PDA

View Full Version : A Golden Meteor! Duck!



Joshua
08-24-2017, 01:36 AM
What would happen if a substantial golden meteorite fell fast and obliquely through the atmosphere but never reached the ground? How much metal has fallen and been deposited into the atmosphere in this extreme way? Does it matter?

Illen A. Cluf
08-24-2017, 02:31 AM
What would happen if a substantial golden meteorite fell fast and obliquely through the atmosphere but never reached the ground? How much metal has fallen and been deposited into the atmosphere in this extreme way? Does it matter?

You should read Zacharia Sitchen. He translated numerous Babylonian stone texts and they told a story a couple hundred thousand years ago of a Planet that circles the Sun in a long elliptical orbit. The atmosphere was dying, and they had to seed it with pure gold particles to restore it. They chose Earth and began mining it (in Africa mostly). This work became boring and wearisome, so they played around with the DNA of some of the earth animals and made a crude "man" to do the dirty work. Eventually these Anunnaki "gods" (as the men saw them) interbred with these fundamental men and eventually arose homo sapien sapiens. All our current religions and technology allegedly comes from these visitations. There's a recent book written about it called "Slave Species of the Gods: The Secret History of the Anunnaki". It's all legend bt Sitchen believed this to be the true history of mankind. At the least, it makes for good science fiction.

Dragon's Tail
08-24-2017, 05:00 AM
I remember reading something about gold veins being created through weathering particulate gold from the surface into creeks that were covered over and eventually fused into veins. Possible sites for this kind of thing is the substrata is apparently something prospectors look for.

I don't know about the veins, but you can actually sometimes see where a salt dome will be by studying topographical maps, because they make the pattern of water ripples on the earth. That's something I learned studying petroleum engineering when I started in the oilfield.

Joshua
08-24-2017, 06:13 AM
Science says that ALL the gold (and iron/nickel and everything else) fell onto our planet due to gravity. Does all the gold and other metals that have been disaggregated into the air by rapid atmospheric transversal quickly drop out of the air? What form are they in? If a meteorite evenly spreads 200 micrograms of the whitest hot gold into 200 miles of atmosphere in a millisecond, what form does the gold end up in and what happens to it? Is it Au2? Au6? Is Au1 stable in air? Is Au2 small enough to be perpetually suspended in the air? Is there a bunch of the tiniest metal particles that have remained dissolved in our atmosphere for billions of years or has all the falling metal completely fallen? What do you think? Have you ever thought of that?

JDP
08-24-2017, 07:41 AM
Science says that ALL the gold (and iron/nickel and everything else) fell onto our planet due to gravity.

And "science" in this case is quite mistaken. I happen to have small quantities of gold that most certainly did NOT come from anywhere in "outer space" but from my crucibles, flasks, beakers and test tubes. Before the pertinent "chymical" operations were performed, these gold morsels were in fact not "gold" at all but silver. How do you like them (golden) apples!

Dragon's Tail
08-24-2017, 12:48 PM
Joshua, I would urge you to be careful quoting what "scientists say." Everyone should be a little more cautious in fact with that line. Real scientists constantly scrutinize their own work and test it over and over and over, as well as finding new ways to test other theories. When the news or some other media outlet wants to prop up a story of scientific discovery, they often go way to far with all this "proof" nonsense. Remember, they're trying to get clicks and sell papers, that's how they make money.

Everything on Earth came from the dust of dead stars, and as JDP pointed out, other processes that aren't understood or accepted by the status quo. Rest assured, there's probably somebody somewhere investigating new theories on any topic, or trying to topple old ones.

During the eclipse, for instance, a bunch of my astronomy buddies were participating in a nationwide experiment to verify the curvature of light proposed by relativity. Do you realize that experiment has only been done at one time before (that I was informed of)? It's also riddled with mystery and speculation. What exactly happened to all those photo plates? How did the heat of the daytime sun affect the scopes and the images? There's further about the chemical plates themselves, and at what accuracy they could be trusted.

The funny thing is, these arguments will continue with modern equipment, too. A high-quality CCD astro-can is good, but it's not perfect. Data is being collected and compiled, and it will be averaged. While some would claim that we now have enough data to "prove" Einstein's model of bent light (which is really just an outpour of relativity, which was a natural product of the Maxwell equations, QM was too, but I digress), but don't believe everything you read. There's room in a lot of "theories" for refinement and further testing.

The epistemic nature of "proof" means different things to different people also.

Wow, I didn't mean to get into all of that, only some of it. I said all that so I can say this. Your speculation and questions are good, but I don't believe there is a good answer to most of them. But I will say that I don't believe gold just stays suspended in the air for that long of a timescale. The frequency of meteors means it's possible that there is always some up there, and yes, tiny bits of rare metals are constantly hitting the Earth and stuff on it as dust. Next time you clean your gutters, use the gunk for a sluce, and examine it with a magnet. You will be amazed what you find! Then put the rest of that black wonderous stuff in your garden ;)

Dragon's Tail
08-24-2017, 01:14 PM
Sorry to post twice in a row, but you also may want to look up why elements heavier than iron "can't" be fused in a star. There are theories about fluke reactions that occur during the increasingly chaotic belly of heavy stars, which I happen to side with, but many, many physicists still maintain that it doesn't account for all the heavy metals in the universe. Conversely, if everything came from stardust, then where did all these metals come from? When I look at old novas and nebulae in my telescope, most of what I'm seeing is hydrogen and helium. Maybe better telescopes and spectral analysis will tell us more, someday.

Joshua
08-24-2017, 07:38 PM
I stand happily corrected! Nuclear transmutations certainly do occur. JDP, is your transmuted silver spectroscopically gold? We know silver can be colored gold by a thin sulfide layer and also there is actually a golden-colored silver allotrope that we have to rule out. Can silver be tinged but not transmuted? For example, what if hypothetically there is a particularly red allotrope/sulfur of iron or copper, silver, gold etc. that can dissolve into metallic silver and give it a redder/more golden color? What was the basic cause of your transmutation? JDP, I suspect you have already addressed these things somewhere on this forum, but I don't know where!

I will definitely check out my gutters! I just don't understand how some already small molecule like Au2, or Ag2, or Cu2, could easily turn back into anything big enough to precipitate out of the atmospheric solution. What if they are significantly non-reactive like the heavy noble gasses in our atmosphere? Wouldn't Au2 molecules behave more like a liquid or gas than a dust? If you had an ounce of Au2 molecules in your hand what would it look like and act like? Could it look something like Don's pure gold red liquid?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szll8AhZQnc

I have had some people tell me that there is mostly silver and some copper in these forms in our atmosphere and they can be extracted as a kind of greenish oil and used to make a philosopher's stone. Is that true?

JDP
08-24-2017, 09:57 PM
I stand happily corrected! Nuclear transmutations certainly do occur. JDP, is your transmuted silver spectroscopically gold? We know silver can be colored gold by a thin sulfide layer and also there is actually a golden-colored silver allotrope that we have to rule out. Can silver be tinged but not transmuted? For example, what if hypothetically there is a particularly red allotrope/sulfur of iron or copper, silver, gold etc. that can dissolve into metallic silver and give it a redder/more golden color? What was the basic cause of your transmutation? JDP, I suspect you have already addressed these things somewhere on this forum, but I don't know where!

I don't have a spectroscope, so I can't say anything about that until I get one or take a sample of the "chymical" gold to a lab that has one, but it is certainly NOT any "allotrope", or "colloid", or any mere surface coloration of silver. The artificial gold resists cupellation, dissolves in aqua regia (and NOT in nitric acid alone, not even hot) giving a beautiful golden yellow solution, when the solution is carefully evaporated it yields a golden salt which tends to pick up moisture from the air (if the heat of evaporation is a bit too strong the obtained salt easily decomposes and leaves a purplish calx instead, which easily redissolves in aqua regia or hydrochloric acid forming again the previously decomposed salt), the salt redissolves in distilled water forming the same golden solution, this solution when heated with oxalic acid precipitates the metal as a fine brownish powder... in other words, it has all the standard chemical properties of gold. It sure as heck is not "silver" in any shape or form, but the thing is made from silver (and NO, the silver did NOT contain this "thing" before either; I use .999 and .9999 silver coins and bars for my "chymical" experiments, which when dissolved in nitric acid do not leave any trace of any dark powder behind; the dark gold calx is only produced after the silver is submitted to the pertinent "chymical" operations.)


I will definitely check out my gutters! I just don't understand how some already small molecule like Au2, or Ag2, or Cu2, could easily turn back into anything big enough to precipitate out of the atmospheric solution. What if they are significantly non-reactive like the heavy noble gasses in our atmosphere? Wouldn't Au2 molecules behave more like a liquid or gas than a dust? If you had an ounce of Au2 molecules in your hand what would it look like and act like? Could it look something like Don's pure red gold liquid?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szll8AhZQnc

I have had some people tell me that there is mostly silver and some copper in these forms in our atmosphere and they can be extracted as a kind of greenish oil and used to make a philosopher's stone. Is that true?

Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. If there was any significant amount of any of those metals "floating" around in the air you could simply collect them by placing wide flat glass/ceramic dishes with mercury thinly spread out (to increase its surface area in contact with the metal-laden air) and letting them stand there for a while. Then just distill the mercury off and get your metals almost for free. Poppycock!

Dragon's Tail
08-24-2017, 09:57 PM
I just don't understand how some already small molecule like Au2, or Ag2, or Cu2, could easily turn back into anything big enough to precipitate out of the atmospheric solution.

You're also assuming that ablative destruction is also atomizing the metal. This might be happening to some degree, I'm not sure, but the smaller the piece, the quicker it slows down. As far as gasses, and crystallized ice in the atmosphere. I dunno, you might be onto something, but I've never found gold in the bottom of my air compressor. Even gasses that are heavy, like radon or H2S will sink in the air, collecting in low areas. I'm not saying it can't happen, don't get me wrong, and the little buggers will definitely take their time coming down, so if you collected enough "air," eventually you would find something, but I'd leave the top open and just let the good stuff settle out. There are many wonderful things "swimming" through the air, but eventually, they all find a place on the ground. Except deep space probes.. those generally don't come back, lol.

Joshua
08-24-2017, 10:41 PM
I don't have a spectroscope, so I can't say anything about that until I get one or take a sample of the "chymical" gold to a lab that has one, but it is certainly NOT any "allotrope", or "colloid", or any mere surface coloration of silver. The artificial gold resists cupellation, dissolves in aqua regia (and NOT in nitric acid alone, not even hot) giving a beautiful golden yellow solution, when the solution is carefully evaporated it yields a golden salt which tends to pick up moisture from the air (if the heat of evaporation is a bit too strong the obtained salt easily decomposes and leaves a purplish calx instead, which easily redissolves in aqua regia or hydrochloric acid forming again the previously decomposed salt), the salt redissolves in distilled water forming the same golden solution, this solution when heated with oxalic acid precipitates the metal as a fine brownish powder... in other words, it has all the standard chemical properties of gold. It sure as heck is not "silver" in any shape or form, but the thing is made from silver (and NO, the silver did NOT contain this "thing" before either; I use .999 and .9999 silver coins and bars for my "chymical" experiments, which when dissolved in nitric acid do not leave any trace of any dark powder behind; the dark gold calx is only produced after the silver is submitted to the pertinent "chymical" operations.)

That sounds awesome! What was the density of your chemical gold that you measured? If you have a solution of silver sitting in nitric acid, and light hits it and reduces the silver back to metallic, and the nitric acid dissolves it again, and the light reduces it again, and it gets redissolved by the nitric acid again and again and again... assuming there is enough nitric acid to continue the reaction, will the silver eventually stop reacting with the nitric acid?


Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. If there was any significant amount of any of those metals "floating" around in the air you could simply collect them by placing wide flat glass/ceramic dishes with mercury thinly spread out (to increase its surface area in contact with the metal-laden air) and letting them stand there for a while. Then just distill the mercury off and get your metals almost for free. Poppycock!

Like some alchemists collect and distill dew?

JDP
08-24-2017, 11:11 PM
That sounds awesome! What was the density of your chemical gold that you measured?

The amounts of gold obtained are too small, too difficult to attempt to make density measurements. Will have to wait until larger amounts of the "chymical" gold have been prepared. But the standard chemical properties it displays are more than enough to show that it is gold. There is no other metal that shows all those characteristics.


If you have a solution of silver sitting in nitric acid, and light hits it and reduces the silver back to metallic, and the nitric acid dissolves it again, and the light reduces it again, and it gets redissolved by the nitric acid again and again and again... assuming there is enough nitric acid to continue the reaction, will the silver eventually stop reacting with the nitric acid?

It is not as easy as all that, since silver nitrate in nitric acid solution will not be decomposed by sunlight. Even the neutral solution of silver nitrate is difficult to undergo such a sunlight-induced reduction by itself. Even mixing sugar (sucrose) with the silver nitrate solution and exposing to sunlight for days only gives a partial precipitation of silver, much of the silver still remains in solution, even if you add more sugar and further expose the solution to sunlight (my guess is that the initial reduction of the silver nitrate by the combined action of sugar and sunlight apparently generates some acidic byproduct, which then prevents further amounts of the silver nitrate to be reduced to metal.)


Like some alchemists collect and distill dew?

Like some "puffers" do who think that actual, literal dew somehow has something to do with alchemy, yes.

Joshua
08-24-2017, 11:34 PM
You're also assuming that ablative destruction is also atomizing the metal. This might be happening to some degree, I'm not sure, but the smaller the piece, the quicker it slows down. As far as gasses, and crystallized ice in the atmosphere. I dunno, you might be onto something, but I've never found gold in the bottom of my air compressor. Even gasses that are heavy, like radon or H2S will sink in the air, collecting in low areas. I'm not saying it can't happen, don't get me wrong, and the little buggers will definitely take their time coming down, so if you collected enough "air," eventually you would find something, but I'd leave the top open and just let the good stuff settle out. There are many wonderful things "swimming" through the air, but eventually, they all find a place on the ground. Except deep space probes.. those generally don't come back, lol.

Try putting a little magnet where the air flows out of the air compressor tank to trap some of these hypothetical metallic gasses in the tank over time. They're supposed to be significantly diamagnetic. Might work.

Wet shop vac running slow on a dimmer with a magnet on the output works, too if you evaporate the water without heat through a magnet. NB I forget who told me that. You know those "magnet traps" that people use to collect that "ormus|ormes grease" from air and water? Do you think there could be metallic alchemical substances that we are breathing? Could it be the chi? Is breathing a legitimate alchemical path? The world is a strange place.

Dragon's Tail
08-25-2017, 03:11 AM
Heh. Um. Nope. Hehe. Most of the micro-metorites I've seen aren't "floating about" really like you might think. When you clean your gutter you'll see what I'm talking about. It's a bunch of black mass with some tiny sandy metal. Sometimes you can hear the little clinks when they hit tin, but that's pretty rare. A lot of it is iron, but you can also find little "super magnets" by soaking all that crap in solution and stirring with a powerful magnet. You can also pan for silver and gold, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. The only way I know of for certain to "gassify" gold and silver is by heating them with a laser. In college, one of the professors worked in thin films and had a pretty sweet setup to do that with, for coating mirrors and such. I'm ignorant when it comes to the ormus, I haven't read any of that material. They just drop out of the sky gradually over time as meteors fly over. In a year's time you might collect a couple grams of material, depending on how big your roof is and what it's made from.

If you do manage to "suck some gold out of the air" please post and get my attention some how. Would love to see pictures of that. I don't propose to know everything, even about physics, and something like that would give me ponder material for weeks.

JDP
08-25-2017, 03:40 AM
The only way I know of for certain to "gassify" gold and silver is by heating them with a laser.

The difficulty of volatilizing gold was shown already in the 16th century by the French lawyer (who was very interested in alchemy and transmutation) Gaston "Claveus" DuClo. He kept a gold sample continuously fused in a strongly heated crucible inside a glass-making furnace for TWO MONTHS (!), and he could not detect any loss in the weight of the gold.


If you do manage to "suck some gold out of the air" please post and get my attention some how.

This whole "gold out of the air" business is even more hopeless than the "gold out of sea-water" one. At least the presence of tiny amounts of gold in sea-water is a well established empirical fact (but extracting it out of the sea is more costly than what the gold itself costs, so alas! it cannot be done with profit), while this whole "gold floating around in the air" does not have any empirical evidence at all in its favor.

Dragon's Tail
08-25-2017, 03:51 AM
The difficulty of volatilizing gold was shown already in the 16th century by the French lawyer (who was very interested in alchemy and transmutation) Gaston "Claveus" DuClo. He kept a gold sample continuously fused in a strongly heated crucible inside a glass-making furnace for TWO MONTHS (!), and he could not detect any loss in the weight of the gold.

Indeed. In the lab, if I recall correctly, the powdered metals were charged at the bottom and the glass to be coated charged opposite at the top. The giant laser (I don't recall the details, maybe CO2 and probably on the MW scale) vaporized the metal powder, and the charged cloud was sucked to the top, attaching itself to the glass in a layer a few atoms thick.

Joshua
08-25-2017, 04:15 AM
Gold volatilizes really easily with molten liver of sulfur even below gold's melting point. Iron volatilizes really easy, too, it seems. Have you ever dissolved iron in HCl? It smells strong like sulfur and way different than other HCl dissolutions, but there is no sulfur present. I suspect is it some volatile form of iron. I tried dissolving iron in HCl and bubbling the gasses produced through water to trap the volatile iron. Do you know any other metals that have a strong odor when dissolved? Besides mercury? Mercury smells like death sometimes. Is volatile iron used in alchemy?

Oh, I am not claiming that there is a superabundance of gold in the atmosphere. People say the diamagnetic stuff they magnetically trap and reduce to metal turns out to be mostly silver and copper with some other elements in lesser amounts if I am remembering correctly. Magnetic traps are cool as they can process a huge amount of air or water pretty quickly.

JDP
08-25-2017, 05:30 AM
Gold volatilizes really easily with molten liver of sulfur even below gold's melting point.

That would be some compounds of gold. Gold itself (in its metallic form) does not volatilize easily.


Iron volatilizes really easy, too, it seems.

No, it does not, at least certainly not in its metallic form.


Have you ever dissolved iron in HCl? It smells strong like sulfur and way different than other HCl dissolutions, but there is no sulfur present.

Commercial irons and steels have small quantities of phosphorus, carbon, silicon, sulphur, etc. depending on how they were smelted and/or alloyed. Pure iron is not common in commerce.


I suspect is it some volatile form of iron.

Not likely, as iron does not form volatile compounds with such ease.


I tried dissolving iron in HCl and bubbling the gasses produced through water to trap the volatile iron.

And you trapped something else generated by the impurities in commercial irons/steels, very likely.


Do you know any other metals that have a strong odor when dissolved?

Some metals might form volatile compounds with some solvents and may have peculiar smells, yes.


Besides mercury?

Metallic mercury does not give off any smell on its own. If there is any smell during its solution with some reagents it is because of gases or compounds being given off from those solvents, or the combination of the mercury with something in the solvents, not really from the mercury itself.


Mercury smells like death sometimes.

LOL! This ludicrous claim reminds me of this absurd line in this infamous old Italian zombie movie:


https://www.youtube.com/embed/-mqkpdB99VQ

It makes you wonder how does her pervert incestuous midget son know what "death" smells like in the first place :D


Oh, I am not claiming that there is a superabundance of gold in the atmosphere.

More like there is hardly any gold in the atmosphere.

theFool
08-25-2017, 05:49 AM
Iron volatilizes really easy, too, it seems. Have you ever dissolved iron in HCl? It smells strong like sulfur and way different than other HCl dissolutions, but there is no sulfur present. I suspect is it some volatile form of iron. I tried dissolving iron in HCl and bubbling the gasses produced through water to trap the volatile iron.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4005-Experiment-The-Volatile-Spirit-of-Iron-According-to-Glauber


Do you know any other metals that have a strong odor when dissolved? Besides mercury? Mercury smells like death sometimes. Is volatile iron used in alchemy? Iron will usually have other metals in it too if it is not bought pure. If I remember well, it is said that arsenic vapors have sulfurous smell. Who knows what other metal smells like that.


Gold volatilizes really easily with molten liver of sulfur even below gold's melting point. How could that be, that's strange observation.

Joshua
08-25-2017, 06:43 AM
Metallic mercury does not give off any smell on its own. If there is any smell during its solution with some reagents it is because of gases or compounds being given off from those solvents, or the combination of the mercury with something in the solvents, not really from the mercury itself.

Sorry, but you are incorrect and can suspect a new fact. Mercury itself does have an odor, especially if being boiled, but it does not smell like death. Mercury nitrate, if left exposed to the elements in a big glass container for a good while turns yellow and smells like death. I have smelled it. You may be correct about the iron, though. :-) Good conversation!

"The researchers were also able to characterize another iron-type smell: carbon- and phosphorus-containing cast iron and steel develop a metallic-garlic odor when exposed to acids. Until now, metallurgists ascribed this to the gas phosphine (PH3). However, at breathable concentrations, pure phosphine (also known as a pesticide) is basically odorless. The true culprits are organophosphines, especially those champions among intensively smelly compounds like methylphosphine and dimethylphosphine. Their structure is like that of a phosphine molecule in which one or two of the hydrogen atoms are replaced with methyl (CH3) groups." - https://psychcentral.com/news/archives/2006-10/jws-tso101806.html :-)

JDP
08-25-2017, 08:17 AM
Sorry, but you are incorrect and can suspect a new fact. Mercury itself does have an odor, especially if being boiled, but it does not smell like death. Mercury nitrate, if left exposed to the elements in a big glass container for a good while turns yellow and smells like death.

Metallic mercury is odorless:

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/hazardous/topics/mercury.html

Mercury nitrates might give off the pungent smell of nitrogen oxides as they decompose.


I have smelled it.

LOL! Now this reminds me of Spinal Tap:


https://www.youtube.com/embed/qGXQKqXVVxU"


You may be correct about the iron, though. :-) Good conversation!

"The researchers were also able to characterize another iron-type smell: carbon- and phosphorus-containing cast iron and steel develop a metallic-garlic odor when exposed to acids. Until now, metallurgists ascribed this to the gas phosphine (PH3). However, at breathable concentrations, pure phosphine (also known as a pesticide) is basically odorless. The true culprits are organophosphines, especially those champions among intensively smelly compounds like methylphosphine and dimethylphosphine. Their structure is like that of a phosphine molecule in which one or two of the hydrogen atoms are replaced with methyl (CH3) groups." - https://psychcentral.com/news/archives/2006-10/jws-tso101806.html :-)

Told you so.

Joshua
08-25-2017, 08:24 AM
JDP, what are your best alchemical teachings distilled in a paragraph? It sounds like you know a lot and want to share!

JDP
08-25-2017, 08:33 AM
JDP, what are your best alchemical teachings distilled in a paragraph? It sounds like you know a lot and want to share!

Find the way (or rather one of the possible ways, as there appear to be a few, using some related substances) of preparing the "water" or secret solvent of alchemy, because otherwise NO PHILOSOPHERS' STONE OR ANY REAL ALCHEMICAL "TINCTURE" CAN BE PRODUCED WITHOUT IT. Period.

theFool
08-25-2017, 12:37 PM
Find the way (or rather one of the possible ways, as there appear to be a few, using some related substances) of preparing the "water" or secret solvent of alchemy, because otherwise NO PHILOSOPHERS' STONE OR ANY REAL ALCHEMICAL "TINCTURE" CAN BE PRODUCED WITHOUT IT. Period. Do you think that this water should be operated onto common gold or onto another kind of secret substance?

black
08-25-2017, 12:46 PM
Find the way (or rather one of the possible ways, as there appear to be a few, using some related substances) of preparing the "water" or secret solvent of alchemy, because otherwise NO PHILOSOPHERS' STONE OR ANY REAL ALCHEMICAL "TINCTURE" CAN BE PRODUCED WITHOUT IT. Period.
Mr. JDP

Over the years you have written many long and interesting pieces.

But I feel that this most succinct piece is one of your finest yet !!!

JDP
08-25-2017, 10:14 PM
Do you think that this water should be operated onto common gold or onto another kind of secret substance?

That's a very good question. There is a clear division among alchemical authors regarding what exactly is it that the secret solvent or "water" has to dissolve in order to generate the Stone. One group (for example, Artephius and the like) says that gold (or silver, for making the white Stone) is the substance that has to be submitted to solution in the secret solvent, another group (for example, Ibn Umail and the like older alchemists) says that the "gold" of alchemy is something else and not the "gold of the people" or "vulgar gold" (many of these writers say or imply that this other "gold" or "earth" is also obtained from the "Magnesia", the secret composite "matter" from which the "water" is also prepared), and yet another group (like Philalethes and such) says that both common metallic gold as well as "our gold" work, but that the work with common gold is longer and more difficult than with "our gold".

theFool
08-25-2017, 10:49 PM
That's a very good question. There is a clear division among alchemical authors regarding what exactly is it that the secret solvent or "water" has to dissolve in order to generate the Stone. One group (for example, Artephius and the like) says that gold (or silver, for making the white Stone) is the substance that has to be submitted to solution in the secret solvent, another group (for example, Ibn Umail and the like older alchemists) says that the "gold" of alchemy is something else and not the "gold of the people" or "vulgar gold" (many of these writers say or imply that this other "gold" or "earth" is also obtained from the "Magnesia", the secret composite "matter" from which the "water" is also prepared), and yet another group (like Philalethes and such) says that both common metallic gold as well as "our gold" work, but that the work with common gold is longer and more difficult than with "our gold". Thanks for the detailed answer JDP. I would choose the third option (Philalethes) but it is just my (uneducated) guess of course.

Warmheart
08-25-2017, 10:50 PM
As I see it, secret solvent is initially a gentle substance, which can't solve anything. But by secret operations of strengthening it, it acquires gradually more powerful capabilities to dissolve. As Recreations Hermetique, discussed in other pat of forum, says, 9 is the maximum empowerments this material can go through before it will be dissolving even the best quartz vessel. [Here we go again, dissolving silica, turning it into an oil]

All those empowerments seem to be just a repetition of all the same process/operation, which might take some time and require various factors. This repetition might become gradually harder to accomplish. Thus some alchemists knew the order of operation, but couldn't do it above several times to acquire more powerful versions of solvent.

That's just my assumptions.

Edit: Also I wouldn't trust Iraeneus Philalethes/Starkey. In light of some of his notes now being accessible on Internet (just google for Newton and Starkey as well as Liquor Alcahest), seems that he was just a sophist.