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Joshua
08-22-2017, 09:05 PM
Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?

I am initially thinking an alkali halogen, oxide, silicate, sulfide, or sulfate salt possibly mixed with an alkali nitrate/phosphate, sulfur, or quicklime.

I know this is the place to ask!

Joshua
08-22-2017, 09:13 PM
Or maybe the gold (I?) phosphate? I think I remember it melts into a red transparent glassy form without reducing the gold. Does anyone have that reference? Does it corrode metallic gold when molten? What are the principles we should be thinking about regarding molten salts and alchemy?

Joshua
08-22-2017, 09:14 PM
I love the alchemy forums!

Schmuldvich
08-22-2017, 09:50 PM
What are the principles we should be thinking about regarding molten salts and alchemy?

We should not be thinking about corroding gold, only opening gold if we are to extract its seed, once we have our Menstruum/Alkahest/Universal Solvent.

Before applying critical thinking to things such as gold, I would first recommend comprehending the Art that you seek to understand, which can best be done by reading the words the Ancients left us in their books and treatises.

Focusing on the initial steps would be what I would do if I were a neophyte looking to understand Alchemy and eventually experiment. Using gold from the start will only be a waste of money, although admittedly you will see some really neat colors but I assume this is not what you seek!

...Gold and silver are useless in Alchemy until the proper time is reached (which is not at the beginning of our Art).











"A Golden And Blessed Casket Of Nature's Marvels" by Benedict Figulus, 1607

Therefore, my son, let him not attempt this Art who knows not of this new birth in nature, and this bringing forth of metals through the water and spirit of primary matter. For, believe me, all else is useless, vain, and deceiving. Hence philosophers have written that: “Everything brings forth its like; and what a man sows that shall he reap”.

Therefore says the Philosopher Richard, the Englishman: Sow gold and silver, that they, by means of Nature, may bring forth fruit.

Hence, my son, for thy work seek no other body but gold, as others are all imperfect. For gold is the most perfect of bodies, enlightening and vivifying all others, stable in fire, possessing a fixed, incombustible root; and, as Bacon testifies, one can alter nothing in the nobility and perfection of gold, it being free from all natural ferment, and no substance in the world is more perfect. Therefore, says Isaac the Philosopher: “The Stone can only be extracted from a perfect body, the most perfect in the world. For, were this body not perfect, how should we extract therefrom a Stone having power to give life to all mortal, to purify all corrupt, to soften all harden, and harden all soft bodies? Verily, it were impossible to extract to excellent a Stone from an imperfect body! Although many attempt it, yet they are fools”. Therefore, my son, understand that the red, philosophical, Sulphur is a gold, as Richard testifies, and King Calid also states: “Our Sulphur is no common Sulphur, but is of Mercurial nature, stable, fleeing no water”. Other Philosophers also bear witness that their Red Sulphur is gold.

Now, my son, the Sages say in their books that common gold and silver are not their gold or silver, since theirs are living, wile the common are dead, and therefore incapable of imparting to others the perfection they themselves are wanting in. now, my son, those words of the Philosophers are true; it is impossible for common gold or silver to perfect other imperfect bodies, except --- as I have said before --- the Corpus Solis and Lunae be born again through the Water and Spirit of Primary Matter, and arise as a transfigured, spiritual, clarified, externally fixed, subtle, penetrating body, which afterwards shall have power to perfect and multiply imperfect bodies.









"Fount Of Chemical Truth" by Philalethes, 1668

Some Alchemists fail because they put common gold with Mercury in a phial over the fire, and thus sow good seed in barren earth. But gold is not the substance of our Stone in its whole essence, nor yet Mercury. What we want for our work of generation is the seed of gold which is profoundly hidden in our metal. This seed must be received into its own proper womb, and there mingle with the female seed, in order that, being kindly fostered with heat, and fed with its proper aliment, it may become that part of gold which is of abundant use in our work. It is not the whole of a man that generates the infant, but only his seed, which is rightly disposed in the proper womb; and so only the seed of gold (and not the whole metal) is useful for our metallic generation. Gold is the Father of our Stone, the substance of our Stone is in gold, but gold is not the substance of our Stone; yet there is that in gold (the sperm) which, by right manipulation, may become our Stone. We extract from gold, by a cunning process, that which is its most highly matured virtue, and this is called, not common, dead, but our living gold. The difference between common gold and our gold, is that which exists between a Father and his seed; common gold is dead and useless, as far as our work is concerned, until it emits its living seed.









"A Magnificent And Select Tract On Philosophical Water" by Anonymous

It is therefore impossible to perfect other corpora with bad gold, unless the perfect corpus solis is dissolved again, so that it returns to its original substance, and it is turned into a true ferment and tincture through our work and art. On this subject the philosophers say that one can never achieve a good result until the gold and silver are joined together in one corpus.

Now, my son, do not read the words literally, but understand the lumen metaphorice, for the philosophers say in their books that Luna is made of cold and wet Nature, and they also give this same definition to mercurio. So, forLunam, we read mercurius, or water of mercury, or prima materia which is the philosophers luna or Lunae water, as can be read in the wonderful and profound book ‘Clangor Buccinae’. And so, my son, you have had a short lesson that this art is useless unless we bring the perfecta corpora back to its original essence by the philosophical fire or by the water of mercury.









"The Sophic Hydrolith" by Anonymous

But again, we said that common gold, on account of its imperfection and impurity, would not combine with our substance, because its manifold defects had rendered it "dead" and useless for our purpose, and that, for this reason, it must first receive a bright and pure body (not adulterated or weakened by the presence of bad internal sulphur).

Kiorionis
08-22-2017, 09:59 PM
Hi Joshua, good to see you posting again :)

I've had some interesting developments with sulphides taken from hot springs on copper, but no experience with gold.

elixirmixer
08-22-2017, 10:09 PM
@ Smuldvich - it's not always someone's intention to make the P Stone. Save your Raving for when it is. :o

@ Joshua - in regards to 'the principals' your are looking for the attribute of penetration. This is achieved to varying degrees, in all volatile salts. Nitrates are great. If we consider things like nitric acid, and HCL, these are kind of already molten volatile Salts, which may become a little more obvious upon freezing.

What is the purpose of this experiment Joshua?

Schmuldvich
08-22-2017, 10:10 PM
@ Smuldvich - it's not always someone's intention to make the P Stone. Save your Raving for when it is. :o
"Practical Alchemy" (the section of the message board this was posted in) = Seeking the Philosopher's Stone



Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?

I am initially thinking an alkali halogen, oxide, silicate, sulfide, or sulfate salt possibly mixed with an alkali nitrate/phosphate, sulfur, or quicklime.

I know this is the place to ask!
When thinking of 'molten salts', I would be more inclined to aliken these 'molten salts' to our Spirt and research from there. Surely much could be learned this way!



I love the alchemy forums!
Post more! This place isn't active enough!!!

abdo
08-22-2017, 10:26 PM
Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?

Consider using Lactose the sugar extracted from milk.

Luxus
08-22-2017, 10:29 PM
Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?

I am initially thinking an alkali halogen, oxide, silicate, sulfide, or sulfate salt possibly mixed with an alkali nitrate/phosphate, sulfur, or quicklime.

I know this is the place to ask!

I think any salt that will corrode gold will form a compound with it also so dont think the answer is in salts.
I think any acid that will corrode gold will also form compound salt.

I think electricity is the answer to corrode the gold but the solution you do this in must not be composed of elements that form compounds with gold. You could use distilled water but then there is a chance the gold will react with oxygen molecules to form gold oxide.

elixirmixer
08-22-2017, 10:38 PM
I think any salt that will corrode gold will form a compound with it also so dont think the answer is in salts.
I think any acid that will corrode gold will also form compound salt.

I think electricity is the answer to corrode the gold but the solution you do this in must not be composed of elements that form compounds with gold. You could use distilled water but then there is a chance the gold will react with oxygen molecules to form gold oxide.

I agree.

Joshua, if the idea is to make medicine or work towards the PStone, I would undofrunatly have to agree with Schmuldivch. Go and keep looking it Spiritus Mundi (in it's pure form).

That's the solvent that your looking for... The spiritus mundi, celestial agriculture and EM's PS Thread all have the answers your lookin for.

Kiorionis
08-22-2017, 10:47 PM
Consider using Lactose the sugar extracted from milk.

Thanks abdo! I like this idea.

Luxus
08-22-2017, 11:05 PM
Making nano particle gold could be interesting though its not Alchemy proper.

Another way may be to dissolve gold in mercury. You then place this under water and boil the water. The mercury should boil off at 100c but it wont be hot enough to melt the gold so you should be left with a deposit of fine gold powder on the bottom of the container.

hopefully you know mercury vapour is deadly poisonous though!

Luxus
08-22-2017, 11:13 PM
Consider using Lactose the sugar extracted from milk.

why do you think this would work, I'm not seeing how this would breakdown gold.

Joshua
08-22-2017, 11:24 PM
"Practical Alchemy" (the section of the message board this was posted in) = Seeking the Philosopher's Stone

Yeah. I would agree with you. I was talking generally about the philosopher's stone. I provisionally hold that alchemy is the art and science of creating a philosopher's stone which can transmute into gold and this transmutation is not effected but by highly disaggregated gold. It may be that David Hudson is correct when he claims his evidence shows that gold is the only element which can form an entangled/Bose-Einstein condensate at room temp (and body temp) and above. Metallic gold goes through the colors as it is disaggregated or "opened" based on different particle size/shapes interacting with light.

It appears that alchemists through the centuries have used rather a lot of ways to disaggregate gold to a transmuting form which would tinge other metals. I mean EVERY SINGLE philosopher's stone, as far as I know, can or does feature dissolving/disaggregating gold... one of the HARDEST metals to dissolve!!! If it is the philosopher's stone, it MUST disaggregate gold, yes?

Schmuldvich, so would you think it reasonable to start anywhere in practical alchemy outside of learning what specific things can disaggregate gold? Isn't that actually the secret key? ;-) NB NB ;-)
Elixirmixer, I also tend to think of acids as molten salts. I wonder how they would be different if the H2 did not escape?

The sodium equivalent to aqua regia is molten NaCl (sodium chloride) + molten NaNO3 (sodium nitrate).
Sodium carbonate (natron) melted with niter should disaggregate gold, too, right? Like natron melted with sulfur?
Does gold disaggregate in quicklime and sodium chloride as silver?
Anyone tried something like CeraBlak or something similar? http://www.atfinet.com/index.php/applications/thermal-management/molten-salts

Joshua
08-22-2017, 11:29 PM
Traditionally, is the long wet way mercury and the dry way sulfur and salt?

Luxus
08-22-2017, 11:49 PM
Traditionally, is the long wet way mercury and the dry way sulfur and salt?

The dry way uses the azoth to dissolve the body.

I think the wet way is basically Chinese alchemy. I read some of their text and I could not find the use of the azoth in it.

Schmuldvich
08-23-2017, 12:33 AM
I mean EVERY SINGLE philosopher's stone, as far as I know, can or does feature dissolving/disaggregating gold... one of the HARDEST metals to dissolve!!! If it is the philosopher's stone, it MUST disaggregate gold, yes?

Schmuldvich, so would you think it reasonable to start anywhere in practical alchemy outside of learning what specific things can disaggregate gold? Isn't that actually the secret key? ;-) NB NB ;-)
There is only one stone of the Philosophers, the Philosopher's Stone.

One must first learn the basics and have a sound foundation to stand upon if they ever want to succeed in this Art. Disaggregating gold is not a basic tenant of Alchemy, at least not from the start. It is something to be learned after you have our Universal Solvent in your possession.

Our Universal Solvent is the only substance that will successfully open gold.

None of the charlatans and self-deceived folk on the internet who "dissolve gold" are able to do anything worthwhile with it afterwords. Do you know why?



Traditionally, is the long wet way mercury and the dry way sulfur and salt?
There are indeed two ways down the One Path to produce the Philosopher's Stone. One is the "Wet Way" (Long) and the other is the "Dry Way" (Short).

The "Wet Way" is the long, standard, difficult, poor-man's route which needn't be taken to completion if the plan is to go the "Dry Way". If an individual succeeds in producing our Universal Solvent via the "Wet Way" he does not need to continue the "Wet Way" all the way to completion (procuring the Philosopher's Stone) and can stop once he obtains our Universal Solvent.

The "Dry Way" is the short, abbreviated, easy, rich-man's route which uses our Universal Solvent to abbreviate our Great Work to procure the Philosopher's Stone.




WET WAY






"A Lexicon Of Alchemy" by Martin Rulandus, 1612

Other Philosophers, subsequently, after another method, which is the humid way, have extracted from the interior of Mercury an igneous spirit, which is mineral, vegetable, and reproductive. In the humid concavity of this spirit is concealed the primitive Mercury, or universal quintessence. By the means of this spirit, they have attracted the spiritual seed contained in gold, and have thus obtained their sulphur, and that Mercury of the Philosophers which is neither solid as a Metal, nor of fluid-like Quicksilver, but has a medial condition between them.








"The Dwelling Of The Philosophers" by Fulcanelli, 1929

From Compostella the return can be made either by the same path, following a different itinerary or by the wet or maritime path, the only way the authors indicate in their writings. In this case the pilgrim choosing the maritime route boards under the leadership of an expert pilot, a proven mediator captain capable of ensuring the safety of the vessel during the entire crossing. Such is the difficult part played by the Pilote de l’Onde Vive because the sea is full of reefs, and storms are frequent. Indeed, in our opinion, the dry path would be preferable, but we have no choice. Cyliani warns his reader that he describes the wet way, full of difficulties and surprises, only by duty. Our Adept deems the same, and we must respect his will.




DRY WAY






"A Lexicon Of Alchemy" by Martin Rulandus, 1612

Those Philosophers who experimented by the dry path have succeeded in rendering a part of their gold volatile, and reducing it into a sublimate, white as snow and shining like crystal. The remaining portion they have converted into a fixed salt, and from the conjunction of the volatile and the fixed, they have made their Elixir.








"The Dwelling Of The Philosophers" by Fulcanelli, 1929

By using the dry path, represented by the earthly road followed at first by our traveler, one can successfully but progressively exalt the diffuse and latent virtue, transforming into activity that which was only potential. The operation is completed when, on the surface, appears a shining star, formed of rays emanating from a single center, prototype of the great roses of our gothic cathedrals. A sure sign that the pilgrim has successfully reached the end of his first trip. The dry path, also called the Work of Saturn, rarely translated into iconography as it is described in texts, based upon the use of solid and crystallized materials, the brief way (ars brevis) only requires the help of a crucible and the application of high temperatures. The dry way, the only one which authors reserved without providing any explanation about it, is a joy to the artist as well as a treasure to the alchemist. Nevertheless, contrary to the humid way, whose glass utensils allow for easy control and accurate observation, the dry way cannot enlighten the operator at any time in the process of the Work. So, although the time factor reduced to a minimum constitutes a serious advantage in the practice of the ars brevis, the necessity of high temperatures, on the other hand, presents the serious inconvenience of an absolute uncertainty as to the progress of the operation. Everything happens in the deepest mystery inside the crucible which is carefully sealed, buried at the core of the incandescent coals. It is therefore important to be very experienced and to know the fire’s behavior and power well as one could not find in it, from the beginning to the end the least of indication. All the characteristic reactions of the humid way having been indicated among the classical authors, it is possible for the studious artist to acquire indications precise enough to allow him to undertake his long and difficult work. Here on the contrary, it is without any guide that the traveler, brave to the point of rashness, enters this arid and burnt desert. No road laid out, no clue, no landmark; nothing save the apparent inertia of the earth, of the rock, of the sand. The shiny kaleidoscope if the colored stages does not brighten up his uncertain walk; it is as a blind man that he continues his path, without any other certainty save that of his faith, without any other hope but his confidence in divine mercy.

Joshua
08-23-2017, 12:37 AM
The Oak Ridge National Laboratory (and I :-) disagree and assert that salts can disaggregate metals without reacting in any permanent way with those metals. See introduction of Mixtures of Metals with Molten Salts (1969) by M.A. Brenig: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7

"One also finds in the the literature the statement by Nernst: 'For not a single metal do we know a nonmetallic solvent in which the metal would dissolve without chemical interaction and from which the pure metal could be recovered simply by recrystallization... .' We know today that many such molten-salt solvents do exist."

For example, if gold were corroded by the chlorine ions in molten sodium chloride melt (as happens slowly, I believe), it would not necessarily form a permanent, stable gold chloride or trichloride on the surface of the gold, and the sodium would tend to attract the chlorine ions back into the melt more strongly than the gold could hold onto them, right? If gold, being particularly and unusually non-reactive, dissolves in a salt, it would stand to reason that the ionic components of the salt would probably be much more strongly attracted to each other than attracted to the unreactive gold, preventing the formation of lasting bonds. Does that make sense?

Schmuldvich
08-23-2017, 12:59 AM
The Oak Ridge National Laboratory (and I :-) disagree and assert that salts can disaggregate metals without reacting in any permanent way with those metals. See introduction of Mixtures of Metals with Molten Salts (1969) by M.A. Brenig: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7

"One also finds in the the literature the statement by Nernst: 'For not a single metal do we know a nonmetallic solvent in which the metal would dissolve without chemical interaction and from which the pure metal could be recovered simply by recrystallization... .' We know today that many such molten-salt solvents do exist."
Are you familiar with our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent?

Only our Universal Solvent can open a metal, release its seed, dissolve the metal like ice in hot water, and it (our Universal Solvent) remain completely unchanged.

...The body of gold is dissolved ("disaggragated") while its seed floats on top of our Menstruum a.k.a. our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent.


If you know of ANYTHING that fits this description, please let me know! (All of these corrosives you hypothesize about are changed while the gold interacts with the corrosive menstruum/salt, nor do these corrosives properly and fully extract the seed of gold--if you have any proof otherwise please share!).


Did you read the abstract of what you just posted?


https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7


The metal may retain, to some degree, its metallic properties in the solution, or it may lose them through strong interaction with the salt solvent. The alkali-metal systems are typical examples of the former type, while solutions of cadmium or bismuth represent the second.

Colored metal "fogs" were recognized by various investigators as one important cause of low current yield in the electrolysis of molten salts. Various theories ranging from colloidal suspensions to "subhalides" were proposed to explain the observations.

Facts will be presented which demonstrate that the variety of true solutions of metals in fused salts is considerable. This includes, at one extreme, dissolution with relatively little solvent interaction, which might be described by the concept of electrons substituted for anions in cavities, or that of solvated metallic electrons. At the other extreme, dissolution with chemical reaction between solvent and solute occurs, as in the formation of "subhalides," where unusually low ionic valence states of the metallic element are formed.

They are somewhat similar to solutions of metals in liquid ammonia and similar solvents, but are distinguished from these largely by the ionic nature of the solvent (the salt), which, it is to be especially noted, usually contains one of the constituents of the metal which it dissolves, namely the cation.

black
08-23-2017, 01:20 AM
ello Mr. Schmuldvich


Our Universal Solvent is the only substance that will successfully open gold.


From the above statement, are you suggesting that Our Universal Solvent (Alkahest)
will open gold = Au.

Luxus
08-23-2017, 01:30 AM
I wonder about Fulcanelli...I never was attracted to his work personally.

The wet way is the same as the dry way minus the first step.

JDP
08-23-2017, 01:31 AM
The Oak Ridge National Laboratory (and I :-) disagree and assert that salts can disaggregate metals without reacting in any permanent way with those metals. See introduction of Mixtures of Metals with Molten Salts (1969) by M.A. Brenig: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7

"One also finds in the the literature the statement by Nernst: 'For not a single metal do we know a nonmetallic solvent in which the metal would dissolve without chemical interaction and from which the pure metal could be recovered simply by recrystallization... .' We know today that many such molten-salt solvents do exist."

For example, if gold were corroded by the chlorine ions in molten sodium chloride melt (as happens slowly, I believe), it would not necessarily form a permanent, stable gold chloride or trichloride on the surface of the gold, and the sodium would tend to attract the chlorine ions back into the melt more strongly than the gold could hold onto them, right? If gold, being particularly and unusually non-reactive, dissolves in a salt, it would stand to reason that the ionic components of the salt would probably be much more strongly attracted to each other than attracted to the unreactive gold, preventing the formation of lasting bonds. Does that make sense?

Correct, but the key word here is "permanent". There is always some sort of interaction between the metal and the solvent, whether it is a solid solvent (in a hot or molten state) or a liquid one at normal room temperature, but most of the time they will form only an APPARENTLY "permanent" union (which is only really an illusion, since there is always a way of separating the solvent from the solute.) Sometimes the union will not be apparently "permanent" and the metal and the solvent will be left on their own after the interaction (this is the type that you are interested in.) But NEITHER one of them will result in making the Stone. In the first case because the (common/ordinary/vulgar) solvent is NEVER TRULY PERMANENTLY ASSIMILATED TO THE DISSOLVED METAL and can always be separated from each other, and in the second case because there isn't even a stable union of any kind between the solvent and the dissolved metal. In order to make the Stone, the secret solvent needed for the job HAS TO PERMANENTLY JOIN THE SO-CALLED METALLIC SULFUR DISSOLVED IN IT (and I mean truly, so that once they join there is no way of effecting any separation between them and they form a whole new body.) Without this secret solvent and its TRUE PERMANENT UNION with the dissolved metallic matter there is NO PHILOSOPHERS' STONE, because the secret solvent itself makes up a very important part of the Stone's very own substance. It is therefore useless to try to make the Stone without this secret solvent. The most you can achieve with some other solvents (solid or liquid) are some "particular" processes for directly (i.e. without making a true alchemical "tincture") making silver or gold, but this is not really "alchemy", but rather "transmutational chymistry" (notice the archaic spelling: not "chemistry", like the ordinary one known and practiced today, which keeps denying that transmutation via "chemical" reactions is possible, but the one known and practiced by many investigators in the 16th-18th centuries, which itself was derived from the techniques of the medieval "puffers/multipliers".)

Joshua
08-23-2017, 01:37 AM
Are you familiar with our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent?

Only our Universal Solvent can open a metal, release its seed, dissolve the metal like ice in hot water, and it (our Universal Solvent) remain completely unchanged.

...The body of gold is dissolved ("disaggragated") while its seed floats on top of our Menstruum a.k.a. our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent.


If you know of ANYTHING that fits this description, please let me know! (All of these corrosives you hypothesize about are changed while the gold interacts with the corrosive menstruum/salt, nor do these corrosives properly and fully extract the seed of gold--if you have any proof otherwise please share!).


Did you read the abstract of what you just posted?


https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7

I am not familiar with YOUR alkahest. What is it so that I may answer? Mercury (Hg) can open gold if you work long enough, right? Can you not even volatilize some gold "over the helm" by repeatedly distilling mercury from powdered gold? Does the mercury change or react with the gold? But we are talking about salts. Oak Ridge Labs indicate that molten salts can act as solvents for metals without fully reacting with them to form real compounds. They dissolve but stay what they are and don't react. That sounds like what you are asking for, yes?

Joshua
08-23-2017, 01:47 AM
JDP, I doubt that the gold and it's solvent are permanently assimilated. I bet I could separate it somehow unless the atoms of the solvent literally atomically fuse together with the gold into a 100% pure new element. Do you claim that gold undergoes nuclear fusion as it is alchemically dissolved? Doesn't the solvent and the final gold form have different phase change points?

JDP
08-23-2017, 01:49 AM
Yeah. I would agree with you. I was talking generally about the philosopher's stone. I provisionally hold that alchemy is the art and science of creating a philosopher's stone which can transmute into gold and this transmutation is not effected but by highly disaggregated gold. It may be that David Hudson is correct when he claims his evidence shows that gold is the only element which can form an entangled/Bose-Einstein condensate at room temp (and body temp) and above. Metallic gold goes through the colors as it is disaggregated or "opened" based on different particle size/shapes interacting with light.

It appears that alchemists through the centuries have used rather a lot of ways to disaggregate gold to a transmuting form which would tinge other metals. I mean EVERY SINGLE philosopher's stone, as far as I know, can or does feature dissolving/disaggregating gold... one of the HARDEST metals to dissolve!!! If it is the philosopher's stone, it MUST disaggregate gold, yes?

You should read the works of the 16th century lawyer Gaston "Claveus" DuClo. He made claims regarding the preparation of very fine calxes of gold, which would then be (supposedly) permanently joined with "purged" mercury in order to make the Stone. Needless to say, all those (usually known as "mercurialists") who have attempted to literally follow such ideas have ended up failing miserably in making the Stone. Either "Claveus" was himself self-deluded and really thought such amalgamation processes could actually work, or he maliciously on purpose misled a bunch of people for several centuries into wasting their time and money with such trials. Metallic mercury simply will NOT permanently join with gold or any other metal, no matter how "subtle" a calx you make of them, or how much you "purge" the metallic mercury. It's just not going to happen. The result is always the same: common amalgams. The mercury and the dissolved metal can always be separated in the end. No "permanent" union happens between the solvent ("purged" mercury in this case) and the solute (very finely divided gold in this case.) It's a total dead-end.

JDP
08-23-2017, 01:56 AM
JDP, I doubt that the gold and it's solvent are permanently assimilated. I bet I could separate it somehow unless the atoms of the solvent literally atomically fuse together with the gold into a 100% pure new element. Do you claim that gold undergoes nuclear fusion as it is alchemically dissolved? Doesn't the solvent and the final gold form have different phase change points?

That's what the alchemists themselves say. This subject of the difference between the secret solvent of alchemy and other solvents is a very common one in the literature. Read Thomas Norton, Antonio De Abbatia, Lucas Rodargirus, Weidenfeld, etc. They keep on pointing out how common solvents, like "aqua fortis", can always be separated from the metals they dissolve, while the secret solvent of alchemy does not separate from the metallic matter it dissolves. It is from this truly permanent union that the Stone is generated.

What you are talking about are the speculations/theories about matter of modern physics and ordinary chemistry. If you believe in them, then you must also NOT believe that transmutation by means of "chemical" reactions is possible. Yet you seem to believe that finely divided gold can somehow transmute other metals into gold.

Joshua
08-23-2017, 02:04 AM
JDP, so, metallic gold will not be dissolved smaller and smaller through its colors to white over a long time by Hg mercury? We know that gold can have any color depending on its particle size and we know that warm mercury breaks down gold over time, right? Which color does it stop at and what prevents the mercury from physically dissolving the gold even further given greater reaction time? Why would alchemists call it mercury if it was not? Were they sadistic and hoping to poison people?

Don't speculate on what I have to believe in. :-)

JDP
08-23-2017, 02:27 AM
JDP, so, metallic gold will not be dissolved smaller and smaller through its colors to white over a long time by Hg mercury? We know that gold can have any color depending on its particle size and we know that warm mercury breaks down gold over time, right? Which color does it stop at and what prevents the mercury from physically dissolving the gold even further given greater reaction time?

You can read the private laboratory notebooks of George Starkey (they have been transcribed and translated by William R. Newman and Lawrence M. Principe) and see for yourself that he spent years making amalgams of "animated" mercury with gold and trying to "cook" them into the Stone only to keep failing over and over.


Don't speculate on what I have to believe in. :-)

Just the logical conclusions of what you say. You doubt that a solvent and solute can truly be permanently joined with each other, based on the theories of physics and ordinary chemistry, yet you seem to believe that finely divided gold can achieve transmutations, which those very same theories deny is possible short of having an "atom smasher". Go figure.

black
08-23-2017, 03:35 AM
Are you familiar with our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent?

Only our Universal Solvent can open a metal, release its seed, dissolve the metal like ice in hot water, and it (our Universal Solvent) remain completely unchanged.

...The body of gold is dissolved ("disaggragated") while its seed floats on top of our Menstruum a.k.a. our Alkahest a.k.a. our Universal Solvent.


If you know of ANYTHING that fits this description, please let me know! (All of these corrosives you hypothesize about are changed while the gold interacts with the corrosive menstruum/salt, nor do these corrosives properly and fully extract the seed of gold--if you have any proof otherwise please share!).


Did you read the abstract of what you just posted?


https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077306762;view=1up;seq=7

Hello Mr. Schmuldvich


From the above, are you suggesting that Our Universal Solvent (Alkahest)
will open gold = Au.

Joshua
08-23-2017, 03:54 AM
You can read the private laboratory notebooks of George Starkey (they have been transcribed and translated by William R. Newman and Lawrence M. Principe) and see for yourself that he spent years making amalgams of "animated" mercury with gold and trying to "cook" them into the Stone only to keep failing over and over.



Just the logical conclusions of what you say. You doubt that a solvent and solute can truly be permanently joined with each other, based on the theories of physics and ordinary chemistry, yet you seem to believe that finely divided gold can achieve transmutations, which those very same theories deny is possible short of having an "atom smasher". Go figure.

So, how far can Hg mercury dissolve gold? What particle size/color of gold does the reaction always stop at and why? How does the mercury keep from dissolving the gold even more? What is the form of gold like that cannot be dissolved by mercury any further!!? And how have the electron shells of the gold atoms changed to prevent further reaction with mercury? What if it was hot, dry (not wet), naturally monatomic, mercury gas dissolving the gold instead of liquid mercury? Does the gold just stop dissolving in that case also and create a similar non-reactive form? What form of gold could resist hot mercury vapor? What if I just ground gold powder with mortar and pestle for a philosophical year using my mighty arms, would the gold stop being ground smaller and smaller after a certain size (despite the mightiness) or would it eventually turn into a red, distillable liquid?

Schmuldvich
08-23-2017, 04:52 AM
Hello Mr. Schmuldvich


From the above, are you suggesting that Our Universal Solvent (Alkahest)
will open gold = Au.
YES SIR!!

I could post quotes all day but this is the most clear.


From "How To Philosophically Prepare The Universal Medicine" by Urbigerus, 1690...




http://i.imgur.com/XxRXGFQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/jHAi58k.png
http://i.imgur.com/SVflwvN.png

Joshua
08-23-2017, 05:32 AM
Can gold calx be dissolved and joined permanently with phosphoric acid to make a red fusible stone that has the gold and phosphate in a form together that is not easily separated?

black
08-23-2017, 05:36 AM
YES SIR!!

I could post quotes all day but this is the most clear.


From "How To Philosophically Prepare The Universal Medicine" by Urbigerus, 1690...




http://i.imgur.com/XxRXGFQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/jHAi58k.png
http://i.imgur.com/SVflwvN.png

Yes this is a very beautiful and open piece by Urbigerus and there are
many, many more just like it.

But .... do you feel these authors may be writing Philosophically.

It appears there are a few Mercury's.

Perhaps there may be a few different Gold's ?

Do you think this might be a possibility ???

Schmuldvich
08-23-2017, 06:24 AM
Yes this is a very beautiful and open piece by Urbigerus and there are many, many more just like it.

But .... do you feel these authors may be writing Philosophically.

It appears there are a few Mercury's.

Perhaps there may be a few different Gold's ?

Do you think this might be a possibility ???

To the best of my knowledge Urbigerus is a pseudonym (sometimes 'Baro Urbigerus'), most probably a collective Brotherhood of individuals.

There are indeed a few "Mercury's" in our Art. The way I like to explain it clearly is that Mercury essentially means "it".

Just as there exists mercury, Mercury, Mercury of the Sages, Philosophical Mercury, Sophic Mercury, etc. there in my opinion exists many kinds of gold too, i.e. gold, vulgar gold, Gold, Philosophic Gold, Sol, etc. It depends on context to understand what a particular author is referring to when speaking of "gold". Just like with all Alchemical texts, not all authors are congruent with their writing. Where one may refer to elemental gold as Sol, another author may be referring to our Gold as Sol. It depends on the author and it depends on the treatise. The best way to comprehend the meaning of a particular word is in context...which usually means reading the entire text in question.

In this particular example, being that the title is "How To Philosophically Prepare The Universal Medicine", we are from the start encouraged to read the full text in question Philosophically and assume the author is writing with veiled speech (if you read any of Urbigerus' other treatises, you will see that most writings by this author are extraordinary esoteric and written with veiled tongue). The author could be talking about elemental gold (Au) or Sol (our Gold) here.

My understanding of this treatise leads me to comprehend the word "gold" in Chapter III as elemental gold (Au) due to my comprehension of other texts, which could absolutely be wrong. Until I successfully produce the Philosopher's Stone I will never know definitively. Like most of Urbirgerus' writings, we can interpret this in more than one way and see that elemental gold (Au) is not the only thing this author was talking about!

The first paragraph of this selected chapter appears to use a lot of double-speech, something that Fulcanelli was particularly skilled at, as well as George Ripley. They say one thing then elucidate more on their first sentence while speaking of an entire another (parallel...ly understood) Process of our Art. It's quite ingenious, actually. Using this type of double-speech gives us the unique ability to read one sentence, or paragraph, and Understand it in two (or three!) different ways...

For example, the very first sentence...


"If one intends to prepare and multiply the metallic seed in the most natural, secret, philosophical, and profitable manner, it must be sought in its Mother, still undetermined and surrounded by the universal menstruum, or also when it has already been separated from it, or when it is about to turn to the mineral kingdom"

We can interpret this as speaking of the following Processes:


1) Multiplication
2) Short Way
3) Extraction of the seed of elemental Gold (Au)


What is "it's" Mother? If we have read "The Emerald Tablet", we know that its Mother is the Moon, right! So here we have just pieced together another Key used in this author's double-speech.

Ok, so, in the most profitable manner we can read the sentence as explaining the use of elemental gold (Au) in our Art, "preparing" it for later Processes. We also see a hint of the "Short Way" which uses the Moon (our Moon, rightfully prepared yet "still undetermined") in a most secret Process in conjunction with the "metallic seed" to produce a most natural abbreviation of our Great Work, while also understanding that in a philosophical manner we can seek and extract our Sol in its Mother (our Moon) if it is "surrounded by the universal menstruum" when it is "about to turn to the mineral kingdom". Just like all of Urbigerus' writings, this paragraph is DENSE WITH WISDOM!

Going on to the next sentence would just be chizzeling away at the iceburg that is this wonderful treatise...You get the point and can see where I'm coming from. Hopefully this gives you more insight into how to read Alchemical texts...or you can just go ahead and think I'm crazy! :o

Normally I would not type out something like this and simply leave it to interpretation of the reader, but I guess you caught me on a good day! ;)

This is how I read Alchemical Texts. One cannot merely read the words at face-value.

theFool
08-23-2017, 06:44 AM
Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?

Some ideas:

- ammonium chloride (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3829-Ammonium-Chloride-can-make-Calx-of-Gold). This link I give you is the only reference on this method. I've done it only 2-3 times so if you try to replicate it, share the details; they would be useful to elucidate the method more.

- Molten NaCl and gold. There are references on this method in Bartlet's book "the way of the crucible". It requires many iterations to give the purple colloid.

- Untested method: amalgamate gold with aluminum and dissolve the aluminum in NaOH (sort of "Raney gold").

- Agricola has a method of heating deer's antlers together with laminated gold in closed vessels. He describes it in his book about gold. Maybe heating NH4Cl with gold leaves gives interesting results.

But, really, why do you want to use non-ionic methods to prepare a fine calx? There are other, more explored means to do it. What do you think are their differences?


I know this is the place to ask! Welcomed!

Joshua
08-23-2017, 07:23 AM
Some ideas:

- ammonium chloride (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3829-Ammonium-Chloride-can-make-Calx-of-Gold). This link I give you is the only reference on this method. I've done it only 2-3 times so if you try to replicate it, share the details; they would be useful to elucidate the method more.

- Molten NaCl and gold. There are references on this method in Bartlet's book "the way of the crucible". It requires many iterations to give the purple colloid.

- Untested method: amalgamate gold with aluminum and dissolve the aluminum in NaOH (sort of "Raney gold").

- Agricola has a method of heating deer's antlers together with laminated gold in closed vessels. He describes it in his book about gold. Maybe heating NH4Cl with gold leaves gives interesting results.

But, really, why do you want to use non-ionic methods to prepare a fine calx? There are other, more explored means to do it. What do you think are their differences?

Welcomed!

Ammonium chloride is cool. They say nitric acid with ammonium chloride will lift up gold nicely if you heat it a little harder at the end of the second boildown. Molten NaCl seems like it might benefit from adding an oxidizer. Maybe sodium peroxide? Aqueous NaCl and H2O2 works. Does sulfur dissolve in molten NaCl? I was just thinking today of inquarting gold with aluminum, but I didn't think it would dissolve gold very far... maybe if I used a much larger excess like 100 mols Al to 1 mol Au and cooked for a long enough time to fully separate and spread the gold atoms out equally in the melt. Why salts? I am just curious about the salts and how far they can disaggregate gold.

abdo
08-23-2017, 07:35 AM
Say I wanted to dissolve gold in molten salt or salts that would continually corrode and disaggregate the gold down to some minimum size but would not actually form compounds or ligands with the gold itself... what water-soluble salts would I want to explore?
If you amalgam gold and silver 1:4 then add nitric acid yo will get gold precipitated (shishna). You can retrieve silver from this solution by diluting it with fresh water and add copper plate to it. This way you hit 2 birds with one stone by reducing gold to very tiny size and silver as well.
Another method by electrolysis to get tiny gold (gold plating) or gold hydroxide depend on the method used.
I wish those 2 methods satisfy you.

JDP
08-23-2017, 07:37 AM
So, how far can Hg mercury dissolve gold? What particle size/color of gold does the reaction always stop at and why? How does the mercury keep from dissolving the gold even more? What is the form of gold like that cannot be dissolved by mercury any further!!? And how have the electron shells of the gold atoms changed to prevent further reaction with mercury? What if it was hot, dry (not wet), naturally monatomic, mercury gas dissolving the gold instead of liquid mercury? Does the gold just stop dissolving in that case also and create a similar non-reactive form? What form of gold could resist hot mercury vapor? What if I just ground gold powder with mortar and pestle for a philosophical year using my mighty arms, would the gold stop being ground smaller and smaller after a certain size (despite the mightiness) or would it eventually turn into a red, distillable liquid?

Which part of "everyone, from Starkey to Newton, who spent years manipulating mercury and gold never succeeded in making the Stone" is it that you are having trouble understanding? Theories and speculations about "electron shells" hardly matter, what matters is the empirical fact that IT DOES NOT WORK. Whether you "animate" or "purge" the mercury a la "Claveus" or a la Suchten/Philalethes, the end result is that the mercury always remains the same metallic mercury it always was, and all that it forms with other metals are just amalgams, never anything remotely like the Stone. The whole "mercurialist" premise is based on a mistaken and rather literal view of the old Aristotelian theories of metallogenesis, where nature was supposedly "generating" metals out of two "exhalations", one "dry and smoky" and the other "humid and vaporous" (generally called "sulphur" and "mercury" by the alchemists.) These "mercurialist" fellows quite literally understood "mercury" as metallic mercury. Seeing that mercury "as is" did not generate the Stone when amalgamated with gold (as everyone knows), these folks then started inventing all sorts of manipulations designed to supposedly satisfy their theory that there was some sort of "feces" or "impurities" that supposedly prevented the mercury from performing a radical solution of gold and that therefore they had to be "removed" from the mercury first. But in the end it all failed. It is the history of a MISTAKE, one that ended up causing a lot of trouble & expenditure for all unwary, uncritical and inexperienced people who swallowed these claims hook, line and sinker. Mercury in its metallic state, no matter how prepared or manipulated, IS NOT THE SECRET SOLVENT OF ALCHEMY. It will NEVER truly "coagulate" with gold or any other metal it dissolves into a wholly new substance, indivisible and different from both "parent" substances (viz. the Stone.)

theFool
08-23-2017, 07:44 AM
They say nitric acid with ammonium chloride will lift up gold nicely if you heat it a little harder at the end of the second boildown. Those two form a sort of Aqua Regia when you mix them together. Probably the dissolution can be attributed to acid produced, not non-ionic. If you mean heating KNO3 with NH4Cl, it seems that again, this produces an acid:
https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/alchemy-ancient-chemistry/aqua-regia-fulminating-gold/



Aqueous NaCl and H2O2 works. Didn't know that. It gives purple colloid?



I am just curious about the salts and how far they can disaggregate gold. I haven't seen them going further than the purple colloid but if they can do that, why not, they could probably do more. In Agricola's book there is mentioning of a red calx produced by the deer antlers method. A benefit of those methods could be the avoidance of oxidizing the Au nanoparticles.

black
08-23-2017, 07:54 AM
To the best of my knowledge Urbigerus is a pseudonym (sometimes 'Baro Urbigerus'), most probably a collective Brotherhood of individuals.

There are indeed a few "Mercury's" in our Art. The way I like to explain it clearly is that Mercury essentially means "it".

Just as there exists mercury, Mercury, Mercury of the Sages, Philosophical Mercury, Sophic Mercury, etc. there in my opinion exists many kinds of gold too, i.e. gold, vulgar gold, Gold, Philosophic Gold, Sol, etc. It depends on context to understand what a particular author is referring to when speaking of "gold". Just like with all Alchemical texts, not all authors are congruent with their writing. Where one may refer to elemental gold as Sol, another author may be referring to our Gold as Sol. It depends on the author and it depends on the treatise. The best way to comprehend the meaning of a particular word is in context...which usually means reading the entire text in question.

In this particular example, being that the title is "How To Philosophically Prepare The Universal Medicine", we are from the start encouraged to read the full text in question Philosophically and assume the author is writing with veiled speech (if you read any of Urbigerus' other treatises, you will see that most writings by this author are extraordinary esoteric and written with veiled tongue). The author could be talking about elemental gold (Au) or Sol (our Gold) here.

My understanding of this treatise leads me to comprehend the word "gold" in Chapter III as elemental gold (Au) due to my comprehension of other texts, which could absolutely be wrong. Until I successfully produce the Philosopher's Stone I will never know definitively. Like most of Urbirgerus' writings, we can interpret this in more than one way and see that elemental gold (Au) is not the only thing this author was talking about!

The first paragraph of this selected chapter appears to use a lot of double-speech, something that Fulcanelli was particularly skilled at, as well as George Ripley. They say one thing then elucidate more on their first sentence while speaking of an entire another (parallel...ly understood) Process of our Art. It's quite ingenious, actually. Using this type of double-speech gives us the unique ability to read one sentence, or paragraph, and Understand it in two (or three!) different ways...

For example, the very first sentence...


"If one intends to prepare and multiply the metallic seed in the most natural, secret, philosophical, and profitable manner, it must be sought in its Mother, still undetermined and surrounded by the universal menstruum, or also when it has already been separated from it, or when it is about to turn to the mineral kingdom"

We can interpret this as speaking of the following Processes:


1) Multiplication
2) Short Way
3) Extraction of the seed of elemental Gold (Au)


What is "it's" Mother? If we have read "The Emerald Tablet", we know that its Mother is the Moon, right! So here we have just pieced together another Key used in this author's double-speech.

Ok, so, in the most profitable manner we can read the sentence as explaining the use of elemental gold (Au) in our Art, "preparing" it for later Processes. We also see a hint of the "Short Way" which uses the Moon (our Moon, rightfully prepared yet "still undetermined") in a most secret Process in conjunction with the "metallic seed" to produce a most natural abbreviation of our Great Work, while also understanding that in a philosophical manner we can seek and extract our Sol in its Mother (our Moon) if it is "surrounded by the universal menstruum" when it is "about to turn to the mineral kingdom". Just like all of Urbigerus' writings, this paragraph is DENSE WITH WISDOM!

Going on to the next sentence would just be chizzeling away at the iceburg that is this wonderful treatise...You get the point and can see where I'm coming from. Hopefully this gives you more insight into how to read Alchemical texts...or you can just go ahead and think I'm crazy! :o

Normally I would not type out something like this and simply leave it to interpretation of the reader, but I guess you caught me on a good day! ;)

This is how I read Alchemical Texts. One cannot merely read the words at face-value.

Thank you for your very open and in depth interpretation of this piece, it has
made a few points very clear to me.

Perhaps it will assist others in the many ways of reading and understanding the
rich volumes that are available to us.

Axismundi000
08-23-2017, 10:46 AM
For the sake of practical clarity I have found that if you dry distil a mixture of ammonium chloride and potassium nitrate you will get Aqua Regia which dissolves gold and is a dangerous powerful acid.

2parts KNO3 + 1Part NH4Cl dry distil => (HNO3 + 3HCl)

I'm not a chemist so I cannot say if this is the optimum mix to get the highest Aqua Regia yield.

Aqua Regia is not the Universal Mercury it is an acid compound that dissolves gold.

I first read about this in Real Alchemy by Bartlett, clarity is important about actual hazardous materials I feel, by all means go back to waxing lyrical and quoting from more allegorical Alchemy texts here.

JDP
08-23-2017, 11:43 AM
For the sake of practical clarity I have found that if you dry distil a mixture of ammonium chloride and potassium nitrate you will get Aqua Regia which dissolves gold and is a dangerous powerful acid.

2parts KNO3 + 1Part NH4Cl dry distil => (HNO3 + 3HCl)

I'm not a chemist so I cannot say if this is the optimum mix to get the highest Aqua Regia yield.

Aqua Regia is not the Universal Mercury it is an acid compound that dissolves gold.

I first read about this in Real Alchemy by Bartlett, clarity is important about actual hazardous materials I feel, by all means go back to waxing lyrical and quoting from more allegorical Alchemy texts here.

This operation was first clearly described in the anonymous commentaries to Basil Valentine's "12 Keys", and is a potentially violent reaction, it might shatter the vessels it is being carried in, so the old-timers often interposed between the other two ingredients a very stable substance that is not attacked by either one of them, in order to slow down the speed of the reaction. Their favorite substance for this role of intermediary was powdered sand/silica.

Axismundi000
08-23-2017, 04:37 PM
Thanks for the tip JDP, I wonder why when I tried this no violent reaction occurred, maybe I got the mix wrong.

Joshua
08-23-2017, 05:58 PM
Those two form a sort of Aqua Regia when you mix them together. Probably the dissolution can be attributed to acid produced, not non-ionic. If you mean heating KNO3 with NH4Cl, it seems that again, this produces an acid:
https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/alchemy-ancient-chemistry/aqua-regia-fulminating-gold/

Didn't know that. It gives purple colloid?

I haven't seen them going further than the purple colloid but if they can do that, why not, they could probably do more. In Agricola's book there is mentioning of a red calx produced by the deer antlers method. A benefit of those methods could be the avoidance of oxidizing the Au nanoparticles.

NaCl and h2o2 dissolves gold slower and more completely than HCl and h2o2. Na2 does not exit the reaction like the H2 so the dissolving reaction can continue and continue as long as there is excess peroxide or until all the gold drops out of the solution as white precipitate or is volatilized.

Joshua
08-23-2017, 07:59 PM
JDP, so you say Hg mercury does not work and can only dissolve gold to a point. Can you answer some questions regarding this? How far does mercury dissolve gold? What color/particle size does it stop at and why? What prevents the mercury from further disaggregating the gold? Is a white or red form of gold produced that cannot be further dissolved by mercury? What form of gold cannot be dissolved further by Hg or Hg vapor? Does 100:1 Hg/Au dissolve the gold smaller or more completely than a 1:10, 1:1 or 3:1 Hg/Au ratio? When gold is distilled with Hg mercury and it goes over the helm with it, it must get pretty small to be volatile, right? Did Starkey, et al. volatilize their gold or just cook without volatilizing?

Can mercury be disaggregated like gold can be "opened"? Must that occur first? I did a Hg anode/ iron cathode in strong aqueous NaOH and using low voltage pulsed dc (from a phone charger circuit), it created a white precip from the anode (black metal sediment if the current is too high) which I think was mercury hydroxide due to its ephemeral nature. Mercury hydroxide is all unstable. The white precipitate gradually disappears as it forms and a distinct and very dense, clear liquid layer, very diffractively different, beneath the aqueous solution is created. Would clear liquid mercury allotrope work better than metallic mercury or mercury vapor?

JDP
08-23-2017, 11:55 PM
JDP, so you say Hg mercury does not work and can only dissolve gold to a point. Can you answer some questions regarding this? How far does mercury dissolve gold? What color/particle size does it stop at and why? What prevents the mercury from further disaggregating the gold? Is a white or red form of gold produced that cannot be further dissolved by mercury? What form of gold cannot be dissolved further by Hg or Hg vapor? Does 100:1 Hg/Au dissolve the gold smaller or more completely than a 1:10, 1:1 or 3:1 Hg/Au ratio? When gold is distilled with Hg mercury and it goes over the helm with it, it must get pretty small to be volatile, right? Did Starkey, et al, volatilize their gold or just cook without volatilizing?

Can mercury be disaggregated like gold can be "opened"? Must that occur first? I did a Hg anode/ iron cathode in strong NaOH and using low voltage pulsed dc (from a phone charger circuit), it created a white precip from the anode (black metal sediment if current is too high) which I think was mercury hydroxide due to its ephemeral nature. Mercury hydroxide is all unstable. The white precipitate gradually disappears and a distinct heavy, clear liquid sub-aqueous layer is created. Would clear liquid mercury allotrope work better than metallic mercury or mercury vapor?

Starkey et al. "purged" or "animated" their mercury first (through various methods, but one of the most popular ones was through regulus of antimony) and then used it to dissolve gold and "cook" this amalgam into the Stone. Needless to say, nobody succeeded in accomplishing such a thing.

theFool
08-24-2017, 05:10 PM
NaCl and h2o2 dissolves gold slower and more completely than HCl and h2o2. Na2 does not exit the reaction like the H2 so the dissolving reaction can continue and continue as long as there is excess peroxide or until all the gold drops out of the solution as white precipitate or is volatilized. This seems nice information, thanks for sharing. Do you happen to know if the white precipitate that drops out of solution is soluble in acids (HCl, A.R.)?

When working in the past with a HCl/H2O2 method of dissagregating the gold I've seen two kinds of white precipitates forming, depending on how far you go in the process. One of them is soluble acids (vinegar, HNO3, HCl). Further work on this leads to another white precipitate that is insoluble in any kind of acid (even A.R.).

Joshua
08-24-2017, 08:41 PM
This seems nice information, thanks for sharing. Do you happen to know if the white precipitate that drops out of solution is soluble in acids (HCl, A.R.)?

When working in the past with a HCl/H2O2 method of dissagregating the gold I've seen two kinds of white precipitates forming, depending on how far you go in the process. One of them is soluble acids (vinegar, HNO3, HCl). Further work on this leads to another white precipitate that is insoluble in any kind of acid (even A.R.).

Sorry, unfortunately, I did not test that white precipitate futher in acids.

theFool
08-24-2017, 10:30 PM
Sorry, unfortunately, I did not test that white precipitate futher in acids.Have you ever observed that if gold chloride is prepared by dissolving colloidal gold in acid, it does not behave like "normal" gold chloride does (e,g. negative stannous chloride test, not precipitateable by SO2)? Isn't this peculiar. After all, both of them are gold chlorides.

Joshua
08-24-2017, 11:56 PM
Have you ever observed that if gold chloride is prepared by dissolving colloidal gold in acid, it does not behave like "normal" gold chloride does (e,g. negative stannous chloride test, not precipitateable by SO2)? Isn't this peculiar. After all, both of them are gold chlorides.

I never noticed it. Nice observation! Would one expect to make gold that precipitates from water from gold that does not? Kind of makes sense. They say the more nitric acid you use in aqua regia, the less gold you can recover.