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Luxus
09-01-2017, 02:20 PM
I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was

"The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."

Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

Earth > Water > Air > Fire

First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.

Kiorionis
09-01-2017, 03:44 PM
An order such as:

Fire -- Earth -- Air -- Water

?

Luxus
09-01-2017, 06:26 PM
An order such as:

Fire -- Earth -- Air -- Water

?

I guess you could play around with the order and see what happens but usually fire is not first because there is a belief with most that the most intense degree if put first will damage the matter. Nothing must be made to rise initially many say.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 06:40 PM
Nothing must be made to rise initially many say.
What does this mean to you?

(In relation to the rotation of the Elements)

Luxus
09-01-2017, 07:28 PM
What does this mean to you?

(In relation to the rotation of the Elements)

Well the fire element is what causes vapour to rise (through evaporation/sublimation) and this should not happen until the last two stages of the cooking process. But like I said I have found alchemists giving the phases in different orders. I haven't read a huge amount of text so its a new discovery for me.

Ice gives the best analogy Ice is a solid (earth)but if you heat it a little it becomes a liquid (water). If you heat water still further it becomes steam (air) and if you super heat it it becomes dry steam (fire)

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 07:38 PM
Ice gives the best analogy Ice is a solid (earth)but if you heat it a little it becomes a liquid (water). If you heat water still further it becomes steam (air) and if you super heat it it becomes dry steam (fire)

Beautiful analogy, Luxus!

Do you see the parallel of our Great Work with this statement you just posted?



Well the fire element is what causes vapour to rise (through evaporation/sublimation) and this should not happen until the last two stages of the cooking process. But like I said I have found alchemists giving the phases in different orders. I haven't read a huge amount of text so its a new discovery for me.

Yes! Ok, so if this should not happen until the last two Stages of the cooking process, what does that say about the first, our Preparation?

The only reason you see the Masters disagreeing is because you confuse the First Part when they are discussing the Second Part, or another Stage altogether. Very few Masters wrote linearly. When/if you decide to read more texts, you will see the parallels.

Sendivogius, Philalethes, and Arnold de Villa Nova would be a great place to start!

Luxus
09-01-2017, 08:30 PM
Beautiful analogy, Luxus!

Do you see the parallel of our Great Work with this statement you just posted?




Yes! Ok, so if this should not happen until the last two Stages of the cooking process, what does that say about the first, our Preparation?

The only reason you see the Masters disagreeing is because you confuse the First Part when they are discussing the Second Part, or another Stage altogether. Very few Masters wrote linearly. When/if you decide to read more texts, you will see the parallels.

Sendivogius, Philalethes, and Arnold de Villa Nova would be a great place to start!

Yes I see the rotation of the phases as part of the cooking. In total I believe there are three parts first is preparation of the first matter, second is cooking and third is the harvest. Yes perhaps I am confusing when they are talking about preparation with the cooking although in Donum Dei it seems to me he is actually talking about the cooking.

I will have to investigate further why they are giving these phases in different orders.

Schmuldvich
09-01-2017, 08:41 PM
In total I believe there are three parts first is preparation of the first matter, second is cooking and third is the harvest.
I think you are on to something here!

Luxus
09-02-2017, 10:28 AM
I think you are on to something here!

I hope so, that's the plan ;)

Kiorionis
09-02-2017, 08:23 PM
I guess you could play around with the order and see what happens but usually fire is not first because there is a belief with most that the most intense degree if put first will damage the matter. Nothing must be made to rise initially many say.

I wonder about this playfulness. I for one ascribe to the "let there be light" theory

Aries -- 1st sign -- Fire
Taurus -- 2nd sign -- Earth
Gemini -- 3rd sign -- Air
Cancer -- 4th sign -- Water

This elemental order is then "rotated" through the other 8 zodiac signs. I wonder why? :)

Haha maybe that's why the world is so "damaged".

Luxus
09-03-2017, 03:06 AM
I wonder about this playfulness. I for one ascribe to the "let there be light" theory

Aries -- 1st sign -- Fire
Taurus -- 2nd sign -- Earth
Gemini -- 3rd sign -- Air
Cancer -- 4th sign -- Water

This elemental order is then "rotated" through the other 8 zodiac signs. I wonder why? :)

Haha maybe that's why the world is so "damaged".

I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.

Michael Sternbach
09-03-2017, 09:43 AM
I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was

"The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."

Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

Earth > Water > Air > Fire

First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.

This is derived from Aristotle's cross of the four elements.


http://i66.tinypic.com/2s7x6co.png

The attribution of elements to seasons given in the Donum Dei is the scheme generally accepted in classical astrology.


I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.

What Kirionis gave is simply the attribution of the elements to the first four signs - a pattern that repeats itself throughout the zodiac.

Luxus
09-03-2017, 11:16 AM
Ok I get what Kirionis is doing now, and I think I have discovered why the variation. The two charts below contradict each other, the first one is the one I understood to be correct.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/image10/100531elements.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zJ8O4hDVzy0/UKKHOcPs9AI/AAAAAAAABsc/Cl-1RVpljaI/s1600/FourCorneredCorrespondances.jpg.jpeg

And another contradicting chart

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-deigXjdC_30/UAWHhpmuqrI/AAAAAAAAHrs/fDH75mjMlag/s1600/seasons-diagram-.jpg

Kiorionis
09-03-2017, 02:47 PM
I dont understand how you have tied the four elements to those signs to be honest, it is not how I understand it but maybe you are following a different system.


What Kiorionis gave is simply the attribution of the elements to the first four signs - a pattern that repeats itself throughout the zodiac.

Mr. Sternbach is correct :)

Lately, I've been especially interested in why the natural world is placed in this particular order of the elements.

So far I'm thinking the rotation is because: Fire is most easily turned into Earth, Earth is most easily turned into Air, Air is most easily turned into Water, and Water is the only thing which is able to alchemically unite with Fire (on account of it having been created out of the Fire the rotation begins with).

Michael Sternbach
09-03-2017, 08:23 PM
Mr. Sternbach is correct :)

Lately, I've been especially interested in why the natural world is placed in this particular order of the elements.

So far I'm thinking the rotation is because: Fire is most easily turned into Earth, Earth is most easily turned into Air, Air is most easily turned into Water, and Water is the only thing which is able to alchemically unite with Fire (on account of it having been created out of the Fire the rotation begins with).

It is an interesting question.

For one thing, this arrangement leads to signs of the same gender facing each other in the zodiac (Fire and Air, Water and Earth). Therefore, in regard of their zodiacal colouring, planets standing in opposition to each other were not looked at as totally dissimilar forces by the ancients.

elixirmixer
09-07-2017, 10:12 AM
we are talking about hermetic prinicipals you must remember. They are not 'real'.

They are symbology that assists the mind to make sense of things that otherwise we cannot understand.

Their are many different ways to look at the elements, their order, the way they respond to one another. And it is easy to 'justify' why one element might be positioned in a certain place and behave in a certain way, and just as easy to look at them in a different way and justify that.

We had the Chinese using 5 elements for thousands of years and then we just cut one out without any explanation or experimentation.

What I've noticed, is that elemental theory, just like the current chemistry 'Molecular Orbital' theory, leave a lot to be desired. There are some substances that we find while performing experiments in the lab that just do not fit into any of these categories, such as Sal Ammonical Salts, so often described as a 'Sulphur' due to its fiery properties, and yet, in the same experiment, ill extract a red oil or solute (depending how you work) which we call 'Tinture' or !Sulphur!? And again, if i dry distill a wet plant ( :p ) ill get two clear liquid fractions. First one being the "air" fraction, second being "water"

Now, technically, an Air and Water fraction of a thing can be described as Mercury, and yet, some would say that the Air faction has SM within it which makes it the mercury, however, we again use the "water" fraction to coax the Red Sulphur from the plant, making it what? Merc!!!!??

This system was DESIGNED to be very tricky and easily confuses anyone who isn't very serious about this art.

I can't wait to evolve to a place that doesn't use words. Words are just so, inaccurate and limiting. Nature isn't limited and it shouldn't be put into boxes, alas, as the low vibration creatures we are I suppose we have no choice at this stage in our development.

I have two orders of elements. Cosmic (creation): Fire, Air, Water, Earth; and Microcosmic (transformation): Air, Water, Fire, Earth.

pierre
09-07-2017, 01:55 PM
I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was

"The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."

Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

Earth > Water > Air > Fire

First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.



Hi, Luxus... I see this from the opposite side.

(Why not ) --- Fire > Air > Water > Earth ... ?

Even so, we can have success ! (or maybe not... ;) )

Michael Sternbach
09-11-2017, 11:46 AM
we are talking about hermetic prinicipals you must remember. They are not 'real'.

They are symbology that assists the mind to make sense of things that otherwise we cannot understand.

Their are many different ways to look at the elements, their order, the way they respond to one another. And it is easy to 'justify' why one element might be positioned in a certain place and behave in a certain way, and just as easy to look at them in a different way and justify that.

We had the Chinese using 5 elements for thousands of years and then we just cut one out without any explanation or experimentation.

What I've noticed, is that elemental theory, just like the current chemistry 'Molecular Orbital' theory, leave a lot to be desired. There are some substances that we find while performing experiments in the lab that just do not fit into any of these categories, such as Sal Ammonical Salts, so often described as a 'Sulphur' due to its fiery properties, and yet, in the same experiment, ill extract a red oil or solute (depending how you work) which we call 'Tinture' or !Sulphur!? And again, if i dry distill a wet plant ( :p ) ill get two clear liquid fractions. First one being the "air" fraction, second being "water"

Now, technically, an Air and Water fraction of a thing can be described as Mercury, and yet, some would say that the Air faction has SM within it which makes it the mercury, however, we again use the "water" fraction to coax the Red Sulphur from the plant, making it what? Merc!!!!??

This system was DESIGNED to be very tricky and easily confuses anyone who isn't very serious about this art.

I can't wait to evolve to a place that doesn't use words. Words are just so, inaccurate and limiting. Nature isn't limited and it shouldn't be put into boxes, alas, as the low vibration creatures we are I suppose we have no choice at this stage in our development.

I have two orders of elements. Cosmic (creation): Fire, Air, Water, Earth; and Microcosmic (transformation): Air, Water, Fire, Earth.

While it is true that our mind of necessity creates models that more or less aptly attempt to categorize and explain the reality that is "out there" (at least until something more satisfying is found), I don't see many of these models (especially in Hermetic and Daoist science) as kind of arbitrary, the way your post seems to suggest.

Many such systems are quite refined, on the basis of both long experience and "mathematical" (especially geometrical) consideration, and more about their universal validity and mutual interconnection will be revealed in due time. Also, seeming contradictions can and will be resolved eventually.

This is true for astrological, kabbalistic, alchemical, Daoist and other metaphysical systems, and maybe even for atomic shell models. :)

The occult sciences are in a process of progress much like the natural sciences, from my perspective.

Luxus
09-11-2017, 01:48 PM
Hi, Luxus... I see this from the opposite side.

(Why not ) --- Fire > Air > Water > Earth ... ?

Even so, we can have success ! (or maybe not... ;) )

The degree of heat usually increases rather then decreases in alchemical operations. This would suggest solid, liquid, gas, fire phase (earth,water,air,fire). With each stage the energy of the matter is being slowly argumented in the fire.

Kiorionis
09-11-2017, 03:19 PM
I agree about the increase in heat, Luxus. But if the end goal is a coagulate susbtance, it will finish the rotation as an earth.

Unless you separate it into 2 processes:
Solve -- volatilizing the fixt
coagula -- fixing the volatile

Schmuldvich
09-11-2017, 07:53 PM
I agree about the increase in heat, Luxus. But if the end goal is a coagulate susbtance, it will finish the rotation as an earth.

Unless you separate it into 2 processes:
Solve -- volatilizing the fixt
coagula -- fixing the volatile

Totally! And without getting overly cheesy I would say "the end is the Beginning, and the beginning is the End".

Luxus
09-11-2017, 08:14 PM
I agree about the increase in heat, Luxus. But if the end goal is a coagulate susbtance, it will finish the rotation as an earth.

Unless you separate it into 2 processes:
Solve -- volatilizing the fixt
coagula -- fixing the volatile

strictly speaking the last substance is brought about through conjunction ie that which is volatilised is attracted to that which is fixed.

Luxus
09-11-2017, 08:17 PM
Totally! And without getting overly cheesy I would say "the end is the Beginning, and the beginning is the End".

True but a spiral rather then a circle because each time you rotate the wheel the substance is augmented in power up a level.

Kibric
09-11-2017, 10:59 PM
I would say "the end is the Beginning, and the beginning is the End".
so sayeth the ruler of bethos :eek:

Kibric
09-11-2017, 11:55 PM
I was reading through the Donum Dei text yesterday and noticed the order of the elements was
"The first is winter cold and moist, the second is ver, hot and moist, and flourishing. The third is the summer time, hot and dry, and red. The fourth is the harvest cold and dry, which is the time of gathering of fruit."
Notice the rotation of elements is given as Water > Air > Fire > Earth

Mostly the elements are given from their grossest to their Subtlest:

Earth > Water > Air > Fire

The seasons are a guide on the action of the external/internal Fire

First I thought it was a mistake but then thinking further on this thought that it may be possible to rotate through the phases in a different order and still have success.
if your saying during the treatment of the matter (the seasons can be changed) you wont have a proper generation of the new Earth (Salt of Lunaria)


And it is necessary that our stone be drawn out of the natures (solid,liquid) of two bodies before the Elixir may be made complete, therefore it is worthily said: O water in form Pontic, or bitter which dissolves the Elements, O most greatest Nature, the creature of Nature which containeth Nature, and overcometh the nature of the meanys what cometh with light and with light it is engendered and she that is mother of all, how black a cloud hath she brought out.
The Earth 1st is essential in the operation, from the 1st body we draw a water/oil then from the water (2nd body) through its vapour/Air we generate a new earth
You need the Earth/servant (1st body) in order for Water/sister(2nd body) to be drawn from him
"so that nothing contrary enter with our stone, but put himself only conjoin the servant to his odoriferous sister"


The Matter of the Stone is a gross water agent, or that is a cold, congealing the water. And believe those stones to be more precious, which proceedeth from the animals than the other, Thou canst not prepare any kind of stone without Duenech, the green and liquid which is born in our mines
Born or drawn out of the Earth (inverse capillary action)
the Water/oil through the external fire turns into Air/vapour/Liquid crystal "the creature of Nature which containeth Nature"
and then through its own internal fire Air/vapour/Liquid crystal is turned into a new Earth (Salt of Lunaria)

The 1st Earth/body now dead after giving up its Oil, is not renewed but through the Water/Oil it yielded it is regenerated and formed into a new Earth


Our Stone is a body without sound mortifying and quickening, so that nothing contrary enter with our stone, but put himself only conjoin the servant to his odoriferous sister and between them the art shall be engendered. For if the white woman be married to the red man anon they do embrace and so [hawsinge] be coupled together, by themselves they be dissolved, and by themselves they be made, that they that were two is made as it were one body. And know that there be three perfect colours from the which all the others take there beginning. The first is black, the second white, and the third red, there be many other colours, but they be not to be cared for, for they vanish away oftentimes before the whiteness, Then is made the commixtion of two bodies, and it is necessary in our Magistery, and if there were but one only body of the two, in our Stone, it should now go be tincture by any manner of means, and therefore it is necessary the conjunction of these two bodies, which two when they be conjoined, and received in the commixtion of the Stone, the Stone is engendered in the belly of the wind, and that is that which the philosopher saith. The wind hath born (generated) him in his belly, it is plain that the wind is Air, and Air is life, and the life is the Soul, that is oil, and water. I that am exalted above all the circles of the world have four faces having one father, whereof one is in the mountains, an other in the Air, another in the Stones, and another in the caverns or hollow places.

Luxus
09-12-2017, 03:27 PM
Nice post Kibric!

Yes the alchemists were trying to recreate the subterranean process within our Earth in his glass, they believed mercury the father of all metals was cooked into the various metals within our Earth. Just as the seasons above ground changes the alchemists believed similar changes happened below the surface. In winter the subterranean heat was at its lowest and at the height of summer it was at its greatest. The alchemist adjusts his fire in sink with the change in the seasons hence four degrees of heat and one year to complete the rotation.

My confusion arose from noticing variance in the order among Alchemists. But for sure you cannot jump from summer to winter without going through autumn. You might be able to start in a different season (degree of heat) but the seasons (degrees) must follow their natural order ie

Summer > Autumn > Winter > Spring

Autumn > Winter > Spring > Summer

Winter > Spring > Summer > Autumn

Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter