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elixirmixer
12-26-2017, 11:09 PM
Will there ever be a market for the practising Magician?

Could you theoretically "buy" an elemental from a trained Magician?

The wise of you will see where I'm going with this... Obviously elementals have certain effects that by the sounds of it could greatly assist individuals, even individuals who do not practise magic (or who suck at it)

Can we give this a shot? Is anyone willing to procure me.an elemental that will assist me in a personal purification?

I'm basically thinking Kior or Axis could achieve this.

Can someone please run me through what this would look like, or if its even possible?

Its just a thought so no witchhunts please.

Axismundi000
12-26-2017, 11:44 PM
Elixir mixer you probably don’t realise this but your post constitutes what is referred to as spell begging. On occult forums this is generally against forum rules. I do not do ‘spells’ for people and do not charge money (because I don’t do them). If you want someone to achieve a result for you and cannot do it yourself the normal thing is to contact a professional practitioner and pay them the appropriate fee. I’m not sure if Andro offers this particular service, if he doesn’t perhaps he can point you in the direction of someone who can help, or you could look online for a person with a good reputation and track record for this kind of work.

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 12:35 AM
Haha! Spell begging. I love it.

I have thought about hiring Andro for some soul shard retrieval.

So yes I mean this is basically the answer I was looking for, is it, or is it not an accepted practise and judging by what you say, it is not.

Its strange how community like ours doesn't encourage "trading". I always thought it would be a great way to speed up peoples development. I'd in courage it more myself but I promised another member who helped me out that I wouldnt go around "trading" so I don't.

Still, seems a pitty. Suppose I'll have to make my own.

My wife comes back today and I'm going into some seriously needed withdrawal from society. Just me and Franz Bardon. By then I should be able to create my own elementals (I know I've done it before, bit without realising what I was doing).

Yeah it was just a thought, for all I knew you might have just said "sure mate, sending one through now" lol.

Its never that easy is it haha.

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 01:32 AM
For sale: 1 used Love Elemental. Lure in the girl of your dreams! Con any beautiful Sheela to get knocked up on the first go. Lock her down and into your clutches. No refunds. Conditions apply.

Aham
12-27-2017, 03:36 AM
Axis, are there any forums you would recommend? Maybe EM and others can do their own due diligence and find a professional to work with.

Warmheart
12-27-2017, 03:55 AM
From what I know, authentic Elemental is a living creature, so even if to assume that Bardon's techniques of working with Elementals are correct, do you think it would be ethically good to buy/sell living beings as if they were some commodity?

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 06:07 AM
Well what's the difference in selling say, a celery, and selling the elemental associated with the celery?

What's the difference in buying a few acres on top of a hill, and buying the elemental who runs the fields

What's the difference in making a financial investment in a zoo, and summoning a bunch of financial elementals??

HMMMM!?!?!?! :cool:

Andro
12-27-2017, 08:37 AM
I’m not sure if Andro offers this particular service

He doesn't.


perhaps he can point you in the direction of someone who can help

He won't.

He doesn't do "spells" and he doesn't practice ceremonial magic. For shamanic work, it not necessary. You just "phase out", go where you need to go and do what you need to do. After years of training and practice, you can do it on the train or while sitting on the toilet :)

"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

Seth-Ra
12-27-2017, 08:55 AM
"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

^This.

You are literally talking about slavery, at a higher level, as if 1: it were ethically sound, and 2: as if you, or anyone else, would be able to contain such living beings for such barbarism.

Buying food, is to take in life to sustain life.
Buying real estate is for caretaking that land, and making use of it. (Preferably to take care of it, help it grow, both in money value as well as actual life-essence value. To nurture and grow it, just as you do with yourself with the food.)

To do anything short of that, is to squander, and twist, and reap the death you're sowing. Spirit, and all its little aspects (from elementals, to archons, angels and even demons) will not abide such foolish arrogance, and there will be no help/salvation from the impending wrath that will befall the soul who is stupid enough to think themselves capable of confining, enslaving, and prostituting powers that are above (or below) them.

All things have their equivalence.

Axismundi000
12-27-2017, 08:56 AM
Axis, are there any forums you would recommend? Maybe EM and others can do their own due diligence and find a professional to work with.
Wizards Forum has I think a whole section on people offering magical services also on Facebook anything grimoire related could get a person in contact with professionals but usually they are making magical equipment not sure if they also do commissioned magical work.

Axismundi000
12-27-2017, 09:21 AM
He doesn't.



He won't.

He doesn't do "spells" and he doesn't practice ceremonial magic. For shamanic work, it not necessary. You just "phase out", go where you need to go and do what you need to do. After years of training and practice, you can do it on the train or while sitting on the toilet :)

"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

I think there is a fundamental difference of worldview with several interesting points. Firstly about what an ‘elemental’ actually is: A; an artificial elemental which is an autonomous extension of the magician so if the magician sent this to assist another it has been created and developed from the magicians energy. B; An actual elemental that can be evoked (conjured) and commanded by the magician to serve him or another. This whole view by several posters here that commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East, even in pre-Christian times. Whilst people are entitled to their view the fact that this historical position has not even be briefly touched on shows a lack of knowledge of European occult heritage (whether the traditional view is agreed with or not). The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel. Having evoked to visible and/or physical manifestation all these and ‘enslaved’ goetic demons to serve my purposes, (in fact I think I have a couple left that still have tasks they would need to fulfill to be released from obligation to me the seals for this are in a steel box somewhere I think); I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.

If this group opinion stems from the view that humans are the same as animals and also therefore various spirits it is completely wrong. For example there is experimental and observational evidence that we are different to all other species on this planet so the analogy that we are also the same as various spirits etc is also not valid from that perspective.

Examples: 1. Humans cause make and put out fire no other species does this - observational evidence. Also electricity and magnetism. 2. Young human children in an experiment when they are given a treat for stacking a block on another will become curious about the blocks if they are given one that doesn’t fit. No other primate does this in the same scenario they just try to stack the two blocks failing, don’t seem to investigate why.

We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

Edit: Deities also cannot be ‘bound or enslaved’.

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 09:26 AM
My understanding was that elementals were the astral correspondence for life forms in the 3D realm. So if I want the highest medicinal virtue from a sage plant, than I should clairvoyantly request assistance from the plants elemental spirit, otherwise its considered attacking the plant and it don't give all the goodness it could have.

So then doesn't it depend on the intelligence of the creature? Sure I wouldn't put an orca in a little tank and make it do circus tricks, but I would breed up locusts and mushrooms and eat those little bastards. Or even just plants. Where is the point in which we say, 'this is now cruel'

I apologize if I've upset anyone, I don't really have much of a knowledge reservoir in this area.

However, can't I create an elemental? And isn't it with the intention that it work for me? I understand the issues with trading in regards to what Andro means by 'backfire' because of the unpredictable outcomes and the risk of inexperienced people doing dodgy stuff and telling you its good.

So if controlling elementals is considered wrong, what do we do with them then? Summon them as friendly pets who want to spend time with us? Like a Pokemon? If its like a Pokemon, I'm all for it.

@Andro, the thing that's always confused me about shamanism (the first religion I ever looked into) was, not so much the 'going' bit the 'doing'. What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?

Thank you everyone for sharing your views

Andro
12-27-2017, 09:41 AM
commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East. I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.

Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.


We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

How convenient :)


The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel.

Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved :)

Andro
12-27-2017, 09:43 AM
What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?

You'll see when you get there.

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 10:10 AM
I just read your post Axis, yes, the entire idea of ceremonial magic is to summon and control these 'lower' Spirits. Hence why I am also a little confused. I'm not a massive fan of this type of magic anyway, more because of the danger it poses to the magician if he/she behaves ignorantly, however I never considered it from the point of 'rights for elementals'

Perhaps the difference in definition is in the Elemetaries. Which I believe are slightly different, more sentient, more 'alive', harder and more dangerous to control certainly, I'd be scared to attempt work with them as I know I'd fuck it up and it would go bad...

Again I see it as, making a magpie fly where you want so you can see where your vorging, compared to you going down to Woolworths and actually EATING a dead chicken. I'd say the crime is in the killing, not in the gentle borrowing.

Also a reminder, that the reason that ceremonial magic works, is because we are literally given permission from God to have this ability of controlling elementals demons, and if your a fully realized avatar such as Christ than "I could command twelve legions of Angels and they would be delivered" or however it goes.

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you"

"We do what we see the Father doeth"

EDIT: I believe there is a bit in the bible that says something like "When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks

Andro
12-27-2017, 10:19 AM
When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks.

There's a difference between deliberate enslavement of another entity and power politics/power economics. If one is perceived as "top dog", other beings may see it in their best interest to defer to such a being :)

elixirmixer
12-27-2017, 10:44 AM
Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?

I have a lot to learn about this stuff. I'm still pretty oblivious. I'll have to give it a go soon

Andro
12-27-2017, 11:13 AM
Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?

No "entity commanding" as such. But some sort of "battle" is sometimes necessary, such as in cases of a nasty astral parasite who won't leave easily. It isn't necessarily a direct fight, except for rare occasions. Often, you have to "trick" the parasite or the foreign entity into leaving. Sometimes it is forceful removal, (NOT "command" or" enslavement") and other times it's just offering the invader a "better deal" (quasi-negotiation) and then subsequently disposing of it. Yes, it is a type of battle strategy, it often isn't "pretty", but (for me) it NEVER involves subjugating/enslaving another entity for my own benefit. You do what it takes to get the job done, and then you let go and move on. The traps & temptations of power are common, and should be avoided.

Real Power does NOT come from beings or entities. Those who believe this (IMO) still have a way to go. Real Power is an entirely different thing and it IS the difficult to access. That's why I believe that most magicians rely on power that is "taken" via subjugation/enslavement/etc - because of the lack of ability to access the real source of Power. IMO.

Axismundi000
12-27-2017, 12:10 PM
Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.



How convenient :)



Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved :)

I expected character assassination but not so clumsy. It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post. To imply I am effectively advocating human slavery because I bind and control (sometimes effectively enslave) Demons is the essence of calumniation. As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

Warmheart
12-27-2017, 01:23 PM
Don't do to others what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself. It is a golden law which should be followed, and you will be fine in occult world.

It is not out of realm of impossibility to be enslaved just like those Elementals in "afterlife". It might be as a consequence of the game, in which those beings decided to play with you, because honestly, 100 years is extremely small amount of time, Elementals can wait and serve you (or to whom you sell them), and then get you enslaved for millenias as an act of repercussion.

You also get despise from Higher Beings for doing things like that. I don't think that 100-200 USD you get for such acts in extremely short life of human (100 years is far beyond infinitely less than completely nothing) is worth being thrown into the Lower Worlds for, possibly, millions of years, which is another possible outcome for acting as totally unworthy of better Worlds.

Frauds and quacks do a good work by spreading charlatanic practices, so that unaware people wouldn't harm others and themselves with their wishes. Truly, it is better being deluded, than realize that you just traded millions of years of existing in totally unfriendly, hideous environments with frightening ways of living in there for some pathetic 100-200 USD. I don't think that even million of dollars is good enough price for that.

Thankfully, practices which can be found in most of (but not all, there are very rare exceptions) modern books are fruitless. Including Bardon's books.

I am not saying that selling Elementals is bad - "good" and "bad" aren't exactly absolute terms. After all, Hell-like Worlds also need to be filled. Just need to be aware of nasty repercussions in case of getting success with such goals on this Earth.

Andro
12-27-2017, 02:12 PM
I expected character assassination but not so clumsy. It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post. To imply I am effectively advocating human slavery because I bind and control (sometimes effectively enslave) Demons is the essence of calumniation. As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

I posted my personal view on the topic (not on YOU!), not remotely a "character assassination". But if you think it's all about you, then there you go...

Everyone added their unique perspectives to the topic. That's what discussion forums are about. If you can't take the "heat", get out of the kitchen.

A slave driver is a slave driver is a slave driver. The Archetype remains. There's always a "bigger" picture than we are able to see. The microcosm of the various earth-bound planes is but a drop in the ocean. If you "enslave" another being, even if non-human, there are consequences in the larger scheme of things.

I personally wouldn't enslave any being, human and non-human alike (unless they specifically ask for it LOL :))


As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

Neither are you expected to. I merely posted my personal views for those interested in dabbling in those areas.

Besides, I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about ethics and adhering to a certain universal law (Balance).

Morality and ethics are not quite the same.


It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post.

For certain extreme factions within some religions or ideologies, only their adherents are considered "legit humans". Everyone else is fair game to them.

This lame excuse has been used far too often with devastating results.

Groups that have been considered non-human/sub-human and thus "fair game":

Slaves and then blacks.

Women

Goyim/gentiles (non-jews)

Gays

Non-arians

Non-muslims

Indigenous populations

The lists goes on.

So I could just conveniently make a post where I declare that such and such beings are "not human", and then go on to enslave whomever I damn well please according to my particular belief system.

Maybe you can't see it (or deny it if you do), but this is the same logic that has been used to justify slavery and many other forms of enslavement or persecution: "They're not human".

Axismundi000
12-27-2017, 02:32 PM
I posted my personal view on the topic (not on YOU!), not remotely a "character assassination". But if you think it's all about you, then there you go...

Everyone added their unique perspectives to the topic. That's what discussion forums are about. If you can't take the "heat", get out of the kitchen.

A slave driver is a slave driver is a slave driver. The Archetype remains. There's always a "bigger" picture than we are able to see. The microcosm of the various earth-bound planes is but a drop in the ocean. If you "enslave" another being, even if non-human, there are consequences in the larger scheme of things.

I personally wouldn't enslave any being, human and non-human alike (unless they specifically ask for it LOL :))



Neither are you expected to. I merely posted my personal views for those interested in dabbling in those areas.

Besides, I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about ethics and adhering to a certain universal law (Balance).

Morality and ethics are not quite the same.



For certain extreme factions within some religions or ideologies, only their adherents are considered "legit humans". Everyone else is fair game to them.

This lame excuse has been used far too often with devastating results.

Groups that have been considered non-human/sub-human and thus "fair game":

Slaves and then blacks.

Women

Goyim/gentiles (non-jews)

Gays

Non-arians

Non-muslims

The lists goes on.

This is the standard cultural Marxist, critical Theory strategy and frankly I am done here or as you put it I cannot take the heat so I am leaving the kitchen. I have far better things to do with my time than bandy words with someone who infers such wickedness. All of like mind can enjoy this echo chamber together.

Interestingly I cleared all my messages last night before this thread was started but didn’t know why. I will place an unsubscribe request but it doesn’t matter if it is effected because I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

Andro
12-27-2017, 02:39 PM
someone who infers such wickedness.

Wickedness = disagrees with you.


I will place an unsubscribe request

I'm quite sure the universe will survive for now. But you never know :)


I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

This is neither PC nor is it Alchemy. It is just a discussion involving the ethics of practicing magic. A thicker skin may come in handy :)

Best!

elixirmixer
12-28-2017, 07:19 AM
I may not have quite the distinction as some; however, even from my lowly perch, I feel sadness, and a discomfort, that such a diverse, intelligent, aware beings, cannot harmoniously contribute to a global healing.

This place is the micro macro cossum of my knowledge superiority complex. What shall we do?

Andro
12-28-2017, 07:25 AM
such a diverse, intelligent, aware beings, cannot harmoniously contribute to a global healing.

Are you referring to incorporeal non-human entities? (i.e. the topic of this thread)

elixirmixer
12-28-2017, 07:40 AM
Are you referring to incorporeal non-human entities? (i.e. the topic of this thread)

I was referring to those who have power and authority to mold and carve the world, in which much more defenceless beings strive to survive, and that we, us here at alchemyforums, could, if we united indefinity, assist in these hard times, even the last times we have to make a change. Directly relevant I believe to the concept of as to whether we as a community could trade thought forms. Respectfully

elixirmixer
12-28-2017, 09:04 AM
I love you all by the way. If it were up to me, I'd just drop the bomb and get on with it, however, despite tur difference in opinions occasionally, I do respect those who have invested even more time than myself, for as you can see, I am like a child, and yet that fetus took many years to birth. What shall we do?

Edit: last off topic comment

Awani
12-28-2017, 04:29 PM
We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

Jesus said something along the lines of: "...those that live by the sword, die by the sword."

So the more a human being enslaves ironically the more enslaved he becomes. Funny I think.

Animals are different than humans. Dogs are different than cats. Titanic is different than Star Wars. Yet both are films. He he. Which is better? Well... that answer is relative.


I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

LOL. PC? Only an ignorant cunt would call Alchemy Forums PC, and you seem to be far too intelligent for that... so I suspect this was uttered in the heat of the moment...*

:p

* cunt = certainly not a word PC-people would use, and even more non-PC when uttered by an individual (that would be me) that is supposed to calmly moderate

elixirmixer
12-28-2017, 10:42 PM
Well political correctness might not be the most accurate term to use but how about... Cultural Dogma's?

Like for instance. I can't buy medicines from you guys. Which is weird, because this is an alchemical community! Also, there is the, 'don't spoon feed the noobs' which is a two sided debate however the quickening of human development is IMO underrated in that argument. (In some cases)

If I dropped the SM bomb I'd be excommunicated. Not saying I even want to but its another example of a perceived cultural norm.

I think the entire argument concerning elementals went too fast I to our opi ions without us coming to a concencis on what an elemental actually is (because I'm sure there are different definitions at play here)

I don't think you should leave Axis just because there are some who put the hard word against some of your practices. If we all did that then none of us would be here I reacon.

Spell begging, another cultural norm. In my head I'm thinking 'why are these cunts so reluctant to help others' and I mean other than giving 'good advice'.

There is danger in ceremonial magic. There is danger of heavy karma if negative outcomes are produced.

To rely and spend too much time focused on a certain elemental can cause imbalances within the magician himself and in the worst case scenario, can bind the magicians soul to the designated 'sphere' of the entities we choose to hang around.

These points should be taken very seriously, especially by you Axis, since it is you which is in the greatest risk, since it is you who are practising.

I'm more concerned about your sexual expression in the astral world more than your work with elementals. If you are connecting with entities in other worlds, I would strongly recommend you re-co sided those practises, since after all you have a partner here in Malkuth (assuming you do indulge, you may not, I'm assuming based on something you said a long time ago.

Now.. Continuing our discussion, for those of you who feel that conjuring is slavery, are there OTHER methods to work with elementals that you would consider ethical?

Andro
12-28-2017, 10:56 PM
methods to work with elementals that you would consider ethical?

Making alliances, if so inclined.

Cyrano
12-29-2017, 01:09 AM
Excuse me, if I interfere, but here, are you talking about evoking the spirits as in Clavis Solomonis?.Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but these entities, are just crystallizations of energies generated by people's faith or real entities? .I am of the same opinion as the bestseller novel 'American Gods', where the deities exists only because people believe in their existence, and cease to exist if people no longer believe in them. A sort of artificial elementals, in short....

Seth-Ra
12-29-2017, 03:49 AM
I think people misunderstand what things are...

An artificial construct, such as is being described, created by the magician, or by the faith of a group, is not an elemental, but rather, it is an egregore. A true spirit is sentient and alive, whereas an egregore is more akin to a robot or program; the difference between talking to an AI, or each other via these devices. One is created by the magician (or groups), to serve a function, to have a purpose. The other is sentient, living etc.

You can follow the principles and align the powers and forces to create a construct, as simply or elaborate as you want. But it's not a true spirit, more or less a spiritual machine or program.
The other comes directly from the Source and they are the Principles and Forces, living and farther reaching than a construct.
You can work with them, give them reason to act by following their Principles (much as we use any force or energy; inciting it to work for us), and they can, when we get careless or take them for granted, use said same forces to shatter our works and humble us, because they have their own sentientce. The constructs/egregores simply do as programmed.

Now, if you want to imbue an egregore with sentience... that's it's own can of worms.
You'll end up with a thing much like this robot in this clip:

https://youtu.be/3ht-ZyJOV2k

Don't play God if you're no good at it.

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 04:07 AM
Yes, different terminology. I would call an elemental, a construct, I would call an elementary, a living being. They are different. Both can be created. You would want to have a good background in this stuff to consider creating an elementary, for the exact reason you just said, you don't want to play God if you don't know how He likes to play.

An elemental can have one or more elements.

An elementary has all elements, and the Akasha principal. It is alive. Your thoughts just 'want' to be alive.

Elementals are created every time you think of something passionately, even if your unaware.

Living beings are quite different, and this is why I brought up the point and discussing the definitions people are using. Right now Axis thinks your fuckin loopy because your basically telling him that using his iPhone is slavery, however what you mean is Elementaries, living beings of the elements. Very different from an elemental, which is a strong thought form.

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 04:10 AM
Yay, I'm contributing to a Magical conversation. That is a sign of movement in the right direction. I'm happy

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 04:16 AM
Making alliances, if so inclined.

Yes and this is what I thought someone would say. No need to control if you can make friends, however, again, very shifty ground IMHO due to the 'deal making' that can go on, which I personally strongly forbid (in advance from when I will have that choice). If you can interact without making deals, your in the clear in my opinion. (My tiny insignificant opinion since I'm a total magic noon)

Jesus says: Don't be a knob and make deals with people, you will pay every dollar, free yourself from debt... In more or less words. (I really need to recap my scripture quotes)

No no no. No deals. If you can becomes friends, wonderful, however, I'd prefer to be standing in the Circle of the Image of God, dictating to these energies, rather than be tricked and deceived, and end up the slave of that entity (even unknowingly)

All very interesting and important considerations I think.

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 04:24 AM
To recap my views. Commanding energies and elementals is all in a days work for the practical magician, however that is very different from summoning a living being and forcing it to do your will, however, I believe that karma holds the opinion that the ends justify the means. If you commanded, and did good for others, your sweet. If you commanded and did wrong by earth, creatures, and humanity, you are royally screwed until you pay for said karma. (IMO) ((which I'm basically gathering straight out the mouth of Franz Bardon))

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 04:29 AM
So finally, we come to what I believe is the point. When Axis and I spoke of 'buying spells' we are talking about magician made thought forms, not fairies and unicorns in cages on the black market.

So I think some may want to apologize to Axis, since many claimed his ways to be unethical, before really understanding what it is he's trying to convey.

Am I right Axis? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Note: I'm done flooding now :)

Aham
12-29-2017, 05:02 AM
Fully agree that definitions have to be clear because a sentient being could be a plant, an animal, a rock, whatever... just depends on one's perspective.

So if I drink milk bought from a farmer and said farmer, without the consent of the cow, has ''enslaved' the cow to produce milk, am I a "cunt" for supporting the farmer by buying the milk? Am I now part of the machinery that supports this type of enslavement?

What about vegetables? What if I grow vegetables with the express intent of eating them when they are ready to be harvested? Is that a kind of enslavement as well? How do we know that vegetables don't object to being harvested? Maybe they had other plans besides becoming my dinner...

In the limit, if I'm a math/computer nerd and I think of a new fractal program and make the program do trillions of calculations or a bitcoin miner and use my array of computers to mine ad infinitum, does that constitute computer/program enslavement?

I only bring this up because I don't have any answers or even half-baked ideas on where to go with this line of questioning... Maybe we all do the best we can with what we rationalize to ourselves until we dig deeper and end up with more questions than answers... or the 'lucky' ones end up with resolution and move on. :)

Seth-Ra
12-29-2017, 05:40 AM
Food, in any/all its forms should be respected and appreciated. The sacrifice is honored by what is done with it. Squander it, and no doubt there will be a reckoning.
Hunter and hunted is different from slave and slave master.

Those who form constructs do so because either A: they enjoy it/want to, or B: are made to.
Using your iPhone is not slavery; it's a construct.
Now, the forceful removal of people and nature from the environments where the minerals to build said constructs come from, and the forceful enforcement of a system that makes people work in the factories to build such, or starve/go without, is a form of slavery - and we all feel its sting to varying degrees, some more than others. At this point, the egregores of industry are to the point that we simply treat their maintanence needs as food and make use of the sacrificing going on. Doesn't mean there aren't repercussions occurring all the same though. ("Slaves" rebelling and filling the streets with death (theirs and their opressors), air, land, and water being poisoned, etc)

Even in the more vulgar senses of the world, we see people blurring the lines and causing the ripples of their own destructions; yet still find the need to ask why it wouldn't be different in deeper realms.
That is sadly comical to me.

elixirmixer
12-29-2017, 06:38 AM
Fully agree that definitions have to be clear because a sentient being could be a plant, an animal, a rock, whatever... just depends on one's perspective.

So if I drink milk bought from a farmer and said farmer, without the consent of the cow, has ''enslaved' the cow to produce milk, am I a "cunt" for supporting the farmer by buying the milk? Am I now part of the machinery that supports this type of enslavement?

What about vegetables? What if I grow vegetables with the express intent of eating them when they are ready to be harvested? Is that a kind of enslavement as well? How do we know that vegetables don't object to being harvested? Maybe they had other plans besides becoming my dinner...

In the limit, if I'm a math/computer nerd and I think of a new fractal program and make the program do trillions of calculations or a bitcoin miner and use my array of computers to mine ad infinitum, does that constitute computer/program enslavement?

I only bring this up because I don't have any answers or even half-baked ideas on where to go with this line of questioning... Maybe we all do the best we can with what we rationalize to ourselves until we dig deeper and end up with more questions than answers... or the 'lucky' ones end up with resolution and move on. :)

This mind state is where im at. Let's first understand what we are talking about, and then develope opinions. Let's not jump to conclusion's, we will likely make mistakes, and possibly offend perfectly decent people.

Andro
12-29-2017, 09:25 AM
Axia was quite clear when stating that it's OK for humans to enslave other beings (not just spells!) such as demons and other entities, with the exception of angels and deities, who "cannot be enslaved".

And the reasoning behind it was that 'humans are made in the image of god' - while the others aren't (therefore rendering them 'fair game').

So there is very little ambiguity there.

Cyrano
12-29-2017, 10:25 AM
You seem really convinced of what you say! .But is yours direct knowledge or is it only theory?. Really those monstrosities' described in the ancient grimoires appear in the circles, after you have recited your magic formulas?. They appear physically on the material plane, or only in the astral plane? .Is any of you, so kind as to tell me his direct experience in evocatory magic ??. Thank you.

Andro
12-29-2017, 10:44 AM
You seem really convinced of what you say! .But is yours direct knowledge or is it only theory?. Really those monstrosities' described in the ancient grimoires appear in the circles, after you have recited your magic formulas?. They appear physically on the material plane, or only in the astral plane? .Is any of you, so kind as to tell me his direct experience in evocatory magic ??. Thank you.

Not sure who you're asking, but...

I don't practice ceremonial/evocatory magic. But (without really doing anything) I have witnessed "manifestations" that were "semi-physical".

Another thing that is IMO more a semantic issue than a misconception: There are NO "non-corporeal" beings/entities that can be summoned to appear. Everything has a "body" of sorts, just on different planes and at different resonant frequencies. When one "goes" to the astral plane, one interacts in a manner that is in many ways quite similar to the way we interact on the 'physical' plane. When we "travel OOB" (for lack of a better term), especially when VERY close to the "physical" plane, we are still susceptible to electromagnetic fields (for example). The further we move out of phase, the less susceptible we become to such fields. Entities which are only very slightly out of phase can become visible and sometimes even move objects (like in the "Poltergeist" phenomenon). All this is from direct personal experience.

Cyrano
12-29-2017, 03:17 PM
Not sure who you're asking, but...

I don't practice ceremonial/evocatory magic. But (without really doing anything) I have witnessed "manifestations" that were "semi-physical".

Another thing that is IMO more a semantic issue than a misconception: There are NO "non-corporeal" beings/entities that can be summoned to appear. Everything has a "body" of sorts, just on different planes and at different resonant frequencies. When one "goes" to the astral plane, one interacts in a manner that is in many ways quite similar to the way we interact on the 'physical' plane. When we "travel OOB" (for lack of a better term), especially when VERY close to the "physical" plane, we are still susceptible to electromagnetic fields (for example). The further we move out of phase, the less susceptible we become to such fields. Entities which are only very slightly out of phase can become visible and sometimes even move objects (like in the "Poltergeist" phenomenon). All this is from direct personal experience.


Andro,
Thank you for your contribution.
I totally agree with you,when you say that the astral plane has a materiality, exactly like the physical one, and that the difference between the two lies only in the phasing of the vibration of the matter of which the different planes are composed.I have withnessed so many different types of paranormal phenomena,(even spirits and objects materializations),that now I'm convicted that these things works by exact physical laws;there isnt such things like 'magik' or 'irrational'.
But,things like summoning and subjecting non-human entities,with a sword and magical formulas,sounds like a childish fantasy,to me.So,I'm curious to find the truth behind these Dark Age/Medioeval systems of belif.Without any offence to the practicioners,of course.

Andro
12-29-2017, 03:38 PM
But,things like summoning and subjecting non-human entities,with a sword and magical formulas,sounds like a childish fantasy,to me.
I don't see it as childish fantasy. The so-called "Magical Formulas" are a sort of equivalent of command codes/access codes, not unlike computer programming.

Those codes have to be "input" in certain sequences and also "charged" or "fueled" (with the likes of intention, emotion, ritual, etc...). It's somewhat comparable to a Virtual Reality hacking game.

But this game has certain "laws" that cannot be circumvented, even if someone theoretically has Admin or even Super-Admin (Demiurge-class) access level. So, back to enslavement, those laws apply here as well. One reason the so-called "elites" on earth are able to essentially "enslave" people, is because the loophole of consent (or in this case, "manufactured consent (https://www.google.com/search?q=manufactured+consent)"). The ones who are enslaved basically either believe they are free, or they indirectly give their consent to be "voluntarily" enslaved.

"Magically" enslaving entities without any sort of consent whatsoever, will trigger those laws into re-balancing the equation, sooner or later, one way or another. That's what some traditions may refer to as "Karma", but it's a bit more complex than that (i.e. nothing to do with "good" or "bad" or 'punishment', etc...).

The 4th Season of the TV series Black Mirror was just released on Netflix. The first episode has some similarities to what is being discussed here.

Cyrano
12-29-2017, 06:34 PM
Andro,
I do not question the efficacy of the ancient rituals and magic formulas used, but the true origin of these non-human entities that are evoked.Are you so sure that these aren't a sort of 'tulpas', which respond to certain characteristics, because of the belief of the people who created them,unintentionally??