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Dragon's Tail
01-24-2018, 04:06 AM
This is boggling my mind now. If this were an oil it should have been absorbed or floated to the top or something. It's also notoriously difficult to capture in a photograph, so bear with me on the camera photo, but if you look real close you can see this subtle swirly haze sitting in the bottom of my collection flask. I've been leaving it covered with a foil so light can't get to it. This came over with one of my piperine distillations (extraction of the eth from solution).

https://i.imgur.com/H1QMG16.jpg

I tried fiddling with the image to boost the contrast, but nothing worked well enough to make the little half-swirl any more noticeable, so this is the original from the camera, cropped and resized only. Thoughts?

Schmuldvich
01-24-2018, 04:16 AM
Are you talking about the little tiny white dot looking things at the bottom of your flask?

Do either of these edits show what you're referring to any better...?



https://i.imgur.com/0a4KGOx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VPDIriU.jpg

Kiorionis
01-24-2018, 04:34 AM
It would be helpful to provide an outline of the process, or a summary of your lab notes. Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.

Dragon's Tail
01-24-2018, 04:56 AM
Are you talking about the little tiny white dot looking things at the bottom of your flask?

Do either of these edits show what you're referring to any better...?



I got similar images. The dots are off the black background that I needed to hi-light it. It's the little misty swirls that can be seen in all, they're much easier to notice in real life when held up to a light.


It would be helpful to provide an outline of the process, or a summary of your lab notes. Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.

Kiorionis. Black pepper was tinctured, tincture was separated, water added ~2 parts to one, crystallized piperine was filtered off.
The remaining solutions (I split them up for various things, such as adding more water or salting out) were distilled to recover the alc solvent for more experimenting with the crystals. This came over with the distillation. I think shiners might call this "tails," but I'm not sure what that consists of. I suspect some water came over with one of the distillations. I'm wondering what this substance might be if it's a common thing for watery organic solutions.

Kiorionis
01-24-2018, 04:39 PM
I see similar things during distillation, and if you evaporate it down it will first be watery with some oils, then phlegm, and finally a bit of volatile salts. The exact constituents will have to be analyzed in a lab to really know what they are.

If you evaporate off the alcohol, you can check the pH to see if it’s alkaline or acidic, which might narrow it down more.

Ghislain
01-24-2018, 09:02 PM
DT could you isolate some of the milky substance using a pipette?

Ghislain

Dragon's Tail
01-25-2018, 03:43 AM
DT could you isolate some of the milky substance using a pipette?

Ghislain

I'm not certain. I went to look again, and today it looks like floating heat waves. It persisted for about 3 days though, I was thinking about using a separating funnel. This distillate is being used to make a piperine tincture, and some of it was used already for purifying, because I found out that the sticky gum is a bit more soluble than the piperine itself. If I distill off the leftover gum solution, I might create more of it, but there isn't much and I'll need to mix with a little water to keep the precipitating gum from burning to the side of the flask.

If I manage to isolate some, what would I do with it? PH test? I have a creeping suspicion that it will show back up if I distill again, either in the receiver or possibly left behind in the boiling flask.

EDIT: unless I destroyed it with that bright light trying to get a photo.

Ghislain
01-25-2018, 05:42 PM
I guess if you could isolate some you could test the disparity between the two.

Ph test, evaporation, flamability, odour etc...

Ghislain

Dragon's Tail
01-25-2018, 06:31 PM
does water work well for chromatography of alcohol solutions? I thought about this with a couple of things that I'm doing, most likely the current piperine final preparations... I suppose like anything else I'll try it and see. If I can repeat and get it back I'll take a closer look.

Florius Frammel
01-25-2018, 06:44 PM
does water work well for chromatography of alcohol solutions? I thought about this with a couple of things that I'm doing, most likely the current piperine final preparations... I suppose like anything else I'll try it and see. If I can repeat and get it back I'll take a closer look.

I doubt it. Water will only take water soluble substances along. All nonpolar substances will be left behind. I recommend a mixture of ethanol or (better) acetone and ligroin. You will have to test the ratio of the mixture for even then you can get bad results in chromatography.

Edit: Further the milky substance looks to me like some kind of solid matter. Chromatography won't be helpful in this case. But it could work identifying the yellow piperine if you can compare it with a reference solution of piperine in alcohol. Of course you have to be sure your reference really is piperine or you are lucky and find comparable data somewhere.

Dragon's Tail
01-25-2018, 11:48 PM
Yeah, that still might be over my head. It's something I want to try and it looks easy enough, but I don't know what it'll tell me about "clear" chemicals without some kind of staining or reactive chemical involved.

I'm starting to question the data available on piperine. The alcohol simply isn't soaking it up anywhere near as much as the solubility on wiki claims. I mean, it tastes like piperine (super hot when isolated), looks like it (the tiny crystals), smells like it. Might be one of the related chemicals though, I suppose. The readings say it readily transforms under certain conditions, but the current sample hasn't been exposed to any kind of heat or light. It's not supposed to be as bad as garlic extract in that respect (one of my future candidates for a new tincturing system I'm developing).

As far as solid or liquid, it could well be, but it's in the same group with the rest of these things I can't filter out. Some solids just don't like to precipitate all the way, I suppose, or at least don't congeal to the point where you can filter them off. I just wonder if there are some common things that distill over across the board that might show up from manipulating a tincture with water.

Florius Frammel
01-26-2018, 08:13 AM
Concerning solubility: What is the ethanol/water ratio of your alcohol? The wiki data is refering to 96% concentration. When having lower ratios and therefore more water is involved the solubility is reduced.

Similar things seem to happen when using the circulatum minus by Junius on fresh (water containing) plant matter. It's called the Louche-Effect. Those of you putting water into your anis shot sure have seen this.

If you need help in doing a chromatography feel free to ask.

Dragon's Tail
01-26-2018, 02:14 PM
Concerning solubility: What is the ethanol/water ratio of your alcohol? The wiki data is refering to 96% concentration. When having lower ratios and therefore more water is involved the solubility is reduced.

Similar things seem to happen when using the circulatum minus by Junius on fresh (water containing) plant matter. It's called the Louche-Effect. Those of you putting water into your anis shot sure have seen this.

If you need help in doing a chromatography feel free to ask.

I thought about that, it's from the tincture so certainly not the proof it was when I began. I also considered there's probably some dissolved volatiles in it that might be affecting the solubility too. I haven't tried my absolute on the purified crystals. They've taken on a whitish tone (which everyone online says will happen as they get more and more pure), and the piperine seems to be the last thing picked up by fractionally soaking and filtering off. I went from ~7 grains (which looks like a lot more in a dish, but it's light) to 2 grains of pure crystals by that process alone.

Since I've already secured my tincture of piperine (from the last filtering, I'm really happy with the potency, color, and effect, it actually dissolves in a glass instead of clouding up, and it's lost some of the tinctures overtones), I might try my "absolute" on the remaining amount (~95%) and measure up how much it takes to solve it. Should only take 2-3mL according to the wiki and.. I think it was ChemSpider that verified it. Then maybe evaporate to grow some crystals.

They also didn't include temp, so they might be talking about it from yield in experiments involving soxhlet extraction.

p.s. I call 190pf "absolute" as a habit, but I haven't dried this with a dessicant, so basically as pure as I can get without.

Florius Frammel
01-26-2018, 03:27 PM
You are right with temperature effects.
Solid matters (earth) usually solute better in water on high temperatures (fire) whereas gases usually solute better in water on low temperatures.
Together with acid/bases reactions and redox reactions where one particle has the giving (electron or proton; male; sulfur) and the other an accepting (female, mercury) part, there really are huge connections between alchemical symbology and chemical imaginations of one and the same reactions.
Of course before Dalton they did not know about the concept of atoms (I know Demokrit inveted or imagined atoms way before Dalton) but the connection between this alchemical symbolism and more modern chemical explanations seem to be more than coincidence in my opinion.