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Amon
09-05-2017, 12:10 PM
We have been hearing again and again that the Mercury principle is the same in one kingdom. But, if ethanol is the Mercury of the vegetable kingdom (the vehicle/manifestation of the Mercury principle), does that also mean ethanol is the Mercury of trees? As far as i know, trees produce methanol, not ethanol. And last but not least, why is grain alcohol the best? Chemically speaking ethanol, no matter how its produced, has the same molecular structure and properties. What is it about grains specifically that makes them the best source for the Mercury? And since there is such a thing as "best Mercury in the vegetable kingdom", that means its not truly "the same" in the entire kingdom. Am i missing something here?

theFool
09-05-2017, 02:11 PM
We have been hearing again and again that the Mercury principle is the same in one kingdom. May I ask, which sources say that?

Kiorionis
09-05-2017, 02:41 PM
IMHO, a principle is a philosophic concept to work off, not necessarily a substance.

That being said, I'd say that generally, alcohols (not specifically ethanol) fit the characteristics pretty well

Amon
09-05-2017, 05:36 PM
May I ask, which sources say that?

I think it was either Junius or Frater Albertus. Not really autorities on the matter at hand but its a pretty bold claim... can't locate the exact part at the moment, will get back at you when i have it.

As for grape alcohol being the best, that's what Albertus says:

https://i.imgur.com/xS17QMs.png

theFool
09-05-2017, 06:15 PM
I think it was either Junius or Frater Albertus. Not really autorities on the matter at hand but its a pretty bold claim... can't locate the exact part at the moment, will get back at you when i have it.

As for grape alcohol being the best, that's what Albertus says:

https://i.imgur.com/xS17QMs.png Ok, thanks for the answer. As you said they are not really authorities. Well, they are in their own realm (which they have created themselves) but not in alchemy.

Illen A. Cluf
09-05-2017, 06:45 PM
Ok, thanks for the answer. As you said they are not really authorities. Well, they are in their own realm (which they have created themselves) but not in alchemy.

I'm curious. I wonder why you can see the image of the quote but I can't? At the end of Amon's message, it's blank, yet when you quoted him, the quote by Albertus appeared and is visible.

Is there a different setting that one has to use to see these imaged quotes? Administrator?

theFool
09-05-2017, 07:34 PM
I'm curious. I wonder why you can see the image of the quote but I can't? At the end of Amon's message, it's blank, yet when you quoted him, the quote by Albertus appeared and is visible.

Is there a different setting that one has to use to see these imaged quotes? Administrator? No, it is a mistaken link. I just fixed the link in my reply:

https://i.imgur.com/xS17QMs.png

Amon could edit his post later and fix it so it is visible there too.

Dragon's Tail
09-06-2017, 01:02 AM
We have been hearing again and again that the Mercury principle is the same in one kingdom. But, if ethanol is the Mercury of the vegetable kingdom (the vehicle/manifestation of the Mercury principle), does that also mean ethanol is the Mercury of trees? As far as i know, trees produce methanol, not ethanol. And last but not least, why is grain alcohol the best? Chemically speaking ethanol, no matter how its produced, has the same molecular structure and properties. What is it about grains specifically that makes them the best source for the Mercury? And since there is such a thing as "best Mercury in the vegetable kingdom", that means its not truly "the same" in the entire kingdom. Am i missing something here?

I'm going to attempt here not to deviate to the spagyrics vs alchemy stuff, but it's important to figure out what the Mercury means to you. Is it a solvent? A wine or grain spirit "touched by the herb?" Is it as easy as mixing some 190 proof with plant matter, and then distilling it back off?

Trees are part of the vegetable kingdom, at least to me. The old classification, which was only changed within the last 2 centuries, also included molds and fungus.

You've already mentioned trees producing methanol, and indeed this can be extracted. They produce numerous products in fact. Plants also interact with various microscopic organisms unknown to the ancients. Leafy matter attracts bacteria, while fruits and seeds attract yeasts. Both of these are further subdivided into aerobic and anaerobic species. Alcohol is generally made by exploiting anaerobic yeasts, and vinegar from aerobic bacterias. Wild acetobacter will generally make weak vinegars, around 3-5% acidity.

Then there is the soil they grow in, which might look mineral in nature, but is a composite of thousands or more life forms, all of them acting directly with plant matter, and in fact required by it.

There are lots of options for a "better solvent," and for a "living mercury." Experiment. Try things. Compare your findings to old texts through interpretation yes, but also focus on nature. Look at how the elements interact through the life of a plant. Ask yourself, "what is a seed?" "what is a plant?" "How do they grow and die, and turn to the food of other plants?"

I think alcohol is a "good" solvent for the plant kingdom, and it's easy enough to procure, but what kind of solvent could make you spagyrical goals easier to attain? I can't give you an answer because it depends on what exactly you wish to extract, and how the method jives with your spirituality.

"Seek, and ye shall find."

Axismundi000
09-06-2017, 07:59 AM
So firstly my observation here is about plant Spagyrics not plant Alchemy. The practical reason why ethanol is the Spagyric Mercury for plant work is because you can brew alcohol from for example grapes and then add it to dried dead plant matter of an entirely different plant. Leave it to macerate in a sealed container and produce a Spagyric final product, I have done this a number of times with different types of Spagyric finished product. So alcohol (ethanol) can be used as a Universal Spagyric menstruum for plant Spagyrics. Whether or not it is the only such Spagyric Mercury for plants I do not know, I haven't seen any practical material showing how methanol or any other compound can serve the same purpose.

Dragon's Tail
09-06-2017, 12:07 PM
I believe vinegar has many of the same "qualities" when it comes to that. It makes a very different product, but it follows the principles and form of spagyrics. I haven't experimented with it personally, but it should preserve the final product and actually drink up the "salts" much more readily than ethanol.

Then again, it will change some of the salts in the process. I'm not sure if the acetate molecules will be strong enough to keep the final product from going bad over time.

theFool
09-06-2017, 12:14 PM
As far as i know, trees produce methanol, not ethanol. Are you sure about this? Wood is difficult to ferment. Even then it produces ethanol because of it having lots of glucose. Methanol is produced only by the dry distillation of wood.

Dragon's Tail
09-06-2017, 05:02 PM
Are you sure about this? Wood is difficult to ferment. Even then it produces ethanol because of it having lots of glucose. Methanol is produced only by the dry distillation of wood.

Both are produced in fermentation of anything, but much less methanol appears in wine and beer. It's the main cause of hangover the next day. When distilled, methanol is usually separated out, as it concentrates in the distillation just like alcohol, and any other -ols. But you are definitely right that the dry-distillation actually "creates" it... somehow. I guess we just aren't as good at transforming plant matter as yeast is. :)

We tend to stray away from using it for a solvent, I think in part, due to it's "toxicity," but toxicity depends on dosage, so I wouldn't fear a product that was solved in methanol, as long as I'm not taking the stuff straight. Maybe if such a tincture were dried and "washed" in another solvent. Tincture dose sizes are usually in drops anyway. When I get up my nerve, I may prepare some of this distillation product in my lab, explicitly for such a purpose. Hollandus and many others ellude to it in their alchemy works.