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Luxus
05-08-2017, 01:51 PM
This paradox has confused many, why do some alchemists assert the stone is made of the four elements, others that it is made of the three components Salt, Mercury, sulphur whilst others insist it is formed by one ingredient only. Even more confusing why do many Alchemists write about how the stone is composed of three ingredients and yet insist in the same tract that even though it is composed of three you must understand that one thing only comprises the stone.

Can we resolve this paradox easily, my answer is yes cheese sauce!

Take a pan of milk and heat it, cut a knob of unsalted butter into it and allow it to dissolve. Next grate unsalted cheese into the heated milk whilst continually stirring until melted. You have now successfully made yourself a simple cheese source.

Made from three ingredients but in reality only one ingredient, butter and cheese are both products of milk!

The three ingredient, one ingredient paradox solved !

JDP
05-09-2017, 04:31 AM
False analogy. Milk is a complex substance itself, made out of several compounds, plus the cheese has several additives.

The real answer to the "one matter only" conundrum is found clearly explained in some texts. The initial mixture that the alchemist himself put together (because nature definitely does NOT make it for him) out of several starting substances eventually becomes "one" (in appearance) as the work on it goes on. So it BECOMES "one", but it starts as SEVERAL. The "one matter only" claim is a deceitful trick if no one informs you what it really means, as it will send you on a hopeless wild goose chase for one substance that can do all of what the alchemists describe, and since it does not exist already made anywhere you will simply waste your time and money looking for it, when you should in fact be investing your time and money in figuring out how to compose it yourself out of the raw materials that nature does provide you with.

Andro
05-09-2017, 04:38 AM
False analogy. Milk is a complex substance itself, made out of several compounds, plus the cheese has several additives.

The real answer to the "one matter only" conundrum is found clearly explained in some texts. The initial mixture that the alchemist himself put together (because nature definitely does NOT make it for him) out of several starting substances eventually becomes "one" (in appearance) as the work on it goes on. So it BECOMES "one", but it starts as SEVERAL. The "one matter only" claim is a deceitful trick if no one informs you what it really means, as it will send you on a hopeless wild goose chase for one substance that can do all of what the alchemists describe, and since it does not exist already made anywhere you will simply waste your time and money looking for it, when you should in fact be investing your time and money in figuring out how to compose it yourself out of the raw materials that nature does provide you with.

Cool! This is exactly the sort of thread/topic where such concepts can (and should?) be debated/scrutinized!

Now THIS can turn into a really productive discussion, IMO!

Schmuldvich
05-09-2017, 04:59 AM
False analogy. Milk is a complex substance itself, made out of several compounds, plus the cheese has several additives.

The real answer to the "one matter only" conundrum is found clearly explained in some texts. The initial mixture that the alchemist himself put together (because nature definitely does NOT make it for him) out of several starting substances eventually becomes "one" (in appearance) as the work on it goes on. So it BECOMES "one", but it starts as SEVERAL. The "one matter only" claim is a deceitful trick if no one informs you what it really means, as it will send you on a hopeless wild goose chase for one substance that can do all of what the alchemists describe, and since it does not exist already made anywhere you will simply waste your time and money looking for it, when you should in fact be investing your time and money in figuring out how to compose it yourself out of the raw materials that nature does provide you with.


http://i.imgur.com/I0BVUG5.jpg
Look, I found an old portrait of JDP!


Someone elsewhere had the following words to say regarding this picture. I believe these words hold value here and are worthy of a repost. I mean, I can't just post an old picture of JDP and not explain it! :p





What does one see here?
I'll start with what I see in the background. One sees a fertile earth with trees and growth having an irrigating spring meandering through its midst. It's not lost on me that this spring is framed between two pillars, cliffs or mounts, which may or may not be symbolic, but hey, this is my interpretation.
So, the background tells us that the subject, (nobleman), is corporeal, earthen in nature and fertile. The wreath of red and white flowers above is the crowing goal. It can't be a mistake that the three X's are centered above as well. This to me is a clue to the triune nature of our subject.
Because the background is predominately blue, one can venture to assume that water and air play a vital role in whatever message this image is to convey. Thus we have Earth, Water, Air and if I can see clearly enough...there appears to be a domicile on the cliff at the upper left side. At the heart of every domicile is the hearth...Fire.
Therefore our four elements rest in the background, our fruit frames the top of our image while our subject matter stands up front to be further studied.
Let's take a closer look at this nobleman. Beginning at the bottom, the foundation, we see that he wears a blackish leg armour. This is indicative of where the body lies within the flask, as well as its colour.
Next we come to the red garb which covers the reproductive parts of our noble. Since this red gauntlet? is more towards the centre of the body, we might say that the blackness of the legs sprouted from the redness of this area.
Next, a gleaming sword separates the lower body from the rest. In other words, the sharpness of this sword, cuts our subject into two parts: being the volatile upper body and the lower fixed body. Is this sword Mercury???
Next, we see a golden ribbon that either separates or joins the two parts of the body. The ribbon is flowing and speaks to it's nature as being fluid. This ribbon binds the hands that hold the sword which is very interesting and very clever.
Moving to the breastplate, we see that it is made of a more pure and whiter metal. Under this metal is a red lining. This is all too descriptive in my humble opinion.
Finally, the emblem of the Swan. Look where it resides...it is the gateway to the solar plexus. The entrance to the Sun, the White Stone. It's background is blue, the colour given to the sea...water!
So there we have it...our starting matter. Is it really this obvious? To some perhaps. Maybe it's just an image of a rich kid on the land of his rich father. Who knows?
It's all in the eyes, that which we see.


We cannot forget the words of St. Dunstan!





It is to be noted that the more ancient Philosophers used not common Sol and Luna in this Work, and therefore they said that their work needed not great Cost and Charges, but that it might be as well performed by the poor, as the Rich: Which were altogether different from the truth, if it could not be performed without common Sol and Luna: for they are very precious and rare, and hardly to be gotten of poor men without great labour. Indeed, many have bought great quantities of Sol and Luna to nothing by this Art, and have unprofitably spent and wasted their Time and Labour, to the destruction both of their Bodies and Souls, which is much to be lamented.

Moreover, in these our Times, we know no man who doth diligently and truly find out the Philosophers Tinctures, but most of them labour absurdly and vainly in vulgar Mercury and in common Sol and Luna; therefore few of them obtain this grace.

Let us take heed; for although Sol and Luna may be subtiliated and mixed with tinctures, and so reduced into lesser tinctures, and Elixirs with mean profit; yet the true way according to the Doctrine of Philosophers, is not in them: for Sol and Luna are two tinctures Principal, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which by nature were never brought to perfect compliment, yet they are separable from their dirty and accidental dross, and afterward according to their proper qualities, are made most fit ferments for pure earth, white and red, so as in no sort they are said to breed any other thing.

For the whole Work is one, and the thing itself is one, and all the whole is derived from an Image. For our Ancestors knew that the parts of this Stone are celestial and concrete; which were altogether absurd if common Sol and Luna were needful to the composition thereof.

“Philosophia Maturata” by St. Dunstan, 1668

JDP
05-09-2017, 06:13 AM
http://i.imgur.com/I0BVUG5.jpg
Look, I found an old portrait of JDP!


Someone elsewhere had the following words to say regarding this picture. I believe these words hold value here and are worthy of a repost. I mean, I can't just post an old picture of JDP and not explain it! :p





What does one see here?
I'll start with what I see in the background. One sees a fertile earth with trees and growth having an irrigating spring meandering through its midst. It's not lost on me that this spring is framed between two pillars, cliffs or mounts, which may or may not be symbolic, but hey, this is my interpretation.
So, the background tells us that the subject, (nobleman), is corporeal, earthen in nature and fertile. The wreath of red and white flowers above is the crowing goal. It can't be a mistake that the three X's are centered above as well. This to me is a clue to the triune nature of our subject.
Because the background is predominately blue, one can venture to assume that water and air play a vital role in whatever message this image is to convey. Thus we have Earth, Water, Air and if I can see clearly enough...there appears to be a domicile on the cliff at the upper left side. At the heart of every domicile is the hearth...Fire.
Therefore our four elements rest in the background, our fruit frames the top of our image while our subject matter stands up front to be further studied.
Let's take a closer look at this nobleman. Beginning at the bottom, the foundation, we see that he wears a blackish leg armour. This is indicative of where the body lies within the flask, as well as its colour.
Next we come to the red garb which covers the reproductive parts of our noble. Since this red gauntlet? is more towards the centre of the body, we might say that the blackness of the legs sprouted from the redness of this area.
Next, a gleaming sword separates the lower body from the rest. In other words, the sharpness of this sword, cuts our subject into two parts: being the volatile upper body and the lower fixed body. Is this sword Mercury???
Next, we see a golden ribbon that either separates or joins the two parts of the body. The ribbon is flowing and speaks to it's nature as being fluid. This ribbon binds the hands that hold the sword which is very interesting and very clever.
Moving to the breastplate, we see that it is made of a more pure and whiter metal. Under this metal is a red lining. This is all too descriptive in my humble opinion.
Finally, the emblem of the Swan. Look where it resides...it is the gateway to the solar plexus. The entrance to the Sun, the White Stone. It's background is blue, the colour given to the sea...water!
So there we have it...our starting matter. Is it really this obvious? To some perhaps. Maybe it's just an image of a rich kid on the land of his rich father. Who knows?
It's all in the eyes, that which we see.


We cannot forget the words of St. Dunstan!





Also words of St. Dunstan!

"Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names."

https://archive.org/stream/fasciculuschemic00deea#page/8/mode/2up

Schmuldvich
05-09-2017, 06:44 AM
Also words of St. Dunstan!

"...Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names..."

Yes!

Excellent source referencing "One ingredient to make the Stone"! Why did you not quote the entire quote?





Argent vive and Sulphur are one thing, and proceed from one thing, therefore white the Leton, viz. Brass with Mercury, because Leton is of the Sun and Moon, a compound Citrine imperfect body, which when though hast whitened and the Philosopher's Gold and Silver, are two principal Tinctures, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which Tinctures can never naturally come to their perfect complement, yet they are separable from accidental dross, and earthly lutosity, and afterwards by their proper qualities in their pure Earths the tinctures red and white are found commixtable, and the most fit Ferments for them, so that they may in a manner be said to want no other thing. Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names. But do thou always understand one thing to be really intended, although accidentally three things may be so called. For the green Lyon, Assa foetida, and white Fume, are altogether attributed to one and the same subject, and are always couched in one and the same subject.

"Fasciculus Chemicus" by Authur Dee, 1629


http://i.imgur.com/6p2Lyba.jpg

Luxus
05-09-2017, 11:25 AM
False analogy. Milk is a complex substance itself, made out of several compounds, plus the cheese has several additives.

The real answer to the "one matter only" conundrum is found clearly explained in some texts. The initial mixture that the alchemist himself put together (because nature definitely does NOT make it for him) out of several starting substances eventually becomes "one" (in appearance) as the work on it goes on. So it BECOMES "one", but it starts as SEVERAL. The "one matter only" claim is a deceitful trick if no one informs you what it really means, as it will send you on a hopeless wild goose chase for one substance that can do all of what the alchemists describe, and since it does not exist already made anywhere you will simply waste your time and money looking for it, when you should in fact be investing your time and money in figuring out how to compose it yourself out of the raw materials that nature does provide you with.

Cheese and butter can be made from milk without any additives. The fact that you with your modern knowledge of the periodic table of elements can call it a complex substance composed of many elements does not mean an ancient Alchemist would have known this. As far as they are concerned it is one substance.

Likewise if an ancient alchemist were to pick a herb and place it in a container with its own juice to ferment as far as he is concerned it is one substance, he is not going to go into the biochemistry of the herb.

Andro
05-09-2017, 11:51 AM
LOL. 'Selective Quoting'. The cousin of 'Selective Reasoning'.

Great to have someone so well-read who can show the bigger picture/full quote as a valid supplementation to the 'edited' version of the picture that is sometimes presented only to the extent to which it supports one's perspective...

Regardless of right/wrong/any other interpretations, I very much appreciate the attention to those details! I would have never noticed it. (then again, I don't read that much Alchemical literature anymore...)


Excellent source referencing "One ingredient to make the Stone"! Why did you not quote the entire quote?





Argent vive and Sulphur are one thing, and proceed from one thing, therefore white the Leton, viz. Brass with Mercury, because Leton is of the Sun and Moon, a compound Citrine imperfect body, which when though hast whitened and the Philosopher's Gold and Silver, are two principal Tinctures, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which Tinctures can never naturally come to their perfect complement, yet they are separable from accidental dross, and earthly lutosity, and afterwards by their proper qualities in their pure Earths the tinctures red and white are found commixtable, and the most fit Ferments for them, so that they may in a manner be said to want no other thing. Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names. But do thou always understand one thing to be really intended, although accidentally three things may be so called. For the green Lyon, Assa foetida, and white Fume, are altogether attributed to one and the same subject, and are always couched in one and the same subject.
"Fasciculus Chemicus" by Authur Dee, 1629

Kiorionis
05-09-2017, 12:24 PM
Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assafoetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names.

For those who aren't familiar with Assafoetida (http://spices.biodiversityexhibition.com/en/card/asafoetidadevils-dung), it is the resin of a plant root and has the nick-name of 'Devil's Dung' on account of it's smell.

Kiorionis
05-09-2017, 12:29 PM
The fact that you with your modern knowledge of the periodic table of elements can call it a complex substance composed of many elements does not mean an ancient Alchemist would have known this.

I disagree. They would have left the milk sit out and witness the evaporation of the fluid, and the powder remaining. They would have burnt the powder and witness smoke emitting from the powder. This shows that milk is made out of at least 3 things, separable. I'm sure the ancients had even more techniques for dividing things, which would show the complexities behind the obvious. Alchemical processes make One Thing, inseparable -- IMO.

As Salazius wrote a while back, which I like to think about, is what he calls 'alchemical mathematics': 1 + 1 = 1

Luxus
05-09-2017, 12:30 PM
Andro, why do you not read Alchemical text any more?

Did you find what you were looking for? Do you no longer believe that you will find what you were looking for in Alchemy or are you looking somewhere else, an alternative path to the same destination?

I myself only recently started reading Alchemical text again, I stopped for some years whilst I explored other paths. Alchemy was my first study though and it always brings me back. But I do not consider myself an Alchemist, I will only be able to call myself an Alchemist when I have held the stone in my own hands....and then perhaps I will deny having any knowledge of Alchemy apart from perhaps having heard the word mentioned somewhere a long time ago :-)

JDP
05-09-2017, 12:31 PM
Yes!

Excellent source referencing "One ingredient to make the Stone"! Why did you not quote the entire quote?





Argent vive and Sulphur are one thing, and proceed from one thing, therefore white the Leton, viz. Brass with Mercury, because Leton is of the Sun and Moon, a compound Citrine imperfect body, which when though hast whitened and the Philosopher's Gold and Silver, are two principal Tinctures, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which Tinctures can never naturally come to their perfect complement, yet they are separable from accidental dross, and earthly lutosity, and afterwards by their proper qualities in their pure Earths the tinctures red and white are found commixtable, and the most fit Ferments for them, so that they may in a manner be said to want no other thing. Of this very Body the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly spoken, viz. The green Lion, Assa foetida, and the white Fume; but this is inferred by the Philosophers from the compound, that they might answer the foolish according to their own folly, and deceive them by the divers multiplicity of names. But do thou always understand one thing to be really intended, although accidentally three things may be so called. For the green Lyon, Assa foetida, and white Fume, are altogether attributed to one and the same subject, and are always couched in one and the same subject.

"Fasciculus Chemicus" by Authur Dee, 1629


http://i.imgur.com/6p2Lyba.jpg

Because I already pointed out the obvious contradiction (compound vs "one matter only") in this passage, here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5259-Qualities-of-a-Solvent&p=49535#post49535). At least the author of the original text was kind enough to put the reference to the COMPOUND there as a warning sign for the careful reader that something is "tricky" in his statements, while the re-editor of the text under the name "Key of the Golden Gate" MALICIOUSLY REMOVED THE COMPOUND reference but left the "one matter only" death trap intact to make sure casual readers would fall squarely for it without any warning.

Schmuldvich
05-09-2017, 03:51 PM
Let us take a look at another translation. It says the same thing.





Let us take heed; for although Sol and Luna may be subtiliated and mixed with tinctures, and so reduced into lesser tinctures, and Elixirs with mean profit; yet the true way according to the Doctrine of Philosophers, is not in them: for Sol and Luna are two tinctures Principal, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which by nature were never brought to perfect compliment, yet they are separable from their dirty and accidental dross, and afterward according to their proper qualities, are made most fit ferments for pure earth, white and red, so as in no sort they are said to breed any other thing. For the whole Work is one, and the thing itself is one, and all the whole is derived from an Image. For our Ancestors knew, that the parts of this Stone are celestial and concrete; which were altogether absurd, if common Sol and Luna were needful to the composition thereof. For it is said, take a body wherein is Argent Vive, pure, clean, unspotted, and incompleat of Nature: such a body after its compleat and perfect cleansing, is much better than the Bodies of Mineral Sol and Luna. Of this self-same body, which is the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly said; that it is a green Lyon, a stinking Gum, and a white Fume. But this is spoken of Philosophers, purposely to deceive Folks, and to bring them into doubts, by the many different names. But understand thou shalt, one thing always is really signified, though accidentally and by names it is said to be three: for the Green Lyon, Stinking Gum, and White Fume, are spoken of one and the same subject, wherein they altogether lie hid, until by Art they are made manifest.

"Philosophia Maturata" by St. Dunstan, 1668

Andro
05-09-2017, 04:25 PM
Andro, why do you not read Alchemical text any more?

Did you find what you were looking for? Do you no longer believe that you will find what you were looking for in Alchemy or are you looking somewhere else, an alternative path to the same destination?

Hi Luxus,

I have most certainly not given up on Alchemy, however I have by now developed my own "innerstanding" of certain Alchemical laws and dynamics, which is good enough for my Alchemical research and experimentation at this point. Perhaps when the time comes, I will go back to some reading, but by then I will most likely know much better what to look for and where.

Additionally see THIS (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3393-General-Comments-on-Alchemical-Texts&p=27483#post27483) and THIS (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3393-General-Comments-on-Alchemical-Texts&p=28202#post28202), as well as the following quote. Also, if you wish to continue this topic, please do it on this thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3393-General-Comments-on-Alchemical-Texts).


I guess I should say it takes a lot of reading to come to the point of burning your books and knowing what is useless.

elixirmixer
05-09-2017, 08:47 PM
There is a very interesting book, not sure who the author is but it's called AlchemyForums Anthology.

In it, one of the writers had a published quote there tht I believe is from the SM thread.

It basically says that SM begins feminine and then gives birth to it's own son or male counter-part. This, is extremely interesting because if that is true, then theoretically the stone could be made out of just the one thing and nothing else.

I imagine people add gold or whatever it is they do, just to try to get faster results, because Hollandus and I'm sure many other writers always say that in the One we find the many ad in the many we find the One.

Perhaps SM can be coagulated to the stone all on it's own!? Which, if this is the case, then obviously that writer is a fuckn genius. Well done to him!

JDP
05-09-2017, 11:42 PM
Let us take a look at another translation. It says the same thing.





Let us take heed; for although Sol and Luna may be subtiliated and mixed with tinctures, and so reduced into lesser tinctures, and Elixirs with mean profit; yet the true way according to the Doctrine of Philosophers, is not in them: for Sol and Luna are two tinctures Principal, red and white, buried in one and the same body, which by nature were never brought to perfect compliment, yet they are separable from their dirty and accidental dross, and afterward according to their proper qualities, are made most fit ferments for pure earth, white and red, so as in no sort they are said to breed any other thing. For the whole Work is one, and the thing itself is one, and all the whole is derived from an Image. For our Ancestors knew, that the parts of this Stone are celestial and concrete; which were altogether absurd, if common Sol and Luna were needful to the composition thereof. For it is said, take a body wherein is Argent Vive, pure, clean, unspotted, and incompleat of Nature: such a body after its compleat and perfect cleansing, is much better than the Bodies of Mineral Sol and Luna. Of this self-same body, which is the matter of the Stone, three things are chiefly said; that it is a green Lyon, a stinking Gum, and a white Fume. But this is spoken of Philosophers, purposely to deceive Folks, and to bring them into doubts, by the many different names. But understand thou shalt, one thing always is really signified, though accidentally and by names it is said to be three: for the Green Lyon, Stinking Gum, and White Fume, are spoken of one and the same subject, wherein they altogether lie hid, until by Art they are made manifest.

"Philosophia Maturata" by St. Dunstan, 1668

Look again, the part about the compound being inferred is notoriously missing from the passage. The original text has it, but not the re-edited version.

Luxus
05-10-2017, 03:16 PM
"Philalethes, in Chapter XIX of the Introitus, after having spoken of the long way, which he describes as tiresome and good only for rich people, says: "But by our way no more than a week is necessary; God has reserved this rare and easy way for the despised poor and for abject saints."

Furthermore, Langlet-Dufresnoy, in his Remarques on this chapter, thinks that "this way is achieved by the double philosophical mercury" and adds: "The work is thereby accomplished in 8 days, instead of taking nearly 18 months by the first way."

This shortened way, which is, however, covered by a thick veil, has been called by the Wise the Regime of Saturn. The boiling of the Work, instead of necessitating the use of a glass vase, requires only the help of a simple crucible. "I will stir up your body in an earthenware vase, in which I will inter it", writes a famous author (45) , who says again further on: "Make a fire in your glass, that is to say in the earth which holds it enclosed. This seems to me to be the shorter way and the true philosophical sublimation, in order to arrive at the perfection of this difficult task." This could be the explanation of the basic maxim of our Science: "One single vessel, one single matter, one single furnace."

In the preface to his book (46) , Cyliani refers to the two process in these terms: "I would like to warn you here never to forget that only two matters of the same origin are needed, the one volatile, the other fixed; that there are two ways, the dry way and the moist way. I follow the latter for preference as my duty although the former is very familiar to me; it is done with a single matter."
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/nelson1_3.html

"By the long first humid but finally dry way, seven months are sufficient for the Artist, but for the quick dry way, five hours are enough."

JDP
05-10-2017, 04:00 PM
"Philalethes, in Chapter XIX of the Introitus, after having spoken of the long way, which he describes as tiresome and good only for rich people, says: "But by our way no more than a week is necessary; God has reserved this rare and easy way for the despised poor and for abject saints."

Furthermore, Langlet-Dufresnoy, in his Remarques on this chapter, thinks that "this way is achieved by the double philosophical mercury" and adds: "The work is thereby accomplished in 8 days, instead of taking nearly 18 months by the first way."

This shortened way, which is, however, covered by a thick veil, has been called by the Wise the Regime of Saturn. The boiling of the Work, instead of necessitating the use of a glass vase, requires only the help of a simple crucible. "I will stir up your body in an earthenware vase, in which I will inter it", writes a famous author (45) , who says again further on: "Make a fire in your glass, that is to say in the earth which holds it enclosed. This seems to me to be the shorter way and the true philosophical sublimation, in order to arrive at the perfection of this difficult task." This could be the explanation of the basic maxim of our Science: "One single vessel, one single matter, one single furnace."

In the preface to his book (46) , Cyliani refers to the two process in these terms: "I would like to warn you here never to forget that only two matters of the same origin are needed, the one volatile, the other fixed; that there are two ways, the dry way and the moist way. I follow the latter for preference as my duty although the former is very familiar to me; it is done with a single matter."
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/nelson1_3.html

What you keep failing to understand is that the "single matter" in question is a COMPOSITE, AND IT IS MADE BY THE ALCHEMIST HIMSELF FROM THE REACTIONS BETWEEN SEVERAL STARTING MATTERS. The MALICIOUS/MISLEADING type of alchemist that Fulcanelli is quoting above is trying to trick you into thinking you will find this "one matter only" somewhere already made for your convenience, and that all you have to do is locate a sample of it "somewhere", pick it up and "cook" it in "one vessel, and one furnace", but there lays the deadly trap: you will NEVER FIND IT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT YOURSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE. Nature is most certainly NOT going to make it for you. She CAN'T. All she will ever give you are the raw matters for YOU TO DO IT. Read Fulcanelli more carefully, unlike some of the MALICIOUS/MISLEADING authors he cites, he is more honest and hardly hides this fact, and even gives a semi-veiled description of how he operated by the interactions between AT LEAST 4 STARTING MATTERS ("scaly dragon" + "valiant knight" + two salts):

If you want to possess the griffin --- which is our astral stone --- by tearing it from its arsenical ganque, take two parts of virgin earth, our scaly dragon, and one part of the igneous agent, which is that valiant knight armed with the lance and shield. (Ares), more vigorous than Aries, must be in a lesser quantity. Pulverize and add the fifteenth part of this pure, white, admirable salt, washed and crystallized several times, which you must necessarily know. Intimately mix it; and then, following the example of the painful Passion of Our Lord, crucify it with three iron nails, so that the body dies and can then be resurrected. This done, drive away the coarsest sediments from the corpse; crush and triturate the bones; mix the whole thing on a slow heat with a steel rod. Then throw into this mixture half of this second salt, extracted from the dew that fertilizes the earth in the month of May, and you will obtain a body clearer than the preceding one. Repeat the same technique three times; you will reach the matrix of our mercury, and you will have climbed the first rung of the ladder of the sages. When Jesus resurrected the third day after his death, a luminous angel clothed in white alone occupied the empty sepulcher...

However, if it suffices to know the secret substance represented by the dragon in order to discover its antagonist, it is essential to know the means that sages employ in order to limit, to temper the excessive ardor of the belligerents. For want of a necessary mediator--- for which we have never found a symbolic interpretation --- the ignorant experimenter would be exposed to grave dangers. Anxious spectator of the drama which he would have imprudently unleashed, he could neither control its phases nor regulate its fury. Fiery projections, sometimes even brutal explosion of the furnace, would be the sad consequences of his temerity. This is why, aware of our responsibility, we urgently beseech those who do not possess this secret to abstain until then. They will thus avoid the fate of an unfortunate priest of the diocese of Avignon, about which the following notice briefly gives an account (2): "Abbot Chapaty thought to have discovered the philosophers’ stone but, unfortunately for him, the crucible burst asunder, the metal exploded against him, attached itself to his face, arms and clothes; he ran in this way along the Infirmaries Street, dragging himself in the gutters as though possessed, and he perished miserably burnt, like a damned person. 1706".

http://www.cista.net/Houses/

As for the "dry" or "short" way being carried out exclusively in crucibles, read here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQyO3C1uXTAhWFiVQKHTWiC-sQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.alchemyforums.com%2Fshowthr ead.php%3F4765-Some-of-the-earliest-mentions-of-the-quot-dry-way-quot&usg=AFQjCNHE1oxYa4xaKb5_cmZBJRi9hPSrcg). The anonymous visitor who gave Helvetius the sample of the Stone is the oldest known source so far for this claim, so it is no older than around the mid 17th century.

And by the way, read Helvetius' "Golden Calf" while you are at it. The very same anonymous visitor who gave him the sample of the Stone told him that the Stone is made from AT LEAST THREE MATTERS (two minerals/metals and the special solvent.) So no "only one matter" nonsense there either.

elixirmixer
05-10-2017, 06:36 PM
So what are these matters JDP?

I'm guessing, Ammonium Chloride, Gold, and the Secret Solvent. You could also ad to that The Spiritus of Rock Salt.

Something like that?

What does it mean to crucify with iron nails?

Luxus
05-10-2017, 06:51 PM
JDP I already explained in the first post how three things can in reality be one.

Ice melting in water is another example of two things that are really one.



"At this point, I must warn you that only two matters of the same origin are needed"
Cyliani: Hermes Unveiled

Luxus
05-10-2017, 08:31 PM
As for the "dry" or "short" way being carried out exclusively in crucibles, read here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQyO3C1uXTAhWFiVQKHTWiC-sQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.alchemyforums.com%2Fshowthr ead.php%3F4765-Some-of-the-earliest-mentions-of-the-quot-dry-way-quot&usg=AFQjCNHE1oxYa4xaKb5_cmZBJRi9hPSrcg). The anonymous visitor who gave Helvetius the sample of the Stone is the oldest known source so far for this claim, so it is no older than around the mid 17th century.

"Aristotle in the Second Book of his Politics --- There is a double way in this art according to the Philosophers, that is --- universal and particular. The universal way is easy and rare, and it is that which is brought forth from true and natural beginnings, by which a speedy and reformative virtue doth presently and in a moment hardens Mercury, and it tinctureth any metal that is duly prepared, into true Gold or Silver.

But the second way is called particular and it is hard and laboursome. Note this, although Alchemy in the universal way be partly natural and partly artificial, yet it is more natural than otherwise, because by nature no strange or foreign thing is brought in the way of true Alchemy, for nature hath whereon to work because actives are joined to passives by a competent union and application, but the rest nature worketh by herself. "

JDP
05-11-2017, 07:06 AM
JDP I already explained in the first post how three things can in reality be one.

Ice melting in water is another example of two things that are really one.

And it proves absolutely nothing. Lava and rock are also the "same thing" but in different states. How does that prove anything?


"At this point, I must warn you that only two matters of the same origin are needed"
Cyliani: Hermes Unveiled

This is quite vague and useless since two different minerals/metals, plants or animals can be considered "two matters of the same origin" (i.e. mineral, animal or vegetable in origin), yet they are still two separate matters.

JDP
05-11-2017, 07:08 AM
"Aristotle in the Second Book of his Politics --- There is a double way in this art according to the Philosophers, that is --- universal and particular. The universal way is easy and rare, and it is that which is brought forth from true and natural beginnings, by which a speedy and reformative virtue doth presently and in a moment hardens Mercury, and it tinctureth any metal that is duly prepared, into true Gold or Silver.

But the second way is called particular and it is hard and laboursome. Note this, although Alchemy in the universal way be partly natural and partly artificial, yet it is more natural than otherwise, because by nature no strange or foreign thing is brought in the way of true Alchemy, for nature hath whereon to work because actives are joined to passives by a competent union and application, but the rest nature worketh by herself. "


That quote is from the 16th century "Rosarium Philosophorum", and no authentic work by Aristotle mentions anything about alchemy. The only Aristotelian work that comes close to it is his Meteorology, but still cannot quite be called "alchemy" yet, though the work had an obvious influence on the theories of the alchemists regarding the generation of metals and minerals inside the earth.

Plus the quoted passage says nothing about the "short" or "dry" method supposedly being carried out only in crucibles. The earliest mention of that particular claim so far is that found in Helvetius' account of what the anonymous visitor told him regarding the manufacture of the Stone.

JDP
05-11-2017, 07:17 AM
So what are these matters JDP?

I'm guessing, Ammonium Chloride, Gold, and the Secret Solvent. You could also ad to that The Spiritus of Rock Salt.

Something like that?

What does it mean to crucify with iron nails?

Two possible interpretations: either the "crucify with three iron nails" means yet another substance entering the operations (and likely in proportion of 3 in respect to the other matters), or it means an actual operation that has to be repeated 3 times. Suppose that the operation in question is melting with a strong fire. The "three iron nails" would then be three strong meltings of the matters being put together and made to react.

elixirmixer
05-11-2017, 07:22 AM
SO you think that in this case, Iron could be refering to Vulcan, ie: Vulgar fire?

JDP
05-11-2017, 07:54 AM
Yes, it is possible. "Crucify" would be the action of heating (in a crucible or other suitable vessel) and the "iron" perhaps the intensity of it. It is one possible interpretation. The other one is an actual substance (either literally iron or something else hiding under that name), being likely used in the proportion of 3 (in respect to the other matters.)

Luxus
05-11-2017, 11:22 AM
http://www.rexresearch.com/adept/aai2vsb.htm

Here are several quotes regarding the short way, you will see that Alchemists acknowledge the long way (moist way) to have a longer history or at least to be more well known and practised.

As to what separates the two methods from what I gather the long way involves the slow and gradual dissolution of the body by the circulation of the radical moisture. The moisture rises as vapour condenses and falls as rain on the body within the sealed container. Over time this continual sweating of the body in its own moisture causes it to open its pores and dissolve.

The dry way makes use of the Azoth, a solvent in which the body is boiled. The solvent more aggressively attacks the body in this process thus shortening what would take months into days. Apparently this short method is prone to explosion and therefore places the operator in danger.


Solinus Salztal ~ Fountain of Philosophic Salts

At this point the old man said: "Behold, now I have doubled mercury in my possession. Now I own it --- white lily, powder of adamantine, chief central poison of the dragon, spirit of arsenic, green lion, incombustible spirit of the moon, life and death of all metals, moist radical, universal dissolving nutriment, true menstruum of the philosophers, which without doing any damage or harm reduces metal to first matter. This is the true water for sprinkling, in which the living seeds of metals inhere, and from which other metals can be produced. Through this water their potency remains in solution in this water. In all kinds of aqua fortis and other such unknown philosophic waters, they lose and relinquish this potency. In this exalted water is the true vitriol of the wise, of which Rupicessa said: "Vitriol or salt is the proper seed to generate all metals, including both the remote and the proximate seed." I will show you its power as clearly as in a mirror: for this water from the fountain radically, silently, and wondrously dissolves all metals, white and black, by its own innate power and magnetic force. In an instant it liquifies metals by its own internal fire. It opens their pores and enters them like feminine seed, attracting the soul of the metal. It leaves the lifeless body behind like refuse that cannot endure the fire. Certainly it is a very marvelous thing that this water strips metals of their dignity. It is the dry path of the philosophers, by which metals are reduced to their first matter. It is considered very swift, but compendious. Since we want to proceed on the humid path, in which common water is added to this water to make it liquid, we must first make the metals very bright. This operation takes a great deal of time and effort, but it is beautiful to look at...

JDP
05-11-2017, 01:50 PM
http://www.rexresearch.com/adept/aai2vsb.htm

Here are several quotes regarding the short way, you will see that Alchemists acknowledge the long way (moist way) to have a longer history or at least to be more well known and practised.

Yes, but the specific claim that the "short" or "dry" way is carried out exclusively in crucibles from beginning to end is found first in the Helvetius account. I have not been able to find any older reference to this claim. Claims about there being shorter ways to prepare the Stone go all the way back to Arabic alchemy. But none of the older writers who mention this say that these shorter methods are carried out exclusively with dry/solid substances heated in crucibles.

Luxus
05-14-2017, 02:12 PM
Yes, but the specific claim that the "short" or "dry" way is carried out exclusively in crucibles from beginning to end is found first in the Helvetius account. I have not been able to find any older reference to this claim. Claims about there being shorter ways to prepare the Stone go all the way back to Arabic alchemy. But none of the older writers who mention this say that these shorter methods are carried out exclusively with dry/solid substances heated in crucibles.

It is not straightforward because in reality there are at least three methods although two are most commonly talked about, moist and dry.

Schmuldvich
05-14-2017, 06:24 PM
It is not straightforward because in reality there are at least three methods although two are most commonly talked about, moist and dry.
What would you say is the third method?

Luxus
05-15-2017, 01:11 AM
What would you say is the third method?

The third way is the royal way and involves elements of the moist and dry way.

Schmuldvich
05-15-2017, 01:26 AM
http://i.imgur.com/zx6BeFD.jpg


I already explained in the first post how three things can in reality be one.



http://i.imgur.com/3mzHfPX.jpg



ONE - 1 - MONAD

Unity - Androgyne - GOD
Seed/Sperma - Point - [Origin]
(Beginning)
Fire

TWO - 2 - DYAD

Duality - Hermaphrodite - Male & Female
Growth/Auxe - Line - [Evolution]
(Separation)
Air

THREE - 3 - TRIAD

Harmony - Spirit
Skin/Khroia - Surface -
(Conjunction)
Water

FOUR - 4 - TETRAD

Composition - Matter
[i]Body/Soma - Solid - [Revolution]
(Production)
Earth



http://i.imgur.com/ALYxGOI.jpg



The third way is the royal way and involves elements of the moist and dry way.
Yes. We concur.

Kiorionis
05-15-2017, 01:32 AM
Yes. We concur.

We? I thought there was only One ingredient? Lol

Also, isn't the 'Monad' considered androgynous, and the 'Dyad' hermaphroditic?

Schmuldvich
05-15-2017, 02:05 AM
We? I thought there was only One ingredient? Lol

Also, isn't the 'Monad' considered androgynous, and the 'Dyad' hermaphroditic?

I would love to discuss the relationships between each level of the tetractys!

You might certainly be right! Different sources say differing things and portray differing relationships between many of the points. In my short study of this magnificent symbol this afternoon, I found the above-mentioned relationships to resonate most well with me, but hearing opposing viewpoints will be quite fruitful in our studies.

In fact, after thinking on this a bit more, I think your way of thinking "Androgynous" for the Monad and "Hermaphrodite" for the Dyad makes the most sense and will edit my post accordingly. Thanks for pointing that out!

Salazius
05-15-2017, 11:26 AM
Yes, but the specific claim that the "short" or "dry" way is carried out exclusively in crucibles from beginning to end is found first in the Helvetius account. But none of the older writers who mention this say that these shorter methods are carried out exclusively with dry/solid substances heated in crucibles.

My opinion is that short and dry can be also in flasks, and with low heat.

Some (Delocques for example) speak about "one" matter sublimed several times until it is fixed.

Fulcanelli speaks about it, and point it with the veiled image of the Typus Mundi.

http://alchemyfraternitas.ru/media/photologue/photos/TYPUS%20MUNDI/TM06.jpg

Luxus
05-15-2017, 01:00 PM
Don't forget the point within the monad

In the beginning...the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep...And God said Let there be light

Within the fire is darkness

Luxus
05-15-2017, 01:16 PM
https://labyrin6-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/orthelius-sendivogius-t.c.-4.jpg

An Alchemist churning milk to make butter

http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/as/web-large/DP152318.jpg

The Devas and Asuras churning the milky ocean to get the Amrita.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgj0UbrvkvU

JDP
05-15-2017, 07:42 PM
https://labyrin6-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/orthelius-sendivogius-t.c.-4.jpg

An Alchemist churning milk to make butter

http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/as/web-large/DP152318.jpg

That image comes from the fourth chapter of Orthelius' commentary on Sendivogius:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/Content/16678/tom6-0428.jpg

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/Content/16678/tom6-0429.jpg

And it is not illustrating the churning of butter but the pounding (in a mortar and with a pestle) of the "little stones" ("lapillos" = pebbles, little stones; this Latin word was often used for the small crystals produced during crystallizations of salts) left behind in the first distillation, after they have been calcined ("postea exustos"), mixed with the distilled "phlegm" (also obtained from a previous distillation), or any common water, which will extract the "fixed salt".