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Schmuldvich
11-15-2017, 09:59 PM
without "Fire", the results are scarce.

How do you define "Fire"?

What is "Fire" in your experiements?

Kiorionis
11-15-2017, 10:07 PM
But the dry way is long, expensive, difficult. I prefer simple methods and more meaningful results.

Curious. I've always heard that the "Dry Way" is supposed to be shorter, but more difficult.

Cyrano
11-15-2017, 10:57 PM
How do you define "Fire"?

What is "Fire" in your experiements?

Alchemical "Fire" its the animating element.In reality,there are two fires;one its cold and another its hot.Take them separetely,then join together, and you will be able to manifest everithing of the material world.Look at the Emerald Tablet.But remember that the visible light its an effect;not the cause.I cannot be clearer...

Cyrano
11-15-2017, 11:43 PM
Curious. I've always heard that the "Dry Way" is supposed to be shorter, but more difficult.

In my experience,the Wet Way its more profitable,because we dont need high temperatures;the matters can be mixed and reacted in very short times,and one can start using common chemicals,-if- you know how to concentrate, and fix the Animating Agent in it. Remember,in primis, that the Fire,can be transferred and fixed only if the elements are in solution...
Dont forget that its necessary a gestation period.Its very difficult using a furnace to mantain stable and progressive temperatures,to not volatilize the Spirit....

Schmuldvich
11-15-2017, 11:49 PM
Alchemical "Fire" its the animating element.In reality,there are two fires;one its cold and another its hot.Take them separetely,then join together, and you will be able to manifest everithing of the material world.Look at the Emerald Tablet.But remember that the visible light. its an effect;not the cause.I cannot be clearer...


Certainly. I would agree that our Fire can be seen as the animating element in Alchemy. Many people talk about these two Fires, one being hot and the other being cold, and I have also heard it presented as one being inner and the other being outer, but how would you describe the two 'separate' Fires in our Work, Cyrano? Are either of these Fires visible when separated? Have you seen what happens when these two Fires are conjoined?

What part of the Emerald Tablet would you recommend studying in reference to our Fire?

Kibric
11-16-2017, 12:25 AM
Alchemical "Fire" it is the animating element" In reality,there are two fires;one its cold and another its hot.Take them separetely,then join together, and you will be able to manifest everithing of the material world.Look at the Emerald Tablet.But remember that the visible light its an effect;not the cause.I cannot be clearer..
this already has a lot of different meanings to people, im not sure i follow

the animating element , Strictly practically " our secret fire " has been called our water, its fume/vapour whitens it
the water has an internal fire " it doesn't wet the hands "
a water that does not wet, slightly burns instead

it has become our secret fire because without it there is no conjuncture with the earth
the water has to be present for the work to completed in every method at every temperature

the amount of external fire varies on the method, the heat of a hand , the heat of an oven, the heat of the room
in all instances it is the water that causes the reaction in its own earth, the external heat sets to work the internal heat of the water upon the earth

Schmuldvich
11-16-2017, 12:41 AM
But the dry way is long, expensive, difficult. I prefer simple methods and more meaningful results. In my experience,the Wet Way its more profitable,because we dont need high temperatures;the matters can be mixed and reacted in very short times,and one can start using common chemicals,-if- you know how to concentrate, and fix the Animating Agent in it. Remember,in primis, that the Fire,can be transferred and fixed only if the elements are in solution...Dont forget that its necessary a gestation period.Its very difficult using a furnace to mantain stable and progressive temperatures,to not volatilize the Spirit....

Can you tell us about your experience in the Wet Way? What kind of reactions happen in a short time with this path?

Regarding the Dry Way, what makes it an expensive path?


I am still curious your opinion on our Fire too; it seems you have a lot of experience to share!

Cyrano
11-16-2017, 11:40 AM
OK, everyone here wants to lift up the veil of Isis,but I can give you only hints.
Read the following statement.It's the truth in plain and simple words,that can be used in Particular and Universal paths:
According to the old Masters the earth came forth out of the Chaos, or the
Prima Materia. Our first task therefore is to bring any material substance
with which we are working back into its Chaos, if we use the alchemist's
language, or to dissolve and change it into its first or chaotic state. The
concept of dissolution is here well enough established. It does not deal with
an annihilation but with a certain degree of dissolvement or rearrangement
where the building up of energy takes place and infuses the entire work with
life and forms it; however, only after the so-called corporeal has been
reduced. The objective or the contents of the entire work can be expressed in
one sentence or guide line of Natural Philosophers, out of which has evolved
their sovereign rulership over matter: solve et coagula!(separate and unite.)

Schmuldvich
11-16-2017, 12:16 PM
OK, everyone here wants to lift up the veil of Isis,but I can give you only hints.

http://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif http://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif




Read the following statement.It's the truth in plain and simple words,that can be used in Particular and Universal paths:

According to the old Masters the earth came forth out of the Chaos, or the Prima Materia. Our first task therefore is to bring any material substance with which we are working back into its Chaos, if we use the alchemist's language, or to dissolve and change it into its first or chaotic state. The concept of dissolution is here well enough established. It does not deal with an annihilation but with a certain degree of dissolvement or rearrangement where the building up of energy takes place and infuses the entire work with life and forms it; however, only after the so-called corporeal has been reduced. The objective or the contents of the entire work can be expressed in one sentence or guide line of Natural Philosophers, out of which has evolved their sovereign rulership over matter: solve et coagula!(separate and unite.)

I too can post quotes from random websites that I don't understand and sound holier-than-thou, it's really easy, which I was I was asking you specifically your opinion.

In the above quote, what does this "rearrangement" entail?

What do you understand our Chaos to be?

I am more so interested in how you would describe these two separate Fires you brought up earlier than discussing a random quote. I am also curious your experience in the Wet Way and Dry Way.

You mentioned the Emerald Tablet earlier, but didn't provide any explicit study points other than "study the Emerald Tablet". What particular parts would you recommend in reference to this discussion?

Axismundi000
11-16-2017, 12:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif http://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif





I too can post quotes from random websites that I don't understand and sound holier-than-thou, it's really easy, which I was I was asking you specifically your opinion.

In the above quote, what does this "rearrangement" entail?

What do you understand our Chaos to be?

I am more so interested in how you would describe these two separate Fires you brought up earlier than discussing a random quote. I am also curious your experience in the Wet Way and Dry Way.

You mentioned the Emerald Tablet earlier, but didn't provide any explicit study points other than "study the Emerald Tablet". What particular parts would you recommend in reference to this discussion?

Indeed Schmuldvich you can indeed quote from websites and various sources. You also provide various imagery which sometimes not directly related to the text you consider appropriate. If I were to print out all the material you have posted of this type of thing and paste it all together how many metres would it measure I wonder?

Hellin Hermetist
11-16-2017, 02:12 PM
I too can post quotes from random websites that I don't understand and sound holier-than-thou, it's really easy, which I was I was asking you specifically your opinion.

Its ok. You are doing this thing all the time. Sometimes you even post whole treatises, not simply quotes. You dont have to criticize someone who follows your own methods.

Kiorionis
11-16-2017, 02:19 PM
Hi. Let's remember to stay on topic and have constructive conversations.

Cyrano
11-16-2017, 02:25 PM
Schmuldvich,

I don't like your tones,so,please moderate yourself or I will leave.

I posted the quote because I agree completely with it,because I got practical results following the statements in the text.

The rearrangement its the Temple you have to build to receive the Spirit.
The Chaos its the Matter you have to open first,before to receive the Spirit.Its part of the rearrangement.
The two Fires are the generative forces of the Cosmos, that consumes everithing that it is impure and give the same power to the Bathed Child and give to him the power to multiply.
You have to study the Aurea Catena Homeri, to understand what is going on in the Emerald Tablet.
I have completed the First Operation of the Sun,in the Wet and Dry way, but I prefer the Wet because its more simple to me.

ORA,LEGE,LEGE,LEGE,RELEGE et INVENIES.

Schmuldvich
11-16-2017, 05:15 PM
I have completed the First Operation of the Sun,in the Wet and Dry way, but I prefer the Wet because its more simple to me.

Very cool! I had a feeling you had a lot of experience to share!

Can you explain what you mean by the "First Operation Of The Sun"? Are you able to do anything worthwhile (if so, what?) with what you completed?

We have a great discussion on the 'Dry Path' here: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4834-Short-Dry-Path-(Ars-Brevis)

Did you use the Acetic Acid Process in your Wet Way or Dry Way operation?

Cyrano
11-16-2017, 07:21 PM
Very cool! I had a feeling you had a lot of experience to share!

Can you explain what you mean by the "First Operation Of The Sun"? Are you able to do anything worthwhile (if so, what?) with what you completed?
Mmmm....have you ever read the Emerald Tablet.No,I suppose.Every alchemical paths descends from the one described in the Tabula.Actually it describes a series of physical phenomenons,that happen every day all around us.But if someone is capable to figure out the meanings of the words of the Sacred Text,hes capable to make the Philosopher's Stone.The First Operation of the Sun its the completion of the Great Work....

We have a great discussion on the 'Dry Path' here: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4834-Short-Dry-Path-(Ars-Brevis
No,Thanks.The thread is followed by a nasty guy that I don't like.

Did you use the Acetic Acid Process in your Wet Way or Dry Way operation?
The acetic acid process has nothing to do with the wet or dry way.It was a 'particular' that I tryed about twenty years ago,when I knew nothing about Alchemy.

Schmuldvich
11-16-2017, 07:48 PM
The acetic acid process has nothing to do with the wet or dry way.It was a 'particular' that I tryed about twenty years ago,when I knew nothing about Alchemy.

How did you complete the "First Operation of the Sun"?

Cyrano
11-16-2017, 09:02 PM
How did you complete the "First Operation of the Sun"?

Sorry,no free cake here.

Kiorionis
11-16-2017, 11:01 PM
How did you complete the "First Operation of the Sun"?


Alchemical "Fire" its the animating element.In reality,there are two fires;one its cold and another its hot.Take them separetely,then join together, and you will be able to manifest everithing of the material world.Look at the Emerald Tablet.But remember that the visible light its an effect;not the cause.I cannot be clearer...

Hmmm.... lol

Axismundi000
11-16-2017, 11:06 PM
Alchemical "Fire" its the animating element.In reality,there are two fires;one its cold and another its hot.Take them separetely,then join together, and you will be able to manifest everithing of the material world.Look at the Emerald Tablet.But remember that the visible light its an effect;not the cause.I cannot be clearer...

This I think is analogous to Bardon’s electric and magnetic fluids which underlie the elements and creation. Very interesting thank you.

Kiorionis
11-17-2017, 01:09 AM
This I think is analogous to Bardon’s electric and magnetic fluids which underlie the elements and creation. Very interesting thank you.

Technically, it's only the first half of the quadripolar magnet. "Fire", whether hot or cold, cannot exist without "Water" as its defining opposite. The Hot and Cold "Fires" are still of the nature of fire.

Cyrano
11-17-2017, 01:28 AM
This I think is analogous to Bardon’s electric and magnetic fluids which underlie the elements and creation. Very interesting thank you.

You hit the nail on the head.Bravo!

Axismundi000
11-17-2017, 01:54 AM
Technically, it's only the first half of the quadripolar magnet. "Fire", whether hot or cold, cannot exist without "Water" as its defining opposite. The Hot and Cold "Fires" are still of the nature of fire.

I have never produced a cold electric fluid only the magnetic has a coldness. Is this cold electric fluid still expansive? The magnetic has cold and a pulling into it when the body is filled with it you can feel itís tendancy to draw inwards to it even when you have filled up with it. The electric is hot but not fiery and like I say expansive. Either deductively or inductively I have never encountered a coldness with electric fluid. Agrippaís element descriptions are the nearest I have read with air being perhaps cold and expansive. But the elements are derived from the fluids as far as I understand.

How do you load and accumulate cold electric fluid? My guess would be to draw it out of air element but is it then the primal fluid like when you draw the electric out of the fire element and the magnetic out of the water element. Please point me towards practical and theoretical material relating to this cold electric fluid idea. I have to admit it runs contrary to my theoretical understanding and practical experience of electric and magnetic fluid loading but Iím always open to new paradigms as long as they can be tested.

black
11-17-2017, 05:31 AM
These are the recent pictures of my Hg washing, conducted about twenty years ago.


Hello Cyrano

Good to see a long time member starting to make comment.

It is so heart warming to read that there are some that have a devout
desire and an intense tenacity to pursue the Great Work.

It would appear that you have been studying for 20 years ....or longer ?

Sounds like you have moved on from the Acetic Acid Process to
the Philosophic Vinegar Process .....from what I've read this process
has more virtue and can be much more rewarding.

--------------------------------------------------

Kiorionis
11-17-2017, 02:53 PM
I have never produced a cold electric fluid only the magnetic has a coldness. Is this cold electric fluid still expansive? The magnetic has cold and a pulling into it when the body is filled with it you can feel itís tendancy to draw inwards to it even when you have filled up with it. The electric is hot but not fiery and like I say expansive. Either deductively or inductively I have never encountered a coldness with electric fluid. Agrippaís element descriptions are the nearest I have read with air being perhaps cold and expansive. But the elements are derived from the fluids as far as I understand.

Hmm, maybe hot and cold aren't the right terms. It's more static and dynamic, or active and passive. The elemental pairs would be more like Fire-Earth and Water-Air.

But the elements arent quite what I'm talking about.


How do you load and accumulate cold electric fluid?

It's more about how to invert the electric fluid into its "cold" state.


Please point me towards practical and theoretical material relating to this cold electric fluid idea. I have to admit it runs contrary to my theoretical understanding and practical experience of electric and magnetic fluid loading but Iím always open to new paradigms as long as they can be tested.

The theory is included in the concept of a Paradox. Or that every substance has its exterior virtues, and it's interior virtues.

It's difficult to explain..

The practice would be to accumulate the electric fluid, and instead of using it in a volt along with the magnetic fluid, try to find the center of the "fluid"

Axismundi000
11-17-2017, 05:44 PM
I see like the yin/yang symbol where the opposite force is in each one, a small black circle in the white part and a small white circle in the black part. Thanks I shall do some meditation on this.

Kiorionis
11-17-2017, 06:41 PM
Yes, quite correct, though the whole of the yin-yang symbol represents just the electric fluid.

Same goes for the magnetic fluid with its internal and external virtues.

Cyrano
11-17-2017, 09:03 PM
I see like the yin/yang symbol where the opposite force is in each one, a small black circle in the white part and a small white circle in the black part. Thanks I shall do some meditation on this.

Its the same with the Alchemical Sun and Moon.
'Our Sun' its cold inside, and hot outside.'Our Moon' its cold outside, but hot inside.Literally.

Kiorionis
11-18-2017, 02:39 AM
Its the same with the Alchemical Sun and Moon.
'Our Sun' its cold inside, and hot outside.'Our Moon' its cold outside, but hot inside.Literally.

If any of you study solar physics, this is evident in the fact that the Corona of the Sun is a few million degrees hotter than the surface of the Sun.

elixirmixer
11-18-2017, 06:47 AM
Yes, quite correct, though the whole of the yin-yang symbol represents just the electric fluid.

Same goes for the magnetic fluid with its internal and external virtues.

What symbol, if any, represents the magnetic fluid?

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 07:58 AM
If any of you study solar physics, this is evident in the fact that the Corona of the Sun is a few million degrees hotter than the surface of the Sun.

Sorry,but I was referring to the Matters of the Work.

elixirmixer
11-18-2017, 08:13 AM
So where does one read about this process??

Andro
11-18-2017, 09:04 AM
Sorry, but I was referring to the Matters of the Work.

Interestingly, when/if one goes into the actual sun (out of body, of course - not physically :)), it is also cold inside, very cold actually. Anyone who can travel OOB, can verify this.

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 09:08 AM
So where does one read about this process??

You have to study Paracelsus to find the meaning of the words all true Philosophers.You will notice that certain matters are universal for all the various Paths.

Axismundi000
11-18-2017, 09:09 AM
Interestingly, when/if one goes into the actual sun (out of body, of course - not physically :)), it is also cold inside, very cold actually. Anyone who can travel OOB, can verify this.
I had never thought to do this. Thank you for the suggestion.

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 11:23 AM
Andro,
Seems that your OOBE confirm the statement "So Above, so Below"..

Kiorionis
11-18-2017, 03:32 PM
Sorry,but I was referring to the Matters of the Work.

Yes I know, but why should there be an incoherence between natural things and the artful re-working of natural things?

Kiorionis
11-18-2017, 03:33 PM
What symbol, if any, represents the magnetic fluid?

The Anchor is one of them.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_chmXdlMhjvw/TBH0VLh1iTI/AAAAAAAACJ8/At1bwf_jUd4/s1600/anchor.JPG

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 03:59 PM
Yes I know, but why should there be an incoherence between natural things and the artful re-working of natural things?

There is no incoherence;there are only obstructions.You must figure out first whats happen in Nature,and then mimics Her,recreating the -ideal- conditions in our Egg.
The Emerald Tablet its the key that open all the Alchemical Doors.Its a written report of a series of -physical- phenomenons that happens everyday under our noses,but,sadly,few notices it.

elixirmixer
11-18-2017, 08:08 PM
Interestingly, when/if one goes into the actual sun (out of body, of course - not physically :)), it is also cold inside, very cold actually. Anyone who can travel OOB, can verify this.

Ive heard that intelligent life exists on the sun. Is that true Andro?

Schmuldvich
11-18-2017, 08:08 PM
The Emerald Tablet its the key that open all the Alchemical Doors.Its a written report of a series of -physical- phenomenons that happens everyday under our noses,but,sadly,few notices it.

Care to comment on this Emerald Tablet thread: "The Emerald Tablet - What Does It Mean?" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4902-The-Emerald-Tablet-What-Does-It-Mean)?

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 09:47 PM
Care to comment on this Emerald Tablet thread: "The Emerald Tablet - What Does It Mean?" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4902-The-Emerald-Tablet-What-Does-It-Mean)?

I think that you ask too many questions,instead of studying by yourself.If I said that the Tabula describes a series of physical phenomena,you have to find some good books about atmospheric and geochemistry,to have at least an idea of whats happening.Or its too much work for you?

Schmuldvich
11-18-2017, 09:54 PM
I think that you ask too many questions

What's the point of being on a message board if not to participate in discussion?

Why are you here...?



"There is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers"

Cyrano
11-18-2017, 10:28 PM
I posted a quote from the book of Volpierre,were some important keys are revealed,but seems to me that has passed unnoticed. Now I want to add something that I hope will animate the discussion.Do you know that,in ancient times,the composition of the dew was quite different from the actual?.The dew was composed mainly from Sodium Chloride and Ammonium Carbonate.Have you an idea,how these cards,changes the Game?

Dragon's Tail
11-18-2017, 11:05 PM
And indeed, gaseous ammonia is still present in air, and can dissolve in both dew and rainwater. This article seems appropriate here, forgive me if it isn't:
https://phys.org/news/2014-08-air-ammoniaone-world-important-chemicals.html

elixirmixer
11-19-2017, 08:48 AM
Oh my goodness, trying to keep track of you guys is like a yin/yang with an infinite vortex spiraling on in the middle.

So which fire are we on about? Not elemental fire (or vulgur). Your actually discussing "SOL"... is that correct?

You can't be talking about SM, your talking about its Father??

And yet... SM is the animating force....

Sooooo confused.......

@ Kiorionis; if hot + cold is one side of thr quadripolar, what is the Air-Earth process?

Kibric
11-19-2017, 09:23 AM
I have completed the First Operation of the Sun,in the Wet and Dry way, but I prefer the Wet because its more simple to me.
the wet way is long and complex
announcing you have completed " First operation of the sun " is what Puffers do


Can you explain what you mean by the "First Operation Of The Sun"


Sorry,no free cake here.
How arrogant

why mention it at all ?
only to boost your ego ?

elixirmixer
11-19-2017, 09:37 AM
You can have free cake at my birthday party Kibric :o

Im not sure exactly what the fire "IS" per say. But i do know; that if you fill a jar 1/4 full of ants and shut the lid; this fire will VERY quickly condense on the sides. Animating fire for sure.

Kibric
11-19-2017, 09:47 AM
You can have free cake at my birthday party Kibric
Ah Mr.Mixer you make alchemy forums fun, for me at least..::)

elixirmixer
11-19-2017, 11:33 AM
Yeah, if only the world was filled with alchemist, hermetics, and BoS students, I'd might of been popular! ;)

Aham
11-19-2017, 02:34 PM
Do you know that,in ancient times,the composition of the dew was quite different from the actual?.The dew was composed mainly from Sodium Chloride and Ammonium Carbonate.Have you an idea,how these cards,changes the Game?

Hi Cyrano, that's an interesting piece of information and I wasn't aware. Are there any references you can point me to? TIA.

Kiorionis
11-19-2017, 02:56 PM
@ Kiorionis; if hot + cold is one side of thr quadripolar, what is the Air-Earth process?

Well, first off, I think the two sides of the elemental quadripolarity is Fire-Earth, and then Water-Air. But all the same. Hot and Cold were just words I was using to describe qualities. The other half, if using these terms, is also Hot + Cold...

Fire is Hot, Earth is Cold
Air is Hot, Water is Cold.

Cyrano
11-19-2017, 03:12 PM
You can't be talking about SM, your talking about its Father??
And yet... SM is the animating force....

The S.M.,in the sence of Malkut,take its force from the Ketheric world.Its has a tiny bit of the original power,but remember that gutta cavat lapidem....

Cyrano
11-19-2017, 04:30 PM
Hi Cyrano, that's an interesting piece of information and I wasn't aware. Are there any references you can point me to? TIA.

Too much years have passed to remember;but its something well recognized by the official scientific community.I'm sure that if you do a search on GoogleBooks,you will find it,because my library has most of the books of the collection.Just type "Atmospheric Chemistry".

But the most important thing to do its to find the rigth use of these two salts in Alchemy.Do you remember that NaCl fixes,and (NH4)2CO3 volatilizes?

Andro
11-20-2017, 09:01 AM
Can you explain what you mean by the "First Operation Of The Sun"?

************


I have completed The First Operation of the Sun and have transmuted lead into gold, through my own improvised method I have created a stone capable of a 1:100 potency in under two weeks.

Cyrano
11-20-2017, 09:46 PM
************

If you want some answers,please PM me.Thanks.

Dragon's Tail
11-20-2017, 11:40 PM
If you want some answers,please PM me.Thanks.

I think you've provided plenty of food for thought already Cyrano, thanks for the nice tips. I wonder if you've tried any processes that involve pulling nitrates directly from the air, perhaps by "simple" and "unexpected" means, as it applies to expectations from simple experiments? Yes or No will be fine, no need to elaborate ;)

elixirmixer
11-21-2017, 12:17 AM
May I ask... what is the SECOND operation of the Sun?

Cyrano
11-21-2017, 12:38 AM
I think you've provided plenty of food for thought already Cyrano, thanks for the nice tips. I wonder if you've tried any processes that involve pulling nitrates directly from the air, perhaps by "simple" and "unexpected" means, as it applies to expectations from simple experiments? Yes or No will be fine, no need to elaborate ;)

Yeah.Ignis et Azoth tibi sufficiunt.

Kiorionis
11-21-2017, 12:39 AM
In some translations, it's just "the operation of the Sun"

Which implies there's an "operation of the Moon".

I suppose the 'second' operation of the Sun has something to do with that.

Cyrano
11-21-2017, 12:44 AM
May I ask... what is the SECOND operation of the Sun?

The second operation consist in turning Xerion in the Pharmacum Catholicum...

Cyrano
11-24-2017, 11:52 PM
I dont know if it was discussed in some other thread,but its necessary a further step above and beyond the Tabula Smaragdina. In fact, Hermes ends his writing at the achievement of Mercurius Philosophorum. That’s to say at the end of the first preparatory work,but doesn’t mention the following steps and works with colors transmutation.

Luxus
11-26-2017, 11:18 AM
Alchemists acknowledge more then one type of fire so the question what is fire cannot be answered with one answer.

To me there are three types of fire used in Alchemy.

1, The fire of the Athanor used to cook the subject.
2, The mineral or corrosive fire used to dissolve the subject.
3, The sulphuric or inner fire (the central Sun) which slumbers within the subject but is awakened by the application of the outer fire.

JDP
11-26-2017, 01:56 PM
Alchemists acknowledge more then one type of fire so the question what is fire cannot be answered with one answer.

To me there are three types of fire used in Alchemy.

1, The fire of the Athanor used to cook the subject.
2, The mineral or corrosive fire used to dissolve the subject.
3, The sulphuric or inner fire (the central Sun) which slumbers within the subject but is awakened by the application of the outer fire.

According to the alchemists of the "Llulian" school, there was yet another kind of "fire": the "fire against nature" (i.e. the common corrosives, like aqua fortis, spirit of salt, oil of vitriol, etc..) These "fires" (i.e. acids) were often used for reducing some metals into fine calxes, so that they would have more surface area exposed (or "opened", as they said back in those times) to the action of the secret solvent (for pretty clear explanations regarding these techniques developed in the late Middle Ages, interested readers should consult works like the "Scala Philosophorum" of Guido de Montanor and "The Pisces of the Lower Zodiac, or the Philosophical Solution" of Lucas Rodargirus.)

Luxus
11-26-2017, 04:31 PM
According to the alchemists of the "Llulian" school, there was yet another kind of "fire": the "fire against nature" (i.e. the common corrosives, like aqua fortis, spirit of salt, oil of vitriol, etc..) These "fires" (i.e. acids) were often used for reducing some metals into fine calxes, so that they would have more surface area exposed (or "opened", as they said back in those times) to the action of the secret solvent (for pretty clear explanations regarding these techniques developed in the late Middle Ages, interested readers should consult works like the "Scala Philosophorum" of Guido de Montanor and "The Pisces of the Lower Zodiac, or the Philosophical Solution" of Lucas Rodargirus.)

That is what I meant in the 2nd fire I listed i.e. the mineral/corrosive fire...the fire of the AZOTH

There where other "fires" known to alchemists but not employed in the grate work for example subterranean and celestial fire which many thought was active in the formation of metals in the Earth.

JDP
11-26-2017, 04:54 PM
That is what I meant in the 2nd fire I listed i.e. the mineral/corrosive fire...the fire of the AZOTH

When you said that, I thought you were referring to the secret solvent, not to common corrosives like aqua fortis, oil of vitriol, etc. Dissolving metals/minerals with such corrosives is very useful and needed in many "chymical" processes, but they will not generate the Stone. The most you can get with such methods are some "direct" transmutations. In alchemy (properly; meaning the making of the Stone) common corrosives are only used as "aid" to obtain some byproducts used in the methods of some alchemists (most notably the followers of the alchemical works attributed to Ramon Llull.) But these useful byproducts are not enough by themselves. The secret solvent (which the Lullian alchemists often call by such decknamen as "Lunaria", "Vegetable Mercury", "Spirit of Wine", etc.) is still required.

Luxus
11-26-2017, 07:07 PM
When you said that, I thought you were referring to the secret solvent, not to common corrosives like aqua fortis, oil of vitriol, etc. Dissolving metals/minerals with such corrosives is very useful and needed in many "chymical" processes, but they will not generate the Stone. The most you can get with such methods are some "direct" transmutations. In alchemy (properly; meaning the making of the Stone) common corrosives are only used as "aid" to obtain some byproducts used in the methods of some alchemists (most notably the followers of the alchemical works attributed to Ramon Llull.) But these useful byproducts are not enough by themselves. The secret solvent (which the Lullian alchemists often call by such decknamen as "Lunaria", "Vegetable Mercury", "Spirit of Wine", etc.) is still required.

Indeed, whenever alchemists say our vinegar, our Antimony, our sharp spirit, our lye you have to wonder what is the difference between his this and that and your this and that.

Cyrano
11-29-2017, 01:04 AM
Indeed, whenever alchemists say our vinegar, our Antimony, our sharp spirit, our lye you have to wonder what is the difference between his this and that and your this and that.

And even when you are able to identify the true subjects, you will have to work them to feed their inner fire, so that they can shine with their own light.