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Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 08:31 AM
One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.

JDP
09-01-2017, 10:39 AM
One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.

The reason why nobody points it out is because I don't think anyone who has tinkered with acetates feels that such huge quantities of them are needed. You can work with smaller sample sizes (and you still will eventually realize that you can't make the Stone or the secret solvent by working with them alone.) Plus since there is no difference between working with home-made vinegar and vinegars or acetic acid already conveniently prepared and/or concentrated for you by a well-established large-scale industry, no one that I know of is inclined to take the trouble of producing their own vinegar from scratch.

black
09-01-2017, 10:45 AM
Hi Axis

I'm just wondering what you use all this wine vinegar for ?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 11:46 AM
The reason why nobody points it out is because I don't think anyone who has tinkered with acetates feels that such huge quantities of them are needed. You can work with smaller sample sizes (and you still will eventually realize that you can't make the Stone or the secret solvent by working with them alone.) Plus since there is no difference between working with home-made vinegar and vinegars or acetic acid already conveniently prepared and/or concentrated for you by a well-established large-scale industry, no one that I know of is inclined to take the trouble of producing their own vinegar from scratch.

A telling comment, why on earth would I go to such trouble as brewing my own wine, fermenting my own vinegar and vacuum distilling it below 90c. Or I could even buy metal acetate and not bother with any of the above. I'm focussing on practical issues of vinegar making and the 'spiritual' reasons for doing so which you do not believe in anyway JDP. So I'm not going to go deeply into when a vinegar has philosophical characteristic and when these are lacking. I agree with Dubuis theory of vegetable life, you may choose to now criticise this JDP, understand I do not care what you think about that. I wonder if people on this forum have only tried acetate work with commercial acetates or purchased acetic acid which is why they have never encountered this issue of sheer volume of vinegar required to be made. Also in my opinion without a vinegar that has a philosophical nature to to how it is made, it is small wonder that little Alchemical progress is achieved.

I appreciate your practical observations JDP my feeling is you do get your hands dirty in the lab. I have to admit I seem to be forming a general prejudice here that in the vernacular a number of posters are 'bullshitters' and do very little meaningful actual practical Alchemical research. For example not understanding the scale required to make sufficient vinegar. If this was realised and people felt it was unnecessary, that you can just buy it why has this not been previously mentioned? Because some people basically don't do much apart from talk about Alchemy books so they haven't investigated and wouldn't know?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 11:50 AM
Hi Axis

I'm just wondering what you use all this wine vinegar for ?

I use the acetic acid of vinegar to react with a mineral carbonate or oxide to form a metal acetate. I mention briefly in the post to JDP why I think it is necessary to have correctly made vinegar rather than just buying glacial acetic acid or a metal acetate from a commercial supplier.

The essence of my post initial is that it isn't really practical unless you have a vineyard or own a brewing business and can set aside a section for vinegar making.

black
09-01-2017, 12:26 PM
I use the acetic acid of vinegar to react with a mineral carbonate or oxide to form a metal acetate. I mention briefly in the post to JDP why I think it is necessary to have correctly made vinegar rather than just buying glacial acetic acid or a metal acetate from a commercial supplier.

The essence of my post initial is that it isn't really practical unless you have a vineyard or own a brewing business and can set aside a section for vinegar making.

I spent many years working with the mineral / metallic acetates.
Initially I just used glacial acetic acid and with each experiment
only about 30 to 50 ml each time.

You can do a lot of work in the lab with several liters.
All good experience.

As for the Philosophical Vinegar ....I think Basil Valentine writes
about it a bit in his Triumphal Chariot of Antimony.

It's always a good read....there's always something new to find
each time.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 12:55 PM
Did you make your own 'natural' vinegar Black? Shop bought or purchased glacial acetic acid makes an acetate no problem, but it lacks what could be called a philosophical nature. It's good to hear about your practical experiences.

Luxus
09-01-2017, 12:57 PM
One thing I have discovered over the last 9 months is the sheer quantity of wine-vinegar production required. I make a barrel load of wine 25-28 litres and 4 months later it is vinegar. Double freeze then filter I get about 5 litres but it isn't that strong. So the quantity of acetate produced is low. It would take years to make sizeable amounts of acetate unless I did 5-10 barrels of vinegar each time which for the average household is not practical. It seems to me that only the owner of a vineyard can realistically adopt the acetate approach and take it all the way to the stone.

Using an air bubbler in the barrel can speed up vinegar production however the sheer volume of wine to vinegar to freezing and then the step of sweating or vacuum distilling to get high conc acetic acid. The scale of production is on the level of a small business venture.

The fact that nobody on this forum has ever pointed out this issue; the sheer scale of required volumes, suggests few of if any here have ever started practically investigating this approach.

You are trying to make the vinegar of the sages, the secret solvent ?

So what is your process?

If I were trying to make wine vinegar I would start with wine then dilute it so the alcohol concentration wouldn't be too strong to kill the bacteria. Then I would add a culture of the bacteria and consider using a heating belt set at whatever temp is optimal for these bacteria, oh and I would probably use an air stone too...good idea!

black
09-01-2017, 01:26 PM
Did you make your own 'natural' vinegar Black? Shop bought or purchased glacial acetic acid makes an acetate no problem, but it lacks what could be called a philosophical nature. It's good to hear about your practical experiences.

The glacial acetic acid I used was purchased from a chemical supply store.

I think you may be onto something when you say a Philosophic Nature.

If you have read The Triumphal Chariot....you may recall Dr Kirkringus commenting
on Basils Spirit of Wine and then offering his own special ....(KM) menstrum.

If this is the case with the Spirit of Wine it may also ring true for the Vinegar ?

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 01:30 PM
I've tinkered with strengthening vinegar, via a fractioned freezing process, but freezing alone will only get you to 50-60% most likely, so to make half a gallon of that requires 10 gallons or more. One "use" of it while making might be to add thermal mass to your deep freezer.

I only used store-bought white vinegar, and after screwing around with it for a while, I dropped a couple pennies in there and left it on my desk. Some copper acetate is just another member of my little curio collection now, and it looks cool in a lab. You're right in saying that it's quite a process, and paired with the curing time of wine it is a ton of trouble. Do you grow your own grapes too?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 04:28 PM
You are trying to make the vinegar of the sages, the secret solvent ?

So what is your process?

If I were trying to make wine vinegar I would start with wine then dilute it so the alcohol concentration wouldn't be too strong to kill the bacteria. Then I would add a culture of the bacteria and consider using a heating belt set at whatever temp is optimal for these bacteria, oh and I would probably use an air stone too...good idea!

I'm just making natural vinegar because I think commercially obtainable vinegar will lack a subtle energy which is needed in Alchemy. I have a vinegar mother from the previous batch and I leave a little vinegar behind. I put in some wine to half fill the container which is open to the air. About 2 weeks later I top it up with more wine so there is always an element of alcohol dilution and vinegar already present.

After 4 months decant barrel and double freeze the vinegar then filter the final 5 litres or so that is collected. This can be vacuum distilled or used as is, the quantity of vinegar derived from 12 initial wine making demijohns filled to 2/3 is small. So unless I multiply this whole operation by 5-10 times and take over my whole house with these it will take a few years. Practically not feasable and presumably nobody here on this forum has encountered this issue so apart from playing about with acetates a bit nobody has really embarked on this particular work?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 04:30 PM
I've tinkered with strengthening vinegar, via a fractioned freezing process, but freezing alone will only get you to 50-60% most likely, so to make half a gallon of that requires 10 gallons or more. One "use" of it while making might be to add thermal mass to your deep freezer.

I only used store-bought white vinegar, and after screwing around with it for a while, I dropped a couple pennies in there and left it on my desk. Some copper acetate is just another member of my little curio collection now, and it looks cool in a lab. You're right in saying that it's quite a process, and paired with the curing time of wine it is a ton of trouble. Do you grow your own grapes too?

I live in Wales which is not a grape growing region so I purchase them as cheaply as possible in bulk amounts when I'm going to do a batch.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 04:35 PM
The glacial acetic acid I used was purchased from a chemical supply store.

I think you may be onto something when you say a Philosophic Nature.

If you have read The Triumphal Chariot....you may recall Dr Kirkringus commenting
on Basils Spirit of Wine and then offering his own special ....(KM) menstrum.

If this is the case with the Spirit of Wine it may also ring true for the Vinegar ?

I make Kerkrings menstruum for various uses. I shall take another look at the text thank you for your observations black.

Luxus
09-01-2017, 05:13 PM
I'm just making natural vinegar because I think commercially obtainable vinegar will lack a subtle energy which is needed in Alchemy. I have a vinegar mother from the previous batch and I leave a little vinegar behind. I put in some wine to half fill the container which is open to the air. About 2 weeks later I top it up with more wine so there is always an element of alcohol dilution and vinegar already present.

After 4 months decant barrel and double freeze the vinegar then filter the final 5 litres or so that is collected. This can be vacuum distilled or used as is, the quantity of vinegar derived from 12 initial wine making demijohns filled to 2/3 is small. So unless I multiply this whole operation by 5-10 times and take over my whole house with these it will take a few years. Practically not feasable and presumably nobody here on this forum has encountered this issue so apart from playing about with acetates a bit nobody has really embarked on this particular work?

Have you tried adding an aquarium heater to speed-up the growth of the bacteria?

If you are perplexed why others on this forum are not producing huge quantity's of wine vinegar its because some believe alchemy has absolutely nothing to do with or utilise wine vinegar in anyway, therefore they would have no interest in making it.

I have heard there are some people who make wine vinegar and think they can use it to dissolve gold, they have thought this due to misunderstanding the wording of some writers who talk about their vinegar or sharp vinegar.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 05:32 PM
If you are perplexed why others on this forum are not producing huge quantity's of wine vinegar its because some believe alchemy has absolutely nothing to do with or utilise wine vinegar in anyway, therefore they would have no interest in making it.

I have heard there are some people who make wine vinegar and think they can use it to dissolve gold, they have thought this due to misunderstanding the wording of some writers who talk about their vinegar or sharp vinegar.

Quoted for truth. So many people here realize that the Sages were not writing openly and used many of their words metaphorically. I have a feeling Axis is one of these people.

Remember, our Art is like making wine, similar to making wine, but not the same as or actually having anything to do with actually making wine.









"Medulla Alchymiae" by George Ripley, 1476

(This Work is not to be done all at once, but by little and little at a time, till it goes through with it in the Color of Blood; then will it precipitate into a Red Pouder, called by the Philosophers Sericon: Dissolve it with as much of Our Vegetable Sal Anatron, the space of an hour, then set it in balneo, in a long Receptory, till it be cleanly dissolved, and becomes as it were a fine Wine, which with the very softest heat, make it to Evaporate, and Congeal, so will you have a pure Stone, and of subtil parts.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 05:54 PM
Have you tried adding an aquarium heater to speed-up the growth of the bacteria?

If you are perplexed why others on this forum are not producing huge quantity's of wine vinegar its because some believe alchemy has absolutely nothing to do with or utilise wine vinegar in anyway, therefore they would have no interest in making it.

I have heard there are some people who make wine vinegar and think they can use it to dissolve gold, they have thought this due to misunderstanding the wording of some writers who talk about their vinegar or sharp vinegar.

Already mentioned air bubblers I decided not to go into heat vs mildew growth. Doubtless there are some who are not looking at acetates it is after all only one approach. However I notice a number of threads on acetate work on this forum and a number of posters here on this thread have played around with commercial vinegars and acetic acids. Therefore your suggestion that people are not interested in this acetate Alchemy work is clearly not correct, there is clearly a degree of interest and I suspect you know this already. The fact that hardly anyone has mentioned the scale of vinegar production required means that few if any have got around to trying it with anything apart from commercial stuff otherwise it would have been mentioned previously wouldn't it? This is either because they have found another approach but all such researchers decided not to mention it on the forum (unlikely acetate was mentioned after all). Alternatively it's because the Lab work is a bit sparse for diverse reasons e.g. Raising a family, work commitments, lack of lab space and gear etc etc.

As for what you have heard people believe, that has no relevance, beliefs are legion, it is what people are prepared to show that can be checked that is relevant.

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 05:55 PM
I'm just making natural vinegar because I think commercially obtainable vinegar will lack a subtle energy which is needed in Alchemy. I have a vinegar mother from the previous batch and I leave a little vinegar behind. I put in some wine to half fill the container which is open to the air. About 2 weeks later I top it up with more wine so there is always an element of alcohol dilution and vinegar already present.

After 4 months decant barrel and double freeze the vinegar then filter the final 5 litres or so that is collected. This can be vacuum distilled or used as is, the quantity of vinegar derived from 12 initial wine making demijohns filled to 2/3 is small. So unless I multiply this whole operation by 5-10 times and take over my whole house with these it will take a few years. Practically not feasable and presumably nobody here on this forum has encountered this issue so apart from playing about with acetates a bit nobody has really embarked on this particular work?

Not sure that I follow exactly how you are multiplying the procedure, but when you freeze distil, you can still capture more. You can take the secondary fractions, and rework both of them over and over. I.e. take the less concentrated and freeze distill again, and add the pure to the pure already collected. Unless you rectify the process several times, it's (my opinion) useless to toss it in a still. You need to go for at least 50% concentration so that the distillation temperatures are separated as much as possible. You can test concentration by pH.

Again, not sure of your multiplication process, so you might/probably already know this, but I thought it might be helpful to point out for the thread.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 06:06 PM
Quoted for truth. So many people here realize that the Sages were not writing openly and used many of their words metaphorically.

I have a feeling Axis is one of these people.

The sages write many things that are indeed metaphorical. We are talking here simply about making vinegar and how it needs to be made as naturally as possible in my view. But you need a lot and nobody before me has mentioned this. Therefore I conclude Schmuldvich that you are nothing more than an armchair Alchemists I mean if you read 4 Alchemical books a day and then meditate as you have mentioned previously how could you be anything else? The number of stoners I have met in my life who just talk utter bollocks like this 'the sages'. But hey I could be completely wrong Schmuldvich you really could be a totally enlightened Alchemist I guess I will never know.

Luxus
09-01-2017, 06:16 PM
Already mentioned air bubblers I decided not to go into heat vs mildew growth. Doubtless there are some who are not looking at acetates it is after all only one approach. However I notice a number of threads on acetate work on this forum and a number of posters here on this thread have played around with commercial vinegars and acetic acids. Therefore your suggestion that people are not interested in this acetate Alchemy work is clearly not correct, there is clearly a degree of interest and I suspect you know this already. The fact that hardly anyone has mentioned the scale of vinegar production required means that few if any have got around to trying it with anything apart from commercial stuff otherwise it would have been mentioned previously wouldn't it? This is either because they have found another approach but all such researchers decided not to mention it on the forum (unlikely acetate was mentioned after all). Alternatively it's because the Lab work is a bit sparse for diverse reasons e.g. Raising a family, work commitments, lack of lab space and gear etc etc.

As for what you have heard people believe, that has no relevance, beliefs are legion, it is what people are prepared to show that can be checked that is relevant.

Yes I am aware there are people working with vinegar, actually read someone describing it as the wet path earlier today. It is all good in the end anyway as long as the product is useful to you in some way.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 06:22 PM
I'm not sure I get what you mean Dragon's Tail. Once my barrel of wine (it's a 25ltr plastic thing) has soured to vinegar I fill plastic bottles 2/3 crush them down to allow for ice expansion and put them in the freezer. Once they are frozen after say a week I think, i open the bottle lid and turn upside down into a container so that the vinegar drains out leaving behind water-ice. This drain off is put in more plastic bottles in the same way as before and put in the freezer again, after a week it is drained off in the same way as before. If I bottle this drain off liquid and re-freeze it the liquid will not freeze. Are you saying the ice left behind in previous bottles should be thawed, re-frozen and do another drainoff to catch any residual vinegar left behind. It's possible a little could be gained but not much I think. If you were talking about distillation I vacuum distil (below 90C) with a vigreaux column so the vinegar and water separates in one distillation run so I do not have several partial fractions that need re-distilling.


As shown on first post of this thread:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5131-Vinegar-distillation

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 06:37 PM
The sages write many things that are indeed metaphorical. We are talking here simply about making vinegar and how it needs to be made as naturally as possible in my view. But you need a lot and nobody before me has mentioned this.

Therefore I conclude Schmuldvich that you are nothing more than an armchair Alchemists I mean if you read 4 Alchemical books a day and then meditate as you have mentioned previously how could you be anything else? The number of stoners I have met in my life who just talk utter bollocks like this 'the sages'. But hey I could be completely wrong Schmuldvich you really could be a totally enlightened Alchemist I guess I will never know.

Ha! I am not an Alchemist.

Do you think you are an Alchemist?

Very few people on this site are worthy of such a title; z0 K is one of the few here who has a decent understanding and solid foundation of what he does in the lab and still I would not call him an Alchemist---a skilled spagyricist maybe.

More than anyone here z0 K has shared his work and graciously explained his labwork, albeit he is closed off to questions and will not even respond privately (which leads me to believe he does not have things 100% figured out, but certainly is on the right track).

I am not enlightened, nor am I a Sage. I simply have a better understanding of Alchemy than most members on this website still wandering through the labyrinth lost as a bat. I appreciate all who share their words and works on this website including you. Axis, you are one of the most reliable posters here; you do not bullshit and your posts are based in fact, practical experience, and not just theory.

This is commendable and it is always a pleasure to read what you have to say. Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing). All of your posts have a point, you are keen to converse and answer questions, and you never talk out of your ass like so many members here do.

I find your discovery of the amount of wine required to make vinegar enlightening and very practical. Thank you for sharing!

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 06:49 PM
Ha! I am not an Alchemist.

Do you think you are an Alchemist?

Very few people on this site are worthy of such a title; z0 K is one of the few here who has a decent understanding and solid foundation of what he does in the lab and still I would not call him an Alchemist---a skilled spagyricist maybe.

More than anyone here z0 K has shared his work and graciously explained his labwork, albeit he is closed off to questions and will not even respond privately (which leads me to believe he does not have things 100% figured out, but certainly is on the right track).

I am not enlightened, nor am I a Sage. I simply have a better understanding of Alchemy than most members on this website still wandering through the labyrinth lost as a bat. I appreciate all who share their words and works on this website including you. Axis, you are one of the most reliable posters here; you do not bullshit and your posts are based in fact, practical experience, and not just theory.

This is commendable and it is always a pleasure to read what you have to say. Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing). All of your posts have a point, you are keen to converse and answer questions, and you never talk out of your ass like so many members here do.

I find your discovery of the amount of wine required to make vinegar enlightening and very practical. Thank you for sharing!

So you are basically saying you are a troll Schmuldvich :- "Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing)."

People like you are part of the online ecology Schmuldvich, the only thing that 'works me up' as you put it is that if I were younger I could have been drawn in by your self assured arrogance and mistakenly believed you knew something. Snake oil sellers and false sages are a hazard and it is an inconvenient chore, even a duty to contend with such as you from time to time. It's a feeling similar to the necessity of cleaning the toilet occasionally, odious but not really a thing to get worked up about.

JDP
09-01-2017, 07:16 PM
A telling comment, why on earth would I go to such trouble as brewing my own wine, fermenting my own vinegar and vacuum distilling it below 90c. Or I could even buy metal acetate and not bother with any of the above. I'm focussing on practical issues of vinegar making and the 'spiritual' reasons for doing so which you do not believe in anyway JDP. So I'm not going to go deeply into when a vinegar has philosophical characteristic and when these are lacking. I agree with Dubuis theory of vegetable life, you may choose to now criticise this JDP, understand I do not care what you think about that. I wonder if people on this forum have only tried acetate work with commercial acetates or purchased acetic acid which is why they have never encountered this issue of sheer volume of vinegar required to be made. Also in my opinion without a vinegar that has a philosophical nature to to how it is made, it is small wonder that little Alchemical progress is achieved.

I appreciate your practical observations JDP my feeling is you do get your hands dirty in the lab. I have to admit I seem to be forming a general prejudice here that in the vernacular a number of posters are 'bullshitters' and do very little meaningful actual practical Alchemical research. For example not understanding the scale required to make sufficient vinegar. If this was realised and people felt it was unnecessary, that you can just buy it why has this not been previously mentioned? Because some people basically don't do much apart from talk about Alchemy books so they haven't investigated and wouldn't know?

This idea that you are entertaining has also been held by others ("Rubellus Petrinus", for example) and it has led them nowhere. No matter how "old fashioned" a way they prepare their vinegars, "aqua fortises", saltpeters, reguli of antimony, etc. the end result is always the same: failure. That's because these substances that they think will somehow make the Stone are just the wrong substances, that simple. It has nothing to do with how you obtain them. That is not going to make any important difference. As I recommended to you in other threads, you can learn a lot from other people's mistakes, and save yourself a lot of time and expenditure. People who think that they must make things from scratch the "old fashioned" way in order for alchemy to work have overlooked a fundamental flaw in their theory: the countless seekers who kept failing over and over, and again and again in past centuries in fact worked with those "old fashioned" prepared products, and they still kept on failing. What makes you think that you will have better success than them? When an ancient, medieval or early modern "puffer" who was trying to make the Stone by dissolving metals in vinegar made his frustrated attempts he was not working with our modern acetic acid, he was working with vinegar made the "old fashioned" way. It did not make the slightest difference. They totally failed to achieve what the alchemists describe. That is not because they were working with a common vinegar prepared "the wrong way", it is because they working on the wrong solvent in the first place. Vinegar will not do anything "radical" to metals, not matter how you prepare it. It is NOT the secret solvent of alchemy. No matter how you prepare it, it will not do the "trick". Common vinegar is just common vinegar, no matter if prepared in the old or modern ways.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 07:31 PM
This idea that you are entertaining has also been held by others ("Rubellus Petrinus", for example) and it has led them nowhere. No matter how "old fashioned" a way they prepare their vinegars, "aqua fortises", saltpeters, reguli of antimony, etc. the end result is always the same: failure. That's because these substances that they think will somehow make the Stone are just the wrong substances, that simple. It has nothing to do with how you obtain them. That is not going to make any important difference.

As I recommended to you in other threads, you can learn a lot from other people's mistakes, and save yourself a lot of time and expenditure. People who think that they must make things from scratch the "old fashioned" way in order for alchemy to work have overlooked a fundamental flaw in their theory: the countless seekers who kept failing over and over, and again and again in past centuries in fact worked with those "old fashioned" prepared products, and they still kept on failing.

What makes you think that you will have better success than them? When an ancient, medieval or early modern "puffer" who was trying to make the Stone by dissolving metals in vinegar made his frustrated attempts he was not working with our modern acetic acid, he was working with vinegar made the "old fashioned" way. It did not make the slightest difference. They totally failed to achieve what the alchemists describe. That is not because they were working with a common vinegar prepared "the wrong way", it is because they working on the wrong solvent in the first place.

Vinegar will not do anything "radical" to metals, not matter how you prepare it. It is NOT the secret solvent of alchemy. No matter how you prepare it, it will not do the "trick". Common vinegar is just common vinegar, no matter if prepared in the old or modern ways.

Do you still not yet realize that the Ancients spoke esoterically and interpreting their words literally is foolish, Axis?

Are you not to this point yet?

...Working with vinegar will teach you a lot about chemistry, and you will get more familiar with labwork and your glassware, but it will get you nowhere with Alchemy.

Is understanding Alchemy your main goal?



So you are basically saying you are a troll Schmuldvich :- "Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing)."
You misunderstand my words.

My goal is never to work you up (or anyone else for that matter). In threads, such as the "Evocation" thread, you got all in a huff and super defensive when Warmheart was warming elixirmixer's heart with his warm heartfelt words that you did not agree with. Another example is in the post before this one where you chose to type the paragraph about 'cleaning the toilet'. Your tone is amusing, your attitude is funny, yet your posts are valuable. I'll take that over someone talking out of their ass any day!

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 07:34 PM
I appreciate your comments JDP and I think you mean well. I do not think vinegar is the 'secret solvent' I think it is vinegar and it can form acetate with mineral oxides and carbonates especially.

A similar problem arose on the Spagyric menstruum thread also. I think some posters decide I mean a thing based on what they have a view of; even though I haven't written anything like what they suggest I am meaning. On the Spagyric menstruum thread the view was that I thought Alcohol was the special Alchemical menstruum when in fact I was talking in terms of basic openly defined Spagyrics and not Alchemy at all. To repeat: I do not think vinegar is some special Alchemical solvent I think it is vinegar. As I have clearly indicated I am testing out Dubuis theory of vegetable life which may or may not be valid and this is completely different to the preconceptions posters have and then attach to me even though I have not indicated anything like these preconceptions. In psychological terms it could be said that these various muppets are projecting which would explain why they say a thing about my views that is not found in what I have written.

So you could be right JDP but I have not seen online or in published form empirical evidence about this vegetable life idea, so I must check for myself. I discover that the quantities and volumes involved are quite high and this has never been mentioned so I wonder if anyone here has a clue about this apart from small scale tests with purchased vinegar etc which would not work if Dubuis theory is correct.

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 07:37 PM
hmm. I haven't tried vacuum distillation (still thinking about how to pull a vacuum without breaking anything and on a tight budget).

But yes, capture the residual vinegar from the ice. There is still a lot of product in there. Your distillation method might be better with mine, does it produce glacial?

If I were to do it today, I would freeze no less than five bottles, pour off and fill a fifth, then melt and refreeze the ice, and repeat at least once, maybe twice. Then take the bottles of the follow-up refreezes and do the same procedure as the first, and add the liquid portion from this step back to the original freezings. I would then refreeze and repeat the whole process with the collected acetic. This will get it pretty pure without putting anything in a retort or distillation setup. Water and vinegar don't separate very easily. Glacial must be over 90% if I recall correctly, maybe 95%, and this is possible in the lab, but it requires a good bit of labor and lots of repeated steps. I haven't produced glacial yet, but if I were going to go through the trouble again, I would want as efficient a process as possible, playing into what you said about the need to collect so much. Why not waste as little as possible?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 07:52 PM
I appreciate your suggestion Dragon's Tail I will give it a try when my next barrel load is ready see if it increases yield appreciably.

Yes I get above 90% vinegar conc certainly, the vinegar is left behind, I let the system cool, equalise pressure empty receiving flask, remove vigreaux column then vacuum distil across the vinegar leaving sediment behind temp again below 90C to fit with Dubuis vegetable life theory.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 07:57 PM
Do you still not yet realize that the Ancients spoke esoterically and interpreting their words literally is foolish, Axis?

Are you not to this point yet?

...Working with vinegar will teach you a lot about chemistry, and you will get more familiar with labwork and your glassware, but it will get you nowhere with Alchemy.

Is understanding Alchemy your main goal?



You misunderstand my words.

My goal is never to work you up (or anyone else for that matter). In threads, such as the "Evocation" thread, you got all in a huff and super defensive when Warmheart was warming elixirmixer's heart with his warm heartfelt words that you did not agree with. Another example is in the post before this one where you chose to type the paragraph about 'cleaning the toilet'. Your tone is amusing, your attitude is funny, yet your posts are valuable. I'll take that over someone talking out of their ass any day!

As you wrote previous Schmuldvich:"Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing)."

Your words are clear Schmuldvich you openly indicate your intent to goad and clearly state you do this for amusement. By your own admission you are a troll, the abundant obnoxious cockroach of the internet and forums.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 08:34 PM
As you wrote previous Schmuldvich:"Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing)."

Your words are clear Schmuldvich you openly indicate your intent to goad and clearly state you do this for amusement. By your own admission you are a troll, the abundant obnoxious cockroach of the internet and forums.

I appreciate the kind word, but I assure you I am not a troll. Again, to be clear, my goal is never to get anyone worked up. My goal here is to elicit fruitful discussion.

If you go back and read what I wrote with open eyes, "Your tone is funny and I love seeing you get all worked up and defensive (it's amusing).", you will see that I do not do this for my amusement, nor is my intent ever to goad. I use my words carefully, precisely, and methodically; reading them one more time might help you understand.

To be clear, I am amused when you get worked up by others which happens often (I never attempt to work you up). You present yourself as such a feeble individual online and get defensive ultra easily (which I find amusing; reading your defensive responses). I sit back, watch you get worked up, get amused, and learn from you. You are one of the most valuable members on this website.

You still misunderstand my words, Axis.



Did you miss my question in the last post when I asked, "Do you still not yet realize that the Ancients spoke esoterically?"

This is basic facet of Alchemy you must understand if you are to succeed, but I still don't think you get it.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 09:00 PM
A brief review of your posts on various threads Schmuldvich leads me to the certain conclusion that if I were to try and follow your advice ( read 4 Alchemy books a day and meditate). Assume you had some kind of Spiritual Mastery or grace and you were not simply bullshitting and patronising. Accept in some way I deserved to be trolled by you ( ref: you like to try and work me up it amuses you). Well I think any person who accepted these things from you and tried to actually implement them would lapse into failure in all aspects of their life due to complete lack of self worth. You on the other hand would have to some degree propped up and fed your narcissism and then would move on to troll and patronise new subjects attempting to feed psychologically on them. My personal view is that the narcissism and disconnect is clear because you are obviously just kind of 'playing on the internet'. You don't display on-line any feelings ( pretend or otherwise) you simply continue your game, make statements, paste a bit of text, challenge on broad issues for which there is no simple answer and then make a collection of grandiose and judgemental pronouncements.

The occult including Alchemy will always be plagued by such wounded malignant people and the Internet and trolling has allowed for new modes of expressing this.

People like you Schmuldvich are in my view the price I must pay for being on an ostensibly free forum, nothing in life is really free I guess.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 09:16 PM
A brief review of your posts on various threads Schmuldvich leads me to the certain conclusion that if I were to try and follow your advice ( read 4 Alchemy books a day and meditate). Assume you had some kind of Spiritual Mastery or grace and you were not simply bullshitting and patronising. Accept in some way I deserved to be trolled by you ( ref: you like to try and work me up it amuses you). Well I think any person who accepted these things from you and tried to actually implement them would lapse into failure in all aspects of their life due to complete lack of self worth. You on the other hand would have to some degree propped up and fed your narcissism and then would move on to troll and patronise new subjects attempting to feed psychologically on them. My personal view is that the narcissism and disconnect is clear because you are obviously just kind of 'playing on the internet'. You don't display on-line any feelings ( pretend or otherwise) you simply continue your game, make statements, paste a bit of text, challenge on broad issues for which there is no simple answer and then make a collection of grandiose and judgemental pronouncements.

What do you wish to accomplish working with vinegar?

Do you understand the Sages were speaking Philosophically when referring to vinegar?







You still misinterpret my words...


you like to try and work me up it amuses you

...Never once did I say this and my past two posts have been dedicated to informing you of your erroneous interpretation of my words. I cannot say it any clearer than I already have:




I do not do this for my amusement, nor is my intent ever to goad


I am amused when you get worked up by others which happens often (I never attempt to work you up). You present yourself as such a feeble individual online and get defensive ultra easily (which I find amusing; reading your defensive responses)


You misunderstand my words.

My goal is never to work you up (or anyone else for that matter).

...Again, my intent is not to goad you, or anyone else, or to get you worked up. I fail to see how or why you do not comprehend this. Perhaps you are projecting or upset and blinded by anger.



When you work with vinegar in the lab, what do you plan to do with the vinegar you produce?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 09:30 PM
Well the thing is Schmuldvich if you add vinegar to a high purity mineral carbonate or oxide you will generally get an acetate. This is what I am doing with vinegar and this whole thread started with me identifying that home brewed vinegar is a large undertaking if a reasonable quantity of acetate is required. I suggested that this issue of scale has not been mentioned on this forum previous because few if any here had actually gone past basic testing with commercial product with this acetate approach.

Schmuldvich do you think you are actually capable of engaging with the practical experimental issues I have raised like JDP, black and Dragon's Tail have? Will you be able to resist the temptation to paste loads of Alchemical stuff make grandiose pronouncements and value judgements of others, figuratively tapping your nose knowingly?

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 09:36 PM
Schmuldvich do you think you are actually capable of engaging with the practical experimental issues I have raised like JDP, black and Dragon's Tail have? Will you be able to resist the temptation to paste loads of Alchemical stuff make grandiose pronouncements and value judgements of others, figuratively tapping your nose knowingly?
Most likely not.

I will continue to post excerpts from legitimate Alchemy texts and I will incessantly ask questions that spur fruitful discussion.



Well the thing is Schmuldvich if you add vinegar to a high purity mineral carbonate or oxide you will generally get an acetate. This is what I am doing with vinegar and this whole thread started with me identifying that home brewed vinegar is a large undertaking if a reasonable quantity of acetate is required. I suggested that this issue of scale has not been mentioned on this forum previous because few if any here had actually gone past basic testing with commercial product with this acetate approach.
Nice! I wish you the best! Thank you for answering my question.


When you obtain your acetate from vinegar, how do you plan to use it?

How long do you think it will take you to obtain the amount you would like to work with?

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 09:55 PM
Your driving need to establish control is another clear indicator Schmuldvich but because this is online rather than person to person my view is purely conjectural.

My thinking is that I shall just relax this vinegar making, let it run over several years rather then going into some kind of major production. Perhaps I shall use it with copper oxide to form an acetate which when distilled gives what Dubuis calls radical vinegar the use of which I haven't decided over. It will be fun to do though. There are a number of things running in the Lab currently so I have plenty to do.

Normally I would now threaten your need to control by asking what you are doing in your lab Schmuldvich but I can't be f**king bothered.

Dragon's Tail
09-01-2017, 10:23 PM
I appreciate your suggestion Dragon's Tail I will give it a try when my next barrel load is ready see if it increases yield appreciably.

Yes I get above 90% vinegar conc certainly, the vinegar is left behind, I let the system cool, equalise pressure empty receiving flask, remove vigreaux column then vacuum distil across the vinegar leaving sediment behind temp again below 90C to fit with Dubuis vegetable life theory.

Cool, let me know if it helps. In the meantime maybe I will get over my own bs and learn to hook up a vacuum line. It's something I want to do, I just want to be sure, as it's a new lab procedure for me and I don't want to mess anything up or break anything. I also don't want to chuck away a lot of money as it's in short supply at the moment.

Wish you the best with your experiment.

Axismundi000
09-01-2017, 10:31 PM
You must have a cold trap Dragon's Tail otherwise it all just goes upstream to the pump possibly damaging it. I use a reserviour flask with a carbon filter also, my current quest is to find a decent stop valve to isolate the distillation train the ones I have found don't allow vacuum as high as my pump delivers.

I'm always happy to chat lab nerd stuff Dragon's Tail.