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Florius Frammel
05-28-2018, 08:38 AM
My researches in more "classical literature" about water works showed a very clear lineage which you might find interesting.

I exclude Glauber's works with mirrors and lenses, but those are older than the first book, which I am going to start with.

This water work lineage seems to begin pretty late, when alchemy was officially already pretty dead or drawing it's last breaths.
All of this books are in german, but maybe you find some of them in your RAMS collections.

As far as I can see it, all started with "Der Wasserstein der Weisen" supposedly written by J. Siebmacher (1661)

Wasserstein (https://archive.org/details/wassersteinderwe00sieb)

From this book on all the other interpretations derived.

The next and pretty clear written book is
"Philosophisch Güldene Quelle" by Carl Paul Wassermann 1682

Wassermann (https://books.google.de/books?id=Eto6AAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PP1&lpg=RA1-PP1&dq=carl+paul+wassermann&source=bl&ots=7hEJJW9h5F&sig=xtpDrZN7ijsvV1-sxvNTuryaX0k&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-y4mk-6fbAhVEKlAKHdC3C_wQ6AEwAnoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=carl%20paul%20wassermann&f=false)

Then there are of course the two "sun and moon books" by Johann Friedrich Fleischer 1740/1744

Chymische Sonne (http://tudigit.ulb.tu-darmstadt.de/show/33-5749/0005?sid=77d705766674d0642f5c216ca51e95d7)
and
Chymischer Mondenschein (http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10252984_00001.html)

The most interesting however is the book "Chymischer Wahrsager" by Dietrich David Becker 1755

Chymischer Wahrsager (https://books.google.de/books?id=7_ETAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=chymischer+wahrsager&source=bl&ots=h4qfjv1658&sig=SsJYNPDZ84hNbcOpm0KhggY1HJU&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH3Jnv_KfbAhVFYlAKHUBiDQYQ6AEwAHoECAAQA Q#v=onepage&q=chymischer%20wahrsager&f=false)

who sums up all the before mentioned books (he doesn't like the method with salts as magnets) and methods and gives very clear instructions how to get a red oil out of water. I am sure that at least Canseliet must have known this book, because I found obvious similarities between his comments on the Mutus Liber and Becker's book. For example they both share the same favourite dew collecting method.

Becker, who himself was a medical practitoner with an official PhD, of course was critiziced and bullied by the "official sciences" for example in the November issue of the journal "Erfurter gelehrter Sachen Nachrichten 1755".

He then wrote another book called "Des Chymischen Wahrsagers Verteidigung 1757"

Verteidigung (https://books.google.de/books?id=fd4gpZSHhx8C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=chymischer+wahrsager&source=bl&ots=t8K2rAUB0G&sig=0_veNsin-b0Y1LhO_V-Zug8AgsI&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH3Jnv_KfbAhVFYlAKHUBiDQYQ6AEwA3oECAQQA Q#v=onepage&q=chymischer%20wahrsager&f=false)

to defend himself against those critics, tells them where they were wrong and gives useful additional practises at hand how to better get his alchemical preparations.

Especially those methods described by Becker later appeared quite similar and in shorter form in the water work sections of the "Aurea Catena Homeri" by Kirchweger, which you all should know and own.

Here you are, maybe this is helpful to some of you too.

Becker announced to write a book how to extract the three principals out of plants without heat or corrosives, but as he wanted to write his "defense" first, it seems it never appeared. If you happen to know more of this third book by Becker, please inform me. Thank you!

Edit: I was wrong with the Aurea Catena, which was first published 1723. It's therefore chronologically between Wassermann and Fleischer.

Michael Sternbach
06-04-2018, 01:07 PM
That's a very interesting list! :)

However, I think that the Water Work is considerably older than it is given credit for. From The Confession of Trithemius:


This Breath is the Spirit or Soul of the World and is called Spiritus Mundi. It was, at first, like air, then condensed into a nebulous substance or fog and finally transmuted itself into water. This water was at first spirit and life, because it was impregnated and vivified by the Spirit. Darkness filled the abyss, but by the emission of the Word, the Light was engendered, the darkness was illuminated by the Light and the Soul of the World ("The Astral Light") was born.

This spiritual Light which we call Nature or Soul of the world is a spiritual body which may be rendered visible and tangible by alchemical processes; but as it is naturally invisible, it is called Spirit.

It is a living universal fluid diffused throughout Nature, and which Penetrates everything. It is the most subtle of all substances; the most powerful, by reason of its inherent qualities. It penetrates every body and determines the forms in which it displays its activity. By its action, it frees the forms from all imperfection; it makes the impure pure, the imperfect perfect and the mortal immortal by its indwelling.

This essence or Spirit emanated from the beginning from the Center and incorporated itself with the substance of which the Universe is formed. It is the "Salt of the Earth", and without its presence the plant would not grow, nor the field become green and the more this essence is condensed, concentrated and coagulated in the forms, the more stable they become. It is the most subtle of all substances; incorruptible and immovable from its essence. It fills the infinities of space.

The sun and planets are but coagulations of this universal principle; from their beating heart they distribute the abundance of their life and send it forth into the forms of the interior world and in all creatures acting about their own center and raising the forms on the way of perfection. The forms in which this living principle establishes itself become perfect and durable so that they no longer decay nor deteriorate nor change in contact with the air. Water can no longer dissolve them, nor fire destroy them nor the terrestrial elements devour them.

This Spirit is obtained in the same way as it is communicated to the Earth by the stars and this is performed by means of the Water; which serves as a vehicle to it. It is not the Philosopher's Stone, but this may be prepared from it by fixing the volatile. I advise you to pay great attention to the boiling of the Water. Do not let your spirit be troubled about things of less importance. Make it boil slowly, then let it putrefy until it has attained the fitting color, for the Water of Life contains the germ of wisdom. In boiling, the Water will transform itself into Earth. This Earth will change into a pure crystalline fluid; which will produce a fine red Fire; and this Water and this Fire, reduced to a single Essence, produce the great Panacea composed of sweetness and strength, the Lamb and the Lion united.

(Thanks again Andro for bringing this to my attention.)

I haven't tracked down any biographic details of this text yet (which is contained in RAMS), however, Trithemius lived 1462 - 1562.

And according to some, this image from the Splendor Solis (early 1530's) shows a dew collecting method.

http://i64.tinypic.com/34nlf7s.jpg

And I think that even older examples can be found.

Florius Frammel
06-04-2018, 02:08 PM
Sure, Siebmacher and Wassermann were quoting older sources too. But I think it's a matter of interpretation to really use actual dew, or to see it as a Deckname for s.sth. else, or to see dew as the real thing behind other Decknamen (e.g. the rose).

It would be interesting to find the original source of Trithemius confession. Maybe it is just a 'pseudo' author who has written later. However, as most of his texts are written in latin, or a cryptic language, this is a harder task. He did not seem to be a full time alchemist too, so I have my doubts here.

One could say similar things about Siebmacher too, whose profession was in heraldry, though his relatives had alchemy-related jobs. At least we have a publishing year here.

The picture of the Splendor Solis shows typical women's work, and is not necessarily related to dew collection imo.

JDP
06-04-2018, 07:08 PM
The picture of the Splendor Solis shows typical women's work, and is not necessarily related to dew collection imo.

Indeed, there is no sufficient evidence to conclude that the author of that text really had actual dew in mind. In fact, he cites a passage from Hermes that makes it pretty clear that the "dew" in question is NOT real dew:

HERMES, the First Master of this Art, says as follows: "The
Water of the Air, which is between Heaven and Earth, is the Life
of everything; for by means of its Moisture and Warmth, it is the
medium between the two opposites, as Fire and Water, and
therefore it rains water on earth, Heaven has opened itself, and
sent its Dew on earth, making as sweet as honey, and moist.
Therefore the Earth flowers and bears manifold coloured
blooms and fruits, and in her interior has grown a large Tree
with a silver stem, stretching itself out to the earth's surface.
On its branches have been sitting many kinds of birds, all
departing at Daybreak, when the Ravenhead became white. The
same tree bears three kinds of Fruit. The First are the very
finest Pearls. The Second are called by Philosophers TERRA
FOLIATA. The Third is the very purest Gold. This Tree gives us
as well the fruit of Health, it makes warm what is cold, and what
is cold it makes warm, what is dry it makes moist, and
makes moist what is dry, and softens the hard, and hardens the
soft, and is the end of the whole Art.

Has anyone ever seen actual dew perform the things being described here? I don't think so! It is this type of passages in alchemical texts which have confused many a "puffer" to experiment with actual dew. Of course, they never found the things described in them, because what the alchemists had in mind by "dew" is a liquid (i.e. the secret solvent or "water") that is generated inside the "microcosm" (i.e. inside their flasks & retorts) NOT in the "macrocosm" (i.e. the world we live in.)

Florius Frammel
06-05-2018, 06:13 AM
The text allocated to that picture is even more clear:

It is about the "sublimatio".
The ashes should be washed and cooked (calcinated) until they are white.
Washing and cooking: Women's work (in former times for a long time).
I will have a look at the aurora consurgens, which was the main source for the Splendor Solis, which can almost be considered as a 1:1 copy in some passages.

On the other hand I would not dismiss the dew too soon.
As can be observed, all putrefaction, and therefore the reason for all changes in nature (and probably in Alchemy as a follower of nature) needs moisture. This moisture falls from the "heaven" as rain, dew, snow, ...and rises from the earth as a mist up to the heaven again. This is one main aspect of this art and that "water circle" imo symbolized for example in those pictures with the Jacob's ladder (s. Mutus Liber or Alchemya of Notre Dame). Of course it could also show the symbol of niter and other things too..

Nevertheless the ancients indeed observed that everything in the animal and vegetable kingdoms is changed through that water. They concluded that the same effect takes place in the mineral kingdom, but much longer. It's the artist's task to speed up things in the mineral kingdom.

Therefore it indeed suits very good at least as a symbol for the universal solvent. Water isn't really attributed to one of the three kingdoms but plays a big role in all three.

Now pure clean water will never form an earth out of itself that's for sure. But I read in Becker's last book, that he knew a guy (forgot his name - can look it up if wanted), who could force all waters (dew, rain, well) to form an earth with a certain "flick of the wrist". It's the same strange term Fulcanelli uses for a very important yet unknown step in alchemy.

If there is anything about that water claims, one should therefore focus on the impurities in the water that causes to form some kinds of either algae, funghi or bacteria matter that fits the descriptions (brown, black and slimy, eventually resulting into a white solid and a red oil after further treatment). As most of the alchemist talk about operating in the dark, it is not likely that an organism performing photosynthesis is involved here. Of course living matter would additionaly need some kind of carbon hydrates to live and grow. As for example Azotobacters (who prefer to live in black earth with clay soil BTW) would need a host to grow properly in a symbiosis.

Of course I can be all wrong with this hypothesis and this indeed is a dead end.

Edit: I found the source with the “flick of the wrist“, which in german is “geheimer Handgriff“. It is in Baron Schröder's Nothwendiger Unterricht vom Goldmachen from 1684. Schröder was a member of the Royal Society, together with guys like Boyle. In said chapter he also speaks about different methods to attract the Spiritus Mundi out of the air(e.g. with lenses, glasses, salts, ashes, heat(!) or bellows at night and daytime)

Schröder (https://books.google.de/books?id=gEVKY6t0x8EC&pg=PA98&dq=schröder+goldmachen&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEw52lhbzbAhWKalAKHb3uBKYQ6AEILjAC#v=on epage&q=heimlichen%20handgriff&f=false)

Andro
06-05-2018, 08:17 AM
force all waters (dew, rain, well) to form an earth with a certain "flick of the wrist". It's the same strange term Fulcanelli uses for a very important yet unknown step in alchemy.

There are at least two ways (that I know of) to precipitate an earth out of good quality distilled water.

One must also take care that there are no spores present, otherwise we can end up with a fungus growing in the water instead of our desired "earth". Sometimes it may be a good idea to autoclave the vessel beforehand...


Of course I can be all wrong with this hypothesis and this indeed is a dead end.

Common Dew can perform some cool things, but it has a low potency (i.e. very low concentration of what we're after) - so we would need rather huge quantities and a lot of time, only to get a relatively low R.O.I. See for example Gold of a Thousand Mornings (https://tuxdoc.com/download/armand-barbault-gold-of-a-thousand-mornings-1969_pdf) by Armand Barbault.

JDP
06-05-2018, 01:26 PM
The text allocated to that picture is even more clear:

It is about the "sublimatio".
The ashes should be washed and cooked (calcinated) until they are white.
Washing and cooking: Women's work (in former times for a long time).
I will have a look at the aurora consurgens, which was the main source for the Splendor Solis, which can almost be considered as a 1:1 copy in some passages.

On the other hand I would not dismiss the dew too soon.
As can be observed, all putrefaction, and therefore the reason for all changes in nature (and probably in Alchemy as a follower of nature) needs moisture. This moisture falls from the "heaven" as rain, dew, snow, ...and rises from the earth as a mist up to the heaven again. This is one main aspect of this art and that "water circle" imo symbolized for example in those pictures with the Jacob's ladder (s. Mutus Liber or Alchemya of Notre Dame). Of course it could also show the symbol of niter and other things too..

Nevertheless the ancients indeed observed that everything in the animal and vegetable kingdoms is changed through that water. They concluded that the same effect takes place in the mineral kingdom, but much longer. It's the artist's task to speed up things in the mineral kingdom.

Therefore it indeed suits very good at least as a symbol for the universal solvent. Water isn't really attributed to one of the three kingdoms but plays a big role in all three.

Now pure clean water will never form an earth out of itself that's for sure. But I read in Becker's last book, that he knew a guy (forgot his name - can look it up if wanted), who could force all waters (dew, rain, well) to form an earth with a certain "flick of the wrist". It's the same strange term Fulcanelli uses for a very important yet unknown step in alchemy.

If there is anything about that water claims, one should therefore focus on the impurities in the water that causes to form some kinds of either algae, funghi or bacteria matter that fits the descriptions (brown, black and slimy, eventually resulting into a white solid and a red oil after further treatment). As most of the alchemist talk about operating in the dark, it is not likely that an organism performing photosynthesis is involved here. Of course living matter would additionaly need some kind of carbon hydrates to live and grow. As for example Azotobacters (who prefer to live in black earth with clay soil BTW) would need a host to grow properly in a symbiosis.

Of course I can be all wrong with this hypothesis and this indeed is a dead end.

Edit: I found the source with the “flick of the wrist“, which in german is “geheimer Handgriff“. It is in Baron Schröder's Nothwendiger Unterricht vom Goldmachen from 1684. Schröder was a member of the Royal Society, together with guys like Boyle. In said chapter he also speaks about different methods to attract the Spiritus Mundi out of the air(e.g. with lenses, glasses, salts, ashes, heat(!) or bellows at night and daytime)

Schröder (https://books.google.de/books?id=gEVKY6t0x8EC&pg=PA98&dq=schröder+goldmachen&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEw52lhbzbAhWKalAKHb3uBKYQ6AEILjAC#v=on epage&q=heimlichen%20handgriff&f=false)

No matter what you can obtain from common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which are merely things suspended or dissolved in it, the water itself will always remain the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it has always been. This is true of all common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), whether from rain, or dew, or whatever. There is no way that you will ever see any common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) perform the things the alchemists described in their books. Take a look at this passage from the Turba Philosophorum, for example:

For when the fire is kindled the vinegar ascends, because its spiritual nature passes into the air, wherefore, I direct you to keep that part separately. Ye must also know that by multiplied decoctions and attritions it is congealed and coloured by the fire, and its nature is changed. By a similar decoction and liquefaction Cambar is not disjoined. I notify to you that by the said frequent decoction the weight of a third part of the water is consumed, but the residue becomes a wind in the Cambar of the second spirit. And know ye that nothing is more precious or more excellent than the red sand of the sea, for the Sputum of Luna is united with the light of the Sun's rays. Luna is perfected by the coming on of night, and by the heat of the Sun the dew is congealed. Then, that being wounded, the dew of the death dealer is joined, and the more the days pass on the more intensely is it congealed, and is not burned.

Pay attention to this "congealing" of the "water" or "dew". That's the obvious telltale sign that what is being described is NOT the result of operations with either rain-water, or dew, or any other kind of common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which will NEVER, EVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS of continuous "cooking" solidify into any permanent substance that resists the fire, either by itself or mixed with whatever you like. It will simply continue to be the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it always was. Heat does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), except evaporate it (a mere change of state, not of its INTRINSIC NATURE.) This is quite contrary to the "water" of the alchemists, which has the peculiar and very unusual characteristic of "congealing" or "coagulating" through "coctions", specially when it dissolves certain mineral/metallic substances, with which it permanently joins and becomes a solid substance resistant to fire and penetrating into metals (i.e. an alchemical "tincture".) The "congealing" or "coagulation" of this "water" is so important, that Khalid Ibn Yazid in one of his alchemical poems in fact said that it is the sign that you are on the right track:

When I saw the Water coagulating itself I became sure that the thing was right as has been described. - quoted by Ibn Umail in his Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth.

So, when you read alchemical texts (proper, not texts by chymical dilettantes) that mention "water", "rain", "dew", etc., always take it for granted that they mean this secret artificial liquid of theirs, which is generated inside their flasks/retorts ("microcosm") out of the right combination of substances, and not on the "outside" world we live in ("macrocosm"), where this "water" is never found or generated anywhere (nature in fact CANNOT produce this thing; the chances that the right combination of substances would occur in a natural setting for this "water" to be generated would be practically ZERO, that's why it is never found in nature and the alchemist has to figure out how to make it.)

Andro
06-05-2018, 01:57 PM
Heat does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), except evaporate it (a mere change of state, not of its INTRINSIC NATURE.)

Think of annealing. Even repeated annealing cycles. Like in sword-making. What function does it perform?

I'm not saying that common meteorites are the actual "water" of the alchemists. They're not. Unless you have a few centuries to spare :)

Yet, the template and MO are the same, and the same laws apply.

Michael Sternbach
06-05-2018, 02:14 PM
No matter what you can obtain from common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which are merely things suspended or dissolved in it, the water itself will always remain the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it has always been. This is true of all common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), whether from rain, or dew, or whatever. There is no way that you will ever see any common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) perform the things the alchemists described in their books. Take a look at this passage from the Turba Philosophorum, for example:

For when the fire is kindled the vinegar ascends, because its spiritual nature passes into the air, wherefore, I direct you to keep that part separately. Ye must also know that by multiplied decoctions and attritions it is congealed and coloured by the fire, and its nature is changed. By a similar decoction and liquefaction Cambar is not disjoined. I notify to you that by the said frequent decoction the weight of a third part of the water is consumed, but the residue becomes a wind in the Cambar of the second spirit. And know ye that nothing is more precious or more excellent than the red sand of the sea, for the Sputum of Luna is united with the light of the Sun's rays. Luna is perfected by the coming on of night, and by the heat of the Sun the dew is congealed. Then, that being wounded, the dew of the death dealer is joined, and the more the days pass on the more intensely is it congealed, and is not burned.

Pay attention to this "congealing" of the "water" or "dew". That's the obvious telltale sign that what is being described is NOT the result of operations with either rain-water, or dew, or any other kind of common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which will NEVER, EVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS of continuous "cooking" solidify into any permanent substance that resists the fire, either by itself or mixed with whatever you like. It will simply continue to be the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it always was. Heat does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), except evaporate it (a mere change of state, not of its INTRINSIC NATURE.) This is quite contrary to the "water" of the alchemists, which has the peculiar and very unusual characteristic of "congealing" or "coagulating" through "coctions", specially when it dissolves certain mineral/metallic substances, with which it permanently joins and becomes a solid substance resistant to fire and penetrating into metals (i.e. an alchemical "tincture".) The "congealing" or "coagulation" of this "water" is so important, that Khalid Ibn Yazid in one of his alchemical poems in fact said that it is the sign that you are on the right track:

When I saw the Water coagulating itself I became sure that the thing was right as has been described. - quoted by Ibn Umail in his Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth.

So, when you read alchemical texts (proper, not texts by chymical dilettantes) that mention "water", "rain", "dew", etc., always take it for granted that they mean this secret artificial liquid of theirs, which is generated inside their flasks/retorts ("microcosm") out of the right combination of substances, and not on the "outside" world we live in ("macrocosm"), where this "water" is never found or generated anywhere (nature in fact CANNOT produce this thing; the chances that the right combination of substances would occur in a natural setting for this "water" to be generated would be practically ZERO, that's why it is never found in nature and the alchemist has to figure out how to make it.)

You can indeed get something other than simple H2O out of ordinary water with nothing but destillation even according to conventional chemistry. Quoting the Wikipedia article on Heavy Water:


The HDO may be separated from normal water by distillation or electrolysis and also by various chemical exchange processes, all of which exploit a kinetic isotope effect.

Andro
06-05-2018, 02:58 PM
Think of annealing. Even repeated annealing cycles. Like in sword-making. What function does it perform?

I'm not saying that common meteorites are the actual "water" of the alchemists. They're not. Unless you have a few centuries to spare :)

Yet, the template and MO are the same, and the same laws apply.

When I asked what function annealing performs, it wasn't a rhetorical question :)

What sword-makers achieve with multiple cycles of annealing, is somewhat comparable to the work of the alchemist, only not with common fire, but with the secret fire, but a "fire" in its function, nevertheless.

It's essentially the same principle of Solve et Coagula.

Like being in a hot sauna and then jumping into cold water :)

If we better understand such cycles and and their inter-correspondences, we have a better chance to understand alchemy. It's not THAT different.

As I've been saying for some years now - the same laws apply.

Florius Frammel
06-05-2018, 03:57 PM
No matter what you can obtain from common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which are merely things suspended or dissolved in it, the water itself will always remain the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it has always been. This is true of all common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), whether from rain, or dew, or whatever. There is no way that you will ever see any common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) perform the things the alchemists described in their books. Take a look at this passage from the Turba Philosophorum, for example:

For when the fire is kindled the vinegar ascends, because its spiritual nature passes into the air, wherefore, I direct you to keep that part separately. Ye must also know that by multiplied decoctions and attritions it is congealed and coloured by the fire, and its nature is changed. By a similar decoction and liquefaction Cambar is not disjoined. I notify to you that by the said frequent decoction the weight of a third part of the water is consumed, but the residue becomes a wind in the Cambar of the second spirit. And know ye that nothing is more precious or more excellent than the red sand of the sea, for the Sputum of Luna is united with the light of the Sun's rays. Luna is perfected by the coming on of night, and by the heat of the Sun the dew is congealed. Then, that being wounded, the dew of the death dealer is joined, and the more the days pass on the more intensely is it congealed, and is not burned.

Pay attention to this "congealing" of the "water" or "dew". That's the obvious telltale sign that what is being described is NOT the result of operations with either rain-water, or dew, or any other kind of common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), which will NEVER, EVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS of continuous "cooking" solidify into any permanent substance that resists the fire, either by itself or mixed with whatever you like. It will simply continue to be the same old common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O) it always was. Heat does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to common/vulgar/ordinary water (H2O), except evaporate it (a mere change of state, not of its INTRINSIC NATURE.) This is quite contrary to the "water" of the alchemists, which has the peculiar and very unusual characteristic of "congealing" or "coagulating" through "coctions", specially when it dissolves certain mineral/metallic substances, with which it permanently joins and becomes a solid substance resistant to fire and penetrating into metals (i.e. an alchemical "tincture".) The "congealing" or "coagulation" of this "water" is so important, that Khalid Ibn Yazid in one of his alchemical poems in fact said that it is the sign that you are on the right track:

When I saw the Water coagulating itself I became sure that the thing was right as has been described. - quoted by Ibn Umail in his Book of the Silvery Water and the Starry Earth.

So, when you read alchemical texts (proper, not texts by chymical dilettantes) that mention "water", "rain", "dew", etc., always take it for granted that they mean this secret artificial liquid of theirs, which is generated inside their flasks/retorts ("microcosm") out of the right combination of substances, and not on the "outside" world we live in ("macrocosm"), where this "water" is never found or generated anywhere (nature in fact CANNOT produce this thing; the chances that the right combination of substances would occur in a natural setting for this "water" to be generated would be practically ZERO, that's why it is never found in nature and the alchemist has to figure out how to make it.)

I don't question the qualities of pure water. Therefore I suggested focusing on those impurities or biomass produced during putrification. They did not have microorganisms on the screen in former times and it would be an explanation why to be careful with the heat.

I do question those author's adept status too. Especially Becker was no adept for sure. BTW, I don't consider the forming of a red oil necessarily as something alchemical too. Ketchup should as well be considered as alchemical then. But I am interested in what those guys got, as I don't think all those guys following that path are liars.

BTW, if this hypothesis is right, then there is a reasonable connection between the recipe for the "vinegar mother" in the Aurea Catena Homeri and his water works section. As you could simply leave some "Gur" inside the flask and subsequently pour more rainwater or dew on top, causing the "Gur" to grow faster in higher quantities.

Of course one can argue if the Aurea Catena really is about advanced alchemy, but I just make assumptions, which I try to verify in the lab. The advantage: It's no big effort.

JDP
06-05-2018, 04:44 PM
You can indeed get something other than simple H2O out of ordinary water with nothing but destillation even according to conventional chemistry. Quoting the Wikipedia article on Heavy Water:

That's already contained in the common water, it's not a product of the manipulations.

Michael Sternbach
06-05-2018, 06:17 PM
That's already contained in the common water, it's not a product of the manipulations.

Well, whatever the water alchemists are distilling out of it could be already contained in it too.

JDP
06-05-2018, 07:27 PM
Well, whatever the water alchemists are distilling out of it could be already contained in it too.

If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man. Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)

Florius Frammel
06-05-2018, 09:11 PM
If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man. Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)

What you say is very reasonable imo. The probability of such a matter existing readily available indeed is very very low.
But putrefying matter and subsequently working with the whole thing or certain parts of it is another thing, especially when organic matters and microorganisms are involved (even when assuming with the eye that none are there in the first place). The results can vary a lot when doing it with different kind of operations, hand grips and circumstances. For example, before the discovery of yeast they used to let their fruit mash stand in a cellar. The yeast cumulated and encapsuled itself at the walls of the cellar, leading to miraculously constant putrefaction results over years in some cases, while other attempts (mostly outside) often produced vinegar or poor quality wine due to wild yeasts and vinegar bacterias from fruit flies. BTW, the praised Aurea Catena claims that those flies are "somehow" born/produced/transformed out of the putrefaction of plant matter because of that obvious observation of their attraction by that kind of biomass.

I would not totally exclude other "flicks of the wrist" though very unlikely and I do confess I have no real idea what those may be (concerning 100% pure water).

Michael Sternbach
06-06-2018, 03:43 PM
If that was the case, don't you think it would already have been isolated, cataloged and thus become well-known by virtually everyone? Just like it has happened to countless substances discovered by such simple methods as mere extraction. To the more than 1500 years worth of all manner of ancient and medieval seekers after the Stone submitting virtually every single matter ready at hand to distillation (among all sorts of other operations), add more than 300 years of "chymists" and spagyrists submitting to distillation, and cataloging what could be obtained, virtually all single matters at their disposal, and then add some 200+ years of modern chemists continuing to do the same. That's more than 2000 years of accumulated empirical experience with virtually every single substance readily available at hand to man.

And yet it wasn't before 1933 that heavy water was isolated for the first time, albeit distilling water is one of the most simple chemical operations, done all the time for milleniums!

Moreover, there are indeed a number of reports of a mysterious substance extracted from water, as you know. Sure, many of them are from a time long before there were peer reviewed science magazines of worldwide distribution, and written by researchers who were reluctant to give full accounts of their discoveries (contemporary alchemists still tend to be like that ;) ). So it's not very surprising that this discovery would not become part of general knowledge. But why you would dismiss all those reports as fraud or delusional, when at the same time you readily embrace so much of alchemical writing containing statements no less inacceptable to modern science?

E.g., you have posted repeatedly about the transmutation of elements at low energy levels, even claiming to have accomplished this yourself (if memory serves). And according to some such reports I have read, it seems like those transmutations don't even require complicated set-ups necessarily - yet they have not been discovered and confirmed by "official" science to this day.

The reason may well be that "official" science is based on a set of rigorous assumptions; anything that would violate that frame of reference is rarely explored. And as aforesaid extraction from water is said to require a "flick of the hand", accidental discovery seems somewhat unlikely. But even if an average chemist would by chance distill anything but water out of water, they would tend to dismiss it as some kind of contamination right away. Or at least refrain from publishing their results, especially if the experiment could not be readily reproduced. - Many a brave scientist had to take their hat for publishing a discovery that could not be verified beyond the shadow of a doubt.


Can anyone seriously believe that the "water" of the alchemists can possibly be obtained by such simple methods from such simple substances by themselves? One would have to be very disconnected from reality & common sense to convince himself of such a thing. The reason why alchemy is so tough to unravel is in fact because it is a bit more complex than many malicious and envious alchemists have painted it to be. So it certainly is not a question of just finding some mythical "one matter" that conveniently contains everything to make the Stone and is ready to just "extract" it and recombine it. It is pretty easy to predict that such an approach will not work. Countless legions of seekers failed by manipulating all manner of single minerals, plant & animal-derived products. The "water" of the alchemists is not any "natural" thing, since nature on its own (i.e. without man's intelligent & purposeful intervention) will never make such a thing, therefore it is useless to seek it in nature already made. It is an artificial substance, made by the alchemist himself by combining the right matters that will generate this substance and making them react under the appropriate conditions. It is not any "extraction" but a "synthesis" (to use more modern vocabulary.)

Nobody has claimed to have extracted the Philosopher's Stone per se from water (at least to my knowledge), but rather a starting material for its manufacture.

JDP
06-06-2018, 04:24 PM
And yet it wasn't before 1933 that heavy water was isolated for the first time, albeit distilling water is one of the most simple chemical operations, done all the time for milleniums!

That's because the apparatuses for detecting such a thing were not available long before that. This thing was always there, as a natural impurity of water, though. It did not help anyone who tried to make the Stone with vulgar/common water one bit, nonetheless. So we can very safely discard that vulgar/common water or any of its naturally occurring impurities is the secret of alchemy.


Moreover, there are indeed a number of reports of a mysterious substance extracted from water, as you know. Sure, many of them are from a time long before there were peer reviewed science magazines of worldwide distribution, and written by researchers who were reluctant to give full accounts of their discoveries (contemporary alchemists still tend to be like that ;) ). So it's not very surprising that this discovery would not become part of general knowledge. But why you would dismiss all those reports as fraud or delusional, when at the same time you readily embrace so much of alchemical writing containing statements no less inacceptable to modern science?

E.g., you have posted repeatedly about the transmutation of elements at low energy levels, even claiming to have accomplished this yourself (if memory serves). And according to some such reports I have read, it seems like those transmutations don't even require complicated set-ups necessarily - yet they have not been discovered and confirmed by "official" science to this day.

But all of them work with manipulations of several substances, never with only one. So far, I have never seen anything remotely interesting (from this point of view of "unusual" results) and that wasn't already common knowledge by manipulating any single substance whatsoever. Pretty much all of what you can obtain from such simple single substances that are readily available at hand to the average person has already been probed, discovered and cataloged by other people long ago. That's because it is much easier to investigate the composition of simple naturally-occurring substances than it is to investigate the much more vast and variable world of mixtures and the artificial products they form due to their interactions. That's why all manner of artificial substances are still being discovered, despite the thousands of years of accumulated empirical experience in this department as well, whereas new substances obtained from simple single naturally-occurring substances are rarely so.

zoas23
06-06-2018, 11:35 PM
I have never seen anything remotely interesting (from this point of view of "unusual" results) and that wasn't already common knowledge by manipulating any single substance whatsoever. Pretty much all of what you can obtain from such simple single substances that are readily available at hand to the average person has already been probed, discovered and cataloged by other people long ago.

The problem is the inductive reasoning. Going from "I have never seen" to "thus it doesn't exist".
Some time ago a friend was talking to me about his experiments with water, some of them with a catalyst that should not leave any trace anyway.... and how he was getting a salt that can't be attacked by acids.
I laughed because his catalyst is exactly one of the things I use to clean my ceramic floor... and I get the same salts, except that in my case they are not an "alchemical experiment", but a "domestic burden"... because I can't remove them with anything. I had promised this person a photo, I never sent it, but here it is:

https://s22.postimg.cc/nf8hz8q35/IMG_20180606_201521_044.jpg

So, yes, it is possible to extract salts from water... They may or may not have an alchemical use... they can also become a burden at the house (thus I am no longer using the same products to clean the floor and switched to more conventional methods... I hate this salt that is so hard to remove).

JDP
06-07-2018, 01:00 AM
The problem is the inductive reasoning. Going from "I have never seen" to "thus it doesn't exist".
Some time ago a friend was talking to me about his experiments with water, some of them with a catalyst that should not leave any trace anyway.... and how he was getting a salt that can't be attacked by acids.
I laughed because his catalyst is exactly one of the things I use to clean my ceramic floor... and I get the same salts, except that in my case they are not an "alchemical experiment", but a "domestic burden"... because I can't remove them with anything. I had promised this person a photo, I never sent it, but here it is:

https://s22.postimg.cc/nf8hz8q35/IMG_20180606_201521_044.jpg

So, yes, it is possible to extract salts from water... They may or may not have an alchemical use... they can also become a burden at the house (thus I am no longer using the same products to clean the floor and switched to more conventional methods... I hate this salt that is so hard to remove).

Only if they preexist in the said common/vulgar water, or, as is likely the case here, the other substance being brought into play gives it to the common/vulgar water. Which, by the way, already violates the "one single substance" context I was talking about.

zoas23
06-07-2018, 01:32 AM
Only if they preexist in the said common/vulgar water, or, as is likely the case here, the other substance being brought into play gives it to the common/vulgar water. Which, by the way, already violates the "one single substance" context I was talking about.

It does and it doesn't.
As a way to say it, if you mix water and alcohol... and you heat it for some hours, you'll end up with water again... and no traces of alcohol will be left. So it is a bit relative.

Florius Frammel
06-28-2018, 01:43 PM
I need to withdraw my claim from the first post that the water work seems to be rather new.

The idea of water being some kind of prima materia (or materia prima? Even "der kleine Bauer" seems to confuse the two somehow, reminds me of the possible switching of the words sulphur and mercury) on contrary seems to be very old.

It goes back to the very first theory the alchemists refered on. It is by Thales of Miletus (6th century B.C.), who claimed that all the different substances around us are really modifications of a single primordial substance that he identified as water.

Michael Sternbach
06-28-2018, 07:24 PM
The philosophical basis of the Water Work surely reaches back into antiquity, but I am still uncertain when Alchemists began to regard 'celestial water' as an actual starting material for the Great Work. Some Arabic treatises already refer to dew, however, in what context, I do not know.

The terms 'prima materia' and 'materia prima' are interchangeable, to my knowledge. This also dates back to ancient Greek natural philosophy, with its concept of 'proton hyle', of which 'prima materia' is a literal translation.

JDP
06-28-2018, 08:55 PM
The philosophical basis of the Water Work surely reaches back into antiquity, but I am still uncertain when Alchemist began to regard 'celestial water' as an actual starting material for the Great Work. Some Arabic treatises already refer to dew, however, in what context, I do not know.

The terms 'prima materia' and 'materia prima' are interchangeable, to my knowledge. This also dates back to ancient Greek natural philosophy, with its concept of 'proton hyle', of which 'prima materia' is a literal translation.

The already quoted Turba Philosophorum already mentions "dew", and it is an Arabic work written around the 9th-10th century AD, but with Alexandrian/Byzantine origins. In other words, the alchemist who composed it based the text on older Greek language texts. But you can easily tell that actual dew is not what is meant. Dew is just common/vulgar/ordinary water with some organic/inorganic impurities dissolved in it. It will never coagulate into a permanent, "fixed" solid substance that penetrates into molten metals, unlike the "dew" the alchemists talk about. It's just one of the many "decknamen" that the alchemists used for their "water".

elixirmixer
06-28-2018, 09:21 PM
I am going to prove to you JDP, EMPIRICALLY, that your wrong about the dew.

Within 6 months. Ill bet you $5.oo US that I can prove EMPIRICALLY that the dew is 'imbued' with something additional that your taking for granted.

JDP
06-28-2018, 10:04 PM
I am going to prove to you JDP, EMPIRICALLY, that your wrong about the dew.

Within 6 months. Ill bet you $5.oo US that I can prove EMPIRICALLY that the dew is 'imbued' with something additional that your taking for granted.

I have already experimented with dew. You are wasting your time & money. There is nothing remotely "alchemical" about it.

Schmuldvich
06-28-2018, 10:16 PM
There you have it, Elixirmixer.

JDP couldn't find anything Alchemical with dew, therefore NO ONE can!

Case closed.

Move along.

https://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif https://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif

-----------------------

6 months is a short time, Elixirmixer. How do you plan to operate with your materia?

Kibric
06-28-2018, 11:56 PM
but I am still uncertain when Alchemist began to regard 'celestial water' as an actual starting material for the Great Work.
In Sumeria the priests were taught how to prepare the " Flower of Life " from the gods. They were not allowed to have the Flower itself, that was reserved for the gods
but they were allowed to drink the water in which they prepared it.
I can only imagine that would be the inception of a celestial water that an alchemist could physical handle.

There is also a watery discharge from electrostatic fields created by two obelisks covered in electrum, that Egyptian High priests used for medicinal purposes.


It goes back to the very first theory the alchemists refered on. It is by Thales of Miletus (6th century B.C.), who claimed that all the different substances around us are really modifications of a single primordial substance that he identified as water.
If we were to find such a thing.
What could we take away from the earth and still have life ?
What are the fundamental substances all life on earth need to exist ?
We could whittle down that list, to the essential elements needed to create life.

JDP
06-29-2018, 12:33 AM
There you have it, Elixirmixer.

JDP couldn't find anything Alchemical with dew, therefore NO ONE can!

Case closed.

Move along.

https://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif https://i.imgur.com/G5HEc3p.gif

-----------------------

6 months is a short time, Elixirmixer. How do you plan to operate with your materia?

Not surprised that you miss the point... again. It's not just me, it's the accumulated experience of centuries worth of all manner of seekers and experimenters. My experience is just one more in that long trail. Dew = dead end. Just like that "one matter" that you naively think it's going to lead you to success by "cooking" it for months and months. Same thing. Easy to predict that it's 99.9% sure you will fail. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes. Anyone acquainted with history and provided with lots of common sense and empirical experience won't be surprised at all. Centuries worth of repeated failures by all manner of seekers trying to follow such a naive approach do not lie.

Kibric
06-29-2018, 01:12 AM
Dew = dead end
Dew can't be entirely dismissed in alchemy.

The practise of pouring water over stone idols came from the belief that when the water seaped out from the stone, it became a medicine.
In Mooligai Karpam they scrape the morning dew off the stone idols as well and mix it with plants.

Dew by itself maybe a alchemical dead end, but its been used in Thathu and Seeva Karpam ( Siddha alchemy ) for a long time.

Dragon's Tail
06-29-2018, 03:07 AM
Dew can't be entirely dismissed in alchemy.

In Mooligai Karpam they scrape the morning dew off the stone idols as well and mix it with plants.

Dew by itself maybe a alchemical dead end, but its been used in Thathu and Seeva Karpam ( Siddha alchemy ) for a long time.

Ever left a quartz crystal sitting around? After a while, it seems to coat itself in an oily substance, but very little of it. I've never thought about collecting it.

Florius Frammel
06-29-2018, 04:10 AM
It also came to my mind that the reason why suddenly in the late 17th century a lot of tractats were about dew is because they saw how a lot of people financially ruined themselves with high temperature mineral work. No need to mention health issues.

With water and especially dew the people could be occupied for a long time while working safely at almost no costs and the idea of it as the "universal way" is indeed somehow logical in the alchemical believe system of that time.

Andro
06-29-2018, 06:47 AM
There are R+C texts describing dew works, and there are even a few explicit methods (involving common dew) that have been posted on this forum, years ago.

It's not a super-potent "agent", but one can do some cool things with it.

JDP
06-29-2018, 06:59 AM
It also came to my mind that the reason why suddenly in the late 17th century a lot of tractats were about dew is because they saw how a lot of people financially ruined themselves with high temperature mineral work. No need to mention health issues.

With water and especially dew the people could be occupied for a long time while working safely at almost no costs and the idea of it as the "universal way" is indeed somehow logical in the alchemical believe system of that time.

But the difference is that the "high temperature mineral work" actually gives some encouraging positive results. The dew thingy is nonsense that has never produced even a particle of gold or silver. Common water is useless in alchemy and chymistry, except as a simple solvent/diluting medium for some substances (example: some acids, gases and salts), which is eventually removed altogether from the operations after it has served its purpose. In other words: pretty similar to the use that ordinary chemistry has for common water.

Florius Frammel
06-29-2018, 11:01 AM
It's not a super-potent "agent", but one can do some cool things with it.

For example?

Andro
06-29-2018, 11:03 AM
For example?

There are some methods posted on the forum, one only has to search.

Like various "Dew & Sea Salt" processes, for example.

Or the Roger Guasco method, from his book "The Dew Burns the Salt".

Florius Frammel
06-29-2018, 11:04 AM
JDP,

you said you already worked with dew but got disappointed by it's effects. May I ask what kind of experiments you performed with dew?

Florius Frammel
06-29-2018, 11:20 AM
There are some methods posted on the forum, one only has to search. Like various "Dew & Sea Salt" processes, for example.

Yes, some of these experiments I'm trying to reproduce at the moment. However the only interesting observation I could draw out of those posts was the supposed lowering of melting-points. And that can be explained by the fact that some salts that contain water molecules in their ion lattice only seem to melt but in fact solute in it's own water that is set free when mildly heating it. You can see that effect by yourself when heating some blue copper sulfate.

Secrecy and educational values may be good and well. But hiding essential information like clear operation steps does not help when simultaneously claiming miraculously properties of substances.

I can understand when some are afraid of having put their claims to the test. They can be proven wrong. And it's hard to face the possibility that one's believe system that's based on subjective interpretations of observations may fall apart when tested and empirically rejected by others.

The only experiment that would suit for such tests is imbing seasalt with 40l of dew. Unfortunately it's not that easy to collect such amounts of pure dew.

JDP
06-29-2018, 11:28 AM
JDP,

you said you already worked with dew but got disappointed by it's effects. May I ask what kind of experiments you performed with dew?

One experiment involved silver. It seemed to work at first, but then by trial & error I realized that the dew had nothing to do with it, contrary to what the author from whom I got the experiment thought. I got small amounts of the black calx from silver without using dew at all. The dew did not really serve any purpose that plain water couldn't do just as well. Other experiments involved dissolving salts in dew to supposedly "activate", "animate", or make them "canonical", and the like nonsense claims. Face the facts, folks: dew is nothing but vulgar water with some impurities dissolved in it. Nothing else to it. Move on. This is nothing but a big dead-end.

Andro
06-29-2018, 11:32 AM
Only your experiments will prove you right or wrong. You only have to prove it to yourself.

Sounds like you're complaining that people are not posting "clear operational steps". Well, life is not always fair :)

Ask JDP if he would publicly post "clear operational steps" for a x10 or x100 projection powder :)


it's not that easy to collect such amounts of pure dewApparently life ain't always easy, either :)

You might as well complain to the old masters and good authors why they didn't give "complete operational steps" in their books. They were apparently afraid to be proven wrong, that must be the reason :)

And if you actually take the time and search the forums, you'll find quite a few rather detailed processes with dew and other "waters". Most of them focused on medicinal properties - but less so for transmutation, when common dew is involved.


PS: It is my personal belief that quite a few alchemical authors used code/cover words ("Decknamen") to mostly communicate with each other and less for the common reader/"outsider".

Andro
06-29-2018, 11:51 AM
Addendum: Could there be "something in the air" at the times when nature changes/renews itself? (like during transition seasons).

What could those alchemists have in mind when talking about those seasons and the "waters" collected during those times?

Andro
06-29-2018, 12:18 PM
Addendum II: In my experience, common dew and other such "waters" are by themselves very weak (alchemically speaking). Far from possessing the required potency.

One may need quite big quantities and/or a long time and/or additional manipulations to achieve "something (somewhat) worthwhile".

It's not impossible, but not really worth the time and effort, IMO - unless one really likes to experiment and tinker with stuff...

black
06-29-2018, 01:14 PM
From Artephius

.........that the matter may be filled with spirit from the air, and live.

For naturally all things take life from the inbreathing of the air; and so
also our magistery receives .......

Florius Frammel
06-29-2018, 02:06 PM
Only your experiments will prove you right or wrong. You only have to prove it to yourself.

One's mind isn't always a reliable judge. Some are sure the voices in their head are god's and tell them to kill other people.



Sounds like you're complaining that people are not posting "clear operational steps". Well, life is not always fair :)

Ask JDP if he would publicly post "clear operational steps" for a x10 or x100 projection powder :)

No, I'm not complaining about the fairness of others or life in general. Neither am I complaining about hard work.
It becomes critical when claiming things that can't be verified. And I'm not talking about the useless attempt to try to verify if one really has the voice of god in his mind or similar claims which simply can't be verified 100% true or false. But with nature's laws and it's matter's properties and reactions it's a different thing.




You might as well complain to the old masters and good authors why they didn't give "complete operational steps" in their books. They were apparently afraid to be proven wrong, that must be the reason :)

That is indeed a reason why alchemy is so facinating. The riddles are part of the game. It only seems that in posing more/similar new riddles nowadays, one can get the impression that some are just trying to raise themselves on the same level like the old masters. That is by many interpreted as an implausible move. Like those "Rockstar moves" some band members sport on those funny pictures in some magazines or music videos.




And if you actually take the time and search the forums, you'll find quite a few rather detailed processes with dew and other "waters". Most of them focused on medicinal properties - but less so for transmutation, when common dew is involved.

Yes, I have. And none of them I've seen so far convinced me. For example I can as well claim I was feeling sick the whole week until I ate a box of kleenex. So kleenex must be the panacea.




PS: It is my personal belief that quite a few alchemical authors used code/cover words ("Decknamen") to mostly communicate with each other and less for the common reader/"outsider".

Here I agree with you!

Andro
06-29-2018, 02:23 PM
So, did ANY of the "water works" convince you enough to keep tinkering and experimenting with it?

If so, which one(s)?

Do you think some of them are BS? Do you think some of them are "legit"?

Andro
06-29-2018, 02:40 PM
Quoth Kibric (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/entry.php?91-quot-Civilisation-is-a-deception-quot-A-Hermit-s-Guide-to-Longevity):


Drinking dew


Dew is rich in oxygen and great for the skin. If we apply morning dew to our skin within weeks we can look more youthful.
Hermits have know for ages the benefits of drinking dew, and dew has always been seen as life sustaining through many cultures.
Only now are scientists rediscovering there was method to their madness.

"To the ancient Chinese, dew symbolized immortality, and was an important part of Taoist philosophy and practice. The Immortals of Taoism were said to be perfected beings who lived on mountains, fed on the wind, sipped the dew, and experienced ecstatic flight. It was believed that dew which formed around temples and at sacred places was especially beneficial. "

Dew and Flower Essences
http://www.floracopeia.com/education...ower-essences/ (http://www.floracopeia.com/education/dew-and-flower-essences/)

Dew was also important to alchemists. Paracelsus collected it, alchemists experimented with it a few ways, and it found its way into Magick.

"We have found in a “Magia Divina” the following directions for accomplishing a perpetuum mobile naturæ, the efficacy of which we leave for the reader to decide."

“During the twelve nights after Christmas 1½ measures of dew are collected from fruit-trees, and preserved well enclosed. In the month of March dew is again collected from both fruit-trees and meadows and is preserved in another phial. Dew collected in May is poured in a third and rain of a thunderstorm during the summer in a fourth. Thereupon the contents of the four phials are mixed and one measure of it is poured into a great transparent glass retort where, well covered, it must remain a month until it becomes foul. Put it then over fire and subject to heat of the second degree. When sufficiently distilled a substance thick as honey is left. In this residue are poured four grains of astral tincture. The mixture is exposed to a heat of the first degree, by which it is converted into a thick, jet-black lump which again is dissolved, forming below an ink-like fluid, and above a vapor, in which many colors and figures are seen. These soon disappear, and every thing is changed into water, which begins to turn green, and green palaces, constantly enlarging, and mountains and lovely pastures appear, while the water is diminished more and more. When now you find that no more dew rises from the earth within the glass, take the water which you received from the distillation, mix with it a drachm of astral tincture and pour an ounce of this mixture into the glass bulb. Then every thing begins again to live and grow. Add every month an ounce of this mixture. If then the glass ball is well closed, and is not stirred, a vapor gradually arises, and is condensed into two shining stars, like the sun and the moon, and like the latter, one of these stars waxes and wanes; and all the phenomena of nature, thunder, lightning, hail, rain, snow and dew, will appear in your glass ball as in the real world around you. All this will happen if you keep the great Creator before your eyes and in your heart, and if you conceal from the wicked world this great secret.”

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/39608...-h/39608-h.htm (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/39608/39608-h/39608-h.htm)

Dew is a vital ingredient for a hermit using the natural world to achieve longevity.
Learning how to collect dew is one of the first things to master, if you are going to survive as a hermit.

JDP
06-29-2018, 04:59 PM
From Artephius

.........that the matter may be filled with spirit from the air, and live.

For naturally all things take life from the inbreathing of the air; and so
also our magistery receives .......

He was speaking analogically here. Let's look at the whole passage in context:

It appears then, that this composition is not a work of hands, but a change of the natures; because nature dissolves and joins itself, sublimes and lifts itself up, and grows white, being separated from the feces. And in such a sublimation the more subtile, pure, and essential parts are conjoined; for that with the fiery nature or property lifts up the subtile parts, it separates always the more pure, leaving the grosser at the bottom. Wherefore your fire ought to be gentle and a continual vapor, with which you sublime, that the matter may be filled with spirit from the air, and live. For naturally all things take life from the inbreathing of the air; and so also our magistery receives in the vapor or spirit, by the sublimation of the water.

Our brass or latten then, is to be made to ascend by the degrees of fire, but of its own accord, freely, and without violence; except the body therefore be by the fire and water broken, or dissolved, and attenuated, until it ascends as a spirit, or climbs like argent vive, or rather as the white soul, separated from the body, and by sublimation diluted or brought into a spirit, nothing is or can be done. But when it ascends on high, it is born in the air or spirit, and is changed into spirit; and becomes life with life, being only spiritual and incorruptible. And by such an operation it is that the body is made spirit, of a subtile nature, and the spirit is incorporated with the body, and made one with it; and by such a sublimation, conjunction, and raising up, the whole, both body and spirit are made white.

He is comparing the things that he thought were happening in the "macrocosm" (i.e. the world we live in) with those happening in the "microcosm" (i.e. things happening between the interacting substances within the glass vessels used in the alchemical operations), he certainly is not saying anything about the common air we breathe supposedly being involved in the operations.

BTW, the same author also has an analogical passage on dew, more suitable for this thread:

For it is a living water which comes to moisten the earth, that it may spring out, and in its due season bring forth much fruit; for all things springing from the earth, are endued through dew and moisture. The earth therefore springeth not forth without watering and moisture; it is the water proceeding from May dew that cleanseth the body; and like rain it penetrates them, and makes one body of two bodies. This aqua vite or water of life, being rightly ordered and disposed with the body, it whitens it, and converts or changes it into its white color, for this water is a white vapor, and there- fore the body is whitened with it. It behoves you therefore to whiten the body, and open its unfoldings, for between these two, that is between the body and the water, there is desire and friendship, like as between male and female, because of the propinquity and likeness of their natures.

Once again, these are simply analogies. He is not by any means suggesting that you should actually think that the "spirit" or "water" he is talking about is actually common dew. He is just comparing the action of the secret solvent (i.e. the "dew", "water" or "spirit") on the metallic matters (i.e. the "earth" or "body") he dissolves and then "cooks" in it until they are "radically" united to what he thought was the action of actual dew on actual earth. In his mind the analogy was valid. Today we can just point & giggle in his direction since we know that the things he was using as analogies worked in an entirely different way than the alchemical operations he was describing (dew does not have any such radical effects on the earth itself as he fancied. How organisms seem to "grow out of the earth" was still quite misunderstood in those times. For example, people still took the ramblings of the Bible as some sort of "law", so the fact that in this huge collection of totally uncorroborated fairy tales it is said that a seed must "die" and "putrefy" inside the earth in order for plants to spring forth was enough to be quoted or paraphrased very seriously as if it was a "fact".) Remember that one of the biggest flaws of the alchemists was to fancy themselves "philosophers". A lot of them had a peculiar obsession about projecting the things they were doing in their labs onto the "macrocosm" and tried to derive general conclusions about how the world supposedly worked from the specific things going on inside their lab vessels with the set of specific substances they worked with. That's how all these faulty analogies came to be. In order to properly understand them, though, you need to also understand natural science as they understood it back then. To them they made sense. Today we can just laugh at these naive "analogies". We have the benefit of much more accumulated empirical facts about the world that surrounds us. Still, their theoretical flaws do not take away the validity of their actual empirical discoveries & observations (i.e. the ones going on inside their flasks, retorts, alembics, crucibles, etc.)

black
06-30-2018, 11:19 AM
Hey JDP


He was speaking analogically here.

YES ... he was. But can you see that there could be more layers of understanding
hidden discretely within this analogy.

JDP
06-30-2018, 04:19 PM
Hey JDP



YES ... he was. But can you see that there could be more layers of understanding
hidden discretely within this analogy.

No. It's just an analogy, nothing else. The guy was not suggesting that you can make the Stone with common air or dew.

Florius Frammel
07-01-2018, 06:10 AM
So, did ANY of the "water works" convince you enough to keep tinkering and experimenting with it?

If so, which one(s)?

Do you think some of them are BS? Do you think some of them are "legit"?

I already answered these questions in this thread and elsewhere.
However I repeat that I'm after interesting observations, which I think most of those writers from the 17th and 18th century may have made with actual dew (it's impurities).
I won't go so far as claiming the products have medicinical or transmutation values without sensible testing.

JDP
07-03-2018, 11:25 AM
And here my theory about dew comes in play.
Maybe some felt pity for those poor men losing everything and gave the guys a cheap occupation.
Note: I would have nothing against the possibility that the true universal in fact is about dew. It would have quite some obvious advantages.

But what would be the point? It does NOT work. It's just another false lead. The dew-pushers are just as bad as all the other phony process peddlers. And also there is nothing "cheap" about heating dew or any other useless commonly available substance for months and months. Plus you already pointed out yourself, as anyone who has collected dew also knows, that even though it is technically "free" it takes a lot of labor and time to collect large amounts of it. At the end of all the useless operations with it, even if they would not cost anything, you would still have wasted your time, which is actually more precious than money.

Florius Frammel
07-04-2018, 03:00 PM
But what would be the point? It does NOT work. It's just another false lead. The dew-pushers are just as bad as all the other phony process peddlers. And also there is nothing "cheap" about heating dew or any other useless commonly available substance for months and months. Plus you already pointed out yourself, as anyone who has collected dew also knows, that even though it is technically "free" it takes a lot of labor and time to collect large amounts of it. At the end of all the useless operations with it, even if they would not cost anything, you would still have wasted your time, which is actually more precious than money.

The point could be that there existed good-hearted people who just wanted to avoid that others ruin themselves.
There exist quite some books that say to forget all coals and distilling apparatuses. Mostly those one fire, vessel, matter ones you seem to like so much. ;)
I do think too, that's possible to observe something interesting and at least partially fitting to some interpretations of old texts. I don't know what that exactly is or may be though yet.

JDP
07-04-2018, 05:31 PM
The point could be that there existed good-hearted people who just wanted to avoid that others ruin themselves.
There exist quite some books that say to forget all coals and distilling apparatuses. Mostly those one fire, vessel, matter ones you seem to like so much. ;)
I do think too, that's possible to observe something interesting and at least partially fitting to some interpretations of old texts. I don't know what that exactly is or may be though yet.

But that is still just as bad! You are saving them some money by telling them such fairy tales, but at the same time you are making them waste their time endlessly in these false hopes!

Florius Frammel
07-04-2018, 05:54 PM
But that is still just as bad! You are saving them some money by telling them such fairy tales, but at the same time you are making them waste their time endlessly in these false hopes!

At least their wives and children won't suffer.

Kibric
07-07-2018, 06:15 PM
And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.


Now the house of Israel called the bread manna. It was white like coriander seed and tasted like wafers made with honey.

Numbers 11:7
Now the manna resembled coriander seed, and its appearance was like that of gum resin.

Numbers 11:9
When the dew fell on the camp at night, the manna would fall with it.

Nehemiah 9:15
In their hunger You provided bread from heaven; in their thirst You brought water from the rock. You told them to go in and possess the land which You had sworn to give them.

Psalm 78:24
He rained down manna for them to eat; He gave them grain from heaven.

Psalm 105:40
They asked, and He brought quail and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.



When the layer of dew evaporated, on the surface of the desert a fine flaky substance, as fine as frost, appeared on the ground.

Anyone in a desert area, ever seen this manna ?
something to do with the desert itself, is the missing ingredient when it comes to dew ? ( No interference from man ).

It seems likely " dew pushers " were influenced by the biblical manna. If they focused solely on dew without any additions.
" manna " or " bread of heaven " is referenced in Islam Christianity and Judaism.
Work with dew by itself must originate from trying producing this " manna ", in a microcosm, but because of misinterpretation and misunderstanding, gaps in knowledge
the key ingredient ( the desert itself ) was lost.
" manna " " bread from heaven " is very likely to be a natural phenomena, or strange weather.
Alchemists using dew by itself should consider trying to recreate the desert within a microcosm, in order to produce " manna ".