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Andro
01-16-2018, 05:38 AM
Here it is... The new 'hot' thread :)


First actual rule of alchemy: No Secret Solvent = No Philosophers' Stone. Period!

Indeed... For once, we are in complete agreement :)

Some authors say something along the lines of "working without it ('our mercury', etc...) is like walking without legs..."

I think this topic (The Secret Solvent) deserves a thread in its own right, so we can discuss what really matters!

Weidenfeld
01-16-2018, 06:15 AM
Indeed... For once, we are in complete agreement :)

Some authors say something along the lines of "working without it ('our mercury', etc...) is like walking without legs..."

I think this topic (The Secret Solvent) deserves a thread in its own right, so we can discuss what really matters!
Very good idea ! In a first attempt for the new thread it would be fine to collect sources that primarily include the subject of the 'secret solvent' in its description. I'm aware of several texts dealing with this.

Schmuldvich
01-16-2018, 07:22 AM
No Secret Solvent = No Philosophers' Stone

Our Universal Solvent (Alkahest, Secret Solvent, Universal Menstruum, Mercury Of The Sages) is elucidated best by Boerhaave in the following quote...









"A New Method Of Chemistry" by Herman Boerhaave, 1753

The Alcahest of Paracelsus transmutes all the bodies in nature by subtilizing them: for, when bodies are subtilized as high as possible, they at length change to another substance, but retain their seminal properties: and by means of the Universal Solvent all things are brought back to their Ens Primum, and retain their native virtues; whence great and unlimited powers may be obtained. And plainer still; This liquor only, can dissolve all solids into their first matter, without any diminution or alteration in itself. Whence he recommends the knowledge of that homogeneous and immutable menstruum, which dissolves its subjects into their first liquid matter; whereby the internal essences of things and their properties may be seen.



If it does not have these properties, it is not our Universal Solvent.























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"Ma al-Waraqi" by Ibn Umail al-Tamimi, 900A.D.

"Mariya also said: The Water which I have mentioned is an Angel and descends from the sky, and the earth accepts it on account of its (the earth's) moistness. The water of the sky is held by the water of the earth, and the water of the earth acts as its servant, and its Sand serves for the purpose of honouring it. Both the waters are gathered together and the Water holds the Water. The Kiyan (Vital Principle) holds the Kiyan and the Kiyan is whitened by the Kiyan. She meant by this the coction of the Soul with the Spirit until both mix and are thoroughly cooked together and become a single thing like Marble.

As for her statement regarding the Angel, she meant by this the Divine Water which is the Soul. She named it Angel because it is spiritual, and because that Water has risen from the earth to the sky of the Birba. And as for her statement, the Water descends from the sky, she meant by this its return to Earth; and this Angel which she mentioned I shall explain to you in another way so that you may be aware of both explanations--if Allah will! She meant by this the child which they said will be born in the Air while Conception had taken place in the Lower region; this being through the Higher Celestial Strength which the water has gained by its absorption of the Air. Regarding this, Hermes said: 'The strength of the Highest and the Lowest will be found in it'.

They name this Water also The Rain which Revives the Lower World; and by all this is to be understood the Pure Silvery Water which is the Gold of the Sages. The Excellent Master, Hermes, named it the Good of many names.









"The Secret Book Of Artephius", 1150

The whole, then, of this antimonial secret is, that we know how by it to extract or draw forth argent vive, out of the body of Magnesia, not burning, and this is antimony, and a mercurial sublimate. That is, you must extract a living and incombustible water, and then congeal, or coagulate it with the perfect body of sol, i.e., fine gold, without alloy; which is done by dissolving it into a mature white substance of the consistency of cream, and made thoroughly white. But first this sol by putrefaction and resolution in this water, loseth all its light and brightness, and will grow dark and black; afterwards it will ascend above the water, and by little and little will swim upon it, in a substance of a white color. And this is the whitening of red laton to sublimate it philosophically, and to reduce it into its first matter; viz. into a white incombustible sulphur, and into a fixed argent vive. Thus the perfect body of sol, resumeth life in this water; it is revived, inspired, grows, and is multiplied in its kind, as all other things are. For in this water, it so happens, that the body compounded of two bodies, viz. sol and luna, is puffed up, swells, putrefies, is raised up, and does increase by the receiving from the vegetable and animated nature and substance.

Our water also, or vinegar aforesaid, is the vinegar of the mountains, i.e. of sol and luna; and therefore it is mixed with gold and silver, and sticks close to them perpetually; and the body receiveth from this water a white tincture, and shines with inestimable brightness. Who so knows how to convert, or change the body into a medicinal white gold, may easily by the same white gold change all imperfect metals into the best or finest silver. And this white gold is called by the philosophers "luna alba philosophorum, argentum vivum album fixum, aurum alchymiae, and fumus albus" (white philosophical silver, white fixed mercury, alchemical gold and white fume): and therefore without this our antimonial vinegar, the aurum album of the philosophers cannot be made. And because in our vinegar there is a double substance of argentum vivum, the one from antimony, and the other from mercury sublimated, it does give a double weight and substance of fixed argent vive, and also augments therein the native color, weight, substance and tincture thereof.

Our dissolving water therefore carries with it a great tincture, and a great melting or dissolving; because that when it feels the vulgar fire, if there be in it the pure and fine bodies of sol or luna, it immediately melts them, and converts them into its white substance such as itself is, and gives to the body color, weight, and tincture. In it also is a power of liquefying or melting all things that can be melted or dissolved; it is a water ponderous, viscous, precious, and worthy to be esteemed, resolving all crude bodies into their prima materia, or first matter, viz. earth and a viscous powder; that is into sulphur, and argentum vivum. If therefore you put into this water, leaves, filings, or calx of any metal, and set it in a gentle heat for a time, the whole will be dissolved, and converted into a viscous water, or white oil as aforesaid. Thus it mollifies the body, and prepares for liquefaction; yea, it makes all things fusible, viz. stones and metals, and after gives them spirit and life. And it dissolves all things with an admirable solution, transmuting the perfect body into a fusible medicine, melting, or liquefying, moreover fixing, and augmenting the weight and color.

Work therefore with it, and you shall obtain from it what you desire, for it is the spirit and soul of sol and luna; it is the oil, the dissolving water, the fountain, the Balneum Mariae, the praeternatural fire, the moist fire, the secret, hidden and invisible fire. It is also the most acrid vinegar, concerning which an ancient philosopher saith, I besought the Lord, and he showed me a pure clear water, which I knew to be the pure vinegar, altering, penetrating, and digesting. I say a penetrating vinegar, and the moving instrument for putrefying, resolving and reducing gold or silver into their prima materia or first matter. And it is the only agent in the universe, which in this art is able to reincrudate metallic bodies with the conservation of their species. It is therefore the only apt and natural medium, by which we ought to resolve the perfect bodies of sol and luna, by a wonderful and solemn dissolution, with the conservation of the species, and without any destruction, unless it be to a new, more noble, and better form or generation, viz. into the perfect philosopher's stone, which is their wonderful secret or arcanum.

Now this water is a certain middle substance, clear as fine silver, which ought to receive the tinctures of sol and luna, so as they may be congealed, and changed into a white and living earth. For this water needs the perfect bodies, that with them after the dissolution, it may be congealed, fixed, and coagulated into a white earth.









"Confession Of Trithemius", 1507

All things we behold are interiorly fire and light, in which is hidden the essence of the Spirit. All things are a Trinity of fire, light and air. In other words, the Spirit (the Father) is a superessential light; the Son is the Light manifested; the Holy Spirit is a moving Breath, divine and superessential.

All things have been made by the power of the Divine Word; which is the Spirit or Divine Breath emanated from the beginning from the Divine fountain. This Breath is the Spirit or Soul of the World and is called Spiritus Mundi. It was, at first, like air, then condensed to a nebulous fog and finally transmuted itself into water. This water was at first spirit and life, because it was impregnated and vivified by the Spirit. Darkness filled the abyss, but by the emission of the Word, the Light was engendered, the darkness was illuminated by the Light, and the Soul of the World was born.

This spiritual Light which we call Nature or Soul of the World is a spiritual body which may be rendered visible and tangible by alchemical processes; but as it is naturally invisible, it is called Spirit. It is a living universal fluid differed throughout Nature, and which penetrates everything. It is the most subtle of all substances; the most powerful, by reason of its inherent qualities. It penetrates every body and determines the forms in which it displays its activity. By its action, it frees the forms from all imperfection; it makes the impure pure, the imperfect perfect and the mortal immortal by its indwelling. This essence or Spirit emanated from the beginning from the Center and incorporated it self with the substance which the Universe is formed. It is the "Salt of the Earth", and without its presence the plant would not grow, nor the field becomes green and the more this essence is condensed, concentrated and coagulated in the forms, the more stable they become.

It is the most subtle of all substances. This Spirit is obtained in the same way as it is communicated to the earth by these stars and this is performed by means of the Water which serves as a vehicle to it. It is not the Philosopher's Stone, but this may be prepared from it by fixing the volatile. I advise you to pay great attention the boiling of the Water; do not let your spirit be troubled about things of less importance. Make it boil slowly, then let it putrefy until it has attained the fitting color, for the Water of Life contains the germ of wisdom. In boiling the Water will transform itself into Earth. This Earth will change into a pure crystalline fluid; which will produce a fine red Fire and this Water and this Fire, reduced to a single Essence, produce the great Panacea composed of sweetness and strength - the Lamb and the Lion united.









"The Secret Of The Liquor Alkahest" by Philalethes, 1683

Question. What is the Alkahest?

Answer. It is a Catholick and Universal Menstruum, and, in a Word, may be called Ignis-Aqua, a Fiery-Water, an uncompounded and immortal ens which is penetrative, resolving all things unto their first Liquid Matter, nor can anything resist its Power, for it acts without any reaction from the Patient: nor doth it suffer from anything but its Equal by which it is brought into Subjection; but after it hath dissolved all other things it remains entire in its former Nature, and is of the same Virtue after a thousand Operations as at the first.









"The Quintessence Of The Philosophers" by Theodorus Mundanus, 1683

Out of these Mountains of Salt (the Philosophers striking the Rock) flows a perpetual and copious River of an unctuous fat Water which moistens the whole Mountains, neither can it ever be dried by the heat of the Sun or exhausted by any Rivers which can flow from them.

This Water, from the Abundance of gold which it carries in its Streams deserves the highest praises and commendations of the Philosophers, much greater than tagns and partolus the sublime encomiums of the Poets; neither is it improperly and undeservedly Termed an Ocean because it is diffused through all things as it is the Radical Moisture of all the concretes of the Universe.

You may fitly and Ingeniously enough call it the Mediterranean Sea because it passes through the Center of our Earth, or Salt Mountain; the possession of this vast Sea is esteemed of great moment by the Philosophers, therefore it is counted by them of the highest price.









"Aphorisms Of Urbigerus", 1690

If the Caput Mortuum has not the Magnetic Quality in attracting the Spiritus Mundi into itself from the Astrums, it is a sign, that at time end of the Distillation of the red Oil the outward fire was so violent, as quite to burn up the Magnet, which is contained in the first Feces of our Mercurial Water.

The above-mentioned Spiritus Mundi is a great Menstruum in extracting of Tinctures out of Metals, Minerals, Animals, and Vegetables, and in performing great things in the Art volatilizing all fixed Bodies, and principally Gold.

The Quality of our Mercurial Water: being to volatilize all fixed Bodies, and to fix all those that are volatile fixing itself with those that are fixed, according to the Proportion of it, dissolving its own Body, it unites inseparably with it, conserving always its own Qualities and Properties, and receives no Augmentation from any other created thing, but only from its crude Body. Our Mercurial Water has such a sympathy with the Astrums, that, if it is not kept very close, and Hermetically sealed, it will in a very short time, like a winged Serpent, fly away in a wonderful manner to its own Sphere, carrying along with it all the Elements and Principles of Metals, and not leaving so much as one single drop, or the least remainder, behind.

Although we use our Mercury simplex in the Extraction of its own Soul out of its Body, and for the Clarification of the latter; yet, since it is a philosophical and perpetual Menstruum, it loses nothing of its connatural Prerogatives, nor does in the least diminish in Quantity, being our true Alkahest, as Paracelsus is pleased to call it.









"The Dwellings Of The Philosophers" by Fulcanelli, 1929

The subject of the art and our true solvent, is precisely the substance which the philosophers named the unique matrix, the mother of the Work; without her, it would be impossible for us to achieve the preliminary decomposition of metals...

"Truly", writes Limojon de Saint-Didier, "some philosophers seemingly quite sincere, nevertheless throw the artists into error solemnly asserting that who does not know the gold of the philosophers will however be able to find it in common gold cooked with the Mercury of the Philosophers. Those are Philalethes’ sentiments. He affirms that Trevisan, Zachaire, and Flamel have followed this path. He also adds that this is not the true path of the Sages although it leads to the same end. But these affirmations, sincere as they appear, nevertheless cannot but mislead artists who, eager to follow the same Philalethes through the purification and the animation that he teaches of common mercury so as to turn it into the Mercury of the Philosophers (a glaring error behind which he has hidden the secret of the mercury of the Sages) and undertake, taking his word for it, a very arduous and definitely impossible work. Thus, after a time-consuming work filled with difficulties and dangers, they obtain a mercury only slightly more impure than before they started, instead of a mercury animated with the celestial quintessence. A deplorable error that has lost, broken, and wills till ruin a great number of artists". Yet the seekers who successfully overcome the first obstacles and have drawn the living water from the ancient Fountain possess a key enabling them to open the doors of the hermetic laboratory...

The living water "more celestial than terrestrial", acting on the heavy matter breaks its cohesion, mollifies it, renders it progressively soluble, attached itself only to the pure parts of the disintegrated mass, abandons the other to the pure parts of the disintegrated mass, abandons the others and rises to the surface, dragging along what it could grasp that conformed to its own fiery and spiritual nature. This important characteristic of the ascension of the subtle by the separation of the coarse gained the operation of mercury of the sages the name of sublimation. Our solvent, all spirit, plays the symbolic role of the eagle taking away its prey and this is the reason why Philalethes, the Cosmopolite, Cyliani, d’Espagnet, and several others advise to let it fly away, emphasizing the need to make it fly. For the spirit rises and the matter precipitates...

The serpent-like image of mercury, by its two sections, represents the two parts of the dissolved metal which will become fixed later, one by the other, and whose joining will give it its new nature, its physical individuality, its efficiency. For the sulphur and mercury of metals, when extracted and isolated under the disintegrating energy of our first agent, or secret solvent, on their own by simple contact are reduced to the form of a viscous oil---a fatty and coagulable smoothness which the ancients called metallic humid radical and mercury of the sages....

Taking as an example Moses’ gesture it will suffice to sharply strike this rock (Greek, lepas) of arid and dry appearance three times in order to see the mysterious water that it contains, spring forth. It is the first solvent, common Mercury of the Sages, faithful servant of the artist, the only thing he needs and that nothing can replace according to the testimony of Geber and of the most ancient Adepts. Its volatile quality which allowed philosophers to assimilate this mercury to the common hydrargyrum, is moreover emphasized on our basrelief by the tiny lepidoptera wings (Greek, lepidos-pteron) affixed to the shoulders of the symbolic monster. However, in our opinion, the best name that authors have given to their mercury seems to be Spirit of magnesia. For they call magnesia (Greek, magnes, magnet) the coarse feminine matter which attracts by an occult virtue the spirit enclosed beneath the hard shell of the steel of the sages. The latter, penetrating like a burning flame into the body of the passive nature, burns, consumes its heterogeneous parts, drives away the arsenical (leprous) sulphur, and animates the pure mercury it contains and which appears in the conventional form of a liquor both humid and igneous ---the fire water of the Ancients---which we call Spirit of Magnesia and universal solvent.



https://i.imgur.com/6a9PAnb.jpg



Our Universal Solvent is a perfect conjunction of celestial and terrestrial, an inseperable union of volatile and fixed via Circulation (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5468-Our-Rotations-Circulation).


See also: One, Two, Three (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5466-One-Two-Three)

Further reading: "Alfred, or, The Youthful Enquirer" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4921-quot-Alfred-or-The-Youthful-Enquirer-quot-1824)

Florius Frammel
01-16-2018, 07:32 AM
If it does not have these properties, it is not our Universal Solvent.

This is not 100% suitable for a definition of the Universal Solvent. If it needs to dissolve all solids you would not get a vessel to put it into anyhow and anywhere.

Andro
01-16-2018, 08:20 AM
This is not 100% suitable for a definition of the Universal Solvent. If it needs to dissolve all solids you would not get a vessel to put it into anyhow and anywhere.

The "Universal Solvent" of Alchemy does NOT "dissolve" in a classical, chemical way. It has quite different actions/properties.

Thinking in terms of school chemistry will not be very helpful here :)

Florius Frammel
01-16-2018, 08:34 AM
Let's say you are right, Andro. Then we would first have to talk about an alchemical definition of "dissolving", or why Boerhaave did not use an other verb that's better suited to describe the properties of the US (not of A).

Weidenfeld
01-16-2018, 09:19 AM
The "Universal Solvent" of Alchemy does NOT "dissolve" in a classical, chemical way. It has quite different actions/properties.

Thinking in terms of school chemistry will not be very helpful here :)

My personal understanding how this 'universal solvent' acts on matter is quite different from a simple chemical dissolution. The real secret solvent should have the property to break down or to disassemble the matter (metal) into its three alchemical components, its 'Tria Prima'.

JDP
01-16-2018, 09:26 AM
This is not 100% suitable for a definition of the Universal Solvent. If it needs to dissolve all solids you would not get a vessel to put it into anyhow and anywhere.

That was in fact Kunckel's main objection to this claim of a "universal solvent" (in a literal sense.) But it is based on misunderstandings by chymists like van Helmont, Starkey, Boerhaave, etc., who were obviously not alchemists and did not know how to prepare the "water" of the alchemists. As Fulcanelli clarifies, this solvent "has been called the universal solvent, not because it is capable of dissolving all bodies in nature --- as many wrongly believe --- but because it can do everything in the small universe which the Great Work constitutes."

Another mistaken notion is that the solvent of alchemy remains exactly the same as it was even after it dissolves something, that it does not join with what it dissolved, and thus can be reused indefinitely. That is a confusion with the claims of van Helmont (who, once again, was NOT an alchemist and did NOT know how to make the Stone) regarding his supposed "alkahest", which is NOT the solvent of alchemy. The characteristic of the genuine alchemical solvent is in fact that it not only joins with the metallic/mineral matters it dissolves but it eventually "coagulates" with them as well, forming a permanent and inseparable union with them, and in the process of doing that generates a whole new substance (i.e. the alchemical "tinctures", of which the Stone is the most powerful and sought for.) In other words, the exact opposite of the Helmontian "alkahest"! Weidenfeld, a more observant and critical reader than the majority of his contemporaries who kept indiscriminately confusing these two topics, had already noticed this flagrant contradiction between the Helmontian claims regarding the "alkahest" and the genuine alchemical solvent, and quite eloquently summarizes it thus:

"But of these Difficulties, the first and greatest Obstacle withal, was my own unhappy
Preconception of some certain Alkahest: For being now out of the hope of attaining to the
preparation of this Liquor by other mens Books, as well as Paracelsus his own De Viribus
Membrorum, I betook my self to other places, treating of the Circulatum minus, and
Specificum corrosivum (as synonimous Terms of the Alkahest with some men) to which I
added the Aqua or Oleum Salis, Aqua Comedens, Aqua Regis, Circulatum majus, and one
after another being perswaded that some one only universal Menstruum was intended by all,
that I might find the Method of preparing this Liquor in all places compared together, which I
could not in each severally; but at length despairing, and being overcome by the manifold and
almost incredible, yet unsuccessful pains I took, I resolved to decline Chymy and Medicine, as
Arts too deep for my understanding. When behold! on a sudden the Eyes of my Mind were
opened, and I saw all these things differ, not in name only, but also in matter, preparation and
use; so instead of one Liquor Alkahest, which I sought for, I found in Paracelsus many
Menstruums, with the several Uses of them all in Medicine; now knew I how to prepare, and
according to Paracelsus; distinguish things into Essences, Magisteries, Astrums, Arcanums,
and those which he calls the less Medicines, so that which was in Paracelsus most difficult to
be understood by others, became more clear to me than any thing else; and so I obtained the
End sooner than the Beginning: Yet the Joy from thence accrewing, fell shorter than
expectation; for having tried several Experiments in vain, I came to understand that these
Menstruums of Paracelsus contained something abstruse and unknown, to be understood, not
in the least according to the Letter: whereupon, examining them more exactly and comparing
their Qualities with the Nature of the Liquor Alkahest, I found a vast difference between it and
them; for it is said, There is one Liquor Alkahest, and that universal; but many are the
Menstruums of Paracelsus, these indestructible, these destructible; these not mixing with
Bodies, these abiding with them; that preserves the Virtues of things, these alter them; that
ascends after the Essences of things in destillation, these before their dissolutions, etc. I was at
a stand sometime which part to take; one while I wish’d for one indestructible Liquor, rather
than many destructible Menstruums, supposing that one better than many, another while
changing my Mind, I desired the Menstruums, as sufficient for many Uses I knew before.
Truth overcame at length, enabling me now to demonstrate the most, if not all the
Medicines of Paracelsus in Guido and Basilius: On the contrary, I perceived the Arcanums of
Paracelsus, (commonly so called) as prepared by that Liquor Alkahest, or the like, to be more
and more different, yea contrary to the Authentick: wherefore as to the Preparation of
Medicines, I began to abstain, yea desisted from further enquiring into the obscure Matter,
Preparation and Use of that Liquor Alkahest, namely, that which I find described in one place
of Paracelsus as a Medicine, but not in the least as a Menstruum: Which Obstacle being
removed, I found an easie way from Paracelsus to Lully, Basilius, and other Philosophers of
the same Faculty, who I saw agreed all unanimously in confirmation of the Paracelsian
Menstruums; yea Light adding Light to Light, appeared so clear, that their preparation,
variety, simple and literal sense showed themselves all at once, one only Word remaining
unknown, yet expressing the universal Basis of all the Adepts, and that is Spirit of Wine, not
Common, but Philosophical; which being known and obtained, the greatest Philosophical,
Medicinal, Alchymical, and Magical Mysteries of the more secret Chymy, will be in the power
of the Possessor...

But you that have hitherto desired one only universal, immortal, indestructible Menstruum,
I mean, the Liquor Alkahest or Ignisaqua, that undeclinable word, instead of one, whereof
you never yet knew the Name, Matter, Preparation and Use, behold! I offer a great many
kinds of universal Menstruums, in their Descriptions more clear, in Virtues equivalent, if not
better than this your Alkahest. What others have either obscurely, or impertinently said and
written of this Liquor Alkahest, we little regard, as Opinions and Conjectures. By the
Menstruums of the Adepts, we intend not all manner of Dissolvents, prepared without the
Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and only corroding, but not in the least altering the more minute
Particles of Bodies: Nor do we understand an immortal Liquor, not permanent with things
dissolved in it: But by Menstruum we mean a volatile Liquor made several ways of the Spirit
of Philosophical Wine and divers things, not only separating Bodies, but also continuing with
them, and altering them with the addition of it self, so as to be no more two, nor again, what
they were before. For out of this Dissolution (the solemn Wedlock, inseparable Union and
Combination of Body and Menstruum) emergeth a new Being, containing the unblemished
Properties of the thing dissolved, and the thing dissolving, not at all separable by Art or
Nature."

That is also the reason why it is HOPELESS to try to make the Stone without this secret solvent, as it forms an integral part of its final mass. It would be as ridiculous as trying to make an omelette without eggs!

alfr
01-16-2018, 11:08 AM
hi JDP and everybody

spiritus wines phil and secret solvent

and the research and results of kunkel , of polt and weidenfeld etc very interesting (as I have already said in various post-authors whose analysis we need to deepen their precious indications) is beyond the prodromus of weidenfeld
that we find in English at this link

https://www.scribd.com/document/341659938/From-Weidenfeld-s-Prodromus-Libri-Secundi-1

moreover, for the understanding of the bases of the secret solvent phil is also very interesting also the following pdf which well framed the topic and the use of obtaining the base of a solvent phi as indicated by lullo and valentino from a spitus wines mortified with acids as pure indicates the mortification of oleosum with acid the weidenfeld in its proromus etc as it is also indicated with all the various references and indications of lullo texts etc in this pdf

http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/14610/1/291006.proof.pdf

regard

about kunkel someone has the translation in English French or in German not printed gothic of his text espistole contra spiritus wines sine acid ?

https://books.google.it/books/about/Johann_Kunckels_Churf%C3%BCrstl_Brandenb_Geh.html? id=bZhYAAAAcAAJ&redir_esc=y

and of the plot someone has a readable translation in modern characters of his manuscript Plot 3646 sloae ?

regard
.........................................
hi
sullo spiritus vini phil e solvente segreto e le ricerche e i risultati di polt e kunkel weidenfeld molto interessante (come ho gia detto in vari post autori cui doveremmo approfondire le analisi delle loro preziose indicazioni ) è oltre al prodromus del weidenfeld
che troviamo in inglese a questo link

https://www.scribd.com/document/341659938/From-Weidenfeld-s-Prodromus-Libri-Secundi-1

inoltre per la comprensione delle basi del solvente segreto phil è inoltre molto interessante anche il seguente pdf il quale ben inquadra l'argomento e l'uso di ottenere la base di un solvente phi come indicava lullo e valentino da uno spitus vini mortificato con acidi come pure indica la mortificazione di oleosum con acido il weidenfeld nel suo proromus etc come è anche indicato con tutti i vari riferimenti e indicazioni di testi di lullo etc in questo pdf

http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/14610/1/291006.proof.pdf

regard

a proposito di kunkel qualcuno ha la traduzione in inglese francese o in tedesco non stampato gotico del suo testo espistole contra spiritus vini sine acido ?

https://books.google.it/books/about/Johann_Kunckels_Churf%C3%BCrstl_Brandenb_Geh.html? id=bZhYAAAAcAAJ&redir_esc=y

e del plot qualcuno ha una traduzione leggibile in caratteri moderni del suo manoscritto Plot 3646 sloae ?

regard

Florius Frammel
01-16-2018, 12:33 PM
Thanks JDP,
the secret solvent can therefore be regarded as the (phil.) mercury. In middle ages people thought the semen of a male animal (phil. sulphur) must be placed into the menstrual blood (menstruum) of a female. Of course one needs an appropriate uterus (matrix, vessel) to be succesful and a new child (king) can rise from the grave (vessel, matrix again). Then again you have a connection to the homunculi some alchemists were talking about.

Kiorionis
01-16-2018, 05:06 PM
Based off my theoretical research, the secret solvent ought to exist in all things, because it ”dissolves” all things. Or dissolves into them. Also, being incombustible, it should be driven out of matter when that matter goes through combustion; though not being the only thing driven out. Of course this is looking at things from the bottom up.

From this, I’m hypothesizing that when plant matter is burnt, it blackens because the solvent is first set to work before being driven out. Either this, or Fire is the secret solvent. An incombustible thing which opens and “dissolves” all things.

Schmuldvich
01-16-2018, 11:27 PM
Another mistaken notion is that the solvent of alchemy remains exactly the same as it was even after it dissolves something, that it does not join with what it dissolved, and thus can be reused indefinitely. That is a confusion.

That is also the reason why it is HOPELESS to try to make the Stone without this secret solvent, as it forms an integral part of its final mass.

JDP,

Do you have any experience with our Secret/Universal Solvent?

Have you ever utilized it in your Work?

Dragon's Tail
01-17-2018, 12:03 AM
Based off my theoretical research, the secret solvent ought to exist in all things, because it ”dissolves” all things. Or dissolves into them. Also, being incombustible, it should be driven out of matter when that matter goes through combustion; though not being the only thing driven out. Of course this is looking at things from the bottom up.

From this, I’m hypothesizing that when plant matter is burnt, it blackens because the solvent is first set to work before being driven out. Either this, or Fire is the secret solvent. An incombustible thing which opens and “dissolves” all things.

Interesting to hear you say this. I've considered a LOT whether "our Mercury" actually referred to fire itself. Or more generally, that Mercury is a process more than a physical thing.

Lately I've been tinkering with the idea that a "water that does not wet the hands" is actually a solid at room temp, and must be liquefied (by melting) to be used in the work. In that case, flasks aren't as important as crucibles ;) This would also fit the description that every metal is born of its own mercury. Take iron ore for instance. Pop it in a smelter without access to much air with coal (our bituminous matter) heat it up, the coal persists with the fire, the slag (or feculance) drops out, and we are left with a spongey black mass that must be worked (hammered) into an ingot, to receive a more perfect mineral: iron. Actually in that case it would be a certain grade of steel, depending on the ingredients and smelting process. Something worth some meditation for sure.

z0 K
01-17-2018, 12:20 AM
Based off my theoretical research, the secret solvent ought to exist in all things, because it ”dissolves” all things. Or dissolves into them. Also, being incombustible, it should be driven out of matter when that matter goes through combustion; though not being the only thing driven out. Of course this is looking at things from the bottom up.

From this, I’m hypothesizing that when plant matter is burnt, it blackens because the solvent is first set to work before being driven out. Either this, or Fire is the secret solvent. An incombustible thing which opens and “dissolves” all things.

Fire and Water penetrate. Earth and Air coagulate. Fire is the Universal Solvent but not the Secret Solvent. That is an artful menstruum regulated by Fire in which Air and Earth coagulate Philosophical Matter in the vessel of our Blessed Water.

For plants the Earth of plants is in the menstruum. For metals the earth of metals is in the menstruum. This according to Dunstan. Ripley and Kelley both had copies of Dunstan's book. Both maintained that Exact Piece of Philosophy. I'm working on it now getting the starting matter ready to expose the Elements described following the protocols of that Piece of Philosophy.

Mistakes will be made hammering out the process but it all starts with the matter of the Secret Solvent.

elixirmixer
01-17-2018, 02:10 AM
Sol is His father, Luna is His mother.

Fire, Air, Water, and Earth, are regulatory phase changes uniquely specialized to the evolution of matter.

What has evolved all plants, animals, minerals and metals here on earth? Sol & Luna, regulated elementally, in order that all will grow into a life sustaining balance.

We use extremes in order to bend and snap our chemical understanding into one of higher Hermetic Knowledge.

We use a balanced quad-polar Square, which is our Malkuth, in order to nurture, grow and mature this Celestial Child.

No things hold this Solvent. It is the solvent that holds and penetrates all other things. Nothing is the solvent and yet nothing would exist without it. It is the source of all things philosophical, it is that which all things seek to have, albeit ignorantly, and foolishly poison themselves with its infinite particulars.

We are told, and with certainty it is true, that all is condensed light.
We are told, and with certainty without doubt, that all metals have conjealed from these celestial fires. So why then, do you look toward anything bar Sol & Luna, since we are certain that all good things that were made, are made, and will henceforth be made, come from He, Their one Child, which hath only two Parents and no more. This is a celestial stone, made terrestrial through art, and it should henceforth be treated as such, and not as some abominable liquor, given to any good chymist, for God only bistows the Child, to the true Sage, and He does so from the heavens, and not from a vile assortment of acids and salts as the puffers believe.

This is a nobal and hidden art, and the Hermetic mind only has understanding, since it is its church, its practise, its industry.

Be Watchful.

JDP
01-17-2018, 09:32 AM
JDP,

Do you have any experience with our Secret/Universal Solvent?

Have you ever utilized it in your Work?

SUI (Subject Under Investigation): Several possibilities being put to the test. Trial & error and process of elimination. The only way to arrive at any correct answer. No other way. But naturally this takes a lot of time, money, patience and perseverance, no matter how many dead-ends you are confronted with. Which is why the large majority of seekers do not succeed. They tend to quit after only a few failures. Then out of frustration they tend to plunge into the realm of pure fantasy, like "many different paths" using all sorts of different substances and no secret solvent but all manner of different (common) solvents. Then they naturally fail again, but this time they try to disguise it by claiming success in making "other Stones" since, unlike the genuine Stone, their vulgar chemical concoctions do NOT transmute metals. Poppycock!

JDP
01-17-2018, 09:38 AM
Based off my theoretical research, the secret solvent ought to exist in all things, because it ”dissolves” all things. Or dissolves into them.

Kunckel's objection to this idea was very simple: such a solvent, if it really exists, would be useless, since the operator would not be able to find a vessel in which to contain it. So obviously a "universal solvent" in a true literal sense is a chimera. Some alchemists have exaggerated by using the expression "universal", but they meant it in the context of the "Great Work". It dissolves the metallic/mineral matters used in making the Stone. Obviously it will not literally dissolve "everything", like glass or ceramics, for example. If that was true, alchemy would simply be impossible to be carried out. Its own secret solvent would be impossible to use since it would not be able to be contained anywhere! (i.e. Kunckel's objection to such a claim)

Weidenfeld
01-17-2018, 10:26 AM
How crucial and important the ‘Universal Solvent’ for true Alchemy naturally is had already recognized the medicinal doctor and Rosicrucean Rudolf Johann Fridrich Schmid from Hamburg in the first half of the 18th century in his rather unknown book about the universal solvent(s) or menstrua.
It’s full title is:

Enchiridion alchymico-physicum sive Disquisitio de menstruis universalibus vel liquoribus alcahestinis philosophorum illorum æque ac tincturæ et lapidis philosophorum nec non viarum ad Tincturam Metallorum ducentium distinctam cognitionem generatim suppeditans, et hoc modo totius philosophiæ pyrotechnicæ fundamenta philosophorum auctoritate, experientia, pariter et firmissimis rationibus fulta ante oculos ponens in philochimicorum gratiam non minus ac pyrosophiæ secretoris incrementum adornatum atque editum a Rud. Jo. Frid. Schmidio Medicinae Doctore & Practico.

http://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/32469/5/

I think Schmid’s book could be a good starter for the subject, however, even Schmid didn’t know how to make the secret solvent or didn’t mention it.
Unfortunately there is no English translation however there might be around a contemporary German translation …

Florius Frammel
01-17-2018, 12:28 PM
Therse is also a quite detailled recipie for the secret solvent in Salomon Trismosins Aureum Vellus.

He uses Mercury, Alum, Saltpeter destilled together with ethanol. With NaCl and gold leafs you are supposed to get the stone.

Weidenfeld
01-17-2018, 01:13 PM
Therse is also a quite detailled recipie for the secret solvent in Salomon Trismosins Aureum Vellus.

He uses Mercury, Alum, Saltpeter destilled together with ethanol. With NaCl and gold leafs you are supposed to get the stone.

Could lead to a very dirty kind of royal water ...

True Initiate
01-17-2018, 02:27 PM
I think Schmid’s book could be a good starter for the subject, however, even Schmid didn’t know how to make the secret solvent or didn’t mention it.


Which means that secret solvent was just a theoretical concept like phlogiston theory with no basis in reality .

JDP
01-17-2018, 02:33 PM
Therse is also a quite detailled recipie for the secret solvent in Salomon Trismosins Aureum Vellus.

He uses Mercury, Alum, Saltpeter destilled together with ethanol. With NaCl and gold leafs you are supposed to get the stone.

Too bad it does not work and is obviously a totally phony process (like much of Trismosin's texts, which have little to do with the Philosophers' Stone, BTW, and are mostly concerned with "particulars".) No one has ever published a totally clear instruction (with the common names of all the substances involved clearly identified & spelled out) on how to make the secret solvent. Had someone done so, alchemy would have ceased to be a "mystery" (to the average Joe) or considered an "impossibility" (by chemists and physicists) a long time ago.

JDP
01-17-2018, 02:34 PM
Which means that secret solvent was just a theoretical concept like phlogiston theory with no basis in reality .

No, it only means that he did not know how to make it.

Kiorionis
01-17-2018, 04:11 PM
Fire and Water penetrate. Earth and Air coagulate. Fire is the Universal Solvent but not the Secret Solvent. That is an artful menstruum regulated by Fire in which Air and Earth coagulate Philosophical Matter in the vessel of our Blessed Water.

For plants the Earth of plants is in the menstruum. For metals the earth of metals is in the menstruum. This according to Dunstan. Ripley and Kelley both had copies of Dunstan's book. Both maintained that Exact Piece of Philosophy. I'm working on it now getting the starting matter ready to expose the Elements described following the protocols of that Piece of Philosophy.

Mistakes will be made hammering out the process but it all starts with the matter of the Secret Solvent.

Fire as Universal Solvent makes sense. Im curious if you agree with this, or if relationships like this are useful:

Fire penetrates Earth, Water penetrates Air
Earth coagulates Water, Air coagulates Fire.

?

alfr
01-17-2018, 04:42 PM
SOLVENT SECRET, SPIRITUS VINE PHILOSOPHICI ETC imho the kunkel, the plot e weindenfeld etc give all about the secret solvent philosophical some very big indication to the first base of the solvent secret so imho is very important analyzed and study deep they and about this base there are a one very interesting indication also in this VIII chapter of glauber of the Pharmacopea Spagyric when he quote basilio valentino

GLAUBER
PHARMACOPEA SPAGYRIC

Chapter VIII.
How by help of the Vegetable Fire, Mineral Fires may be extinguished, and the corrosive fiery disposition of them converted into sweetness.

It is very well known, that the greater common Fire doth always (as often as one is set near the other) either extinguish the lesser, or cause it to languish, the same also happens to Philosophick Fires. As for example, Put into a Stone dish or Pan, Spirit of Salt, Vitriol, Niter, or Sulphur, or some other acid Spirit, and three, four, or six parts of the best Spirit of Wine which kindle, and the Spirit of Wine will burn away, but the acid Spirit through the subtility of the flame becomes sweet. Which sweet Spirits, especially that of Sulphur and Salt, manifest great Virtues in Medicine. BASIL VALENTINE speaks of the dulcified Spirit of Salt, that it extracts from Gold its Tincture; and that he, who knows how to dulcifie it, will be honoured by Philosophers. He in like manner teacheth that Spirit of Wine is seven times to be abstracted thence: Yet undoubtedly he intended not the vulgar Abstraction, but this secret Abstraction, rather, of which we now speak. Because such Spirits are not dulcified at one time, but Spirit of Wine is often to be abstracted thence by the help of Fire, before they will be sufficiently dulcified.

about see also the pdf

http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/14610/1/291006.proof.pdf

z0 K
01-17-2018, 07:16 PM
Fire as Universal Solvent makes sense. Im curious if you agree with this, or if relationships like this are useful:

Fire penetrates Earth, Water penetrates Air
Earth coagulates Water, Air coagulates Fire.

?

Fire penetrates Air, Water and Earth. Water penetrates Air and Earth. Air coagulates Fire, Water and Earth. Earth coagulates Fire and Water.

Dendritic Xylem
01-17-2018, 07:21 PM
Based off my theoretical research, the secret solvent ought to exist in all things, because it ”dissolves” all things. Or dissolves into them.


Kunckel's objection to this idea was very simple: such a solvent, if it really exists, would be useless, since the operator would not be able to find a vessel in which to contain it.


Don't electrons contradict this objection? Electrons are contained in all 'things'. They can also be accumulated and trapped. So Kunckel's perspective might be limited/obsolete?

To be clear, I'm not saying that electrons are the secret solvent. Just using them as an analogy.

Maybe the said solvent actually IS present in all natural matter, but very diluted and miserly.
Maybe the goal of Alchemy is to accumulate/concentrate this secret solvent of nature until it is capable of exotic reactions.


But like you, I have not found it yet. So it is all speculation and hearsay for now.

Weidenfeld
01-17-2018, 07:24 PM
Fire penetrates Earth, Water penetrates Air
Earth coagulates Water, Air coagulates Fire.


Sounds like the game of rock-paper-scissors :o

True Initiate
01-17-2018, 08:15 PM
Don't electrons contradict this objection? Electrons are contained in all 'things'.
They can also be accumulated and trapped...

Accumulate/concentrate electrons into electric current


Maybe the goal of Alchemy is to accumulate/concentrate this secret solvent of nature until it is capable of exotic reactions.

Exotic reactions = fusion/fission

Schmuldvich
01-17-2018, 09:32 PM
Maybe the goal of Alchemy is to accumulate/concentrate this secret solvent of nature until it is capable of exotic reactions.


Exotic reactions = fusion/fission

Or, looking at it another way....

Centripetal force and centrifugal force.

True Initiate
01-18-2018, 12:05 AM
Hmm, interesting...

Centripetal force = Compressing electricity

Centrifugal force = Expanding radioactivity

Pay attention to the sentence coloured in red at the bottom of the page.

https://s18.postimg.org/rju6hbdad/10830733_10152559677447581.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rju6hbdad/)

Schmuldvich
01-18-2018, 12:36 AM
Or, looking at it another way....

Centripetal force and centrifugal force.


Hmm, interesting...

Centripetal force = Compressing electricity

Centrifugal force = Expanding radioactivity

Pay attention to the sentence coloured in red at the bottom of the page.

https://s18.postimg.org/rju6hbdad/10830733_10152559677447581.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rju6hbdad/)

YES!!!

I love that you have been posting so much Walter Russell lately! It seems that he, Nikola Tesla, and John Keely understood things so well that the masses don't understand (and were led to misunderstand).


What I was getting at was that centrifugal force pushes outward from within (radiation/diffusion/expansion/decomposition/degeneration) and centripetal force pulls inward from within (compression/concentration/contraction/composition/generation).









"Walter Russell"

Cold contracts;
contraction generates;
generation heats;
heat radiates;
radiation expands;
expansion cools and
cold again contracts.

Thus we have the cycles [Circulation] of generation, radiation and regeneration, which continue forever and forever throughout endless ages.

Through these repeative cycles, form is "created" by the pulling inward from within pressures of generation, and is decomposed by the pushing outward from within pressures of radiation.


In the context of this thread, if we know our Matter to be ONE (All-in-All) we see that centrifugal force separates our Matter while centripetal force coagulates our Matter into something more excellent than it was originally.

Both forces are at play throughout our Work during the various Stages that our Matter undergoes as it is cocted towards higher perfection.

True Initiate
01-18-2018, 12:49 AM
Exactly! Even if we are talking about the qualities of universal solvent which is able to reduce any mineral into its own constituents, electricity is the best way to do it. Secret fire of the alchemists must have been electricity.

Schmuldvich
01-18-2018, 01:42 AM
Exactly! Even if we are talking about the qualities of universal solvent which is able to reduce any mineral into its own constituents, electricity is the best way to do it. Secret fire of the alchemists must have been electricity.

Hmm....





"Motion-in-opposition is under either preponderantly electric or magnetic domination" - Walter Russell

--------------

"All motion is oscillatory, swinging in sequence between two apparently opposing forces, gravitation
and repulsion, which are respectively electric and magnetic." - Walter Russell

--------------

"Generation and radiation are opposites which constitute the appearance, of motion-in-opposition.

Generation is the attractive, gravitative, positive, electric force, and radiation is the repulsive,
emanative, negative, magnetic force." - Walter Russell

--------------

"Electrically generating elements and magnetically radiating lines of force are the same force exerted
in apparently opposite directions. The former is centripetal and its direction is toward the nucleal (center
of a closing spiral. The latter is centrifugal and its direction is away from the center toward the opening spiral).

Their difference is but a rising or lowering of potential.

One always becomes the other. Each is the cause of the other.

Radio-activity is a lowering of potential into 5 higher octaves of elements of greater speed but lesser power.

Genero-activity is the increasing of potential into lower octaves of greater power and lesser speed.

Genero-activity builds the elements. Radio-activity tears them apart." -Walter Russell

--------------

"Sex is the apparent division of the One force into electricity and magnetism, two opposite forces,
positive and negative, which are in reality but two pulsations of the One force." - Walter Russell

--------------

"Form of substance is electro-magnetic. This means that it is preponderantly male and preponderantly
female in periodicity.

All idea evolves from idea into form of idea, which in turn devolves back again into idea. Evolution
is growth. Devolution is dissolution. Evolution is male. It is electrically preponderant. Devolution is
female. It is magnetically dominant." - Walter Russell

--------------

"The dynamic energy born of the action and reaction of universal thinking is the beginning of the
activity of that which man calls "electricity" and "magnetism" through which the universal constant of
energy functions in the creation of separate appearances in matter by periodic changes of dimension.

It is the beginning of apparent division of indivisible things into their apparent opposites.
It is the beginning of sex. Sex begins when the opposites of light begin.
It is the beginning of that which man knows as light and of the colors of light.
It is the beginning of life." - Walter Russell

--------------

"As it should also by now be thoroughly understood that the words "matter" and "light" are used in
the sense of characterizing the substance of Mind, and that the word "energy" is used in the sense of
characterizing the force, or life principle which makes of Mind a thinking substance; that the words
"electricity" and "magnetism" are used in the sense of characterizing the apparent division of the One
force of energy into the appearance of two." - Walter Russell

--------------

"All light units of matter are given the appearance of form by the magnetic reaction of the attempt of
electricity to seek higher pressures.
This attempt is resisted by magnetism, and the resistance is registered in electricity as heat.
The rebound into lower pressures and the sudden cooling of the electric whirling particle by the
expansion of the lower pressure causes it to solidify.
It is turned into ice. It freezes.
It becomes what is known as "crystallic."
All matter is crystallic. Crystallization is a dimension. It is the first appearance of 'form.
Matter registers its energy through temperature dimension of heat and cold in solids of light which
man calls "crystals."
Crystals are but apparent solids of light sustained in that illusion of appearance by motion.
Crystallization is one of the most important dimensions of the illusion of form.
Nothing concerning the basic principle or law governing crystallization is known by modern science." - Walter Russell

--------------

"All of man's elements are the same in substance. Their apparent difference is due to difference in
dimension only." - Walter Russell



True Initiate, if by electricity you mean the attractive generative force, then sure, we agree. But I have a feeling you are referring to the modern concept of electricity, which in my opinion was not something the Ancients used to perfect our Universal Solvent.



"Electricity is the active, attractive force within Mind which appears to concentrate, contract and
compress the non-compressible substance of Mind into the forms created by the process of thinking,
and to evolve those forms by raising the potential, or power dimension, of energy by accumulation.

Magnetism is the reactive, repellant force within the substance of Mind which appears to expand the
forms created by Mind in the process of thinking, and to accomplish their dissolution through lowering
the potential of energy by releasing the accumulation."
- Walter Russell


https://i.imgur.com/NIbiSD4.png





JDP,

Do you have any experience with our Secret/Universal Solvent?

Have you ever utilized it in your Work?


SUI (Subject Under Investigation): Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah possibilities being put to the test. Trial & error and process of elimination. The only way to arrive at any correct answer. No other way. But naturally this takes a lot of time, money, patience and perseverance, no matter how many dead-ends you are confronted with. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah the large majority of seekers do not succeed. They tend to quit after only a few failures. Then out of frustration they tend to plunge into the realm of pure fantasy, like "many different paths" using all sorts of different substances and no secret solvent but all manner of different (common) solvents. Then they naturally fail again, but this time they try to disguise it by claiming success in making "other Stones" since, unlike the genuine Stone, their vulgar chemical concoctions do NOT transmute metals blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Short answer: NO.

So you have no experience with our Universal/Secret Solvent yet you discard all the other [true] references and descriptions out there, and instead resonate with the opinion of Weidenfeld that there are multiple solvents out there (which there are indeed, but which are not our Universal/Secret Solvent). ...Why do you take this position?

If you have not succeeded and do not firsthand know what you are talking about, why do you choose to deliver what you say as fact, without having any evidence even for yourself, that what you say is true?? [Not to hop on the Andro-JDP bashing train but] as a self-proclaimed empiricist AGAPDOTAJDP you sure do have your mind made up about things you have neither confirmed or denied for yourself.

Andro
01-18-2018, 06:34 AM
Not to hop on the Andro-JDP bashing train

There's is no such "bashing train", but regardless, you've just jumped on it, right after creating it by giving it a name :)


but as a self-proclaimed empiricist AGAPDOTAJDP you sure do have your mind made up about things you have neither confirmed or denied for yourself.

Indeed - JDP, your words are not only those of a Man of Science, but also of a Man of Faith. Which I find awesome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Science,_Man_of_Faith), BTW.

Personally, I very much encourage a skeptical approach. It is a much needed commodity when practicing Alchemy. But it requires having an open mind as well, with no pre-conceived notions - to complement the skepticism and allow for genuinely lucrative research.


But naturally this takes a lot of time, money, patience and perseverance, no matter how many dead-ends you are confronted with. [...] the large majority of seekers do not succeed. They tend to quit after only a few failures.

Sometimes it is our Faith that keeps us going, even when everything else seems to have failed us so far...

I think we can learn a lot from such exchanges. There is no "bashing train", there are no attacks of a personal nature, so I find such exchanges to have good rectification values... occasionally :)

alfr
01-18-2018, 07:45 AM
Hi JDP and everybody

about the solvent secret phil., spiritus vine philosophical

JDP you have reason the key it is solvent secret philosophical and this secret key there are...
and also Kunkel ,Plot and Weidenfeld give a very interesting indication and instruction as made IT
as always i said (in many of my post) if we want understood the true mature as made solvent secret we must deep analyzed Kunkel , Plot, Weidenfeld etc

but JDP is not true that the exact instruction on solvent secret never are write .. its is are write and this instruction on secret solvent and spiritus mundi philosophical are give in very clear form in some manuscript RC etc manuscript rare and very little know and unpublished and about it also there are some manuscript STRICTLY OPERATIVE also now reconized to be of weidenlfeld

and as we will see now can see by quote of this very rare and very little know and unpublished manuscript of weidenfeld in it there are the clear explication strictly operative of the him weidenfeld prodromus ( nb imho the books prodromus it is already very generous... )
https://www.scribd.com/document/341659938/From-Weidenfeld-s-Prodromus-Libri-Secundi-1

.............................

SO NOW..
here by this very rare and very little know and unpublished manuscript STRICTLY OPERATIVE of the WEIDENFELD on the Secret Solvent and SIRITUS VINE PHILOSOPHICAL i quote here one very interesting paragraphe

quote :

.... In this kingdom the specification of light is not immediately from God but mediatly or accidentally by nature, wherefore the said specifications
are imitable by art, yea the artist often outdoes nature and highly improves her products. The artist being steadily guided by reason, removes all obstacles that lies in his way, and duely applies his principles according to certain and infallible rules, which nature cannot do, and for as much as nature in this kingdom makes all her specifications of the oleosum by means of the aridum and acidum only; the artist is not only able to imitate nature, but also to understand, a priori, all the specifications of this kingdom, from artificial principles of his own, and understands how to exalt them to such a degree, of efficacy, subtlety and penetrancy, that no vessel can be made compact enough to hold them, and thus the artist is kept from proceeding to farther degrees of exaltation: But his comfort is that as they are, they will abundantly answer his expectation. ....

AS ALWAYS I SAY (in many of my post) FOR UNDERSTAND DEEPLY THE SOLVENT SECRET PHILOSOPHICAL WE MUST ANALYZED AND STUDY VERY DEEP THE WEIDENFELD and ITS BOOKS SECRETUM ADEPTORUN and PRODROMUS THAT THEY ARE ALREADY VERY GENEROUS and KEYS VERY IMPORTANT

my best regard

ps but the use and made this secret solvent and spiritus vini philosophical is not the only alchemy way
alchemy is immense diversified and magnificent and there are in alchemy also ways in which one single material from which everything is extracted is used throughout the work
nb in alchemy there are many way and many method and many matters (and for have peep confirmations of this is sufficient) see the original text an manuscrit operative RC thesauro theaurorun toeltis extasi secret of federico gualdi the alchemy solar text and manuscript arcana divina etc

JDP
01-18-2018, 08:04 AM
So you have no experience with our Universal/Secret Solvent yet you discard all the other [true] references and descriptions out there, and instead resonate with the opinion of Weidenfeld that there are multiple solvents out there (which there are indeed, but which are not our Universal/Secret Solvent). ...Why do you take this position?

The "true" descriptions that you posted are actually a mixed bag, some of them from actual alchemists (like Ibn Umail or Artephius), and some of them from speculating "chymists" (like Boerhaave) who did not know how to prepare the said solvent and in fact often confused it with the Helmontian "alkahest", which alleged properties were quite different from those of the "water" of the alchemists. If you only had made a careful and critical comparison between the genuine alchemical sources you quoted and the speculative & confused chymical sources you also quoted, you would have grasped the easy difference.

Did you actually bother to carefully read Weidenfeld's summary regarding this subject? It doesn't look like you did. He says that there's many alchemical "menstruums" BUT ALL BASED ON THE SAME SECRET SOLVENT, WHICH HE USUALLY LIKES TO CALL "SPIRIT OF PHILOSOPHICAL WINE", and which he clearly distinguishes from the common solvents that do not have this secret solvent as its basis and only superficially corrode metals and divide them into small particles and form salts but do not permanently remain with them (i.e. they can always be separated from the dissolved metals, and the metals are recovered just as they were before the solution.) The reason why I totally agree with what Weidenfeld says in that passage is simply because he is giving an accurate general summary of the characteristics of the alchemical solvent as explained by the alchemists themselves. Had you read alchemical literature more carefully and critically instead of accepting even obvious confused speculations by "chymists" like Boerhaave, you would see that Weidenfeld's general observations on this subject are right and totally based on actual alchemical sources. The supposed Helmontian "alkahest" HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALCHEMY AND ITS SECRET SOLVENT. IT DOES NOT REMAIN PERMANENTLY JOINED WITH THE METALLIC MATTERS IT DISSOLVES, TOTALLY THE OPPOSITE OF THE ALCHEMICAL SOLVENT.


If you have not succeeded and do not firsthand know what you are talking about, why do you choose to deliver what you say as fact, without having any evidence even for yourself, that what you say is true?? [Not to hop on the Andro-JDP bashing train but] as a self-proclaimed empiricist AGAPDOTAJDP you sure do have your mind made up about things you have neither confirmed or denied for yourself.

Perhaps you miss the point that I do have very good reasons to suspect what the alchemists are talking about based on actual empirical experience. Have you any knowledge of what reactions can produce from apparently "dry" and solid substances strange LIQUIDS, SOLIDS, & SEMI-SOLIDS (sometimes all three at the same time!) as the ones the alchemists describe in their books? I bet you don't (you still think they are actually talking about "one matter only" in a true quantitative sense from the very start of the operations, so how could you possibly know about any of this??? No single matter found anywhere in nature will display all the things the alchemists describe.) But I do. I have seen such reactions with my own eyes. Have you seen the "liquefying/solution", "swelling" and "blackening" of the (composite) "Magnesia" that happens during such initial operations? Nope, I don't think even for a minute that you actually have (for reasons already explained.) And obviously not just about any combination of substances will bring about such reactions that give rise to such strange byproducts. But like I said, this subject takes a lot of time and effort to unravel. Even when you are "on the right track" it is not easy to figure out and hit on the best combinations and methods.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 10:00 AM
Have you any knowledge of what reactions can produce from apparently "dry" and solid substances strange LIQUIDS, SOLIDS, & SEMI-SOLIDS (sometimes all three at the same time!) as the ones the alchemists describe in their books? I bet you don't
you can bet all you like, its just your opinion

No single matter found anywhere in nature will display all the things the alchemists describe.
as far as you know from your own experience
your personal conjecture

Florius Frammel
01-18-2018, 12:48 PM
Kibric is right, JDP. Your own arguments can indeed be held against you here.
Unless you are not willing to give instructions to at least some reactions to have your above written obeservations verified by others too.

JDP
01-18-2018, 02:27 PM
you can bet all you like, its just your opinion

It might sound like just an "opinion" to you because you are not familiar with such empirical facts, but to those who have stumbled upon them and seen them with their own eyes and carried them out with their own hands it is no "opinion" but just plain facts. And more importantly, they fit very nicely with a lot of what the alchemists themselves describe. "Coincidence"? Remains to be seen yet, but sounds very unlikely. I don't believe in "coincidences", not when the similarities are so blatant!

And BTW, these byproducts come from real, factual, tangible, visible substances, available to anyone (yes, you included), so it is not the same as a certain "something" pulled pretty much out of "nowhere" and supposedly found "everywhere" but yet mysteriously not seen or detected even by the modern apparatuses of physics (!?!?) which can detect even such "invisible" and "intangible" things as microwaves, yet the alchemists themselves could not even discover something as relatively tangible as oxygen, which was literally right under their noses, and that simply just because they could not actually see it. Go figure! The alchemists were excellent experimenters, but with things they could actually see with their eyes and directly manipulate with their hands. Throw in even something as simple as invisible gases and they were hopelessly stumped and could not adequately explain even relatively simple things like calcination and combustion. Such was the mental framework of the alchemists. So it is not an analogous case. The first one is well within the realm of historical possibility and reality, the second one isn't and it sounds just like an unproven speculative/theoretical flight of fancy from some centuries past.


as far as you know from your own experience
your personal conjecture

Not just my experience, but the collective experience of all seekers, chymists and chemists through the centuries who submitted virtually all single naturally-occurring substances they could lay their hands on to analysis. None of them display all the things the alchemists talk about. There is no such "one matter" found already made in nature that can do all the things the alchemists describe . But what you can find in nature are the substances used for preparing that "one matter" (in outward appearance) yourself.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 02:40 PM
It might sound like just an "opinion" to you because you are not familiar with such empirical facts,
assumptions now...you dont know what i'm familiar with, yet again more personal conjecture from you
it sounds like an opinion because it is an opinion


but to those who have stumbled upon them and seen them with their own eyes and carried them out with their own hands it is no "opinion" but just plain facts
so you can prove without question its not one matter ?
please show your verifiable evidence beyond quotes
show us your plain facts ?
because if you cant show empirical facts to confirm or deny the approach
it remains your personal conjecture


There is no such "one matter" found already made in nature that can do all the things the alchemists describe
yes thats your opinion you made clear
from my experience and others i work with there is a one matter found already in nature
if you were half as smart as you think you are
you might of found it

once again your personal conjecture your trying to pass of as empirical fact

you dont have half the experience of most people on this forum
yet act like you know everything

according to your own conclusions and opinion there is no one matter
but you cannot talk or speak for every other alchemist out there and their experience
although you will try

Andro
01-18-2018, 02:41 PM
As long as one hasn't yet prepared the secret solvent themselves, or at least seen it in action, it is an opinion, no matter how we spin it.

IF one has experiential/witnessing knowledge of this "secret solvent", one would also know its action/operation (on gold, for example), as well as how it mixes/reacts with the gold at almost every stage, except for one instance where it doesn't, but the extracted "Living Sulfur" (extracted/separated by means of the solvent) rather actually floats on top of the solvent (end of second rotation - the "dragon" resting on the "ground").

Andro
01-18-2018, 02:44 PM
once again you personal conjecture your trying to pass of as empirical fact

Yes, please let's all avoid such fallacies. They tend to disrupt/derail otherwise valuable discussions/exchanges.

I have personally not "discovered" a matter that's readily available in nature, that can be used to perform the entire work from beginning to end.

BUT - I am certainly not in a position to negate such thing, just because I (or others that I know of) haven't "found" it. That would be foolishly dogmatic on my part.

In my own work, it IS "one matter", but not something that can be found in nature readily available. It needs to be extracted/separated/corporified/etc... And then - it is very much physically tangible.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 02:53 PM
I am certainly not in a position to negate such thing, just because I (or others that I know of) haven't "found" it. That would be foolishly dogmatic on my part.

very sensible and an adult way of approaching the art

JDP
01-18-2018, 03:09 PM
assumptions now...you dont know what i'm familiar with, yet again more personal conjecture from you
it sounds like an opinion because it is an opinion

"Opinion" based on your very own reactionary previous post!


so you can prove without question its not one matter ?
please show your verifiable evidence beyond quotes ?
because if you cant
it remains your personal conjecture

Please, show verifiable evidence beyond quotes that such a matter exists already made somewhere in nature that can display everything that the alchemists describe?


yes thats your opinion you made clear
There is a one matter found already in nature
if you were half as smart as you think you are
you might of found it

Then apparently the alchemists themselves weren't "half as smart" as they thought they were either, because they made it themselves, and simply because it actually is not found already made anywhere in nature. Do you think they were masochists and liked to unnecessarily waste time and work to make something that could actually have been found already made somewhere for their convenience?


once again your personal conjecture your trying to pass of as empirical fact
you dont have half the experience of most people on this forum
yet act like you know everything

No, more like twice the experience (and let's not say anything about the familiarity with all manner of sources, both alchemical and "chymical"); at least certainly more than you.


according to your own conclusions and opinion there is no one matter
you cannot talk or speak for every other alchemist out there and their experience
although you will try

Empirical facts are the same for all, not just for me. So where is this mythical "one matter" found in nature already made for everyone's convenience that can perform everything the alchemists describe? It seems to be very notable only for its absence.

Dragon's Tail
01-18-2018, 03:24 PM
JDP,

I'm curious about your process more than your ingredients. It is pretty well a system of mixing some various substances together and adding a vulgar heat? How much attention do you pay to temperature/time? You've obviously been at this a while, so maybe you could guide some of us about to start tripping on the rocks that when blended properly make interesting things.

From my processes with plants, I've learned how to detect problems with my nose. Certain spells pop up over and over again that seem (in my opinion) to show me that I'm on a wrong course, and I use those as a guide, but in general, it's take a common solvent of one type or another, reflux with a starting material until changes are noticed, and then watch them progress, trying to decide on the right time to pull out the "dross" and look through all the separated pieces for anything that stands out. Is your process similar?

You mentioned dry materials that do interesting things, are those your products or starting materials. What kind of temperature ranges do you test at? Is there an indicator that you fell tells you when it's too hot/too cold. How long do you let them bake together before expecting a change? Did you start with one substance and then find hints in the literature that led you to mix certain things together, or things of a certain kind? i.e. acid + dry matter + something else, etc?

I might be probing a little deep, but I'm interested in your experimental methods. It might give me some insight into other things I can try with my current methods.

Florius Frammel
01-18-2018, 03:24 PM
It looks to me that no one here has this emprical evidence.
You too are not showing any emprical facts, JDP. Although I think you are drawing logical conclusions, your approach and your research are maybe indeed going to the right direction but you can't demand believing your view when not showing any results. Of course it's your right not to, but don't expect anyone following your way when you are just claiming that you have seen interesting things during your doubtless well made researches.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 03:24 PM
Please, show verifiable evidence beyond quotes that such a matter exists already made somewhere in nature that can display everything that the alchemists describe?
how predictable, a deflection. unable to answer my questions so you deflect, with a childish attempt to turn the questions on me
and avoiding answering them yourself
if you cant provide empirical facts to refute the one matter approach
it remains your opinion
just like someone who cant provide empirical facts to confirm one matter approach
it remains an opinion
as you are clearly unable to answer my questions without deflecting
it remains your opinion


at least certainly more than you.
sure whatever you think


so you can prove without question its not one matter ?
please show your verifiable evidence beyond quotes ?
because if you cant
it remains your personal conjecture
lets try again
can you answer the questions without deflecting ?
again if you cant
it remains your personal conjecture

JDP
01-18-2018, 03:55 PM
how predictable, a deflection. unable to answer my questions so you deflect, with a childish attempt to turn the questions on me
and avoiding answering them yourself
if you cant provide empirical facts to refute the one matter approach
it remains your opinion
just like someone who cant provide empirical facts to confirm one matter approach
it remains an opinion
as you are clearly unable to answer my questions without deflecting
it remains your opinion


sure whatever you think


lets try again
can you answer the questions without deflecting ?
again if you cant
it remains your personal conjecture

Childish attempt to turn questions on you??? The burden of proof is on the claimant. You are the one who has to show where is this alleged evidence of "one matter" found in nature that can supposedly make the Stone all on its own, nothing else needed. I say there is no evidence it does exist already made somewhere in a natural setting, because if it really did
sooner or later many (and not just a few select people) would have found it and noted the existence of this remarkable substance. But you seem to claim there is such "evidence". So show me a single chymist or chemist who found any such natural matter that when submitted to heat treatments displays all the reactions the alchemists describe in their texts??? You are supposed to supply this "evidence" that it does exist, while I point out the lack of evidence that it does.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 04:08 PM
The burden of proof is on the claimant.
you made the claim

There is no such "one matter" found already made in nature that can do all the things the alchemists describe
or is that not a claim ? an assertion that this is true

you claimed ?? there is no such matter but offer only personal opinion to back it up
so where's your empirical proof to completely refute it ?
or are you gonna deflect the question and say Kibric
wheres your empirical proof to completely confirm it


I say there is no evidence it does exist already made somewhere in a natural setting, because if it really did
sooner or later many (and not just a few select people) would have found it and noted the existence of this remarkable substance
this is pure personal conjecture

JDP
01-18-2018, 04:24 PM
JDP,

I'm curious about your process more than your ingredients. It is pretty well a system of mixing some various substances together and adding a vulgar heat? How much attention do you pay to temperature/time? You've obviously been at this a while, so maybe you could guide some of us about to start tripping on the rocks that when blended properly make interesting things.

From my processes with plants, I've learned how to detect problems with my nose. Certain spells pop up over and over again that seem (in my opinion) to show me that I'm on a wrong course, and I use those as a guide, but in general, it's take a common solvent of one type or another, reflux with a starting material until changes are noticed, and then watch them progress, trying to decide on the right time to pull out the "dross" and look through all the separated pieces for anything that stands out. Is your process similar?

You mentioned dry materials that do interesting things, are those your products or starting materials. What kind of temperature ranges do you test at? Is there an indicator that you fell tells you when it's too hot/too cold. How long do you let them bake together before expecting a change? Did you start with one substance and then find hints in the literature that led you to mix certain things together, or things of a certain kind? i.e. acid + dry matter + something else, etc?

I might be probing a little deep, but I'm interested in your experimental methods. It might give me some insight into other things I can try with my current methods.

Proper "modus operandi" to investigate alchemy: mix a determinate number substances you suspect (from your readings of alchemical texts) might have to do with the subject; heat ("by degrees") inside convenient glass vessel; observe. Does what unfold match with anything the alchemists describe in their texts? Yes? Good, continue investigating such a mixture and its behavior & byproducts and see how far can you get! No? Discard and begin whole procedure anew with a whole new combination or a new variation on an already tried combination (specially if it already showed promise): mix, heat, observe... THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Forget "prayers", forget hoping for little "angels" to come down from "Heaven" one day to (oh, so conveniently!) hand you a "recipe" (just because of your pretty little face or because you have been a "good little boy"!), forget "psychic powers" to somehow force matter to obey your whim & fancy, forget single naturally-occurring matters on their own, forget everything but: get familiar with the alchemists' descriptions of what goes on inside their flasks, then MIX, HEAT, OBSERVE. They themselves discovered the whole thing that way (no matter how much some of them like to pretend that the "Almighty" Himself made special "revelations" to them and such empty grandiloquent boasts; the reality is that all of them figured out the subject by simple & persistent trial & error and process of elimination, just like every other discovery ever made by man.)

JDP
01-18-2018, 04:28 PM
you made the claim

or is that not a claim ? an assertion that this is true

you claimed there is no such matter
so where's your empirical proof to completely refute it ?
or are you gonna deflect the question and say Kibric
wheres your empirical proof to completely confirm it


this is pure personal conjecture

It's not "conjecture", it's just common sense and logic. Unless you actually believe that this elusive "one matter" likes to capriciously hide from most people, yet it magically reveals itself to those it deems "worthy"!!!

And I did provide the evidence for my statement: the lack of evidence that it does exist! Otherwise someone, after several hundred years of putting all manner of naturally occurring substances to the test, would have already found it and noted its existence. It is you who has to now provide the evidence that it does exist.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 04:39 PM
the lack of evidence that it does exist! Otherwise someone, after several hundred years of putting all manner of naturally occurring substances to the test, would have already found it and noted its existence
so your evidence is because no one has publicly discovered it
it does not exist...

Ok thats reasonable, but its not definite empirical proof it does not exist
its from your own experience as a seeker
thats really all my point is

another possibility is that it has been discovered but has been overlooked as mundane

JDP
01-18-2018, 04:45 PM
so your evidence is because no one has publicly discovered it
it does not exist...

Not the alchemists themselves, obviously, who if it did exist would indeed try to keep it a secret and not openly reveal it, but the ones who were not alchemists, but who also happen to have had the exact same natural substances at their disposal as the alchemists did. Why has no chymist or chemist ever recorded any single naturally-occurring substance (and these guys tested just about everything that would fall in their hands and described their properties and byproducts) that displays all the things the alchemists describe??? "Maybe", just "maybe", because the secret is in fact not to be found in one single substance alone, but in fact in a peculiar combination of several of them.

Kibric
01-18-2018, 04:48 PM
Maybe", just "maybe", because the secret is in fact not to be found in one single substance alone, but in fact in a peculiar combination of several of them
well i agree with the maybe LoL :)

Kiorionis
01-18-2018, 05:19 PM
Well it seems the side-discussion about the method of alchemy is over, so let’s get back on topic of The Secret Solvent ;)

Dwellings
01-18-2018, 06:05 PM
Yes, please let's all avoid such fallacies. They tend to disrupt/derail otherwise valuable discussions/exchanges.

I have personally not "discovered" a matter that's readily available in nature, that can be used to perform the entire work from beginning to end.

BUT - I am certainly not in a position to negate such thing, just because I (or others that I know of) haven't "found" it. That would be foolishly dogmatic on my part.

In my own work, it IS "one matter", but not something that can be found in nature readily available. It needs to be extracted/separated/corporified/etc... And then - it is very much physically tangible.

There exists such a matter that can perform the work from begining to end and readily available.

By following the evolution of substances in nature, it can be concluded that the "One Matter" must necessarily exist in "pure" form in the ground. Nature creates Gold and Silver in abundant quantities which means that the matter must have remained pure throughout the evolution. So there must exist a point where the matter has not reached mineral kingdom while at the same time is tangible and ready to be picked up somewhere in the ground. If we pickup this matter at that stage, we can perform the work from begining to end with minor difficulty.

Considering these factors and the constraints that various kingdoms imposes, it must be a mineral.

Andro
01-18-2018, 06:26 PM
There exists such a matter that can perform the work from beginning to end and readily available.

By following the evolution of substances in nature, it can be concluded that the "One Matter" must necessarily exist in "pure" form in the ground. Nature creates Gold and Silver in abundant quantities which means that the matter must have remained pure throughout the evolution. So there must exist a point where the matter has not reached mineral kingdom while at the same time is tangible and ready to be picked up somewhere in the ground. If we pickup this matter at that stage, we can perform the work from beginning to end with minor difficulty.

Considering these factors and the constraints that various kingdoms imposes, it must be a mineral.

Have you by any chance completed the work (a canonical stone) with this one matter ONLY? Or at least have good (experience-based) reason to think it can be done?

Are you sure there are no other "catalysts" involved? In the preparation? Later in the work?

There is one particular mineral matter hinted at - and even named - in some texts (including at least one of the 13 Secret Letters), so I think I know what you are referring to...

In the context of the 'Secret Solvent' - is this "solvent" present in the cooking? If yes, does it originate from the matter itself?

Dwellings
01-18-2018, 06:37 PM
Have you by any chance completed the work (a canonical stone) with this one matter ONLY? Or at least have good (experience-based) reason to think it can be done?

Are you sure there are no other "catalysts" involved? In the preparation? Later in the work?

There is one particular mineral matter hinted at - and even named - in some texts (including at least one of the 13 Secret Letters), so I think I know what you are referring to...

In the context of the 'Secret Solvent' - is this "solvent" present in the cooking? If yes, does it originate from the matter itself?

No, I do not have a lab, so no practical experience. My reasons are based on my understanding of natural philosophy.

No "catalysts" are used at any stage unless deliberately introduced to speed up things.

Yes, the "solvent" arises from the matter itself though calling it "solvent" is inappropriate.

We should not think in terms of solvent but in terms of "evolution", that would be more appropriate.

Hellin Hermetist
01-18-2018, 06:43 PM
No, I do not have a lab, so no practical experience. My reasons are based on my understanding of natural philosophy.

No "catalysts" are used at any stage unless deliberately introduced to speed up things.

Yes, the "solvent" arises from the matter itself though calling it "solvent" is inappropriate.

We should not think in terms of solvent but in terms of "evolution", that would be more appropriate.

You dont need a lab to perform an experiment so naive as the one you preach. Only an electric heater.

Dwellings
01-18-2018, 06:52 PM
You dont need a lab to perform an experiment so naive as the one you preach. Only an electric heater.

Now I understand....

Andro
01-18-2018, 07:01 PM
Now I understand....

But I don't understand.

If the work only requires a crucible, a heat source and the one matter, what is preventing you from commencing the Work?

Still, I prefer to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions. Perhaps some of the required utensils and/or the particular matter are difficult to come by in some areas?

True Initiate
01-18-2018, 07:31 PM
I can't resist but to include this quote from Walter Russell:

Transmutation can be accomplished easily with pulsing electrostatic and rotating magnetic fields. The idea that heat has to be applied as proposed in alchemy or as in other catalytic processes is now a Stone Age concept which should be abandoned as quickly as possible. To change one element from the table of elements into another element, is done without the usual approach that heat has to be applied. Think in dimensions and bear in mind that there is an Ether or counter world from which everything is controlled, make a change in the counter world (the mirror imagine) and you have an instant change in the physical world. Start thinking big, leave the old behind. This knowledge is most vital for our survival on this planet. How about changing radioactive materials into a usable gas, a liquid or a solid for a starter. How about changing atmospheric nitrogen into Hydrogen meaning that all propelling vehicles would need no more fossil fuel, would operate fuel–less and would never pollute again. Think of changing Silicon, an element of such abundance in our world into what? We let the readers think of the many possibilities of Transmutation by themselves and further more, we supply you with the know how of experimental Transmutation. Believe it or not, it’s done with magnetic fields.

JDP
01-19-2018, 06:46 AM
There exists such a matter that can perform the work from begining to end and readily available.

By following the evolution of substances in nature, it can be concluded that the "One Matter" must necessarily exist in "pure" form in the ground. Nature creates Gold and Silver in abundant quantities which means that the matter must have remained pure throughout the evolution. So there must exist a point where the matter has not reached mineral kingdom while at the same time is tangible and ready to be picked up somewhere in the ground. If we pickup this matter at that stage, we can perform the work from begining to end with minor difficulty.

Considering these factors and the constraints that various kingdoms imposes, it must be a mineral.

This entire premise rests on a HUGE theoretical/speculative ASSUMPTION of the alchemists: that nature supposedly makes these metals inside the "bowels of the earth". But what if "maybe", just "maybe", modern physicists are in fact correct and the way nature itself really makes these metals involves cosmic events that unleash massive amounts of energy, and which are only found inside stars, and certainly not inside relatively "cool" planets like Earth? Then what? Your suppositious "one matter only" proves to be nothing but a theoretical ghost, to be found nowhere but the realm of groundless speculation (which is what the lack of empirical evidence for the existence of one single natural matter that on its own can display all the reactions the alchemists describe already strongly suggests.)

Kiorionis
01-19-2018, 02:37 PM
Or, why not both? Cosmic elements produced quickly at high temperatures, and terrestrial elements slowly at lower temperatures?

Andro
01-20-2018, 08:47 AM
In Indian culture betel leaves and betel nuts have their own significance which will be obvious to any who look at the photos of the same.

http://kitairu.net/images/products/products_176860_bc187d63f2d3bfe0c560d1f255851f06.j peg

Those nuts seem indicative of the Marcasite/Pyrite family. Former forum member LeoRetilus discussed them extensively at some point, I believe.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/MarcasiteGeode.jpg/330px-MarcasiteGeode.jpg

If memory serves, Glauber even has a dedicated process with Marcasite nodules as attractive to vital humidity...

For anyone interested, just enter glauber marcasite in the forum's Google search bar.
___________________


Perhaps some of the required utensils and/or the particular matter are difficult to come by in some areas?
___________________


Although it turns out that finding a good local source of this magnet is not as easy as implied by our texts. It certainly isn’t always under our feet. After a fair amount of research, I appear to have found what appears to be an excellent source of plentiful quality marcasite, in northern New South Wales, some 800 miles away from where I live. I would imagine that the quality of the magnet nodules is paramount with the need for them to be unoxidized. It looks like a pilgrimage north may be my next move.

JDP
01-20-2018, 10:12 AM
Or, why not both? Cosmic elements produced quickly at high temperatures, and terrestrial elements slowly at lower temperatures?

Maybe because mineralogists, geologists and miners have been quite deep into the earth, much deeper than anyone at the times of the alchemists, and they have found no evidence whatsoever that our planet is actively "manufacturing" metals from scratch or from any mysterious "sulphur & mercury principles". All the deposits of metals and metallic ores/minerals are already there, they are not being "made" as we speak, they have been around for BILLIONS of years. But I tell you what is indeed possible, based on some "chymical" experiments: nature on/in our planet under certain conditions might be able to slowly/gradually transmute some already existing metals into other ones. For example: make gold from silver, or silver from lead. But it is not using any supposed "indeterminate" matter or any "sulphur & mercury principles" and making these metals from scratch. It might actually be using the already existing metals (which were originally made by cosmic events involving humongous amounts of energy not currently found anywhere in what became our planet) and turning them into some other ones. Of course, physicists and chemists reject this, unless "radioactivity" is involved, but then again they know NOTHING about the empirical reality of "chymical" transmutations.

Dragon's Tail
01-20-2018, 02:04 PM
Maybe because mineralogists, geologists and miners have been quite deep into the earth, much deeper than anyone at the times of the alchemists, and they have found no evidence whatsoever that our planet is actively "manufacturing" metals from scratch or from any mysterious "sulphur & mercury principles". All the deposits of metals and metallic ores/minerals are already there, they are not being "made" as we speak, they have been around for BILLIONS of years. But I tell you what is indeed possible, based on some "chymical" experiments: nature on/in our planet under certain conditions might be able to slowly/gradually transmute some already existing metals into other ones. For example: make gold from silver, or silver from lead. But it is not using any supposed "indeterminate" matter or any "sulphur & mercury principles" and making these metals from scratch. It might actually be using the already existing metals (which were originally made by cosmic events involving humongous amounts of energy not currently found anywhere in what became our planet) and turning them into some other ones. Of course, physicists and chemists reject this, unless "radioactivity" is involved, but then again they know NOTHING about the empirical reality of "chymical" transmutations.

There are still a few who investigate and question the stellar model of genesis for anything heavier than Fe. There's a lot of elements that by "rights" should not be fused in our current supernova model. Yet here they are, all over the place. And one has to wonder, after billions of years, what they are doing in the crust at all. Gold is heavy, why wasn't it absorbed into the core of the planet during fusion? Some metals for oxides and complexes, changing their nature, but gold in particular, and platinum as well, are pretty inert. Both super heavy, etc.

One explanation of this is meteor bombardment, erosion, settling, and fusion (via melting or pressing together into a vein), but a lot of Geologists even question this model. It's not a problem that the public is generally aware of, because it isn't compelling enough to make the news until someone makes a break-thru, but there is quite a bit of back and forth on the matter. Synthesis at "cold" temperatures (I.E. non-nuclear driven) has been discussed a lot, but no "scientist" has replicated it in a lab, and there isn't much funding for such experiments by comparison to say, jet engine tech. There are very few scientists that are aware of the problem, though it was discussed among my peers in the physics department several times while I was at school.

JDP
01-20-2018, 03:25 PM
There are still a few who investigate and question the stellar model of genesis for anything heavier than Fe. There's a lot of elements that by "rights" should not be fused in our current supernova model. Yet here they are, all over the place. And one has to wonder, after billions of years, what they are doing in the crust at all. Gold is heavy, why wasn't it absorbed into the core of the planet during fusion? Some metals for oxides and complexes, changing their nature, but gold in particular, and platinum as well, are pretty inert. Both super heavy, etc.

One explanation of this is meteor bombardment, erosion, settling, and fusion (via melting or pressing together into a vein), but a lot of Geologists even question this model. It's not a problem that the public is generally aware of, because it isn't compelling enough to make the news until someone makes a break-thru, but there is quite a bit of back and forth on the matter. Synthesis at "cold" temperatures (I.E. non-nuclear driven) has been discussed a lot, but no "scientist" has replicated it in a lab, and there isn't much funding for such experiments by comparison to say, jet engine tech. There are very few scientists that are aware of the problem, though it was discussed among my peers in the physics department several times while I was at school.

A very commonly held theory is that metals like gold and platinum got to our planet after its formation, through meteor bombardment.

Andro
01-20-2018, 03:39 PM
A very commonly held theory is that metals like gold and platinum got to our planet after its formation, through meteor bombardment.

I'm familiar with this theory. It is interesting, because, if correct, it would challenge the claims of alchemists that precious metals evolve in the "bowels of the earth".

But it's just a theory. Has anyone given a shot at 'proving' it yet?

JDP
01-20-2018, 03:46 PM
I'm familiar with this theory. It is interesting, because, if correct, it would challenge the claims of alchemists that precious metals evolve in the "bowels of the earth".

But it's just a theory. Has anyone given a shot at 'proving' it yet?

Some of the points summarized by Dragon's Tail do seem to support this theory. If these heavy metals got to Earth after it was already formed then it would explain why they did not just "sink" to the core and in fact remained closer to the surface.

Andro
01-20-2018, 04:05 PM
If these heavy metals got to Earth after it was already formed then it would explain why they did not just "sink" to the core and in fact remained closer to the surface.
Question:

How many other elements (non-precious) have also remained close to the surface?

Possibly related observation:

In the work with the Ph. Mercury (or "secret solvent") and metallic gold, at the end of the second rotation, the Ph. Sulfur rises to the surface/top*.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182)

* This is not only mentioned in literature (see below), but I have also personally witnessed this in the lab of a very esteemed colleague (who is not on this forum, or any forum that I know of).

Quoth ICH (end of the second rotation with metallic gold):

"The separatio puri ab impuri happens with our resolved Mercury, which is the acetum radicatum of the sages. By being poured onto the regenerated and lapidificated Gold it extracts its true Sulfur or Tincture, by which it will initially color itself quite red like a ruby, but later pulls itself from the solvent, so that it regains its previous color and the Sulfur is swimming on top of it as an Oil. This has within itself all three of the Principia of the Gold, and is the true aurum potabile, about whose wonderful power and workings in people and metals the philosophers have written."

Quoth Cyliani (also end of second rotation with gold):

"Then we go on to the separation of the pure from the impure parts of the matter. This is the last degree of regeneration, which terminates in the solution. To arrive at this point, after having well crushed the matter and having it in a subliming vase, as we have already said, of three or four fingers in height, thick as ordinary glass, some mercurial water is poured over it. This is our Azoth dissolved in the quantity of Astral Spirit which is necessary to it and as previously indicated by graduating its fire in such a manner as to maintain a temperate heat and giving it, at the last, a quantity of this matter. By this means we transmit all the spiritual part of this last into the water and the earthy part sinks to the bottom. The extract is now decanted and placed in ice in order that the oily quintessence comes together and floats to the top of the water like an oil. The remaining earth is thrown to the bottom as useless, because it was this that held the medicinal virtue of the gold imprisoned which means that it is of no value. This oil now floating on the top is separated with the help of the white feather of a pigeon that has been well washed and dampened and it is necessary to be careful not to lose any of it at all because it is the true quintessence of the regenerated common gold in which the three principles are reunited and can no longer be separated the one from the other."

---------------------------------------------------

Dragon's Tail
01-20-2018, 09:23 PM
Question:
How many other elements (non-precious) have also remained close to the surface?


In theory, anything heavier than Iron (atomically), so 2/3 of the periodic table, lol.

The biggest arguments that I've heard against the bombardment theory are these.
#1, the sheer amount of material that arrived after the cooling phase. One look at the moon though, and it's easy to see that there has been a lot of bombardment in our history.
#2 and much more crucial, this still doesn't explain how they were forged in the first place. Atoms heavier than iron prefer to split rather than fuse. This has something to do with the way we observe atomic nuclei acting (even though lighter elements like carbon and potassium still decay by shedding weight at "normal" temperatures and pressures). According to modern theory, stellar cores can't fuse past Iron, it is pretty much the end of the conventional process. The speculation is that because of the mass of giant stars and the amount of material, a certain percentage will collide just right to force them into fusion, but compared to what we observe on rocky bodies, the percentage seems rather high. Yet recovered meteorites yield lots of heavy elements.

I don't know as much about the geology side, but I know there have been lots of arguments over vein formations of metallic compounds. It seems only right to speculate that some other process, as yet "unknown," might be causing further fusion of heavy elements. This is why, unlike some of my contemporaries, I keep an open mind.

The process of supernova itself could be responsible, as stars begin oscillating toward the end of their life (believed) and that would lead to some wild variations in temperature and pressure. Stars definitely win when it comes to "fire" being applied to the material over a very long amount of time.

Andro
01-20-2018, 09:36 PM
unlike some of my contemporaries, I keep an open mind.

That's good to know, and quite refreshing as well :)

Thanks for the additional clarifications!

black
01-21-2018, 01:54 AM
Question:

How many other elements (non-precious) have also remained close to the surface?

Possibly related observation:

In the work with the Ph. Mercury (or "secret solvent") and metallic gold, at the end of the second rotation, the Ph. Sulfur rises to the surface/top*.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182)

* This is not only mentioned in literature (see below), but I have also personally witnessed this in the lab of a very esteemed colleague (who is not on this forum, or any forum that I know of).

Quoth ICH (end of the second rotation with metallic gold):

"The separatio puri ab impuri happens with our resolved Mercury, which is the acetum radicatum of the sages. By being poured onto the regenerated and lapidificated Gold it extracts its true Sulfur or Tincture, by which it will initially color itself quite red like a ruby, but later pulls itself from the solvent, so that it regains its previous color and the Sulfur is swimming on top of it as an Oil. This has within itself all three of the Principia of the Gold, and is the true aurum potabile, about whose wonderful power and workings in people and metals the philosophers have written."

Quoth Cyliani (also end of second rotation with gold):

"Then we go on to the separation of the pure from the impure parts of the matter. This is the last degree of regeneration, which terminates in the solution. To arrive at this point, after having well crushed the matter and having it in a subliming vase, as we have already said, of three or four fingers in height, thick as ordinary glass, some mercurial water is poured over it. This is our Azoth dissolved in the quantity of Astral Spirit which is necessary to it and as previously indicated by graduating its fire in such a manner as to maintain a temperate heat and giving it, at the last, a quantity of this matter. By this means we transmit all the spiritual part of this last into the water and the earthy part sinks to the bottom. The extract is now decanted and placed in ice in order that the oily quintessence comes together and floats to the top of the water like an oil. The remaining earth is thrown to the bottom as useless, because it was this that held the medicinal virtue of the gold imprisoned which means that it is of no value. This oil now floating on the top is separated with the help of the white feather of a pigeon that has been well washed and dampened and it is necessary to be careful not to lose any of it at all because it is the true quintessence of the regenerated common gold in which the three principles are reunited and can no longer be separated the one from the other."

---------------------------------------------------



It's so very interesting what these secret solvents can effect.

Here is a similar quote from Basil Valentine writing about an oil extracted from the liver of antimony.

Put this Liver dried into a Cucurbit, pour thereon most pure Spirit of Wine; abstract the Spirit by distilling in B.M. so that a third part only may remain.
But before Distillation, the Spirit of Wine together with the Extraction must be filtered through Paper.
This Extraction may indeed be profitably used; but in a small Dose, and with great Caution.
What happens in this Operation is very admirable.
For the Spirit of Wine abstracted, can no more be united with the red Extraction, whence it was distilled; but one floats above the other, as Water and Oyl, which cannot be mixed.
But if the abstracted Spirit of Wine be poured upon other Liver of Antimony, it again attracts the Colour to itself; yet this, although poured upon the former Extraction, cannot be mixed therewith.

Which is a Thing so strange, as it may be numbered among Wonders.
But who can declare the Wonders of GOD? or who will worthily esteem the Gifts of the Creator, which he hath implanted in his Creatures? by us scarcely perscrutable with deep Meditation.

elixirmixer
01-21-2018, 02:33 AM
So this secret solvent is a preparation created from pure SM.

May we please discuss the application of processes that lead us to a usable and effective solvent?

It would seem to me at this current point that vulgar gold can be used to fix SM and volatize the gold.

However, it also seems evident that SM in its infancy does not cause a red glass as would be profitable, but instead, requires self-evolution prior to introduction to the metallic realm.

No one here had ever really mentioned the application of this self feedback mechanism in regards to how it evolved our solvent.

Shall we?

PS: most minerals GROW. You know that. Plants grow, animals grow, humans, minerals, wrther systems, ocean currents.... Why (the fuck) would we consider metals to be any different?

Consider how much "precious metal bombardment" would be required to provide the two Olympic sized swimming pools worth of gold we have mined all over the earth. Such consistent, repeated bombardment, would have additional evidence, rather than just "a potential explanation for the conglomerate of metals on Earth"

Where are these gold bearing asteroids? Any in the museum? Can't say I've researched it too deeply, but I don't remember anyone suggesting high precious metal bearing asteroids during geology 101 or astronomy 101. Since this would be HUGE evidence to back up NASA's BS, you'd think they would advertise it, however, we simply don't have asteroids made of gold and irirdium dropping out of the sky. Simple. IMHO.

Gold tends to grow in pyrite bearing quartz for some reason. Consider that next time you try working on a transmutation. Till next time. EM

Kiorionis
01-21-2018, 02:56 AM
No one here had ever really mentioned the application of this self feedback mechanism in regards to how it evolved our solvent.

Shall we?

Of course we shall ;)

If we consider the human digestion as a Solvent, not a universal or secret Solvent, but as a particular solvent of the vegetable kingdom, we find that when there is a lack of digestive fire, there is also a lack of vitality in the organism. Physiology is not provided for on account of the inability to digest and assimilate foodstuff.

Now is the interesting bit. One of the best ways to increase the digestive fire is to stop eating. Which is surprisingly contradictory. This changes the metabolism and physiologic function of the digestive tract into a sort of ‘auto-feedback’ system. Periodically the stomach will produce gastric acid and other juices in order to digest food. When no food is available, the stomach reabsorbs the gastric acid and uses it for some other purpose (which I think was brought up on the fasting thread). Typically, it’s used to rejuvenate the body.

So, taking this as an analogy, how does the solvent evolve? All created things must necessarily have a source. The source sustains them. And when we consider an auto-feedback mechanism as both food as well as that-which-digests-good, the I think (at least for me) we get close to an answer.

But, this view is open to criticism, as always.

JDP
01-21-2018, 09:27 AM
So this secret solvent is a preparation created from pure SM.

"Ignotum per ignotius"? Hmm, no thanks! I will pass (at least until someone actually offers proof that "SM" actually does exist and is not merely a theoretical musing of some people from past centuries) and stick to much more realistic probabilities, like simply being a byproduct of reactions little or totally unknown to ordinary chemistry, and which any experienced person knows very well they do exist (anyone acquainted with "chymistry" and its methods ought to know that chemistry most certainly does NOT know it "all" when it comes to the interaction between many substances and what byproducts are obtained from them; note this well, as it opens a whole world of possibilities for alchemy, properly, being very real as well.)


PS: most minerals GROW. You know that. Plants grow, animals grow, humans, minerals, wrther systems, ocean currents.... Why (the fuck) would we consider metals to be any different?

Maybe because there is no evidence to support such ideas. Minerals & metals do not "grow" and/or "reproduce", at least not in the same "organic" sense that animals and plants do. This was recognized by many alchemists and "chymists" too.


Consider how much "precious metal bombardment" would be required to provide the two Olympic sized swimming pools worth of gold we have mined all over the earth. Such consistent, repeated bombardment, would have additional evidence, rather than just "a potential explanation for the conglomerate of metals on Earth"

We are not talking about just a trifle here, but MILLIONS of years worth of bombardments! So of course that tons and tons of substances foreign to the "original" Earth could have entered this way. It is a very possible explanation.


Where are these gold bearing asteroids? Any in the museum? Can't say I've researched it too deeply, but I don't remember anyone suggesting high precious metal bearing asteroids during geology 101 or astronomy 101. Since this would be HUGE evidence to back up NASA's BS, you'd think they would advertise it, however, we simply don't have asteroids made of gold and irirdium dropping out of the sky. Simple. IMHO.

They still exist today, just like they did back then:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/nasa-announces-2022-mission-to-explore-metal-asteroid-so-valuable-it-could-crash-the-world-economy/news-story/5e0fbb77dc43d304a92f1540cba84c0f

http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/metal.htm

JDP
01-21-2018, 09:45 AM
Question:

How many other elements (non-precious) have also remained close to the surface?

Possibly related observation:

In the work with the Ph. Mercury (or "secret solvent") and metallic gold, at the end of the second rotation, the Ph. Sulfur rises to the surface/top*.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbFQEcpJ3A&feature=youtu.be&t=182)

* This is not only mentioned in literature (see below), but I have also personally witnessed this in the lab of a very esteemed colleague (who is not on this forum, or any forum that I know of).

Quoth ICH (end of the second rotation with metallic gold):

"The separatio puri ab impuri happens with our resolved Mercury, which is the acetum radicatum of the sages. By being poured onto the regenerated and lapidificated Gold it extracts its true Sulfur or Tincture, by which it will initially color itself quite red like a ruby, but later pulls itself from the solvent, so that it regains its previous color and the Sulfur is swimming on top of it as an Oil. This has within itself all three of the Principia of the Gold, and is the true aurum potabile, about whose wonderful power and workings in people and metals the philosophers have written."

Quoth Cyliani (also end of second rotation with gold):

"Then we go on to the separation of the pure from the impure parts of the matter. This is the last degree of regeneration, which terminates in the solution. To arrive at this point, after having well crushed the matter and having it in a subliming vase, as we have already said, of three or four fingers in height, thick as ordinary glass, some mercurial water is poured over it. This is our Azoth dissolved in the quantity of Astral Spirit which is necessary to it and as previously indicated by graduating its fire in such a manner as to maintain a temperate heat and giving it, at the last, a quantity of this matter. By this means we transmit all the spiritual part of this last into the water and the earthy part sinks to the bottom. The extract is now decanted and placed in ice in order that the oily quintessence comes together and floats to the top of the water like an oil. The remaining earth is thrown to the bottom as useless, because it was this that held the medicinal virtue of the gold imprisoned which means that it is of no value. This oil now floating on the top is separated with the help of the white feather of a pigeon that has been well washed and dampened and it is necessary to be careful not to lose any of it at all because it is the true quintessence of the regenerated common gold in which the three principles are reunited and can no longer be separated the one from the other."

---------------------------------------------------


In the case you are describing the gold has been altered, though, it is no longer in its metallic state. We don't need more "arcane" examples taken from the methods of "chymistry" or alchemy to illustrate this possibility. Some operations known even to ordinary chemistry as well will show that a dense metal like gold can "swim" to the surface when it is not in its metallic state: dissolve gold in aqua regia, then add an essential oil (like rosemary oil) to the solution and shake the mixture several times. The gold salt will gradually "leave" the acid liquor and be absorbed by the floating oil.

Andro
01-21-2018, 09:51 AM
In the case you are describing the gold has been altered, though, it is no longer in its metallic state.

Correct. Also at the end of the canonical color sequence.


Some operations known even to ordinary chemistry as well will show that a dense metal like gold can "swim" to the surface when it is not in its metallic state: dissolve gold in aqua regia, then add an essential oil (like rosemary oil) to the solution and shake the mixture several times. The gold salt will gradually "leave" the acid liquor and be absorbed by the floating oil.

No AR or essential oils were involved.

It is the "solvent" discussed on this thread that I am talking about.

Although it has properties that are in all likelihood specific only to it, it can be "made" in different ways, and it can also vary in potency, depending on the method of production and other factors.


So this secret solvent is a preparation created from pure SM.

For the record, I never said what it was or wasn't 'created' from.

Also, this is not my own work, just something I have been fortunate enough to witness directly.

Also: The completion of the second rotation is the farthest that I have ever witnessed to date.

I am personally not "there" yet, because I have opted for a different method of production, which comes with its own set of complexities and challenges, but has the potential to give a higher quality product.

elixirmixer
01-21-2018, 09:20 PM
So, for those of us who are deeply confused about SM due to a lack of experience... What are the physical property differences between SM and our secret solvent? What are the "tests" for each? What are the "signs" that differentiate these two?

Illen A. Cluf
01-21-2018, 10:21 PM
So, for those of us who are deeply confused about SM due to a lack of experience... What are the physical property differences between SM and our secret solvent? What are the "tests" for each? What are the "signs" that differentiate these two?

I'm curious (seriously). Do you really think there is anyone on this forum qualified enough to answer this excellent question?

(I wait in anticipation from the regular attacks from the "puffed up" pretenders LOL).

Andro
01-21-2018, 10:57 PM
That's what I could find:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2123-Alchemists-sure-are-pale!&p=14256#post14256

Andro
01-21-2018, 11:10 PM
We can also go to the texts in the ICH/Cyliani/Recreations lineage and note the differences between the "Astral Spirit" and the "Philosophical Mercury" (end of first rotation).

Illen A. Cluf
01-21-2018, 11:15 PM
We can also go to the texts in the ICH/Cyliani/Recreations lineage and note the differences between the "Astral Spirit" and the "Philosophical Mercury" (end of first rotation).

Great responses, Andro! I believe that we can also read "The Only True Way" for possible clues.

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/trueway.html

JDP
01-22-2018, 01:53 PM
So, for those of us who are deeply confused about SM due to a lack of experience... What are the physical property differences between SM and our secret solvent? What are the "tests" for each? What are the "signs" that differentiate these two?

Difficult to give a single answer in the case of "SM" because this theoretical idea is rather vague and often contradictory according to each author's fancy regarding what this ill-defined "thing" was supposed to be. Glauber, for example, seems to understand nothing other than what can be attributed to the invisible gas that later would be called "dephlogisticated air", and still later "oxygen". This is the "Universal Spirit" according to Glauber, who envisioned it as some sort of "salt" principle somehow floating around in the air and "fixing" itself in many substances (Glauber came close but would not be the true discoverer of oxygen largely because this pesky "Spiritus Mundi" theoretical notion prevented him, as well as many other "chymists", from more properly understanding what was really going on behind their empirical observations of phenomena where this gas was involved, just like the equally pesky "phlogiston" theory in the next century prevented still many others from truly discovering this invisible gas.)

As for the secret solvent, its characteristics have already been summarized, but here they go again:

1- It can present itself in liquid, solid and semi-solid/liquid (i.e. waxy/buttery/fatty/unctuous/oily) forms (it depends on the method of preparation and the substances employed)

2- It is relatively volatile, but it eventually "coagulates" or "fixes" itself with the metallic/mineral matter (usually labelled as "sulphur", "soul" or "tincture") it dissolves

3- Once it does that, it becomes permanently joined with those metallic/mineral matters it dissolved (i.e. it no longer separates from them) and forms whole new substances (i.e. the alchemical "tinctures", which vary in properties and power depending on some factors, like the metallic "sulphurs/souls/tinctures" used for their preparation), different from both "parents" (viz. the secret solvent & the dissolved metallic/mineral matter)

elixirmixer
01-23-2018, 03:10 AM
So... What exactly is the purpose of the secret solvent?

In my eyes, it seems that it cannot be based on "gently and lovingly dissolving gold" because that is a fairytale explanation.

What seems to be the glorying factor, is if this solvent volatilized the gold.

The volitalization of salts is one of the key characteristics found in our child. And the sulfur of gold must undergo rotation is being volatized.

So if I were looking at this from a purely empirical perspective and was going to continuously try repetitious experiments, I would be looking for matters that volatize other metals, and then simply charge them in an or gone generator for more effective volatization potential.

Ghislain
01-23-2018, 05:02 AM
You don't get much more volatile than when you fulminate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulminating_gold#History) gold.

Ghislain

black
01-23-2018, 09:46 AM
So, for those of us who are deeply confused about SM due to a lack of experience... What are the physical property differences between SM and our secret solvent? What are the "tests" for each? What are the "signs" that differentiate these two?


I found this Q/A in a Paracelsus Research Society, Lab Bulletin Extracts.
I presume the answer came from Frater Albertus.
The Secret Solvent is not mentioned but it may be of some assistance.

QUESTION NO. 31..... Is spiritus mundi and the Universal Spirit the same?

Answer: ..... No. Spiritus mundi refers to the spirit of the earth, while the Universal Spirit is the Universal Life permeating everything, of which the earth represents but a segment thereof. The sum total of all life found within and upon the earth is the spiritus mundi.

JDP
01-23-2018, 12:50 PM
So... What exactly is the purpose of the secret solvent?

To "extract" a certain portion (i.e. the alleged "sulfureous" part, according to alchemical theory) of their mass which will join and "coagulate" the secret solvent into a "tincture".


In my eyes, it seems that it cannot be based on "gently and lovingly dissolving gold" because that is a fairytale explanation.

The reason why that by itself would be a "fairy tale" is because that can be achieved with other solvents, even with totally common ones. Aqua regia itself, the most common solvent for gold, does not act violently, it "quietly" and gradually dissolves gold. So that by itself is not enough to establish what the secret solvent should be.


What seems to be the glorying factor, is if this solvent volatilized the gold.

The volitalization of salts is one of the key characteristics found in our child. And the sulfur of gold must undergo rotation is being volatized.

So if I were looking at this from a purely empirical perspective and was going to continuously try repetitious experiments, I would be looking for matters that volatize other metals, and then simply charge them in an or gone generator for more effective volatization potential.

But that by itself is also not sufficient. Other solvents, even some very common ones, can achieve that too. For example, the author of one of the 17th century commentaries on Basil Valentine's "Keys" volatilized gold simply by repeated distillations and cohobations with aqua regia (the empirical reality of what he describes has been recently confirmed by professor Lawrence Principe, who was able to replicate the results and volatilized the gold salt; consult his "The Secrets of Alchemy", the chapter he devotes to Basil Valentine.)

The secret solvent does quite more than this. Those other solvents are NOT able to remain PERMANENTLY joined to the dissolved metals. You can always separate them. Even as far back as the times of Thomas Norton (15th century), when the mineral-based acids had already become very popular among the "puffers" and "multipliers", it was already pointed out that such "corrosive waters" would NOT remain permanently in union with the dissolved metals, unlike the alchemical solvent, and that the metals could be recovered INTACT (both in nature and weight) from them:

"But Metal holds his whole Composition,
When corrosive waters have made dissolution,
Therefore nothing is nearer to simplicity,
Than is Metal, and may it not increased be,
Truly you may trust as I said before,
How of one ounce of Silver, may Silver be no more,
Also nothing multiplied shall you find,
But in Vegetative or of Sensitive kind:
Whereas Metals be only Elementative,
Having no seed, neither feeling of life;
Wherefore concluding all Multipliers must cease,
For Metals once Metals shall no more increase;"

Thomas Norton's "Ordinal of Alchemy", Chapter I; page 20 of Elias Ashmole's "Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum":

https://archive.org/stream/theatrumchemicum00ashm#page/20/mode/2up

Note: but who were these medieval "multipliers" that Norton (and Chaucer, and Ripley) attacks so much? They were proto-chymists, a peculiar kind of "puffers" whose main objective was to "multiply" (i.e. increase in weight/mass) silver (at the expense of a cheaper base metal, typically copper) and gold (at the expense of the "less noble" metal silver, which is the metal closest to gold.) Norton, like a typical alchemist, is vehemently opposed to admitting that transmutation can take place WITHOUT the Stone, so any "Stone-less" attempt at transmutation in the mind of most alchemists was synonymous with charlatanry and fraud, so they rejected such processes as "sophistical" and "false". Unfortunately for them, "chymical" transmutations are VERY REAL as well, and they do NOT use the Stone. So Norton's attacks are in fact only justified regarding alchemy itself (i.e. the making of the Stone, where a special peculiar secret solvent is required), but NOT justified for the methods of "chymistry".

Also, contrary to what Norton thinks, the "multipliers" usually only used "corrosive waters" as a means for preparing some substances (like some metallic salts) and for separating gold from silver, not as their main operation. Their techniques heavily relied rather on CEMENTATIONS of some alloys (you will find many such processes in the old "puffer" collections of "recipes", under such names as "Pars Cum Parte...", "Augmentum...", etc. Warning: a LOT of them are TOTALLY PHONY; relatively few of them give positive results.) The "multipliers" were not as naive as Norton thinks! They did not expect that a simple solution in an acid liquor would be enough to "multiply" silver or gold. Their processes were quite more complex.

JDP
01-23-2018, 12:52 PM
You don't get much more volatile than when you fulminate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulminating_gold#History) gold.

Ghislain

That goes quite beyond just "volatile"! That compound is EXPLOSIVE, and quite dangerous due to its sensitivity. Not recommended at all to tinker with it. People have lost fingers & eyes toying around with such sensitive fulminating compounds.

z0 K
01-23-2018, 07:15 PM
Difficult to give a single answer in the case of "SM" because this theoretical idea is rather vague and often contradictory according to each author's fancy regarding what this ill-defined "thing" was supposed to be. Glauber, for example, seems to understand nothing other than what can be attributed to the invisible gas that later would be called "dephlogisticated air", and still later "oxygen". This is the "Universal Spirit" according to Glauber, who envisioned it as some sort of "salt" principle somehow floating around in the air and "fixing" itself in many substances (Glauber came close but would not be the true discoverer of oxygen largely because this pesky "Spiritus Mundi" theoretical notion prevented him, as well as many other "chymists", from more properly understanding what was really going on behind their empirical observations of phenomena where this gas was involved, just like the equally pesky "phlogiston" theory in the next century prevented still many others from truly discovering this invisible gas.)

Spiritus Mundi is not a gas but gas has the Spirit in it. Spiritus Mundi is the Spirit of the Universe not just the Earth. It is in everything that exists along with Anima Mundi. This Spirit and Soul cannot be separated any more than you can separate the Yin from the Yang. This Soul/Spirit is pure information expressed as or in a body of matter. The matter can be abstract or concrete. All we can manipulate is the matters. We can manipulate the matters because we are Soul/Spirit expressed as a body of matters each of us. This Soul/Spirit is Philosophical Mercury and the body of matters is Philosophical Sulfur.


As for the secret solvent, its characteristics have already been summarized, but here they go again:

1- It can present itself in liquid, solid and semi-solid/liquid (i.e. waxy/buttery/fatty/unctuous/oily) forms (it depends on the method of preparation and the substances employed)

The Secret Solvent is three things in one that cannot be completely separated even though it appears that you have separated out three things from the crude matter or menstruum.

"Previously, I told you that these three spirits which escape invisibly during putrefaction are so subtle, that they cannot be fixed. Whereupon I immediately said: They can nevertheless be fixed together with the coarse part of the earth when the same has been rendered subtle by a Master who is skillful in the Work. And with this Salt, which is a medium between these coarse, fixed parts of the earth and the three volatile spirits, these Spirits are like unto the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, being one, yet three persons, and one not being without the others. Which is why they are the life and soul of all created things. The Quintessence." -- Hollandus

Watery, buttery, oily and unctuous describes differing ratios of the three-in-one purified and then joined into Philosophical Mercury or Argent Vive.


2- It is relatively volatile, but it eventually "coagulates" or "fixes" itself with the metallic/mineral matter (usually labelled as "sulphur", "soul" or "tincture") it dissolves

It does not exist until born from the burnt corpus containing the Elements of a previous life.

"But those who do not know this Salt, they will never achieve anything in the Art. Philosophers have called this Salt a dry water and a lively salt. But the ignorant thought they meant Mercury thereby. They also named it an ensouled Salt and concealed its name. They also called the 3 spirits Mercury and gave Earth the name of Sulphur which the ignorant also did not understand. Now one cannot be without the other and there is no created thing in the world wherein these are not all together, yet so intertwined with the 4 elements that they form one lump [massa] or body [corpus]. --Hollandus"


3- Once it does that, it becomes permanently joined with those metallic/mineral matters it dissolved (i.e. it no longer separates from them) and forms whole new substances (i.e. the alchemical "tinctures", which vary in properties and power depending on some factors, like the metallic "sulphurs/souls/tinctures" used for their preparation), different from both "parents" (viz. the secret solvent & the dissolved metallic/mineral matter)

"Now I will teach my child the foremost and principal factor of the Vegetable-work, which is the first beginning of the Vegetabilia, since among all growing things there is nothing nobler nor subtler, and under this stands all those from which the Quinta Essentia goes over first. Its name is the noble Vine. Under this is also understood wheat and all grains, all fruit of trees, and everything wherefrom the Qu. Ess. goes over first. I will therefore instruct my child how to make the Vegetable-Stone, which stone surpasses the Mineral- and also the Animal-Stone because it gives life to the mineral and also the animal stone, and it is not corrosive like the other two stones. And the gold made of it is not corrosive like the gold that comes from the other two stones. That is the reason why it is the supreme medicine of human life, driving away in a short time all sicknesses that may befall man, of which instruction will be given later on. These are the reasons why it is more secret, than either of the other two stones. It is also easier to produce and requires less time and costs. Therefore, it is more secret than the other two stones are. --Hollandus

black
01-23-2018, 10:15 PM
Hi z0 K

This Vegetable Stone sounds very important for the evolution
of the alchemist.

Do you believe we need the Secret Solvent to prepare it ?

z0 K
01-23-2018, 11:19 PM
Hi z0 K

This Vegetable Stone sounds very important for the evolution
of the alchemist.

Do you believe we need the Secret Solvent to prepare it ?

You cannot make the Vegetable Stone without the Secret Solvent which is necessary to make the alchemical Stones. People make spagyric stones without the Secret Solvent.

Kiorionis
01-25-2018, 03:50 PM
Fire penetrates Air, Water and Earth. Water penetrates Air and Earth. Air coagulates Fire, Water and Earth. Earth coagulates Fire and Water.

Thanks, this may have cleared up some of my operational issues.

Schmuldvich
01-26-2018, 03:20 PM
So... What exactly is the purpose of the secret solvent?

https://archive.org/details/newmethodofchemi01boer
Read every word. All your questions are answered in the following passages and throughout his whole book. There is no more lucid description out there.

(Much of what is said goes against what JDP thinks and is in line with that I was saying in my original post)


https://i.imgur.com/QeykbZR.png
https://i.imgur.com/R0izqkY.png
https://i.imgur.com/arPCqZr.png
https://i.imgur.com/epOqeqt.png
https://i.imgur.com/02eQ5xd.png
https://i.imgur.com/IIQuZWU.png
https://i.imgur.com/Zk0g9fV.png
https://i.imgur.com/4iSanRe.png
https://i.imgur.com/tlrw43p.png

JDP
01-26-2018, 08:04 PM
https://archive.org/details/newmethodofchemi01boer
Read every word. All your questions are answered in the following passages and throughout his whole book. There is no more lucid description out there.

(Much of what is said goes against what JDP thinks and is in line with that I was saying in my original post)


https://i.imgur.com/QeykbZR.png
https://i.imgur.com/R0izqkY.png
https://i.imgur.com/arPCqZr.png
https://i.imgur.com/epOqeqt.png
https://i.imgur.com/02eQ5xd.png
https://i.imgur.com/IIQuZWU.png
https://i.imgur.com/Zk0g9fV.png
https://i.imgur.com/4iSanRe.png
https://i.imgur.com/tlrw43p.png

The above is a description of the claims regarding the "alkahest", which is an invention of Van Helmont, a chymist who did NOT know how to make the Stone. Helmont was acquainted with the reality of alchemy thanks to a friend who DONATED some samples of the Stone to him, with which Van Helmont several times transmuted mercury into gold, and he makes no secret about it and says he was forced to accept the reality of the Stone thanks to this DONATION from someone who had access to the finished product:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/helmont.html

That by itself should already have given you a hint that Helmont wasn't really an "alchemist" and his claims are not about the secret solvent of the alchemists, which properties are quite the opposite of this "alkahest". Why exactly so many writers from the 17th-18th century confused Van Helmont as some sort of "adept" and thought that he knew how to make the secret solvent and the Stone is one of those bizarre cases that simply defies logic and common sense. Many people are just lousy readers and even lousier critical thinkers and can't tell things apart very well.

Schmuldvich
01-26-2018, 08:32 PM
The above is a description of the claims regarding the "alkahest", which is an invention of Van Helmont, a chymist who did NOT know how to make the Stone. Helmont was acquainted with the reality of alchemy thanks to a friend who DONATED some samples of the Stone to him, with which Van Helmont several times transmuted mercury into gold, and he makes no secret about it and says he was forced to accept the reality of the Stone thanks to this DONATION from someone who had access to the finished product: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/helmont.html That by itself should already have given you a hint that Helmont wasn't really an "alchemist" and his claims are not about the secret solvent of the alchemists, which properties are quite the opposite of this "alkahest". Why exactly so many writers from the 17th-18th century confused Van Helmont as some sort of "adept" and thought that he knew how to make the secret solvent and the Stone is one of those bizarre cases that simply defies logic and common sense. Many people are just lousy readers and even lousier critical thinkers and can't tell things apart very well.

JDP,

As far as you or I know, no one has made the Stone/completed our Magnum Opus.

Also as far as you or I know, no one is in possession of our Universal Solvent.

In my post above I am not alluding to the fact the Boerhaave has either of these things, or that Paracelsus or van Helmont knew what they were talking about.

I am simply passing along information. The messenger is not important to me as long as the information is, according to my discernment, sound and correct.

If Hitler, Elixirmixir, or Bill Clinton said exactly what Boerhaave said above, I would post that. Accurate Hermetic Philosophy is what I discern to be Truth. The messenger is irrelevant.


Andro summed it up well:



And thank YOU for the kind feedback - although the messenger is not important...

I'm just trying to pass on what I have learned and discovered, to the best of my current abilities.

I believe that as long as the focus is on Principles rather than 'recipes' (most people apparently want 'recipes' :)) - the knowledge protects itself.

This is pretty much all I have to say on this topic.

Quoting from the movie 'Stigmata':


Il messaggero non è importante. (The messenger is not important)

Ghislain
01-26-2018, 08:44 PM
In Schmuldvich's OP text the author states,

"As I myself do not posses the secret, all that I can do is only, by a strict examination,
and exact comparison of these writers, clearly to explain the matter, so far as I could
discover it in them; for if they knew such a thing, and designed that a careful reader
should find it in their writings, I cannot think of a better way than this for coming at it".

Writers plural; I do not know who wrote this, but, even though it mentions Helmont, it would appear their knowledge does not come from one source alone.

Ghislain

Ghislain
01-26-2018, 08:47 PM
I didn't see the link in the OP.

The writing is of a Dr. Herman Boerhaave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Boerhaave)

Ghislain

Kibric
01-27-2018, 04:34 AM
If Hitler, Elixirmixir, or Bill Clinton said exactly what Boerhaave said above, I would post that. Accurate Hermetic Philosophy is what I discern to be Truth
strange you'd mention Elixirmixer with those two examples:eek:
is there something your not telling us
do you know something about Elixirmixer we all should know ?


This liquor only, can dissolve all solids into their first matter, without any diminution or alteration in itself


Aukanaw, an Argentine anthropologist of Mapuche origin, who died in 1994, related a tradition about a species of woodpecker known locally by such names as pitiwe, pite, and pitio; its scientific name is probably Colaptes pitius (Chilean fli...cker), which is found in Chile and Argentina, or Colaptes rupicola (Andean flicker), which is found in southern Ecuador, Peru, western Bolivia, and northern Argentina and Chile. If someone blocks the entrance to its nest with a piece of rock or iron it will fetch a rare plant, known as pito or pitu, and rub it against the obstacle, causing it to become weaker or dissolve. In Peru, above 4500 m, there is said to be a plant called kechuca which turns stone to jelly, and which the jakkacllopito bird uses to make its nest. A plant with similar properties that grows at even higher altitudes is known, among other things, as punco-punco; this may be Ephedra andina, which the Mapuche consider a medicinal plant.
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?8,989085,989085

Plants which display similar properties likely have something in common with " This liquor "

Dragon's Tail
01-27-2018, 05:40 AM
strange you'd mention Elixirmixer with those two examples:eek:
is there something your not telling us
do you know something about Elixirmixer we all should know ?




http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?8,989085,989085

Plants which display similar properties likely have something in common with " This liquor "

Chelation is what I came up with with a brief search, funny enough, that led me to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation
And in reading through it, I can't help but think about a certain "green dragon" that has the potential to devour metals found in our plants. I haven't checked if it will eat gold yet.

JDP
01-27-2018, 04:13 PM
In Schmuldvich's OP text the author states,

"As I myself do not posses the secret, all that I can do is only, by a strict examination,
and exact comparison of these writers, clearly to explain the matter, so far as I could
discover it in them; for if they knew such a thing, and designed that a careful reader
should find it in their writings, I cannot think of a better way than this for coming at it".

Writers plural; I do not know who wrote this, but, even though it mentions Helmont, it would appear their knowledge does not come from one source alone.

Ghislain

That would be Helmont, his followers (the "Helmontians") as well as some chymists who did not delve deeper into these subjects and did not learn to distinguish between the secret solvent of the alchemists (which permanently joins the metallic matters it dissolves, "coagulates" with them and forms entirely new substances different from both "parents") and Helmont's "alkahest" (which, quite the opposite, does not join with anything, and always supposedly remains the same as it was before, no matter how many times it performs the solution and supposed "reduction" of everything it comes in contact with to what Helmont envisioned as the primordial element: "water".)

JDP
01-27-2018, 04:21 PM
JDP,

As far as you or I know, no one has made the Stone/completed our Magnum Opus.

Also as far as you or I know, no one is in possession of our Universal Solvent.

In my post above I am not alluding to the fact the Boerhaave has either of these things, or that Paracelsus or van Helmont knew what they were talking about.

I am simply passing along information. The messenger is not important to me as long as the information is, according to my discernment, sound and correct.

If Hitler, Elixirmixir, or Bill Clinton said exactly what Boerhaave said above, I would post that. Accurate Hermetic Philosophy is what I discern to be Truth. The messenger is irrelevant.


Andro summed it up well:





Here it doesn't matter whether you, I, or anyone else knows the secret of preparing the solvent of alchemy. The problem is that the "source" in this case was NOT an alchemist or "adept", and he actually NEVER claimed he knew how to make the Stone or the secret solvent required to prepare it. When it comes to this topic of a special solvent, Helmont made claims that are very peculiar to his own doctrines, not those of the alchemists properly. So these later "messengers" here are mistakenly taking the "source" as something which Helmont himself never even pretended he was in the first place!

Andro
01-27-2018, 04:54 PM
If only we would be able to see/grok the "pair" of "Heaven & Earth" or "Nitre & (Central) Salt", our lives would probably be so much easier :)

I see the "marriage"/consummation/interaction between those two as a major key to the topic of this thread.

It is also the unified "Materia Prima" in the Golden Chain of Homer, symbolized by a cross within a circle: "Nitre" (vertical line) & "Salt" (horizontal line).

The corporified "Acid" and "Alkaline" aspects of the oh-so-dreaded 'Spiritus Mundi' :)

Two substances of the same origin, as per Cyliani.

One doesn't even need to go beyond the main 'Golden Chain' diagram to see the matters and the general sequence.

It's their interaction that would lead us to the "Secret Solvent" or "Philosophical Mercury".

"Lesser" versions of this "Secret Solvent" may apparently also be obtained (as per Urbigerus' Circulatum Minus, first method), by using the "Nitre" in combination with common potash - IF lacking the Central Salt, which is the template for all the others. In this case (again, as per Urbigerus), the "Solvent" wold be largely determined/limited to the vegetable kingdom.

Kiorionis
01-27-2018, 05:08 PM
That would be Helmont, his followers (the "Helmontians") as well as some chymists who did not delve deeper into these subjects and did not learn to distinguish between the secret solvent of the alchemists (which permanently joins the metallic matters it dissolves, "coagulates" with them and forms entirely new substances different from both "parents")

Quick question: what are the metallic matters the solvent is supposed to dissolve/coagulate/join with?

(I have my own answer, I’m just curious of other perspectives, in hopes to further define the secret solvent)

Andro
01-27-2018, 05:16 PM
Quick question: what are the metallic matters the solvent is supposed to dissolve?

The "Secret Solvent" doesn't really perform the classical action of dissolution.


The secret solvent of the alchemists, which permanently joins the metallic matters it dissolves, "coagulates" with them and forms entirely new substances different from both "parents".

Yes, until Lapidification. After that, it separates the Ph. Sulfur from the dregs.

I don't know if the last batch (used for the last Separation) can be re-used or not.

JDP
01-28-2018, 02:56 PM
Quick question: what are the metallic matters the solvent is supposed to dissolve/coagulate/join with?

(I have my own answer, I’m just curious of other perspectives, in hopes to further define the secret solvent)

It is not the totality of the mass of the chosen metallic matter, but a part of it, which the alchemists usually (and arbitrarily) call "sulphur", or "soul", or "tincture/dye". In theory, any metal (from those accepted as such by the alchemists) should work, but some metals are given preference over all others (see, for example, Franz Clinge's works for very clear statements regarding the best 3 metals to supply the "sulphur" part of the Stone.)

Florius Frammel
01-28-2018, 05:51 PM
It is not the totality of the mass of the chosen metallic matter, but a part of it, which the alchemists usually (and arbitrarily) call "sulphur", or "soul", or "tincture/dye". In theory, any metal (from those accepted as such by the alchemists) should work, but some metals are given preference over all others (see, for example, Franz Clinge's works for very clear statements regarding the best 3 metals to supply the "sulphur" part of the Stone.)

Do you think these pictures are refering to this action?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Baro_Urbigerus_—_Filius_noster_—_1705.jpg

http://cappyzeb.freeyellow.com/01/arch/arch01/lambspring/emlems/1.jpg

elixirmixer
01-29-2018, 06:46 AM
Well for me the endless enigma continues.

The regeneration of matter, incredible.

I'm still trying to understand whether lime is useful as is or needs a vinegar wash first. I'm also unsure if organic matter should be applied since it makes me think that this is specification.

Unless of course that a regeneration of matter qualifies as having 'erased code' quality. Or perhaps its the death that erases and the life brings information anew.

How deep, how beautiful our Art. I'm in love with her.

The infinite paradox continues to confuse me, nevertheless it grows clearer and clearer unto the perfect day.

Three from one? Three to collect and purify one. The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand so it seems. Incredible. This is certainly a sacred science.

EDIT!! Wooow.. It is the principals because even in these processes, we see that inside the earth this process is happening on a grand scale with many different Salts. Glorious is the Work of the Elohim (Mother/Father).

Schmuldvich
01-29-2018, 07:08 AM
Well for me the endless enigma continues. The regeneration of matter, incredible.

I'm still trying to understand whether lime is useful as is or needs a vinegar wash first.

EDIT!! Wooow.. It is the principals because even in these processes, we see that inside the earth this process is happening on a grand scale with many different Salts. Glorious is the Work of the Elohim (Mother/Father).

Words such as 'vinegar' and 'lime' are epithets used to describe the varying states of our Matter.

The enigma dissipates when it is realized and understood that these words signify these Principles you mentioned above.

Sons of the Art were the intended audience of the Masters, not common people. These words are used as blinds to deceive the "unworthy".

Free yourself from the labyrinth, friend! Even the small selection I posted from Boerhaave uses decknamen to describe the qualities and characteristics of the substance being described.



See: "How To Read Alchemy Texts" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5465-How-To-Read-Alchemy-Texts)

elixirmixer
01-29-2018, 07:12 AM
I'm sorry, when I talk to the masters, I assume that they know that I do not refer to common lime, nor to common vinegar. :D

Schmuldvich
01-29-2018, 07:25 AM
For those who failed to read the description posted earlier because it's "hard to read", here it is in plain-text...








"A New Method Of Chemistry" by Herman Boerhaave, 1753

https://i.imgur.com/vf1mvzT.png

Upon carefully considering what is above delivered, is should seem as if all chemical solutions, except a few which are merely mechanical, are the effect of a latent attraction, and repulsion, betwixt the parts of the solvent and solvend; and consequently, that the whole action depends upon a certain relation betwixt these two. And hence it follows, from the known rules of the art, that there is no one body, either natural or artificial, which can universally dissolve all the rest. And farther, it seems impossible to assign any one physical manner, wherein the solution of all sorts of bodies should be performed indifferently. But after the elder Helmont publishing his writings, chemists had a notion of a certain secret menstruum, of which Paracelsus was said to be master; and which, after this usual manner of coining names, he called the alcahest: and this, if ever known to any man, as Helmont solemnly affirms it was, must be esteemed the most valuable discovery ever yet made in chemistry; or any other art; as being greater consequence, and more to be desired than the philosopher's stone; as, by means of this alcahest, the most effectual remedies, and the greatest opulency might easily be procured. This was the judicious opinion of Mr. Boyle, who in vain employed the greatest pains and skill to find it out; but yet, in his judgment, he scarce seems to have believed there ever was such a thing. Many eminent chemists have wrote largely upon this menstruum, after Helmont, as of a thing they knew. Impostors have made their advantage of it, and tricked those out of their money who were eager to learn the secret; whilst the prudent have remained in doubt whilst the prudent have remained in doubt, without speaking definitively about it. This has determined me to give a faithful historical narration of the matter as it stands, so far as I can learn its history from the writings of those who have treated upon the subject; in order at least to discover the sentiments of such among them, who declare they have possessed and used it. But, I find, that all the later authors have only copied from Helmont upon the subject. As to what Paracelsus says of the alcahest, no one could have thence thought of such a thing, if Helmont had not intimated that a mystery was concealed under so quaint a term. And as I myself do not possess the secret, all that I can possibly do is only, by strict examination, and exact comparison of these writers, clearly to explain the matter, so far as I could discover it in them; for if they knew such a thing, and designed that a careful reader should find it in their writings, I cannot think of a better way than this for coming at it. Whoever, therefore, would undertake the task of preparing such a menstruum should know upon what materials, with what instruments, and in what way to operate, that his labour may not be lost. But here it is of the last consequence to prevent being imposed upon by the tricks of strolling alchemists; who, with their importunate pretenses, and insinuating address, promise they know not what. These vagabond alchemists may easily be detected by any one who understands the doctrine of Paracelsus and Helmont; which has often been of great assistance to me, when I had such noisy, ignorant pretenders to deal with. Let us therefore examine the matter with care. The word alcahest is mentioned by no writer, not even among the chemists, before Paracelcus; who, so far as I can find, mentions it only in the following passage, viz. "The liquor alcahest has a great effect upon the the liver, so as to fortify and invigorate it, prevent the dropsy and all diseases which happen to that part. Its process is, to resolve it, after it is coagulated, and then coagulate it into a transmuted form; as its process of coagulating and resolving shows. Then if it conquers it’s like, it becomes a medicine exceeding all others for the liver: and though the liver were consumed, this liquor serves instead of the whole liver, as well as if that part had not been consumed. Wherefore, all those who practice physic, should know how to prepare the alcahest, in order to cure numerous distempers arising from the liver." Paracelsus, therefore, has here only used the word twice, and does not use it in any other place; as I have found by carefully examining all his works. Whence no one would have had any farther thoughts upon this subject, if it were not for Helmont's subsequent interpretation.

The origin also of this new term, coined by Paracelsus, has been enquired into: and, as his manner was to disguise the words he used, by transposing the letters thereof, some have imagined he here practiced the same art; and thus sometimes also, by joining the initial letters of words, he has formed such as were unheard-of before: so when he means to mention tartar, as a remedy to open the spleen, he calls it sutratar. Again, when he directs saffron, (which, on account of its yellow colour, being called aroma philosophorum,) in diseased of the kidneys, he calls it aroph: and hence some have thought, that alcahest signified the same as alkali est, as if its basis were and alkali, saturated with a proper acid. Others have imagined, it was the was called alcahest from Saliz-geist, or the spirit of salt; as supposing the alcahest the same as Ciculatum, and prepared from sea-salt, coagulated the alcahest and again coagulated into transmuted form. There are others who suspect it is called alcahest, in allusion to algeist, that is perfect spirit, made by coagulation, resolution, and a second coagulation; which agrees with the opinion of Faber, who takes it for a pure mercurial or metallic spirit, so united to its proper body, as thence to become one inseparable and indestructible substance. But, as we can find no certainty from etymology, let us pass on to the synonymous words; and try if any light can be gained by comparing them together.

Paracelsus has given us no synonyms, that I can find, to the alcahest; but Helmont a considerable number: and indeed, we have no assistance in this affair but from Helmont, who professes the alcahest was given him. Helmont, therefore, first calls it simply water, and says, he "knew a water, which he did not drink proper to discover, by any means whereof all vegetables might be transmuted into a liquor, capable of being distilled, without leaving any feces behind. He declares, he put equal quantities of a certain water and charcoal into a glass, which he hermetically sealed, and set to digest in a bath-heat." In this chapter, he calls the menstruum a thicker water; and says, that in the first chapter of the second book of the Maccabees, mention is made of a thick water, which was perpetual fire, and perhaps not unlike his water. In another place, he calls it a dissolving water; and says, the liquor alcahest is an immutable, dissolving water. He comes nearer to the purpose, when he calls it by a compound word, ignis-aqua, fire-water. Where, giving an allegorical account how he came by his knowledge; he pretends he received a phial, in which was the single term ignis-aqua, a perfectly simple, singular, undeclinable, immutable, and immortal word. He also calls it a latex, or clear water, reduced to the minutest possible atoms. He frequently calls it a liquor. He asserts, that by applying the liquor alcahest of Paracelsus, all bodies may be readily converted into water; and that, by the infernal fire, which is the liquor alcahest of Paracelsus, it may be known how much of another luminary a vegetable possesses. He also calls it a dissolving liquor. All which seems to intimate, that this secret may exist in a moist liquid form, like water.

In another place, he uses ignis Gehenna, or infernal fire, as synonymous; saying expressly, by the infernal fire, which is the liquor alcahest or Paracelsus. And again, in another place, native sand resists both art and nature, and can by no means be resolved, except by the artificial infernal fire alone; which artificial fire converts sand to salt. If Helmont therefore follows Paracelsus in the use of this word, we may thence discover what the word alcahest is; because Paracelsus has wrote expressly of this infernal fire. But more of this, when we come to treat of the alcahest it self.

Next, Helmont says, it is the highest and most successful of all salts; having obtained the utmost degree of purity and subtilty possible in nature. And hence he seems to call it the ens primum of salts, the sal circulatum, and the sal circulatum of Paracelsus. And hence the circulatum majus, the sal circulatum, the sal circulatus, and the sal circulatus Paracelsi, of which he treats in his book de renovatione Etc. restauratione. Could we therefore here depend upon the sincerity and fidelity of Helmont, we might, from these synonymous words, and the writings of Paracelsus, attempt to discover this wonderful menstruum. But, before we enter upon the work, we must consider the origin of the alcahest: and this, we are told, is no where to be found spontaneous in nature: because, as Helmont says, nature has it not; and expressly asserts, that a part of earth may be homogeneously reduced to water by art; at the same time strongly denying it can ever be done by nature alone; nature having no agent capable of reducing true earth to salt and water. Nor can it be produced, except by chemistry alone; which alone hath found a clear water, that cannot be transmuted, and is reduced to the minutest particles possible in nature; though not by vulgar chemistry, but by the labour of knowledge; and this as its ultimate matter-piece, as he expressly declares, repeating the word, "thus at length, thus at length, I say, chemistry prepares an universal solvent, as its ultimate effort". And again, there is not in all chemistry a more difficult process than that for preparing the alcahest; nor a more operose thing in all chemistry; it being not obtainable by reading or meditation; but by plenitude of science, doubly confirmed, is a knowledge of this operation to be acquired: whence it is very seldom given to any one. This liquor, therefore, being of a most tedious preparation, cannot be compassed by the human understanding, though a person is skilled in the art; unless the Most Hight should, by a special gift, put him in possession of it; as chosen for the purpose, by a particular privilege, to enjoy it: God alone being the dispenser of it, for reasons known to the adept. From the origin of the alcahest, here delivered by the author, it is plain how weakly they err, who fancy they can make it with ease: such pretenders at once betray their ignorance, and falsify their own tumid pretensions. Nor let them think to screen themselves, by pretending there are many alcahests: for Helmont flatly contradicts them, by affirming, that as, in all nature, there is only one fire; so likewise there is but one only liquor which dissolves all solids into their first matter, without suffering any change itself, or diminution of its virtues, as the adepts well know, and attest. And by means of this doctrine it is, that I have, with safety to my self, been able to keep off numerous pretenders to science; sanguine in hopes, and abounding in promises, but often probing deceitful, faithless impostors: for, after asking them a question or two, I soon found, by their answers, how little they understood of the subject they so varnished over with words.

Let us next consider the stupendous effects ascribed to this wonderful secret. And first, as a menstruum, it is said to exert and effectual power in dissolving all the known sensible bodies, of what kind forever; even gold and mercury, upon which no other substance can intimately act. for thus says Helmont: "Our mechanical art has shown me, the every substance, as sulphur, Etc. may be transmuted into an actual salt, equal in weight to the body which affords it: and I know how to reduce plants, flesh, fish, bone, and every thing of the like kind, into their three pure principles. But metals, on account of the equal commixture of their feed, are very difficulty reduced to salt; so likewise is sand: for sand, or original earth, resists both nature and art; and will not quit its primitive constancy, by the power of either: and it is only by means of the artificial, infernal fire, that sand turns to salt, and at length to water. Again, the alcahest of Paracelsus transmutes all the natural bodies, by subtilizing them. And elsewhere, all bodies are easily reduced to water, by means of Paracelsus's liquor alcahest; even such as otherwise cannot be resolved into their three principles: and, by its means, all vegetables, even charcoal made of oak, are changed into liquor, that leaves no feces behind, upon distillation: for one and the same liquor alcahest, perfectly reduces all the tangible bodies of the whole universe, into their original life. And thus it likewise acts upon all poisons. It dissolves all things, except itself, as hot water dissolves snow: even oil, and spirit of wine; cedar-wood; all the kinds of elixir proprietatis; the ludus of Paracelsus; mercury; and even gold itself, which cannot otherwise be radically reduced into its component principles, by any solvent whatever; as it is much easier to make gold than to destroy it, according to the unanimous consent of philosophers."

Let us next consider the manner wherein the alcahest exerts its efficacy upon its subjects. Its power, we find, is always increased by fire; though only a small degree thereof is required in digesting, distilling, or cohobating: for, a coal of oak and the alcahest being put together, in equal quantities, and the containing glass Hermetically sealed; the solution was performed in three days time, by digesting in a bath-heat. The sal circulatum by bare digestion, wonderfully changes all oil, and spirit of wine. The alcahest being put to an equal weight of cedar-wood, reduced to chips; and the glass Hermetically sealed; the whole substance of the wood was, with a warm digestion, for a week, changed to a milky liquor. Sometimes, also, the business performed by a single distillation; for, the liquor alcahest being once distilled from common mercury, leaves it behind, coagulated and reducible to powder; but neither increases nor diminishes its weight: and this it does in a quarter of an hour. But in other cases, cohobation is required before the desired effect can be obtained; for, bodies turned into salt of equal weight respectively, are sometimes to be cohobated with the sal circulatum of Paracelsus, before they disposit all their fixity: especially metals, and principally gold, by reason of the perfectly equable commixture of their feed. But otherwise, a single distillation of the alcahest, from the ludus or cevilla of Paraceulsus; being a stone found at the bottom of the Scheld near Aniwerp; will in two hours convert the whole stone into salt of the same weight. Noe, do I find any other way of applying this universal solvent; not that a greater force of fire is required: it may therefore dissolve all bodies, by any means of a gentle agitation of its own parts, occasioned by fire; for the alcahest may be distilled with the second degree of heat of a sand-furnace; and does not rise with the tepid warmth of a bath. There has been nothing in all nature, hitherto observed or related, more surprising than the physical change which these authors attribute to the action of the menstruum; as it at once changes the whole body of the subject into a different mass, without the least alteration of weight in the operation. The mass, after being thus changed, seems always to appear either in a fluid or saline form, though with some difference; for quick-silver, by the action of the alcahest, becomes a fixed powder, that may be ground, and resists a blast-heat, and the power of lead upon the test. And almost all other bodies are by it turned into an equal weight of salt. Oak charcoal is immediately changed by it, into two transparent liquors, different in colour and gravity. Cedar-wood is changed into a milky liquor, of the same weight, and afterwards into two kinds of oil, which by bare digestion turned to a pure salt, miscible with water. The ludus of Paracelsus, in two hours time, by a single gentle distillation, is totally converted into a salt of equal weight, which runs per deliquium in the air, and affords a fluid without any feces. From all which it is plain that this solution, though it differs at the first, yet at length always reduces the dissolved bodies to the form of a salt, soluble in water, except quicksilver; which, on account of its great purity and simplicity, cannot be turned into salt: whence, it radically resists all the possible separations of art or nature, and therefore, is perfectly indestructible. These bodies, therefore, when turned on an equal quantity of salt by the alcahest, still retain their virtues depending upon their seminal powers; which consequently are peculiar and communicable. This remarkable property is described, where he says That 'the alcahest of Paracelsus transmutes all the bodies in nature, by subtilizing them: for, when bodies are subtilized as high as possible, they at length change to another substance, but retain their seminal properties: and by means of the universal solvent all things are brought back to their Ens primum, and retain retain their native virtues; whence great and unlimited powers may be obtained.' And plainer still; 'This liquor only, can dissolve all solids into their first matter, without any diminution or alteration in itself.' Whence he recommends 'the knowledge of that homogeneous and immutable menstruum, which dissolves its subjects into their first liquid matter; whereby the internal essences of things, and their properties may be seen.'

By this means, therefore, all these bodies turn to a saline, volatile substance, containing the presiding spirit of each subject, respectively; which saline matter may be intimately mixed with all the animal fluids, and sage to exert its peculiar virtues upon the body. Whence, such substances have been called potable; and thus, for example, by potable gold, the adepts understood gold reduced to such a saline body; though they have only boasted themselves possessed thereof, either through vain-glory, or the spirit of delusion. Gold dissolved by acids, is no more than a liquor contained unaltered particles of that metal; but the aurum potabile of the philosophers, is of equal weight with gold employed, without the admixture of any menstruum, and, only the pure, first matter, or ens primum of the gold itself. The most extraordinary thing belonging to the alcahest, is its being capable of dissolving bodies, without mixing itself among them; but, remaining perfectly separate from all their particles, without increasing or diminishing the weight of the substance dissolved; as plainly appears hence, that oak-coal was, with a bath-heat, dissolved by into two distinct liquors of different colours and properties, and thus came over by distillation, leaving the solvent liquor behind, of the same weight as at first: for, he found no body, whereto the alcahest would unite; being itself a pure, subtile substance, reduced to the smallest possible particles; and, therefore incapable of all fermentation and admixture; so that it produces its effect by a bare external action, and not concreting with the body it changes: as, the purest fire acts upon its objects; or, as hot water dissolves ice. For this liquor leaves no part of itself mixed with the body dissolved.

Hence, the alcahest appears to have two extraordinary properties, which respect to all other menstruums, viz. That it does not act by attraction, or repulsion, but entirely by a certain mechanical force; contrary to all other of the known menstruum, unless perhaps, we except fire. That it constantly preserves all the native virtues of the bodies it dissolves; and yet, when it resolves poisons it deprives them of their virulence, or noxious quality, and endows them with the highest medicinal virtues, by reducing them into their first matter; which is extremely difficult to understand.

When the alcahest has thus reduced all bodies into their saline and volatile ens primum, so as to retain their respective native virtues; if the subjects b farther urged, by the action of the same solvent, they lose their saline nature, and all their proper seminal virtue: whence, all these different subjects are reduced to the same indolent, scentless, insipid, simple, elementary water: so that, by applying this solvent too long, the former excellent productions are destroyed. From hence, at the same time, it appears that water must thus be the ultimate manner of all tangible bodies; the alcahest itself being unable to act any farther upon this water: which, however, being again impregnated with what feed forever, may thus pass into any new kind of body.

The author expresses himself thus: ' All bodies, we see, are transmutable into an actual salt, equal in weight to the original subject; which salt being several times cohabated with the sal ciculatum of Paracelsus, loses all its fixedness, and transmutes into a liquor, which at length becomes insipid water, equi-ponderant to the salt that afforded it. Native sand turns to salt, and at length to water, by means of artificial, infernal fire, and by no other. I know water, by means whereof all vegetable are changed into a distillable liquor, without leaving any feces at the bottom of the glass; and this distilled liquor, without leaving is totally reduced, with alkalies, into insipid elementary water. Oak-coal converted into two liquors by the alcahest, rises by distillation, with the admixture of a little chalk, nearly of its original weight; and has all the properties of rain-water: and, thus all things become so volatile, as to rise with a bath-heat; leaving the alcahest behind at the bottom.'

It appears extremely strange, that this menstruum, which has such wonderful effects upon all sorts of bodies, should never be in the least diminished, altered, or impaired by them: in which respect it truly resembles fire; whereto it may, therefore, justly be compared. Thus the author clearly says, that, it acts upon all the sublunary bodies, without being acted upon. And when it had so wonderfully dissolved the oak-coal, it remained at the bottom, still of the same weight and virtue. Accordingly, no transmutation of the alcahest is to be expected; because there is no other body it can join or ferment with: whence, it never dies. With its utmost action, therefore, it reduces all tangible bodies into a middle life; without suffering any change or diminution of its virtues. It is, therefore, immutable and immortal. It is the only substance not altered by action. It acts, therefore, without suffering re-action, or being itself weakened. For, it is an homogeneous, and immutable dissolvent. And remains numerically the same in weight and virtue; as well after being a thousand times employed, as after being but once used.

It is farther to be observed of this menstruum, that it has a wonderful degree of fixedness, or volatility, in the fire: for, after it has rendered all bodies, even those of the most fixed kind, so volatile as that they may be distilled over with a bath-heat; yet itself does not rise with them, but remain fixed at the bottom. At the same time, the alcahest is so volatile, as with the second degree of heat in a sand-furnace, to rise by distillation, along with the bodies it had dissolved. Whence, it may be drawn off from common mercury, thus fixed, and coagulated. And from hence, we have the exact limitation of the small degree of heat, wherein the full power of the alcahest is exerted upon all the bodies in nature.

We must farther observe, that though the alcahest be inseparable by all other bodies, and ought never to be impaired; yet there is one substance in nature, wherewith it may unite. This plainly appears from considering the following passage of the author. 'Chemistry is anxious to find a body of so great purity, as not to be dissipated or corrupted; and at length the art was astonished upon discovering an aqueous liquor, which being reduced to the minutest atoms possible in nature, would not unite with any ferment; whence, its transmutation was despaired of, as not finding a body more noble than itself, wherewith to join: but, the labour of philosophy made an anomalous thing in nature, which without mixing with any ferment, rose different from itself. This serpent biting itself, recovered from the poison; and was, thence, immortal.'

Whence, we feel, that there was a certain conjunction of two things, however different they might be. This appears more plainly, and distinctly where he says, that one and the same liquor alcahest, perfectly reduces all the tangible bodies of the universe, into their first life, without suffering any change itself, or loss of virtue; being only subdued and changed by its equal. In another place he comes nearer to the point, where he says, that, mercury freed from its original sulphur cleaving to its innermost part, is immutable in the fire, and immediately consumed all other feeds, except its equal.

Thus, I have given a faithful account of the alcahest, upon the credit of Helmont; and do not remember, that I have any where else read of such a thing; which is not spoke of by ancient philosophers, physicians, or other chemists, though it be the most desirable particular in all physics. It will, therefore, be expected I should say somewhat of the matter it is to be made from. And, I must own that I have tried an incredible variety of experiments tot his purpose; and have sometimes repented of and detested the labour.

JDP
01-29-2018, 02:32 PM
It appears extremely strange, that this menstruum, which has such wonderful effects upon all sorts of bodies, should never be in the least diminished, altered, or impaired by them: in which respect it truly resembles fire; whereto it may, therefore, justly be compared. Thus the author clearly says, that, it acts upon all the sublunary bodies, without being acted upon. And when it had so wonderfully dissolved the oak-coal, it remained at the bottom, still of the same weight and virtue. Accordingly, no transmutation of the alcahest is to be expected; because there is no other body it can join or ferment with: whence, it never dies. With its utmost action, therefore, it reduces all tangible bodies into a middle life; without suffering any change or diminution of its virtues. It is, therefore, immutable and immortal. It is the only substance not altered by action. It acts, therefore, without suffering re-action, or being itself weakened. For, it is an homogeneous, and immutable dissolvent. And remains numerically the same in weight and virtue; as well after being a thousand times employed, as after being but once used.

That already says it all: the "alkahest" of Helmont was MOST CERTAINLY NOT the secret solvent/water of the alchemists. The above statements are quite the opposite of what the alchemists state about their "water", which eventually ends up "coagulating" with the metallic matter it dissolved and forming AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE MASS OF THE STONE ITSELF. One only has to read descriptions by actual alchemists to plainly see this RADICAL difference between both solvents. One example (out of the tons that can be found), taken from Artephius:

(7) Now this water is a certain middle substance, clear as fine silver, which ought to receive the tinctures of sol and luna, so as they may be congealed, and changed into a white and living earth. For this water needs the perfect bodies, that with them after the dissolution, it may be congealed, fixed, and coagulated into a white earth. But if this solution is also their coagulation, for they have one and the same operation, because one is not dissolved, but the other is congealed, nor is there any other water which can dissolve the bodies, but that which abideth with them in the matter and the form. It cannot be permanent unless it be of the nature of other bodies, that they may be made one. When therefore you see the water coagulate itself with the bodies that be dissolved therein; be assured that thy knowledge, way of working, and the work itself are true and philosophic, and that you have done rightly according to art.

Conclusion: whatever is it that Helmont discovered (if it isn't actually just an empty boast of his, because it doesn't look like any of his followers had much success in replicating Helmont's claims regarding this "alkahest") was some sort of unusual chymical solvent, but certainly NOT that of the alchemists. The properties of both COULD NOT BE MORE OPPOSED!

Schmuldvich
02-01-2018, 06:36 AM
Taken from Artephius:

(7) Now this water is a certain middle substance, clear as fine silver, which ought to receive the tinctures of sol and luna, so as they may be congealed, and changed into a white and living earth. For this water needs the perfect bodies, that with them after the dissolution, it may be congealed, fixed, and coagulated into a white earth. But if this solution is also their coagulation, for they have one and the same operation, because one is not dissolved, but the other is congealed, nor is there any other water which can dissolve the bodies, but that which abideth with them in the matter and the form. It cannot be permanent unless it be of the nature of other bodies, that they may be made one. When therefore you see the water coagulate itself with the bodies that be dissolved therein; be assured that thy knowledge, way of working, and the work itself are true and philosophic, and that you have done rightly according to art.


Do you not understand what these perfect Bodies are, JDP...?

The quote is not speaking of vulgar metals, but rather speaking of our Sol and our Luna. These are not elemental gold and elemental silver as used in the passage you provided.

You conveniently highlighted the part for us that makes this clear: "nor is there any other water which can dissolve the bodies, but that which abideth with them in the matter and the form"

Where in the quote does it say anything about being permanently united to all bodies?

Artephius was speaking Philosophically. When you learn how to read Alchemy texts (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5465-How-To-Read-Alchemy-Texts) this will be more clear.

Excellent quote! Thank you for posting!

JDP
02-01-2018, 03:10 PM
Do you not understand what these perfect Bodies are, JDP...?

The quote is not speaking of vulgar metals, but rather speaking of our Sol and our Luna. These are not elemental gold and elemental silver as used in the passage you provided.

You conveniently highlighted the part for us that makes this clear: "nor is there any other water which can dissolve the bodies, but that which abideth with them in the matter and the form"

Where in the quote does it say anything about being permanently united to all bodies?

Artephius was speaking Philosophically. When you learn how to read Alchemy texts (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5465-How-To-Read-Alchemy-Texts) this will be more clear.

Excellent quote! Thank you for posting!

That's because Artephius thought that only two metals worked (and yes, whatever his "Sol" was, it is obviously a metal since he mentions it being hammered into thin plates before being submitted to the action of the secret solvent. Metals are the only malleable bodies. Malleability was in fact one of the chief distinguishing factors between metals and all other mineral substances.) Other alchemists accepted more metallic bodies as being subjects to alchemical treatment with the secret solvent. The important thing here is that whether it is only two or many more metallic bodies, the fact is that the secret solvent PERMANENTLY UNITES with their "tinctures/sulphurs/souls" (which then together will eventually form either the Stone or a "particular" alchemical "tincture"), while the "alkahest" of Helmont DOES NOT UNITE WITH ANYTHING IT DISSOLVES. Again, the difference is exceedingly clear between the actions of both solvents.

You should re-read what some of your very own quoted sources say in the "learn how to read Alchemy texts" since they will show you that the alchemists relied heavily on "decknamen" as their favorite means of concealment, specially when it comes to the preparation of the secret solvent. It is not, as you seem to imagine, that we should indiscriminately not take everything they say literally (which, by the way, anyone can easily employ to dismantle your very own favorite "one matter only" theory: "When they speak most clearly, that's when they are deceiving you the most!" See how easy it is to arbitrarily apply your very own tactic to try to invalidate all the statements that go against your theory?) A heck of a lot of what they say is to be taken quite literally, since it is not very revealing to the average inexperienced Joe (like, for example, color changes/sequences, which by themselves, without any other hints/clues, will not be very revealing to most people.) When they do "lie" the most is when it comes to giving information about the substances to be used, specially in the making of the secret solvent/water (and for good reason: the whole of alchemy depends on it! A whole bunch of alchemists are so confident that you will not succeed without it that they hardly make any attempts at concealment of anything else in the entire process, except this initial and crucial part.) That's when the heavy use & abuse of "decknamen" and obscure, vague and/or contradictory statements regarding the substances to be used kicks in in most alchemical texts.

PS- notice also the following passage:

If therefore you put into this water, leaves, filings, or calx of any metal, and set it in a gentle heat for a time, the whole will be dissolved, and converted into a viscous water, or white oil as aforesaid.

Notice that Artephius is aware that other metals are also subject to alchemical treatment with the secret solvent, but he still persists in commanding to use "Sol" or "Luna". That is because Artephius only seems to be interested in making the Stone and does not seem to care for any other alchemical "tinctures", and he is convinced that only two metallic bodies will work for this purpose. Like I said, some alchemists were more restrictive than others regarding how many metals could be used to make the Stone.

Florius Frammel
02-09-2018, 07:57 AM
Sounds to me as if the secret solvent must be some kind of alloy of two or more metals (and maybe some other material too). The metals must be mixed in a special ratio to get an alloy with a melting point slightly above room temperature. But if it would be like that, other problems would still persist.

JDP
02-09-2018, 03:15 PM
Sounds to me as if the secret solvent must be some kind of alloy of two or more metals (and maybe some other material too). The metals must be mixed in a special ratio to get an alloy with a melting point slightly above room temperature. But if it would be like that, other problems would still persist.

If you read the descriptions of its preparation (but with the names of the substances involved veiled under "decknamen", and/or vaguely/confusedly/contradictorily referred to, so as to NOT make it easy to figure out what they actually are), it's obvious that metals alone simply won't cut it. They never produce any such "water", or "oil", or "fat/butter/wax", or "salt" on their own (the secret solvent can take this variety of forms, depending on certain factors and variations in its preparation), not even mixed with mercury (which is really just another metal, like all others, only it happens to be liquid at room temperature and more volatile.) Minerals & metals are "too dry" (as some writers liked to put it) to be able to afford the secret solvent on their own.

Note: some mineral substances or their combinations CAN certainly produce byproducts with salty ("vitriols", for example), liquid ("spirit of salt", for example) and even "oily" ("oil of vitriol", for example) or "buttery" ("butter of antimony", for example) appearances, BUT they do NOT have the properties of the secret solvent. Some of these purely mineral byproducts ARE useful or even essential in chymical transmutation processes, though.

Florius Frammel
02-11-2018, 06:31 AM
You mentioned a text from an arab or persian writer in an other thread, who made a list of substances together with their decknamen. I forgot the name of the author and text, but I guess it must have been Al-Rhazi or Jabbir ibn Hayyan. Is that were you have the names of the substances from?

JDP
02-11-2018, 04:08 PM
You mentioned a text from an arab or persian writer in an other thread, who made a list of substances together with their decknamen. I forgot the name of the author and text, but I guess it must have been Al-Rhazi or Jabbir ibn Hayyan. Is that were you have the names of the substances from?

Maybe you are referring to al-Razi's classification of natural substances? He did not employ "decknamen" on that one, as his intention in this case was not to hide anything from the general public but to provide a system of classification that others could also use. He classified natural substances with their real, common names (as used in his times.) No need for "decknamen" here since he was not dealing with the subject of making the Stone.

Avatar
03-18-2018, 05:48 AM
The 'elementals' are the secret solvent no?
Out of all the elements the 'elements of nature's are mere principles of matter.
The liquid state, the gas state, the solid state. intermixed with f ure which is the 'universal solvent', and sunlight which is the metaphysical solvent. Ultraviolet rays. Uv breaks HO bonds no? It burns on a small level. Also known as an bleaching, and it is the only difference between figure and sunlight.
Point is. Each of these elements are a solvent in themselves.
It is after all the circulation of the elements no?
With 3 circulating principles and two acting forces. one vulgar one celestial. Vulgar fire and celestial fire.
I would suppose that is the complicated yet easy part.
The hard part being refinement of the body itself.
well what is refinement?
well you can't get rid of the body.
Pretending a lighter substance is the body is a trick no?
Like saying when I die i become a ghost and so it's okay.
No no.
Yet then how is a body made volatile?
By becoming smaller and smaller. Brittle and tiny like smoke. Yet without burning. A substance burned is no longer what it once was. By burning you fundamentally change a substance.

Luxus
03-18-2018, 03:46 PM
There is another option that might clear the confusion. That is the secret solvent may coagulate and become one with the substance it is dissolving in some instances and in other instances the secret solvent may dissolve a substance yet remain separate and unchanged by the reaction. What would be the cause of these two results, could it be that in one instance the solvent is alike the material it is dissolving and in the other it is unlike the material it is dissolving. Being alike could result in a closer union with that being dissolved, being unlike could result in remaining distinct from the matter it is dissolving. The result would be that in one instance you end up with a homogenus material and in the other you end up with two distinct products.

JDP
03-18-2018, 06:48 PM
There is another option that might clear the confusion. That is the secret solvent may coagulate and become one with the substance it is dissolving in some instances and in other instances the secret solvent may dissolve a substance yet remain separate and unchanged by the reaction. What would be the cause of these two results, could it be that in one instance the solvent is alike the material it is dissolving and in the other it is unlike the material it is dissolving. Being alike could result in a closer union with that being dissolved, being unlike could result in remaining distinct from the matter it is dissolving. The result would be that in one instance you end up with a homogenus material and in the other you end up with two distinct products.

Maybe so for non-metallic matters in general. But Helmont claimed that his "alkahest" solvent remained separate from ALL substances (including metals/minerals) it would dissolve and alter, and it itself remained always unaltered while it did all that. This precludes it from being the secret solvent of the alchemists, which eventually forms a permanent union with the metals it dissolves and alters, forming wholly new substances (i.e. the alchemical "tinctures"), different from both the solvent and the metal and which never again can be reduced back to its components (i.e. the solvent and the metal.)

black
03-19-2018, 12:00 AM
The secret solvent of the alchemists, which eventually forms a permanent union with the metals it dissolves and alters, forming wholly new substances (i.e. the alchemical "tinctures"), different from both the solvent and the metal and which never again can be reduced back to its components (i.e. the solvent and the metal.)

I think your spot on with this line of thought JDP, this sounds like True Alchemy to me.

This secret solvent you are talking about here correspond with the majority of what the old masters have written.