.com/fol_turkey.jpg
(Turkey)

http://old.world-mysteries.com/fol_amritsar3.jpg
(India)

A very interesting suggestion of a very elaborate Vesica Piscis here on the Temple of Osiris in Egypt:

http://old.world-mysteries.com/OsirisFlowerofLife.jpg

If we cut away that embyro-esque outer layer (something absolutely forbidden to tell anyone not Initiated into the Mysteries for most of our modern timeline) here is what it looks like:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Flower-of-Life-61circles.png

http://blog.world-mysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/FruitofLife.png

http://timeframe-tv.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tumblr_m845pu1Cmw1r1uk3bo1_1280.jpg

https://es.makemefeed.com/?imagehttps=http%3A%2F%2Fsprites.comohacerpara.com %2Fimg%2F12803g-que-son-circulos-transmutacion.jpg
(I'll assume most of you are familiar with how the Platonic solids relate to the Elements)

Here is a beautiful image summarizing several forms of knowledge in their entirety:

https://charlotteszivak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/000aaheaven.jpg

Visceral
05-13-2017, 04:59 AM
The earliest Rabbinic merkabah commentaries were exegetical expositions of the prophetic visions of God in the heavens, and the divine retinue of angels, hosts, and heavenly creatures surrounding God. The earliest evidence suggests that merkabah homiletics did not give rise to ascent experiences – as one rabbinic sage states: "Many have expounded upon the merkabah without ever seeing it."[7]

One mention of the merkabah in the Talmud notes the importance of the passage: "A great issue—the account of the merkavah; a small issue—the discussions of Abaye and Rava [famous Talmudic sages]."[8] The sages Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai (d. c. 80 CE) and later, Rabbi Akiva (d. 135) were deeply involved in merkabah exegesis.


The Talmudic interdictions concerning merkabah speculation are numerous and widely held. Discussions concerning the merkabah were limited to only the most worthy sages, and admonitory legends are preserved about the dangers of overzealous speculation concerning the merkabah.

For example, the secret doctrines might not be discussed in public: "Seek not out the things that are too hard for thee, neither search the things that are above thy strength. But what is commanded thee, think thereupon with reverence; for it is not needful for thee to see with thine eyes the things that are in secret."[9] It must be studied only by exemplary scholars: "Ma'aseh Bereshit must not be explained before two, nor Ma'aseh Merkabah before one, unless he be wise and understands it by himself,"[10] Further commentary notes that the chapter-headings of Ma'aseh Merkabah may be taught, as was done by Rabbi Ḥiyya. According to Yer. Hagigah ii. 1, the teacher read the headings of the chapters, after which, subject to the approval of the teacher, the pupil read to the end of the chapter,[11] although Rabbi Zera said that even the chapter-headings might be communicated only to a person who was head of a school and was cautious in temperament.[12]

According to Rabbi Ammi, the secret doctrine might be entrusted only to one who possessed the five qualities enumerated in Isaiah 3:3 (being experienced in any of five different professions requiring good judgement), and a certain age is, of course, necessary. When R. Johanan wished to initiate R. Eliezer in the Ma'aseh Merkabah, the latter answered, "I am not yet old enough." A boy who recognized the meaning of חשמל (Ezekiel 1:4) was consumed by fire (Hagigah 13b), and the perils connected with the unauthorized discussion of these subjects are often described (Hagigah ii. 1; Shab. 80b).[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism

Visceral
05-13-2017, 05:16 AM
Within Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma-eternal teachings), all teachings defer to the spiritual authority of the Vedas. The Vedas are a series of ancient teachings of which the Rg Veda is considered the oldest. While the Vedas has become an obscure text to the general public, it is filled with powerful spiritual teachings and continues to have much relevance to this day.

What the western scholar does not understand is that the Vedas can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and its meanings are multi-dimensional. From the Hindu viewpoint all truth must be founded or substantiated with the Vedas, or at a minimum, the Vedas is the final authority on spiritual matters and teachings are questionable if they contradict Vedic teachings. Within the Vedas is hidden a science and understanding of the kundalini energy. In reality, it is the oldest record of kundalini yoga. While it is not exactly the kundalini yoga currently known to humanity, all the foundational elements pertaining to a kundalini awakening are contained in the Vedas.


But the most important Vedic deity associated with the kundalini is Agni and Surya. Agni is the kundalini energy, while Surya is not the kundalini per se, it is the kundalini in its triumph or full awakening. Surya is the kundalini having moved to the crown chakra. The source of all Shakti. This is often referenced as the sun being hidden and revealed in the Vedic journey.

While some systems place more importance on the heart chakra than the crown chakra, this is not in conflict. In reality, the heart and crown chakra are connected via a nadi known as chitta nadi. This explains the strong association with the sun (Surya) with the head (crown chakra) and the heart (anahata chakra).


The awakening of the kundalini involves the prana, not just prana itself, but specific forms of prana, which are represented by the Ashvins. The Ashvins represent healing, which is one of the qualities of the two major forms of prana. It is the two major forms of prana (the Ashvins) that is responsible for the kundalini awakening; and their ruler is Vayu, the lord of prana.


While Vedic yoga does address kundalini yoga per se; it does so in a variety of different forms. Vedic yoga clearly uses pranayama, mantra, and mediation. There are three questions that come to mind: 1) Did the Vedic teachings contain yogic techniques that have become lost over the millennia? 2) Was the physical a part of the system, but preserved orally through other traditions? 3) Or was the Vedic form of yoga from the last world age, and did not require the initial preparatory techniques that would become critical in our current age? The current evidence points to probably all three.

Clearly, there is evidence that techniques such as mantra, pranayama, and meditation where part of the Vedic culture. In fact, the entire Sanskrit alphabet can be practiced using various techniques to awaken the kundalini energy. We see postures such as sitting crossed legged (siddhasana posture, which is very important to present day yoga) present. It is not difficult to speculate that the other postures would have been persevered by other systems just as additional systems are preserved by the different Vedangas and Upavedas[2] today. Though it is a samhita, it would not be expected to carry information on physical techniques, but yoga tradition has preserved this information and eventually evolved into what initially appears to be a separate system. But in reality, it is an extension of the Vedas as the Vedas is the spiritual authority as well. In addition, we know that several Vedic seer families have a yogic connection such as Kashyap, Vamadeva, Vashishta and others.


The most compelling evidence comes from the Baghavad Gita itself. Within the Gita (4.1) Krishna states “…Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvaan manave praatha manur ikshvaakave `bavit.” Krisha states, loosely translated, “I have spoken this yoga to Vivasvat, Vivasvat passed [communicated] it to Manu, Manu related it to Ikshvaku.” Here we see a clear reference to yoga’s connection to the Vedic lineage, and yogic information being passed downward through the traditional Vedic lineage. This is a compelling statement that a form of yoga was present within the oldest Vedic traditions.

both this passage and the next contain elements that strengthen the position I am presenting in my other thread, "a gift". Here Krishna himself taught yoga to humanity and in the next we can see there was obviously an early necessary association with Fire, which is a great sign of the Alchemical Art and has since been lost




In reality, modern day kundalini yoga is just another form of the Vedic Yajna or ritual. It contains internal and external elements, though not the physical fire of the Vedic ritual, it relies on a more internal manifestation of fire and favors more internal approaches achieved through outward techniques such as asana. Kundalini yoga within modern society is an expression of the first words of the Rg Veda 1.1.1, AUM Agnim ile, which means, “I worship Agni.”

http://www.vedicpath.com/Articles/KundaliniYogaVedicConnection.html

zoas23
05-15-2017, 05:30 AM
Alas for this curse of Babel, for what appears so clear to me remains a mystery to you, and what you consider cursory knowledge is yet out of my reach.

Funny that you mention Babel, one of my *fetishes* is to investigate the systems that attempted to find a solution (from pseudo-languages based on Logic like the many attempts of Kircher to "channeled" languages like the Lingua Ignota of Hildegard von Bingen or the Enochian of John Dee & Edward Kelley)... but also the limits of language itself (classical negative theologies... to Wittgenstein).


I always find that when one wants the truth of the WHY of a thing, it is best to investigate that things source. The Root will explain the Branch and Flower.

Exactly, that's ALWAYS my approach. Sadly my knowledge of European of European assimilated philosophies is miles away from non-European ones (I was going to write "western" and "eastern", but it would not be accurate for my situation). I probably never understood Yoga because I don't really understand the Hindu Religion (and I mean in its more exoteric form, which obviously means that I understand even less its esoteric forms).


One of the best ways, I understand Fulcanelli recommended a similar sort of approach although I don't fully comprehend the totality of his method, is to trace the etymology of the word you're questioning. This will often reveal more about the thing itself, especially the WHYS and WHERE's and WHEN's, than the people who most commonly use the phrase or language are even aware of. Indeed, their particular cultural bias will usually blind them to any investigation of such roots. Most cultures assume their pieces of cultural identity are uniquely theirs, and have always existed as such, and never question the origins and would almost certainly take it as sacrilege should you ever suggest any origin aside from their (uninvestigated) presumption. I'm sure you witnessed this in the cult you mention if you ever brought up what you're telling us here.

We can put Fulcanelli aside, but other than that, it is one of my favorite methods... a philology.
Yeah, that Yoga Cult I've known was militantly atheist, but still used SOME of the Hindu Religion, but giving it a weird interpretation (short version: the Hindu Gods are actually normal people who lived some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago and their stories were known and some of them invented valuable things, but then India was invaded by a very illiterate tribe, the Aryans, who allegedly did something similar to what the Romans did with the Greeks, a conquest that involved an assimilation of the conquered culture, but they were so illiterate that confused the stories and assumed that these persons were Gods, a concept that didn't even exist for the "first aboriginals" of India... so, in short, Shiva was simply a man who invented Yoga, but not a God, it was "turned into a God" by the conquerers. This is NOT a description of my ideas, but the ideas taught there in that Cult).

Other than that, the philological method is one of my favorites.


However there are nearly an infinite variation of yogas. But, in the same way that there are nearly as many alchemical procedures as there are alchemists, yet there is one true aim to alchemy and one common goal to all alchemists, upon which they conduct their experiments according to the completeness of their understanding of that ONE ORIGINAL, COMMON goal. In the same way, all yogas in straighter or wider or shorter or longer or clearer or more muddled ways seek the SAME THING, and this original thing is the same as the goal of alchemists, albeit in what we could call a different Realm or Kingdom. It is my position that the TRUE STONE of Wisdom requires a mastery of both of these, or any construction will necessarily be considered incomplete.

Specifically, the type of yoga one needs, the one most closely related to the original, complete Art handed down by our beloved Hermes/Thoth, is known today as Kundalini Yoga. This is a specific application of one of the original branches of Vedic yoga known as Hatha yoga, which is what the Western mind is generally in need of.

Oh... I am completely lost with the East. It is funny, the type of Yoga I learnt was allegedly the "true" Kundalini yoga, but Hata Yoga was VERY despised... I never managed to understand the reasons, but I didn't investigate much.

My main interest here is to find a path i which the "athletic" condition of a body is relevant, because it's very different from what I know. It is very obvious that in lots of western schools the PURIFICATIONS were and are important (I can mention the strict vegetarianism of the pythagorean school, of the vegetarianism of the Hermetic Religion and the vegetarianism of the early neo-platonism -The most obvious case would be the letter of Porphyry to his friend who had decided to give up vegetarianism... And the tone of Porphyry shows that his conception was that his friend had given up philosophy as a whole... and it's an interesting letter because a modern Animal Rights activist would find nothing of value there, since none of his arguments is even slightly related to "animal rights").

So it is interesting for me to try to find out why an element that I would call "athleticism" is mostly absent in the "western" traditions (European actually), and is so vital in the Eastern ones. You probably know the classic pythagorean definition of Philosophy and the parable of the Olympic games... Everyone goes there: some people are athletes and go for the prizes and rewards, some others are merchants and go there to make a profit by other means... and then there are passive spectators who go there to observe nature... and the passive spectators are equaled with the Philosophers.

So I am interested in this definition that you bring, in which the athletes would be closer to the philosophers than the spectators.


I don't need to know you well to read your words. You yourself said you are inexperienced in this area. I will switch to using the terms Yin and Yang. Mental practices and mediations such as you provide descriptions of are all nearly exlusively Yin. You yourself said they involved dropping the Body(physical, Yang) component as soon as possible. Hatha yoga, specifically Kundalini yoga and the Merkaba practice all involve going IN to the Body, or merging as much as of the Yin into as much as of the Yang as one possibly can. What your female friend was doing when you pointed to a spot on her body was channeling Yin energy (Chi) through her Body and converting it into Yang energy (Ki) on the spot and at will. This is all something anyone can learn to do and the reason why she was able to do it with no formal training in the Mysteries as we might know them is because these are Natural energy systems, and if you investigate you will find neither Yin nor Yang is itself the originating essence or force. Your friend did not possess a secret warehouse of Chi stored up somehow and there is no secret supply house of Ki energy available either, although one is interchangeable for the other infinitely. The Root energy is what makes the Kundalini and Merkaba practices work.

Oh, I am beginning to get what you mean. I am using terms which are quite foreign to me, but I know ways in which the "Ying" is translated into "Yang", but not truly in an athletic expression... which brings an interesting question: "Why not into an athletic expression?". So, yes, I have a very undeveloped area there.


Zoas, you are truly among the Wise and I hope I have aided you in this, or at least allowed your intuition or inner Muse to perhaps speak more clearly to you.

It is funny how a word resonates. The idea of "Wise" has a very clear meaning to me, so I would not use it. Other than that, yes, what you are saying helps me to understand some things that go way deeper than you can imagine (I don't really mean it in a very philosophical way, but I can see how some things that you mention apply to my life). So you are helping me to think.


Less delicate, or more realistic, or involves ACTIVE use of the techniques, all of which makes it closer to Source. There are many many many fantastic minds that are addicted to martial arts precisely because Judo, or Jiu Jitsu, or wrestling or boxing or muay thai will all, without exception, provide the exact same Void state that their creativity flows from, and all creative people are most certainly addicted to being creative.

Yes, I do not disagree at all. I am understanding that my notion of what you call "Yang" is VERY different from yours, but such thing doesn't mean that I discard your vision, which is probably more "complete".


You would find Jiu Jitsu especially is full of super polite nerds with absurd video game stats who have no problem rolling you into a pretzel and making it fun. xD

Jiu Jitsu... WOW.... You are suggesting for me one of the most "brutal" martial arts. My first reaction when I saw what it was was a very strong rejection. So, that's interesting. Maybe the way to get in touch with that undeveloped area is by a direct confrontation with something that I intuitively find, at least, very "not-my-style".
It would be by far more challenging for me than you can imagine, but that's somehow interesting. I will try to find a good school once I return from a trip that I will be making quite soon.

I learnt a lot from different relationships... another one involved an artist who was into African traditions since she was a child (there is some sort of fashion about them nowadays, but in her case it was something that began in 1984, when such thing wasn't "the hype"). She worked with a system that used 3 "guardian spirits"... one in the front, one in the back and one above the head. She did several ceremonies for me as to show me what she knew, but one of the first ones was to find the 3 spirits. The results confused her... the spirits in her tradition have genres (female or masculine) and the typical case is that males have 3 male spirits and females have 3 females ones... and if there is an exception, it is often in the back. In my case she found a female spirit in the front, a female spirit "above the head" and a male spirit in the back. I was not quite surprised.


Yes indeed I am, although Musashi Miyamoto puts it better than I ever can. I cannot recommend his Book of Five Rings enough. I will have to conduct a separate post upon it I suppose but it is only 5 chapters long, probably less than 100 pages and it will contain different wisdom every time you read it.

Thank you. The suggestions are welcome, because it's truly an area where I know NOTHING (I can't name a single author of Eastern mysticism -the closer I know would be Yukio Mishima, but I got interested in his due to the oddity of his biography and his art -his way of being openly gay in a context that was not exactly "gay friendly", his obsession with the Samurais, and certainly his attempt to perform a coup d'etat with an army of only a few friends of him armed only with swords... which finished in his ritual suicide following his Samurai ideals).


I doubt very much those things were random. Cults utilizing siddhis will use them as a distraction much like a hypnotists watch. There are thought scattering and manipulation techniques that are very easy to slip in to a persons head in such a maintained hypnotized state (yes even being lightly mesmerized counts) and most of those cults will further specialize in spreading their propaganda this way. Probably the most famous example is how Charles Manson manipulated people this way (taking advantage of drug and sex induced states to provide "suggestions") all the way to murder on his behalf.

In my case, I have some 20 years of experience with non-cultist initiatic Orders... So it's quite impossible to manipulate me because I have something quite solid to compare with (I do not mean anything mystical... but absolutely empirical... i.e, things like worshipping a person, following his rules in every area of life, having an index of books which are forbidden to read, the prohibition to discuss the contents of the books of this worshipped person... all that stuff was a HUGE "no no no" for me).


I would love to know all about them

Probably it's too long to explain. I have my own rules about the Orders that can interest me:
-NEVER homophobic, Xenophobic, Misogynist, Racist or Politically oriented Orders.
-NEVER Orders based on the ideas of a person who is worshipped (without caring if the person is dead or alive... and I don't care if it's Blavatsky or Crowley).
-NEVER Orders in which the phrase "that's above your grade" would be pronounced.
-NEVER Orders in which people struggle to get shitty medals and grandiloquent titles.
-NEVER Orders that try to have some sort of political influence.
-NEVER Orders in which the neophytes / apprentices / etc are not allowed to speak in equal terms with the person who has the highest grades possible.
-NEVER Orders which are invasive with the private life of any person (i.e, who are your friends, what you enjoy to do, how you like to dress, with whom you enjoy to speak, who is your partner and the kind of relationship you have, etc... that's your business and no Order has the right to even offer an "opinion" on the subject).
-NEVER Orders in which the person who are not involved with the Order are considered "inferior" in any way.

Other than that, almost ANY Order I know has an external Order and an Internal Order... the first one is mostly about learning a language made of symbols and using them in basic ways... the second one is mostly about going a bit further and somehow making it easier (contrary to what anyone would assume, the "first orders" are always more "baroque" than the second orders, which are by far more "minimalist").



The most spiritually advanced persons I have ever met myself were without exception martial artists and aside from Erik they all avidly avoided (or were plain ignorant of) anything to do with spirituality. It's like they give you half the equation and you need to go out and find general philosophy yourself (works the other way as well). Martial arts is known to be (philosophically) the Path by Fire. I have also heard it described as a short path to the Source, in that if you're practicing the arts I mentioned (or the ones your girlfriend did if done at a VERY high level, not generally speaking) you will be face to face with Source on a daily basis, in that you will be face to face with Reality daily, in that martial arts (and yes yoga too in a less intense way) is a very It-Did-or It-Didn't happen. Much like chemical or alchemical labwork, no?

I can absolutely agree with the idea that some of the BEST initiates I know are not actually "initiated" into ANYTHING in a formal way (which also means that the grades that a person has or doesn't have in X Tradition mean nothing to me).
In the idea of facing the source, I can follow you.
In the idea of translating such thing to an "athleticism".... I am learning from you, but I assume I will have to learn it by myself. The Jiu Jitsu suggestion is excellent actually, mostly because I am horrified by the idea... but that's somehow a good sign.


I wouldn't say you're interfering at all, Kio has already shown he understands the link itself perfectly and I would be willing to bet he even has some interesting notions himself about how they relate to alchemy.

Thank you. We have VERY different perspectives, but that's very interesting for me. There is a whole area that I have never developed (or even understood)... So it is interesting to talk to someone who has done it and somehow force myself to challenge some ideas I have. After a not quite long trip that is coming in the near future, I will do my best to come to terms with Jiu Jitsu. I know I will curse you and hate you and I will ask myself what the hell I am doing there (I am somehow joking here)... but I assume that I will try to find the core of that undeveloped area of mine. It won't be easy, but it can be quite interesting.

Visceral
05-15-2017, 09:41 PM
Funny that you mention Babel, one of my *fetishes* is to investigate the systems that attempted to find a solution (from pseudo-languages based on Logic like the many attempts of Kircher to "channeled" languages like the Lingua Ignota of Hildegard von Bingen or the Enochian of John Dee & Edward Kelley)... but also the limits of language itself (classical negative theologies... to Wittgenstein).

Exactly, that's ALWAYS my approach. Sadly my knowledge of European of European assimilated philosophies is miles away from non-European ones (I was going to write "western" and "eastern", but it would not be accurate for my situation). I probably never understood Yoga because I don't really understand the Hindu Religion (and I mean in its more exoteric form, which obviously means that I understand even less its esoteric forms).

Ah, I hear about Wittgenstein all the time but haven't actually read him. The hindu religion contains some very useful elements but over time was corrupted with so many various competing gods and ideologies that even by the Buddhas time it was essentially spiritually useless except for the original Vedic texts and oldest sutras which were miles less accessible then than they are today. The most straightforward text I've read about it is the Bhagavad Gita, otherwise I focused much more heavily on Buddhism as what the Buddha did was essentially distill the best aspects of Hinduism with his own personal insight into reality and form it into a very coherent system that dropped as much of the "mysticism" and guru worshipping as he could possibly manage.

My biggest gripe with Hinduism is essentially one issue but contains several aspects, namely

1) They insist Samsara is eternal, and unbreakable, karma is inescapable and in this life nothing can be done to improve your situation
2) Enlightenment descends through hierarchy and with the approval of a "guru" only
3) Inherent social class system develops from this understanding that essentially justifies slave labor with a "well they obviously deserve it for being born into that family"

I don't want to hate on the Hindu religion per se, but that amount of ideas that will supposedly bring you to Nirvana that comes out of there are laughably ridiculous. The idea that holding your hand above your head for 20 years somehow accumulates spiritual merit or chitta is a most malicious deception and almost certainly derives from a false guru being accepted as true by a horde of ignorant persons in need of a leader.

However the foundational works of the Hindu faith are extremely valuable, especially, as I said, the Bhagavad Gita:

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/

In short, it is essentially the conversation between a prince on the verge of a battle that will make him King of all India, his revelation of the Universal Truth by the direct hand of Krishna, his conflict of engaging in war after knowing this truth and Krishna explaining the true nature of his existence and human duties in the face of this truth.



We can put Fulcanelli aside, but other than that, it is one of my favorite methods... a philology.
Yeah, that Yoga Cult I've known was militantly atheist, but still used SOME of the Hindu Religion, but giving it a weird interpretation (short version: the Hindu Gods are actually normal people who lived some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago and their stories were known and some of them invented valuable things, but then India was invaded by a very illiterate tribe, the Aryans, who allegedly did something similar to what the Romans did with the Greeks, a conquest that involved an assimilation of the conquered culture, but they were so illiterate that confused the stories and assumed that these persons were Gods, a concept that didn't even exist for the "first aboriginals" of India... so, in short, Shiva was simply a man who invented Yoga, but not a God, it was "turned into a God" by the conquerers. This is NOT a description of my ideas, but the ideas taught there in that Cult).

Other than that, the philological method is one of my favorites.

I am confused by the division amongst Alchemists as to what I can only refer to as the authenticity or usefulness of Fulcanellis work.

However I find it interesting how close that yoga schools ideas actually are to the truth, we find many many references throughout history to the historical characer known in the bhagavad gita as Krishna being originally human, and then through his own efforts becoming as a God, and eventually even the Gods marveled at his wisdom and command of nature. I can't imagine what the timeline they have is based on as it obviously isn't the physical historical record.



Oh... I am completely lost with the East. It is funny, the type of Yoga I learnt was allegedly the "true" Kundalini yoga, but Hata Yoga was VERY despised... I never managed to understand the reasons, but I didn't investigate much.

Yes I find this disdain in many schools of yogic thought and it's just hilarious to me everytime. Every school of yoga teaches asanas in one form or another, and therefore contain hatha yoga in lesser or greater degrees. The idea that a person could practice kundalini while avoiding asanas and therefore hatha yoga can only stem from a confused mind obsessed maintaining lineages and false walls between traditions, where one who has their eye truly open sees only the connections and truths shared between the teachings.


My main interest here is to find a path i which the "athletic" condition of a body is relevant, because it's very different from what I know. It is very obvious that in lots of western schools the PURIFICATIONS were and are important (I can mention the strict vegetarianism of the pythagorean school, of the vegetarianism of the Hermetic Religion and the vegetarianism of the early neo-platonism -The most obvious case would be the letter of Porphyry to his friend who had decided to give up vegetarianism... And the tone of Porphyry shows that his conception was that his friend had given up philosophy as a whole... and it's an interesting letter because a modern Animal Rights activist would find nothing of value there, since none of his arguments is even slightly related to "animal rights").

Bodhidharma is often associated with and reportedly often quoted the Lankavatara Sutra:


The most important doctrine issuing from the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra is that of the primacy of consciousness (Skt. vijñāna) and the teaching of consciousness as the only reality. In the sūtra, the Buddha asserts that all the objects of the world, and the names and forms of experience, are merely manifestations of the mind:

On the contrary my teaching is based upon the recognition that the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself; it teaches the cessation of ignorance, desire, deed and causality; it teaches the cessation of suffering that arises from the discrimination of the triple world.[2]

Because the world is seen as being "mind-only" or "consciousness-only", all phenomena are void, empty of self (atman) and illusory:

There are four things by the fulfilling of which an earnest disciple may gain self-realisation of Noble Wisdom and become a Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: First, he must have a clear understanding that all things are only manifestations of the mind itself; second, he must discard the notion of birth, abiding and disappearance; third, he must clearly understand the egolessness of both things and persons...

As to the first; he must recognise and be fully convinced that this triple world is nothing but a complex manifestation of one's mental activities; that it is devoid of selfness and its belongings; that there are no strivings, no comings, no goings. He must recognise and accept the fact that this triple world is manifested and imagined as real only under the influence of habit-energy that has been accumulated since the beginningless past by reason of memory, false-imagination, false-reasoning, and attachments to the multiplicities of objects and reactions in close relationship and in conformity to ideas of body-property-and-abode.
As to the second; he must recognise and be convinced that all things are to be regarded as forms seen in a vision and a dream, empty of substance, un-born and without self-nature; that all things exist only by reason of a complicated network of causation... As to the third; he must recognise and patiently accept the fact that his own mind and personality is also mind-constructed, that it is empty of substance, unborn and egoless.[3]

Here the Buddha very clearly warns us against holding onto some misconception of "out there" vs "in here". The Body is the Mind is the Body and both are devoid of any self existence or inherent nature, as they are both derivatives and manifestations of the Void, or Spirit, or that Eternal Ineffable Thing, which Zazen points directly to.


However, the Buddha makes clear that the Buddha-nature is not a self (atman) and is empty of self-nature. He states that it is merely a useful means (upaya) of teaching the dharma to others:

The reason why the 'Tathagatas' who are Arhats and fully enlightened Ones teach the doctrine pointing to the tathagatagarbha which is a state of non-discrimination and image-less, is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to teaching of egolessness. It is like a potter who manufactures various vessels out of a mass of clay of one sort by his own manual skill and labor ... that the 'Tathagatas' preach the egolessness of things which removes all the traces of discrimination by various skillful means issuing from their transcendental wisdom, that is, sometimes by the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' , sometimes by that of egolessness ... Thus, 'Mahamati', the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' is disclosed in order to awaken the philosophers from their clinging to the idea of the ego. Accordingly, 'Mahamati', the 'Tathagatas' disclose the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' which is thus not to be known as identical with the philosopher's notion of an ego-substance. Therefore , 'Mahamati', in order to abandon the misconception cherished by the philosophers, you must depend on the 'anatman-tathagatagarbha'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%E1%B9%85k%C4%81vat%C4%81ra_S%C5%ABtra

Finally, here the Buddha explains the the Body is truest form of communication, and the only means of communication in Reality (continued):


One of the recurrent emphases in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra is a lack of reliance on words to effectively express reality:

If, Mahamati, you say that because of the reality of words the objects are, this talk lacks in sense. Words are not known in all the Buddha-lands; words, Mahamati, are an artificial creation. In some Buddha-lands ideas are indicated by looking steadily, in others by gestures, in still others by a frown, by the movement of the eyes, by laughing, by yawning, or by the clearing of the throat, or by recollection, or by trembling.[56]

In contrast to the ineffectiveness of words, the sūtra instead stresses the importance of the "self-realization" that is "attained by noble wisdom"[57] and occurs "when one has an insight into reality as it is":[58] "The truth is the state of self-realization and is beyond categories of discrimination".[59] The sūtra goes on to outline the ultimate effects of an experience of self-realization:

[The bodhisattva] will become thoroughly conversant with the noble truth of self-realization, will become a perfect master of his own mind, will conduct himself without effort, will be like a gem reflecting a variety of colours, will be able to assume the body of transformation, will be able to enter into the subtle minds of all beings, and, because of his firm belief in the truth of Mind-only, will, by gradually ascending the stages, become established in Buddhahood.



So it is interesting for me to try to find out why an element that I would call "athleticism" is mostly absent in the "western" traditions (European actually), and is so vital in the Eastern ones. You probably know the classic pythagorean definition of Philosophy and the parable of the Olympic games... Everyone goes there: some people are athletes and go for the prizes and rewards, some others are merchants and go there to make a profit by other means... and then there are passive spectators who go there to observe nature... and the passive spectators are equaled with the Philosophers.

It is indeed strange that this is so, but I believe there is a simple concept that will explain this division as well as the complete lack of either types of knowledge amongst the north american dwelling cultures, and it is that after the Younger Dryas event cataclysm(s) occurred the survivors (who we would recognize as our universal cast of varying cultural mythological heros) very simply did not have every piece of every puzzle they had previously had mastery of. They very probably exited the few "vaults" that had not been utterly destroyed or drowned or buried under hot ash and mud and then boiling rain and went for whatever few remaining other storehouses of technology and records they could find. There was very probably massive disagreement about whether to use their scarce resources to continue their mission of helping the humans Ascend or to be worshipped as gods until the end of time. There was probably more than one species doing this same thing at one time, and that is how we originally ended up with the competing Empires model we've been handed through history.

In short, I believe the survivors that took refuge near Egypt/Turkey probably preserved the secret of creating the physical portion of the Stone, which conferred upon them great riches and the ability to create massive works of stone and architecture with a relatively small population to draw on a workforce from (I think the Western Art as I describe here being preserved explains the cathedral building mystery) and I believe the Survivors that "landed" near India and China most probably preserved the secret of the Internal Stone, which allowed a great many of them to live conventionally absurd lengths of life and build on many inventions and ideas because of these life spans, and this is why China far outstripped the scientific discoveries of the rest of the world for millennia.


[So I am interested in this definition that you bring, in which the athletes would be closer to the philosophers than the spectators.

The philosophers indeed may be the spectators, but I am concerned more with where God may be found directly.

Perhaps Socrates can help here:


“No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”

Also Plato:


“In order for man to succeed in life, God provided him with two means, education and physical activity. Not separately, one for the soul and the other for the body, but for the two together. With these two means, man can attain perfection.

And Luke 17 20-21


And the Pharisees demanded of Him, "from whence comes the Kingdom of God?" and He answered them, "The Kingdom is not coming with Signs that are seen, nor will they say, Lo, it is Here! or Lo, it is There! For Behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.



Oh, I am beginning to get what you mean. I am using terms which are quite foreign to me, but I know ways in which the "Ying" is translated into "Yang", but not truly in an athletic expression... which brings an interesting question: "Why not into an athletic expression?". So, yes, I have a very undeveloped area there.

I will expound here my understanding of the Yin and the Yang:

Yin is inherently Mental. All conceptions, ideas, thoughts, memories, speculations and daydreams are Yin.

Yang is all things physical, the Body, the Objects of Touch and Perception such as grass, sunshine, animals.

Yin sustains all life as it is very conductive towards Source Energy, or the emanations of the Void. Yang maintains all forms as it hardly conducts Source Energy or Void emanations whatsoever. All the varied forms arrayed before us are both Yin and Yang, the one supplies the energy to nourish and sustain the form, yet these are all inherently possessed of no internal existence. We use Yin and Yang in the same way we use top and bottom to designate parts of your foot. I could not remove the top from the bottom, if I tried I would only succeed in moving the defined areas around and causing you much discomfort. So in reality there is only your foot, yet for purposes of conversation it is useful to discriminate between "areas" of the form. Form itself being only a temporary suspension of Yin into a more or less solid Yang.

And so any meditation whatever that teaches you to convert Yin into Yang in a conceptual way is in fact only showing you further applications of Yin exercise. Until it involves in some way the use of the body it remains conceptual, and therefore Yin. We might also use Chi (internal) and Ki (external) to distinguish between our hands on application of these energies and the eternal revolving Nature we see around us, which we generally control very little and is still partaking of the Yin and Yangness.




It is funny how a word resonates. The idea of "Wise" has a very clear meaning to me, so I would not use it. Other than that, yes, what you are saying helps me to understand some things that go way deeper than you can imagine (I don't really mean it in a very philosophical way, but I can see how some things that you mention apply to my life). So you are helping me to think.

Ah, I can see where the word would have a specific application and thank you for allowing me to correct this error in my thought. Perhaps I should say you have your eyes and ears open and are truly and diligently attempting to decipher the Mystery in front of us. Namaste good soul!

Perhaps I could use the term bodhisattva, but not yet Bodhisattva. :)





Jiu Jitsu... WOW.... You are suggesting for me one of the most "brutal" martial arts. My first reaction when I saw what it was was a very strong rejection. So, that's interesting. Maybe the way to get in touch with that undeveloped area is by a direct confrontation with something that I intuitively find, at least, very "not-my-style".
It would be by far more challenging for me than you can imagine, but that's somehow interesting. I will try to find a good school once I return from a trip that I will be making quite soon.

Ha! It is actually known as the "Gentle" art. I hope the Choke documentary didn't throw you off, Rickson was competing in Vale Tudo or no rules style matches to prove the effectiveness of Jiu Jitsu as a true self defense art, but Jiu Jitsu itself is not trained with any strikes or eye gouging or any of that foolery. I bet I can imagine exactly how challenging it will be, as I have been exactly where you are on this path myself. :) One of the great things about JJ is everyone has been the first day white belt, everyone has dealt with just feeling like you're drowning on the mats and because of this they are all very humble and gentle with new students. It's not like a boxing gym where they basically throw you to the wolves and see if you can make it. I will link some of my favorite videos on this subject, please listen to these people talk about it and do not take my word for it. This is one of my favorites for Sam Harris pointing out that JJ is the real life version of what Aikido claims to be:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmRflw57Sbo

here is one more featuring clips of high level competitors, so as you watch it remember they are fighting for sponsorships and thousands in prize money and are being much more aggressive than anyone will ever be just practicing in the gym:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrA2mDqmf2c


I learnt a lot from different relationships... another one involved an artist who was into African traditions since she was a child (there is some sort of fashion about them nowadays, but in her case it was something that began in 1984, when such thing wasn't "the hype"). She worked with a system that used 3 "guardian spirits"... one in the front, one in the back and one above the head. She did several ceremonies for me as to show me what she knew, but one of the first ones was to find the 3 spirits. The results confused her... the spirits in her tradition have genres (female or masculine) and the typical case is that males have 3 male spirits and females have 3 females ones... and if there is an exception, it is often in the back. In my case she found a female spirit in the front, a female spirit "above the head" and a male spirit in the back. I was not quite surprised.



Thank you. The suggestions are welcome, because it's truly an area where I know NOTHING (I can't name a single author of Eastern mysticism -the closer I know would be Yukio Mishima, but I got interested in his due to the oddity of his biography and his art -his way of being openly gay in a context that was not exactly "gay friendly", his obsession with the Samurais, and certainly his attempt to perform a coup d'etat with an army of only a few friends of him armed only with swords... which finished in his ritual suicide following his Samurai ideals).



In my case, I have some 20 years of experience with non-cultist initiatic Orders... So it's quite impossible to manipulate me because I have something quite solid to compare with (I do not mean anything mystical... but absolutely empirical... i.e, things like worshipping a person, following his rules in every area of life, having an index of books which are forbidden to read, the prohibition to discuss the contents of the books of this worshipped person... all that stuff was a HUGE "no no no" for me).

Based on what you've said, forgive me for saying that girl must have been FIRE in bed for you to put up with such nonsense for so long xD And I would bet if the programming wasn't taking she was just practicing her indoctrination technique on you.

I love the book of five rings so much I will post some of my favorite quotes here. What we must remember is that Miyamoto was an expert in fighting and nothing else. He is not speaking in allegory. He is not using metaphors or allusions. He is in no way speaking in tricks or riddles WHATSOEVER. He is speaking about the reality of fighting another human to the death with wooden or metal implements EXCLUSIVELY. That any part of his wisdom applies to anything else is only proof of his mastery of the SINGLE TRUE PRINCIPLE OF THE SINGLE AND TRUE WAY.


“there is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.”
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings


“The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them”
― Miyamoto Musashi,

Actually I'll just indulge myself with a full on tangent about the Book of Five Rings:


Musashi's most well-known duel was in the seventeenth year of Keicho, 1612,
when he was in Ogura in Bunzen province. His opponent was Sasaki Kojiro, a young man
who had developed a strong fencing technique known as Tsubame-gaeshi or "swallow
counter", inspired by the motion of a swallow's tail in flight. Kojiro was retained by the lord
of the province, Hosokawa Tadaoki. Musashi applied to Tadaoki for permission to fight
Kojiro through the offices of one of the Hosokawa retainers who had been a pupil of
Musashi's father, one Nagaoka Sato Okinaga. Permission was granted for the contest to
be held at eight o'clock the next morning, and the place was to be an island some few
miles from Ogura. That night Musashi left his lodging and moved to the house of
Kobayashi Tare Zaemon. This inspired a rumour that awe of Kojiro's subtle technique had
made Musashi run away afraid for his life. The next day at eight o'clock Musashi could not
be woken until a prompter came from the officials assembled on the island. He got up,
drank the water they brought to him to wash with, and went straight down to the shore. As
Sato rowed across to the island Musashi fashioned a paper string to tie back the sleeves
of his kimono, and cut a wooden sword from the spare oar. When he had done this he lay
down to rest.

The boat neared the place of combat and Kojiro and the waiting officials were
astounded to see the strange figure of Musashi, with his unkempt hair tied up in a towel,
leap from the boat brandishing the long wooden oar and rush through the waves up the
beach towards his enemy. Kojiro drew his long sword, a fine blade by Nagamitsu of Bizen,
and threw away his scabbard. "You have no more need of that" said Musashi as he
rushed forward with his sword held to one side. Kojiro was provoked into making the first
cut and Musashi dashed upward at his blade, bringing the oar down on Kojiro's head. As
Kojiro fell, his sword, which had cut the towel from Musashi's head, cut across the hem of
his divided skirt. Musashi noted Kojiro's condition and bowed to the astounded officials
before running back to his boat.

It was about this time that Musashi stopped ever using real swords in duels.

He eventually realized he had become Invincible in the martial sense and never participated in another duel again. He has a confirmed number of duels of at least 60, reportedly many more, plus many many open field battles he participated in.


Musashi is known to the Japanese as "Kensei", that is "Sword Saint". Go Rin No
Sho heads every Kendo bibliography, being unique among books of martial art in that it
deals with both the strategy of warfare and the methods of single combat in exactly the
same way. The book is not a thesis on strategy, it is in Musashi's words "a guide for men
who want to learn strategy" and, as a guide always leads, so the contents are always
beyond the student's understanding. The more one reads the book the more one finds in
its pages.


Musashi wrote "When you have attained the Way of strategy there will be not one
thing that you cannot understand" and "You will see the Way in everything". He did, in
fact, become a master of arts and crafts. He produced masterpieces of ink painting,
probably more highly valued by the Japanese than the ink paintings of any other. His
works include cormorants, herons. Hotel the Shinto God, dragons, birds with flowers, bird
in a dead tree, Daruma (Bodhidharma), and others. He was a fine calligrapher, evidenced
by his piece "Senki" (Warspirit).

The actual introduction to the Book of Five Rings, I will literally end up quoting the entire work if I go on so I will stop here:


I have been many years training in the Way of strategy called Ni Ten Ichi Ryu, and now
I think I will explain it in writing for the first time. It is now during the first ten days of the
tenth month in the twentieth year of Kanei (1645). I have climbed mountain Iwato of Higo
in Kyushu to pay homage to heaven," pray to Kwannon,"* and kneel before Buddha. I am a
warrior of Harima province, Shinmen Musashi No Kami Fujiwara No Geshin, age sixty
years.

From youth my heart has been inclined toward the Way of strategy. My first duel
was when I was thirteen, I struck down a strategist of the Shinto school, one Arima Kihei.
When I was sixteen I struck down an able strategist, Tadashima Akiyama. When I was
twenty-one I went up to the capital and met all manner of strategists, never once failing to
win in many contests.

After that I went from province to province duelling with strategists of various
schools, and not once failed to win even though I had as many as sixty encounters. This
was between the ages of thirteen and twenty-eight or twenty-nine.

When I reached thirty I looked back on my past. The previous victories were not
due to my having mastered strategy. Perhaps it was natural ability, or the order of heaven,
or that other schools' strategy was inferior. After that I studied morning and evening
searching for the principle, and came to realise the Way of strategy when I was fifty.

Since then I have lived without following any particular Way. Thus with the virtue of
strategy I practise many arts and abilities— all things with no teacher.' To write this book I
did not use the law of Buddha or the teachings of Confucius, neither old war chronicles
nor books on martial tactics. I take up my brush to explain the true spirit' of this Ichi school as it is mirrored in the Way of heaven and Kwannon. The time is the night of the tenth day
of the tenth month, at the hour of the tiger*^ (3-5 a.m.)


You can order versions without the commentary this one has which would make it much easier to read, but heres a version of the whole text:
https://archive.org/stream/MiyamotoMusashi-BookOfFiveRingsgoRinNoSho/Book_of_Five_Rings_djvu.txt


Probably it's too long to explain. I have my own rules about the Orders that can interest me:
-NEVER homophobic, Xenophobic, Misogynist, Racist or Politically oriented Orders.
-NEVER Orders based on the ideas of a person who is worshipped (without caring if the person is dead or alive... and I don't care if it's Blavatsky or Crowley).
-NEVER Orders in which the phrase "that's above your grade" would be pronounced.
-NEVER Orders in which people struggle to get shitty medals and grandiloquent titles.
-NEVER Orders that try to have some sort of political influence.
-NEVER Orders in which the neophytes / apprentices / etc are not allowed to speak in equal terms with the person who has the highest grades possible.
-NEVER Orders which are invasive with the private life of any person (i.e, who are your friends, what you enjoy to do, how you like to dress, with whom you enjoy to speak, who is your partner and the kind of relationship you have, etc... that's your business and no Order has the right to even offer an "opinion" on the subject).
-NEVER Orders in which the person who are not involved with the Order are considered "inferior" in any way.

Other than that, almost ANY Order I know has an external Order and an Internal Order... the first one is mostly about learning a language made of symbols and using them in basic ways... the second one is mostly about going a bit further and somehow making it easier (contrary to what anyone would assume, the "first orders" are always more "baroque" than the second orders, which are by far more "minimalist").

I can absolutely agree with the idea that some of the BEST initiates I know are not actually "initiated" into ANYTHING in a formal way (which also means that the grades that a person has or doesn't have in X Tradition mean nothing to me).
In the idea of facing the source, I can follow you.
In the idea of translating such thing to an "athleticism".... I am learning from you, but I assume I will have to learn it by myself. The Jiu Jitsu suggestion is excellent actually, mostly because I am horrified by the idea... but that's somehow a good sign.

Source delights in play. :) The less restricted the play, the more Source delights in it.




Thank you. We have VERY different perspectives, but that's very interesting for me. There is a whole area that I have never developed (or even understood)... So it is interesting to talk to someone who has done it and somehow force myself to challenge some ideas I have. After a not quite long trip that is coming in the near future, I will do my best to come to terms with Jiu Jitsu. I know I will curse you and hate you and I will ask myself what the hell I am doing there (I am somehow joking here)... but I assume that I will try to find the core of that undeveloped area of mine. It won't be easy, but it can be quite interesting.

There are great schools all over the world but if you live close enough to attend a 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu school I would be SO JEALOUS. The closest one to me is hours of driving away. :(