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Kibric
08-30-2017, 10:33 PM
Hello Y'all

I would like too share my experience with Saint Vallalar.
Some time ago I went to Tamil Nadu in search of Deathlessness. I was invited to take Deekshai which is roughly translated as transmission of Divine consciousness
(Baptizing with Fire).
Those who take Deekshai are known as twice born

Saint Vallalar gave me Deekshai and ever since then I have been practising Penance which is a form of meditation using the eyes.
The goal is to reach Jeevasamadhi which is the beginning stages of converting your body into light (Gnana Deham),
I call it a photonic body at least that's what I predict it will be called in the future

some info on Jeevasamadhi
Please check out the site and all the Saints in Jeevasamadhi
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/jeevasamadhi.htm


Jeeva Samadhi however is entirely different from the other types mentioned above, including Maha samadhi mentioned on another page on this site and can only be achieved by great yogis. It is a very advanced samadhi state closely related to the nirvikalpa samadhi state but then permanent. In Maha samadhi the body will decay over time and the energy will leave the body upon death. In Jeeva samadhi you cannot say the body dies nor can you say it is still alive, however the energy will remain in and around the body as if it were still alive and the body will not decay over time either (or extremely slowly as in some cases). This is a state where Siddhas enters into the samadhi state at their own will after completion of their mission on earth and their mind completely dissolved into the Divine, They stop the functioning of the body and mind.

Incorruptibly of famous Saints is because they are in a state of Jeevasamadhi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility


We all come from the same Light source (Arut Perum Jothi, also called clear light). During the process of creation through the elements the physical body is formed. It is possible for us to reverse the process and make this physical body pure light, here and now, in this plane. We come from the source so we can be the source.
When we express Love, Compassion, and Bliss we are all connected. We are One because those qualities are the qualities of all souls and also the qualities of the Absolute Eternal Grace Light.
There is only one God which is the Absolute Eternal Light, no other form should be worshipped.
There are no castes, no differences of sex...we are all equal.
One should treat all life as he would treat his own life.
One should not believe in scripture but gain his own understanding and knowledge.
All religions, philosophies, and organizations are false, they are only hiding the truth.
One should ask, “Do I accept death and aging?” If you do not accept this, then do something about it and follow my example."

http://deathlesseducation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/how-to-do-meditation-or-penance.html

In Siddha teachings the Left eye = Moon and the Right eye = Sun
an interesting parallel in Horus

Horus was the ancient Egyptian sky god who was usually depicted as a falcon, most likely a lanner or peregrine falcon.[9] His right eye was associated with the sun god, Ra. The eye symbol represents the marking around the eye of the falcon, including the "teardrop" marking sometimes found below the eye. The mirror image, or left eye, sometimes represented the moon and the god Djehuti (Thoth).[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus
Below is more information on Siddha teachings

There is a small hole of the size of needle tip in the center of the Pupil of the eyes. This hole is covered by Karma as 7 layers.
Soul is present in the center of the head in the place where our two eyes meet internally. The characteristics of the soul is divine light and divine fire. This divine light of soul is displaying itself in our two eyes and this divine light in our eyes is what covered by the layer of Karma mentioned above.
Do Understand clearly the divine light of our soul is not the outside light that we are able to see. This divine light of our soul cannot be induced by any materialistic thing. This can be kindled only by the divine light of other Soul by the way of eyes. This can be done only by a SarGuru.
During Deekshai Sadguru pierces the layer of karma and lits the divine light of our eyes by his divine light present in his eyes. This process is what is called as taking birth again. One who has taken Deekshai is called as Twice born.

http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/tiruvadi-deekshai-baptizing-fire


Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it. -Matthew 7:14


And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?- Matthew 7:3-5


"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.- Matthew 6:22

In Tamil Nadu Jesus is considered a Siddhar
there's even a book he is supposed to have written in Tamil " The Book of Love "

When thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light... Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness" (Luke 11:34-35). "If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."


Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."- Matthew 19:24
coy little basta..

quite recently we've found

mammalian eye exhibits a "spontaneous and visible light-induced ultraweak photon emission."


The light that emanates through the "window of the soul," the human eye, is not "imagined," but real and these biophotons contain energy and information (wave-particle complementarity of Light), capable of transforming our understanding of one another, and ourselves.

I recommend reading it through
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/confirmed-eye-emits-actual-light-biophotons

" Left hand
Right hand
Both hands...
Change!!!
He who eats
with the hand of worship = Penance practise using the eyes
need not be depleted.
The conscious ones = Have Magnetoreception
capable of abandoning sleep = like birds
need not die...
they can live forever." - Tirumular


the retinas in particular have been theorized to serve as magnetoreceptors

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8098713

There's certainly more to the eye... get it ....sigh...:(

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aash32YctTw/UfUSJL3U4ZI/AAAAAAAADzA/Vjzvvdu_FjQ/s1600/Vallalar-394x520.gif

“Whatever a thing is and whatever is its state, wisdom is to see the True thing in it”

Warmheart
08-31-2017, 02:25 PM
I did read a bit about Ramalinga Svamigal, and his thoughts are a bit similar to those of some other schools of Eastern thought. But then his teaching reveals something highly disturbing (just like many of Eastern teachings).

There is a big, and I mean really really big "IF", which stops my trust and reverence at those teachings at the very start. Those teachings deny very life - they demand from their followers to drop their families, to go live in the woods, etc., etc., etc. Just to get physical deathlessness? So what would be the point in everlasting physical life if you deny it and basically don't need it?

While many points in the teachings can be considered as eternal truth (e.g. God is Love is Light, etc., no questions here), some stink by a very dangerous sectarian thoughts. I would definitely not want to live 70-80 years (which is standard life of those who speak about physically long life, and in my view it is extremely short) in some woods isolated from everyone and everything. I understand that we are all part of One, but personally I'd like to live my life as myself, without dropping my "ego", without disintegrating (?integrating?) myself in some deep Ocean of Eternity - I think such possibility of self-disintegration will always be here as kind of last resort, and I don't understand why this last resort is considered as "eternal life", smells more like total death to me. Nothing to discover about world, just voluntarily drop your 7 bodies of existence and "integrate" (or rather disintegrate) in Eternity.

I don't want to hurt anyone feelings here, I am just sharing my thoughts on this. There is physical suicide, where you kill only physical body. But some such teachings smell like total suicide and death of all your bodies: physical, astral, ether, etc. under guise of eternity.

Kibric
08-31-2017, 03:42 PM
There is a big, and I mean really really big "IF", which stops my trust and reverence at those teachings at the very start. Those teachings deny very life - they demand from their followers to drop their families, to go live in the woods, etc., etc., etc. Just to get physical deathlessness? So what would be the point in everlasting physical life if you deny it and basically don't need it?

There are traditions that demand those but they aren't Siddhar
and I completely agree

But Vallalaar doesn't demand dropping family or going to live in the woods alone
he always taught that you should be among other people in society
nor do real Siddha teachings
In fact he encouraged people not to do that
He always used to use the example of a shop keeper
who achieved Gnana Deham by doing Penance while he worked
citing that running off to the woods doesn't solve anything


and I don't understand why this last resort is considered as "eternal life", smells more like total death to me. Nothing to discover about world, just voluntarily drop your 7 bodies of existence and "integrate" (or rather disintegrate) in Eternity.


This is just a process to give you " heavenly light body " as the Taoists call it
a new body made of Light, the total opposite of death, complete transcendence of the cycle of birth and death
A True Human Existence as the Siddhas call it

In no way is Gnana Deham (Rainbow light body) (heavenly light body) suicide or destruction of any body
astral or otherwise

The point is not just overcoming physical death
but returning to a True Human existence free from the cycle of birth and death
Siddhas believe that this Human experience called life we are living is not a True Natural State for a human
they believe we were once beings made of Light and that is our True existence

Thanks for sharing your thoughts
you make some good points about some eastern traditions

Warmheart
08-31-2017, 04:05 PM
Vallalaar doesn't demand dropping family or going to live in the woods alone
he always taught that you should be among other people in society
nor do real Siddha teachings
Probably. I was judging by description of his life from Wikipedia and it was very ascetic.

The point is not just overcoming physical death
but returning to a True Human existence
Siddhas believe that this Human experience called life we are living is not a True Natural State for a human
they believe we were once beings made of Light and that is our True existence
There is truly something unnatural in current state of human's life. But I think we miss a bridge, a bridge of knowledge, which would allow to agree with such position about some other True existence. Perhaps you have some sources which would tell more about the practices in this teaching? I think some additional work should be done before working with "eye rays". If you aren't bound by secrecy, how did you receive Deekshai from Saint Vallalar? According to various sources, Saint Vallalar vanished in a violet fog in his locked room and was never seen after.

I feel like being on the edge of high cliff before falling down when I read some teachers who tell about Brahmacharya, about leaving cycle of life and death, etc. Nowhere yet I found as precise teaching as in books of Sri Satyananda Sarasvati, and he is precise to the point: do this and that, and you achieve that. He also described a lot of false conditions of Samadhi, when people think they suddenly know all and received enlightenment, but in fact they only caught a glimpse of much greater force. Does Saint Vallalar's teaching have to do anything with Kundalini, or totally skips any working with it?

Awani
08-31-2017, 04:19 PM
Those teachings deny very life - they demand from their followers to drop their families, to go live in the woods, etc...

I agree with this. The whole outlook and concept of trying to escape Samsara is a trap in itself I think, and perhaps for the select few it works (who knows). But I have - through my own pilgrimage - come to the conclusion that the way OUT is IN.

In other words EMBRACE Samsara. Look at the deaths and rebirths as waves, and that your "soul" is floating on these ways in/out of different lives... almost like caught in a whirlpool. BUT if you learn to surf then you can RIDE the waves.

When you ride Samsara, then you are done.

The way out is in.

:p

Schmuldvich
08-31-2017, 05:17 PM
In other words EMBRACE Samsara. Look at the deaths and rebirths as waves, and that your "soul" is floating on these ways in/out of different lives... almost like caught in a whirlpool. BUT if you learn to surf then you can RIDE the waves.

When you ride Samsara, then you are done.
I love this!

Anyone can be thrown around and thrashed by a wave, but very few can actually ride the wave and have a higher experience. This person is not God--they cannot stop or steer the wave, nor has this person defeated the wave (they are still being driven/taken away by it...) but they are certainly having a more wonderful and fulfilling experience than the person being thrashed around violently under the wave.

Well put! Great analogy!

Awani
08-31-2017, 08:09 PM
I love this!

Thanks.


Anyone can be thrown around and thrashed by a wave, but very few can actually ride the wave and have a higher experience. This person is not God--they cannot stop or steer the wave, nor has this person defeated the wave (they are still being driven/taken away by it...) but they are certainly having a more wonderful and fulfilling experience than the person being thrashed around violently under the wave.

That's a great addition/clarification, Bro.

https://media.giphy.com/media/ceK5e0DXc7Zh6/giphy.gif

:p

Kibric
08-31-2017, 09:00 PM
Perhaps you have some sources which would tell more about the practices in this teaching?
There are 28 books by him but most of them haven't been translated from Tamil yet
here's a PDF in english with precise details on the teachings

Education for deathlessness

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjA87DH-YHWAhUrDMAKHRFyDusQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vallalyaar.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F02%2FSpiritual-Education-for-Deathlessness.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFMi4JWySJFd1dOPwaMKgVV0SaBZQ (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjA87DH-YHWAhUrDMAKHRFyDusQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vallalyaar.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F02%2FSpiritual-Education-for-Deathlessness.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFMi4JWySJFd1dOPwaMKgVV0SaBZQ)

They are a funny lot , visiting them and talking with them is the best way to learn their teachings
They used to rely on oral teachings face to face but are slowly catching up

how did you receive Deekshai from Saint Vallalar? According to various sources, Saint Vallalar vanished in a violet fog in his locked room and was never seen after.
I went to Tami Nadu at my lowest point , spent all my money on plane ticket to get there, and was directed to him by the man who translated the PDF above ,
Saint Vallalar is very much alive


Does Saint Vallalar's teaching have to do anything with Kundalini, or totally skips any working with it?
No his teaching is not Kundalini oriented

a bit more detail on Siddhas

The Tamil Siddhas are outside system-builders; their whole technique is to jolt people out of their intellectual ruts, and their conventional, barren, morality. They laid before their audience an abrasive, shocking, uncompromising message exhorting them to shed their delusions, pretensions, and empty orthodoxies in favor of an intense, direct, personal confrontation with truth.

They are the "un-tethered", non-conformist, spiritual aspirants, yearning for a direct and natural approach to, and a more intense experience of, the absolute truth. They reject the value and prestige of the scriptures, which remain the privilege of the few in Hinduism. The Tamil Siddhas may be considered as "scripture less" or "bookless" or nirgrantha school of Hinduism, as they are detached from any scriptural authority. The Tamil Siddhas belong to a non-conformist, "counter-tradition". What is meant by "counter tradition" is more than that "which opposes tradition". It is the "tradition which opposes". The Siddhas challenged many of the accepted beliefs and practices of the Hindu society and thought. They denounced idol and ritualistic worship and petitioner prayers as fetters holding back the soul from liberation

http://www.discerning-wisdom.com/siddhas/
They are very different from Brahmins and Yogis


He also described a lot of false conditions of Samadhi, when people think they suddenly know all and received enlightenment, but in fact they only caught a glimpse of much greater force
" One who follows the path of Yoga is a Yogi. The final Attainment in this path of Yoga is Samadhi only,
One who follows the path of Gnana is a Gnani. The final Attainment in this path is union with Supreme Lord (Supreme infinite Light) "

There are many stages after Samadhi , over 40, and your right many spiritual teachers stop at Samadhi thinking " they suddenly know all and received enlightenment "

Warmheart
08-31-2017, 09:39 PM
There are 28 books by him but most of them haven't been translated from Tamil yet
here's a PDF with precise details on the teachings
Guess I have another language to learn after Saknskrit. I will definitely read this book.

There are many stages after Samadhi , over 40, and your right many spiritual teachers stop at Samadhi thinking " they suddenly know all and received enlightenment "
It seems I was a bit quick to judge it. I agree with what Awani wrote above, and it seems that nowadays there are a lot of weird Eastern teachings around, which are centered at various obscure philosophy with very anti-life goal with little to no real practice.

It will be also interesting to see how teachings of Saint Vallalar and his followers correlate with other Eastern teachings.

Luxus
09-01-2017, 07:04 PM
Kibric

So it all boils down to this eye yoga you do daily, I mean that is the actual process to achieve this deathlessness. So is the theory that whilst you are doing this eye yoga you are feeding/building-up the light body (astral body)? So it is not physical deathlessness right? And what about the ageing process how does this fit into this equation? I mean if a person is physically ageing it would be foolish of him to think that somehow he is going to be physically deathless.

I used to do martial arts from a young age so I always heard about people who were somehow going to use their chi to live longer but the truth is these techniques don't work, most these people look every bit their age.

Kibric
09-01-2017, 09:18 PM
So is the theory that whilst you are doing this eye yoga you are feeding/building-up the light body (astral body)? So it is not physical deathlessness right? And what about the ageing process how does this fit into this equation? I mean if a person is physically ageing it would be foolish of him to think that somehow he is going to be physically deathless.

The practise (eye yoga/called Penance) changes the human bodies biochemistry, putting it into a natural state of suspended animation
stopping aging all together or aging very slowly over a long time .Then starts converting the blood and bone, the physical body into Light, leading to Physical Immortality

When you reach the suspended animation state your consciousness can leave, wander around and practise Prakasysm (metempsychosis)
Many choose this instead , very few complete the whole process (Gnana Deham)
Sometimes their friends come along wrap them up and mummify them, centuries later we find the bodies they gave up in caves
it is the origin of Sokushinbutsu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

Some Siddhas try to keep the place they practise (eye yoga/Penance) very private
so others don't mummify them thinking they are dead, interrupting the process or their Jeevasamadhi state
The famous story of Christian Rosenkreuz in his preserved condition is very similar

I have been researching the changes in Brain chemistry that occur when someone practises (eye yoga)
and wondered if the Jeevasamadhi state and process brought on by the (eye yoga/Penance) is using the bodies natural radiation
to accelerate the evolution of organic matter (us/the physical body) resulting in a being composed of photons (Gnana Deham)
http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/deham.htm

Luxus
09-02-2017, 10:44 AM
Kibric,

Firstly I would like to know what the senior people within the group looked like. Did they look 10 years younger then they actually were or did they look their age. I myself have met teachers who will getup in front of a whole class and say practising such and such will slow the ageing process and extend life. I have found that these people almost always look their age and don't live any longer then anyone else.

It is not that I doubt such techniques did exist in the past but rather I realise we live in the kaliyuga when such knowledge (including Alchemy) has become distorted or lost.

Where can I read more about the actual eye yoga practice?

Warmheart
09-02-2017, 11:39 AM
Kibric,

Firstly I would like to know what the senior people within the group looked like. Did they look 10 years younger then they actually were or did they look their age.
I like how you ask it straight to the point :D

I am also interested in seeing actual eye yoga practice.

Luxus
09-02-2017, 02:32 PM
I like how you ask it straight to the point :D

I am also interested in seeing actual eye yoga practice.

"You will know them by their fruits"
Matthew 7:15-20

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 03:42 PM
I used to do martial arts from a young age so I always heard about people who were somehow going to use their chi to live longer but the truth is these techniques don't work, most these people look every bit their age.

Most likely because they didn't understand how to sublimated jing into chi, and then to turn their chi into vitality.

Luxus
09-02-2017, 05:00 PM
Most likely because they didn't understand how to sublimated jin into chi, and then to turn their chi into vitality.

Even the grand masters and lineage holder of the various taoist sects do not demonstrate bodies several years younger then their age, I looked for such people but I could not find them...apparently they are all up mountains or hiding in forests :)

Yes such things did exist in the past but it is like Alchemy, the truth is nobody has produced the philosophers stone for hundreds of years. We live in the kaliyuga, the winter of spiritual knowledge.

Schmuldvich
09-02-2017, 05:57 PM
Most likely because they didn't understand how to sublimated jin into chi, and then to turn their chi into vitality.

Can you expound on this a little, or share a link that explains this more?

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 06:22 PM
Even the grand masters and lineage holder of the various taoist sects do not demonstrate bodies several years younger then their age, I looked for such people but I could not find them...apparently they are all up mountains or hiding in forests :)

I would assume it's because the sect has very specific dogma and traditional practices, which do not incorporate alternative viewpoints. You go to X sect to learn X things, then you have to go to Y sect to learn Y things.


the truth is nobody has produced the philosophers stone for hundreds of years. We live in the kaliyuga, the winter of spiritual knowledge.

How true is this? ;)

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 06:37 PM
Can you expound on this a little, or share a link that explains this more?

Certainly :)

Jing, which I spelled wrong in the first post, is responsible for building up the body and procreation. It is the most dense of the Three Treasures in the Taoist tradition, and is compared to the immature "Golden Elixir". The only problem is that it readily putrefies itself. In essence, the starting matter of this tradition is the end matter, although it goes through various transmutations along its involution depending on how often it is worked, and what it is worked with. This depends on the awareness of the practitioner and at which 'point' the sublimation stops. Its superficial sublimation is pretty simple, you just circulate Jing through the main psychic channels of the human body. This will energize it through repetition to create chi. This is what most traditions will teach. The physical energy is able to move through the psychic channels because there is an overlapping 'blueprint' in order to maintain coherence.

The correct sublimation of Jing, in order to create vitality, occurs by the addition of the "external alchemical agent". This external alchemical agent is the Macrocosmic substance collected and used in the sublimation of Jing through the same approach as the superficial sublimation. This time it creates a 'generative force' which will sublimate into Vitality. The purefactive force of jing is transfered onto the Macrocosmic alchemical agent.

The same can be applied to the Chi in order to create Vitality. Or applied to Chi in order to create Shen -- spiritual vitality.

I've written about it before here:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4442-Samadhi.-Kundalini.-The-Red-Body.&p=42505#post42505

Schmuldvich
09-02-2017, 10:57 PM
Certainly :)

Jing, which I spelled wrong in the first post, is responsible for building up the body and procreation. It is the most dense of the Three Treasures in the Taoist tradition, and is compared to the immature "Golden Elixir". The only problem is that it readily putrefies itself. In essence, the starting matter of this tradition is the end matter, although it goes through various transmutations along its involution depending on how often it is worked, and what it is worked with. This depends on the awareness of the practitioner and at which 'point' the sublimation stops. Its superficial sublimation is pretty simple, you just circulate Jing through the main psychic channels of the human body. This will energize it through repetition to create chi. This is what most traditions will teach. The physical energy is able to move through the psychic channels because there is an overlapping 'blueprint' in order to maintain coherence.

The correct sublimation of Jing, in order to create vitality, occurs by the addition of the "external alchemical agent". This external alchemical agent is the Macrocosmic substance collected and used in the sublimation of Jing through the same approach as the superficial sublimation. This time it creates a 'generative force' which will sublimate into Vitality. The purefactive force of jing is transfered onto the Macrocosmic alchemical agent.

The same can be applied to the Chi in order to create Vitality. Or applied to Chi in order to create Shen -- spiritual vitality.

I've written about it before here:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4442-Samadhi.-Kundalini.-The-Red-Body.&p=42505#post42505

Awesome! Thank you for sharing.

This is a concept I have been aiming to further develop. My chi (...or jing? not sure) is almost overflowing! I would like to learn how to harness, master, and develop it better but I am very ignorant in these basic areas.

Kiorionis
09-03-2017, 05:12 PM
Awesome! Thank you for sharing.

This is a concept I have been aiming to further develop. My chi (...or jing? not sure) is almost overflowing! I would like to learn how to harness, master, and develop it better but I am very ignorant in these basic areas.

My pleasure!

I might have some suggestions. If you bring your awareness to the center of the jing or chi in question, where would you place it within the body?

Schmuldvich
09-03-2017, 07:23 PM
I might have some suggestions. If you bring your awareness to the center of the jing or chi in question, where would you place it within the body?

My forehead ("third eye"), which I believe is more developed than the other chakras in my body. My crown chakra is fairly developed as well, but not to the degree of my third eye. As far as other chakras go, most are underdeveloped (comparatively) in my body, with the exception of my sacral chakra which is possibly my most sensitive chakra but not most powerful. When upset or concerned, this chakra flares with energy (jing? chi?). I'd love for you to help me! Ideally I would be interested in small mental exercises I can do that will further develop a good jing/chi flow and balance!

Avatar
09-03-2017, 08:08 PM
Schmuldvich

What I understand and have experienced is.

Jing, chi, shen, xin.
This roughly translates to body, breath, mind,blood.

Chi is breath and is the motive force of xin. Breath and blood.
The secret of tai chi is influencing the blood through movement. Breath and blood allow the nerves to work, this produces another known as nerve force, or the activity of the nerves. This force is most easily taken hold of through the power of contraction. Contraction of nerves is known as strength. A secret of old martial arts is you have full power over contraction at any given point in time. Frog technique of the shaolin. I do not train in this. Yet am able to use it as you all are easily. I can exert the full force of my entire body instantly. It also trains physical vitality greatly. As boxing is a match of endurance, preserving strength. In this method you could exert your full force consistently for a period of time. If fully exerted I can last 5 minutes.
If trained you can last longer. Isometrics train this specifically. Hence why gymnasts on the rings are so strong. NOW! To the subject.

The third eye is the mind.
Yet we all have minds.
How can the mind ever open?
It is the opening of the nervous system.
What is meant by This?
It is release of subtle tension in the nervous system.
Subtle tension released means the flesh no longer holds that sensory experience. The easiest is tactile, taste, smell.
The hardest is the eyes and ears.
When the senses flow freely, then it is attention which commands the senses. You see the tree yet feel it flow, taste it's leaves, smell it even though you are far from it.
I have not released my eyes nor ears. Those are extremely hard to release, but honestly I have never focused on doing so.
It is not my goal.

Samadhi is mental control. Mental. Control is control of attention. For the only part of the mind itself that you can control is attention. Attention is foundation.
Through control of attention you can do many feats. Including releasing subtle tension from the body.
Remember you are a giant body.
The copper wire and electricity are one.
Now now.
On longevity there is a rarely talked about practice.
Why is it rarely talked about? Simple. It's mastery is not often had.
The body ages and dies.
You cannot halt age. Thus how is death prevented?
There are two potential ways. Theoretically you could enter a form of stasis. I have heard of this yet am not skilled it in. A form of hibernation slowing age. Like extreme calorie restriction.
The second method is that which has been mentioned on and off by every other ascetic. Yet non claim mastery of it. That is rejuvenation of the body. Rejuvenate the body. It is an ongoing process. See. It is like a flash fire. Like lighting a line of gun powder. It ignites quickly and then is done.
Rejuvenate over and over again and you have longevity. When done correctly the entire bodies skin turns red due to extreme vaso dilation. I know the ascetic sivananda spoke about this a bit. An it was the path of tummo mentioned by Naropa of Buddhism. Yet this inner fire is no visualized heat. It is a heat brought on by pranayama practice. To be more direct, physiological coercion.

Kiorionis
09-03-2017, 08:32 PM
My forehead ("third eye"), which I believe is more developed than the other chakras in my body. My crown chakra is fairly developed as well, but not to the degree of my third eye. As far as other chakras go, most are underdeveloped (comparatively) in my body, with the exception of my sacral chakra which is possibly my most sensitive chakra but not most powerful. When upset or concerned, this chakra flares with energy (jing? chi?). I'd love for you to help me! Ideally I would be interested in small mental exercises I can do that will further develop a good jing/chi flow and balance!

Well first off, the chakras are on a different frequency from jing and chi. Like Avatar says, they are much more physical energies. Chakras are less dense.

So far my only suggestion is to research into Mantak Chia, and his practices for opening the Microcosm orbit. Practicing this specific breathing exercise will harmonise the chakras and help you begin building awareness of jing.

@Avatar
Very interesting post. Concerning the first theoretical approach to preventing death by entering stasis. I have heard that this technique is different than what most think. If you have different understanding I'd love to hear it.

From what I've heard, the stasis of the physical body is achieved after creating the immortal fetus, or ascending body. The body is then put into stasis but the consciousness while traveling is still linked and uses it as a fixt point for life. The downfall to this approach is that the body shrivels with atrophy (the brain and spinal cord apparently remain healthy). If someone returns from such a practice, after many years, I doubt they would live long thereafter.

But that is just heresay

Avatar
09-03-2017, 09:13 PM
Mentak chia is a good read. Yet is method is faulty an will not cause rejuvenation. Though he is correct in saying the reproductive organs are part of it.
Yet his method is faulty. An the method is key.
Chakras are jing,chi,shen,xin.
Body,breath,mind,blood. Cut the blood flow off to an arm, it will go numb this mind cannot enter it (cannot feel it). You have no strength can not move it. Given enough time it will fall off.

There are two cranial nerves that descend from the brain into the body. The spinal and vagus nerve. The vagus nerve splits into two branches and becomes the sympathetic and parasympathetic system.
What's more important for life? Spinal nerve or vagus?
Vagus is the answer.

Chakras are partially mental.
It is like this. Can you pop your back like you pop your knuckle?
If you can, then your chakras can still be opened further.
When the chakras on both left and right side are fully open you will no longer he able to pop your back.
For all tension will be gone. All tension being gone the mind flows through the body freely without resistance.
The mind is not only in the head, the chakras are the aspects of the mind that exist in the body.
That is why the are called centers or consciousness. The truth is the mind is the nervous system.
That is why even an ant had consciousness even though it's brain is so tiny. Brain is simply junction box. A tree has no brain yet reacts. Even though the reaction is slow.
You are, one big brain.

Immortality is not stasis. Immortality is biological rejuvinatio of all the systems. An invigoration.
If asked i will give the best 3 methods for releasing subtle tension from the nervous system.

As for stasis. That is actually Easyer than the former rejuvenation.

Stasis is 3 fold.
First all subtle tension must he released from the nervous system. This is the prime requirement for both practices.
Second Samadhi must be mastered.
Samadhi is extremely easy to practice. People enter temporary lower levels of Samadhi constantly. Samadhi is an extreme exersice of a foundational function of the mammalian brain.
The next part is tricky though. See clearing the nervous system is a pain unless you are dedicated. Samadhi is a pain unless you have a little dedication.
It is the leaving the body to roam while in stasis that is the trick. This is done by the abused word kundalini.
Kundalini comes through manipulating the vagus nerves two ganglia. NOW kundalini only comes in a semi trance state. Trance is another word for Samadhi.
Samadhi is the technique to sustain and control kundalini.
This is why control of breathing is important while entering Samadhi. For it is breathing that makes the condition for kundalini.
Now. As you enter deeper states of Samadhi breathing slows. So gradually breathing slows. And thus slowly by slowly, the heart beat and breathing slows down. Kundalini will appear before stasis ever happens. You must trek on. The deeper the Samadhi the slower the heartbeat. The deepest forms of Samadhi surpass the deepest states of sleep. You are basically dead at this point. Yet you are awake because of kundalini.
Oh. Description I am so sorry. Kundalini is like an intense pressure/buzzing in the entire being that rises up. When it hits the head, you will pop out of the body. It is not like astral projection. You do not need to be asleep at all. In fact the first time you will most likely be confused no realizing you are still laying down.
I do apologize. I am not the most well written person.
So I apologize if my explanations jump paragraphs.

Luxus
09-03-2017, 09:53 PM
As your brain ages (starting at 25) your body ages. As above so below...maybe this eye yoga is a way to slow the ageing of the brain and thus slow the ageing of the body.

Kibric
09-04-2017, 03:24 PM
" Firstly I would like to know what the senior people within the group looked like. "

There are no classes no groups or audience's
one on one teaching/training is private , Siddhas are strict on this


" Did they look 10 years younger then they actually were or did they look their age "

Siddhas i met in Tamil Nadu looked roughly 30
but were 60-100+ years old

Depending on how much you practise eye yoga/penance will determine how youthful you remain
lots of practise and the Siddha/person will stay looking 25-30 years of age even if they are 60-100+


"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.

The culmination of practising eye yoga is the jeevasamadhi state (natural suspended animation) in which the body stops decaying and ageing all together
or decays/ages very slowly over a long time, the bones become supple the skin becomes smooth and taught
eyes turn red/bloodshot and the body and sweat smells sweet


" It is not that I doubt such techniques did exist in the past but rather I realise we live in the kaliyuga when such knowledge
(including Alchemy) has become distorted or lost."

the link below has some lifespans of famous Siddhas and their yugas
http://www.siddhars.com/aboutus.htm


" Where can I read more
about the actual eye yoga practice? "

Who is philanthropist Vallalar - English Book
Sanathana Dharma - English Book
Guru of the World Vallalar - English Book
Spiritual education for deathlessness - English Book

The below Pdf has a list of books on Page 8
use the contact information within to request more books, they would be happy to help
many of the books are in the process of being translated into english
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0ahUKEwiOrrrX4ovWAhWmKMAKHdpBCsUQFghoMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vallalyaar.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F02%2FTiru-ArutPrakasa-Vallalar_English1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHWRRhtF67ysKn9NQ6edtew0HBflw

You can all also practise Trāṭaka, which is a simpler method of eye yoga/penance very easily on your own
without needing Deekshai or training from a Siddha, this is outlined in the link below
Trāṭaka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C4%81%E1%B9%ADaka
but there are many sites that go into further detail


" I am also interested in
seeing actual eye yoga practice. "

As far as observing someone practising eye yoga/penance
you can try practising Trāṭaka in a mirror, maybe a person on youtube has uploaded a video of themselves practising eye yoga/penance ?
or go to Tamil Nadu, find and talk with a Siddha, receive Deekshai
they would be happy to show you

you can only learn so much observing others without trying it yourself
no matter the meditation method


"You will know them by their fruits"

but that does mean going to meet them in person, having your own 1st hand experience and trying it for yourself
scepticism is understandable and healthy but if you aren't willing to test it
with your own 1st hand experiences it remains a useless tool

The fruits of Eye yoga/penance comes from the continued practising of it
like football or card tricks your skill and progress increases the more you practise
you cant fully learn and understand a technique/method just by reading and observing

This webpage has the locations and directions and a map too many Siddhas in the Jeevasamadhi state
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/jeevasamadhi.htm
you can go visit them, talk with them, get taught by them and see for yourself like i did, there is no official body/organization to go through
its all up to you

If there's anything i would like people to take away from this thread
is that one of the core beliefs of a Siddha is not to take anyone's word for it
to go out and see for yourself, go out and find Siddhas ask them questions
try Eye yoga/Penance/Trāṭaka yourself and start your very own quest
its only your direct 1st hand experience and understanding that matters

I hope I've been as detailed as possible

Warmheart
09-04-2017, 04:18 PM
Who is philanthropist Vallalar - English Book
Sanathana Dharma - English Book
Guru of the World Vallalar - English Book
Spiritual education for deathlessness - English Book

The below Pdf has a list of books on Page 8
use the contact information within to request more books, they would be happy to help
many of the books are in the process of being translated into english
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0ahUKEwiOrrrX4ovWAhWmKMAKHdpBCsUQFghoMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vallalyaar.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F02%2FTiru-ArutPrakasa-Vallalar_English1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHWRRhtF67ysKn9NQ6edtew0HBflw
Thank you for the list, I will look up those books.

You can all also practise Trāṭaka, which is a simpler method of eye yoga/penance very easily on your own
without needing Deekshai or training from a Siddha, this is outlined in the link below
Trāṭaka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C4%81%E1%B9%ADaka
but there are many sites that go into further detail
Indeed, Trattaka is one of Shatkarmas, and it is widely used in general practices, which involve Ajna Chakra. Personally I didn't include this practice into my daily routine yet. Also I have quite bad eye sight (I barely see anything without goggles), how will it work out with eye yoga/Penance methods?

As far as observing someone practising eye yoga/penance
you can try practising Trāṭaka in a mirror, maybe a person on youtube has uploaded a video of themselves practising eye yoga/penance ?

Observing was a common figure of Russian speech, by observing I meant "learning/reading" :)
I might go to Tamil Dani n some nearby future after I sort out some things. It is always better to learn firsthand.

Kiorionis
09-04-2017, 04:59 PM
Thank you very much for that informative post, Avatar :)

Kibric
09-05-2017, 12:55 AM
Personally I didn't include this practice into my daily routine yet. Also I have quite bad eye sight (I barely see anything without goggles), how will it work out with eye yoga/Penance methods?
Trāṭaka is good for your eye's , done slowly


how will it work out with eye yoga/Penance methods?
Penance is a form of Trāṭaka, that can only be done after the eyes/pupil/retina have changed after receiving Deekshai
you get a specific sensation that is within and around your eye's, Penance/eye yoga is the focusing your attention on that specific sensation


During Deekshai Sadguru pierces the layer of karma and lits the divine light of our eyes by his divine light present in his eyes. This process is what is called as taking birth again. One who has taken Deekshai is called as Twice born
changes in the eyes/pupil/retina caused by Deekshai change the chemistry of the eyes

" The conscious ones = Have Magnetoreception
capable of abandoning sleep = like birds
need not die...
they can live forever." - Tirumular
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirumular


Activation of cryptochrome may affect the light-sensitivity of retinal neurons, with the overall result that the bird can "see" the magnetic field. "
http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/magnetism-in-action.html


Foley also found that human cryptochrome is sensitive to blue light. It only managed to restore the magnetic sense of flies when they were bathed in this colour.

These simple experiments show that human cryptohrome can act as a magnetic sensor. This doesn’t mean that it does, much less that humans can sense magnetic fields. Plugging human cryptochrome into an alien environment like the body of a fly tells you very little about what it does in its native surroundings.

Roswitha Wiltschko, one of the scientists who first discovered the magnetic sense of birds, says, “To sense the magnetic field, one does not only need a molecule like cryptochrome, but also an apparatus that picks up the changes in that molecule and mediates it to the brain. Drosophila obviously has this apparatus, but humans? I have my doubts.” Steven Reppert, who led the new study, is also cautious. However, he notes that Cry2 is heavily active in the human retina. “It’s beautifully poised to sense light but we don’t know if it has the downstream pathways that communicate magnetic information to the brain. The possibility exists.”


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/06/21/humans-have-a-magnetic-sensor-in-our-eyes-but-can-we-see-magnetic-fields/#.Wa31M-Rwbcc

Kiorionis
09-05-2017, 01:28 AM
Deekshai translates into?

Kibric
09-05-2017, 01:41 AM
Deekshai translates into?
roughly Transmission
in Vallalars resurfaced method it is through the eye's
http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-deekshai-baptizing-with-fire/

Luxus
09-05-2017, 10:36 AM
Thanks for all the info Kibric.

Like I said I have no doubt that people before the kaliyuga were masters of spiritual Sciences, yantra, tantra, mantra, Alchemy etc but such things are very very rare in our age. Yes we are more technically advanced but at the same time less spiritually advanced.

The guy in the vids below seems to be a big deal within this movement...would you regard him as one of the deathless, unageing ones? What will they do when this man dies, will they make-up a story about him flying up to the clouds so not to disappoint followers?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDW80E1TI3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpCsmwsp4po&list=PL81-JbGtsn0SQu-1bWk-fPgfC8cSMF0mk

I remember one of my teachers telling a story about how when a senior guru died that when they cut open his body his insides had not aged, they were like the organs of a 20 year old he said! I had to laugh to myself, well I guess saying that he got old and was no different from others would be disappointing. But the truth is you age from the inside out not the outside in so if you had the interior of a 20 year old then you would also have the exterior of a 20 year old.

Kibric
09-05-2017, 11:28 AM
Thanks for all the info Kibric.
Happy to help :p


Like I said I have no doubt that people before the kaliyuga were masters of spiritual Sciences, yantra, tantra, mantra, Alchemy etc but such things are very very rare in our age. Yes we are more technically advanced but at the same time less spiritually advanced.
They are rare and special when you find them.

I was taught that the Kaliyuga only exists because we are creating it
Destiny is for the man who makes his own path, Fate is for the man who is subject to others Destiny

The busy technological world makes the mind fast and inner monologue annoying , like if we stop thinking we will cease to exist or be unable to function normally
We can see this is not true from Mushin in martial arts

This documentary has some great insights into how Hermits use the natural environment to develop wisdom
Amongst White Clouds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FumyvVOVbaY
My two favourite quotes from it

Even the work is peaceful here

There's nothing really too say


The guy in the vids below seems to be a big deal within this movement...would you regard him as one of the deathless, unageing ones? What will they do when this man dies, will they make-up a story about him flying up to the clouds so not to disappoint followers?

No I wouldn't regard him as deathless.
maybe they will tell stories

To find a rare and special thing from my experience Methods/transmissions etc..it costs no money is not commercial, will not turn an honest you away, there are no secrets
all the Knowledge and understanding is available to you, you set you own level of progress , its given into your hand freely.


I remember one of my teachers telling a story about how when a senior guru died that when they cut open his body his insides had not aged, they were like the organs of a 20 year old he said! I had to laugh to myself, well I guess saying that he got old and was no different from others would be disappointing. But the truth is you age from the inside out not the outside in so if you had the interior of a 20 year old then you would also have the exterior of a 20 year old.

The inside of his body not aging indicates he was just starting to achieve the Jeevasamadhi state but did not carry on or complete the process before he passed

If the undisturbed Coffin is found empty this is a sign of The completion of the process
Lots of Taoist graves used to have a history of being found empty or with only the clothes/swords of the deceased in the coffins

Avatar
09-05-2017, 04:12 PM
Kibric.
Read through your posts.
You mention Jeeva Samadhi.
You are correct that this leads to deathless if I am understanding you correctly.

Jeeva Samadhi is conducting the life force of the body upwards internally into the consciousness is it not?
The eyes and ears being the two main carriers of consciousness.
This is a method very rarely spoken about yet is the supreme path is it not ?
All methods try to achieve this. Some work better than others.
Yet I believe there is an aspect missing.
Being able to do this is the preliminary for deathlessness.
If you cannot do this fervently will success there is not chance for deathlessness.
Doing so in itself leads to clearing the tension from the body, leads to natural celibacy, and increases the inner fire. The inner fire and the process are actually the same. It is this process which makes inner fire.

Yet there is an aspect missing.
It is why death still takes those on the deathless path.
I apologize for being blunt and crude.
Pranayama done correctly agitates the entire nervous system making it shake with intensity.
When the upward course of jeeva into consciousness is strong, one must engage in the most crude act with pranayama.
There is no worry for your celibacy could not be broken even by the most beautiful women.
The lowest rushes upwards with heat into consciousness. The bodies skin turns solid red, the body itself engulfed by inner heat of immense strength. Powerful yet not burning. An in this way, the ritual of rejuvenation is done. This is how the blood is made new.
the jing is turned in chi, which is turned into shen.
You become brand new.
yet this itself does not make one deathless. It is being able to do this ritual over and over, and over and over and over.

This is the cliché legend is it not? That which can only be done when jeeva flows into consciousness with intensity.
This is what both naropa taught as well as sivananda.
The hard part is, the way in which you make jeeva flow upwards. For efficiency does matter.
Efficiency matters for a good reason. The ritual of rejuvenation is in opposition to jeeva Samadhi.
You are rising up that which most fervently wants to escape. So your ability to make jeeva flow into consciousness strongly must be efficient. The quicker you can strengthen jeeva flowing into consciousness the more you can preform the ritual. The ritual must be preformed many a times before ageing halts.
I do believe we are on the same topic here. Correct me if I am wrong.

A note for those who have not known it. Deathlessness is a miracle anyone would seek if experienced.
The closest you have ever been to it, is when you were a small child. When you moved your body out of joy, not out of obligation. When moving the body felt good because it was new. When being alive is bliss because all experience is vivid and great. To age is to rot. You are literally a fire being dying through the very thing that keeps you living. Burning to death slowly. The cold fire of rotting. through fire you die, an through fire you may renew yourself.
The eternal living body is mastery of jeeva.
Correct me if we are not speaking of the same thing. Yet I do believe we are.
Although half of what I am speaking of is considered taboo. Held for and done only by the greatest of masters. For failure reduces you to a beast. As a man may become deathless, an immortal may become a beast and die. The eternal spirit, if it does exist, is the half way point inbetween physical immortality and being a beast. Immortality is when the body becomes saturated with so much spirit it no longer ages. Yet this is done by making spirit corporal in a sense, and combining it with the body. Hence why I mention the red body. The reddening of the flesh during the ritual. When you take on the appearance of the Christian devil, being of a solid red color for a couple hours.

Kibric
09-05-2017, 11:36 PM
You are correct that this leads to deathless if I am understanding you correctly.

Jeeva Samadhi is conducting the life force of the body upwards internally into the consciousness is it not?
A good explanation of Jeevasamadhi

Jeeva Samadhi however is entirely different from the other types mentioned above, including Maha samadhi mentioned on another page on this site and can only be achieved by great yogis. It is a very advanced samadhi state closely related to the nirvikalpa samadhi state but then permanent. In Maha samadhi the body will decay over time and the energy will leave the body upon death. In Jeeva samadhi you cannot say the body dies nor can you say it is still alive, however the energy will remain in and around the body as if it were still alive and the body will not decay over time either (or extremely slowly as in some cases). This is a state where Siddhas enters into the samadhi state at their own will after completion of their mission on earth and their mind completely dissolved into the Divine, They stop the functioning of the body and mind.

This state can be done by them either after being enclosed or before enclosure, as they choose and as per the instructions they give totTheir disciples/followers. Stopping the body functions, the Siddha ensures by his spiritual achievement that the life does not go out of the body. This body will never or extremely slowly decay for thousands of years because the magnetic force in the body now acts as the life force (prana) in this body. In this state of suspended animation the breathing and blood circulation completely stops but the pranic forces keep the body cells nourished and alive. Then as invisible forces, They continue guiding mankind towards spiritual upliftment. There is a possibility that the Siddha can dematerialize his body from the tomb and materialize it elsewhere in some different location and carry out the mission for another span of years! For example Sadasiva Brahmendra has 3 Jeeva samadhi's at different locations all quite powerful and some say he is still around. In Jeeva Samadhi, the physical body of the Siddha remains intact and alive for thousands of years

https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/jeevasamadhi.htm


The bodies skin turns solid red, the body itself engulfed by inner heat of immense strength. Powerful yet not burning. An in this way, the ritual of rejuvenation is done. This is how the blood is made new

The cold fire of rotting. through fire you die, an through fire you may renew yourself.
The eternal living body is mastery of jeeva.
Correct me if we are not speaking of the same thing. Yet I do believe we are.
We are talking about using the same element/Fire but different methods

Each element has a path to deathlessness. Water, Earth, Air, Fire/Light/Inner Heat
there are various methods for each element which transform the body into an Immortal body

example, methods that use Water, the end stages are the physical body dissolving into a Water and reforming into a Water/Immortal Body

The Tummo method is one of the ways that use Fire/Inner Heat
with The Red Skin being a side effect of the practise

yet this itself does not make one deathless. It is being able to do this ritual over and over, and over and over and over.
This Tummo method can be continued after the Physical Immortal body has been achieved, until the yogi's body is either transformed into Fire/Immortal body or the body burns up
It is very hard to learn because it is very dangerous without Guidance

Pranayama done correctly
Penance is also one of the various methods that use the element Fire/Light but the Pranayama is automatic and the Skin doesn't Redden
The Inner Heat/Fire is Kindled and directed by Jothi(Light/Fire) present in the eyes,
instead of the body burning up or transforming into Fire/Immortal Body which happens at culmination of the Tummo method
the Jeevasamadhi state sets in and the body is slowly Dissolved (converted) and reassembled into Light (Gnana Deham)

Kiorionis
09-06-2017, 12:56 AM
roughly Transmission
in Vallalars resurfaced method it is through the eye's
http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-deekshai-baptizing-with-fire/

Quite curious, on account of how when someone ingests psuchedelics, the pupils dilate and the third eye is stimulated.

Warmheart
09-13-2017, 03:15 AM
So while planning my visit to those Deathless peeps, I was reading materials on Vallalyaar site (http://www.vallalyaar.com/) for the past two days and it seems to be very contradictory and somewhat creepy:

1. Deekshai seems to be analogous to Shaktipat but seems very... fakey, basically any person (especially impressionable) can feel "something" when someone other looks into his/her eyes. Meanwhile Deathless Gurus claim to have exclusive rights to grant this Deekshai and, as such, they claim monopoly on Divine Wisdom.

2. Deathless people seem to greatly disregard any Yoga practices and they totally deny Pranayama. They put their teaching highly above all that, with exclusive rights to grant access to Divinity.

3. They barely have any of their own practices except some highly primitive Penance, which requires no effort except focusing at something in your eyes which you can get exclusively from some Guru.

4. They wrote too much on worshiping their Gurus and need to make donations. If Vallalar could make gold out of the air (as some stories say), couldn't they just live... without donations? Just by making gold here and there from time to time?

5. There is little to no evidence from them that any of them actually lived for more than 100 years. Their texts don't show a glimpse of knowledge of someone who lived for over 100 years, and there is little transcendental knowledge in it. Everyone can claim to be 100+ years old, but one needs to act like one too, their texts are full of filler and some old morale like "eat only pure-veg food" and "drop any illegal habits" (I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).

Also they say here http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-deekshai-baptizing-with-fire/ in pt.5 in red letters - don't worship demi-gods, but in here http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-spirutual-science-for-immortaliy/ they literally say - worship those who have seen Lord, especially Gurus.

6. Conveyor of granting Deekshai. Imagine conveyor of Shaktipat - it is just not possible.
---------------------
Looks like some creepy sect if you ask me. Sect which feeds on people's fear of death. I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative. I will be glad if I will be proven wrong.

Kibric
09-16-2017, 11:03 AM
I understand websites designed by different devotees can be off putting, but its the 1st hand experience which Siddhas value


1. Deekshai seems to be analogous to Shaktipat but seems very... fakey, basically any person (especially impressionable) can feel "something" when someone other looks into his/her eyes. Meanwhile Deathless Gurus claim to have exclusive rights to grant this Deekshai and, as such, they claim monopoly on Divine Wisdom.
That's your opinion having never received deekshai yourself or talked with someone (in person) who has

Deekshai is a transmission through the eyes that changes your eyes,
real (siddhas) Gurus don't claim exclusive rights or have a monopoly on any wisdom
Sadguru or Guru
have the experience having done the training/practises themselves, just like any skill (carpentry) you receive training from a experienced professional
you wouldn't learn music from someone who isn't a qualified musican
you should note they use the phrase Qualified Sadguru for a reason

Unfortunately you cant expect to fully understand what Deekshai is without doing/experiencing it yourself, or at least talking to others who have received Deekshai
many parts of life require direct experience for them to be fully understood


2. Deathless people seem to greatly disregard any Yoga practices and they totally deny Pranayama. They put their teaching highly above all that, with exclusive rights to grant access to Divinity.
Completely false, Vallalaars teachings in Tamil deal with different types of Yoga and so do every single Siddha that has ever lived
Where do they deny Pranayama ? In the practise of Penance the Pranayama becomes automatic, I already addressed this

Exclusive rights to access divinity is not the case, the teachings are highly revered but some devotees take it too far
feeling that their path is the only true one
examples of this type of behaviour can be found in pretty much every spiritual practise


3. They barely have any of their own practices except some highly primitive Penance, which requires no effort except focusing at something in your eyes which you can get exclusively from some Guru.
Considering Tamil civilization and culture is the oldest in the world nearly all practices originated from South India and Siddhars
Highly Primitive ? using techniques to activate cryptochrome (magnetoreception)
Changing the chemistry in the brain by training their eyes in different conditions
using low level light environment and mirrors to increase the size of the retinas too pick up higher frequencies of light
Very primitive indeed...


4. They wrote too much on worshiping their Gurus and need to make donations. If Vallalar could make gold out of the air (as some stories say), couldn't they just live... without donations? Just by making gold here and there from time to time?
They do live with without donations, an option open to donate doesn't mean its a commercial enterprise
In Tamil Nadu there are fires Vallalaar lit that still help feed people today
In Valdur there's a trust that feeds clothes and homes people for free
India is steeped in beliefs involving offerings to various deities , but just because some devotees choose to emphasize this
does not mean its what is directly taught by Vallalaar or other Siddhas


5. There is little to no evidence from them that any of them actually lived for more than 100 years. Their texts don't show a glimpse of knowledge of someone who lived for over 100 years, and there is little transcendental knowledge in it. Everyone can claim to be 100+ years old, but one needs to act like one too, their texts are full of filler and some old morale like "eat only pure-veg food" and "drop any illegal habits" (I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).
With an armchair exploration of it , you wont find anything substantial without 1st hand experience,
Many of the methods and techniques are only taught face to face as I stated before in a previous post
I even linked a website with actual directions and locations of these Deathless Siddhas
but no one is going to visit them and do the work for you

The few books/texts you have read are short introduction for people who don't speak Tamil
Please read all of Vallalaars works in Tamil (28+books) , have a talk with a qualified Sadguru and then decide it is old morale filler.
That would be a fair approach to both you and the teachings/beliefs.

Pure veg food is a requirement and dropping illegal habits (drugs) but that's really common in a lot of spiritual practises

(I wouldn't be surprised if same-sex relationships are also "illegal lust" in their eyes).
No same sex is fine

Also they say here http://www.vallalyaar.com/tiruvadi-d...ing-with-fire/ in pt.5 in red letters - don't worship demi-gods, but in here http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-...or-immortaliy/ they literally say - worship those who have seen Lord, especially Gurus.
They don't worship Gurus as demi gods please cite where ? , Vallalaar stated many times to worship God not him
Those who get Sadguru have a spiritual respect for them

This quote below from the link about worshipping is incorrect

Being humble before the guru, worshipping him, giving him necessary offerings learn the teachings of deathlessness and get Thiruvadi Deekshai
this devotee has put emphasis on offerings and worship to the Guru
(worship to a Guru is not like worship to God its like paying homage)
but this is not what is directly taught by a Siddha
respect and love for your teacher/guru but not worship (like you do to God)

There are lots in India who use the Guru status to make money and brainwash people
this is not condoned by real Siddhas or they're teachings


Looks like some creepy sect if you ask me. Sect which feeds on people's fear of death. I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative. I will be glad if I will be proven wrong.
Creepy sect ?
feeding on people fears ?

Vallalar Principles
Universal brotherhoodness
Treating all souls are equal.
Creating awareness to individual's self diciplines
The God is one for all and worshipping Him as Vast Grace Light or ArutperunJothi
No killing of animals
No eating of flesh
Jeeva Karunaya ; Showing mercy to hungry and feeding them.

how very creepy :(


I am not bashing those peeps, but their teaching sounds quite disturbing, primitive, anti-living and highly manipulative
please explain what teachings are primitive anti-living and highly manipulative
can you please show me examples ?

I will happily give you the details you asked for in a PM

Warmheart
09-16-2017, 02:10 PM
Unfortunately you cant expect to fully understand what Deekshai is without doing/experiencing it yourself, or at least talking to others who have received Deekshai
many parts of life require direct experience for them to be fully understood
During Shaktipat and similar transmissions, the "receiver" gets the visions of the Glory of This Universe, of The Divine, often it is accompanied by acquiring some Siddhis, etc. If "receiver" isn't totally ready then a lot of troubles start happening in his life - that is why Shaktipat can't be made just toward any human.

Also unlike Deekshai, one can work through teachings of Yoga and Tantra and totally avoid the need of Shaktipat, attaining all this by his own labor.

Are there any similar experiences with Deekshai? Can one attain Deekshai without contacting with any Guru?

Completely false, Vallalaars teachings in Tamil deal with different types of Yoga and so do every single Siddha that has ever lived
Where do they deny Pranayama ? In the practise of Penance the Pranayama becomes automatic, I already addressed this
Here they bash it:
http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-spirutual-science-for-immortaliy/
"With a techniques of Yoga like Pranayamam, VaasiYogam it will take lot of births for one to achieve Divinity. Only after extreme Yogas it is possible for one to achieve divine wisdom and after getting divine wisdom only one can get divine pleasure and divine bliss."

Here they totally deny it:
http://www.vallalyaar.com/true-meaning-of-kundalini-yoga/
"Yoga Sastram tells that the Kunadlini is in the end of spinal cord. We donot want that. TiruArutPrakasa Vallalar has clearly told that Pranayam or any other breathing practice will not lead one to to the Supreme Lord. Yoga and Pranayam were not recommeded in this age."


To be honest, this latter quote is totally messy and suspicious.

Considering Tamil civilization and culture is the oldest in the world nearly all practices originated from South India and Siddhars
Highly Primitive ? using techniques to activate cryptochrome (magnetoreception)
Changing the chemistry in the brain by training their eyes in different conditions
using low level light environment and mirrors to increase the size of the retinas too pick up higher frequencies of light
Very primitive indeed...
If to look at various Eastern teachings, a lot of them almost like science, beautiful and multifaceted. Penance, indeed, looks a bit too "simplistic".

Pure veg food is a requirement and dropping illegal habits (drugs) but that's really common in a lot of spiritual practises
While I agree that animal food is a bit too "crude" and it also feeds the "lower parts" of human's soul, it is irreplaceable, though I agree that proper balance is needed. Animal food has a lot of irreplaceable particles like animal protein, B12, etc., and after a year or so of ignoring animal food, bad changes start happening in human's body. Also eating animal meat is basically a requirement for everyone whose work is hard physically, and I must say that there are little jobs in the world which are physically easy.

They don't worship Gurus as demi gods please cite where ? , Vallalaar stated many times to worship God not him
Here:
http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter-8-spirutual-science-for-immortaliy/
"Worship any people who have seen him(lord). Fall on the feet of those person who were teaching this education."
...
"“Did i shy to worship my Guru”
“Did i forget to give Kaanikai(offerings) to my Guru”
These were the words conveyed by vallalar in his book “ManuMurai Kanda Vaasakam”. So be humble and learn this education from the guru. Do divine donation."

please explain what teachings are primitive anti-living and highly manipulative
can you please show me examples ?
Understand me right, in no way I am bashing them or want to bash them, but in my land we have lots of people who claim to attain immortality, who claim to be angels and demons in flesh, etc. Each third is some "illuminated guru". I also became a victim of trust to some of them and it costed me a lot in terms of time.

Thus I am approaching all those teachers with great caution. And as some people say: "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." So far I saw no proof, but I saw all the same notions which I have seen coming from similar-sounding people in my land. Their site has no texts on transcendental experience, on the nature of the things, nothing. It would be interesting to read more on those things, on the nature of Deekshai, etc., before having to give my last hard-earned money as some required divine offering.

As they write in http://www.vallalyaar.com/chapter5-donation-penance/
"Without donations no one can get divine wisdom."

I am not greedy person. But I work extremely hard for whatever little money I have and so I have a very cautious approach to people who claim to be able to make gold from thin air like Vallalar and his embodiments. Perhaps they help and feed the needy, we also have such "philanthropists" in my land - they sell bread for 100$ each and then give part of the money to the "poor", seemingly strong and healthy people who are just too lazy to do any kind of labor.

I will be glad to find myself in error in this case, I have shown you why I think that those people are just some creepy sect. Just with clean heart tell me, do you yourself believe them? Do you have any actual transcendental experience from Deekshai or just something which can be explained by hypnosis, trance, impressionability or something like that? And I will be glad to read more of their books on the Universe, Nature, etc., what I have read so far has a lot of "water" (I am not sure about the proper English idiom here) and contradicts most of the Eastern teachings.

Kibric
09-16-2017, 03:01 PM
Shaktipat is not Deekshai its similar but it not what you are thinking


Can one attain Deekshai without contacting with any Guru?
yes with many years practising Trāṭaka under various conditions
but many go to a qualified Guru to receive it a lot quicker


"With a techniques of Yoga like Pranayamam, VaasiYogam it will take lot of births for one to achieve Divinity. Only after extreme Yogas it is possible for one to achieve divine wisdom and after getting divine wisdom only one can get divine pleasure and divine bliss."

this is saying you can get divine wisdom through Yoga techniques but it will take many births or extreme practise of them
its not bashing it


Yoga Sastram tells that the Kunadlini is in the end of spinal cord. We donot want that. TiruArutPrakasa Vallalar has clearly told that Pranayam or any other breathing practice will not lead one to to the Supreme Lord
Yes the Gnana Deham state (union with the lord) brought on by Penance cannot be achieved by breathing practises alone
focus on raising the Kundalini is not the Goal


To be honest, this latter quote is totally messy and suspicious.

using techniques to activate cryptochrome (magnetoreception)
Changing the chemistry in the brain by training their eyes in different conditions
using low level light environment and mirrors to increase the size of the retinas too pick up higher frequencies of light
Very primitive indeed...
check it out Tamil is the oldest civilization
I've studied siddhas techniques, I know the effect they have on the brain and what equipment/conditions they use
the techniques are not Primitive at all


Worship any people who have seen him(lord). Fall on the feet of those person who were teaching this education."
"“Did i shy to worship my Guru”
“Did i forget to give Kaanikai(offerings) to my Guru”
These were the words conveyed by vallalar in his book “ManuMurai Kanda Vaasakam”. So be humble and learn this education from the guru. Do divine donation."
(worship to a Guru is not like worship to God its like paying homage)


Their site has no texts on transcendental experience, on the nature of the things, nothing. It would be interesting to read more on those things, on the nature of Deekshai, etc
yes only in person will you really get taught , there are various devotees with sites to Vallalaar some with more info than others
Siddhas have been predominantly scripturless , trusting training and teaching in person

before having to give my last hard-earned money as some required divine offering.
you don't have to give them any money, you have the option to offer various fruits to them as an offering
real Siddhas/Gurus will turn you away if you offer them money for their methods and training

"Without donations no one can get divine wisdom."
would be more Honest of you if you cited the whole thing

So important thing for people like us who have learnt immortal education (saakaa kalvi) is to do penance and also give donations to the needy.
In the world whomsoever it may be without penance no one can gain divine wisdom. Without donations no one can get divine wisdom. This is divine truth. The good quality/character of a person who does penance is charity/donation. This is considered as a qualification for a person who is doing penance. So Penance and Donation goes hand in hand.
We should donate. We should become philanthropist. Donation is of various types. We can donate anything that we have.
the translation is a bit off, though it is clearly saying giving to others
and without the spirit of charity you will get no Divine Wisdom


I have shown you why I think that those people are just some creepy sect
you offered 6 points based on an opinion without any 1st hand experience
the principles and teachings of Siddhas are not creepy at all

Vallalar Principles
Universal brotherhoodness
Treating all souls are equal.
Creating awareness to individual's self diciplines
The God is one for all and worshipping Him as Vast Grace Light or ArutperunJothi
No killing of animals
No eating of flesh
Jeeva Karunaya ; Showing mercy to hungry and feeding them.


Just with clean heart tell me, do you yourself believe them? Do you have any actual transcendental experience from Deekshai or just something which can be explained by hypnosis, trance, impressionability or something like that? And I will be glad to read more of their books on the Universe, Nature, etc., what I have read so far has a lot of "water" (I am not sure about the proper English idiom here) and contradicts most of the Eastern teachings.
yes what you experience from Deekshai is a transcendental experience
Deekshai has a physical effect on the eyes (activation of cryptochrome), and Penance brings a very strong sensation in the eyes
its not hypnosis or a trance it has very specific side effects

again you need to go visit, talk and learn in person
that's what all real Siddhas endorse over any written material
that's really been the underlining point in this entire thread

Warmheart
09-16-2017, 05:21 PM
Perhaps you are right, but there is little actual information about their teaching around (and whatever there is, is quite suspicious).

I want to believe that they are real masters of their kind, but so far they sound suspiciously similar to fake ones (for the reasons I listed and for some others). Hence I also ask you - do you yourself honestly believe them? Or do you have some seeds of doubt? Do they have something actually extraordinary to back-up their claims - some very deep knowledge of this world, of the Divine, etc.? What makes you believe that what they say is true and not just side-effects of stimulation of Ajna? Do you have some fear that 20-30 years later you might realize that all this Deekshai deathless thing is just nonsence and that your body has greatly aged, and that even practicing some Yoga would do more good physically than Penance?

Just visiting them isn't exactly an easy task. I need to feed 3 people outside of me, one of them is totally helpless, so it isn't trivial for me just to drop everything for a couple of weeks to visit some people in distant land. And I became very pragmatical and skeptical over years, because there are tons of fake teachings and charlatans who only know how to fill their purse with your money, or who totally live in some imaginary world where they are like gods but can barely treat any half-serious disease. So for now my option is to learn some Tamil and read the Deathless' books to get better idea on what they are about. Do they have more information about their teaching and practices available to read on Tamil language?

Kibric
09-19-2017, 12:11 AM
Perhaps you are right, but there is little actual information about their teaching around (and whatever there is, is quite suspicious).
I want to believe that they are real masters of their kind, but so far they sound suspiciously similar to fake ones (for the reasons I listed and for some others).
you are incredibly cynical, not everything is a cult :(
I saw popular Holy men wearing gold watches, so i decided any master who wears a gold watch was not for me
i found there are real masters but they're entirely disinterested in civilization. They don't like money or wear gold watches
they will ask you to eat nuts and berries, bury yourself in dirt and bathe your self in the sun. Go back to a simpler nature


Hence I also ask you - do you yourself honestly believe them? Or do you have some seeds of doubt? Do they have something actually extraordinary to back-up their claims - some very deep knowledge of this world, of the Divine, etc.?
yes I honestly know it, when you experience something and you know it, you've done it, it happened to you
what others believe doesn't matter


What makes you believe that what they say is true and not just side-effects of stimulation of Ajna?
a good question. Vallalar's teachings is that the soul is in the middle of your head, and is a light (Jothi)
The light shines out of the Left Eye (Moon) and the Right Eye (Sun), the ajna associated as being the seat of the soul (light)
Penance physically changes the eye's then the body, when you practise it you can measure the changes to your own body
after intense Penance the persons eyes shine, the eyes are bright
Sadai Swamigal
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/3a/e5/953ae526a7570bd51d2e6102f6cb1e7d.jpg
a famous Siddha Thangal Mouna
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/c8/59/fcc859afcad3ad4fe6cae363c45b9607.jpg

Do you have some fear that 20-30 years later you might realize that all this Deekshai deathless thing is just nonsence and that your body has greatly aged, and that even practicing some Yoga would do more good physically than Penance?
no, i can measure the effects on my own body and you can see it on others who practise Penance too
you are in no way limited from practising other stuff as well


Just visiting them isn't exactly an easy task. I need to feed 3 people outside of me, one of them is totally helpless, so it isn't trivial for me just to drop everything for a couple of weeks to visit some people in distant land. And I became very pragmatical and skeptical over years, because there are tons of fake teachings and charlatans who only know how to fill their purse with your money, or who totally live in some imaginary world where they are like gods but can barely treat any half-serious disease
it is exactly what you need to really find something unbelievable
there are a lot of charlatans who make us bitter but studying Siddhas reveals some special things


So for now my option is to learn some Tamil and read the Deathless' books to get better idea on what they are about. Do they have more information about their teaching and practices available to read on Tamil language?
a lot of the information you are looking for is in Tamil
it is because of the language barrier and the availability to the western world
that it is hard to get an in-depth knowledge of Vallalar teachings/practises/poems

the below links has the names of books written by Vallalaar in Tamil
a lot of the links are dead, so tracking down the books is a bit difficult but not impossible
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vallalargroups/mTvtV3Af6SU
http://vallalargroupsmessages.blogspot.co.uk/p/vallalar-books.html

this links contains e-books
http://vallalarmission.org/vallalar-e-books/

Warmheart
09-20-2017, 06:52 PM
you are incredibly cynical, not everything is a cult :(
Yes, I probably am :(

I saw popular Holy men wearing gold watches, so i decided any master who wears a gold watch was not for me
i found there are real masters but they're entirely disinterested in civilization. They don't like money or wear gold watches
they will ask you to eat nuts and berries, bury yourself in dirt and bathe your self in the sun. Go back to a simpler nature
I think that both extremes are wrong - aiming for all riches of this world and totally isolating yourself from this world. When people start dealing with absolute Black and White in this multi-colored world, I am starting to feel very uneasy if not frightened.

no, i can measure the effects on my own body and you can see it on others who practise Penance too
you are in no way limited from practising other stuff as well
I am sincerely interested in the way how you measure those effects. What exactly are the effects, and how they can be seen on others?

the below links has the names of books written by Vallalaar in Tamil
a lot of the links are dead, so tracking down the books is a bit difficult but not impossible
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vallalargroups/mTvtV3Af6SU
http://vallalargroupsmessages.blogspot.co.uk/p/vallalar-books.html

this links contains e-books
http://vallalarmission.org/vallalar-e-books/
Thank you, I will look and read them. I did read some of them already, but... they didn't really make me excited. As in example with colors, when I read various Eastern sacred texts - they are so multi-colored, with many colors not even existing in this world. But what I've read from Deathless books so far is so White, that it feels totally lifeless. I will keep reading them, because I hope I am wrong, but so far books contain a lot of things about "abortions are wrong", "eating animal flesh is wrong", "killing mosquitos is wrong", "doubting sacred teaching is wrong", and many other highly controversial moralities with little actual knowledge and practice. So far it is very off-putting, but I will keep reading and trying to persuade myself that I am wrong and just need to do more research.

Avatar
09-22-2017, 07:18 AM
The light of the eye and the light if the ear are also known as the vital sustaining life force.

I mean, I can make my eyes shine at will via projecting my life force through them.

The same way I do that also allows me to experience reality with my mind.
Keeping this on does have interesting effect. 2 weeks is probably my max sustained time.

Giving someone shaltipat is difficult.
It takes extreme focus.
I have only done it once, it was an accident.
I peered into someone. They met my gaze and challenged me.
The majority of my being was in my eyes at this point.
The ended up breathing in deep, siezed up, fell directly back into a wall. An instantly started dreaming for about 15 seconds before waking up in a daze. It was simply a result of many suppressed things leaving all at once.

I apologized as it was not my intent. Shaltipat through the eyes is the highest form of transmission. Most is done through touch.
Meat eating. Alcohole. Drugs. None of these matter in the face
Of rejuvenating vitality. At most they will break your discipline. Thus breaking your ability to cultivate. Like an alluring women breaking your celibacy. Yet if a women break your celibacy, you were never on the immortal path to begin with.
Any man who practices correctly, 2 months into practice he will have all desire burnt up. If this isn't true, then what is he doing?

I read through an have no idea the practice you speak of.
Yet through opening my subtle body. I can project light through my easily. It follows my attention. It is Like a spirit. Part of my but separate. At will i can alter my mind like a drug. The more I use it, the stronger it gets.

Right and wrong do not exist at some point. These only exist to those who have not overcome. An overcoming means cultivation of life.
Liberation is a part of immortal path. Liberation is not liberation from the world, it is liberation from yourself. For it is you who experiences.

Fire consumes all, all that remains is the flame. The flame remains untarnished.

Kibric
09-30-2017, 01:33 AM
I am sincerely interested in the way how you measure those effects. What exactly are the effects, and how they can be seen on others?
you can measure them lots of ways
skin elasticity, blood, urine, muscle development, reaction times etc
even toenail growth

the Penance meditation is preparing your body for the Jeevasamadhi state
so depending on how much you do it determines the effects it has on you
there are numerous effects, in each of the stages
so i will just list some main ones

example
if you practise Penance for 4 hours a day
your eyes become bright
your skin clearer, you breathe slower and less
reactions speed increases, you learn faster. Languages sports etc
(this is due to Penance changing the way your brain processes information)

if you practise Penance for 10 hours a day
your eyes become red, you become lean and strong
your body becomes flexible, you learn very fast
you require less and less food, you age slower

20 hours a day
and your body requires very little food or water
you are lean and very strong, you will remain youthful
if you are old you will start to slowly grow young

25+hours a day
and your body will start to enter the Jeevasamadhi state
which has a whole host of other effects on the body
bones become supple
sweet odour from the body


So far it is very off-putting, but I will keep reading and trying to persuade myself that I am wrong and just need to do more research.
Siddha teachings come in a variety with their own devotees , a lot like many spiritual paths
there are some Siddhas who eat meat and worship (pay homage)to the Vagina
a Siddha it is very much up to you
there is a spectrum of ground work before you
Vallalaar not eating animal flesh is part of that spectrum
as is Bhogars tantric sex rituals

i would encourage you to reach out to Siddhas yourself however you can
the horses mouth so to speak because that is a core belief in Siddha teachings

Andro
09-30-2017, 06:31 AM
if you practice Penance for [...] 25+ hours a day

I can see how this one in particular can extend one's lifespan :)


worship (pay homage) to the Vagina

Is there also a cock-worshiping alternative?

Are women also allowed to practice? If yes, do they worship the vagina as well?

But on a more "serious" note, I think that the whole "vagina" thing is more allegorical than literal. Sounds (to me) like the Eastern equivalent of the Black Sun.