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Awani
02-04-2018, 01:45 PM
Beware that this is a deep rabbit hole that you are about to go down into. Also I'm pretty busy at the moment, so don't have time to flesh this out properly... just wanted to post an outline of it, because why the hell not?

I recently did a podcast episode (http://www.naturalbornalchemist.com/episodes/2018/3/4/episode-164-alchemically-stoned) with a freemason that had some interesting insight into matters, that I myself have been suspecting for a long time.



The Masonic Connection

The Eleusinian Mysteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries) most likely used ergot in their rituals, which is a form of LSD.

Anyway this practice was banned or died away… and could it be that it did not die? That the practices continued… perhaps into the Masonic Order? Even if the Masons of today do not incorporate psychedelics in their rituals, perhaps they did in the past?

Apparently the Egyptian Rite created by Cagliostro did.


Cagliostro writes that his candidates for initiation “shall drink” a brew prepared from acacia, the “primal matter,” thereby “raising his spirit in order to understand.” This is exactly the type of language that one would expect if Cagliostro was actually initiating his candidates with a form of ayahuasca.

For, the brew certainly satisfies the requirements of raising one’s spirit and imparting a certain understanding that comes only from the type of inebriation induced by drinking the beverage. As we have noted elsewhere, if not for its DMT content, we cannot conceive of any practical reason why Cagliostro would have his initiates literally drink an ayahuasca-like concoction of acacia. – source (http://disinfo.com/2016/04/count-cagliostros-libation-of-acacia-and-the-herb-rue-of-the-irwins-fratres-lucis/)

To this day a new initiate in Freemasonry is given a branch of Acacia.

Acacia is an excellent source of DMT. Also there is a theory about Moses and the burning bush being Acacia (DMT).



The Alchemical Connection

I have for a long time, but had not had the time to do so, been thinking about looking into the DMT extraction process and tracing it over the alchemical process… because I think that the Stone is DMT… it always was!

What does DMT look like? Crystals… i.e. Stones.

Also the most telling clue is that it is called the PHILOSOPHERS Stone…

https://image.ibb.co/eHAsqc/File_Proxy_ashx.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
A photo of the Stone i.e. DMT crystals.

Side note: does DMT, if orally ingested, need MAOI inhibitor? Apparently if you drink so much that the body can't "destroy" the DMT quantity you ingest, then you will get the DMT experience anyway. Which removes any issue regarding the lack of MAOI processes in alchemy... even if I think they might be found... I have not looked yet.



The LSD conncetion

The story goes that Albert Hofmann first synthesized LSD in 1938, which eventually led to the hippie movement and the "drop acid, not bombs" chants...


In 1933, five years earlier, Leo Perutz published the novel Saint Peter's Snow (also known in English as The Virgin's Brand). Critic Alan Piper considered it "a psychological detective story", although it has varyingly been categorised as science fiction or fantasy. Piper believed that the novel was decades ahead of its time due to the description of a hallucinogenic drug derived from an ergot fungus 10 years before the discovery of LSD. He also thought it astonishing that it discussed the experimental use of this hallucinogen on an isolated village 20 years before the 1951 Pont-Saint-Esprit mass poisoning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Pont-Saint-Esprit_mass_poisoning), and proposed that ergot was the psychoactive ingredient used in the ancient mystery cults 40 years before this was put forward as a serious proposal. - source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Perutz)

It has been claimed that ergot poising was common in the old days, and perhaps why some people were burned as witches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism#Salem_witchcraft_accusations).

Ergot is a fungus that grows on rye. Ergot poisoning is also known as Saint Anthonys Fire, named after Saint Anthony the Hermit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_the_Hermit). Just saying...

Side note: According to the freemason I talked to there is also a theory that Albert Hofmann did not stumble upon LSD by accident, but that in fact he was part of an order that tried to find a compound that could end war (make love, not bombs)...



Conclusions

1. As I have put forward before, I think that alchemy is an offspring of shamanism.

2. All religions and ancient knowledge of "gods", "afterlife" and "wisdom" comes from psychedelics and/or shamanic rituals.

3. Alchemy is about finding the Stone, and the Stone is DMT... any other Stone is just a rock. Ha ha. :) Although I am sure healing potions and other usable and valuable elixirs can be made with Alchemy... but I don't think any of them is the Stone.

4. I can only seriously accept counter-arguments to this theory after you have smoked a heroic dose of DMT, or committed yourself to a proper brew of Ayahuasca... because I would have called this theory mumbo-jumbo before I did so myself. LOL. And if anyone tells me that if I only could see the Stone they made, and how it transmutes "lead into gold", I would simply just say: "not interested in making gold"

Because if making gold is the reason we are here, then I am utterly disgusted... unless you want gold to create a public domain statue to the Divine Mystery or something... ;)

Awani out.

:p

Schmuldvich
02-04-2018, 02:22 PM
Wonderful thread!

As someone who has many DMT experiences under their belt, I completely agree.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing at all that even comes close to the absolute profundity of experiencing the effects of DMT.

If you are versed in Alchemy and have ever extracted DMT yourself (you gotta try this soon, Awani!) you would be amazed to find out how closely, albeit not exactly, the process follows our Work.

I have not confected the Philosopher's Stone, but I am very interested in the effects manifested in the Artist after ingesting it. Some of the "health effects" touted by the Adepts resonate with that of orally ingested DMT+MAOi to some degree.

Being that I have never seen, touched, or experienced the effects of the Philosopher's Stone (the end product of our Great Work), I can honestly say that DMT is the closest thing to the Philosopher's Stone I have ever come in contact with, and by far the most incredibly powerful substance on Earth.

Until I produce the Philosopher's Stone, my opinion remains unchanged.









These threads may be of interest to you:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=30071 (No MAOI: Complexing DMT freebase for sublingual administration)
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=5439 (So I snorted some freebase.....)
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23795 (Snorting DMT DOES work and it works very well!!!!)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15546625/fpart/all/vc/1 (Snort DMT for the win!! (If you can handle it))
https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=73670 (No MAOI Experiment: An Experience with DMT Rectally)

Awani
02-04-2018, 02:42 PM
Until I produce the Philosopher's Stone, my opinion remains unchanged.


...and have ever extracted DMT yourself...

Seems to me you already have produced it.


...you gotta try this soon, Awani...

I have extracted it. ;)

:p

horticult
02-04-2018, 03:19 PM
imo acacia is here as deckname, koz is symbol 4 immortal/longevity

Awani
02-04-2018, 04:17 PM
imo acacia is here as deckname, koz is symbol 4 immortal/longevity

https://image.ibb.co/h5HOVc/557e95a4c37fe6e4b1c4949fb33a417b0cd9576850bd829de8 fe722a3c8cc0ab.jpg

:p

alfr
02-04-2018, 07:50 PM
Hello everyone

this text Alchemically-Stoned-Psychedelic-Secret-Freemasonry of the Newman freemason (see various reviews and Newman's articles) just published about entogens and natural psychoactive substances and alchemy and philosopher's stone makes hypotheses and researches that perhaps?could perhaps? be interesting ?

https://www.amazon.com/Alchemically-Stoned-Psychedelic-Secret-Freemasonry/dp/0578194007

and about it read also

https://grahamhancock.com/newmanpd1/

but to develop the topic and the research, let us ask ourselves first of all the DMT, etc., do we have the characteristics that traditionally must have the stone philosophale its elixir?

my best regard

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Salve a tutti

questo testo Alchemically-Stoned-Psychedelic-Secret-Freemasonry del massone Newman (si vedano varie recensioni e articoli di Newman ) appena edito a riguardo entogeni e sostanze naturali psicoattive e alchimia e pietra filosofale fa ipotesi e ricerche che anche forse? potrebbero essere forse? interessanti ?

https://www.amazon.com/Alchemically-Stoned-Psychedelic-Secret-Freemasonry/dp/0578194007

and about it read

https://grahamhancock.com/newmanpd1/

ma per sviluppare l'argomento e la ricerca chiediamoci come prima cosa il DMT etc hanno le carattestistiche che tradizionalnelmente deve avere la pietra philosophale suo elixir ?

my best regard

Awani
02-04-2018, 08:29 PM
...this text Alchemically-Stoned-Psychedelic-Secret-Freemasonry of the Newman freemason (see various reviews and Newman's articles) just published about entogens and natural psychoactive substances and alchemy and philosopher's stone makes hypotheses and researches that perhaps?could perhaps? be interesting ?.

This is the author that I talked to that is the source of this thread. ;)

:p

Awani
10-25-2018, 12:34 AM
Mention of the philosopher's stone in writing can be found as far back as Cheirokmeta by Zosimos of Panopolis (c. 300 AD). Alchemical writers assign a longer history. Elias Ashmole and the anonymous author of Gloria Mundi (1620) claim that its history goes back to Adam who acquired the knowledge of the stone directly from God. This knowledge was said to be passed down through biblical patriarchs, giving them their longevity. The legend of the stone was also compared to the biblical history of the Temple of Solomon and the rejected cornerstone described in Psalm 118. - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone)

Anyone read Psalm 118? I have. Religiously.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

:p

White Belt
10-26-2018, 09:52 PM
Anyone read Psalm 118? I have. Religiously.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.

:p

The above passage is very close to my heart as well. The sword in the stone has been my favorite Disney movie since I was young. I think you are pretty close to the mark here maybe dead on.
After about 8 years of research which started with DMT - The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman and because of this breakthrough research then subsequent reaction of the Buddhist community he was a member of and my own ties to Taoism, Shaolin Kung Fu,Chinese Internal Alchemy and the secret Tea of the ancient Taoist masters my teacher said was magic mushrooms.

The way of the Shaman by Michael Harner led me the connection between breathing practices,fasting,plant medicine and the drum. The relation to altered states of consciousness accessed through these various shamanistic technologies was the golden thread for me. My kung fu teacher was adopted by the native americans, he now lives out on a reservation and his name is no longer Rama Ananda Das but instead Strong Bear after many visions in the sweat tents, which he continues to conduct ceremonies every other week end.

Mircea Eliade Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy, was a hefty piece of literature.

After I digested it things became clearer and I spoke with my oldest friend about my theories. The oldest pilgrims who crossed the landbridge during or after the Younger Dryas Impact Event, bringing with them their Tamil Nadu, Siberian and or Himalayan Philosophy as well as the stereotypical slanted eyes down through Native Canada, America and then to the primordial Rainforests of the Amazon. Maybe the other way around? lol

There are so many mysteries that have been uncovered. I have yet to take Ayahuasca or smoke DMT. I still feel like I can work with mushrooms for a while, either way I neither have the proper place nor the money to pursue extacting DMT or a trip to the Amazon. But I have come to a very similar place of thought regarding what the stone is or could be. I spoke with PD Newman this morning on Facebook about it.

Is it possible these yoga techniques, fasting, penance, breathing, mantra, tantra, dance and other shamanic techniques produce through some kind of trance or altered state of consciousness a type of endogenous DMT? It seems so.

What else is happening here? There is a common thread linking Western cultures with Alchemy. Alchemy seems to have a spiritual bent. Alchemy certainly has ties with some of the greatest philosophy ever written. Art, creativity, poetry, music. Geometry? Math? After taking a psychedelic substance an overflowing of these creative juices begins to flow through the taker. Almost as if none of it belongs to the Artist but is sent from some "Other".

The ties to the Holy Grail, a comet in the sky, the cathedral building period the Knights Templar and the most tumultuous period in Western European history the clashing of the Muslim and Christian empires.

You mention a legend of Adam possibly possessing the original stone I have never heard of this however I have heard of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxSyv8klhbI&ab_channel=Jundullah2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

"Islamic tradition holds that it fell from heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar. It has often been described as a meteorite"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfRDVuqipE&ab_channel=Bangladeshtv

Stones were always considered very sacred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baetylus

It took me a long time to write this, I will have to continue later with other additions.

Awani
10-26-2018, 10:17 PM
Mircea Eliade Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy, was a hefty piece of literature.

Keep in mind this guy never left his chair.


I neither have the proper place nor the money to pursue extacting DMT or a trip to the Amazon.

Extraction is not so expensive. Also there are places in the Amazon you can volunteer... if there is a will, there is a way.


Is it possible these yoga techniques, fasting, penance, breathing, mantra, tantra, dance and other shamanic techniques produce through some kind of trance or altered state of consciousness a type of endogenous DMT? It seems so.

Perhaps you can enter similar realms, but naturally create the DMT experience... I sincerely doubt it.


You mention a legend of Adam possibly possessing the original stone I have never heard of this however I have heard of this.

The Forbidden Fruit ;)

http://www.evolveandascend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/plaincouralt-adam-and-eve.jpg

Terence McKenna calls the Garden of Eden story "the worlds first drug bust".


"Islamic tradition holds that it fell from heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar. It has often been described as a meteorite".

That Mecca project looks awesome. Islam is based on older traditions, like all religions... like alchemy... and I view this "older tradition" as Shamanism.

https://i.imgur.com/SZGxZxF.jpg

:p

elixirmixer
10-26-2018, 10:51 PM
Hey Awani, I havent been able to gain the clarity to cleanse my body, and so I was thinking about having an Ayuaska adventure anyway. What are your thoughts?

Also, I believe that the "older" tradition of Islam is in fact Christianity. The Quoran speaks a lot about Jesus, John the Baptist, Elijah, Moses ect... and we know Christ was hebrew, and we know that the Hebrews learned Hermerics from the Egyptians. These Egyptians were certainly involved with somw Shamanic cultures, for example, the Australian Aboriginals.

Love the pic of the Muslim on acid. Regards.

Awani
10-26-2018, 10:58 PM
Hey Awani, I havent been able to gain the clarity to cleanse my body, and so I was thinking about having an Ayuaska adventure anyway. What are your thoughts?

If you can't achieve the clarity to cleanse your body, how can you be prepared to cleanse your mind?


I believe that the "older" tradition of Islam is in fact Christianity.

See this (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion).

But in all those religions there were "older traditions" that were adopted into the religions.

You mention the Egyptians and the Australian Aboriginals. What is the connection?

:p

elixirmixer
10-26-2018, 11:04 PM
The two races are the only ones recorded to have types of boomerangs. They have also recently found evidence of Egyptian hyroglyphics in Sydney Australia. 3 of the worlds best egyptologists verified there authenticity; only then to be paid of by 'the system' and later deny their authenticity. But it seemed highly suspicious that they were all in total agreement originally and then all of a sudden changed their minds.

There must be some other evidences, because my grade 5 teacher taught me about it at school aswell.

Awani
10-26-2018, 11:09 PM
Ah yes... You should read Bruce Fenton's "The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution (http://brucefenton.info/into-africa-theory/?fbclid=IwAR39IkW8lIv-zcqzjmse7-BCVu6SisCyJWzbv8VBuN_MxHRKQFjZjltvYME)". Had him on the podcast (http://www.naturalbornalchemist.com/episodes/2018/4/1/episode-168-the-forgotten-exodus) as well.


The Into Africa Theory disputes the claims of Out of Africa and Out of Asia (or Europe) adherents over the starting point for the migration which populated Eurasia approximately 60,000 years ago and identifies the actual location.

Amazing facts that you will encounter:

- Homo heidelbergensis was not ancestral to modern humans

- Denisovan fossils in Siberia carried DNA from Australian Aboriginals

- An Indonesian supervolcano brought about the end for multiple hominin species

- Climate catastrophe locked humans in Africa from 73,000 to 59,000 years ago

- There is no African fossil DNA over 10,000 years in age

- While supposedly isolated, Aboriginal Australians interbred with Denisovans 44,000 years ago

:p

White Belt
10-27-2018, 06:45 PM
Keep in mind this guy never left his chair.


I think I get what you mean, as in he never took the drugs??

Because if you are trying to say he didn't know what he was talking about you are way wrong. His theory was that Yoga did not come from Vedic literature but from an older source of origin, IE Shamanism.

He was not an expert in Shamanism though in that respect you are correct. He was a professor of Hinduism and Buddhism. His whole purpose for writing his book Shamanism was to search for the oldest source of all religion. So he sought out in his opinion the oldest and most archaic form he could find.

Some of the most interesting shamanic practices ever recorded are written about in his book. Not sure if you have read it or didn't like it? I loved it! He sounds like a skeptic who can't believe what is happening around him.

As to what the tree picture is... I have a hard time wrapping my head around the mushroom theory. Just looks like confirmation bias.

Awani
10-28-2018, 12:17 AM
I think I get what you mean, as in he never took the drugs??*

Because if you are trying to say he didn't know what he was talking about you are way wrong.

In many ways he did... but he ALSO did not know what he was talking about.

I mean that he did all his research in his chair. He never, as far as I know, even met a Shaman... nor did he visit any indigenous communities... but worst of all he classifies shamanism without "psychedelic plants" as a lesser form. I am from the "school" that shamanism "without" such plants is a form of shamanism that is severely crippled.

Are you using the term "confirmation bias" when discussing the Garden of Eden? LOL. No one knows for sure anything about the Bible, so no one can really "confirm" anything. To me the evidence is pretty obvious.

:p

* I personally dislike using the term "drugs"... everything is a drug... but most people don't have that view, and they use the term drugs to describe heroin, coke etc... and I don't think psychedelic plants deserve the use of the term drugs.

Warmheart
12-29-2018, 05:10 PM
Mode note: Posts moved from here (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5895-Philosophical-Stone-from-Acacia-An-Interactive-Journal-of-Methods-and-Journeys.)


I have gained all the knowledge I could ever need, and the wisdom and understanding to know that its irrelevant, as is the notion of power. I have been shown, directly, how All is One, very literally, how time is malleable construct just like the rest of the creation (matter, energy, etc), how it all weaves and flows and spirals, and turns in on itself; how it is absolutely perfect, and not just the big things - but the small, intricate, and personal goings-ons of each experience and daily life, struggle, success, failure, birth, death, etc.
The irony is that my original goal to obtain such an understanding, has shown how silly that goal was. lol :D
All of it is silly, and thats why its a divine comedy - a perfect joke. :p
That is a very good experience. This is a big accomplishment, which is Siddhi, it allows you to enter the mind of any person, to see whereabouts of any thing and many other wonderful things - at least that's when we speak about authentic Siddhi.

Either it is your Russian language translated into English, or it is simply the way you are or present yourself... but I always "hear" your posts in a very cynical, negative or depressed way. Probably projection on my part.

In either case concerning improvements I think they can be life changing... and it can take months or years for the changes to be visible/noticeable.
Actually I am totally not cynical/negative or depressed :) That's why I always point it out. People can do various funny stuff in this world, get thrill from it, good or bad experience, etc. But I don't think it is right to give things the names which aren't appropriate.

Psychodelic stuff is a big no-no in authentic Traditions, with some exceptions, but those exceptions and exceptional practices have very specific rules and goals. One of the reasons why it is so, is because vulgar use of this stuff gives you nothing but illusions and it is capable of fracturing your spirit and weakening you in many ways.

I don't like Christianity and Bible, but they have some of their own little interesting things, and some of their Russian esoteric movements describe the dangers of illusions - those which can be produced by psychodelics and which can be produced by various practices. They call it "falling into the beauty" ("vpadenie v prelest'"). I am not sure if they use different name for it in English language, but so is its name in Russian.

People can do what they want, can get fun the way they want, can use whatever they want. It is all fine for as long as they don't say it is "Philosopher's Stone" or "the way of Tibetan Monks". How can you consider psychodelics be part of it when they are frowned upon by old Traditions?

Pride is big obstacle for many practitioners. They think that they experienced something outstanding, while it is just some useless child toys. You think that people of the past never tried that stuff? Would they spend their time writing huge books and guiding their disciples if it is all about getting smoke of some stuff and there you go?

Yet again, I am not against if people like to use psychodelics :) I am not saying that it is good or bad :) I am simply against profanation of old teachings. I wasn't entering such threads until attempts to name this stuff as P.S. and putting it on par with Eastern Traditions.

With warm friendly love to you all :cool:

Awani
12-29-2018, 05:22 PM
Psychodelic stuff is a big no-no in authentic Traditions... when they are frowned upon by old Traditions?

Here you are totally wrong in my opinion. Please read this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5529-DMT-is-the-Stone&p=54953#post54953) post for details on "my" model.

Shamanism is the name of the game. And psychedelics + shamanism are 100 % connected. This is without a doubt. Any other tradition that you seem to rate "important" are only an offspring of shamanism in the grand scheme of things. The only reason "later" traditions are revered and studied by modern humans is because shamanism is an experiential tradition and and oral tradition i.e. no books.


You think that people of the past never tried that stuff? Would they spend their time writing huge books and guiding their disciples if it is all about getting smoke of some stuff and there you go?

I know people have used psychedelics in the past, in fact it is the basis for the whole evolution of the human race up until what Terence McKenna calls the entry of the Dominator Culture... what I call the rise of the Paternal Culture (inspired by another thread with Andro).


... if it is all about getting smoke of some stuff and there you go?

Yes, is it not ironic. LOL. However it is not that simple. Smoking it is not the whole story... the integration can take weeks, months and years... for some a whole lifetime... keep in mind that smoking DMT is "not" a traditional method... that is something "new" in a sense. I personally rate other psychedelics higher like ayahuasca and iboga, and they should be used in a traditional ceremonial setting.

However many people do not have that possibility, financial or otherwise, and therefore smokeable DMT is a good option and completely valid in my opinon. And for many people smoking DMT is very difficult. It is not easy. Even Seth-Ra might have the most difficult experience ahead of him... we shall see... ;)

We can call whatever we want the Philosopher's Stone, we can call whatever we want whatever we want. You don't have the authority nor does anyone else... but in my experience, and based on my research, DMT is more The Stone than anything else I have come across... especially if you receive it orally rather than smoking it. Even though both contain DMT there is a clear and distinct difference that cannot be argued, in my opinion.

Now if someone creates "another" type of alchemical stone in order to make gold or prolong life, and they want to call it "The Stone"... sure go right ahead... I don't care. For me those are not valid reasons to make a Stone... and "this" Stone I speak of have far greater advantages and healing properties, not only in this life but in the next. I'm in it for the long haul...

:p

Seth-Ra
12-30-2018, 12:14 PM
That is a very good experience. This is a big accomplishment, which is Siddhi, it allows you to enter the mind of any person, to see whereabouts of any thing and many other wonderful things - at least that's when we speak about authentic Siddhi.

:)



Psychodelic stuff is a big no-no in authentic Traditions, with some exceptions, but those exceptions and exceptional practices have very specific rules and goals. One of the reasons why it is so, is because vulgar use of this stuff gives you nothing but illusions and it is capable of fracturing your spirit and weakening you in many ways.

You should watch this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r15ckOaXuSA

After the first experience or so, and having spent over half my life practicing "traditional" practical alchemy, and even utilizing some really dangerous elements like we know for a fact the ancients did, a lot, I came to the same conclusion as the guy in the video here, who has studied and teaches traditional internal methods. Practical lab alchemy's stones, when ingested by a person, trigger the "death sequence" so that the brain will produce and use its own DMT - body, in accordance with the Spirit and Will, can then rework those materials and recover, even improve the health. But its triggering the same mental and spiritual effect - and its the mental and spiritual goings-ons that are handling and changing the body.
In ancient china, those who drank the mercury and sulfur concoction considered to be the "elixir of immortality", and died while under its influence, were said to be blessed and immortal. (no doubt because it triggered their death sequence... though a bit to well - but the goal was the deeper experience, not terrestrial/fractal continuation.)


I don't like Christianity and Bible, but they have some of their own little interesting things, and some of their Russian esoteric movements describe the dangers of illusions - those which can be produced by psychodelics and which can be produced by various practices. They call it "falling into the beauty" ("vpadenie v prelest'"). I am not sure if they use different name for it in English language, but so is its name in Russian.

People are daily blinded by illusions and their own presumptions of reality. Such is their default method, until the Macro shows them The Truth. (which, like death, is inevitable. ;) )
The goal, as they say, is "to die before you die, so that you won't die when you die." :D


People can do what they want, can get fun the way they want, can use whatever they want. It is all fine for as long as they don't say it is "Philosopher's Stone" or "the way of Tibetan Monks". How can you consider psychodelics be part of it when they are frowned upon by old Traditions?

All the oldest traditions either used outside sources, or physical practices that triggered internal reactions that are the same thing. (especially DMT)


Pride is big obstacle for many practitioners. They think that they experienced something outstanding, while it is just some useless child toys. You think that people of the past never tried that stuff? Would they spend their time writing huge books and guiding their disciples if it is all about getting smoke of some stuff and there you go?

They wrote about a Microcosm of the Macrocosm - about being able to have all obscurity flee from you, to see the underlining workings of the totality of creation and to have apotheosis, which is the union with what we call God, and they wrote books showing symbols, words, processes, experiments, using sound, thought, nature itself, as the very sign-posts to the Microcosmic Stone, which is also not a stone, but is the Singularity of the All, as One, within itself, for us - the fractals of itself. Its a miraculous gift, and its literally everywhere and yet still hidden...

Many wrote books and trained disciples towards a lot less; the nature of earthly/conditional love, law, base sciences, philosophy, math, war and strategy... all tiny, fractal, insignificant (though important), pieces of that Macrocosmic Arcana that the shamans sang of, the priests worshipped and devoted to, the mystery schools studied and taught of, and the alchemists actively, practically, sought after. Simplicity is its secret. ;)


Yet again, I am not against if people like to use psychodelics :) I am not saying that it is good or bad :) I am simply against profanation of old teachings. I wasn't entering such threads until attempts to name this stuff as P.S. and putting it on par with Eastern Traditions.

With warm friendly love to you all :cool:

I think its important to note the differences here in a "general psychedelic", like opium, cocaine, even caffeine, vs those things which are the epitome of sacred and do have a tradition of being so; namely what this thread is about: DMT.

Everyone knows the toad symbolism of alchemy, but did you know there is a toad who's venom contains DMT? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_toad) ;)

Thats not even counting the sacred acacia tree of the jews/christians/masons, etc - or the ayahuasca of the amazonian shamans... or as mentioned above, the countless ways of pushing the body's own production of it which is on par with the rituals and bodily sacrifice and isolation performed by many mystery sects, prophets, etc throughout the ages.
There's a better case for it being, than not being - especially once you've experienced it, rather than speculate about it. ;)




Even Seth-Ra might have the most difficult experience ahead of him... we shall see... ;)

Maybe so; and if so, I welcome it. :)



~Seth-Ra

Andro
12-30-2018, 12:15 PM
I am a very independent person
Could do everyone some good to read "The Book of Job" every now and then.
We're independent until some shit happens happens and then we become dependent.
Some people go as far as take their own lives rather than become dependent (for reasons such as old age, disease, poverty/bankruptcy, etc...)

Awani
12-30-2018, 01:25 PM
Some people go as far as take their own lives rather than become dependent (for reasons such as old age, disease, poverty/bankruptcy, etc...)

Independence is the power to ask for help. ;)

What you describe sounds more like an egomaniac to me... but sure, dosage is everything... so too much independence could lead to suicide, I guess... I personally would never go down that route, and I always say that if I die and the report says suicide, then it is 110 % certain I have been murdered. :)

:p

Andro
12-30-2018, 01:44 PM
If I die and the report says suicide, then it is 110 % certain I have been murdered. :)
You wrote in the past that in case you are captured/imprisoned (or worse), you reserve the right to take your own life. So maybe it's not 110%?

Awani
12-30-2018, 04:35 PM
You wrote in the past that in case you are captured/imprisoned (or worse), you reserve the right to take your own life. So maybe it's not 110%?

I’ve changed my mind.

:p

Warmheart
12-30-2018, 04:36 PM
Could do everyone some good to read "The Book of Job" every now and then.
We're independent until some shit happens happens and then we become dependent.
Some people go as far as take their own lives rather than become dependent (for reasons such as old age, disease, poverty/bankruptcy, etc...)
Indeed.

That's also what make real Philsopsher's Stone, non-Duality and other similar things different from fake ones. Fake ones always make you more dependent even if you don't realize it at first (e.g. dependency from chemicals which were used to get visions) and they are rather destructive, while real ones make you more independent in this world.

I wasn't as much negative (as Awani said) rather than tried to point that when your life is about to get totally ruined you will realize that most of the modern "spiritual" approaches are just bullshit and only good as some exotic hobby for bored aristocracy. When you need to solve such problems as extreme hunger, thirst or some disastrous disease, when you are in real danger of death, you need real solution. And there are real things which can help in such situations, and that's why you'll barely see any rich person showing some special knowledge and/or abilities (that's if they didn't have specific agreements with Evil Spirits, which is different and special case), it is because they never had to go through real problems and so they can't see things for what they are. While there are many hermits with immense power, whose life was always about strife until they found the way.

E. g., there was a hermit, outcast, who used a dog to eat. He was controlling that dog so it could find and eat food somewhere, while sharing vital energy (received from consumption of this food) with that man.

There are people who in states of non-Duality can see things in any place of the Earth and they can see things which are yet to come.

So speaking about this Stone, does it allow to fight troublesome life circumstances, does it actually allow to see things in non-Dual state, or it is merely an illusion? Surely it can provide some exotic feelings, everything "extra-ordinary" does so, but is there anything more to it? And I don't mean for "next life" (I never saw anyone continuing what they started from previous life), I mean for this one. And I don't mean some subjective results (e.g., now I know how world functions), I mean real results (e.g., now I know how world functions, so I can do this and this to solve such and such problem).

It reminds me one tale about mysterious mountain. That mountain was a place of pilgrimage, a lot of saints were visiting that mountain because of its glory and all of them fell down from it to their death. Then there came a wise man, climbed that mountain and saw a brilliant chariot coming to him with magnificent Divine person who looked at him and said: "Come to me, you deserve to enter the Divine worlds, come to my chariot." Wise man wanted to enter his chariot but then hesitated and said: "No, I am not worthy." Suddenly vision dissipated and he saw that he was on the very edge of the mountain and he was about to fall down.

And I ask people on this forum to understand me right, I am not criticizing them and their ways, perhaps I am wrong and the way which is discussed in this thread allows them to see all things of past, present and future and allows them to get a cure for most problems in this world.

Awani
12-30-2018, 07:04 PM
...tried to point that when your life is about to get totally ruined you will realize that most of the modern "spiritual" approaches are just bullshit and only good as some exotic hobby for bored aristocracy...

This statement is bullshit in my opinion. Of course people need to be able to make fire and fend for themselves, I don't assume we need to discuss that.

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." - Zen

However you do not seem to place any value on the human spirit. When it concerns disaster, danger of death, starvation etc... the person that survives is the one with the right attitude. I hope you agree that spending time in a Nazi camp, as a Jew, would be considered a "very bad thing". Have a look at Viktor E. Frankl's account from his book Man's Search for Meaning... to save time I'll just paste from Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning).


Frankl concludes that... life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death... for everyone in a dire condition there is someone looking down, a friend, family member, or even God, who would expect not to be disappointed. Frankl concludes from his experience that a prisoner's psychological reactions are not solely the result of the conditions of his life, but also from the freedom of choice he always has even in severe suffering. The inner hold a prisoner has on his spiritual self relies on having a hope in the future, and that once a prisoner loses that hope, he is doomed.

Frankl also concludes that there are only two races of men, decent men and indecent. No society is free of either of them, and thus there were "decent" Nazi guards and "indecent" prisoners, most notably the kapo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)) who would torture and abuse their fellow prisoners for personal gain.

One of Frankl's main claims in the book is that a positive attitude was essential to surviving the camps. Consequently, he implied that those who died had given up. However, historians have concluded that there was little connection between attitude and survival.

Don't bother taking side with the "historians" in above quote. I have little interest in "views" not based on "direct experience"...


So speaking about this Stone, does it allow to fight troublesome life circumstances, does it actually allow to see things in non-Dual state, or it is merely an illusion?

Yes, because attitude is EVERYTHING. You are going to argue, well if you are hungry no attitude is going to make you feel less hungry. That is true, but the right attitude might help you solve the problem and not be a whiny bitch.


...but is there anything more to it? I mean for this one. And I don't mean some subjective results (e.g., now I know how world functions), I mean real results (e.g., now I know how world functions, so I can do this and this to solve such and such problem).

YES. That is the whole reason I have been working with sacred plants for soon ten years. It heals. Who doesn't not want to be healed? Physically and emotionally. Every significant choice I've made in the past 10 years have been done in conversation with these Plant Teachers.

https://i.ibb.co/TTxrVvp/11111.jpg

@Andro: Perhaps the three stages Frankl describes regarding liberation will also occur even on the macrocosm version of liberation:


...the psychological reaction of the inmates to their liberation,... [is] separated into three stages. The first is depersonalization - a period of readjustment, in which a prisoner gradually returns to the world. Initially, the liberated prisoners are so numb that they are unable to understand what freedom means, or to emotionally respond to it. Part of them believes that it is an illusion or a dream that will be taken away from them. In their first foray outside their former prison, the prisoners realized that they could not comprehend pleasure. Flowers and the reality of the freedom they had dreamed about for years were all surreal, unable to be grasped in their depersonalization.

As for "The Book of Job" not sure how it is relevant? Trust in God = reward.

I was looking into Job, in case there was something I had forgotten... but nothing new came to mind... so not sure what you mean unless you had theodicy in mind. The whole point of Job is to show faith in God leads to reward, so Job is a bad example to use (which atheists often do, probably because they are not familiar with the original text).

Funnily I was - as I always do - cross-referencing the Quran and I noticed their spelling of Job is the same as a friend I have from Iraq. This guy is the most" accident prone" and "general life problem prone" individual I have ever met. So fucking funny his name is Job. LOL. Not sure I should point this out to him...

:p

Warmheart
12-30-2018, 08:22 PM
However you do not seem to place any value on the human spirit. When it concerns disaster, danger of death, starvation etc... the person that survives is the one with the right attitude. I hope you agree that spending time in a Nazi camp, as a Jew, would be considered a "very bad thing". Have a look at Viktor E. Frankl's account from his book Man's Search for Meaning... to save time I'll just paste from Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning).
This is a classic example of what Taleb names as Survivorship Bias. How many of those Jews had positive attitude but still died?

I tried to follow similar attitude in past, but it doesn't work as written in modern psychology books. So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now.

When I was born, I had no father, had no mother, had no family. I had nothing. I knew extreme hunger and thirst, I went through a couple attempts of suicide (one of which granted me this disease). Do you know how it feels when you struggle for your whole life and you see that you won't find even some small banal happiness because disease and death won't give you such time? Do you know how it feels when you are constantly being fed with crap about "inherent immortality" by people who are yet to feel REAL touch of death? Do you know how "motivating" it is to calculate your chances to be reborn as some child in Central Africa, if to assume that this "wonderful" reincarnation system actually works as people think?

Yet again, personally I have nothing against smoking, psychological sessions and such. But let's not label them as P.S. or non-Duality. I know it is hard to believe, but in this age there are still people who experienced the glimpse of both and they are totally opposite to what is being discussed here. I am saying this so that honest seekers of truth wouldn't fall victims to all this deception and were seeking for real stuff.

You might think I am some rude, negative person, but in fact I am quite gentle and peaceful, and these words are caused rather by tears of daily struggle than by anger.

YES. That is the whole reason I have been working with sacred plants for soon ten years. It heals. Who doesn't not want to be healed? Physically and emotionally. Every significant choice I've made in the past 10 years have been done in conversation with these Plant Teachers.
Indeed, plants have big healing powers. That's if you don't speak about them in the aspect of this thread: by smoking them or their chemical derivatives.

Awani
12-30-2018, 09:48 PM
...by smoking them or their chemical derivatives...

DMT is natural (everything is really), and you have it inside you... the DMT is extracted from Acacia (or other plant material)... so there is not less "plant" with smoking DMT than drinking ayahuasca, if you want to split hairs.


...had positive attitude but still died? I tried to follow similar attitude in past, but it doesn't work as written in modern psychology books..

What you seem to think "of" when I talk about attitude is not what I am talking about. I don't need to drink ayahuasca to get a "positive attitude"... that would be daft. It is far more than that... attitude is just the word I use. It is way more powerful. Allegorically it can be like being straight, smoking DMT and then you are 110 % gay. Complete flip. Hmm... not even that is a good metaphor.

You know what... it cannot be explained. Either it is experienced or it is not. That's all I can say.

But don't be fooled. Like in alchemy it is called the Great Work... drinking ayahuasca is called Working with Ayahuasca. You get what you deserve, and you have to put the work in. It is not like you are going to drink, and then become some enlightened guru. That's ridiculous. It's a process. All of it is. A long haul initiation. It cannot be explained. I am not saying that to seem mystical... it's because I cannot explain it. Like Seth-Ra... I know reading his reports about his experiences with DMT that they are a joke compared to what he went through... forget the stuff he decided to not include... I have written lengthy reports on my own experiences here in the forum. Those reports are only a superficial version of "what really went down". This is a public forum... somethings I haven't even told my wife.


So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now.

Psychedelics are a very good medicine to help the terminally ill, and help with the "dying process". Also in the Amazon there are plants that cure cancer and HIV and many other disease. It is a complete pharmacy down there.


Do you know how it feels when you struggle for your whole life and you see that you won't find even some small banal happiness because disease and death won't give you such time?

Everyone has suffered, and no one can compare person A's suffering to person B. It is all relative. Suffering is suffering, and I have had my fair share as well. It has got nothing to do with what we are talking about really... in my view.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE


Do you know how it feels when you are constantly being fed with crap about "inherent immortality" by people who are yet to feel REAL touch of death?

Projection. You don't know anything about anyone here (unless you are close friends with some in private). Don't assume.


Do you know how "motivating" it is to calculate your chances to be reborn as some child in Central Africa, if to assume that this "wonderful" reincarnation system actually works as people think?

Funny you should say. Think I already mentioned it, but I once had a very important ceremony down in the Amazon where I for several hours was physically and emotionally transported into the "life" and "body" of a child starving to death in South Sudan (or some such place). It was a totally horrible experience, and it has done nothing but given me an increase in compassion, love and gratitude. And that is why reincarnation makes sense. Because coming out of that experience I wrote in my diary that "it would probably be a good idea to life a whole life like that... you would gain way more on the grand scheme of things than being some wealthy spoilt brat in a white suburb... for sure..."

When a person reincarnate you do not start from zero. I can remember when I was a child, that I made a decision to do "different" this time. In my experience the way you paint things is not the way they are painted... but then I don't live in your reality and you don't live in mine. Nothing to do about that.


But let's not label them as P.S. or non-Duality.

P.S., sure we can agree that that is up for debate... even if it is semantics (because that's all it is). But non-Duality, lol... you can't say that... you cannot say what someone else has experienced...


...fall victims to all this deception and were seeking for real stuff...

There is noting more real than this stuff I speak about. Nothing. And shamanism + plant medicines have been used for thousands and thousands of years... probably since the Dawn of Man. Even allegorically in the Garden of Eden. LOL.

We are not discussing practical alchemy here. This is the Shamanism Sub-forum... if you want to discuss "how" to make the Stone that makes gold then go right ahead in the Practical Alchemy Sub-forum.

If you are talking about healing, the healing of mind, body and spirit... then you are in the right place... there is nothing I would put my money on more than Shamanism. If I ever get a "bad" disease I'll be on the next plane down to the Amazon. For sure.

Although Shamanism hasn't really been that big on "living forever", because there is no need... since death is an illusion anyway... no different than waking up in the morning. When an adult has a nightmare they wake up sweating, and then shrug it off as a bad dream and get up and go to work.. when a small child has a nightmare they wake up screaming, crying and refuse to go back to sleep... why? Because they take the dream seriously.

----------------------------------------------------

Look, you are probably in the mental state you need to be in to further the game... and I am in the state I need to be in...

Rumi never fails... I'll end my ramblings with some real wisdom (in my opinion):

"Even if you lose yourself in wrath for a hundred thousand years, at the end you will discover, it is me [the Divine Mystery], who is the culmination of your dreams."

:p

Warmheart
12-30-2018, 10:50 PM
Psychedelics are a very good medicine to help the terminally ill. Also in the Amazon there are plants that cure cancer and HIV and many other disease. It is a complete pharmacy down there.
I don't say that various plants and minerals don't have any good qualities. No, each of them has their own Spirit and their own qualities. I am simply stating that some methods of use and results from particular plants are quite overestimated.

Everyone has suffered, and no one can compare person A's suffering to person B.
I wouldn't say so. Story in Book of Job is very interesting on many levels. There is always someone who has less sufferings, someone who has more. Some say that suffering is showing Divine favor, those who don't suffer simply means that Gods gave up on them. I think there is some truth in these words.

Projection. You don't know anything about anyone here (unless you are close friends with some in private). Don't assume.
I am not talking only about people here. There are a lot of such people around me outside of this forum. Actually, it became very popular nowadays to use huge rose glasses with everything that concerns death. Perhaps to put people's attention away from what actually is THE most important thing to deal with in this world.

Funny you should say. Think I already mentioned it, but I once had a very important ceremony down in the Amazon where I for several hours was physically and emotionally transported into the "life" and "body" of a child starving to death in South Sudan (or some such place). It was a totally horrible experience, and it has done nothing but given me an increase in compassion, love and gratitude.
There are some interesting classic tales about Genies in the lamp. Once bound there, they thought to give a lot of power and money to whoever will free them. As centuries were passing, genies were thinking that they will simply say "thanks" and that's it. After more centuries passed, genies were thinking about how they will make their savor die the most horrible death.

So and here. Love, compassion and gratitude are there while you don't experience big suffering yourself on daily basis. In worst case you yourself become the source of problems for others, you become criminal or malefic. In rare good case you realize that there should be something more to this world, and you start digging in the very core of all things, discarding fluff on the surface.

Suffering of the other is always an abstract concept, even if it causes you to feel compassion, even if you try to live it for a day. You need to live it for whole life to know what does it mean to have broken dreams, to be constantly denied something which most of the world gets for free. That's when you live in nightmare and want to awake but you can't. That's when you see fear and disgust masked by pity in the eyes of the others. That's when you can't use your teachings and eat them, your body will require real food, real water, real warm. That's when you will feel touch of death, will you be calming yourself that it is just illusion?

Yet again, it is always abstract when it doesn't happening with you and right now.

We are not discussing practical alchemy here. This is the Shamanism Sub-forum... if you want to discuss "how" to make the Stone that makes gold then go right ahead in the Practical Alchemy Sub-forum.
Yes, you are right, I came here because of equations people made of DMT with P.S. and non-Duality, because I think it is not fair to make such direct equations.

Although Shamanism hasn't really been that big on "living forever", because there is no need... since death is an illusion anyway... no different than waking up in the morning. When an adult has a nightmare they wake up sweating, and then shrug it off as a bad dream and get up and go to work.. when a small child has a nightmare they wake up screaming, crying and refuse to go back to sleep... why? Because they take the dream seriously.

:p
It depends on how deep you dig it. There are ancient lines of Shamanic Tradition which come from the source which I can't name on public. Some of those are still left in Syberia, but most of what can be openly found is in the stage of degradation. There is a big focus in those lines on prolonging one's existence through various ways and means. As you probably realize this is a very highly sought power, so it it is hidden among vast abundance of what represents, if to put it gently, exoteric part of Shamanic Tradition.

If you dig it deep enough, you will see that all old Traditions have branches (if not fully dedicated themselves), which deal exclusively with prolongation of life by various means (by prolongation I mean nigh immortality). That also includes Shamanic Tradition.

"This world is illusion, death is illusion" is a very modern New Age nonsense and misunderstanding of old teachings. Only those who achieved powers above those of gods can say that this world is illusion (because even gods are subject to this "illusion"), only they can be right in some sense of this word. But I highly doubt that there are such people on this forum who reached such state.

Awani
12-31-2018, 12:50 AM
I am simply stating that some methods of use and results from particular plants are quite overestimated.

My experience says otherwise.


Suffering of the other is always an abstract concept, even if it causes you to feel compassion, even if you try to live it for a day. You need to live it for whole life to know what does it mean to have broken dreams, to be constantly denied something which most of the world gets for free. That's when you live in nightmare and want to awake but you can't. That's when you see fear and disgust masked by pity in the eyes of the others. That's when you can't use your teachings and eat them, your body will require real food, real water, real warm. That's when you will feel touch of death, will you be calming yourself that it is just illusion?

It's so funny... you really don't get it... you cannot say what I can use MY teachings for... you don't know anything about them, nor will you ever... they are for me, and me alone... they would not work for you at this point in the game (nor anyone else)...


...because I think it is not fair to make such direct equations.

Well it is not illegal to think anything.


It depends on how deep you dig it. There are ancient lines of Shamanic Tradition which come from the source which I can't name on public. Some of those are still left in Syberia, but most of what can be openly found is in the stage of degradation.

I am well aware of the Siberian and Arctic Circle shamanism and the indigenous peoples of the region. Not only am I somewhat married into that "group", but I also work and are friends with - and visit - those communities... after all I live there. ;)


"This world is illusion, death is illusion" is a very modern New Age nonsense and misunderstanding of old teachings. Only those who achieved powers above those of gods can say that this world is illusion (because even gods are subject to this "illusion"), only they can be right in some sense of this word. But I highly doubt that there are such people on this forum who reached such state.

This is simply not true. Your tactic of calling anything you disagree with "new age nonsense" reminds me of JDP calling anything he disagrees with "then jump of a cliff". LOL.

It is true that "illusion" is not a word they would use... they probably use "thought" or "dream"... same concept. But it is ignorant to think that indigenous cultures around the world don't have a cosmology that implies that this world is a temporary realm sprung from a dream or a thought of the Divine Mystery (or whatever they call it). I am not making it up, nor have I read it in a New Age book. I get my indigenous knowledge from indigenous people. And if that is not possible I study anthropology. You don't have to have a power greater than gods to say this world is an illusion. I don't have that power and I've said it multiple times.

May I inquire what experiences you have had with psychedelics? And if so, what kind and in what set and setting did you do it?

:p

Awani
12-31-2018, 01:19 AM
People are daily blinded by illusions and their own presumptions of reality.

I missed this post... also moved most of the posts here from your DMT report... the debate regarding DMT being the stone or not should not clutter your report. IMO.

Always good to quote my own slogan (often not understood I think): Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

It means that:

Reality is an illusion.
But reality is also real.
Reality should not be experienced as only an illusion.
Nor should it be experienced as only real.
To do so would be delusional.

Don’t let the illusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion, could be another way to say it... but it has a different meaning.

Reality is so powerful that it can be difficult to accept the reality of the illusion, that's why I prefer to say don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

Fuck. My head alway spins on that one.

Don't let the delusion of being awake confuse you regarding the lucidity of the dream. = easier way to think about it*

:p

* I'm writing to understand myself here... lol... jeez...

Warmheart
12-31-2018, 07:43 AM
I am well aware of the Siberian and Arctic Circle shamanism and the indigenous peoples of the region. Not only am I somewhat married into that "group", but I also work and are friends with - and visit - those communities... after all I live there. ;)
So you have a lot of opportunities to dig deeper :)

You probably realize that in each sphere of human activity 95% of it is total garbage, and only 5% is worth something. And only 0,3% is really outstanding. These numbers aren't made up, it is reflection of 68-95-99,7 rule.

So and with modern Shamanic Tradition. 95% of its representatives have no clue what they are talking about, only 5% have an understanding, and only 0,3% actually achieved something.

Dig deeper for those 5% and 0,3%.

It is true that "illusion" is not a word they would use... they probably use "thought" or "dream"... same concept. But it is ignorant to think that indigenous cultures around the world don't have a cosmology that implies that this world is a temporary realm sprung from a dream or a thought of the Divine Mystery (or whatever they call it). I am not making it up, nor have I read it in a New Age book. I get my indigenous knowledge from indigenous people. And if that is not possible I study anthropology. You don't have to have a power greater than gods to say this world is an illusion. I don't have that power and I've said it multiple times.
Yes, this world is temporary realm, yes it is sprung from a dream (in a way). But all of it is said from the point of view of those powers, which are way beyond gods. Those teachings don't usually say that when dream is over, then all existence except that which is "Beyond" is over. To perceive and realize what is "Beyond", what is Supreme Reality - this is the last step on progress, when you already obtained godlike powers. It was much easier to obtain such powers and interact with gods in ancient times, hence we have such teachings. But mankind fell down from its former grace. Western world has myths about exile from Eden, murder of Abel, deluge and Babel - all of them describing gradual downfall of human from being godlike down to a piece of mortal flesh.

There was a specific ancient word to describe "illusion", actually it meant something entirely else: it meant "measures/dimensions". Its opposite is totally devoid of that, its opposite is basically nothing, only that which is "Beyond".

May I inquire what experiences you have had with psychedelics? And if so, what kind and in what set and setting did you do it?
I used plant of Pythian Oracles for purposes of divination (I can't right it openly here, if you are very interested, I can write it to you in PM). While it is very helping in that aspect, everything has its price. Average man has a lot of garbage in his head. Once he becomes open to external powers, all that garbage reveals itself. In case with Pythian plant, visions become muddied by that garbage, it is a whole science on itself to get rid of it.

Other aspect is that when you are using plants in this way, you are giving your body as a temporary home for the Spirit which was in the plant. You can feel it, you can feel as some power seizes your body. It means big turmoil for the energetic structure of man and might cause dysfunction of major energy channels, thus blocking your way of progress. Afterwards you might get some funny glitches and such, but they merely point that something went horribly wrong.

There is also another dangerous thing which might happen. Human's "lower spirit" isn't simple entity, it is complex entity. It consists of myriads of sub-entities, among which there are chief energies, who temporarily have power over human until some other big sub-entity replaces it. When you suffer through energy turmoil, there is a big chance that some of chief sub-entities will go out of control of "one whole spirit", and you might experience presence of someone else, even see it and talk with it. While it is possible to have visit of external entities, who talk with you and such - it is a hard labor to do so and it is achieved by totally different means.

It is quite easy to cause those sub-entities to "appear", but it is very hard to make yourself being whole again. It is totally opposite to spiritual progress and there are signs which can be used as measure of it: progress is always accompanied by Siddhis - that's when you can use your knowledge and power to make direct changes in this reality (all comes at a price though), while fake progress with sub-entities remains just that - nice visions, exotic experience and loss of power as result (even if it doesn't look like that from first glance). It also leads to a horrible death if it wasn't horrible enough. Shattered spirit will be totally shattered after its holding "vessel" is broken, each piece of it might find a new life in some defected form - some defected plant and/or some awful bug and/or some disabled child. Chance of progress to be totally wasted and undone, nullified altogether, all of it because of being deluded by those who are deluded themselves.

You don't have to listen to what I write, I am not writing it so that you changed your mind or rethought your approaches, I am merely expanding on what I wrote before and to answer your questions. I am also writing it to those, who might read this thread and is considering this approach as part of spiritual progress, to warn them about negative consequences.

Florius Frammel
12-31-2018, 09:18 AM
Please allow me a short question to all of you.

There are people comparing believe systems with modern tech anologies.
Different religions/worldviews are here considered as different operating systems like Windows, Linux, MacOS,..

Then there is another level behind, or beyond that OS. Some call it BIOS, or Motherboard, or the sum of a computer's components.

Of course every supporter of a religion/worldview thinks his view is the closest possible to the "level behind".

What makes you so sure that your concept of "entities" is not just an OS as well, comparable to catholicism with all the saints for example?

zoas23
12-31-2018, 09:27 AM
There are many valuable practices, most of them are not alchemy (which is not surprising).

The thread is interesting, but I don't see any relationship between DMT and the "alchemical stone"... Which is not something that makes DMT less "interesting"... But it sounds to me as stating that DMT is the true Kung-Fu, when it's obviously a different practice.

Most of the valuable/interesting/transcendental practices are not "alchemy"... Which does not make them less interesting.

Of course, it is possible to establish a resemblance between almost everything... Architecture can get connected with human psychology, as much as it would be possible to establish connections between psychology and architecture... And yet such thing doesn't mean that psychology is the true architecture and viceversa. Similarities? Probably... The same thing? Certainly not. Such fact doesn't make any of the 2 practices become worthless... Simply different.

Awani
12-31-2018, 10:01 AM
Of course every supporter of a religion/worldview thinks his view is the closest possible to the "level behind".

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I support all religions and worldview... I am not limited to one, the only thing is I try to frame it from the shamanism perspective.


What makes you so sure that your concept of "entities" is not just an OS as well, comparable to catholicism with all the saints for example?

Nothing is certain in this world, but my touch of grace by the hand of god is not an OS at all. It is my experience. That's all I can say about it.


...but I don't see any relationship between DMT and the "alchemical stone"...

That's why the thread is called DMT is the Stone.

:p

Awani
12-31-2018, 10:12 AM
So and with modern Shamanic Tradition. 95% of its representatives have no clue what they are talking about, only 5% have an understanding, and only 0,3% actually achieved something.

I go to the source when it concerns shamanism... and I go as deep as I can go as a white man... there will always be restrictions due to what I look like, which is fine considering what "white people" have done to these people.


To perceive and realize what is "Beyond", what is Supreme Reality - this is the last step on progress, when you already obtained godlike powers. It was much easier to obtain such powers and interact with gods in ancient times, hence we have such teachings. But mankind fell down from its former grace. Western world has myths about exile from Eden, murder of Abel, deluge and Babel - all of them describing gradual downfall of human from being godlike down to a piece of mortal flesh.

We can never fully "know" the Mystery. And I suspect neither can the Mystery itself.

Regarding "the Fall", that is propaganda. We never fell. We forgot.


There was a specific ancient word to describe "illusion... can't right it openly here, if you are very interested, I can write it to you in PM...

You often talk in this "can't say openly" language... I dislike that. Everything on the table or nothing. Unless it is your exact location, or something personal, there is no reason to withhold anything... it is a game of manipulation to sound "bigger" or "mysterious"...


I used plant of Pythian Oracles for purposes of divination...

This basically makes all your arguments regarding this topic moot.

I would never try and tell, for example, Andro: try and pray in this way and chant this song when you do your soul retrieval healing

Why not?

Because I have never done it myself, so what the hell do I know. I know nothing about it. I can ask dumb questions, which I do... but until I perform such feats myself I cannot say much about it.

:p

Seth-Ra
12-31-2018, 11:34 AM
So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now.

Here lies the crux of your problem. You have a disease, which highlights your timer in this form running out; the same thing that is true for everyone, regardless of circumstance, and because its highlighted for you, you choose to focus on combating the inevitable, exhausting yourself, wasting your time here on the pursuit of... an idea, an idea born of fear of the inevitable and the unknown (to you).

Lets say you're given 5 years to live. You spend 4 looking for a cure - find it, and thusly gained another year before your already ravaged body succumbs to inevitability. You wasted 4 out of 6 kicking and screaming against the universe like a child throwing a tantrum. If you just would truly see, you could live in the time you have, not use it to complain about the time you don't, and assume others aren't in the same boat, as if you're somehow special or different, "touched by death" and all. :rolleyes:

Thats the problem with a lot of people - to busy not living because they are afraid of dying... a sentiment usually expressed and realized when its to late.


When I was born, I had no father, had no mother, had no family. I had nothing. I knew extreme hunger and thirst, I went through a couple attempts of suicide (one of which granted me this disease).

So, because life dealt you a rough hand (something that happens to many, if not most of the world...) you decided to be a victim, acted on that, making your highlighted timer literally of your own making, by your own choice - or better said, by your own attitude towards your surroundings.

Huh, its raining and I don't have an umbrella like some other people, guess I'll go hold up a lightning rod and yell at the sky. Shit, that lightning hurt and now I'm worse off than before - how cruel of the world. :rolleyes:


Do you know how it feels when you struggle for your whole life and you see that you won't find even some small banal happiness because disease and death won't give you such time?

I read that like "Do you know how it feels to be entitled your whole life and think that you somehow deserve to be anywhere other than where you put yourself? My neighbor can afford a new car - why can't I?! I deserve happiness! *sigh* Guess I'll have to keep searching for it..." *fills grocery cart with alcohol*

:p

I mean really though, you presume to know other people's situations and life stories, and act like you're in some special position of suffering (its a "new age" idea that the more oppressed and victimized you are, the more right/righteous you are, just saying. :p) and that none of us can possibly understand, as if we aren't also human, with expiration dates, or suffering, or loss, or struggle... yet you perfectly demonstrate how one's attitude and approach to life, determines their outcome. Plenty have grown up in the gutters and on the streets, surrounded by hunger, thirst, the harsh elements, drug and gang violence, and rose above it to be successful millionaires, or even just happy people with nice families, with all the needs and many wants provided for themselves and their kids. They usually get there via hard work, and the right attitude. Perhaps you don't deserve the things you feel so entitled to. ;)


Do you know how it feels when you are constantly being fed with crap

Absolutely...


Do you know how "motivating" it is to calculate your chances to be reborn as some child in Central Africa, if to assume that this "wonderful" reincarnation system actually works as people think?

You're badly hung up on the whole reincarnation thing - makes it clear you think entirely to linearly to really "grasp" the whole "time" thing... but aside from that, I have often imagined myself in such a place, and if any spark of who I am in this form remains (which is the only reason you'd care in the first place about "ending up there") - Im pretty sure I could do some good for those I'd be growing up around.

If your version of enlightenment is to become immortal in this one form, and go into secluded hiding, effectively telling the rest of the world to fuck off, except for maybe some "worthy" to find you... well that says a lot about you.
I'd rather "play the game" infinitely, be, enjoy being, no matter how, and help my fellow fractals/Self - because we are all one and we all exist together for a reason.


Yet again, personally I have nothing against smoking, psychological sessions and such. But let's not label them as P.S. or non-Duality. I know it is hard to believe, but in this age there are still people who experienced the glimpse of both and they are totally opposite to what is being discussed here. I am saying this so that honest seekers of truth wouldn't fall victims to all this deception and were seeking for real stuff.

You are not in a position to determine what is "real" vs "deception" when it comes to this topic. You are simply presuming, because you don't understand, nor have apparently experienced the topic at hand. You couldn't warn anyone if you wanted to, because you don't know.


You might think I am some rude, negative person, but in fact I am quite gentle and peaceful, and these words are caused rather by tears of daily struggle than by anger.

I don't think you're rude. You are negative, whether you realize it or not. You very well may be gentle and peaceful as well - but whether by struggle or anger, it makes no difference, your words are born of fear and are thusly the same. Ignorant, and fearful. Nothing more, nothing less.


Indeed, plants have big healing powers. That's if you don't speak about them in the aspect of this thread: by smoking them or their chemical derivatives.

Awani mostly speaks of ayahuasca, but I have not had such - though I am using the sacred acacia tree. But what I'm extracting from it, has little to do with the acacia itself; the DMT is the substance that your brain naturally produces during meditations and visions, and spiritual experiences, as well as the moment of death. It is present, not just in plants, but in animals - in all of us. We extract it from plants because its easiest, and we do so from those that have a large content of it in them (relatively speaking). Funny how the plants that have high concentrations of them, have been considered sacred for centuries. Must be a coincidence...


I missed this post... also moved most of the posts here from your DMT report... the debate regarding DMT being the stone or not should not clutter your report. IMO.

Yes, it seems many missed that post. I covered and mentioned a lot of what is being repeatedly brought up, in that post, incase anyone missed it. (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5529-DMT-is-the-Stone&p=61861#post61861)

I do appreciate the separation of the threads as well. :)
I'll also reiterate some things I said in the other one, perhaps word them better...


Always good to quote my own slogan (often not understood I think): Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

It means that:

Reality is an illusion.
But reality is also real.
Reality should not be experienced as only an illusion.
Nor should it be experienced as only real.
To do so would be delusional.

Donít let the illusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion, could be another way to say it... but it has a different meaning.

Reality is so powerful that it can be difficult to accept the reality of the illusion, that's why I prefer to say donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

Fuck. My head alway spins on that one.

Don't let the delusion of being awake confuse you regarding the lucidity of the dream. = easier way to think about it*

:p


I like your slogan, and have for a while now. It makes sense.



There are many valuable practices, most of them are not alchemy (which is not surprising).

The thread is interesting, but I don't see any relationship between DMT and the "alchemical stone"...

DMT is a white or yellow crystalline stone in its pure form, and it oxidizes into a yellow to red (depending on concentration, I've found) oil, that dissolves in wine/alcohol, is present in every living thing, and is the chemical component of all naturally occurring (no other outside substance used) visions/spiritual interactions - and is even the key used at the moment of death, and thusly if certain "lethal" alchemical concoctions are made, can trigger the use of it in the body, as it simulates death.
It literally removes the veil and puts you before the Throne of the All/One.
How is it not the alchemical stone? lol


Of course, it is possible to establish a resemblance between almost everything... Architecture can get connected with human psychology, as much as it would be possible to establish connections between psychology and architecture... And yet such thing doesn't mean that psychology is the true architecture and viceversa. Similarities? Probably... The same thing? Certainly not. Such fact doesn't make any of the 2 practices become worthless... Simply different.

Except that we aren't comparing lumber to bio-chemical compounds... but if we were to do so, it would be more accurately represented with gingerbread.

https://i.ibb.co/s20d05d/gingerbread.png

Seems a lot of you guys are the ones screaming from the existential crisis, while some of us laugh because its a joke. :D


Please allow me a short question to all of you.

There are people comparing believe systems with modern tech anologies.
Different religions/worldviews are here considered as different operating systems like Windows, Linux, MacOS,..

Then there is another level behind, or beyond that OS. Some call it BIOS, or Motherboard, or the sum of a computer's components.

Of course every supporter of a religion/worldview thinks his view is the closest possible to the "level behind".

What makes you so sure that your concept of "entities" is not just an OS as well, comparable to catholicism with all the saints for example?

That is a fair question - except to the point where we aren't discussing a "religion" or a "paradigm to see the world by", but rather, ripping away those things, and seeing a singular thread of continuity in all of them, which again relates back to this single chemical compound - which is itself just the physical expression of a catalyst that allows us to 'touch' the All/One, or as Awani calls it, the Mystery.

As Ive said elsewhere, the continuity of this Thing cannot be understated, or ignored.




I used plant of Pythian Oracles for purposes of divination (I can't right it openly here, if you are very interested, I can write it to you in PM). While it is very helping in that aspect, everything has its price. Average man has a lot of garbage in his head. Once he becomes open to external powers, all that garbage reveals itself. In case with Pythian plant, visions become muddied by that garbage, it is a whole science on itself to get rid of it.

Like Awani said above, your argument on this topic is moot; comparing DMT to anything else (imo) is like comparing "yes" and "no".



I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I support all religions and worldview... I am not limited to one, the only thing is I try to frame it from the shamanism perspective.

I'm pretty much the same way, though I frame/flavor it from the alchemical stand point. There again, the singular continuity of it all, regardless of our personal preferential framework, and the fact that it does fit all of them, and has been known to all of them, and is within all of them, showcases its validity.


Nothing is certain in this world, but my touch of grace by the hand of god is not an OS at all. It is my experience. That's all I can say about it.

Therein lies the point; experience.
Everyone can armchair-philosophize and presume, and assume, all they want, about any topic. But until you've first hand experienced It (whether smoking the pure thing, drinking the brew, or subjugating the body to the extremes that causes its own production of it, which is the goal of all internal spiritual disciplines...), then you simply don't know, and won't, until you are made to. (funny thing that, inevitability.)



That's why the thread is called DMT is the Stone. :p

Indeed, good Sir. :p



~Seth-Ra

Andro
12-31-2018, 11:55 AM
Everyone is hereby kindly but firmly asked to refrain from further evaluating/judging/quantifying the lives and experiences of other people.

PS: Unless they pay you for it :p

Thank you.
- The Management :cool:

Andro
12-31-2018, 12:28 PM
Personally, I don't use exogenous catalysts. So I cannot (and will not) comment without having direct experience. I have however worked with people who are using (or have used) psychedelics, and there are "side effects", but I am in no position to quantify them. One thing I can attest to is that there is always a "price" to pay. But sometimes the merchandise appears to be worth it... So shop wisely! :)

About the shamanic healing work I do, after my services being publicly available for over 16 years now, I still cannot say for sure how exactly it works. It's a bit like "science", in the sense that it is better at describing than at explaining. Bottom line - it does work and people do get better. In the words of Queen: "It's a Kind of Magic". And there is more than one road to Rome.

Warmheart
12-31-2018, 12:32 PM
What makes you so sure that your concept of "entities" is not just an OS as well, comparable to catholicism with all the saints for example?
It all comes down to the results. There is truth and there are real results. E.g, it either snows here right at this moment or it doesn't. If it snows but someone says that it doesn't and insists that there can be multiple truths, well, that's when we start seeing corruptions. That's when we can say, using your terms, that we can't use this OS to launch applications. You either get real results or you get error in code, which can lead to various glitches. Some people take those glitches for real results.

I go to the source when it concerns shamanism... and I go as deep as I can go as a white man... there will always be restrictions due to what I look like, which is fine considering what "white people" have done to these people.
To get extra-ordinary results, you need to put extra-ordinary efforts. Even "non-white" people have to go through a lot of trials before they will be allowed to access in deeper mysteries. But if you are sincere seeker, if you yearn for real things, if you disregard illusions and easy but fake answers which stand on your way, then Gods themselves might show you their favor and light your path.

Regarding "the Fall", that is propaganda. We never fell. We forgot.
Mankind fell. One of big examples - extremely short lifespan.

You often talk in this "can't say openly" language... I dislike that. Everything on the table or nothing. Unless it is your exact location, or something personal, there is no reason to withhold anything... it is a game of manipulation to sound "bigger" or "mysterious"...
I know what I know because I sacrificed a lot of time and money for that. I like to share and I openly share what I can, but there are things which costed me a lot. Also knowledge goes with power - when you start sharing it, your own power will start diminishing. If to make parallel with billionaire - if he will start giving away all his belongings, he will stop being billionaire.

This forum is being visited by many guests, a lot of whom belong to that kind of people whom I greatly despise. I am not some kind of charity which helps various jerks who then use your information in order to corrupt it and make as their teaching and make money off that. I passed through that stage several times and I don't want to repeat this mistake anymore. Everything that concerns details of my private practice I can share only with whom I really trust and who really knows the price of that knowledge. After all, it is you who asked me if I used anything myself and not me who said it first "I used some plant but I won't tell you details". If that wasn't the case, then I ask you to forgive me for my behavior.

It might also help you in your search, wise people might look like some good, loving elderly, but they are not charity either. Power is not public domain, it is attribute of a few. There is strict hierarchical system in place where 95% (see the rule) don't even have clue about power, 5% have some kind of access to it and only 0,3% actually have it and can apply it. If you share it with everyone, you become part of 95% with them, because you gave them away your upper hand, and now noone has upper hand anymore - that's like teaching everyone how to make gold, so then gold becomes cheap as dirt and noone can benefit from it anymore. By attempting to learn from wise people, you are about to ask for something which is more intimate than CVC code of their bank card, you are about to ask for something which is the dream of any king or oligarch, you must realize that this requires THE maximum level of trust possible between people, more so than between closest friends, wife and husband, parents and their children. It isn't even about "white", "red" or "black" people.

If you come to them with attitude that you already know how this world works, they will smoke some herb with you, smile at you, joke, nod and compliment your results, because you are a lost cause, you don't have capabilities of disciple, you don't have capability to learn because you already think that you "know the Mystery". And they will go do real things after you leave them. You might already have some good and wise person among indigenous shamans but who decided against teaching you because you took some cheap illusions for real thing.

Just please, don't take it as offense. *Friendly hug*

Warmheart
12-31-2018, 12:45 PM
You are not in a position to determine what is "real" vs "deception" when it comes to this topic. You are simply presuming, because you don't understand, nor have apparently experienced the topic at hand. You couldn't warn anyone if you wanted to, because you don't know.
That's why I kept mentioning death a lot. Death is a good separator of "real" vs "deception". When you are about to get drowned, you either get some fake help and die or you get some real help and survive.

And as old teaching says: "It is too late to make a well when your house is already engulfed in flames". It will be too late to seek a cure if you wasted time by using some cheap placebo instead.

Awani
12-31-2018, 01:00 PM
Warmheart: you don’t get it

The teacher is not the shaman. They don’t keep a secret or hand it out.

My teacher is the PLANT!!!

:p

Seth-Ra
12-31-2018, 01:17 PM
That's why I kept mentioning death a lot. Death is a good separator of "real" vs "deception". When you are about to get drowned, you either get some fake help and die or you get some real help and survive.

And as old teaching says: "It is too late to make a well when your house is already engulfed in flames". It will be too late to seek a cure if you wasted time by using some cheap placebo instead.

Awani already posted a relevant picture in regards to drowning, and how attitude is the help needed. (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5529-DMT-is-the-Stone&p=61873#post61873) ;)

Death does not separate the real from the unreal - its just a process of changing forms.
Truth doesn't care who doesn't like It or its processes. They still are, and will be.
That which is made of the system, cannot "cure" itself of the system.

But by all means, have fun trying. Everything serves, willingly or otherwise. :)




~Seth-Ra

Awani
12-31-2018, 04:55 PM
I only takes ten minutes... not much effort to check it out. LOL.

:p

White Belt
12-31-2018, 05:09 PM
:)




You should watch this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r15ckOaXuSA

After the first experience or so, and having spent over half my life practicing "traditional" practical alchemy, and even utilizing some really dangerous elements like we know for a fact the ancients did, a lot, I came to the same conclusion as the guy in the video here, who has studied and teaches traditional internal methods. Practical lab alchemy's stones, when ingested by a person, trigger the "death sequence" so that the brain will produce and use its own DMT - body, in accordance with the Spirit and Will, can then rework those materials and recover, even improve the health. But its triggering the same mental and spiritual effect - and its the mental and spiritual goings-ons that are handling and changing the body.
In ancient china, those who drank the mercury and sulfur concoction considered to be the "elixir of immortality", and died while under its influence, were said to be blessed and immortal. (no doubt because it triggered their death sequence... though a bit to well - but the goal was the deeper experience, not terrestrial/fractal continuation.)





~Seth-Ra


Thank you for posting this. Why does this forum keep drawing me back to this topic?

Lets start with a practice where you slow the breath down as much as possible. When I do this I can with some effort do an in breath of 18sec and an out breath of 18sec. With some time I can usually push the exhale breath a little longer like 25+ but not with control, the need for oxygen (the in breaths) gets intense and I need to breath in fairly rapidly to reestablish control before I can get back to 18 sec in and out with ease and a slow pace and control without too much effort.

I have to say that when you are feeling more confidence with this technique and you are able to push your breath a little bit.... The only way I feel I am able to put into words is "triggering the death sequence"

I have used this phrase in my own head so many times while experiencing this feeling, during the out breath its the thing that pops into your head, you are breathing out for so long and you can feel all your body's process slowing down - your brain feels fine and your body feels so warm and peaceful all over - but as you continue to exhale your brain begins to shriek at you "You are dying!" or "Breath in you are killing yourself!"

I have tried before to explain how I feel the Chinese/Tibetan/Yoga link with Internal Alchemy is connected to the confection of the Philosophers Stone and DMT. Some people seem to fight this idea for some reason as if it in some way detracts from the actual lab process done by what most would consider "Alchemy" here. Or as someone has stated above it is in some way profane or cheating the traditional ways.

There are many other complexities to the practices and the use of internal mercury (semen) and external mercury pills (rasamani). However it is extremely clear from the Chi Kung manuals that the ancient Taoist masters were experimenting with mushrooms and their belief at least to me is clear as to the effective power of psychedelic mushrooms and other mushrooms in general.

Known as "Queen Healer" and the mushroom of immortality in Chinese medicine, reishi is the most famous of all mushrooms and is a true adaptogen. Ancient Taoists called it "the herb of spiritual potency" and they believed reishi promoted calmness and contentedness.

z0 K
12-31-2018, 06:33 PM
Thank you for posting this. Why does this forum keep drawing me back to this topic?

Lets start with a practice where you slow the breath down as much as possible. When I do this I can with some effort do an in breath of 18sec and an out breath of 18sec. With some time I can usually push the exhale breath a little longer like 25+ but not with control, the need for oxygen (the in breaths) gets intense and I need to breath in fairly rapidly to reestablish control before I can get back to 18 sec in and out with ease and a slow pace and control without too much effort.

I have to say that when you are feeling more confidence with this technique and you are able to push your breath a little bit.... The only way I feel I am able to put into words is "triggering the death sequence"

I have used this phrase in my own head so many times while experiencing this feeling, during the out breath its the thing that pops into your head, you are breathing out for so long and you can feel all your body's process slowing down - your brain feels fine and your body feels so warm and peaceful all over - but as you continue to exhale your brain begins to shriek at you "You are dying!" or "Breath in you are killing yourself!"

I have tried before to explain how I feel the Chinese/Tibetan/Yoga link with Internal Alchemy is connected to the confection of the Philosophers Stone and DMT. Some people seem to fight this idea for some reason as if it in some way detracts from the actual lab process done by what most would consider "Alchemy" here. Or as someone has stated above it is in some way profane or cheating the traditional ways.

There are many other complexities to the practices and the use of internal mercury (semen) and external mercury pills (rasamani). However it is extremely clear from the Chi Kung manuals that the ancient Taoist masters were experimenting with mushrooms and their belief at least to me is clear as to the effective power of psychedelic mushrooms and other mushrooms in general.

Known as "Queen Healer" and the mushroom of immortality in Chinese medicine, reishi is the most famous of all mushrooms and is a true adaptogen. Ancient Taoists called it "the herb of spiritual potency" and they believed reishi promoted calmness and contentedness.

It is not so much a "death sequence" but the phase transition into alternate observational platforms, heuristic algorithms, not dependent upon Space/Time operating through Eternity in Tao.

Cannabis in Taoist Alchemy
From Science & Civilization in China, vol:2, Alchemy and Chemistry, by Joseph Needham

What concerns us here is the possibility that the ancient Taoists generated hallucinogenic smokes in their incense burners. It has been suggested that the incense of Taoist liturgy was at least as much a technique of fumigation and purification as a sweet-smelling offering to the gods, or at least that it began shamanistically that way... If one wanted to drive away demons (as well as rat and insects) by "making a stink," the addition of sulphur, mustard, horn keratin and suchlike substances to the "incense"-burner would have been an obvious thing, showing once again the unsuspected relation between this furnace and that of the alchemist; and it might not have been long before the Taoists found they could use this as a psychological alchemy powerful indeed. So what started as a "smoking out" of undesirable things, changed now to a "smoking in" of heavenly things to oneself. The addition of hemp (ta ma, huo ma, Cannabis sativa = indica) to the contents of incense-burners is clearly stated in one Taoist collection, the Wu Shang Pi Yao (Essentials of the Matchless Books) which must place it before +570 [570CE]. That the psycho-pharmacological properties of the plant (commonly called hashish, marijuana, etc) were known in the Han or before is clear from the statement in the Shen Nung Pen Tshao Ching under ma fen (hemp seeds): To take much makes people see demons and throw themselves about like maniacs. But if one takes it over a long period of time one can communicate with the spirits, and one's body becomes light a characteristic prelude to material immortality. The same entry also gives the synonym ma pho, a technical term [hemp blooming metamorphosis]. Later on, ma hua, hemp flowers, became yet another synonym.

The text just quoted belongs to the -2nd or -1st century... One suspects that its origin lay in the conviction of the proto-Taoists of the Chou period that for the attainment of longevity and immortality one should abstain from cereals and live upon all kinds of unlikely plants and vegetables. sometimes these turned out to have rather extraordinary properties. The Pen Ching statement was copied time after time in later books.

For example, Sun Ssu-Mo, in his Chhien Chin I Fang, ch. 4, (p. 52.2), c. +670. Just about the same time Meng Shen, in his Shih Liao Pen Tshao (Nutritional Natural History), quoted it from a Taoist Tung Shen Ching, probably the Tung Shen Pa Ti Yuan Pien Ching. This text gives instructions for taking hemp, and says that those who wish to see demons should take it (with certain other drugs) for up to a hundred days... Thus the hallucinogenic properties of hemp were common knowledge in Chinese medical and Taoist circles for two millennia or more. It occurs in various +4th century prescriptions for gaining visionary power. Yang Hsi describes his own experiences on using the Chhu Shen Wan (Pill of Commencing Immortals) which contains much hemp. The formula of this medicine, directed against the Three worms is given in the Tzu-Yang Chen Jen Nei Chuan (Biography of the Adept of the Purple Yang), written before, but perhaps not long before, +399. For these "psychedelic" experiences in ancient Taoism a closed room would have been necessary, and precisely the "Pure Chamber" of the oldest Taoist rites was available....

It is remarkable that the injunction "don't look around!" is frequent in the directions for doing obeisance to the incense-burner in the Pure Chamber oratory. This might suggest the need for concentration on the hallucinogenic smoke.

A text of the +4th century suggests: "For those who begin practicing the Tao it is not necessary to go into the mountains....Some with purifying incense and sprinkling and sweeping are also able to call down the Perfected Immortals. the followers of the Lady Wei (Hua-Tshun) and of Hsu (Mi) are of this kind."

This comes from the Yuan-Shih Shang Chen Chung Hsien Chi (Record of the Assemblies of the Perfected Immortals). The two leaders mentioned were great figures in the Mao Shan school of Taoism. Something might also be gained by pursuing mythological connections with the Hemp Damsel, Ma Ku, goddess of the slopes of Thai Shan, where the plant was supposed to be gathered on the seventh day of the seventh month, a day of seance banquets in the Taoist communities.

Thus all in all there is much reason for thinking that the ancient Taoists experimented systematically with hallucinogenic smokes, using techniques which arose directly out of liturgical observance. There may well have been a close connection here with the fungal hallucinogens already discussed and equally another with the anoxaemic and other abnormal states intentionally produced in some of the exercises of physiological alchemy. Even hypnotic and trance techniques are not to be excluded...At all events the incense-burner remained the center of changes and transformations associated with worship, sacrifice, ascending perfume of sweet savor, fire combustion, disintegration, transformation, vision, communication with spiritual beings, and assurances of immortality. Wai tan and nei tan met around the incense-burner. Might one not indeed think of it as their point of origin?

We do not wish to in any way to minimize the role of the metal-workers and the potters, with all their lore and natural magic, in the development of Chinese alchemy; but a distinctively religious motif, not derived from them, was outstandingly important in both wai tan and nei tan from the beginning. So it was, for that matter, mutatis mutandis, in the aurifaction of the early Hellenistic proto-chemists.

elixirmixer
01-01-2019, 02:31 AM
so all i have to do to get completely off my tits is sit in the dark for 5 days.

Nice......

Kibric
01-01-2019, 03:32 AM
So you know, I have a very horrific disease which keeps blooming. And I am still living thanks to the real stuff I am finding, I don't have luxury of finding truth in smoke, some vulgar psychology or modern science, according to which I should be long dead by now

That great God of love does not exist outside of you, go looking and you'll find nothing.
Warmth in this dream comes from us, your brothers and sisters.
We are the treasure, we are your meaning and you are ours. God ? you know him as you.
If you are scared like the rest of us, reach out you can find peace and health with a little help from your friends

White Belt
01-02-2019, 07:38 PM
It is not so much a "death sequence" but the phase transition into alternate observational platforms, heuristic algorithms, not dependent upon Space/Time operating through Eternity in Tao.

Cannabis in Taoist Alchemy
From Science & Civilization in China, vol:2, Alchemy and Chemistry, by Joseph Needham

What concerns us here is the possibility that the ancient Taoists generated hallucinogenic smokes in their incense burners. It has been suggested that the incense of Taoist liturgy was at least as much a technique of fumigation and purification as a sweet-smelling offering to the gods, or at least that it began shamanistically that way... If one wanted to drive away demons (as well as rat and insects) by "making a stink," the addition of sulphur, mustard, horn keratin and suchlike substances to the "incense"-burner would have been an obvious thing, showing once again the unsuspected relation between this furnace and that of the alchemist; and it might not have been long before the Taoists found they could use this as a psychological alchemy powerful indeed. So what started as a "smoking out" of undesirable things, changed now to a "smoking in" of heavenly things to oneself. The addition of hemp (ta ma, huo ma, Cannabis sativa = indica) to the contents of incense-burners is clearly stated in one Taoist collection, the Wu Shang Pi Yao (Essentials of the Matchless Books) which must place it before +570 [570CE]. That the psycho-pharmacological properties of the plant (commonly called hashish, marijuana, etc) were known in the Han or before is clear from the statement in the Shen Nung Pen Tshao Ching under ma fen (hemp seeds): To take much makes people see demons and throw themselves about like maniacs. But if one takes it over a long period of time one can communicate with the spirits, and one's body becomes light a characteristic prelude to material immortality. The same entry also gives the synonym ma pho, a technical term [hemp blooming metamorphosis]. Later on, ma hua, hemp flowers, became yet another synonym.

The text just quoted belongs to the -2nd or -1st century... One suspects that its origin lay in the conviction of the proto-Taoists of the Chou period that for the attainment of longevity and immortality one should abstain from cereals and live upon all kinds of unlikely plants and vegetables. sometimes these turned out to have rather extraordinary properties. The Pen Ching statement was copied time after time in later books.

For example, Sun Ssu-Mo, in his Chhien Chin I Fang, ch. 4, (p. 52.2), c. +670. Just about the same time Meng Shen, in his Shih Liao Pen Tshao (Nutritional Natural History), quoted it from a Taoist Tung Shen Ching, probably the Tung Shen Pa Ti Yuan Pien Ching. This text gives instructions for taking hemp, and says that those who wish to see demons should take it (with certain other drugs) for up to a hundred days... Thus the hallucinogenic properties of hemp were common knowledge in Chinese medical and Taoist circles for two millennia or more. It occurs in various +4th century prescriptions for gaining visionary power. Yang Hsi describes his own experiences on using the Chhu Shen Wan (Pill of Commencing Immortals) which contains much hemp. The formula of this medicine, directed against the Three worms is given in the Tzu-Yang Chen Jen Nei Chuan (Biography of the Adept of the Purple Yang), written before, but perhaps not long before, +399. For these "psychedelic" experiences in ancient Taoism a closed room would have been necessary, and precisely the "Pure Chamber" of the oldest Taoist rites was available....

It is remarkable that the injunction "don't look around!" is frequent in the directions for doing obeisance to the incense-burner in the Pure Chamber oratory. This might suggest the need for concentration on the hallucinogenic smoke.

A text of the +4th century suggests: "For those who begin practicing the Tao it is not necessary to go into the mountains....Some with purifying incense and sprinkling and sweeping are also able to call down the Perfected Immortals. the followers of the Lady Wei (Hua-Tshun) and of Hsu (Mi) are of this kind."

This comes from the Yuan-Shih Shang Chen Chung Hsien Chi (Record of the Assemblies of the Perfected Immortals). The two leaders mentioned were great figures in the Mao Shan school of Taoism. Something might also be gained by pursuing mythological connections with the Hemp Damsel, Ma Ku, goddess of the slopes of Thai Shan, where the plant was supposed to be gathered on the seventh day of the seventh month, a day of seance banquets in the Taoist communities.

Thus all in all there is much reason for thinking that the ancient Taoists experimented systematically with hallucinogenic smokes, using techniques which arose directly out of liturgical observance. There may well have been a close connection here with the fungal hallucinogens already discussed and equally another with the anoxaemic and other abnormal states intentionally produced in some of the exercises of physiological alchemy. Even hypnotic and trance techniques are not to be excluded...At all events the incense-burner remained the center of changes and transformations associated with worship, sacrifice, ascending perfume of sweet savor, fire combustion, disintegration, transformation, vision, communication with spiritual beings, and assurances of immortality. Wai tan and nei tan met around the incense-burner. Might one not indeed think of it as their point of origin?

We do not wish to in any way to minimize the role of the metal-workers and the potters, with all their lore and natural magic, in the development of Chinese alchemy; but a distinctively religious motif, not derived from them, was outstandingly important in both wai tan and nei tan from the beginning. So it was, for that matter, mutatis mutandis, in the aurifaction of the early Hellenistic proto-chemists.

Thanks for blowing my mind, so as not to derail this thread - I will write on this topic in another thread and hope you find time to discuss with me there

Seth-Ra
01-03-2019, 09:08 AM
Thank you for posting this. Why does this forum keep drawing me back to this topic?

Happy to help. :)
It probably keeps drawing you back, because its calling to you. ;)


Lets start with a practice where you slow the breath down as much as possible. When I do this I can with some effort do an in breath of 18sec and an out breath of 18sec. With some time I can usually push the exhale breath a little longer like 25+ but not with control, the need for oxygen (the in breaths) gets intense and I need to breath in fairly rapidly to reestablish control before I can get back to 18 sec in and out with ease and a slow pace and control without too much effort.

I have to say that when you are feeling more confidence with this technique and you are able to push your breath a little bit.... The only way I feel I am able to put into words is "triggering the death sequence"

I have not personally experimented with the breathing techniques, aside from the ones used in smoking/vaping it - however, as part of Its teaching me, and solidifying those teachings within my form, It has caused me to do certain breathing exorcises in order to be/manifest the True Self.
No doubt such is connected - and also why there's no way to "cheat" or "trick" It. (some people seem to think thats even a thing. lolol)


I have used this phrase in my own head so many times while experiencing this feeling, during the out breath its the thing that pops into your head, you are breathing out for so long and you can feel all your body's process slowing down - your brain feels fine and your body feels so warm and peaceful all over - but as you continue to exhale your brain begins to shriek at you "You are dying!" or "Breath in you are killing yourself!"

Yes, in some sense you very well may be "dying", but as the saying goes, "you have to die before you die, so that you won't die when you die." ;)
It is also an important practice to silence the mind/little I/fractal self. That is what I've have been taught to do with the breathing exorcises from it - its just a letting go. (Which we all innately reject doing - hence its Work. ;) )


I have tried before to explain how I feel the Chinese/Tibetan/Yoga link with Internal Alchemy is connected to the confection of the Philosophers Stone and DMT. Some people seem to fight this idea for some reason as if it in some way detracts from the actual lab process done by what most would consider "Alchemy" here. Or as someone has stated above it is in some way profane or cheating the traditional ways.

No such thing as profaning or cheating. The Way, is All, and All is One. Ya can't fuck it up - but some fall into the arrogance of thinking they can. (Which is silly, and also ok. ;) )


There are many other complexities to the practices and the use of internal mercury (semen) and external mercury pills (rasamani). However it is extremely clear from the Chi Kung manuals that the ancient Taoist masters were experimenting with mushrooms and their belief at least to me is clear as to the effective power of psychedelic mushrooms and other mushrooms in general.

Known as "Queen Healer" and the mushroom of immortality in Chinese medicine, reishi is the most famous of all mushrooms and is a true adaptogen. Ancient Taoists called it "the herb of spiritual potency" and they believed reishi promoted calmness and contentedness.

Absolutely. Such is also prevalent in pretty much all the ancient cultures and societies. It's part of the simplistic beauty of it all. :D



It is not so much a "death sequence" but the phase transition into alternate observational platforms, heuristic algorithms, not dependent upon Space/Time operating through Eternity in Tao.

Considering that death is nothing but a phase transition anyway, you'd be right - yet phase transitioning is what we'd call death at this level and for our fractal selves. :)


so all i have to do to get completely off my tits is sit in the dark for 5 days.

Nice......

I feel like there might be a bit more to it than just that, but sure. Personally I recommend smoking it, for convenience sake, and continual use of operation. After all, most of us have more to do than sit in the dark for 5 days, meditating. ;)




~Seth-Ra

Kibric
02-07-2019, 02:35 PM
DMT ?

At the top of Palani Hill, near the holy Murugan which Bhogar had crafted from nine arsenics, there is an opening in the Earth; it is a hole in the ground; the mouth of a cave which lies below. Bhogar often lowered himself into the Earth, sat in the cave, accessing Life's hidden secrets. He performed great austerities there, the magnitude of which very few in this modern age can fathom.
There at the opening Bhogar erected a humble shrine to the Great Mother: a few yantras, a couple of five-metal icons baring the form of the Mother and her son Murugan. He worshipped a small emerald lingam there, about ten inches in height. His one and only disciple, Pulipani (perhaps the only one who truly understood the sage), kept him company at the entrance to the underground cavern on the top of Palani Hill.
When Bhogar felt that his outer work was done, he entered the gateway of earth and stone and sat down in the darkness of the cave. Faithful Pulipani heaved a stone slab over the entrance, sealing Bhogar forever in the blackness of his earthen womb.
For thirteen generations Pulipani's descendants have watched over that stone slab that marks the gateway to the underground chamber. Long ago, Bhogar's little shrine was set atop that hallowed spot, and even today, is still worshipped by the vigilant sons of the faithful Pulipani.
They say that Bhogar is seated quietly in meditation even now; alone in the darkness; watching the slow passage of time.
His breath is still. His mind is quiet, his heart unwavering; but through the dense dark matter of his earthly form stabs the vibrant & relentless flame of the Kundalini Shakti. There he waits...

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bhogar1.html