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View Full Version : Can plants be used to make "the solvent?"



Dragon's Tail
01-09-2018, 04:55 AM
I haven't done any further testing yet, but I did get one blackened mass from a simple reflux setup. I'm sure my next experiments with leafy greens when spring arrives will tell me more about whether this is a dead end or not, but I'm beginning to suspect there is some very active enzyme hiding in plant material that if properly extracted might be actionable on things outside of the plant kingdom. This isn't from reading, it's from doing, and there are a couple obvious texts on the cirulatum that I will need to revisit.

If the solvent was prepared and extracted, but you didn't have the prima materia, what kind of effects do you believe would be indicators? Perhaps suspend a certain metal inside and see if it gets eaten? Do you think the solvent can dissolve gold by itself, or that it would need this capability? Is that the test? Try it against a fiddling amount of gold to see if it will dissolve it?

Where would I look for multiplying it. Is it as simple as adding some more water and refluxing or distilling?

Just passing curiosities. Anyone is welcome to chime in with an opinion, even if it goes against the grain.

JDP
01-09-2018, 05:46 AM
I haven't done any further testing yet, but I did get one blackened mass from a simple reflux setup. I'm sure my next experiments with leafy greens when spring arrives will tell me more about whether this is a dead end or not, but I'm beginning to suspect there is some very active enzyme hiding in plant material that if properly extracted might be actionable on things outside of the plant kingdom. This isn't from reading, it's from doing, and there are a couple obvious texts on the cirulatum that I will need to revisit.

If the solvent was prepared and extracted, but you didn't have the prima materia, what kind of effects do you believe would be indicators? Perhaps suspend a certain metal inside and see if it gets eaten? Do you think the solvent can dissolve gold by itself, or that it would need this capability? Is that the test? Try it against a fiddling amount of gold to see if it will dissolve it?

Where would I look for multiplying it. Is it as simple as adding some more water and refluxing or distilling?

Just passing curiosities. Anyone is welcome to chime in with an opinion, even if it goes against the grain.

If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".

Dragon's Tail
01-09-2018, 05:59 AM
If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".

Hmm, sounds similar to Paracelsus with his wine/alkali mix-mash. The word "character" is interesting in its own right. And yes, I was referring to the secret solvent.

When they insist on the metallic nature, I wonder if they are referring to an actual metal. I've seen plenty of things appear in my flask that have a decidedly metallic (shiny/hard) nature to them. The first skin that I pull off my "water tincture" looks almost like the film from old tapes, for instance. And other little peculiarities. In the universe of Alchemy "metallic nature" could refer to just about anything, or they might be simply referring to Hg. Such a fickle lot we are.

Same with a "vegetable nature" which might not suggest a substance coming from a vegetable at all, since the spirit of wine already comes from the vegetable kingdom.

JDP
01-09-2018, 06:23 AM
Hmm, sounds similar to Paracelsus with his wine/alkali mix-mash. The word "character" is interesting in its own right. And yes, I was referring to the secret solvent.

When they insist on the metallic nature, I wonder if they are referring to an actual metal. I've seen plenty of things appear in my flask that have a decidedly metallic (shiny/hard) nature to them. The first skin that I pull off my "water tincture" looks almost like the film from old tapes, for instance. And other little peculiarities. In the universe of Alchemy "metallic nature" could refer to just about anything, or they might be simply referring to Hg. Such a fickle lot we are.

Same with a "vegetable nature" which might not suggest a substance coming from a vegetable at all, since the spirit of wine already comes from the vegetable kingdom.

That "Mundanus" indeed means something coming from a vegetable source is plainly seen by the fact that he says "another vegetable nature" (i.e. besides the common spirit of wine. Keep in mind that "Mundanus" is here talking about an alternative method in which common spirit of wine can also be used in the operations, but this is not the method that he himself uses, though.) Also, if you read the descriptions he makes of the preparation of the secret solvent from the reactions & interactions between at least 3 substances (which he hides under the names of "mercury", "sulphur" and a "distilled water"), you can't avoid concluding that more than minerals/metals are at play in these operations he describes. Anyone who has a lot of empirical experience with mineral/metallic substances knows that they usually do NOT give liquid products by interactions/reactions between themselves, and when they do they do not display the same things that "Mundanus" describes. So obviously there is more at play here than 100% mineral/metallic substances.

Florius Frammel
01-09-2018, 02:40 PM
Maybe this discussion can be helpful?
Circulatum Minus (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4847-Circulatum-Minus)

Avatar
03-18-2018, 06:03 AM
Fat.
If I am extracting.
Fat is better than alcohole.
Although I believe you wash fat with alcohole in order to extract the substances from fat.
Fats were used for a long time to make aromatic products because the absorbe scents.
So alcohole, fat, and water (which is present in a lower proof alcohole).

Dragon's Tail
03-22-2018, 12:34 PM
Fat.
If I am extracting.
Fat is better than alcohole.
Although I believe you wash fat with alcohole in order to extract the substances from fat.
Fats were used for a long time to make aromatic products because the absorbe scents.
So alcohole, fat, and water (which is present in a lower proof alcohole).

Nice idea. I've done some infusions with different oils before (mineral and olive oil). Never thought about washing them with alcohol. I know various fats can also act as a surfactant in super fluids to form complexes with metals. Interesting indeed. I haven't been doing much lately. My current shelf extract experiment is using a simple syrup to extract some rosemary, which is a slow process, but it's making an extract.

I made the syrup by slowly and carefully dissolving a good amount of sugar in as little water as possible, with a pinch of tartar for good measure to help bust up the sucrose molecules a lil bit. Fats should be easy to break up by the same types of processes (heat and/or catalyst) for "solids" like bacon fat, which will make infusion easier.

Thanks, something for me to kick around philosophically as I go about my day.

alfr
03-22-2018, 05:02 PM
If by "the solvent" you mean the secret solvent of alchemy, then the answer is very difficult to resolve. Some authors keep insisting on the "mineral" and/or "metallic" nature of the secret solvent, while others openly acknowledge that non-metallic/mineral substances are used in its preparation. The "adept" who called himself "Theodorus Mundanus" in his letter to Edmund Dickinson says that the secret solvent can be made even with common spirit of wine, BUT provided that you unite to it a certain other "vegetable nature which bears the character of a trefoyle".
................................................
trefoyle

perhaps because the trefoyle as also says the weidenlfeld in his manuscripts and also see his prodromus and how he also understands the chain of humerus and also the dikinson etc is that the philosophical solvent is composed of 3 intersected elements of plant animal and mineral

as weidenfeld would say the oleosun plant and or animal must be united to acidum and to an aridum and from it union with an artifice and elaboration we obtain a water that it will compose the solvent see about it its prodronus
https://www.scribd.com/document/341659938/From-Weidenfeld-s-Prodromus-Libri-Secundi-1

my best regard alfr

-----------------------------------------------------
trefoyle

forse perche il trefoyle come dice anche il weidenlfeld nei suo manoscritti e anche vedi suo prodromus e come fa capire anche la catena d'omero e anche il dikinson etc č che il solvente filosofale č composto da 3 elementi intersecati vegetale animale e minerale

come direbbe weidenfeld l'oleosun pianta e o animale va unito ad acidum e a un aridum e da essa unione con un artifici ed elaborazione si ottiene un acqua che essa comporrā il solvente see about it il suo prodronus
https://www.scribd.com/document/341659938/From-Weidenfeld-s-Prodromus-Libri-Secundi-1

Avatar
03-22-2018, 11:40 PM
Alchemy honestly feels like a method of extracting substances without much chemical reaction.
If you viewed it with an archaic sight.
It seems like change without chemical reaction.
A fat or alcohole extracting a substance being similar in observation.
Which is similar to if I run my finger on a metal then my hands become metallic smelling. Although this is because of bacteria etc. The observation is that the metal rubbed off on me.
Hell.
Has anyone ever just boiled pure gold an then had themselves a taste of said water?
Observationally we boil say an onion. The water takes on an onion smell. We assume the onion is in the water.
We may understand that fact now.
BUT old science is built from observation.
A water who's smell changes obviously changes in nature. Even though it may not contain the bulk of the substance.
Even as an onion remains even though you have onion water.
Follow the smell.
That's the magic of fat. It absorbes the smells.
Hm..can a fat absorbe a metallic smell from a metal?
OooOoo.
Of course always be careful. Smells are potentially as poisonous as anything else.

Avatar
03-22-2018, 11:42 PM
Of course, everything is a reaction. What I meant was observable obvious reaction. Violent chemical reaction.
Like oxidization and combustion.

elixirmixer
03-23-2018, 12:24 AM
I haven't done any further testing yet, but I did get one blackened mass from a simple reflux setup. I'm sure my next experiments with leafy greens when spring arrives will tell me more about whether this is a dead end or not, but I'm beginning to suspect there is some very active enzyme hiding in plant material that if properly extracted might be actionable on things outside of the plant kingdom. This isn't from reading, it's from doing, and there are a couple obvious texts on the cirulatum that I will need to revisit.

If the solvent was prepared and extracted, but you didn't have the prima materia, what kind of effects do you believe would be indicators? Perhaps suspend a certain metal inside and see if it gets eaten? Do you think the solvent can dissolve gold by itself, or that it would need this capability? Is that the test? Try it against a fiddling amount of gold to see if it will dissolve it?

Where would I look for multiplying it. Is it as simple as adding some more water and refluxing or distilling?

Just passing curiosities. Anyone is welcome to chime in with an opinion, even if it goes against the grain.

IMO, the answer is no. There are trace amounts of SM in all plants, uniting this with potash DOES make a volatile salt, although its quite difficult to get workable amounts from the plant itself. Best to have an external source of Spirit in the first place. The TRUE volatile salts of Tartar (the ones made from SM) does make an incredible solvent. And has strange and invigorating properties of its own, in its own right.

However, this will only work in the vegetable kingdom, it will never transmute shit into ice-cream, however, it will most definitely make the best medicines available in the vegetable kingdom.

The effort involved in...... wholly fuck....... you just made me realise something very very important......

Purifaction.......

Anyway... dont bother trying to get the solvent from plants. Its far from ideal and it cost me about $2000 worth of glassware to be able to properly perform that type of operation, which, operation ive never seen written anywhere, i had to develope the technique myself.

The plant handbook doesnt have anything that your looking for. Sure it describes an incredible plant solvent; however if you follow the protocol in the book it does not grant what its says that it does.

Sorry mate.