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Visceral
08-05-2017, 10:42 PM
Spin-off topic from this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2780-Entheogens-or-Psychedelics) thread.

--------------------------------------

I agree on the synthetic nature of the LSD experience, it definitely has a digital type vibe to it, but I wonder if your opinion on freebase NN-DMT is more a matter of the method you used?

Done with the correct vaporization technique you can go entirely into the spiritual realm with a single toke, I have never had such an experience when I still fooled with LSD.

The single most healing and insightful moment of my life was brought about by DMT and later huge doses of Psilocybin. Never tried iboga or Aya as I'm not much interested in anything with a purge component.

Awani
08-05-2017, 10:50 PM
Don't get me wrong. I have had deep intense spiritual experiences with smoked DMT.

The purge component of Ayahuasca and Iboga are utterly misunderstood and under valued... and 6 hours of DMT is better than 6 minutes. Why do you think you purge? LOL.

:p

Visceral
08-06-2017, 12:21 AM
I mean my honest answer is that there are probably unidentified compounds irritating your stomach to a very intense point, possibly just impossible or simply too difficult to ingest so once your body has absorbed the goodies it disposes of the waste products. But I dunno really, that's just my interpretation of the pharmacology involved.

Psilocybin actually ends up converting to DMT in utero, I imagine there's not a ton of discernable difference between a heroic mushroom trip and a proper dose of Aya spirit.

Schmuldvich
08-06-2017, 12:25 AM
I imagine there's not a ton of discernable difference between a heroic mushroom trip and a proper dose of Aya spirit.
I assure you, without a doubt, there is a massive difference between a heroic mushroom dose and an ayahuasca experience. No question about it!

Visceral
08-06-2017, 12:28 AM
I am trying to wrap my mind around how this could be. Could you be bothered to provide an in depth post about it, one space veteran to another?

I am most interested to hear if the archetypes and motifs and such are similar or utterly alien to each other.

Schmuldvich
08-06-2017, 12:39 AM
I am trying to wrap my mind around how this could be. Could you be bothered to provide an in depth post about it, one space veteran to another? I am most interested to hear if the archetypes and motifs and such are similar or utterly alien to each other.

I am not the one to ask this question to, as Awani is more qualified and experienced than I with ayahuasca, but to answer your question...I like the word Awani used earlier, "vibes". For one, the "vibes" are different from each other (yet altogether 'similar' in the sense that all psychedelic experiences are) and the state of perception accessed (or "realm" if you will...) is different. You learn things differently and you sense different things throughout each experience. Your mental plane while under the influence of mushrooms is on a different mental plane than when under the influence of an ayahuasca brew. You have had a strong mushroom trip before I'm sure, and you have also had a strong LSD trip before; both are very similar to each other in many ways, yet altogether different.

What you take back from the experience may be related to what you take back from the other experience, and the lessons learned may be the same (it seems our Self is always doing its best to Evolve), but the experience is "different". This is the best answer I can give.

Awani will be able to give a more in-depth answer than my mundane answer that "each individual experience is different".

Awani
08-06-2017, 09:51 AM
I mean my honest answer is that there are probably unidentified compounds irritating your stomach to a very intense point...

Yes. Ayahuasca and Iboga cleans your body from diseased tissue, amongst many other things. Shrooms are only medicine for the mind, Ayahuasca and Iboga are medicine for mind and body.

Understanding these plant medicines with a logical scientific mind is futile. You don't get to know your future wife by studying her DNA, but by spending time with her. The Mystery is more powerful than science, but all scientists should be allied with it.

Like I said most people do not understand the Purge. I personally consider an ayahuasca ceremony without a Purge a massive failure. As for no difference between Shrooms and Aya... this is not correct at all... the difference is a big as comparing drinking water to a shotgun wound to the head. IMO.

One thing people don't understand these days, is that the ayahuasca made and used in ceremonies in Europe and North America is mostly ayahuasca-light. Reason is that tourists, and recreational users, cannot handle the reality of the experience. They rather do baby steps.

Words are useless, but if you drink a proper brew of ayahuasca you'll understand. It is a medicine, and if you do not Purge you are doing something wrong. Usually the remedy is to drink more till you Purge.

When someone who is drunk vomits, it makes them sober up a bit. With Aya/Iboga the experience becomes even more intense. I have enjoyed Shrooms, but I have ascended with Ayahuasca. Both are amazing, but Aya is a beast on its own.

Shrooms are children.
Ayahuasca is mother.
Iboga is father.

That is my experience, altough in Africa Iboga is viewed as a mother...

Iboga is also the most powerful, and what some never seem to believe when I tell them is that, unlike Aya/Shrooms/DMT, whatever you experience on Iboga is REAL in the sense that it is more realistic and HD than reality. The visions are mostly real, not fantasy. I have never met aliens or beings... Instead I have met human beings and Earth animals. A lot of timetravel happens.

I would recommend Shrooms, but Ayahuasca I would say "do it if it calls you", and Iboga I would say: are you really sure?


I am trying to wrap my mind around how this could be. Could you be bothered to provide an in depth post about it, one space veteran to another?

Why is Vodka stronger than Water? Because it is. ;)

:p

elixirmixer
08-06-2017, 10:40 AM
Lol Awani, your just as funny as Dev was haha

Kiorionis
08-06-2017, 09:20 PM
Shrooms are only medicine for the mind, Ayahuasca and Iboga are medicine for mind and body.

Perhaps during the ceremony, mushrooms are medicinal for the mind. But I've noticed a trickling-down effect, which if the ceremony is productive means the person's mind is more active in being healthy physically.

:)

Awani
08-06-2017, 10:05 PM
...which if the ceremony is productive means the person's mind is more active in being healthy physically.

Yes, I considered posting that notion, but decided not to... and the reason for this is that Ayahuasca heals the body even if the mind is not healed and vice versa. The Mushrooms require the mind to listen, the Ayahuasca/Iboga do not care what the mind thinks... it heals the body nonetheless. Of course this healing is more powerful if the mind and the body are in unison. That is ideal.


I imagine there's not a ton of discernable difference between a heroic mushroom trip and a proper dose of Aya spirit.


I assure you, without a doubt, there is a massive difference between a heroic mushroom dose and an ayahuasca experience. No question about it!

Schmuldvich is correct, in my opinion and experience... and I am not sure how to say this, without it sounding like I am putting mushrooms down... which I am not. Mushrooms are great. But Ayahuasca is divine.

Comparing psychedelics is like comparing religions. I just now watched Silence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silence_(2016_film)), a great movie that deals with this very thing. Check it out, won't you.

Proper reply, and the most truthful: nothing can compare to what I have experienced... the same goes for anyone else...

:p

Visceral
08-09-2017, 07:36 PM
Yes. Ayahuasca and Iboga cleans your body from diseased tissue, amongst many other things. Shrooms are only medicine for the mind, Ayahuasca and Iboga are medicine for mind and body.

Understanding these plant medicines with a logical scientific mind is futile. You don't get to know your future wife by studying her DNA, but by spending time with her. The Mystery is more powerful than science, but all scientists should be allied with it.

I mean no offense, but I have to ask what you mean by this. Are you saying there is just naturally diseased tissue in the stomach or are you implying the medicine has the effect of somehow pulling this tissue from wherever it is into the stomach? Here are a couple of my favorite quotes:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/10/3e/5d/103e5d51b093874ea535e5e662538ae5--richard-feynman-the-mystery.jpg

https://guideimg.alibaba.com/images/shop/2016/08/23/54/shirtmania-god-and-science-cannot-disagree-religious-christian-metal-license-plate-frame-bl_24147454.jpeg


Like I said most people do not understand the Purge. I personally consider an ayahuasca ceremony without a Purge a massive failure. As for no difference between Shrooms and Aya... this is not correct at all... the difference is a big as comparing drinking water to a shotgun wound to the head. IMO.

Are you saying the character you encounter at the peak has a vastly different attitude here or what? I know the mushroom Logos usually takes the persona of the Jester/Father archetype, usually only speaks to you in questions (which you learn much more from than any answer), and if you're doing it right will leave you shook but feeling alright, like a child who has just had a stern (and correct) parent explain to them what thry had been doing wrong in just the right way that the child understands it had been their fault, and there's no blame being passed as long as they do their best to do their best from now on.


One thing people don't understand these days, is that the ayahuasca made and used in ceremonies in Europe and North America is mostly ayahuasca-light. Reason is that tourists, and recreational users, cannot handle the reality of the experience. They rather do baby steps.

Words are useless, but if you drink a proper brew of ayahuasca you'll understand. It is a medicine, and if you do not Purge you are doing something wrong. Usually the remedy is to drink more till you Purge.

When someone who is drunk vomits, it makes them sober up a bit. With Aya/Iboga the experience becomes even more intense. I have enjoyed Shrooms, but I have ascended with Ayahuasca. Both are amazing, but Aya is a beast on its own.

Ascended in what ways? I have a pretty particular idea attached to that word.Have you contacted any of the Masters or achieved any DNA activation?

More importantly, are you using all of these experiences and ascensions to return and benefit the grid, or the plant from which your own root stems?

No accusations here, just interested in your answers.


Shrooms are children.
Ayahuasca is mother.
Iboga is father.

That is my experience, altough in Africa Iboga is viewed as a mother...

Iboga is also the most powerful, and what some never seem to believe when I tell them is that, unlike Aya/Shrooms/DMT, whatever you experience on Iboga is REAL in the sense that it is more realistic and HD than reality. The visions are mostly real, not fantasy. I have never met aliens or beings... Instead I have met human beings and Earth animals. A lot of timetravel happens.

I would recommend Shrooms, but Ayahuasca I would say "do it if it calls you", and Iboga I would say: are you really sure?



Why is Vodka stronger than Water? Because it is. ;)

:p

Having eaten 7 crisp grams of the most ancient and venerated friend of native earthlings, I have to say I remain unconvinced of this. I have heard of indigenous shamans consuming entire ounces (28g) in a single sitting. Now, I have never tried the plant brews you speak of (mostly because of the effects you seem to cherish) but I do need to know if you've ever tried such a venture before I can even begin to take the idea seriously.

Edit. I can show you mushroom use evidence going as far back as humans have recorded anything, how long do we KNOW iboga and Aya have been on use? Mushrooms were pretty certainly the first thing else encountered when we became plains dwellers at any rate.

Awani
08-09-2017, 07:52 PM
Are you saying there is just naturally diseased tissue in the stomach or are you implying the medicine has the effect of somehow pulling this tissue from wherever it is into the stomach?

Both. But most issues are cured through the stomach. That is why diets are a vital part in shamanism, the diet changes everything about you (you are what you eat). The Purge is exorcism, and I have vomited parasites, energies and straight up diseases.


Are you saying the character you encounter at the peak has a vastly different attitude here or what?

Yes, but futile to compare. My path is not your path.



Have you contacted any of the Masters or achieved any DNA activation?

Yes... but I don't like the term "masters".


More importantly, are you using all of these experiences and ascensions to return and benefit the grid, or the plant from which your own root stems?

All those things are the same thing.


...before I can even begin to take the idea seriously.

It's hard to compare, because sometimes 1 gram is stronger than 10 grams... but yes I have eaten a lot and I understand that it would be difficult to imagine something more powerful, but it is a general consensus amongst psychonauts the world over that Ayahuasca (and Iboga in particular), are far superior and stronger than anything else you may get hold of (unless you get hold of that weak Westernized brew). But as always, in the end it's indivudal... honestly you can believe what you like (but from my perspective I take Shrooms to relax... LOL)... and if you are "against" the notion of the Purge then stay away from such Plants... but it's your loss in the end. ;)

:p

Awani
08-09-2017, 08:06 PM
I can show you mushroom use evidence going as far back as humans have recorded anything, how long do we KNOW iboga and Aya have been on use? Mushrooms were pretty certainly the first thing else encountered when we became plains dwellers at any rate.

First of all, you don't begin to teach children sentences [ayahuasca], you begin by teaching them words [shrooms]. LOL. ;) (the allegory refers to the notion that the monkeys were the child version of homo sapiens)

Ayahuasca and Iboga usage is more ancient than you think... and Iboga is far older I'm certain. ;) I know you perhaps like the Stoned Ape theory, but Terence never went to Africa... and never did Iboga in a traditional setting.


...how long do we KNOW...

We don't know anything about the past.

:p

Visceral
08-09-2017, 09:43 PM
Well, I certainly can't agree with that last sentence. There's quite a bit about the past that's literally written in stone, if someone is willing to look.

I'm more concerned with and trying to point out that you're making a similar claim to hot yoga teachers, which is something to the effect that everyone is just filled to bursting with "toxins" that need to be purged regularly. This is not the case for anyone who eats well and exercises regularly.

Specifically what I'd like to draw your attention to is that you've plainly long ago set aside the idea that maybe drinking a lot of root/bark mix is upsetting to the stomach, and that this abundance of indigestible plant material can alone explain the vomiting and nausea. Perhaps it would be possible to have the complete experience if one applied an additional filter step somewhere to make a gentler tea or something.

I was wondering if you had actually looked into the history of the brew at all or were just deciding yourself it was "ancient". If it's been around so long and is so profound, you would think people would have carved it in stone, like they did tens of thousands of years ago with mushrooms.

I found at least one story of Terence is south africa, he certainly traveled the middle east and far Asia extensively. Not sure how that's relevant though, anyone can research the behavior of baboons from anywhere.

"Iboga is far older I'm certain"

Followed by

"We don't know anything about the past"

Just pointing out holes here.

Awani
08-09-2017, 09:59 PM
...which is something to the effect that everyone is just filled to bursting with "toxins" that need to be purged regularly. This is not the case for anyone who eats well and exercises regularly.

LOL. Yeah right. Partake of a strong dose of the brew, and then let me know how clean you were. ;) Some toxins could also be traumas connected to your spirit from a few life times ago.


Specifically what I'd like to draw your attention to is that you've plainly long ago set aside the idea that maybe drinking a lot of root/bark mix is upsetting to the stomach, and that this abundance of indigestible plant material can alone explain the vomiting and nausea.

I disagree. It is a medicine. It kills parasites and intestinal infections and cancer and such things. Yes, maybe you are right... but based on my own extensive study and experience my answer is you're way off. Also one other reason people sometimes Purge is because they become sea sick... because when you physically exit this reality and fully enter another, it can make you somewhat dizzy.

Do it, then let's discuss it more.


I found at least one story of Terence is south africa, he certainly traveled the middle east and far Asia extensively..

According to himself he never did go to Gabon. South Africa is not the source of Iboga.


"Iboga is far older I'm certain"

I meant older than Ayahuasca.


Perhaps it would be possible to have the complete experience if one applied an additional filter step somewhere to make a gentler tea or something.

I guess you could parachute from a chair instead of an airplane.

:p

Awani
08-09-2017, 10:13 PM
If it's been around so long and is so profound, you would think people would have carved it in stone, like they did tens of thousands of years ago with mushrooms.

Already answered this. If you want to educate a race you don't start at the end. Mushrooms is a good ice breaker. Ayahuasca knows what "it" is doing. It is here now... are you going to sign up or not? ;) I know "her" personally, she'll forgive your apprehensions about the Purge and probably give you an "extra" dose. Ha ha ha.

The amount you ingest has nothing to do with the result. So even if you just take a little, you can be "in" for a lot and vice versa (from the same batch). That is because "it" is conscious. I know it sounds ludicrous. The good thing with all these things is that NO ONE has to believe me. Anyone can check it out for themselves.

Btw have you ever had 2 or 3 big tokes of DMT? If you have, then you can easily understand Ayahuasca... all you got to do is to extend your DMT-flash from 2 minutes to about 6-8 hours.

Iboga* is nothing like DMT or Psilocybin... in fact Iboga is a beast all on its own. It is hyper-real, and a true Mystery... And I respect it immensely. Does not even feel psychedelic... can't really formulate anything about it properly, even though it was almost five years ago since I did it (not counting one microdose I did a couple of years ago that was also awesome). I am still trying to figure it out... but if Eve ate anything, I am certain it was some Iboga root. LOL.

:p

* don't do it... honestly... if you dislike having a Purge then Iboga is going to rape your soul

Visceral
08-09-2017, 11:07 PM
I am not interested in believing or not believing you, I am interested in the truth, in what can be objectively known. Yes I believe in objective knowledge, there is a medium between our understandings that exists whether or not we are incarnated on this level.

I have indeed had several back to back "deep" DMT sessions. One of the things I've found that I very much enjoy about the DMT culture (online mostly) is the insistence on not stepping over the line of "I know this" because the DMT flash is very unforgiving to those kinds of attitudes. They usually stop new people short and remind them science has never actually observed DMT in the human pineal gland, for instance. This community is the one that pointed out to me that strictly speaking, aside from tradition, there is no reason to think the psychedelic effects of Aya or other such ingestions are directly linked to the purge, or that the purge is somehow necessary for the effects. You can say it is, but you have also very clearly hopped on a particular band wagon and variation of traditional use which precludes the idea that drinking large batches of jungle wood might bother your stomach all on its own.

I think it is important that we truly study these plants to appreciate the effects, and all I'm saying is perhaps you can find a way to receive the beneficial effects without some Abrahamic notion of needing to suffer as well to receive the benefits. But you insist (for some reason) this would make it much less of an experience.

Awani
08-09-2017, 11:19 PM
Look, your argument/theory is irrelevant to me, because it is clear from your words you do not understand what I have tried to explain, albeit somewhat lazily I must admit.

For example: do you honestly think the Purge is the core suffering? Or that it lacks pleasure? Or that it only is vomit?

I have not hopped on anything. You seem to have. Don't be a pussy about it. Either accept ignorance regarding the Purge or drink.

If you want Truth (regarding this) then drink. Only way to know is to experience. Good luck.

Btw I don't enjoy DMT online culture or Changa people. Seem like coke heads to me.

:p

Visceral
08-10-2017, 12:50 AM
Look, your argument/theory is irrelevant to me, because it is clear from your words you do not understand what I have tried to explain, albeit somewhat lazily I must admit.

For example: do you honestly think the Purge is the core suffering? Or that it lacks pleasure? Or that it only is vomit?

I honestly think you've never vomited into a beaker and found out.


I have not hopped on anything. You seem to have. Don't be a pussy about it. Either accept ignorance regarding the Purge or drink.

What have I hopped on? I'm asking you questions. There is a third option, which is that I enjoy the isolated compounds on their own. This would involve needing to move beyond whole boiling chopped up bark in a setting very conducive to mental suggestion, which is what you're advocating.


If you want Truth (regarding this) then drink. Only way to know is to experience. Good luck.

Btw I don't enjoy DMT online culture or Changa people. Seem like coke heads to me.

:p

I'm not surprised you don't enjoy it, they ask a lot of pointed questions and don't let people squirm away with deflections or metaphors.

I don't much enjoy change either although I can see the benefits, I personally might partake maybe twice a year which hardly warrants a coke comparison.

Just a word to anyone unfamiliar with this territory: It is very easy to make sweeping assumptions into this field but very little science has actually been done. It is very easy to repeat cultural cliches (many have been repeated here already) in the absence of knowledge, because the true Void of what we don't know is more than enough to shatter our mind on its own.

Awani
08-10-2017, 09:21 AM
I do not understand your "beaker" comment? It sounds more like you have not done that yourself, after having drank Ayahuasca or eaten Iboga? Or have you?

I am not making sweeping assumptions. I only relate my own direct experiences from studying these matters for so long. I do not disagree with anything you say apart from the notion that Ayahuasca is not stronger than Shrooms, and your views on the Purge.

I am using, studying and thinking about psychedelics only from a shamanistic perspective, because for me that is what makes the most sense... and also what seems to work best with the psychedelics themselves. I have met plenty of people who smoke DMT and use other psychedelics like addicts. They fall in this trap because they lack the shamanic umbrella.

I understand you enjoy the isolated compounds on their own, and if that is your thing then stick to it. But for me it is like microdosing, which I do not like. Everything, or nothing... that is how I roll.

Not sure what cultural cliches you refer to, but I live with my experiences from the moment I wake up till the moment I go to bed. I smell my DMT pipe daily. I do not use it, smelling is enough. I take this very seriously, and nothing I do or say is relevant to anyone else. If they feel it is, then great... but that is not why I talk or write about it.

About 7 years ago I transformed physically and mentally into a wolf/wild dog cub/puppy (it was so detailed that I could even feel my fangs in my mouth, and see in perfect HD my paws... and when I made a sound it was not human), and I had a clear and distinct experience of my very first life in this universe. The transformation was physically felt. I belonged to a family of stone age people, and I lied outside their cave. There was a fire burning. The stars were out and I experienced the experience of becoming conscious as a spirit for the first time. I experienced "being" in its most pure and original form. It was a birth experience. Later I have had a few death experiences as well.

This was not a vision. Not a hallucination. This was real. Nothing on Shrooms (for me) has ever come close to that. And that is just one example, and maybe you have had similar experiences. But from my perspective those deep experiences I have had with Ayahuasca in Peru, and with Iboga in Gabon, has not been matched by anything else in my entire life apart from the birth of my daughter. Anything else is a complete boring joke.

I'm not surprised you don't enjoy it, they ask a lot of pointed questions and don't let people squirm away with deflections or metaphors.

As you know the perfect language is visionary or telepathic, written language is weak and useless. Writing in metaphor is the closest thing we can get to a visionary language when using words. And I do not deflect. I am simply at peace with the notion that only I can fully understand my own direct experience, and only I am responsible for what I have to do about that.

That is why the scientific method is useless when it concerns the Divine Mystery. It's like explaining tax regulations to an ant.

Give me an example of a pointed question concerning these matters, and I will try and explain why it is blunt.

:p

Visceral
08-10-2017, 10:05 PM
Alright, I really didn't mean to get so far off track here so I will try to clarify, summarize, and all around condense the my actual points. The prelude to this is I never said I thought one or the other was "stronger". Only you have been doing that. I asked for an in depth comparison and what I got was the cliches I mentioned, which brings me to my first actual point:

1) What reason do you have for claiming the "purge" is anything beyond a basic and natural reaction to inedible compounds? Would you at least be willing to consider occams razor and ethnopharmacology suggest this is more likely than "tissues" travelling through the blood stream to the stomach to be physically removed? By cliche I mean this is a similar tale told in hot yoga classes and a jillion other traditions and not one bit of it is empirical beyond say yoga helping you sweat a lot.

2) I provided quotes earlier about how God and the divine mystery and science are not at odds. Any philosophical position not based on dualism demands the same kind of integration.

I am glad you had the experience you did. I have had several like it, from specific lifetimes to existing for eons as mineral compounds and everywhere in between. The summary of my insights would be to study the great scientist philosophers and Buddhas/Arharts/Yogis, with a very careful step by step approach just as the one they used. You have had I'm certain the experience of ego death and the "resetting" of your life, all I'm saying is when we build on that most sturdy of foundations we must place each stone thereafter with the utmost precision, care and skill. I do not say shamanism provides no benefits, but to me it is similar to the "introduction" you say mushrooms are. It is certainly the first area a new psychonaut should explore, because we must nuture our connection to the planet and mother nature. Certainly.

However, the scientific method is our friend, ask Archimedes, or Pythagoras, or even our dear Hermes/Thoth. So long as it is not artifical separated from philosophy, it is our true light in the dark, our Promethian Fire.

Awani
08-11-2017, 08:06 PM
Please note that all my answers in this post is my own outlook, since I do not speak for anyone else. Therefore there is no law or dogma regarding these topics... and perhaps a topic on its own (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4536-Belief-amp-Fact-Truth), but scientific fact is an opinion in my opinion, and many of those opinions I agree with... momentarily.


The prelude to this is I never said I thought one or the other was "stronger". Only you have been doing that.

I never did... that debate stems from this quote by you earlier (which is strength related because a mushroom trip cannot compare in my view):


I imagine there's not a ton of discernable difference between a heroic mushroom trip and a proper dose of Aya spirit.

As for the rest of what you wrote:


What reason do you have for claiming the "purge" is anything beyond a basic and natural reaction to inedible compounds?

Direct experience, and near direct experience and non-direct experience... although mainly direct. That Ayahuasca and Iboga (and Iboga in particular) kills parasites of physical, or non-physical, matter is as close to fact as any fact I can adhere to.

As for your yoga reference, I am sure you are aware that many of those practices stem from shamanism in some way or another... especially the cleansing/sweating bit, which is a common technique in shamanism. And it works.

You still do not fully grasp what the Purge is, based on your posts. It is not only vomiting. It can be shitting, pissing, sweating, crying, snot, gas... it can occur in a wide variety of ways. And it is certainly not due to the substance being in your gut in the sense that you argue.

These medicine plants are similar to a vaccine... and you can actually feel it integrate in your body weeks, or months, after you ingested in. With Iboga you can have it physically present in your body for years.

I am not aware of any scientific studies of this, and I am not really that interested in them even if they existed. Proof is actually irrelevant to me, if I am without doubt.


Would you at least be willing to consider occams razor and ethnopharmacology suggest this is more likely than "tissues" travelling through the blood stream to the stomach to be physically removed?

No I would not, because it is simply not "true".


I provided quotes earlier about how God and the divine mystery and science are not at odds.

Science is not at odds with the divine, but it will never explain it either... or give any proof. There is a science to music, but such science does not explain, nor create, beautiful music. I am sorry, but science for me is fun and at times useful... but it is a dead end street if anyone wants to understand the self, the universe and the divine.


I do not say shamanism provides no benefits, but to me it is similar to the "introduction" you say mushrooms are. It is certainly the first area a new psychonaut...

My initial comment to this is simply LOL.

I do not know what your "shamanistic" experiences are, and since you do not know me personally let me explain something, which will hopefully put some background to my answer.

I question everything, even everything I have just said. Even that which contains zero doubt, is put before me on trial. I am always in a state of playing Devil's Advocate, to the annoyance of anyone that spends time with me. If I dive deep into Buddhism and then spend time with Buddhists, they will probably - after a few weeks - think that I hate Buddhism based on the words coming out of my mouth. So what I am about to say took, for me, a lot of personal courage, suffering and humility to accept since I am from a very atheistic and scientific background.

Shamanism [to use this simplified term] is the most effective technique the Spiritual Pilgrim can use on this Earth. Alchemy is its modern form, but lacking [so it seems] in many of shamanism important aspects, especially if the Alchemist him/herself reject the "inner" work.

I cannot explain it, and I do not fully understand it... but it works. Shamanism without the Purge is not a practice that I am interested in, because the Purge is such a big part of the experience... at times the Purge itself is the most essential component. If it is due to the plants presence in the stomach [as you say], or if it is for the reasons I say does not matter.

The Purge has been on more than one occasion the most profound moment in the entire experience... and I have directly felt and seen with regard to myself [and with others] the physical illness leave the body. The Purge is an exorcism.

What you want to create is an experience where one of the most important bits are taken out is, to me, a joke. It might be great for you, but I am honestly not that interested in it. I have also had a Purge when smoking DMT on one occasion, so you might not be able to escape it regardless. ;)

One time I drank a very small cup of Ayahuasca and had the most intense night. The following night I drank two full cups and NOTHING happened. Not even a Purge. Ibogaine is Iboga without the Purge, as far as I understand it... and anyone I have talked to - that has tried both - inform me that Ibogaine is NOT the Iboga experience.

The Purge is drinking Ayahuasca... the Purge is not an effect of drinking Ayahuasca... or eating Iboga. In fact, as you may know, locally it is commonly known as "La Purga", not Ayahuasca.

That Mushrooms was an introduction for the human race and that Ayahuasca/Iboga is the next level, was just a statement I made regarding your "historical" debate on these substances. Almost a joke. But Shamanism is far from an introduction to me... and I would not even suggest it to beginners. It is the beginning and the end. We Westerners call it Shamanism, because we are morons who need words... it does not need a name, and it is more than simply a religious ritual by some tribe.

I hope no one confuses white yoga teachers, in some Sunset Blvd. yoga facility, with the direct keys to unlocking the door to the divine mystery. And whilst some say it might be easy, as anyone can just sit down and drink a cup of Ayahuasca... I say it is not easy.

It might be the most difficult thing a human being can do on this Earth.


However, the scientific method is our friend...

But it will never be our lover.

:p

Andro
08-11-2017, 08:40 PM
Some "shamans" do not use psychedelics at all. I have spoken with a few, some of a particular Cherokee lineage, who simply laughed at the idea of using psychedelics for initiations or for anything else, for that matter... The ones I know and spoke with do use sweat lodges, though... and they have completely different methods to "connect", without ingesting psychedelics.

Also, Castaneda, for example, wrote (thorough the mouth of his 'Don Juan' character) that psychedelics are used for the more "stubborn" cases, those who subconsciously "refuse to see", so certain power-plants are used (not without danger) to kick-start those people to 'jump' beyond their limitations. Some people do not have such limitations, or are not as culturally indoctrinated as others... and some are simply 'born with the gift', so to speak... So, the starting conditions may vary, and with them, the requirements for such initiations.

Personally, I've been through some "hard-core" initiations, of the kind that I was certain I was going to wake up in a mental hospital, IF I was going to wake up at all... Sweating, dizziness, waves of heat and coldness running through me simultaneously, and especially completely losing the notion and the sense of 'self' (to name a few)... No external substances were involved AT ALL, but it was a tumultuous period of my life, an emotional and psychic roller-coaster, so I guess my internal "factory" produced this substances all by itself, when the time was ripe and the moment was right... And I think this is something everybody can do.

I'm just saying it's not written in stone, is all.

PS: I just noticed the thread title was changed to "The Purge", so I guess what I wrote above is now a bit more removed from the topic... So I'm just adding that my own experiences did not necessarily feel like a physical "purge", perhaps more like an "annulment of all previous contracts/agreements" :)

Awani
08-11-2017, 09:04 PM
As far as I gather most shamanic cultures used to reserve the psychedelic plant to the shaman only... that "others" ingest the psychedelic substance is a later development.

Native Americans have a long standing tradition with Peyote, and as far as I know they usually don't talk about this openly when "white men" are close by. Psychedelics is, IMO, as big a part of shamanism as any other shamanistic practice. To deny that it is [not saying it has been denied], is simply to deny the full spectrum of shamanism. However that does not mean that a shamanistic practice HAS TO HAVE psychedelics as an ingredient. I have no issue with that aspect. Or anything else really. LOL.

I would not put much weight behind anything Castaneda wrote or said... unless it is for poetic reasons.

Nothing is set in stone, true... that is why as many shamans laugh at those that do not use psychedelic plants. Funny isn't it. :)

There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground. - Rumi

:p

Andro
08-11-2017, 09:17 PM
that does not mean that a shamanistic practice HAS TO HAVE psychedelics as an ingredient.

This is what I meant. It is not an absolute requirement/necessity.


I would not put much weight behind anything Castaneda wrote or said... unless it is for poetic reasons.

Say what you will, but he has a few extraordinary pearls scattered all over. For example, his elaboration on the terms 'Tonal' and 'Nagual' is very hermetic and alchemical. I would even put them in the same boat as 'Sulfur' and 'Mercury', although they represent much more than that... The Tonal is "the geometry of the code" (and as such, it is a passing thing, having a beginning and an end), while the Nagual is the UN-Created :)


Nothing is set in stone, true... that is why as many shamans laugh at those that do not use psychedelic plants.

As long as there's laughter :)


Funny isn't it. :)

It's all fun and games until someone loses an I :p

Awani
08-12-2017, 07:48 PM
I have been thinking about this topic a bit more and I would like to enhance, and partially change, my reply to the following: it is useless to try and understand the nuts and bolts of psychedelics, what is useful is - if they are calling you - is to open your trap, swallow and shut the fuck up... and listen/watch and remember/integrate. LOL.

:p

Visceral
08-12-2017, 10:25 PM
I mean, I'll try to address more of what you've said but you've already shown what I said correct. You subscribe to an ideology and tradition and this obscures your vision of things. It DOESN'T matter that drinking ayahuasca is "hard". Like at all. You're so deep in this that even though you can't post any proof about these "parasites" or "diseased" tissue you insist they be taken totally for granted. You won't even address that there are a LOT of things you can ingest that will produce vomiting, shakes, the shits, sweating. These are all TOTALLY COMMON reactions to TOXINS. They are all AUTOIMMUNE responses.

You won't even acknowledge (or haven't been willing to poke at) the known effects of harmala ingestion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4075715/


This case was a 45 years old woman who ingested about 50 grams seed of*P. harmala*for hypermenorrhae. She suffered nausea, vomiting, dizziness, tremor, ataxia, and confusion. On physical examination, she had hypotension (BP=90/60 mmHg) with normal heart rate (60 beat/min) and impaired knee to heel test. Her consciousness was reduced without any hallucination. Her laboratory test was normal. She was discharged at good condition 18 hours later.


Harmaline can induce tremor and convulsion without any increase in spinal reflex excitability. It causes respiratory paralysis and hypothermia, It provokes central nervous system depression as well (Mahmoudian et al., 2002*▶). Other neurological effects of high dose of Harmaline include visual trouble, delirium, loss of coordination, and paralysis (Chen et al., 2005*▶).


Similar to our case, toxic effects of other cases presented 3-4 hours after ingestion ofP. harmala. All of them suffered nausea and vomiting as the first symptom that followed by neurological presentations such as altered mental state.

this is not aya. This is one component of Aya taken on its own, totally capable of explaining what you've described.

I suppose we're done at "proof is irrelevant to me". I want to KNOW. You want to BELIEVE.

What great wonders for man has belief ever crafted without being rooted in concrete, earthly knowledge I wonder.

Dendritic Xylem
08-13-2017, 02:27 AM
People 'usually' don't purge from smoking dmt, even with really high breakthrough doses.
So it's probably mostly non-dmt plant compounds causing the purge.

The nausea can be reduced (not eliminated) by precipitating the tannins with gelatin.

When you see the black tar-like tannins glued to your container, you will be glad it didn't go in your stomach.
I scrubbed the container for 30 minutes before deciding to just throw it away. So you might want to use a disposable container rather than a nice one.


PS....To anyone who uses the smoking method. Do yourself a favor and use a quartz banger in a water pipe. Just like dabbing cannabis oil. Best tool by far.

Awani
08-13-2017, 08:41 AM
Please note that sources from organisations controlled by the United State federal government is not a source I will even bother to read. It means nothing.


You subscribe to an ideology and tradition and this obscures your vision of things.

My vision is certainly not obscured. In that case you have fixed upon a certain idea, and obscured yourself.


You're so deep in this that even though you can't post any proof about these "parasites" or "diseased" tissue you insist they be taken totally for granted.

I said I had proof. For myself, for friends... and a bit weaker from people I do not know. And you clearly failed to understand what I tried to explain about the Purge; that it is not only vomiting. I have at times vomited air (energies). You clearly have no experience of the Purge, or your anti-Purge remarks would be different. Your statements does not fit my own experiences at all, and that is why I say - from my perspective - that they are incorrect.


These are all TOTALLY COMMON reactions to TOXINS. They are all AUTOIMMUNE responses.

There are no such thing as "toxins". As Paracelsus famously said: the difference between medicine and poison is dosage


I want to KNOW. You want to BELIEVE. What great wonders for man has belief ever crafted without being rooted in concrete, earthly knowledge I wonder.

Please don't think you know what I want.

I do KNOW. And the great wonders you speak of are material and of no value to me. This life is a fleeting fart in a hurricane. I am living on a larger story arc. It is all about the journey of the self through the cosmos. Everything else is irrelevant. Everything is belief. There is no such thing as fact, only the illusion of facts.

If you want to know, then go find out.


This is one component of Aya taken on its own, totally capable of explaining what you've described.

Milk on its own is not Milkshake. If you want to understand something like Ayahuasca studying each chemical component on its own is useless, and IMO a complete waste of time.


People 'usually' don't purge from smoking dmt, even with really high breakthrough doses.

In my case the Purge came from the experience, not the substance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advice: the only way to be taken seriously is if you have a few Ayahuasca sessions with a Purge... that is the real scientific method to study these things... (just make sure you don't get that weak Westernised brew).

It does not matter to me if the whole world wants to drink Ayahuasca and not ever Purge. That's great. There is one important aspect that everyone seems to ignore: the Purge is wonderful

So even if it is as Visceral claims, then I simply say: and so if it is?

:p

Ghislain
08-13-2017, 12:11 PM
:)

Ghislain

Awani
08-13-2017, 06:44 PM
:)

Exactly.

:p

Visceral
08-23-2017, 06:16 PM
You are like child lost at sea among lights awa. You see past the physical but do not realize it connects directly to the energy fields you love so much. You see past this lifetime but do not understand there is no divider between this life and any other. You are not "living on a larger story arc". You are on the exact same wheel everyone else is and you forever will be until you take your critical matter of factness and flip it back on itself and realize you cannot distinguish between the physical and mental, the interior vs exterior, this vs that and come FULL CIRCLE back to understanding you need material science at least as much as you need philosophy and faith or you are building a one pillar house.

This single structure has done more to maintain and elevate human consciousness than all psychedelics combined ever have. It has easily touched more lives and inspired more minds. It was not built by people shitting themselves 12 a time in a jungle hut and it wasn't built by kids in a trailer laughing at traceries, but it was certainly conceived and built by people with a mastery of the mind and the various compounds that can be used to alter the effects of the mind.

http://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/750/6190.jpg?v=1485682731

A monument to the spiritual and ephermal, built in granite/quartz/limestone that will never shift and is earthquake proof, made to ensure the knowledge of sacred geometry and ratios was never lost to Man, created by those who understood the deepest truth, which is that launching off into space and running away will not and can never provide an actual escape from the mess. You would have to be a dunce to not be impressed with this work.

Unless you haven't figured out the idea is to escape Samsara yet? I suppose we all need to wander and adventure until we're fed up.

Kibric
08-23-2017, 06:58 PM
Dennis Klocek has some good stuff on stone antenna

https://dennisklocek.com/stone-antennae-analogs-electrostatic-capacitance-antennae/

I always thought if the capstone was made from Electrum
it would boost the electrostatic field

Egyptian Royalty loved their Electrum


A monument to the spiritual and ephermal, built in granite/quartz/limestone that will never shift and is earthquake proof, made to ensure the knowledge of sacred geometry and ratios was never lost to Man, created by those who understood the deepest truth, which is that launching off into space and running away will not and can never provide an actual escape from the mess. You would have to be a dunce to not be impressed with this work.

:)

Awani
08-23-2017, 07:21 PM
You are like child lost at sea among lights awa. You see past the physical but do not realize it connects directly to the energy fields you love so much. You see past this lifetime but do not understand there is no divider between this life and any other. You are not "living on a larger story arc". You are on the exact same wheel everyone else is and you forever will be until you take your critical matter of factness and flip it back on itself and realize you cannot distinguish between the physical and mental, the interior vs exterior, this vs that and come FULL CIRCLE back to understanding you need material science at least as much as you need philosophy and faith or you are building a one pillar house.

This single structure has done more to maintain and elevate human consciousness than all psychedelics combined ever have. It has easily touched more lives and inspired more minds. It was not built by people shitting themselves 12 a time in a jungle hut and it wasn't built by kids in a trailer laughing at traceries, but it was certainly conceived and built by people with a mastery of the mind and the various compounds that can be used to alter the effects of the mind.

http://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/750/6190.jpg?v=1485682731

A monument to the spiritual and ephermal, built in granite/quartz/limestone that will never shift and is earthquake proof, made to ensure the knowledge of sacred geometry and ratios was never lost to Man, created by those who understood the deepest truth, which is that launching off into space and running away will not and can never provide an actual escape from the mess. You would have to be a dunce to not be impressed with this work.

Unless you haven't figured out the idea is to escape Samsara yet? I suppose we all need to wander and adventure until we're fed up.

You seem to know a lot about me. Alas your claims are incorrect. They only represent your own subjective view of what I have tried to explain, and that I have failed to explain I might add.

So basically I don't know who you are talking to, or about. Probably yourself.

You do not seem to understand The Purge based on your comments. Don't bother trying to understanding it either, unless you study it directly. As Rumi says: there are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

That structures and societies are achievements is an opinion.

:p

Awani
08-26-2017, 10:26 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/143mJNJBPGuQxy/giphy.gif

:p

Ghislain
08-27-2017, 01:02 PM
There always has to be a carrot!

http://thealchemyforum.com/Images/carrot

Ghislain