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Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 08:32 AM
The Spagyric Mercury is not 'our Mercury', the same I think goes for Sulphur and Salt. How then in Spagyrics is alcohol to be correctly viewed. It is clearly a menstruum which does extract a Sulphur from a plant which can be clearly seen in the image below.

http://i63.tinypic.com/15xrh4y.jpg

The plant was macerated and kept in alcohol for a month, once alcohol separated from mixture it is rectified. This milky substance is left behind in the retort after the alcohol has come over the still head. This is in my view the Sulphur of the plant not some kind of cosmic Sulphur, it is Spagyric.

I think that this simple point of how a menstruum can be a Mercury and can extract the Sulphur is sometimes lost in the more in depth discussions especially when practical illustration is rarely shown. I don't expect people necessarily to show the Universal Mercury it's action but if they do not why discuss it so exhaustively? Because they don't have It? I will always show what I say I have and not say I have a thing if I am not minded to show a it.

theFool
08-27-2017, 11:36 AM
There are other substances except alcohol that can extract something from a plant, for example naptha. In that case, is naptha also a spagyric plant "mercury"?

If common alcohol is the "mercury", what is the difference between spagyrics and common tinctures of plants made according to chemistry?

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 12:04 PM
There are other substances except alcohol that can extract something from a plant, for example naptha. In that case, is naptha also a spagyric plant "mercury"?

If common alcohol is the "mercury", what is the difference between spagyrics and common tinctures of plants made according to chemistry?

I specifically say that alcohol is not 'our mercury', that it can be used as a menstruum so can act as a mercury for plant Spagyrics. I have no idea if naphtha can act as a Spagyric Mercury/menstruum have you tried it?

Spagyrics is much closer to chemistry than Alchemy this is true. As I have mentioned in another thread if Adolf Hitler and the Dalai Lhama both did the same Spagyric procedure with the same equipment and materials they would both get the same product. The spiritual state of the operator does not effect the outcome for Spagyrics.

theFool
08-27-2017, 12:34 PM
I specifically say that alcohol is not 'our mercury', that it can be used as a menstruum so can act as a mercury for plant Spagyrics. I have no idea if naphtha can act as a Spagyric Mercury/menstruum have you tried it? If I understand correct you say that alcohol is a Spagyric Mercury (and not 'our mercury'). Also from the way you use the words Spagyric Mercury/menstruum I conclude that there is very small difference in their meaning (if any).

Naptha can extract "plant Sulfur" as it changes color when it touches the plant. However, the "naptha plant Sulfur" will have different constituents than "alcohol plant Sulfur" because of different solubilities. They are not the same "Sulfurs" according to chemistry.

True Initiate
08-27-2017, 01:21 PM
Paracelsus taught that if you wish to extract all of the plant sulphur you need to use both alkali and alcohol in order to extract everything and later the german branch of Golden Rosicrucians tried to construct such a menstruum by uniting alkali salts and alcohol together through the intermediary of vinegar.

http://s2.postimg.org/7o8x7in2x/image.png

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 01:37 PM
If I understand correct you say that alcohol is a Spagyric Mercury (and not 'our mercury'). Also from the way you use the words Spagyric Mercury/menstruum I conclude that there is very small difference in their meaning (if any).

Naptha can extract "plant Sulfur" as it changes color when it touches the plant. However, the "naptha plant Sulfur" will have different constituents than "alcohol plant Sulfur" because of different solubilities. They are not the same "Sulfurs" according to chemistry.

Your assumption is incorrect, the difference between 'our mercury' and a Spagyric menstruum Mercury (ethanol) is vast and outside the paradigm of basic Spagyric works. There are thousands of words on this SM, 'our mercury' topic on the forum if you wish to look at those threads. So show me this work you mention with naphtha so it can be seen what you say is true. What kind of Spagyric do you get? Do you get a Lysol type extraction from the plant like with alcohol? Alcohol is a menstruum in plant Spagyrics and for this reason it is called Mercury for plant Spagyric works. I have read about this and also practically tested this for myself. Naphtha sounds interesting what practical research have you done to substantiate your claim?

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 02:10 PM
Paracelsus taught that if you wish to extract all of the plant sulphur you need to use both alkali and alcohol in order to extract everything and later the german branch of Golden Rosicrucians tried to construct such a menstruum by uniting alkali salts and alcohol together through the intermediary of vinegar.

http://s2.postimg.org/7o8x7in2x/image.png

Someone did a flowchart for this on a yahoo group I was in I will see if I can find it? It has copyright protection I can't upload it. Maybe mods can delete this post.

True Initiate
08-27-2017, 03:02 PM
It has copyright protection I can't upload it. Maybe mods can delete this post.

Can you give us a link to this flowchart?

theFool
08-27-2017, 03:11 PM
So show me this work you mention with naphtha so it can be seen what you say is true. What kind of Spagyric do you get? Do you get a Lysol type extraction from the plant like with alcohol? Alcohol is a menstruum in plant Spagyrics and for this reason it is called Mercury for plant Spagyric works. I have read about this and also practically tested this for myself. Naphtha sounds interesting what practical research have you done to substantiate your claim? If you mix a fresh or a dried plant with naptha it will acquire a green color, similar to Lysol but darker. Unfortunatelly I don't have pictures of this color or details of the plants used as many years have passed (it was probably melissa or spearmint). Except alcohol there are other solvents too that can dissolve plant constituents. I'm sure methanol, isopropanol, "nail polish remover" and virtually any organic solvent will do that even if I haven't tried them. I thought this was common knowledge and not much proof is needed.

True Initiate
08-27-2017, 03:26 PM
So what are you saying is that naptha will extract more plant constituents than alcohol. I agree with this since alcholol is such a weak solvent.

theFool
08-27-2017, 03:31 PM
So what are you saying is that naptha will extract more plant constituents than alcohol. I agree with this since alcholol is such a weak solvent. We don't know if it will extract more. I'm just saying it will extract.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 03:32 PM
I'm prepared to take in good faith your assertion that these compounds will extract but did they make a useful Spagyric? were they any better than ethanol. There are plenty of texts for Spagyrics were alcohol has been used perhaps there are commonly available Spagyric texts you could cite for this common knowledge you mention. It would be interesting if these substances could act as menstruums for minerals also just as the radical vegetable menstruum mentioned above by true initiate acts on I think copper and iron.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 03:41 PM
Can you give us a link to this flowchart?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t56nb54o3nxcy7g/Photo%2027-08-2017%2C%2015%2030%2038.png?dl=0

Hopefully that will get it from my Dropbox.

The plant matter doesn't seem to get calcinated and salt obtained in this flow diagram.

Kiorionis
08-27-2017, 03:49 PM
but did they make a useful Spagyric?

Hopefully anyone using Naptha understands how harmful it is:

Hazards

Some forms of this chemical can be dangerous. A few forms can cause cancer, and many of them cause skin irritation, stomach upset and other health problems when people are exposed to them. Naptha also is unstable and flammable, making it important for people to handle it with care. People who inhale or ingest it should see a doctor as soon as possible, and people who have experienced skin contact with it should shower well to reduce the risk of developing skin irritation.

-source (http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-naptha.htm)

Ethanol is so common in spagyrics because of its relative safety when consumed appropriately. Most modern 'spagyrists' intend their tinctures to be consumed.

But, if the aim is true spagyrics, and you're just looking for ways to volatilize salts, Naptha might be an interesting choice on account of its instability and flammability.

theFool
08-27-2017, 04:03 PM
I'm prepared to take in good faith your assertion that these compounds will extract but did they make a useful Spagyric? I can not tell in any way if they end up in a usefull Spagyric or not neither if they are better than ethanol. I'm not sure if I ever made any usefull Spagyric out of ethanol either.


perhaps there are commonly available Spagyric texts you could cite for this common knowledge you mention. I doubt you will find anything in available Spagyrics texts about different than alcohol solvents. On the contrary, chemistry researchers use them often. For example (https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=5666c0a36143254f358b45 80&assetKey=AS%3A304351908696064%401449574557595) in this publication we can read on page 4 (or 587) about "Petroleum ether, chloroform, Diethyl ether, Ethanol, Acetone". The way they use them is exposed in the next page.


It would be interesting if these substances could act as menstruums for minerals also just as the radical vegetable menstruum mentioned above by true initiate acts on I think copper and iron. I doubt any of them would act as "menstruum" for minerals and metals, unfortunatelly.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 04:22 PM
So when you were mentioning this use of naphtha it was years ago, you forgot to mention it was hazardous and you don't really see much use in it, also it is not common knowledge in Spagyrics but is common knowledge in chemistry and pharmacology? Not a Spagyric menstruum like alcohol it would seem....... thanks for the tip.

theFool
08-27-2017, 04:56 PM
So when you were mentioning this use of naphtha it was years ago, you forgot to mention it was hazardous and you don't really see much use in it, If you intended to drink the naptha, then yes, it would be dangerous, it could poison you as Kiorionis has warned.


also it is not common knowledge in Spagyrics but is common knowledge in chemistry and pharmacology? Yes, this is possible.


Not a Spagyric menstruum like alcohol it would seem....... thanks for the tip. You missed the point of my questions, definately never intented to give you a tip.

True Initiate
08-27-2017, 05:15 PM
It would be interesting if these substances could act as menstruums for minerals also just as the radical vegetable menstruum mentioned above by true initiate acts on I think copper and iron.

There is also radical mineral menstruum for copper and iron. Just saying...
http://s2.postimg.org/ditu48yft/Unbenannt.jpg

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 05:21 PM
Perhaps then if you were not intending to 'give me a tip' and you were not suggesting anything useful or practical involving naphtha rather than the normal Spagyric use of alcohol as a menstruum/mercury. Could you clarify what your point was that I have missed? To be frank the fact that you indicate that a point was missed without kindly pointing it out isn't a good sign here. I mean I OP'd about Spagyric menstruums being different to 'our mercury' and that I only ever claim things that I am prepared to show. You on the other hand have shown nothing really useful and you seem to have agreed that the info you have put forward based on pharmacology and chemistry has no Spagyric use. In fact you say you have never made anything useful of a Spagyric nature. So what is the point I have missed here?

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 05:28 PM
There is also radical mineral menstruum for copper and iron. Just saying...
http://s2.postimg.org/ditu48yft/Unbenannt.jpg

My first thought looking at this is that it is vinegar and prepared Hungarian antimony ore, not sure its Spagyric though. Do you know what this is a True Initiate?

Dragon's Tail
08-27-2017, 05:52 PM
The Spagyric Mercury is not 'our Mercury', the same I think goes for Sulphur and Salt. How then in Spagyrics is alcohol to be correctly viewed. It is clearly a menstruum which does extract a Sulphur


Most of my thoughts are born in my work, and I look to the texts to add depth and clarity to my own operations. I would further ask why we call it a "menstrum" since nothing is born in it, but rather it's a vessel for digestion. Ethanol is a solvent, like other solvents. I don't believe that it is really any sort of mercury at all, especially how it's used in spagyrics, but the spagyric art uses the symbolism. They apply these three principals to to what they are doing, in their own way, and that's cool with me, no problem.

But I also think that the true mercury of any substance is not found in the solvent. No matter how well prepared, a solvent is not the mercury, only a "fire" used to aid in decomposition and extraction. By "fire," I mean a means of creating change, forged through destruction. I think there is definitely a universal menstrum for the vegetable kingdom, but it isn't to be found in common solvents, but rather looking to nature's own "secret fire." The mercury of a substance is contained within it, not in the fire used to separate it. Thus the three principals, with a proper menstrum, will all separate on their own. This is still mostly theory, but I believe I'm making progress.

In any case, calling the solvent mercury is most definitely a spagyric definition for a spagyric mindset and toolset. It's just a name. I definitely agree that alcohol is not 'our Mercury,' and furthermore nature's secret fire does not use rectified liquor. Whether strengthening the menstrum by means of our labs is aiding nature, or destroying a better process, that's up to the artist. I have no answer for that at this time.

That said, alcohol (and surely other solvents) do, I believe, have the ability to separate all three principals. How refined they are when they come out of the menstrum is affected by the nature of the solvent or fire used to extract them, but they are there in the solution somewhere, and different solvents will require different means of rectification.



I think that this simple point of how a menstruum can be a Mercury and can extract the Sulphur is sometimes lost in the more in depth discussions especially when practical illustration is rarely shown. I don't expect people necessarily to show the Universal Mercury it's action but if they do not why discuss it so exhaustively? Because they don't have It?


When I get close to finding the universal Mercury of vegetables, I'll tell you all about my findings, but beware they may not be what you expect, and you may reject them on principle, if my premises differ from yours.

The above suggestions are from my own contemplation and lab work, I don't believe I've seen any of this in a book.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 06:16 PM
It is certainly true Dragon's Tail that Spagyric work is not Alchemy but the same terminology is often used and this causes confusion. This is why I was carefull to frame my description in Spagyric terms. The reason I think alcohol is a menstruum is because in Spagyric terms it extracts the Sulphur/soul of the plant which is why it is called Mercury for plants in Spagyrics. Plant Alchemy is not Spagyrics and it seems to me that actual Plant Alchemy is more the direction of your work Dragon's Tail. It would certainly be interesting to see your work when you choose to show it. Apart from that I especially look forward to the possibility of your findings conflicting with any paradigm I currently favour.

True Initiate
08-27-2017, 06:19 PM
My first thought looking at this is that it is vinegar and prepared Hungarian antimony ore, not sure its Spagyric though. Do you know what this is a True Initiate?

The recipe begins with Aqua Fortis (Nitric acid) prepared through iron or copper sulphate and nitre.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 06:33 PM
Thanks for explaining that, personally I choose to stay away from strong acids at present because my lab is in a spare room in my home. Perhaps if I sort out the garden and setup a lab separate to the house I can do things with more dangerous materials. Again I find myself wondering what relevance a text with replacement cypher symbols that isn't about either plant Spagyrics or Plant Alchemy is relevant for here?

z0 K
08-27-2017, 06:56 PM
The Spagyric Mercury is not 'our Mercury', the same I think goes for Sulphur and Salt. How then in Spagyrics is alcohol to be correctly viewed. It is clearly a menstruum which does extract a Sulphur from a plant which can be clearly seen in the image below.


Alcohol as used in spagyrics is not a menstruum. It is a solvent. Alcohol can become a component in the preparation of an alchemical mestruum. A solvent will extract or dissolve not change the molecular structure of the matter in it. Alcohol does not extract plant sulfur. It dissolves various fats and oils the plant produced along with some flavinoids and alkaloids if it has water in it.


The plant was macerated and kept in alcohol for a month, once alcohol separated from mixture it is rectified. This milky substance is left behind in the retort after the alcohol has come over the still head. This is in my view the Sulphur of the plant not some kind of cosmic Sulphur, it is Spagyric.

That view of plant fats and oils being plant sulfur is what is being taught in spagyrics schools. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. It is a good place to start gaining lab experience. Spagyric schools usually say that those fats and oils are "fixed sulfur" and the essential oils of the plant, the terpenes are "volatile sulfur."

Alchemical Sulfur is only "cosmic" when it is undetermined Anima Mundi. Plants condense alchemical sulfur into a form obtainable by alchemists in the lab. You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.


I think that this simple point of how a menstruum can be a Mercury and can extract the Sulphur is sometimes lost in the more in depth discussions especially when practical illustration is rarely shown. I don't expect people necessarily to show the Universal Mercury it's action but if they do not why discuss it so exhaustively? Because they don't have It? I will always show what I say I have and not say I have a thing if I am not minded to show a it.

The simplest menstruum originates in the destructive distillation of plant matter or any biomass. That "blessed water" when purified is a menstruum sufficient to make an alchemical vegetable stone. It is the matrix or "mother liquor" in which the stone is congealed after the internal feces manifest and are separated. The theory is to build the menstruum's ability to create new molecules by doping it with other materials. One is alcohol in certain preparations. During its use in the compound menstruum alcohol is taken apart (digested) and elements donated to the new menstrum.

I have shown some of the alchemical processes I use in action in two videos posted elsewhere on this forum.

Alchemystic Fire shows the micro particle vapor stream condense into "dry water." From the Dry Water we get philosophical mercury and sulfur from the plant in a form we can determine to the mineral kingdom to use on metals, in theory, because I am still working on substantiating it. Also in that Dry Water stream we receive hidden the alchemical elements Air and Fire and Water. Still in the black mass in the retort we have Earth and Fire. Fire and Water act on Earth and Air. We use Fire and Water to manipulate the matter in accord with the goal to manufacture an alchemical Quintessence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQwQyY8y8o

Congealing Philosophic Matter shows the simple vegetable menstruum made only from what the plant gives to the Fire and nothing else added. The red vegetable menstrum is the mother matrix which gives birth to the Stone. What is distilled out of the mother liquor into the receiver is pure water pH 7.

I've done that sweat distillation dozens of times and it is always amazing to see the crystals form in the mother liquor. The difficulty is getting them out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=_3CMCrvA5Jc

Dragon's Tail
08-27-2017, 07:41 PM
Interesting thoughts z0 K. I think this sentence contains a TON more wisdom than it's innocence lets on:



You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.


Your experiments are insightful also. So you're actually drawing a distinction between two ideas that I consider often, whether the mercury is contained in the living matter, or rather created from it. Perhaps there are two paths, that one creates a mercury specific to that vegetable, whereas the other is a mercury of all vegetables, and possibly of other kingdoms as well? One can be used to create a stone of "the plant" while the other creates the stone of the kingdom.

I like also that you made a distinction that alcohol is not only not the mercury, but it doesn't qualify as a menstrum either. Can you define a menstrum, as you see it? I'm going to continue reading Hollandas' writings, but if there are other texts or quotes specific to this idea, a signpost to such writings would be awesome.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 08:40 PM
Alcohol as used in spagyrics is not a menstruum. It is a solvent. Alcohol can become a component in the preparation of an alchemical mestruum. A solvent will extract or dissolve not change the molecular structure of the matter in it. Alcohol does not extract plant sulfur. It dissolves various fats and oils the plant produced along with some flavinoids and alkaloids if it has water in it.



That view of plant fats and oils being plant sulfur is what is being taught in spagyrics schools. There is nothing wrong with that teaching. It is a good place to start gaining lab experience. Spagyric schools usually say that those fats and oils are "fixed sulfur" and the essential oils of the plant, the terpenes are "volatile sulfur."

Alchemical Sulfur is only "cosmic" when it is undetermined Anima Mundi. Plants condense alchemical sulfur into a form obtainable by alchemists in the lab. You cannot extract it with any solvents because it has to be created from the plant matter by the action of Fire and purified by the action of Water.



The simplest menstruum originates in the destructive distillation of plant matter or any biomass. That "blessed water" when purified is a menstruum sufficient to make an alchemical vegetable stone. It is the matrix or "mother liquor" in which the stone is congealed after the internal feces manifest and are separated. The theory is to build the menstruum's ability to create new molecules by doping it with other materials. One is alcohol in certain preparations. During its use in the compound menstruum alcohol is taken apart (digested) and elements donated to the new menstrum.

I have shown some of the alchemical processes I use in action in two videos posted elsewhere on this forum.

Alchemystic Fire shows the micro particle vapor stream condense into "dry water." From the Dry Water we get philosophical mercury and sulfur from the plant in a form we can determine to the mineral kingdom to use on metals, in theory, because I am still working on substantiating it. Also in that Dry Water stream we receive hidden the alchemical elements Air and Fire and Water. Still in the black mass in the retort we have Earth and Fire. Fire and Water act on Earth and Air. We use Fire and Water to manipulate the matter in accord with the goal to manufacture an alchemical Quintessence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQwQyY8y8o

Congealing Philosophic Matter shows the simple vegetable menstruum made only from what the plant gives to the Fire and nothing else added. The red vegetable menstrum is the mother matrix which gives birth to the Stone. What is distilled out of the mother liquor into the receiver is pure water pH 7.

I've done that sweat distillation dozens of times and it is always amazing to see the crystals form in the mother liquor. The difficulty is getting them out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=_3CMCrvA5Jc

I clearly say that in SPAGYRIC terms I think alcohol can be viewed as a menstruum. You then say it is not from an Alchemical view you are correct. Please do not arbitrarily transport what I have said from Spagyrics into plant Alchemy and then say it is wrong, you are correct in terms of alchemy BUT I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT ALCHEMY I AM TALKING ABOUT THEM IN SPAGYRICS!!! Also I would add that I have never been part of any Spagyrics School or done any kind of formal Alchemy course.

To be even more blunt then I already have: In Spagyrics (NOT ALCHEMY) the alcohol is a menstruum which extracts the ' Spagyric' Sulphur or soul from the plant. Personally I like how Dubuis puts it; that the alcohol is the cloak the Mercury wears which is to mean that the boundary between Spagyrics and Alchemy is not discreet.

I get that terms like; menstruum, Mercury, Sulphur, Salt etc in Spagyrics are entirely different and much more limited then those same terms in Alchemy. It is clear that other posters understand this also, they write to this effect. The sheer perversity of knowing the difference between words in Spagyric terms and the same words in Alchemical terms but then jumping them across to say a Spagyric thing is wrong!

Thanks for the info.

JDP
08-27-2017, 09:03 PM
Ever since the alchemical works attributed to Villanova, Llull, Rupescissa, etc. started using names like "Aqua Vitae" (one of the earliest names applied by medieval pharmacists & doctors to what we now call "ethyl alcohol", "ethanol" or just plain "alcohol") and referring to the distillation of "white or red wine" as code-words and analogies, a great confusion came to be with people interpreting that what they meant was actually spirit of wine. But a more careful examination of what they say this "Aqua Vitae" does will show that evidently they could not possibly mean the same substance we all know under such names. Alcohol, for example, does not turn into an "oil" that floats over its own "water" and "sediments" by mere digestion alone.

Yet according to at least one "adept" ("Theodorus Mundanus"), common spirit of wine (i.e. our ethanol/alcohol) can be used to make the secret solvent, provided that you know how to unite it "with another vegetable nature which bears the Character of a trefoyle".

z0 K
08-27-2017, 09:48 PM
Interesting thoughts z0 K. I think this sentence contains a TON more wisdom than it's innocence lets on:



Your experiments are insightful also. So you're actually drawing a distinction between two ideas that I consider often, whether the mercury is contained in the living matter, or rather created from it. Perhaps there are two paths, that one creates a mercury specific to that vegetable, whereas the other is a mercury of all vegetables, and possibly of other kingdoms as well? One can be used to create a stone of "the plant" while the other creates the stone of the kingdom.

I like also that you made a distinction that alcohol is not only not the mercury, but it doesn't qualify as a menstrum either. Can you define a menstrum, as you see it? I'm going to continue reading Hollandas' writings, but if there are other texts or quotes specific to this idea, a signpost to such writings would be awesome.

Thanks, for me a menstruum is the matrix containing alchemical sulfur and mercury the soul/spirit of the matter under investigation. We feed it properly and it grows into or births stones and quintessences depending on how it is attended.

I would suggest reading Aurora Chymica by Edwardo Bolnest especially his Quintessences of Wine segments in the Vegetable work. Read Philosophia Maturata which is Edward Kelly's translation of St. Dunstan's Book. Ripley had a translation of it titled Key to the Golden Gate. Both Kelly's and Ripley's translations carry the same detailed description of the initial distillation of the starting matter. The descriptions match exactly what you get from the destructive distillation of biomass.

If you consider alchemy theoretical philosophy in general and not the specific practical lab work then alchemical Mercury is in the living plant, but it cannot be quantified only qualified. Pure Philosophical Mercury is Spiritus Mundi undifferentiated. It becomes determined when it energizes an autonomous information system such as a human being or plant. We can qualify its presence by the expression of intelligence exhibited by the autonomous information system. The Mercury itself cannot be examined physically because of the Uncertainty Principle: it is in continuous motion and any attempt to isolate or stop it will cause the death of that being it animates.

When a plant dies the unique intelligence of that individual plant motivating it ceases to function because it could no longer circulate through the system due to one obstruction or another. That motivation is the interaction of Mercury and Sulfur or Spirit and Soul. Spirit and Soul generate information systems in the Microcosm nestled in Eternity which is independent of Space/Time. When the information system penetrates into the Macrocosm energy/matter formations congeal around it expressing the information in a multitude of constructs. Spirit and Soul emanate from the Eternal Microcosmic Egg so the unique expression of the individual being, our plant, emanates from the Cosmic Egg which is beyond Space/Time. The death we perceive is merely our observation of the loss of living motivation the plant once exhibited. The Soul/Spirit responsible for the motivation remains where it always has been in the Microcosm.

Still the deceased corpus retains available Mercury and Sulfur we can take advantage of for our laboratory experimentations. This Mercury and Sulfur is more universal and indirectly obtainable where the unique life expression of that plant was intangible. This is the Mercury and Sulfur of the species. It is released by the fire in destructive distillation. And at the same time it is drawn to the Philosophical Elements atomized with it in the Dragon's fiery breath. It becomes entangled with that matter. It is looking to build a new living corpus. It is no longer determined to the Plant kingdom. You can move it around in the lab if you are careful. You can lose it easily. Then all you will have is the dead body: the molecules it used to manipulate that can be identified by chemical analysis.

Dragon's Tail
08-27-2017, 10:14 PM
Ever since the alchemical works attributed to Villanova, Llull, Rupescissa, etc. started using names like "Aqua Vitae" (one of the earliest names applied by medieval pharmacists & doctors to what we now call "ethyl alcohol", "ethanol" or just plain "alcohol") and referring to the distillation of "white or red wine" as code-words and analogies, a great confusion came to be with people interpreting that what they meant was actually spirit of wine.

Good to know. When I see 2 or three pages on the production of wine (feels like it anyway) I get convinced that they're talking about wine. I'm going to take a closer look at their "grapes" in context, hehe.

theFool
08-27-2017, 10:51 PM
So what is the point I have missed here? That my initial question intended to elucidate the nature of "Spagyric mercury" and "plant sulfur" by eliciting a tip from you. Not to give tip to you. The question did not intend to oppose your experiences, I'm sorry you took it as such.

Axismundi000
08-27-2017, 11:43 PM
Fair enough.

Spagyric Mercury is entirely within the science of chemistry, it does not transmute. It is an extraction medium which dissolves organic compounds and could be called a menstruum because these compounds cross from the body of the plant into the surrounding liquid. Spagyric mercury is not Alchemical or in some way Spiritual which is why anybody can do Spagyrics irrespective of how spiritual or 'good' that person may be.

theFool
08-27-2017, 11:57 PM
Fair enough.

Spagyric Mercury is entirely within the science of chemistry, it does not transmute. It is an extraction medium which dissolves organic compounds and could be called a menstruum because these compounds cross from the body of the plant into the surrounding liquid. Spagyric mercury is not Alchemical or in some way Spiritual which is why anybody can do Spagyrics irrespective of how spiritual or 'good' that person may be. Ok, cool!

Kiorionis
08-28-2017, 12:42 AM
Spagyric Mercury is entirely within the science of chemistry, it does not transmute.

From what I understand, the term "Spagyrics" denotes the art of volatilizing fixt salts. The whole Spagyrics tinctures concept then comes out of that.

I would ask, how well does a spagyric menstruum volatililize fixt salts? And is alcohol capable of doing this?

Axismundi000
08-28-2017, 07:03 AM
Spagyric means separate, purify and recombine and it uses the language of Alchemy but is not Alchemy. Spagyric works like e.g. Volatising salts so they distil over in small quantities with alcohol and oils are I think an area of overlap between Spagyrics and Alchemy. As I mentioned previous the difference between for example plant Spagyrics and plant Alchemy is not discreet. In a way Spagyrics and Alchemy is a false duality but clearly identified (certainly by me in my posts). When salts are successfully distilled across with alcohol and oils are they 'elevated', sublimatio in an Alchemical spiritual way for example. This I think is an example rhetorical question which moves the researcher from basic plant Spagyrics towards plant Alchemy.

So what Spagyrics strictly means I thought was generally accepted and that the overlap into Alchemy is deliberate. The operator starts from methods that anyone can do and gradually moves into Alchemical works that do require Spiritual progress for the operator. Perhaps I should have identified this view rather than assuming it was commonly held.

Edit: Without a clear idea of the differences between Spagyrics and Alchemy, if each persons view of these is different but they do not indicate what these differences are. The situation could be likened to a room full of completely stoned hippies desperately trying to communicate with each other.

Dragon's Tail
08-28-2017, 01:17 PM
Thanks for your clarification Axismundi000

You might encounter some resistance with including "purify" as a middle step, because Paracelsus coined the term (or whoever he got it from) from only two Greek words, and I've even had another contact correct me about which synonyms to use for those 2 words. People can get really hung up on semantics. But I think your definition also reveals 2 branches of Spagyria that I've noticed, though I might be splitting hairs from the perspective of Alchemy.

There is the first and most basic, which doesn't involve "purification" at all. "Burn the plant to ash, dump it back in, shake, settle, bottle, sell."

Then there is another side that, while the operation itself requires not that the person has unlocked any doorways, is more spiritual in nature, and done through wanting to transform themselves both in the creation and taking of their potion. Attempts to purify the tiny amount of biomass lead to a more precious product. And believe it or not, there are even people who will tincture in plenty, but think that Spagyria is too complex a topic, because of ratios and "getting the mixture right."

As the seeker crosses that bridge, and begins to learn several things as the compass points them toward products that are gradually more and more like alchemy. First the realization that more salts are needed, or a complete purification will cause what little they have to disappear. Then wondering why the salts are purified but not the tincture. Filtration is hardly the same as "purification." In new-age communities the solution might be blessed, like holy water. Each answer leads to more questions, and investigations in a budding lab.

That was kind of my path to alchemy, after my initial failures long ago from studying modern texts aimed at making alchemy "simple" with their nonsense about essential oil, "salt," and alcohol to make a stone. They were practicing Spagyria and flat out calling it Alchemy.

In fact, perhaps the two are tied together more than we admit. Where as people come to Alchemy for a lot of different reasons, for me the biggest was a single question: "What makes a process or a thing Philosophical?"
Still hammering that out, btw. I'm no adept, and hardly a practitioner of the art, but all of this brings me back to my initial response to the op. Spagyria borrows the language of alchemy and applies it, at least in the modern world, to the art of perfecting tinctures. On the spiritual side, they use their tinctures as one would use an initiatic product, which means they spend a lot more time in meditations if they are serious about purifying their souls, because obviously there is a world of difference between a tincture's effect and even the most basic philosophical stone. I think my most recent product fell somewhere in the middle.

Axismundi000
08-28-2017, 08:33 PM
Whilst Kiorionis mentions volatising salts in the sticky for Spagyrics Section. I am astounded that there could be any ambiguity about the common view of what Spagyrics is.

Here is the Wikipedia definition it hasn't changed much since I checked it about 4 years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spagyric

Please note Dragon Tails et al where Paracelsus is quoted about separating, cleaning and then recombining. Also for example pp26-27 (beginning of chapter 4) of the well known modern book Real Alchemy by Robert Bartlett clearly indicates the same.

I have no problem with people having a partially or entirely different view of what Spagyrics is but could they please indicate where it differs from the common description so that I can understand. Also perhaps if people wish to discuss Alchemy instead of Spagyrics or even the possible overlap between Spagyrics and Alchemy well that is interesting.

ALL I ASK IS IF I SAY A THING ABOUT SPAGYRICS DO NOT CHANGE IT TO ALCHEMY AND THEN SAY IT IS ALCHEMICALLY WRONG, OF COURSE IT IS BECAUSE IT IS NOT ALCHEMY! IT IS SPAGYRICS!

elixirmixer
08-29-2017, 01:29 AM
Volatilisation of Tartar, is to my understanding, considered a secretive Spagyrical process, wherein the potassium carbonates molecule is transformed, losing it's carbonate and bonding with hydrosolic compounds of water, essential oils, acetates, ethanols ect... It is achieved through circulation and there diversity is as wife as the aforesaid compound mixtures.

Volatilised salts of TarTar overlaps into Alchemical theory with Horlandus, where he secretly describes the volatized salts to be Sal Ammoniac. "Sal Ammoniac" (Volatized salts) are used to penetrate bodies.

Paracelsus was right, is saying tht the Veggie menstruum was both alkali and solvent. These volatized salts with completely dissolve in the appropriate solvents, creating powerful Spagyrival menstrums (special solvents) that begin to border on Alchemical, since Hermetic principals are required to perform circulations. At least, that's how I look at it.

Axismundi000
08-29-2017, 07:48 AM
I agree there is secrecy surrounding methods of volatising salts. Also I agree that this is an area of overlap where Spagyric work moves across to Alchemy. I think in general there is secrecy with similar things with minerals e.g when dry distilling an acetate the material that accretes to the sides to the glassware above the solid residue in the boiling flask. There is a general Alchemical principle at work which in Spagyrics is addressed in the volatisation of salts. This is a much more spiritual thing and so outside the basic description of Spagyrics. I used the example of the Dalai Lhama and Adolf Hitler previous. Whilst the Dalai Lhama could volatise salts easily Adolf Hitler could not because this kind of Alchemical work is operator dependant. The spiritual maturity of the Alchemist impacts the work I think. Not saying either Dalai Lhama or Adolf Hitler do Alchemy here I'm just choosing two people for clear difference in spiritual attitudes.