PDA

View Full Version : Origin of the Term "Philosopher's Stone"



Luxus
09-23-2017, 05:20 PM
What is the origin of the term "philosophers stone" ?

Personally I think it was originally called a dragon stone, snake stone, dragon jewel, snake jewel, dragon pearl, snake pearl, dragon egg, snake egg, dragons blood, snakes blood etc Basically it was always connected with dragons and snakes until the word dragon was substituted for philosophers. This would bring you to the question why is a philosopher a dragon?

JDP
09-24-2017, 12:30 AM
What is the origin of the term "philosophers stone" ?

Personally I think it was originally called a dragon stone, snake stone, dragon jewel, snake jewel, dragon pearl, snake pearl, dragon egg, snake egg, dragons blood, snakes blood etc Basically it was always connected with dragons and snakes until the word dragon was substituted for philosophers. This would bring you to the question why is a philosopher a dragon?

It's from expressions used by the Alexandrian and Byzantine alchemists, who referred to "a stone that is not a stone". These earlier Greek-speaking alchemists actually used other words or expressions, like "xerion" ("medicinal powder", which gave origin to the word "elixir"), "pharmakon", "ios", "tinging poison", etc., for the same thing that later on would become more customary to call the "Philosophers' Stone".

Luxus
09-24-2017, 07:10 PM
Thanks JDP,

the first western mention of an object which is clearly the stone that I know about is the pantarbe stone of Apollonius of Tyana who lived 1-2nd AD. It is red, glows, is formed in the Earth (as all metals) and its root substance is the fleeting mercury (as all metals).
What is interesting about the production of these early stones is that rituals and incantations are required for its production. Zosimos of Panopolis who lived at the end of 3rd AD says the same thing about the production of his xerion ie incantations are required in its production.


about the stone which attracts and binds to itself other stones you must not be sceptical; for you can see the stone yourself if you like, and admire its properties. For the greatest specimen is exactly of the size of this finger nail," and here he pointed to his own thumb, "and it is conceived in a hollow in the earth at a depth of four fathoms; but it is so highly endowed with spirit, that the earth swells and breaks open in many places when the stone is conceived in it. But no one can get hold of it, for it runs away, unless it is scientifically attracted; but we alone can secure, partly by performance of certain rites and partly by certain forms of words, this pantarbe, for such is the name given to it. Now in the night-time it glows like the day just as fire might, for it is red and gives out rays; and if you look at it in the daytime it smites your eyes with a thousand glints and gleams. And the light within it is a spirit of mysterious power, for it absorbs to itself everything in its neighbourhood. And why do I say in its neighbourhood? Why you can sink anywhere in river or in sea as many stones as you like, and these not even near to one another, but here there; and everywhere; and then if you let down this stone among them by a string it gathers them all together by the diffusion of its spirit, and the stones yield to its influence and cling to it in bunch, like a swarm of bees."

AND having said this he showed the stone itself and all that it was capable of effecting.http://www.mountainman.com.au/atyana38.html


Zosimos notes the possibility, in passing. When the objective of alchemy became human salvation, the material constitution of the elixir became less important than the incantations that accompanied its production. https://www.britannica.com/topic/alchemy

If the material from which "the stone" is composed is less important then the incantation needed to empower it we are talking then of the philosophers stone being a magic talisman which can be made from a number of materials which is empowered by magic ritual and incantations.

JDP
09-24-2017, 11:30 PM
Thanks JDP,

the first western mention of an object which is clearly the stone that I know about is the pantarbe stone of Apollonius of Tyana who lived 1-2nd AD. It is red, glows, is formed in the Earth (as all metals) and its root substance is the fleeting mercury (as all metals).
What is interesting about the production of these early stones is that rituals and incantations are required for its production. Zosimos of Panopolis who lived at the end of 3rd AD says the same thing about the production of his xerion ie incantations are required in its production.

I don't remember Zosimos ever saying such things or giving any "incantations" to make the Stone. All the texts of his I have read already feature such common devices of alchemical literature as "decknamen", allegories, analogies, etc. but I can't remember any such thing as "incantations" in any of them. He did believe in such things as "daemons" and the like uncorroborated entities, to be sure, but that was common of most men of those times. Superstition and blind belief in unproven things was rampant in older times. Let us be thankful that most modern men have been able to break free from the chains of blind faith in unproven things that no one has ever seen and instead concentrated their attention more on things that can actually be observed, manipulated, investigated and proven to be real (i.e. empiricism.)


If the material from which "the stone" is composed is less important then the incantation needed to empower it we are talking then of the philosophers stone being a magic talisman which can be made from a number of materials which is empowered by magic ritual and incantations.

I would say that the "incantations" are totally unnecessary and the product of some superstitious minds who attempted their hand at alchemy and started projecting their fanciful unproven beliefs onto the subject. But most alchemists in fact do not say anything about any such "incantations" being involved in making the Stone. Later on many of them believed in prayers for success and so forth, but without "magic" rituals involved. Just like many doctors also "prayed" to "God" for the health of their patients, but that does not mean that medicine really works because of such unproven things. When their patients got cured it was because the old doctors had done something tangible and real that actually was effective in curing the problem, not because some unproven invisible entity was really somewhere "out there" 24/7 actually attentively listening and answering their prayers.

Luxus
09-25-2017, 06:35 PM
It is in the encyclopaedia Britannica the claim or Zosimos believing the incantations were more important then the matter used, they are not known for making unsupported claims so I trust that he must have stated this. I do not have access to all his available works however.

What is interesting then is that Zosimos believed the elixir could be made from various starting materials and that the process was the major factor.

JDP
09-26-2017, 01:49 AM
It is in the encyclopaedia Britannica the claim or Zosimos believing the incantations were more important then the matter used, they are not known for making unsupported claims so I trust that he must have stated this. I do not have access to all his available works however.

If you understand French, you can read translations of most of the surviving Greek-language fragments of his works here:

https://archive.org/stream/collectiondesanc23bert#page/116/mode/2up

I can't remember seeing anything about any "incantations" supposedly being necessary to make the Stone there. Also, luckily two of his complete works survived in Arabic translation, and now have been translated into English (thankfully for all of us who are deep into the older alchemical literature and have been literally waiting for OVER A DECADE for some of these old texts to finally be translated into a modern language) and can be purchased here:

http://www.livinghumanheritage.org/?p=105

http://www.livinghumanheritage.org/?p=231

And same thing as with the surviving Greek-language fragments: there is nothing there about any "incantations" supposedly being necessary to make the Stone.


What is interesting then is that Zosimos believed the elixir could be made from various starting materials and that the process was the major factor.

Nope, once again, if you examine his works you will see that he says and implies pretty much the same thing as most other alchemists, both before and after him: there are a certain limited number of substances that are employed in the process of making the Stone, and, due to this, these substances and their reactions are covered and spoken of under a barrage of "decknamen", allegories, similes, analogies, fairy tales, generalized descriptions (never too specific, for fear it would be too easy for the "vulgar" to figure some of them out), etc., and obviously not plainly & clearly described under their proper real common names that everyone knows, because if they had not done so then just about anyone would be able to prepare it, something they were certainly NOT inclined to allow to happen (the alchemists did not share the modern "egalitarian" and "democratic" views of our modern scientists, they were consummate ELITISTS who wanted a small minority of people, more specifically only those they considered their "peers", to partake of this knowledge and take advantage of it.)

Chrysa Lead
10-24-2018, 10:49 PM
Hello !

What I will write engage only me and I will write it because of some concrete experiences, not because of some readings or thoughts.
Don't search for a book which speak about it, you wont find it.
Only the ones who are living this adventure decide to share it or not and only in a "direct way", by personnal exchanges.

The name of "philosopher's stone" is the result of a wrong translation in english, why ?
Because it doesn't show the esoteric meaning of what it is.

In french, the name we use is "Pierre Philosophale".
Pierre = Stone
Philosophale = oops no english word for that.

Outside the field of alchemy, "philosophical" would be used to this translation, but we are in the field of alchemy and we can't use it.
It will be not easy to explain. I try ...

"Philosophale" means that it doesn't belong to the world of matter.
"Stone" means that it belongs to the world of matter ...

I'm not jocking !

The "Pierre Philosophale" is a step where the both worlds of "matter" and "non matter" meet eachother.

The philosopher's stone is not "a thing", this name "stone" is just used to give "the clue" that it belongs to the world of matter because "when it happens" you get a visible sign.
What the english name of it doesn't explain at all is that this "thing" is not perceptible by touch (because it belongs to the world of "non matter".

This story of the philosopher's stone is complexe because ancient Adepts had, at their time, to speak about it in a hiding way.

I saw the thread "What happens when you ingest the stone ?"

When an alchemist get the philosopher's stone (a very special sign we can compared to a diploma "from God" to validate his work), his "matter" transmutes and becomes ... very special ...
What the adept can ingest is not "the stone", but what results of the transmutation caused by "it".
What happens then ? It depens of the spiritual level of this person, it can be nothing or everything.

And when I write "evrerything", it's realy limiteless.

See you soon.

Catherine

Kibric
10-24-2018, 11:54 PM
Sorry to bust your balls, but no. Its physical, and a pain in the neck.


The philosopher's stone is not "a thing", this name "stone" is just used to give "the clue" that it belongs to the world of matter because "when it happens" you get a visible sign.
What you got maybe was nagual transmission ?, Andro or OBE'ers might be able to help you :D

JDP
10-25-2018, 12:18 AM
Hello !

What I will write engage only me and I will write it because of some concrete experiences, not because of some readings or thoughts.
Don't search for a book which speak about it, you wont find it.
Only the ones who are living this adventure decide to share it or not and only in a "direct way", by personnal exchanges.

The name of "philosopher's stone" is the result of a wrong translation in english, why ?
Because it doesn't show the esoteric meaning of what it is.

In french, the name we use is "Pierre Philosophale".
Pierre = Stone
Philosophale = oops no english word for that.

Outside the field of alchemy, "philosophical" would be used to this translation, but we are in the field of alchemy and we can't use it.
It will be not easy to explain. I try ...

"Philosophale" means that it doesn't belong to the world of matter.
"Stone" means that it belongs to the world of matter ...

I'm not jocking !

The "Pierre Philosophale" is a step where the both worlds of "matter" and "non matter" meet eachother.

The philosopher's stone is not "a thing", this name "stone" is just used to give "the clue" that it belongs to the world of matter because "when it happens" you get a visible sign.
What the english name of it doesn't explain at all is that this "thing" is not perceptible by touch (because it belongs to the world of "non matter".

This story of the philosopher's stone is complexe because ancient Adepts had, at their time, to speak about it in a hiding way.

I saw the thread "What happens when you ingest the stone ?"

When an alchemist get the philosopher's stone (a very special sign we can compared to a diploma "from God" to validate his work), his "matter" transmutes and becomes ... very special ...
What the adept can ingest is not "the stone", but what results of the transmutation caused by "it".
What happens then ? It depens of the spiritual level of this person, it can be nothing or everything.

And when I write "evrerything", it's realy limiteless.

See you soon.

Catherine

"Philosophale" refers to "Philosophy" or "of the Philosophers", how alchemists often self-styled themselves. It has nothing to do with the wacky uncorroborated theories/speculation you are exposing.

Chrysa Lead
10-25-2018, 12:40 AM
I don't have any balls so, you cant bust it lol

Seriously, it was not at all a nagual transmission ...
This thread is about the origin of a term, not about what I got.

If you think that the philosopher's stone is physical ...
The big majority of people who didn't get it have the same opinion than yours.
Only a small minority of people who didn't get it understood that it's not perceptible by touch.

I'm not here to convice, I will never do it.

Answers come by experiences, not by readings or thoughts.

Catherine

Chrysa Lead
10-25-2018, 01:37 AM
"Philosophale" refers to "Philosophy" or "of the Philosophers", how alchemists often self-styled themselves. It has nothing to do with the wacky uncorroborated theories/speculation you are exposing.

"Philosophale" 's hermetic meaning doesn't refers at all to "of the Philosophers".
In french, this adjective is used only in alchemy's field and not in the philosophical one.

We have two terms for two different fields, in english you have only one term for philosophical field.
The translation cant be done with one word or one sentence.

As always, translate is not easy ... And in this case the sens of "Pierre Philosophale" is not transposed in "Philosopher's Stone".
Doesn't matter if you find the meaning in another way ;)

I was just wishing to say that in french the sens of the adjective is not the philosophical english one.

JDP
10-25-2018, 02:07 AM
I don't have any balls so, you cant bust it lol

Seriously, it was not at all a nagual transmission ...
This thread is about the origin of a term, not about what I got.

If you think that the philosopher's stone is physical ...
The big majority of people who didn't get it have the same opinion than yours.
Only a small minority of people who didn't get it understood that it's not perceptible by touch.

I'm not here to convice, I will never do it.

Answers come by experiences, not by readings or thoughts.

Catherine

Tell this nonsense to all the historical witnesses who saw and/or handled the Stone. I am sure they would have a very good laugh.

JDP
10-25-2018, 02:11 AM
"Philosophale" 's hermetic meaning doesn't refers at all to "of the Philosophers".
In french, this adjective is used only in alchemy's field and not in the philosophical one.

We have two terms for two different fields, in english you have only one term for philosophical field.
The translation cant be done with one word or one sentence.

As always, translate is not easy ... And in this case the sens of "Pierre Philosophale" is not transposed in "Philosopher's Stone".
Doesn't matter if you find the meaning in another way ;)

I was just wishing to say that in french the sens of the adjective is not the philosophical english one.

The word "philosophale" in French is obviously derived from the exact same word as the English "philosophical". All these terms derive from "philosophy". If modern French wants to relegate the form "philosophale" to alchemy only, that's a different thing. It would be a convention made by "outsiders" (i.e. non-alchemists) The alchemists themselves did not envision such a thing, though. They fancied themselves "philosophers", and that's what all these appellations ("philosophical", "philosophers'", "philosophale", etc.) for the Stone refer to. Nothing else.

Chrysa Lead
10-25-2018, 08:37 AM
The word "philosophale" in French is obviously derived from the exact same word as the English "philosophical". All these terms derive from "philosophy".

This is not what I was speaking about ...
My english is not perfect at all but I think that "hermetic meaning" was clear enough ... Maybe not.


"Tell this nonsense to all the historical witnesses who saw and/or handled the Stone. I am sure they would have a very good laugh."

I wish you to understand one day ...
By calling the philosopher's stone "the Stone" you/people wont help the process of understanding.

As I wrote it, I'm not here to convice at all.
I wish just some exchanges about experimentations with alchemits.

This thread is about the origin ot the term "philosopher's stone".
Let's go back to it.

If ancient Adepts (I don't speak about witnesses who got nothing, but about Adepts who got it) was creating this term it was not for nothing !
They left behind them an enormus clue not an enormous joke.

What is the philosopher's stone ?
This question need a thread and I suppose it already exists here ... Of course.

The origine of the term is directly linked to what happens when you progress in your path.
If you cut everything from the world of "non matter" in your Labora, you will loose lots of time.

Ora & Labora : the both are needed.

I'm speaking about it because I made the same mistake than you but in the other way.
I was cutting everything from the world of "matter" in my path, and I lost 4 decades ...

Through Labora I got answers about my questions, because answers come with concrete experimentations.
For you it will be the same, your questions will get answers with you Ora because Ora is a concrete experimentation too.

Alchemy is not only Ora or only Labora ... This is a fact.
Alchemy is an Art and it works as an Art.
We have to accept it if we want to progress.

The term "philosoper's stone" has 2 parts ... This is a fact.
It's not for nothing. Every part is a clue.
We have to accept it : this is the first step.
Catherine

Chrysa Lead
10-25-2018, 08:51 AM
The origin of the term "philosopher's stone" was explained to me in my "Labora" :

What do you see on this picture ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/009_tr12.jpg

another wiew

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/008-fr11.jpg

And on this one ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/20170910.jpg

And on this one ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/02210.jpg

See you later

JDP
10-25-2018, 12:04 PM
This is not what I was speaking about ...
My english is not perfect at all but I think that "hermetic meaning" was clear enough ... Maybe not.



I wish you to understand one day ...
By calling the philosopher's stone "the Stone" you/people wont help the process of understanding.

As I wrote it, I'm not here to convice at all.
I wish just some exchanges about experimentations with alchemits.

This thread is about the origin ot the term "philosopher's stone".
Let's go back to it.

If ancient Adepts (I don't speak about witnesses who got nothing, but about Adepts who got it) was creating this term it was not for nothing !
They left behind them an enormus clue not an enormous joke.

What is the philosopher's stone ?
This question need a thread and I suppose it already exists here ... Of course.

The origine of the term is directly linked to what happens when you progress in your path.
If you cut everything from the world of "non matter" in your Labora, you will loose lots of time.

Ora & Labora : the both are needed.

I'm speaking about it because I made the same mistake than you but in the other way.
I was cutting everything from the world of "matter" in my path, and I lost 4 decades ...

Through Labora I got answers about my questions, because answers come with concrete experimentations.
For you it will be the same, your questions will get answers with you Ora because Ora is a concrete experimentation too.

Alchemy is not only Ora or only Labora ... This is a fact.
Alchemy is an Art and it works as an Art.
We have to accept it if we want to progress.

The term "philosoper's stone" has 2 parts ... This is a fact.
It's not for nothing. Every part is a clue.
We have to accept it : this is the first step.
Catherine

You are naively and uncritically accepting the religious beliefs and superstitions of the alchemists from centuries ago as if they were some sort of "facts". There is no need whatsoever for "ora" (prayer) in alchemy. It is about as useless as praying to Santa for toys, or to Joe Pesci for beating up your bothersome neighbor (see George Carlin's hilarious comedy bit about how useless and silly prayers are. Much like him, I also "pray" to Joe Pesci, and I find that it is just about as "effective" as "praying" to some supposed "God", LOL! But at least I can easily believe in Joe Pesci, though. He is very much real.)

The origin of the term "Stone" for this transmuting SUBSTANCE goes back to the Alexandrian and Byzantine literature, which posed the "paradox" that "it's a stone that is not a stone". The meaning of this is obviously that it is not a common stone/rock as we find them in mountains or the roadsides, but it resembles them in some ways, as well as that some minerals can be used in its preparation. Another dent into your absurd theories: the older alchemists in fact preferred to call it things like "Xerion" (among the Greek speaking ones) and "al-Iksir" (among the Arabic speaking ones, who got this word based on the aforementioned Greek term "Xerion", and then the Latin speaking alchemists would Latinize this word from Arabic as "Elixir"), term meaning "the powder", "desiccative powder" or "medicine powder". Touché!

As for the physicality of the Stone: it is not only confirmed by the historical witnesses who saw samples of it with their own eyes and/or handled it with their own hands, but by the alchemists themselves, whose descriptions of it are all physical: it can present itself in the form of a heavy, brittle, red, orange, yellow or white solid substance, which can be powdered, or as a colored (usually red or yellow) liquid. All of these forms depend on certain factors of its preparation. In fact, since way back to the earliest literature there was always a duality of this substance: a white and a red forms. The first one turned base metals into silver, the second one into gold.

JDP
10-25-2018, 12:14 PM
The origin of the term "philosopher's stone" was explained to me in my "Labora" :

What do you see on this picture ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/009_tr12.jpg

another wiew

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/008-fr11.jpg

And on this one ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/20170910.jpg

And on this one ?

https://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/19/92/97/37/02210.jpg

See you later

I see totally unidentified random colored substances and solutions that could be... oh, just a bit short of just about anything!

Chrysa Lead
10-25-2018, 12:44 PM
There is no need whatsoever for "ora" (prayer) in alchemy.

What is Alchemy for you then ?
Don't answer here, it's not the right place to speak about it.

I wont repeat what I already wrote.

Every way is valid when it brings you to the right door.
But without keys, doors stay closed.


I see totally unidentified random colored substances and solutions that could be... oh, just a bit short of just about anything!

Thanks for your answer.

Kibric
10-26-2018, 11:37 PM
Seriously, it was not at all a nagual transmission
Ok. There's a great website i've been trying to find for years that gave you transmissions, they're clairvoyance was scary.


Only a small minority of people who didn't get it understood that it's not perceptible by touch.

world of matter because "when it happens" you get a visible sign.
This sign did it shine purple ?

Do you mean, oil seaping from some bibles, a strange liquid or salt seemingly coming from nowhere ?.