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pierre
08-28-2017, 11:41 PM
Hi, people.

Can someone say to me if what Fr. Albertus proposes in his book " Alchemists Handbook", in relation to the vegetable stone, really work?

Has someone tried this stone?

Greetings to all.

Axismundi000
08-29-2017, 10:33 PM
I haven't done Spagyrics with a soxhlet like Frater Albertus shows in his handbook. As long as you don't fuse the Soxhlet pieces (a common hazard) it looks like a simpler method because you don't have to separate the Sulphur and Mercury. But I haven't tried it.

pierre
08-30-2017, 01:40 AM
You´re right, Axis... Fr. Albertus uses the sulphur and the mercury together on the salt. He never separates them. I found that very strange.
I will read a little more his book.
Thanks for your comment. :)

Schmuldvich
08-30-2017, 01:44 AM
You´re right, Axis... Fr. Albertus uses the sulphur and the mercury together on the salt. He never separates them. I found that very strange.
I will read a little more his book.
I find so many of the modern 'authorities' (authors) very strange and misinformed.

Have you looked into studying any older writings?

pierre
08-30-2017, 02:26 AM
I find so many of the modern 'authorities' (authors) very strange and misinformed.

Have you looked into studying any older writings?

Which, for example?

Schmuldvich
08-30-2017, 03:26 AM
Which, for example?

...That's what I am asking you!


I enjoy Sendivogius, Raudorff, Philalethes, Grassot, Magnus, Rhumelius, Morenius, Artephius, etc. etc.

zoas23
08-30-2017, 04:04 AM
I did it, Pierre... several years ago (the first lab things I did was replicating what the books by Albertus, Junius and Dubuis said... I strictly mean the vegetable part of them). They are not incredibly different.

Yes, it "works", even if some things won't happen exactly as they are described in those books (this was specially true for me with Dubuis, who gives very accurate details about temperatures and sometimes things happen in a different way with our weather).

But asking if it "works" is tricky. The answer is yes... but that "yes" does not mean that it has any worth.

You know, you can take any dried non-toxic plant that you want and make a tea with it.... and then claim that it's a spagyrical tea.... and that's OK, you've made a tea and it "worked".

So the BIG question is if it has any worth... my answer is "no". You can make a "stone" with his method... but don't expect it to be much more interesting than, say, a tea.

I assume that the BEST thing about doing such things is gaining practice in the use of lab equipment... which is fine for someone who is beginning with such thing, but that's not really your case. The best thing to do with his book is to give it to some friend that you don't specially appreciate :p

pierre
08-30-2017, 07:41 PM
I did it, Pierre... several years ago (the first lab things I did was replicating what the books by Albertus, Junius and Dubuis said... I strictly mean the vegetable part of them). They are not incredibly different.

Yes, it "works", even if some things won't happen exactly as they are described in those books (this was specially true for me with Dubuis, who gives very accurate details about temperatures and sometimes things happen in a different way with our weather).

But asking if it "works" is tricky. The answer is yes... but that "yes" does not mean that it has any worth.

You know, you can take any dried non-toxic plant that you want and make a tea with it.... and then claim that it's a spagyrical tea.... and that's OK, you've made a tea and it "worked".

So the BIG question is if it has any worth... my answer is "no". You can make a "stone" with his method... but don't expect it to be much more interesting than, say, a tea.

I assume that the BEST thing about doing such things is gaining practice in the use of lab equipment... which is fine for someone who is beginning with such thing, but that's not really your case. The best thing to do with his book is to give it to some friend that you don't specially appreciate :p


Ha ha... zoas!

your words are very clear... aren´t they?

So you think that this vegetable stone is no more than a tea?

Well, I cannot say the opposite... ;)

pierre
08-30-2017, 07:51 PM
...That's what I am asking you!


I enjoy Sendivogius, Raudorff, Philalethes, Grassot, Magnus, Rhumelius, Morenius, Artephius, etc. etc.

Ah... I understand.

Yes, I have read to Arnaldo Villanova, Crasellame, Ramon Lull, Isaac Hollandus, Limojon de Saint Diddier...

I just was asking you which ones have you read... But a guess we both know it, now. ;)

True Initiate
08-30-2017, 08:46 PM
Hey Pierre in this video Timothy Hogan claims that you can prepare Phi stone from vegetable matter similar to Fr. Albertus. Sorry if it is not precisely on the topic but hey it's a video!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2293&v=iUTLcG718_E

pierre
08-31-2017, 12:05 AM
Hey Pierre in this video Timothy Hogan claims that you can prepare Phi stone from vegetable matter similar to Fr. Albertus. Sorry if it is not precisely on the topic but hey it's a video!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2293&v=iUTLcG718_E



Well, True Initiate, I didn´t know that video. I will take a look later.

And yes, may be not in topic, but its very interesting!

Thanks my friend-

zoas23
08-31-2017, 01:15 AM
Ha ha... zoas!
your words are very clear... aren´t they?
So you think that this vegetable stone is no more than a tea?
Well, I cannot say the opposite... ;)

Haha... I simply meant that with a plant you can make a tea, you can make a marmalade, you can make a sauce, you can make a juice, you can make an oil, a liquor, etc... You can also extract different things from it and call them "salt", "sulphur" and "mercury"... and mix them in a certain way and call it "stone".

I truly think that with Albertus we are still in the realm of... Bizarre cuisine with fancy cooking flasks?

Other than that, his book was for LOTS of persons the first book on (something close to) alchemy... or at least the first one that lead them to do "something" at the lab.... so that's good.

But you have gone beyond the "I'm new and I bought my first flask!" phase... So I would not waste time with Albertus.

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 04:31 AM
I hadn't really red his work, but just skimmed through some of his vegetable pages. You're right in saying this is totally spagyrical, but there is a difference between his and the other widely published stuff, in that he makes no effort to separate the essential oil. I can't say for certain because I haven't used his method (though I have contemplated similar practices with adding the "salt" back to the original tincture) and he's leaving out tons, which might provoke some philosophical thoughts about the nature of what's happening in the flask. For instance if they leave the mix sitting around for a little while ;) There's also probably enough chemical material there to make a "dirty" stone, but in my neophatic and totally humble opinion, he's butchering the process right at the start.

If you are trying to create a vessel for a living essence, what makes more sense? The body of a newborn or digging a carcass out of the ground. The SM climbs into every living thing. We are a natural magnet for it, and the same is represented in the plant kingdom, and the mineral kingdom. Look for the "baby body" which is the strongest magnet.

Again, just my wondering thoughts. Anything that gets someone out of reading texts for a minute and gets them actually experimenting and making mistakes though, I'm all for it. Everything I've learned was through my mistakes.

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 04:36 AM
Again, just my wondering thoughts. Anything that gets someone out of reading texts for a minute and gets them actually experimenting and making mistakes though, I'm all for it. Everything I've learned was through my mistakes.

And I totally just had another revelation. I know what my prima will be when I figure out the rest of my process. SO EXCITED! hehe, another puzzle piece down, and very philosophically.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 04:56 AM
And I totally just had another revelation. I know what my prima will be when I figure out the rest of my process. SO EXCITED! hehe, another puzzle piece down, and very philosophically.

What's it gonna be?!

Axismundi000
08-31-2017, 08:12 AM
A Spagyric plant stone and an Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom are two different things. In regard to Spagyrics, people like Fr. Albertus, Dubuis and Junius are pretty informative. So again the mismatch is thinking about Spagyrics as if it were Alchemy. I politely direct you to the common definition of Spagyrics which is certainly in keeping with the material published by these authors.

pierre
08-31-2017, 10:57 AM
I hadn't really red his work, but just skimmed through some of his vegetable pages. You're right in saying this is totally spagyrical, but there is a difference between his and the other widely published stuff, in that he makes no effort to separate the essential oil. I can't say for certain because I haven't used his method (though I have contemplated similar practices with adding the "salt" back to the original tincture) and he's leaving out tons, which might provoke some philosophical thoughts about the nature of what's happening in the flask. For instance if they leave the mix sitting around for a little while ;) There's also probably enough chemical material there to make a "dirty" stone, but in my neophatic and totally humble opinion, he's butchering the process right at the start.

If you are trying to create a vessel for a living essence, what makes more sense? The body of a newborn or digging a carcass out of the ground. The SM climbs into every living thing. We are a natural magnet for it, and the same is represented in the plant kingdom, and the mineral kingdom. Look for the "baby body" which is the strongest magnet.

Again, just my wondering thoughts. Anything that gets someone out of reading texts for a minute and gets them actually experimenting and making mistakes though, I'm all for it. Everything I've learned was through my mistakes.


Hi Dragon´s Tail

Is it possible that Fr. Albertus is concealing the procedure, and because of it look like an incomplete or erroneous path to us?

Maybe is it directing us other authors to complete the process.

Or simply, it is not like that, and this are my speculations.

pierre
08-31-2017, 11:07 AM
A Spagyric plant stone and an Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom are two different things. In regard to Spagyrics, people like Fr. Albertus, Dubuis and Junius are pretty informative. So again the mismatch is thinking about Spagyrics as if it were Alchemy. I politely direct you to the common definition of Spagyrics which is certainly in keeping with the material published by these authors.

I like your way of thinking... :)

Kiorionis
08-31-2017, 11:14 AM
Hi Dragon´s Tail

Is it possible that Fr. Albertus is concealing the procedure, and because of it look like an incomplete or erroneous path to us?

Maybe is it directing us other authors to complete the process.

Or simply, it is not like that, and this are my speculations.

Possibly. I have not read his book. Does he present a theory to work off of, and the process a supplement to the theory?

pierre
08-31-2017, 12:00 PM
Possibly. I have not read his book. Does he present a theory to work off of, and the process a supplement to the theory?


Yes, he did. But there is some strange things, like he don´'t separate the sulphur from mercury of the plant... He uses both togheter, for example, with de salt.

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 02:33 PM
What's it gonna be?!

Ham Sammich! haha.

I think everything needed to figure that out is in my other post. Narrows it down to a lot of possibilities in the plant kingdom, and I think all of them are good choices if they aren't poisons. What's the one stage of plant growth where SM is most likely to be captured and contained in the material, and what can you do to make sure there is an abundance, enough to collect several pounds worth of material.

I'm partial to one, because there's a 5 gallon bucket of it at my mom's house. Most of them can be cheap, you can buy them on a grocery shelf, then add some water, fire, and air from nature on a substrate that we'll call earth, and wha-la. SM trap :)

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 02:40 PM
Hi Dragon´s Tail

Is it possible that Fr. Albertus is concealing the procedure, and because of it look like an incomplete or erroneous path to us?

Maybe is it directing us other authors to complete the process.

Or simply, it is not like that, and this are my speculations.

It's possible, but more likely he was trying for the most medicinal kind of spagyric. His method will keep you from getting sick if you mess up. Spagyrics are usually for medicines, so cleanliness is important and will keep the seeker from making terrible errors in judgement. As Axismundi000 said, this topic is on spagyrics, and I believe his method (based on my 2 minutes of shuffling through it last night) has solid ground in that department, and will elicit the kind of spiritual and philosophical questions needed if the seeker decides to move past spagyrics and start meditating on nature.

This is also one reason I like the Emerald Tablet, it's so vague that you can apply it to a broad band of things, not only producing the stone. It serves as a good base for spagyrics, spiritual alchemy, and lab work, in a short, easy read.

Warmheart
08-31-2017, 03:00 PM
For some reason I thought that people discuss book of Albus Zelator, but he seems to be purely Russian alchemist (and very anonymous at that).

For those who are interested in what I am talking about, I am talking about this book (keep in mind that it is in Russian, so perhaps Google Translate might help):
http://www.universalinternetlibrary.ru/book/5699/ogl.shtml

He writes some interesting things about Spagyrics (about working with vegetable kingdom in particular), so it it definitely an interesting read.

Edit: Forgive me my ignorance, it actually seems to be the very book which is discussed here.

pierre
08-31-2017, 03:44 PM
Hi Warmheart.

Yes, is the same book in Russian lenguage.

What a fantastic tool is Google Translate!!! ;)






For some reason I thought that people discuss book of Albus Zelator, but he seems to be purely Russian alchemist (and very anonymous at that).

For those who are interested in what I am talking about, I am talking about this book (keep in mind that it is in Russian, so perhaps Google Translate might help):
http://www.universalinternetlibrary.ru/book/5699/ogl.shtml

He writes some interesting things about Spagyrics (about working with vegetable kingdom in particular), so it it definitely an interesting read.

Edit: Forgive me my ignorance, it actually seems to be the very book which is discussed here.

pierre
08-31-2017, 03:49 PM
It's possible, but more likely he was trying for the most medicinal kind of spagyric. His method will keep you from getting sick if you mess up. Spagyrics are usually for medicines, so cleanliness is important and will keep the seeker from making terrible errors in judgement. As Axismundi000 said, this topic is on spagyrics, and I believe his method (based on my 2 minutes of shuffling through it last night) has solid ground in that department, and will elicit the kind of spiritual and philosophical questions needed if the seeker decides to move past spagyrics and start meditating on nature.

This is also one reason I like the Emerald Tablet, it's so vague that you can apply it to a broad band of things, not only producing the stone. It serves as a good base for spagyrics, spiritual alchemy, and lab work, in a short, easy read.


Dragon´s Tail...

And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet?

theFool
08-31-2017, 03:54 PM
Hi, people.

Can someone say to me if what Fr. Albertus proposes in his book " Alchemists Handbook", in relation to the vegetable stone, really work?

Has someone tried this stone?

Greetings to all. I think that modern spagyrics writers are confused. For example, if you have the book of M. Junius, "Spagyrics" you can read at page 57:

1) A quote of how Basile Valentine instructs us to extract the Salt out of the ash of the plant.

2) The author's way of extracting the Salt from the ash.

If you compare those two methods you will see that they are totally different. Since they interpret mistakenly the old authors, it is easy to understand why "Modern Spagyrics" fail to produce the plant Stone. In my opinion those modern books are good only for entry points before studying the old authors.

theFool
08-31-2017, 03:58 PM
And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet? Good question.

pierre
08-31-2017, 04:59 PM
I think that modern spagyrics writers are confused. For example, if you have the book of M. Junius, "Spagyrics" you can read at page 57:

1) A quote of how Basile Valentine instructs us to extract the Salt out of the ash of the plant.

2) The author's way of extracting the Salt from the ash.

If you compare those two methods you will see that they are totally different. Since they interpret mistakenly the old authors, it is easy to understand why "Modern Spagyrics" fail to produce the plant Stone. In my opinion those modern books are good only for entry points before studying the old authors.

I will check this detail that you mention, theFool... Thanks.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 05:08 PM
And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet?
Good question.

The "Roasarium Philosophorum" would be an excellent place to start.

JDP
08-31-2017, 05:39 PM
The "Roasarium Philosophorum" would be an excellent place to start.

None of the texts that circulated under that title had anything to do with any imaginary "plant Stone" but with the actual Philosophers' Stone.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 06:01 PM
The "Roasarium Philosophorum" would be an excellent place to start.
None of the texts that circulated under that title had anything to do with any imaginary "plant Stone" but with the actual Philosophers' Stone.

Which is exactly why I suggested "Roasarium Philosophorum"...

Pierre asked about the Alchemical Stone of the plant kingdom. Alchemy = Philosopher's Stone.






And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet?

JDP
08-31-2017, 06:11 PM
Which is exactly why I suggested "Roasarium Philosophorum"...

Pierre asked about the Alchemical Stone of the plant kingdom. Alchemy = Philosopher's Stone.







The question was about an imaginary "Stone". There is no "alchemical stone of the plant kingdom" as a separate entity that is different from, say, an "animal Stone" and a "mineral Stone". There are no "hyphenated" "Stones", there is the Philosophers' Stone, period. Then there are "particular" alchemical "tinctures", but these are not exactly the Stone, though the secret solvent is also employed in their manufacture.

Axismundi000
08-31-2017, 06:17 PM
I think that modern spagyrics writers are confused. For example, if you have the book of M. Junius, "Spagyrics" you can read at page 57:

1) A quote of how Basile Valentine instructs us to extract the Salt out of the ash of the plant.

2) The author's way of extracting the Salt from the ash.

If you compare those two methods you will see that they are totally different. Since they interpret mistakenly the old authors, it is easy to understand why "Modern Spagyrics" fail to produce the plant Stone. In my opinion those modern books are good only for entry points before studying the old authors.
The quoted Basil Valentine method is I think about volatising the salts which in the bulk of modern Spagyric stuff is replaced by washing through filter paper then evaporating the filtered liquid to get the gradually cleaned salts. Certainly the modern stuff is stripped down and the modern Spagyrics is not Alchemy. Junius was obviously aware of the difference because he gives the two methods side by side. In Dubuis material Hollandus opera vegetabilia is not given attention until his Mineral Alchemy volumes the reason he gives for this is because the characteristics of what is produced is closer to what can be achieved with mineral Alchemy work. So then, there seems to be a consensus amongst modern writers that Plant Spagyrics is made into a simplified and not particularly Alchemical body of Praxis. Older sources have not been edited in this way but have a more obscure language, sometimes deliberately, sometimes because of differences in terminology to the same substances used in modern day chemistry.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 06:30 PM
The "Roasarium Philosophorum" would be an excellent place to start.


None of the texts that circulated under that title had anything to do with any imaginary "plant Stone" but with the actual Philosophers' Stone.


The question was about an imaginary "Stone". There is no "alchemical stone of the plant kingdom" as a separate entity that is different from, say, an "animal Stone" and a "mineral Stone". There are no "hyphenated" "Stones", there is the Philosophers' Stone, period.
Exactly! http://www.landofmarbles.com/phpbb/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif



The quoted Basil Valentine method is I think about volatising the salts which in the bulk of modern Spagyric stuff is replaced by washing through filter paper then evaporating the filtered liquid to get the gradually cleaned salts. Certainly the modern stuff is stripped down and the modern Spagyrics is not Alchemy.
We need to remember that the Ancients (such as Basil Valentine) wrote with veiled speech. Their writings and instructions were not meant to be taken literally in the exoteric sense, but rather were meant to be understood esoterically to those initiated into our Art.

Basil Valentine was writing about Alchemy, not spagyrics.

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 07:11 PM
Dragon´s Tail...

And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet?

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this, but my thinking is the only book that matters is the book of nature, and the experience of the SM in our daily lives. The universe is the master of all teachings, and the book that we should be concentrating on. That may sound a little "fortune cookie," but it's what I believe.

Personally, as far as my personal studies are concerned, I would examine carefully the writings in the Biblical books of Moses, translations of older Egyptian books, and I think the spirit of "the work" may have been preserved best in 8th century Arabic beyond those. The early Romans and Greeks may also be good places to look. There may be something buried in old medical books.

BUT: I am not in possession of the stone, and I've probably read less on the subject than everyone here. I'm also not obsessed with it's pursuit, as I think nature has many wonderful things to offer that are overlooked. I have no desire to live forever, and I'd rather make my way through my literary works. Short of that, many curios can enhance my spiritual pursuits which are not the stone.

I also disagree with the idea that "only the stone is alchemical." If that's true, then how many of us here are truly "alchemists?" There are elixirs and products of various degree that don't fall completely in the realm of spagyrics. What should we call them?

Illen A. Cluf
08-31-2017, 07:20 PM
There are elixirs and products of various degree that don't fall completely in the realm of spagyrics. What should we call them?

Snake oil?

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 07:54 PM
Personally, as far as my personal studies are concerned, I would examine carefully the writings in the Biblical books of Moses, translations of older Egyptian books, and I think the spirit of "the work" may have been preserved best in 8th century Arabic beyond those. The early Romans and Greeks may also be good places to look. There may be something buried in old medical books.
All of these are fantastic suggestions, especially the book of Genesis--much of the practical part of our Art is laid out clearly in this very early text.

As far as an "old medical book" goes, A Treatise Of The Asthma (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4932-quot-A-Treatise-Of-The-Asthma-quot-1698) is an interesting place to start: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A39846.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext



I also disagree with the idea that "only the stone is alchemical." If that's true, then how many of us here are truly "alchemists?"
No one!!!

It's what I've been saying since the day I got here...

Show me one person on this forum, or anybody in the entire world(!), alive right now who possesses the Philosopher's Stone.



PROTIP: You can't

z0 K
08-31-2017, 08:13 PM
The question was about an imaginary "Stone". There is no "alchemical stone of the plant kingdom" as a separate entity that is different from, say, an "animal Stone" and a "mineral Stone". There are no "hyphenated" "Stones", there is the Philosophers' Stone, period. Then there are "particular" alchemical "tinctures", but these are not exactly the Stone, though the secret solvent is also employed in their manufacture.

I think the original question was
Can someone say to me if what Fr. Albertus proposes in his book " Alchemists Handbook", in relation to the vegetable stone, really work?

JDP you have decided to call it "imaginary." You go much further out on a limb by proclaiming "there is no alchemical stone of the plant kingdom." I have shown you many photos of finished alchemical plant stones or "vegetable stones," manufactured in my lab. You do not have to accept the photos are genuine chronicle of my work. That is your choice. Your approach to discussion here is argumentative. You cannot prove with any factotums of reason or empirical ratiocinations that there is no alchemical stone of the plant kingdom. The only way to maintain that stance is to stubbornly deny any demonstration of such a vegetable stone no matter what. Have you tried to make a plant stone via one of Hollandus three methods for example?

I do have to agree with you that all alchemical stones require particular engineering to manufacture. Though the alchemical stones from each kingdom are different in specie they stem from the same root the secret solvent and are built on the same engineering Principles. Hollandus says that the Vegetable Stone is better for Man than the "Mineral Stone." There is certainly a conflict among the sages about that as well.

You might consider that when one knows how to make the alchemical stone from the plant kingdom that one knows the basic secret solvent necessary to manifest the particular alchemical stone determined to the plant kingdom. Once that is known it is not difficult to gain the secret solvent from the animal kingdom. That kingdom is full of foul water that has to be removed. And much useless stinking oil. I personally prefer plants.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 08:21 PM
JDP you have decided to call it "imaginary." You go much further out on a limb by proclaiming "there is no alchemical stone of the plant kingdom." I have shown you many photos of finished alchemical plant stones or "vegetable stones," manufactured in my lab.

I personally prefer plants.

What are you able to do with what you've produced in the lab?

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 08:41 PM
No one!!!

It's what I've been saying since the day I got here...

Show me one person on this forum, or anybody in the entire world(!), alive right now who possesses the Philosopher's Stone.


Thanks for the great links. This forum truly is a treasure trove of information and informed readers. Just want to point out that I wasn't trying to argue. There is (likely, I don't really know because I haven't seen it) one Philosopher's Stone. Semantics can be a pain in the rump sometimes. And the word "stone" in modern context has so many possible meanings. It's even a verb! hehe

This is why I've carefully pointed out in my preparations, to call them spagyrics. I was only making the subtle point to ask a question more than anything else, and perhaps JDP is the best person to answer it. Is a spagyric any process that does not produce the stone? What exactly qualifies as "alchemical?" Are the two really mutually exclusive? I wonder what answer Chinese alchemists would come up with for this, as they seem to embrace the production of even "common" or spagyric medicines, at least as far as I understand it. I'm lacking in that arena as well. Maybe you guys can help me to understand.

JDP
08-31-2017, 08:48 PM
There are elixirs and products of various degree that don't fall completely in the realm of spagyrics. What should we call them?

Some alchemists talk about "particular tinctures", which frequently present the appearance of "oils" rather than a solid substance like the Stone. Another distinguishing factor is that they also have a lower transmuting power than the Stone. Some historical transmutation demonstrations were in fact carried out not with the Stone but some of these curious products (like the dark oily substance with which Godwin Herman Braun and the apothecary Salwedel transmuted about 6 times its own weight of lead into gold.)

JDP
08-31-2017, 08:57 PM
I think the original question was

JDP you have decided to call it "imaginary." You go much further out on a limb by proclaiming "there is no alchemical stone of the plant kingdom." I have shown you many photos of finished alchemical plant stones or "vegetable stones," manufactured in my lab. You do not have to accept the photos are genuine chronicle of my work. That is your choice. Your approach to discussion here is argumentative. You cannot prove with any factotums of reason or empirical ratiocinations that there is no alchemical stone of the plant kingdom. The only way to maintain that stance is to stubbornly deny any demonstration of such a vegetable stone no matter what. Have you tried to make a plant stone via one of Hollandus three methods for example?

I do have to agree with you that all alchemical stones require particular engineering to manufacture. Though the alchemical stones from each kingdom are different in specie they stem from the same root the secret solvent and are built on the same engineering Principles. Hollandus says that the Vegetable Stone is better for Man than the "Mineral Stone." There is certainly a conflict among the sages about that as well.

You might consider that when one knows how to make the alchemical stone from the plant kingdom that one knows the basic secret solvent necessary to manifest the particular alchemical stone determined to the plant kingdom. Once that is known it is not difficult to gain the secret solvent from the animal kingdom. That kingdom is full of foul water that has to be removed. And much useless stinking oil. I personally prefer plants.

Providing that you have indeed wrought this product with the secret solvent of alchemy, then what you have made is a "particular", in this case a medicinal one. However, I would not call this "the Philosophers' Stone". The Stone has to by force participate of a metallic/mineral nature, and it has to have a certain amount of transmuting power to qualify as such. There are other alchemical "tinctures" (all made by means of the secret solvent; I am obviously excluding here the "chymical" "particulars", which do not involve the secret solvent of alchemy, and therefore are much inferior in transmutational efficiency than any truly alchemical production), but they have lower power than the Stone.

Dragon's Tail
08-31-2017, 09:29 PM
Hi, people.

Can someone say to me if what Fr. Albertus proposes in his book " Alchemists Handbook", in relation to the vegetable stone, really work?

Has someone tried this stone?

Greetings to all.

Now that the discussion has been had, and I've read over FA's modus operandi again carefully, I think I can answer you, but your question is a little vague, so I will divide my answer:

Does this process create an "alchemical" substance by rigid definition of one of the qualifiers: "must use the secret solvent?" I have to answer no. He uses alcohol, which isn't even really that great of a solvent. It's a little better than water on it's own, but if you're using a soxhlet, I mean, come on guy. Better solvents make fore better results.

Will it make a waxy little ball that will warm the heart and enhance your meditations? I believe it will. After looking it over again, the important parts are similar to an extract that I made from a common tincture. I believe if you proceed carefully, you will see this little waxy wonder, and it will definitely seem magical. It's like the powder all at once decides to "stand up," and grows into a "dry droplet." I know that doesn't make any sense, but you will know it when you see it.

That said, I don't agree with his methods, and I believe that if left in the incubator it will dry out and crumble. If left in the air it will eventually "bleed" and you will see that the darkness is too much for the subtle captured spirit to penetrate, because there isn't much SM at all, and because it's prepared so carelessly. If you find me to be in error on this, then please let me know, as I may change part of my proceedure. I make a big deal about separating the darkness from the light, before the final preparation, and their's STILL gunk in it. I'm currently trying to wash it and recrystallize to see what I get, but it will take at least a month, probably several, before my current process finishes.

These are only my guesses, as he's careless with his treatment of the feces too, and there may be a special salt that is flying away by his process. I still have to confirm this in my own experiments as well.

I would say, that for a spagyric (you're welcome) production, this can be a fruitful method to follow. At least he isn't following the whole "essential oil is the sulphur" nonsense. But don't be afraid to experiment, and drift from his methods if something doesn't appear right. If it feels wrong, then don't do it. If you want to collaborate after the little jelly-stone (think I'm going to start calling them that to make everyone happy, haha) then let me know. Once to get to that stage the two of us will definitely have something to talk about.

EDIT: Also don't stop when you think you've "scorched" the "oil." There's still something valuable to be learned by proceeding on your own, by asking the right questions and trying stuff.

Kibric
08-31-2017, 09:30 PM
And what texts would you recommend to study the Alchemical stone of the plant kingdom, besides the Emerald Tablet?

not my area but Manfred Junius practical handbook of plant alchemy
I've never read it but it was recommended by a friend

z0 K
08-31-2017, 10:18 PM
Providing that you have indeed wrought this product with the secret solvent of alchemy, then what you have made is a "particular", in this case a medicinal one. However, I would not call this "the Philosophers' Stone". The Stone has to by force participate of a metallic/mineral nature, and it has to have a certain amount of transmuting power to qualify as such. There are other alchemical "tinctures" (all made by means of the secret solvent; I am obviously excluding here the "chymical" "particulars", which do not involve the secret solvent of alchemy, and therefore are much inferior in transmutational efficiency than any truly alchemical production), but they have lower power than the Stone.

I call it what Hollandus called it: Vegetable Stone. Ripley called it Stone for the Poor. This is my observation after having made what I call the inorganic stone from plants. The organic stone made from plants I call Quintessence like Hollandus. These are my opinions based on experimental observation and experience not assumptions based on reading of texts alone.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what is the metallic/mineral nature of the secret solvent. It is of a metallic/mineral nature because the solvent contains the hope of metals as some have said. I did not understand that until I purified the secret solvent from its crude initial state. The solvent is composed of alchemical fire, water, and air. The water and air I'm familiar with. The water is easy to get but the return is very small compared to how much starting matter you need. The air is tricky to collect; unless the fire is controlled precisely the air will hide in the water/mercury and the sulfur/tar. The fire is something that remained hidden in the water even after 10 rotations. I discovered how to isolate while trying to recover Armoniac that disappeared into the water after I had sublimed the icy form of Sal Armoniac just above the milky concentrate I would call Virgin's Milk in the old literature.

I have recently discovered that one can multiply the secret solvent by the judicious addition of distilled water under the right circumstances. All of these discoveries were made working in the plant kingdom. I spent years fiddling in the mineral/metallic realm. I made some interesting experiments altering tin and lead with a form of the secret solvent derived from the animal kingdom. The text was about making tin more like silver in nature. The tin at the end of the process was shiny like silver and even made a sound like silver when tapped with a steel rod. I'm not saying I was able to turn either metal into another metal. I did not know what it was at the time, but I knew it was due to the presence of ammonia obtained from urine used to quench the molten metals many times.

thoth
08-31-2017, 11:11 PM
It is possible the salts need to be purified in a particular way such as subliming them. The way to do this is heating them to their subliming temp in a closed system (BUT WITH A PRESSURE RELEASE such as a flask with extra spout with into which is inserted a "pressure release" cork, or a homebrew fermenter's bubbler
http://www.goodlifehomebrew.com/bubbler-airlock-gh )

The condensing head needs to be as cold as possible. Sometimes the subliming only becomes apparent a day or two after the heat has been turned off so you need to be patient.
Maybe wintertime is best when the condensing head will be naturally cold.
This is one way of spiritualising the salts, and is a nice alternative to filtering, as this leaves the non salt impurities behind.

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 11:16 PM
I call it what Hollandus called it: Vegetable Stone. Ripley called it Stone for the Poor. This is my observation after having made what I call the inorganic stone from plants. The organic stone made from plants I call Quintessence like Hollandus.

What are you able to do with these stones?

zoas23
08-31-2017, 11:17 PM
The question was about an imaginary "Stone". There is no "alchemical stone of the plant kingdom" as a separate entity that is different from, say, an "animal Stone" and a "mineral Stone". There are no "hyphenated" "Stones", there is the Philosophers' Stone, period. Then there are "particular" alchemical "tinctures", but these are not exactly the Stone, though the secret solvent is also employed in their manufacture.

Your comments brought to my mind the "Minor Circulation" of Urbigerus... A text that you obviously know.
He says it very clearly "a specificated Elixir, belonging to the Vegetable Kingdom"... and then describes its properties and its limitations (i.e, when he describes its action on metals, he is very open about what a Vegetable Elixir CAN do when it acts on a Metal and what it CAN'T do).

I'd say that Urbigerus is quite "conservative" when it comes to explaining what is possible and what is not possible to do with a vegetable path (conservative in the sense that he says that it has a somehow limited use)... BUT he never said "don't do it". He actually wrote his small book about it, so he obviously thought that it had some worth.

JDP
09-01-2017, 12:13 AM
I call it what Hollandus called it: Vegetable Stone. Ripley called it Stone for the Poor. This is my observation after having made what I call the inorganic stone from plants. The organic stone made from plants I call Quintessence like Hollandus. These are my opinions based on experimental observation and experience not assumptions based on reading of texts alone.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what is the metallic/mineral nature of the secret solvent. It is of a metallic/mineral nature because the solvent contains the hope of metals as some have said. I did not understand that until I purified the secret solvent from its crude initial state. The solvent is composed of alchemical fire, water, and air. The water and air I'm familiar with. The water is easy to get but the return is very small compared to how much starting matter you need. The air is tricky to collect; unless the fire is controlled precisely the air will hide in the water/mercury and the sulfur/tar. The fire is something that remained hidden in the water even after 10 rotations. I discovered how to isolate while trying to recover Armoniac that disappeared into the water after I had sublimed the icy form of Sal Armoniac just above the milky concentrate I would call Virgin's Milk in the old literature.

I have recently discovered that one can multiply the secret solvent by the judicious addition of distilled water under the right circumstances. All of these discoveries were made working in the plant kingdom. I spent years fiddling in the mineral/metallic realm. I made some interesting experiments altering tin and lead with a form of the secret solvent derived from the animal kingdom. The text was about making tin more like silver in nature. The tin at the end of the process was shiny like silver and even made a sound like silver when tapped with a steel rod. I'm not saying I was able to turn either metal into another metal. I did not know what it was at the time, but I knew it was due to the presence of ammonia obtained from urine used to quench the molten metals many times.

The solvent of alchemy obviously cannot be 100% metallic/mineral, since, as some writers point out, the subjects of this kingdom are "too dry", they can't provide the necessary "humidity" to make the alchemical solvent by themselves (if you have plenty of empirical experience with all manner of metallic and mineral substances you will understand why some have said this; the only liquids that can be obtained by using mineral/metallic products exclusively are things like mercury, common water, some acids, some salts... none of which has the properties and effects of the alchemical solvent.) But the Stone itself has to participate of a metallic nature. If you have made an alchemical product purely out of some vegetable matters + the secret solvent then it is one of the kinds of medicines that some past writers called "quintessences", "arcanums", "magisteries", etc. But those are not the Stone. These are "particulars", more specifically medicinal "particulars".

Illen A. Cluf
09-01-2017, 12:26 AM
The solvent of alchemy obviously cannot be 100% metallic/mineral, since, as some writers point out, the subjects of this kingdom are "too dry", they can't provide the necessary "humidity" to make the alchemical solvent by themselves (if you have plenty of empirical experience with all manner of metallic and mineral substances you will understand why some have said this; the only liquids that can be obtained by using mineral/metallic products exclusively are things like mercury, common water, some acids, some salts... none of which has the properties and effects of the alchemical solvent.) But the Stone itself has to participate of a metallic nature. If you have made an alchemical product purely out of some vegetable matters + the secret solvent then it is one of the kinds of medicines that some past writers called "quintessences", "arcanums", "magisteries", etc. But those are not the Stone. These are "particulars", more specifically medicinal "particulars".

JDP, would you completely rule out the possibility of a solvent made with vegetable matter with regards to making the Stone? Does the entire process have to involve the Mineral Kingdom ONLY as some alchemists seem to suggest, or do some allow the possibility of elements derived from the other Kingdoms? I have never seen this question addressed before.

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 01:47 AM
JDP, would you completely rule out the possibility of a solvent made with vegetable matter with regards to making the Stone? Does the entire process have to involve the Mineral Kingdom ONLY as some alchemists seem to suggest, or do some allow the possibility of elements derived from the other Kingdoms? I have never seen this question addressed before.

Plant ashes contain traces of LOTS of metals, including silver. Amounts will vary depending on where they are harvested, but unless someone could confect a stone of the plant kingdom that would transmute the material to a metallic nature... hmmm. You know it's funny, we're talking about turning lead into gold and unlocking potentially unlimited longevity, yet so many denounce what it can be made from and how it can be made, and it needs to contain this or that, or come from this or that, or it has to be prepared this certain way only. It's curious that thoughts like these plague us. I'm still learning, and I'm sure I have a LONG way to go, even to the first gate. But it seems to me that working within the nature of the cosmos, maybe we can open our minds to new possibilities. Like why the plant product discussed in this discourse can actually be produced fairly quickly, when you stumble across the right ingredients while doing lab work, pondering nature's mysteries, and meditating on what you observe. Just a thought. Pay it no mind if it doesn't agree with you.

JDP
09-01-2017, 02:34 AM
JDP, would you completely rule out the possibility of a solvent made with vegetable matter with regards to making the Stone?

No, but I think it is obvious that metals/minerals also enter the composition. But minerals/metals by themselves also cannot generate the solvent. To quote the "Rosary" referred to above:

Hermes says in his Allegories: Luna is the light of the night, the night is the nativity of Darkness, which God has ordained for the governing of the world. And Luna receives her Light from Sol and is beloved, because the light of Sol is in her and because the nature of Sol overcomes the nature of Luna. Our Mercury is made of a mineral and vegetable joined together, because things joined together do profit more, than if they should be separated by themselves, out of those things consider the necessity of both Mercuries.


Does the entire process have to involve the Mineral Kingdom ONLY as some alchemists seem to suggest, or do some allow the possibility of elements derived from the other Kingdoms? I have never seen this question addressed before.

As you are aware of, there is a difference of opinion regarding this. Some writers claim that only mineral/metallic matters can be used, while others point out or imply the necessity of other substances entering the operations. But the thing that nobody seems to differ on is that the Stone itself has to participate of a metallic/mineral matter. Whether this metallic matter is actual metallic gold or silver, or "our gold", or some other metal or one of its derivatives, all alchemists seem unanimous that a mineral/metallic matter enters its composition.

theFool
09-01-2017, 09:24 AM
But minerals/metals by themselves also cannot generate the solvent. Some alchemical treatises imply that the Mercury is generated out of a single mineral ("antimony", "magnesia", the starting matter, etc). I think none of them requires any vegetable for the operation of Mercury extraction.

JDP
09-01-2017, 11:18 AM
Some alchemical treatises imply that the Mercury is generated out of a single mineral ("antimony", "magnesia", the starting matter, etc). I think none of them requires any vegetable for the operation of Mercury extraction.

That is an obvious ruse. Take the trouble, like many a seeker in past centuries did, of heating ANY mineral inside a retort and you will see that the only liquid product you might get out of them is just vulgar water (some minerals contain this substance simply as either a mere coincidental impurity or as an integral part of their natural crystallization), or, if it happens to be a mercury-bearing one, some metallic mercury might be produced. Some minerals will also decompose, partly or totally, and give you liquid acid products with the said common water. This is in fact how "aqua fortises" (i.e. acids) were discovered.

As Ripley very well points out in his "Liber Secretissimus", the "antimony" of alchemy is a COMPOUND MADE BY THE OPERATOR HIMSELF, and, unlike the natural antimony, it contains the necessary "humidity" to give the desired byproducts:

Take our Artificial Antimony, but not the Natural Antimony as it comes out of the Earth, for that is too dry for our work, and hath little or no humidity, or fatness in it, but take as I say, our Artificial Antimonial Compound, which is abundantly replenished with the Dew of Heaven and the fatness and unctuosity of the earth, wherein precious Oils and rich Mercuries are by Nature closely sealed up, and hidden from the eyes of all ignorant deriders of the great and wonderful mysteries of Almighty God, to the end that seeing they should not see, nor understand, what he hath enclosed in the most obvious, common, and contemptible beginnings of all Things in the whole World.

Illen A. Cluf
09-01-2017, 01:21 PM
Plant ashes contain traces of LOTS of metals, including silver. Amounts will vary depending on where they are harvested, but unless someone could confect a stone of the plant kingdom that would transmute the material to a metallic nature... hmmm. You know it's funny, we're talking about turning lead into gold and unlocking potentially unlimited longevity, yet so many denounce what it can be made from and how it can be made, and it needs to contain this or that, or come from this or that, or it has to be prepared this certain way only. It's curious that thoughts like these plague us. I'm still learning, and I'm sure I have a LONG way to go, even to the first gate. But it seems to me that working within the nature of the cosmos, maybe we can open our minds to new possibilities. Like why the plant product discussed in this discourse can actually be produced fairly quickly, when you stumble across the right ingredients while doing lab work, pondering nature's mysteries, and meditating on what you observe. Just a thought. Pay it no mind if it doesn't agree with you.

One thing seems to be quite certain - whether or not matter from the plant Kingdom is used as well, as a minimum, mineral matter must be used to make the Stone. So-called stones made from vegetable matter alone is a modern invention having little in common with traditional alchemy.

Illen A. Cluf
09-01-2017, 01:31 PM
No, but I think it is obvious that metals/minerals also enter the composition. But minerals/metals by themselves also cannot generate the solvent. To quote the "Rosary" referred to above:

Hermes says in his Allegories: Luna is the light of the night, the night is the nativity of Darkness, which God has ordained for the governing of the world. And Luna receives her Light from Sol and is beloved, because the light of Sol is in her and because the nature of Sol overcomes the nature of Luna. Our Mercury is made of a mineral and vegetable joined together, because things joined together do profit more, than if they should be separated by themselves, out of those things consider the necessity of both Mercuries.

I totally agree that as a minimum, mineral matter must be used. Also some sort of liquid matter originating from something other than the minerals. That's a very appropriate quote from the Rosary! Here it distinctly says that both mineral and vegetable matter are joined. There are, of course, some treatises that state that only matter from the mineral Kingdom should be used (as well as some form of humidity).




As you are aware of, there is a difference of opinion regarding this. Some writers claim that only mineral/metallic matters can be used, while others point out or imply the necessity of other substances entering the operations. But the thing that nobody seems to differ on is that the Stone itself has to participate of a metallic/mineral matter. Whether this metallic matter is actual metallic gold or silver, or "our gold", or some other metal or one of its derivatives, all alchemists seem unanimous that a mineral/metallic matter enters its composition.

Again, I agree 100%. That rules out the vegetable stones that seem to have become so popular in the last few centuries. I don't deny that some of these vegetable stones might have nutritional or health value, and even assist somewhat in understanding some alchemical principles, but I think it's a mistake to include them in the category of traditional Alchemy.

pierre
09-01-2017, 01:43 PM
Now that the discussion has been had, and I've read over FA's modus operandi again carefully, I think I can answer you, but your question is a little vague, so I will divide my answer:

Does this process create an "alchemical" substance by rigid definition of one of the qualifiers: "must use the secret solvent?" I have to answer no. He uses alcohol, which isn't even really that great of a solvent. It's a little better than water on it's own, but if you're using a soxhlet, I mean, come on guy. Better solvents make fore better results.

Will it make a waxy little ball that will warm the heart and enhance your meditations? I believe it will. After looking it over again, the important parts are similar to an extract that I made from a common tincture. I believe if you proceed carefully, you will see this little waxy wonder, and it will definitely seem magical. It's like the powder all at once decides to "stand up," and grows into a "dry droplet." I know that doesn't make any sense, but you will know it when you see it.

That said, I don't agree with his methods, and I believe that if left in the incubator it will dry out and crumble. If left in the air it will eventually "bleed" and you will see that the darkness is too much for the subtle captured spirit to penetrate, because there isn't much SM at all, and because it's prepared so carelessly. If you find me to be in error on this, then please let me know, as I may change part of my proceedure. I make a big deal about separating the darkness from the light, before the final preparation, and their's STILL gunk in it. I'm currently trying to wash it and recrystallize to see what I get, but it will take at least a month, probably several, before my current process finishes.

These are only my guesses, as he's careless with his treatment of the feces too, and there may be a special salt that is flying away by his process. I still have to confirm this in my own experiments as well.

I would say, that for a spagyric (you're welcome) production, this can be a fruitful method to follow. At least he isn't following the whole "essential oil is the sulphur" nonsense. But don't be afraid to experiment, and drift from his methods if something doesn't appear right. If it feels wrong, then don't do it. If you want to collaborate after the little jelly-stone (think I'm going to start calling them that to make everyone happy, haha) then let me know. Once to get to that stage the two of us will definitely have something to talk about.

EDIT: Also don't stop when you think you've "scorched" the "oil." There's still something valuable to be learned by proceeding on your own, by asking the right questions and trying stuff.


My goal is basically, to think the possibility of a vegetable solvent, which for immersion could extract the components of any plant. Is this possible?

For some reason, I have the belief that the "sublimation" of the salts, has a great importance in this task. But this is my believe. And this is not of little importance to me.

Can this work go beyond solvent? Well... we will see in his moment, in case...

For now... this vegetal solvent is something that is calling me.

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 02:03 PM
My goal is basically, to think the possibility of a vegetable solvent, which for immersion could extract the components of any plant. Is this possible?

For some reason, I have the belief that the "sublimation" of the salts, has a great importance in this task. But this is my believe. And this is not of little importance to me.

Can this work go beyond solvent? Well... we will see in his moment, in case...

For now... this vegetal solvent is something that is calling me.

I've just started testing various ideas to find my solvent of the vegetable kingdom. Ideally it would be able to contain the living spirit of the matter, but I currently have no test to verify if this has be done. An ideal spagyric solvent for me would extract from the plant, not everything, but pull out the Mercury and Sulphur into solution directly, that they would be easier to rectify, and the feculence of the body would "eat" itself, reducing to a darkness at the bottom which gives itself over to separation from the mixture, and from this the salts could be purified. Some say the best solvent is found in the products of dry distillation, but I'm still timid about the procedure, even though my calcination of the body is done by a similar method, but the gasses escape.

I have a mixture of calcium acetate that doesn't seem to be doing much, but I might try other experiments with it. I'm also digesting some oregano digesting in it's own water, which is progressing better, and a bit slower, than I thought it would. Usually when I try that trick, molds will creep in, but I think my starting matter had enough yeasts and bacteria to combat them.

z0 K
09-01-2017, 05:19 PM
I've just started testing various ideas to find my solvent of the vegetable kingdom. Ideally it would be able to contain the living spirit of the matter, but I currently have no test to verify if this has be done.

The alchemical solvent of the vegetable kingdom must contain the living spirit and soul of the plant. When that spirit is contained in the matter it is called argent vive, living water, blessed water, burnt wine, our mercury, etc. When that soul isolated in the matter it is called sulfur and sometimes fire. There are no chemistry tests to confirm the presence of the spirit or soul of the plant. Observation of the matter in action will verify the presence of the soul/spirit of the plant. The observations will demonstrate alchemical reactions and the elimination of feces that will not happen with the same chemical molecules obtained from chemical engineering.

I have seen the comparisons between ordinary water and burnt wine, and sal armoniac and ammonium carbonate, for instance. The water and ammonium carbonate do not give results in accord to what is described by adepts like Hollandus and Ripley. You will never get internal feces to drop with ordinary chemical bodies used instead of the philosophical bodies, our water/mercury and sulfur/fire. Internal feces drop after you have purified the materials and recombine them.


An ideal spagyric solvent for me would extract from the plant, not everything, but pull out the Mercury and Sulphur into solution directly, that they would be easier to rectify, and the feculence of the body would "eat" itself, reducing to a darkness at the bottom which gives itself over to separation from the mixture, and from this the salts could be purified.

You are describing the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus. That is an alchemical preparation many have tried to make. As far as I know no one has succeeded. Though some have claimed to have done it their offered proof in photographs remains unconvincing to me because I have followed those procedures and got the same end product. That product did no more separating of principles than ordinary ethanol.


Some say the best solvent is found in the products of dry distillation, but I'm still timid about the procedure, even though my calcination of the body is done by a similar method, but the gasses escape.

I'm in agreement with the some that say the best solvent is found in the products of dry distillation. It is a toxic foul smelling operation if not done with the proper equipment. And even then once the water and fire have condensed the volatile vapors will burn your eyes even in trace ammounts in the air. I have high volume intake and exhaust fans to clean the air in the lab because Armoniac and Fire will creep out of the container unless the temp is kept cold. The beginning of the solvent is in those gasses that escape. All you need for the initial preparation of the secret solvent is in the micro particle vapor stream of the dry distillation. Manipulation of the micro particle stream is path I'm experimenting with.

In the video you see the micro particle vapor stream after several distillations off a prepared mineral calx from the plant kingdom. After a few more iterations the solvent picks up a green hue not yet present in the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF5k4n_0f6A

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 05:39 PM
The alchemical solvent of the vegetable kingdom must contain the living spirit and soul of the plant. When that spirit is contained in the matter it is called argent vive, living water, blessed water, burnt wine, our mercury, etc. When that soul isolated in the matter it is called sulfur and sometimes fire. There are no chemistry tests to confirm the presence of the spirit or soul of the plant. Observation of the matter in action will verify the presence of the soul/spirit of the plant. The observations will demonstrate alchemical reactions and the elimination of feces that will not happen with the same chemical molecules obtained from chemical engineering.

I have seen the comparisons between ordinary water and burnt wine, and sal armoniac and ammonium carbonate, for instance. The water and ammonium carbonate do not give results in accord to what is described by adepts like Hollandus and Ripley. You will never get internal feces to drop with ordinary chemical bodies used instead of the philosophical bodies, our water/mercury and sulfur/fire. Internal feces drop after you have purified the materials and recombine them.

I'm in agreement with the some that say the best solvent is found in the products of dry distillation. It is a toxic foul smelling operation if not done with the proper equipment. And even then once the water and fire have condensed the volatile vapors will burn your eyes even in trace ammounts in the air. I have high volume intake and exhaust fans to clean the air in the lab because Armoniac and Fire will creep out of the container unless the temp is kept cold. The beginning of the solvent is in those gasses that escape. All you need for the initial preparation of the secret solvent is in the micro particle vapor stream of the dry distillation. Manipulation of the micro particle stream is path I'm experimenting with.

In the video you see the micro particle vapor stream after several distillations off a prepared mineral calx from the plant kingdom. After a few more iterations the solvent picks up a green hue not yet present in the video.

What is your ultimate goal with these experiments?

theFool
09-01-2017, 07:18 PM
z0 K, as usual your input is practical and interesting. May I ask:

1) The dry calcination temperature is above red hot heat (~500 deg C) or below?

2) How do you condense the white fume in your video (the " micro particle stream"). It seems very volatile. Do you dissolve it in some solvent? Ethanol can do it or it needs something else?

Thanks!

pierre
09-01-2017, 07:50 PM
The alchemical solvent of the vegetable kingdom must contain the living spirit and soul of the plant. When that spirit is contained in the matter it is called argent vive, living water, blessed water, burnt wine, our mercury, etc. When that soul isolated in the matter it is called sulfur and sometimes fire. There are no chemistry tests to confirm the presence of the spirit or soul of the plant. Observation of the matter in action will verify the presence of the soul/spirit of the plant. The observations will demonstrate alchemical reactions and the elimination of feces that will not happen with the same chemical molecules obtained from chemical engineering.

I have seen the comparisons between ordinary water and burnt wine, and sal armoniac and ammonium carbonate, for instance. The water and ammonium carbonate do not give results in accord to what is described by adepts like Hollandus and Ripley. You will never get internal feces to drop with ordinary chemical bodies used instead of the philosophical bodies, our water/mercury and sulfur/fire. Internal feces drop after you have purified the materials and recombine them.


You are describing the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus. That is an alchemical preparation many have tried to make. As far as I know no one has succeeded. Though some have claimed to have done it their offered proof in photographs remains unconvincing to me because I have followed those procedures and got the same end product. That product did no more separating of principles than ordinary ethanol.



I'm in agreement with the some that say the best solvent is found in the products of dry distillation. It is a toxic foul smelling operation if not done with the proper equipment. And even then once the water and fire have condensed the volatile vapors will burn your eyes even in trace ammounts in the air. I have high volume intake and exhaust fans to clean the air in the lab because Armoniac and Fire will creep out of the container unless the temp is kept cold. The beginning of the solvent is in those gasses that escape. All you need for the initial preparation of the secret solvent is in the micro particle vapor stream of the dry distillation. Manipulation of the micro particle stream is path I'm experimenting with.

In the video you see the micro particle vapor stream after several distillations off a prepared mineral calx from the plant kingdom. After a few more iterations the solvent picks up a green hue not yet present in the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF5k4n_0f6A


Then, we must separate the three components of the plant, purify them separately, and assemble them for our hand in a "new" compound, as they old texts say.
From there then, we will be able to see the reactions that the teachers indicate us.

Am i right, z0 K?

z0 K
09-01-2017, 10:41 PM
Then, we must separate the three components of the plant, purify them separately, and assemble them for our hand in a "new" compound, as they old texts say.
From there then, we will be able to see the reactions that the teachers indicate us.

Am i right, z0 K?

You are right about the three components of the plant, mercury, sulfur, and salt need to be separated and purified. That is the way I do it, but I believe Ripely and Kelly also digested mercury and sulfur together in a putrefaction that caused a purified separation of the mercury and sulfur together. I have not experimented with that way yet.

The purifications are accomplished with the understanding of the four elements as well. Water and Fire active upon the passive earth and air which are receptive to the incursions and are all that is used. All purifications are done with heat and water: from 1200F down to 110F depending on the operation; different waters, water of the clouds taken from the plant at BM temps before destructive distillation, distilled water can be used to augment water of the clouds or to create it by artifice, and "our blessed water" which is created in the dry distillation above 450F. Air, Armoniac, is purified with distilled water or our blessed water. The process ends with a sublimation of the pure sal armoniac. Earth is purified with high heat then repeated solutions in any of the created waters, or distilled water alone.

When done right you will see the reactions the old alchemists like Lull, Ripley, Hollandus, Kelly and Dunstan and many others have indicated. At least I have seem them. You will have to see for yourself:)

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 10:57 PM
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I was working and wanted to give this post a portion of the time and credit it deserves. As always, this has been incredibly helpful. Thanks so much for sharing.


The observations will demonstrate alchemical reactions and the elimination of feces that will not happen with the same chemical molecules obtained from chemical engineering.
More time experimenting to know the difference. Today, while mixing my salt with another concoction, I noticed the little red droplets not only separating from the fluid immediately, but zipping about in the bottom of the crucible in multiple directions. Thought it was kind of neat, but then, could be a chemical thing, just like the little bubbles that like to dance around on top of the fluid in the boiling flask. Cool to me, but probably "normal." That's okay, I'm willing to take my time and learn.


You will never get internal feces to drop with ordinary chemical bodies used instead of the philosophical bodies, our water/mercury and sulfur/fire. Internal feces drop after you have purified the materials and recombine them.

Darn. I noticed my last plant preparation rip itself apart as the darkness finally freed from my solution, though, so this makes sense. We'll see what comes from my "dragon trap" ;)


You are describing the Circulatum Minus of Urbigerus. That is an alchemical preparation many have tried to make. As far as I know no one has succeeded.

More reading... Maybe if I'm lucky I can fill in some of his gaps, and he can fill in some of my own. Probably a lost cause, but I'm still going to try to find something like this. Guess my idea of doing the "Mellissa ens" thing as part of the solvent process is likely hopeless then. Good, I'm trying to ditch the alcohol anyway.
EDIT: I have a copy of this one, I'm just bad with names. Read through it again last night. This is actually one of my favorite works. But it's really complicated for me as well. He says he's going to lay everything out clearly and step by step, but the whole thing seems to be metaphor


In the video you see the micro particle vapor stream after several distillations off a prepared mineral calx from the plant kingdom. After a few more iterations the solvent picks up a green hue not yet present in the video.
Neat! You suspect that's Mr. Green Lion? or perhaps the Vitriol before bleeding it?

I have one big question for you. How are you regulating the pressure. Does the silicone ring at the joint stretch, or is it kind of "keep the receiver as cold as possible and hope for the best?" I noticed that some of the condensing droplets looked like they were trying to escape through the connection at the bottom.

z0 K
09-01-2017, 11:18 PM
z0 K, as usual your input is practical and interesting. May I ask:

1) The dry calcination temperature is above red hot heat (~500 deg C) or below?

2) How do you condense the white fume in your video (the " micro particle stream"). It seems very volatile. Do you dissolve it in some solvent? Ethanol can do it or it needs something else?

Thanks!

The initial dry distillation should go to around 1200F to get everything that will decompose to distill over. The fume doesn't always condense into the "dry water" stream. To coax it into condensing into that form the temp of the receiver must be below 100F. The temp of the retort must be uniform over the entire core of matter in it, and the temp must rise gradually. The "blessed water" or mercury is the only alchemical solvent. No ethanol is used nor any outside solvents. It is the matrix to which fire and air are added to increase its strength.

In the video I was experimenting to see what else could be obtained from the sulfur after the extraction of the fire and air. Those left-over chunky tarry feces are not used in most alchemical plant stone processes. I mixed it with spent ashes of the plant after the water soluble salts had been extracted. The matter was mixed like cookie dough into pasty balls then they placed into a retort and dry distilled. The general process is described in detail by Bolnest in Aurora Chymica and many other places as well. The oil became lighter in color from almost black to light yellow and ruby red in layers indicating two oils. Both were less viscous than before and began to strip metals from the ashes in subsequent rotations until it picked up a green hue. That is where I ran out of time and had to stop the experiment. Exposure to light and air cause them to darken quickly.

theFool
09-02-2017, 07:03 PM
That is an obvious ruse. Take the trouble, like many a seeker in past centuries did, of heating ANY mineral inside a retort and you will see that the only liquid product you might get out of them is just vulgar water I had the idea that most minerals when heated in the retort will release the alchemical mercury.

JDP
09-02-2017, 07:11 PM
I had the idea that most minerals when heated in the retort will release the alchemical mercury.

You can easily put that theory to the test by heating samples of the minerals that you have in mind inside distilling flasks/retorts and see what happens. 99.99999999999999999999999999% guaranteed that you will not get any "mercury" (unless the mineral in question does in fact contain mercury in some form or another.) The most you can get will be accidental residual water, or water of crystallization, or some acids (like it happens when you strongly distill "vitriols".)

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 07:39 PM
The most you can get will be accidental residual water, or water of crystallization, or some acids (like it happens when you strongly distill "vitriols".)

And this isn't a type of "Mercury"?

Dragon's Tail
09-02-2017, 07:47 PM
JDP

But this can oxidize them, and prepare them to be tinctured with the special solvent, yes? Is that the proper order of operation? I suppose I could go back and read over Geber's work again, but just in case I interpret what he's saying anyway, I'd like to get your opinion on this matter.

As it pertains to the OP. It might serve us (plant people and our "tinctures" hehe) to look to the world of metals as a resource on the methods of all the kingdoms for wisdom about our processes, from purely spagyric to chymic, to the possibility of alchemical "specific tinctures."

zoas23
09-02-2017, 08:11 PM
The initial dry distillation should go to around 1200F to get everything that will decompose to distill over.

What kind of vessels are you using??? Quartz?
Your words and videos are sufficient to understand that you are actually doing what you are doing, but 1200F in a borosilicate vessel/flask doesn't make sense to me. That's more or less 650ºC... can you go that high with borosilicate without breaking it?

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 08:14 PM
Borosilicate glass melts around 1500 f, or 800 c

zoas23
09-02-2017, 08:44 PM
Thank you, I will give it a try for different things.
My experiences with borosilicate and temperatures above 400ºC have usually ended up in breaking (not melting) the flask, but I will try again.

z0 K
09-02-2017, 09:21 PM
What kind of vessels are you using??? Quartz?
Your words and videos are sufficient to understand that you are actually doing what you are doing, but 1200F in a borosilicate vessel/flask doesn't make sense to me. That's more or less 650ºC... can you go that high with borosilicate without breaking it?

I use borosilicate glass. Thicker is better. I have melted a couple and sagged several by holding at 1200F for too long. I've never broken one. I heat them in an electric kiln for the distillation and let the kiln cool down to room temp before taking the retort out. That is usually about 12 hours.

You can get away with it using a 1000mL or smaller flask because it doesn't take as long to distill the smaller volume. I made a special 3.5 quart stainless steel retort for larger volumes. I used an inexpensive stainless steel baine marie pot with lid purchased from an online restaurant supply company. I drilled a hole in the side and inserted a 1 inch diameter stainless steel pipe 10 inches long as the beak. It works really great and will withstand 1200F and more.

Axismundi000
09-02-2017, 09:31 PM
Borosilicate gradually starts to softens above about 240C I think, so if possible a sand bath so the flask doesn't lose shape. Though using sand bath above 600C could be pushing it maybe, my heating mantle does 540C. Using a kiln with boiling flask inside poking through hole in door to receiving flask I have seen online. Higher temp heating mantles I think would need a quartz flask and they are not cheap.

Edit just saw post above after I clicked save button. The only theoretical thing I would add is keeping a borosilicate boiling flask inside kiln in a pot with high temp powder or sand to help it keep its shape.

Aside from the Alchemy this all sounds like big fun.

z0 K
09-02-2017, 09:42 PM
I have one big question for you. How are you regulating the pressure. Does the silicone ring at the joint stretch, or is it kind of "keep the receiver as cold as possible and hope for the best?" I noticed that some of the condensing droplets looked like they were trying to escape through the connection at the bottom.

The pressure is regulated by using a receiver with volume larger than the retort volume, keeping the receiver below 100F with the ability to cool it more with ice packs on the fly, and not letting the temp rise too fast. When I know the distillation products must be chilled to condense then I use a receiver packed in ice in a modified styrofoam cooler. The joint is sealed with dielectric grease. It is pretty impervious to the fumes. If the heat rises too fast pressure rises too fast then the grease seal will fail, but your receiver will not be blown off the train.

I also use wet formed toilet paper to seal joints of flasks not intended to fit together. Paper joints will leak fumes if the pressure gets positive in the receiver. I also use dielectric grease to fill the gap then wrap the joint with the paper for the final lute.

Schmuldvich
09-02-2017, 11:38 PM
The process ends with a sublimation of the pure sal armoniac.

When done right you will see the reactions the old alchemists like Lull, Ripley, Hollandus, Kelly and Dunstan and many others have indicated. At least I have seem them. You will have to see for yourself:)

Neat!

What are some ways you have used this pure sal armoniac in the lab, z0 K?

JDP
09-03-2017, 03:13 AM
And this isn't a type of "Mercury"?

No, it's just common water, and common acids.

JDP
09-03-2017, 03:15 AM
JDP

But this can oxidize them, and prepare them to be tinctured with the special solvent, yes? Is that the proper order of operation? I suppose I could go back and read over Geber's work again, but just in case I interpret what he's saying anyway, I'd like to get your opinion on this matter.

If what you want is a metallic oxide/calx you can more conveniently carry out such an operation in crucibles or calcining dishes.

JDP
09-03-2017, 03:26 AM
What kind of vessels are you using??? Quartz?
Your words and videos are sufficient to understand that you are actually doing what you are doing, but 1200F in a borosilicate vessel/flask doesn't make sense to me. That's more or less 650ºC... can you go that high with borosilicate without breaking it?

No, you can heat them until they are red hot and start softening (not quite melting yet.) You can also do the same with ordinary glass, but you have to coat it with a refractory mixture first (mixtures of sand and clay work well for such purposes), since ordinary glass does not withstand thermal shock as well as borosilicate glass and also has a lower softening point (the refractory shell makes it easier for the glass to be gradually heated without cracking and also helps the softening glass to keep its shape and avoid the danger of it eventually falling on the bottom of your furnace and making a sticky mess that will be very bothersome to clean up.) This is how the old-timers worked whenever they did not happen to have clay retorts/aludels handy and had to work with glass vessels.

zoas23
09-03-2017, 08:23 AM
No, you can heat them until they are red hot and start softening (not quite melting yet.) You can also do the same with ordinary glass, but you have to coat it with a refractory mixture first (mixtures of sand and clay work well for such purposes), since ordinary glass does not withstand thermal shock as well as borosilicate glass and also has a lower softening point (the refractory shell makes it easier for the glass to be gradually heated without cracking and also helps the softening glass to keep its shape and avoid the danger of it eventually falling on the bottom of your furnace and making a sticky mess that will be very bothersome to clean up.) This is how the old-timers worked whenever they did not happen to have clay retorts/aludels handy and had to work with glass vessels.

Thanks, and thanks to Z ok too.
I've had a bad experience with borosilicate above 400ºC and somehow "decided" that 400ºC is the limit.
So the information is very useful... and I am thinking about lots of ways to use it (most of them completely unrelated to anything that has something to do with this thread actually).
Thanks a lot for the information... I love learning new things.