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elixirmixer
06-13-2018, 12:16 AM
Note: Continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5652-Glass-Alembic&p=57720#post57720).

Alembics are very useful for distilling things extremely gently.

For instance i can pick fresh herb, set the heating mantle to 40 degrees Celsius an then walk away for overnight or even a few days. when i return the herb will be completely dry and the receiving flask is filled with water and some oils.

some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO. Certain forum members probably completely dis-agree with what i said since they consider the workof hollandus to be pyro distillation.

z0 K
06-13-2018, 03:00 PM
Alembics are very useful for distilling thingsextremely gently.

For instance i can pick fresh herb, set the heating mantle to 40 degrees Celsius an then walk away for overnight or even a few days. when i return the herb will be completely dry and the receiving flask is filled with water and some oils.

some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO. Certain forum members probably completely dis-agree with what i said since they consider the workof hollandus to be pyro distillation.

Good luck with that assumption about Hollandus not employing destructive distillation in his vegetable work. I will be curious to see what you get in the end without it. You will not get the water, fire or air necessary to make his vegetable stone.

elixirmixer
06-14-2018, 12:00 AM
z Ok; i know you have had a lot of success with the hollandus-pyro-plant Stone which is why i said what I said.

However the VERY start of the book; Hollandus explains people who burn their material as "fools" that "destroy the virtue" and makes comments which make me believe that he used pyro distillation only on spicy herbs in order to make alkahests for the metallic kingdom.

HOWEVER; my interpretation is a long shot ill admit and leaves plenty of room to be utterly wrong.

But then explain to me; why does Hollandus make a point of called those who over heat their material fools and then go on to discribe a pyro-distilltion process?

elixirmixer
06-14-2018, 12:01 AM
And the "AIR" fraction is simply the early highly volatile vapour; not a dirty yellow tar. IMO.

z0 K
06-14-2018, 03:30 PM
And the "AIR" fraction is simply the early highly volatile vapour; not a dirty yellow tar. IMO.

Your assumption about Air is completely wrong. If only you knew what you were talking about, but that would come from actually completing some experiments based on your impulsive tweaks of the old writings you do not understand at all.

z0 K
06-14-2018, 03:40 PM
z Ok; i know you have had a lot of success with the hollandus-pyro-plant Stone which is why i said what I said.

However the VERY start of the book; Hollandus explains people who burn their material as "fools" that "destroy the virtue" and makes comments which make me believe that he used pyro distillation only on spicy herbs in order to make alkahests for the metallic kingdom.

HOWEVER; my interpretation is a long shot ill admit and leaves plenty of room to be utterly wrong.

But then explain to me; why does Hollandus make a point of called those who over heat their material fools and then go on to discribe a pyro-distilltion process?

Hollandus calls all his rivals fools. Specifically he disagreed with Paracelsus and Ripley and their followers. You don't seem to have realized that Hollandus gives 5 different ways to prepare the vegetable stone or quintessence. Everyone of them requires destructive distillation to get sulfur, mercury, air, water, fire and earth to make the various processes work.

You do not have an interpretation of Hollandus Vegetable Operas you have a spurious assumation. You actually have to read the whole thing. Then set up some experiments based upon what you think you understand. Run the experiments to see if you have a valid interpretation.

elixirmixer
06-15-2018, 12:26 AM
zK0: i have performed pyro distillation. Not a fan of the decomposition processes. Hollandus Vegetable Stone was suppose to cure cancer and transmute metals. Does your pyro stone do that?

I also feel as if I DO understand Hollandus; because when i performed my "assumptions" i ended up with a powerful volatile salt, albeit in tiny tiny quantities, and a bright deep red sulfur. I used corriander. I did not exceed about 80 degrees.

black
06-15-2018, 01:14 AM
You actually have to read the whole thing.
Then set up some experiments based upon what you think you understand.
Run the experiments to see if you have a valid interpretation.
@ z0 K

This is such good advice z0 k ... and not just for Mr. Mixer but for all who are
persuing this work of alchemy.

@ Mr. Mixer

I have a feeling that Hollandus's writings can take us down a much deeper
rabbit hole than is first evident. As with the written works of all the old
masters there appears to be many levels of understanding.

As we attain to a level of understanding (proven through our lab) then another level opens with continued reading and lab work.

elixirmixer
06-15-2018, 08:25 AM
I also believe it is a very deep drop from the general outline of the text to the deeper operations. For instance; i just finally worked out the Spirit of Salt; which if your not working with it then "you work in vain". Theres lots more I could say but ive mentioned pretty thoroughly my views on the hollandus text elsewhere.

Where i believe it applies here; is that if we look at the very first clues; we see him mentioning that it is foolish to burn away the subtle essences and that those who burn the plant work in vain. He then goes on to describe the work of pyro-distillation; however, when i read the text; and applied my understanding, it did result in a sweet red liquor; quite agreeable. I drank all of it.

It wasnt perfect mind you and because my knowledge of salt volatizing is still quite limited (in that even though i know what to do it just hasnt clicked and i havent succeeded) it was not overlly powerful and only had very minor amounts of volatized salts that were not visible.

But still gave me the same sweet; red liquor that im aure did me some good.

Why are people so hesitant? How do you know im not right if you havent tried? Whilst i have looked into and tried the pyro path and do not find it to be very rich in "therapeutic" substances.

I also watched the z 0K videos; and while very interesting, im not sure that i found it very related to the hollandus text or seemed to follow any type of procedure im familiar with. Not saying its wrong; just saying that i dont really understand exactly what it is the operstor is attempting to do in the videos.

Even with pyro-distillation as a factor; i would still most certainly be regarding Hollandus endless focus on the 4 elements, which ultimatly is the two elements. Mercury-Salt and Sulfur. I didnt see any volatized salts in the zOK work which is why i find it hard to attribute that work with Hollandus text.

Ill go back and read it again now and see if my opinion changes; ill admit i havent peeped through it in a few months now.

elixirmixer
06-17-2018, 03:34 AM
For the sake of clarity i have designated z Ok's pyro distillation as "The Dry Path"and my gentle chemical extraction "The Wet path."

I just watched a video again on the dragons breathe which i believe is attributed to Z's work.

Awesome photography of what is clearly a well thought out operation. Im not sure exactly what you re distilling, nevertheless, great close up lens and amazing visuals of the dragons breathe.

I opened this thread as an invitation for us to collectively analyse and study these important texts.

The text I find of most interest is in the AMORC Alchemical manuscript series.

I haven't complied any arguments yet, just setting up my platform now. we are moving in to days so this will be a dragged out process but my min focus of work right now is "The Hand" and is therefore ideal to continue studying this topic because it was my previous topic of study and the two, herbs and salt work, i believe are intimately related.

Dragon's Tail
06-17-2018, 04:42 AM
Both, plus at least two more. ;)

Schmuldvich
06-17-2018, 11:10 PM
Great thread, EM.

I have asked z0 K specific questions (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4940-Our-Blackness-Putrefaction/page3) before but it seems he is not inclined to answer specifics.

The guy has a magnificent lab, shoots incredible videos, and is well-versed on Alchemical literature (especially Ripley), but he only shares what he is willing to share and will not answer the exceedingly simple direct question "What are you able to accomplish worthwhile?"

While I agree that z0 K is more practiced than most of us, has more experience, and has contributed many articles in the realm of "Alchemy" than any of us ever will, I still have my doubts as to if z0 K actually knows what he is talking about.

I do certainly believe he has a firmer grasp than most of us regarding Alchemical principles; I do not believe he has it all figured out or understands as much as he thinks he understands.



You say, Elixirmixer, that "some alchemists believed this gentle distillation was absolutely necessary for certain things. Hollandus was a fan. I believe it is the core foundation understanding of the text that everytime it says, distill, calcine, burn, put to the flame, baymarie, ect (IMO) are ALL talking about the gentle distillation we see in the alembic and NOTHING else. Not the extreme heats that he is writing about, this is all a trick IMO."

YES!!! Artephius agrees too.







"The Secret Book Of Artephius" by Artephius

It sufficeth thee then to put the bodies in the vessel, and into the water once and for all, and to close the vessel well, until a true separation is made. This the obscure artist calls conjunction, sublimation, assation, extraction, putrefaction, ligation, desponsation, subtilization, generation, etc. Now the whole magistery may be perfected, work, as in the generation of man, and of every vegetable; put the seed once into the womb, and shut it up well. Thus you may see that you need not many things, and that this our work requires no great charges, for that there is but one stone, there is but one medicine, one vessel, one order of working, and one successive disposition to the white and to the red. And although we say in many places, take this, and take that, yet we understand, that it behoves us to take but one thing, and put it once into the vessel, until the work be perfected. But these things are so set down by obscure philosophers to deceive the unwary, as we have before spoken; for is not this "ars cabalistica" or a secret and a hidden art? Is it not an art full of secrets? And believest thou O fool that we plainly teach this secret of secrets, taking our words according to their literal signification? Truly, I tell thee, that as for myself, I am no ways self seeking, or envious as others are; but he that takes the words of the other philosophers according to their common signification, he even already, having lost Ariadne's clue of thread, wanders in the midst of the labyrinth, multiplies errors, and casts away his money for naught.

In fact, I feel as if this is where most people who practice "Alchemy" sincerely err.







"The Words Of Father Aristeus To His Son"


...the fire must be light, mild, and moist, like that of a hen brooding over her eggs, and it must be sustained in such a manner that it will cook without burning the aerial fruits....







"Epistle On The Mineral Fire" by Pontanus


...Know the propertion of your fire, namely that it is to be no stronger than only to excite the matter....

z0 K replies, "good luck with that assumption about Hollandus not employing destructive distillation in his vegetable work."

In my opinion, Hollandus is quite clear about not using too high of heat in his operations, and he also warns that our Work takes a long time and is not to be rushed.







"De Lapide Philosophorum" by Hollandus

My child, you must know that in this Art there are many mistakes, especially in the Vegetable Work. It requires much regulating of the fire.

In addition, much work and time are required for the rectification of the wine; also, much work to make the Water fixed and to keep the spirits from flying away. All that requires a long time, as is known by all who have tried it.

Further, much work and time are required for the putrefaction and digestion, which have to be handled very delicately with the proper regimen, not too weak and not too strong.

Also, one has to be cautious at all times to keep the regimen with great care, as many are already well aware.

If we believe that we have done everything right and that nothing is lacking in the prescribed process, we may yet have been careless and kept the fire too hot or not hot enough, through negligence.

If we now wish to make a projection with our work and if it does not do what we intended it to do, we therefore do not obtain any benefit from it, and we do not know what may be wrong or how it could have happened, it is still the non-observance of the details of the prescribed manipulation which we have here related.







"De Lapide Philosophorum" by Hollandus

This is not done, however, with a strong but with a gentle fire. Then the Corruption of Faces which in the Arca are driven above until everything is black.

That is why Morienus says: Take care that you regulate your fire in such a way that you do not obtain whiteness before blackness, the albedo before the nigredo, or all your work is spoiled by the whiteness if it occurs before the blackness.

So it must be a sure method that will drive the Corruption out by fire, and thus must be the purification and Perfection. Be careful in our work for after long and steady boiling the heat consumes the Corruption, faeces and blackness, and changes it into another color, and ever another until it is perfectly white like snow. And it is done gently, so that the elements are not forced, but are gently rectified.

From the videos z0 K posted we are lead to believe that z0 K accomplished his "vegetable stone" in a relatively short period of time, a couple of weeks or a few months.

Fire that Hollandus talks about is not elemental fire (heat). Although external fire (heat) is needed to excite the internal Fire (our Fire) it is evident to me that Hollandus is speaking Philosophically; therefore we are to understand--as the Ancients have pointed out time and time again--that our Fire is not fire (heat) as we know it but something else entirely, something that embodies the characteristics of fire but is not actual fire. Artephius refers to this Fire as our secret Fire.







"The Secret Book Of Artephius" by Artephius


...our secret fire, that is, our fiery and sulphureous water...

Theodorus Mundanus reiterates this point







"The Quintessence Of The Philosophers" by Mundanus


...as it is the highest Mystery of Nature, so it is the greatest Secret of the Philosophers: The fire of the peripatetics is dry; but that of the Hermetic Philosophers is Moist: The common people calcine and burn with a culinary fire, we with a clear and Chrystalline Liquor; for our fire is a sulphureous water...

George Ripley verifies it







"Medulla Alchimae" by Ripley


...Innatural or Preternatural Fire, is a thing accidental, as Heat in an Ague, being made Artifically, and called by the Philosophers a moist Fire, Our generating Water...

From the quotes above we know that our Fire is a liquid substance that has the same characteristics of common fire yet is not visible fire, flame, or heat.

z0 K says, "you do not have an interpretation of Hollandus Vegetable Operas you have a spurious assumation. You actually have to read the whole thing."

Yet if z0 K would have read the whole thing he would not have missed the quote below about his supposed "vegetable stone" not being the real Vegetable Stone if it does not carry out the miraculous things the Vegetable Stone actually does!

Elixirmixer, wonderful conclusion with an excellent question, "I also watched the z0 K videos; and while very interesting, im not sure that i found it very related to the hollandus text or seemed to follow any type of procedure im familiar with. Not saying its wrong; just saying that i dont really understand exactly what it is the operstor is attempting to do in the videos. Hollandus Vegetable Stone was suppose to cure cancer and transmute metals. Does your pyro stone do that?"








"A Work Of Saturn" by Hollandus

This Stone cures all Leprous people, Plague, and all Diseases which may reign upon Earth, or befall Mankind; this is the true Aurum potable, and the true Quintessence which the Ancients sought; this is that thing whereof the whole Troop of Philosophers speak so wondrously, using all possible skill to conceal it's Name and Operation, as aforesaid.

Take of this Stone the quantity of a Wheat-corn, lay it in a little good Wine in a small Glass, half full, or a quarter full, make the Wine warm, the Stone will melt like Butter, and the Wine will be red as Blood, and very sweet in your mouth, as ever you tasted; for to speak comparatively, it is so sweet in taste that Honey and Sugar may be compared as Gall to it; give this unto the Patient to drink, lay him in Bed, but lay not too many clothes upon him, the Stone hastens forthwith to the heart, expelling thence all ill humours, thence dilating itself through all the Arteries and Veins of the whole Body, rousing up all humours, the party will sweat, for the Stone opens all the pores of the Body, and drives forth all humours thereby, so that the Patient will seem to have been in the Water, yet will this sweating not make him sicker, for the Stone expels only what is adverse to Nature, preserving what is consonant unto it in it's being, therefore the Patient is not sicker or weaker; but the more he sweats the stronger and lustier will he be, the Veins will be lighter, and the sweat continues till all evil humours be driven out of the Body, and then it ceases.

The next day you shall take of it the quantity of a Wheat-corn, in warm Wine again, you will go to stool immediately, and that will not cease so long as you have anything in your Body which is contrary to Nature, and the more Stools the Patient hath, the stronger and lighter at heart will he be; for the Stone drives nothing forth but what is adverse and prejudicial to Nature.

The third day give the like quantity in warm Wine, as aforesaid; it will so fortify the Veins and Heart, that the party will not think himself to be a Man, but rather a Spirit, all his members will be so light and lively, & if the party will take the like quantity of a Wheat-corn every day for the space of nine days, I tell you, his Body will be as spiritual as if he had been nine days in the terrestrial Paradise, eating every day of the Fruit, making him fair, lusty and young; therefore use this Stone weekly, the quantity of a Wheat-corn with warm Wine, so shall you live in health unto the last hour of the time appointed for you by God.

He shall be loved and esteemed of all people, for he can cure them all internally and externally of all Diseases which may befall them; but if the Stone doth not so, it is false, and deserves not the name of the Vegetable Stone.

Dragon's Tail
06-18-2018, 06:05 AM
I wonder myself, with the "regulation of heat," if we are casting modern notions about heat onto what we see. A "moist" fire to me suggests vapor. The easiest way to "regulate" the fire since Hermes stole it from the gods has been with water. Water limits your maximum temperature so long as there is sufficient quantity, but care must be taken as it boils off, and ingenuity (BM) to ensure that the flowers don't burn.

EDIT: I'm not agreeing that Z is wrong or mistaken, nor am I taking up with EM, just to be clear. None of these texts give the answer freely, and to think they do means assuming every alchemist before you was an idiot for not figuring out the puzzle before you did. I'm open to dry-distillation and it's possible effects. Hell, I'm still in awe with what can be accomplished from simple spagyric mixes. I also have another experiment I intend to run once the time is available freely to me to do so, and it regards neither theory, nor EM's sweating of moisture. None of us, as far as I know, have produced the stone, though we've all seen glimpses of possibility. Best to keep the options open.

~DT

Andro
06-18-2018, 06:48 AM
I don't know exactly what Z is doing, but it looks and sounds like a super-spirit-charged spagyric.

In "canonical" alchemy, we do not use "common" fire (or "common" anything, for that matter), except for the occasional "cheat" at the beginning of the work, when we collect "our" water (see for example devices such as the Bacstrom or R+C setups), wherein we convert the invisible "Secret Fire" (present in in the air/space) into a tangible water.

This water is what we then use as "our" fire. No sophisticated distillations are required (neither "wet" nor "dry"), no retorts, no alembics, etc... I know this is a cliche, but I'll say it again... It's all basically "Dissolve & Coagulate", from beginning to end (?).

We can find a somewhat relevant (non-alchemical) parallel in the world of metallurgy - like the annealing process in sword-making, for example (but with "common" fire). However, the greatest master sword-makers are able to anneal their swords almost to a level where those are "enspirited". Swords that have a "soul", etc... (Ishay, this one's for you :)) Could it be that the master sword-makers have knowledge of "our" water?

I don't know about the Dry Path, but it it also sounds to me quite similar in principle to the aforementioned annealing process.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

But I digress... Maybe I'll elaborate more on another thread, at another time...

:)

Dragon's Tail
06-18-2018, 07:02 AM
This water is what we then use as "our" fire. No sophisticated distillations are required (neither "wet" nor "dry"), no retorts, no alembics, etc... I know this is a cliche, but I'll say it again... It's all basically "Dissolve & Coagulate", from beginning to end (?).


I think the answer is buried in this statement, but not necessarily at first glance ;)

elixirmixer
06-18-2018, 11:43 AM
That was beautiful Andro. Thank you. On behalf of everyone else i mean. I have already thanked you for this personally; but i think that post is the most clear definition of alchemy ive ever read and could strip decades off a persons search for alchemical truth.

Mavelous truly; and I suppose the scriptures were destined to be fullfilled.

"All hidden things, will be revealed"

And certainly there are deep things in what Andro said DT; but please oh oh OH please do not overlook the straightforward meaning of what Andro has just shared with you. In fact; meditate on it relentlessly.

z0 K
06-18-2018, 01:58 PM
Trash talk is easy and effortless. Off your asses and get to work if you want a response from me.

Andro
06-18-2018, 03:54 PM
Trash talk is easy and effortless. Off your asses and get to work if you want a response from me.

Hi z0 K,

Just in case your response was (also) directed towards me:

1. There was absolutely no intention of "trash talk". I genuinely apologize if it was perceived as such. My comments referred to what is generally considered "canonical" alchemy. This doesn't exclude or invalidate other paths.

2. I AM working, not just talking. What I wrote is from experience, although not all the way to the "Consumatum Est" :)

3. I haven't asked you any questions, because my approach to lab work is very different from yours.

I with you success in your endeavors!

Andro
06-18-2018, 04:01 PM
please do not overlook the straightforward meaning of what Andro has just shared

Correct. It was very straightforward indeed.

z0 K
06-18-2018, 05:33 PM
OK, Andro.

You should probably explain what you mean by "cannonical" alchemy and how that differs from classical alchemy and spagyria. Then you will have to explain what you mean by "Secret Fire" and distinguish that from Elemental Fire and Fire against Nature. And since everyone knows what common fire is explain to them how common fire relates to Elemental Fire and Secret Fire and Fire against Nature.

Also it would be helpful if you posted some photos ”wherein we convert the invisible 'Secret Fire' (present in the air/space) into a tangible water." Then explain the nature of the Fire in that Water. No cheating allowed.

Maybe you should elaborate now. I certainly have detailed an alchemical process from beginning to end. And for the trash mongers here the easiest way to trash me is to follow the procedure and demonstrate it does not work.

From what I see here Andro, you are talking and not working. However I see no need for you to be trashed here which will happen if you reveal any details of your lab work.

Personally I don't give a shit what the demonstrably foolish have to heckle about. I did not detail the processes for the lazy dilettantes.

This thread is a farce. There is no Hollandus debate here, Wet or Dry.

Andro
06-18-2018, 06:05 PM
From what I see here Andro, you are talking and not working.

You don't know me and your assumption is incorrect. I have posted pictures of lesser works I've done in the past (salt volatilizations, etc...), but what I'm talking about here goes way beyond what's suited for a public forum.


if you reveal any details of your lab work.

See above. Not gonna happen. Certainly not on a public forum.


I did not detail the processes for the lazy dilettantes.

I suggest to everyone (who is so inclined) to replicate z0 K's work and see for themselves.

My own approach is vastly different, so I have no intention of replicating it.

Nor do I have any intention to clarify "fire nomenclatures" that do not directly pertain to my own work.

There is a difference between Alchemy, Spagyrics and "High Spagyrics".

In "High Spagyrics", the practice and the MO are still basically "spagyrical" in nature (common calcinations, dry/wet distillations, sublimations, etc), but the Universal Spirit is involved as well. There are degrees to it.

Finally, as far as I am concerned, there is only one fire in alchemy (besides the sparingly used "vulgar" fire), which is constantly "evolving" and may be named differently at different stages.

I have no reason to doubt that your Work results in potent medicine.

The goals of my work and research go somewhat beyond just that.

In the end, it may well turn out that we will have "argued" over nothing :)

elixirmixer
06-18-2018, 08:52 PM
Z this thread is not; and will not be a trashing of your good works. We are simply exploring ideas and using the differences in our understanding of Hollandus as a playform from which to grow.

I think most people are pretty impressed with your video; and while none of us are really as deeply emgaged in pyro-distillations as you are; as far as i can tell, everyone here respects your opinion on the matter and is rather impressed with your videos.

There ARE clearly different ways to interpret any text that is willing to contradict itself. Hollandus is always pulling double blinds; says not to do something, then goes right ahead and does it; only to go right back to philosophies that state the work to be done differently.

So how can you be certain that the process is pyro. It was a common thing among alchemists to use other chemical processes to describe a different situation.

In this case, i believe Hollandus uses a standard pyro distillation; which also creates a medicinal, to describe basically the process of extracting the sulphur from grapevines and volatizing the ashes.

You COULD go EVEN DEEPER and consider the entire text to simply be explinations of what Andro has just been talking about. Volatizing Salts using "Our" Fire. And not a vegetable work AT ALL.

It really is hard to tell. I mean; someone who had mastered the Hand of the Philosophers; what use would he have in a bit of wine? Ya know? He already had mega gold oils and the such. The grapevine could very well just repressed the "abundance" which is in the air, or again it could simply mean potash; since grapevines have the one of the highest concentrations of potassium in their wood ashes.

Dragon's Tail
06-19-2018, 01:32 AM
Correct. It was very straightforward indeed.

You were, but there are still a few veiled language points (fire). We all have our definitions of what that term could or does mean. Whether we agree, I can't say, because we all interpret that part for ourselves. The statement on it's own...I agree with 100%, at least until proven otherwise ;) Of course, if my "fire" is different from your "fire," then we're talking about two different things.

Dragon's Tail
06-19-2018, 01:35 AM
I suggest to everyone (who is so inclined) to replicate z0 K's work and see for themselves.

Agree completely.
I've already created more "things" from my one thing than I know what to do with, lol. And I'm only at the beginning stages. Really, if you were willing to spend weeks/months/years on spagyrics, it won't hurt to try a little pyro, just to see what you are looking at. Each step of the process reveals something new and interesting, like the blood red gel that is sitting in the bottom of one of my flasks.

black
06-19-2018, 04:40 AM
This water is what we then use as "our" fire. No sophisticated distillations are required (neither "wet" nor "dry"), no retorts, no alembics, etc... I know this is a cliche, but I'll say it again... It's all basically "Dissolve & Coagulate", from beginning to end (?).

Mr. Andro this almost sounds too good to be true.

I have read that the Great Work is easy (women's work and child's play)

If this is correct (and I pray it is) then I get a feeling that we could almost
complete this work with an old jam jar or something similar with a
hermetically sealing lid or stopper.

All those many dollars I have spent over the years buying all sorts of
elaborate laboratory glassware ... looks like it will all go into boxes now
and get packed away.

Thank you for this most interesting revelation.


"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

How very True.

Andro
06-19-2018, 05:17 AM
All those many dollars I have spent over the years buying all sorts of elaborate laboratory glassware... looks like it will all go into boxes now and get packed away.

Same here... Only my old stuff has been already packed or given away some years ago...

Yet, I do think that results can be obtained by more "complex" means - however I personally don't see the sense in this.

But it's in our nature to over-complicate everything :)

Andro
06-19-2018, 05:26 AM
there are still a few veiled language points (fire). We all have our definitions of what that term could or does mean.

It's much less about what it "means" than it is about what it does.

Fire introduces motion, vibration. Read the Hermetic Principle of Vibration in the Kybalion.

"Our" fire can go where common fire can't, i.e. scale, ingress into matter, etc...

"Our" fire moves/vibrates much "deeper" into matter, for example.

It goes where no common fire has gone before :)

Acids (for example) are a type of "fire", in a sense. Some people I know even consider acid to be a sort of "fire against nature".

black
06-19-2018, 06:16 AM
But it's in our nature to over-complicate everything :)

YES ... I can see this being one of our greatest hurdles to the attainment
of understanding in this Art.

zoas23
06-19-2018, 06:49 AM
This thread is a farce. There is no Hollandus debate here, Wet or Dry.

There is one, I mean a debate... but most of it is based on speculations which have not been tested.
And then there is your debate with Andro, which is a bit pointless, because the two of you have absolutely different ways, methods, approaches to alchemy... so it looks a bit like a Darwin vs. Einstein debate, two theories that don't really juxtapose.

elixirmixer
06-19-2018, 10:11 AM
This debate is not based on speculations. Its based on the fact that z Ok made something he believes to be a great medicine which he created by interpreting Hollandus text; and i interpreted it differently, used completely different methods and resulted in something that truly impressed me also.

If we all had the time, focus, and discipline required, we would go through what Hollandus has said and use quotes to back up why we might think he was speaking in a particular fashion or about a particular process. I suppose the pyro argument is simple. Hollandus was being literal with what he wrote. I believe there are hints that suggest otherwise which i will compile over the next few weeks as i study other parts of his texts.

Mr Black. The Andro revelation is upon us! Lol. A jam jar could certainly do it. Although im not sure im as patient about it all as the rest seem to be. Well ive been patient in setting up; because i want to see some epic results for this stuff because im so excited about it.

The fire Andro is talking about is not visible itself. It is only known through its effect on matter; except in some extreme senarios where it is manifested on its own; howevrr im not sure ill succeed at this straight away, and while favourable; i dont think its necessary, and ill be trying to power things up in other ways.

I could go on yet i shant at this stage.

JDP
06-19-2018, 12:54 PM
Mr. Andro this almost sounds too good to be true.

I have read that the Great Work is easy (women's work and child's play)

If this is correct (and I pray it is) then I get a feeling that we could almost
complete this work with an old jam jar or something similar with a
hermetically sealing lid or stopper.

All those many dollars I have spent over the years buying all sorts of
elaborate laboratory glassware ... looks like it will all go into boxes now
and get packed away.

Thank you for this most interesting revelation.



How very True.

I think that history, common sense and empirical experience should have told you that what is being proposed is nothing but a fairy tale. A romantic speculation with no basis at all in reality. Again, people are not that stupid and inept. If alchemy was really so simple it would have ceased to be a mystery to most people a very long time ago. Also, alchemy would be much more ancient than it actually is. We only start hearing about alchemy precisely after distillation apparatuses come into the picture. There is a reason for that. Alchemy is intrinsically intertwined with technology, more specifically, distillation technology. Without it, it would have never appeared. So anyone who tells you that the Stone can be made without using such devices and all it takes is an empty jar and some mysterious and totally unproven "spirit" that is supposedly floating around everywhere (but at the same time has mysteriously and very suspiciously evaded detection for ages, except, of course, by the people who claim it does exist, no one else) is simply selling you a nice tall bottle of snake oil; whether they realize it or not, and thus are doing it on purpose out of malice to mislead you into Utopian blind alleys or unwittingly because they have somehow convinced themselves it's all "real" and "proven", is a different issue.

black
06-19-2018, 03:01 PM
I think that history, common sense and empirical experience should have told you that what is being proposed is nothing but a fairy tale.

A romantic speculation with no basis at all in reality ?

REALITY being a Key word.

Many years ago because of working with History, Common Sense and Empirical Experience, I was restrained to suffering a blindness of the possibilities of what can be.

I was so very narrow minded and because of this condemned to a life of servitude to
my own ignorance.

SOMETHING ... lifted this vale from my eyes and gave me a glimpse into a much larger reality than I could have ever imagined. What I had always considered to be fairytales and mystical BS openly showed itself to be as palpable as most people find this world.

There are many people that don't believe in transmutation of base metals into silver and
gold and I don't think you would try to convince any of them of the reality of it.

BUT you may suggest that they study, work in their labs and find out for themselves if
it be true or not ?

It can be a good exercise to try and expand our awareness to possibility.:D

PS I can see the value of using distillation in the work.

Dwellings
06-19-2018, 04:53 PM
@black

Please consider carefully what I am about to write.

Read the book The only true way followed by Pontanus epistle. Read it with a fresh and open mind. Your approach and thinking will radically change.

Then read the remonstration of nature in hermetic musueum, he plays a lot with elements, don't fall into that trap. Only once you have understood one book should you move to next.

All your existing apparatus and complexities in your mind will be removed/thrown away.

And you can read my thread easy to read and comprehend alchemical tracts for better understanding.

Hope this helps.

JDP
06-19-2018, 06:36 PM
REALITY being a Key word.

Many years ago because of working with History, Common Sense and Empirical Experience, I was restrained to suffering a blindness of the possibilities of what can be.

I was so very narrow minded and because of this condemned to a life of servitude to
my own ignorance.

SOMETHING ... lifted this vale from my eyes and gave me a glimpse into a much larger reality than I could have ever imagined. What I had always considered to be fairytales and mystical BS openly showed itself to be as palpable as most people find this world.

There are many people that don't believe in transmutation of base metals into silver and
gold and I don't think you would try to convince any of them of the reality of it.

BUT you may suggest that they study, work in their labs and find out for themselves if
it be true or not ?

It can be a good exercise to try and expand our awareness to possibility.:D

PS I can see the value of using distillation in the work.

On the contrary, since I know how real transmutation is, I will do my best to defend that reality (and in principle so should all those who have discovered this reality), which means that one day I will have to in fact explain the whole thing very clearly to everyone so that anyone can carry out the pertinent demonstrations on their own and see for themselves how real the whole thing is. But first I want to make a nice profit out of what has taken me so many years, effort and money to re-discover. No one gave me this for free. I had to pay for it dearly in time, sweat & money out of my own pocket.

But the same can't be done with fairy tales (witches, goblins, leprechauns, ghosts, the tooth-fairy, "Spiritus Mundi", Elvis-is-still-alive, etc.) that only exist in some people's imaginations. These will forever perpetually remain unproven, because no one can prove such things to begin with.

Michael Sternbach
06-19-2018, 08:00 PM
While I believe that there is more than one way to pursue the Great Work, some more simple and straightforward than others, I also assume that there are good reasons why the Alchemists developed all those different kinds of equipment.

elixirmixer
06-19-2018, 09:36 PM
It wasnt neccessarily alchemists who developed distillation was it?...

JDP;


"what no one can prove"

I can prove that Andro's fairy dust indeed exists. In fact as has been told to you, it is capable to visibly see it in certain conditions.

Hell; if you go lay down outside and stare up at the sky, allow your eyes to loose focus, you (or at least i can) can see the spirit popping around like tiny little light particles.

If you havent ever done that before i recommend it. Because going outside and realising that there is a VISIBLE energy in the AIR should start to shift the stuffled point of view.

And thats not even how you prove that its real.

Just like we cannot see the air; but we sense its effect, so to can we (generally) not see the spirit, however, WE know what it does and how it changes the material properties of the things it touches.

Youll notice there is a WE.

Because even though Andro and I have never really had a proper conversation post-to-post on the topic; yet i KNOW exactly what hes talking about BECAUSE its a real thing that was documented in the past.

You say that it has never been scientifically studied or isolated. This is incorrect. Look into the works of William Reich. The biggest American witchhunt of literature in modern history.

The FDA literally ordered his books to be collected and destroyed and him and his partner "commited suicide" in jail which is absolutly bullshit.

JDP; you look at these mans works and then try and tell me again that there is NO BASIS.

There is in fact lots.

Charles littlefield is another example of a scientist who was working with the spirit.

His books "Man, Minerals and Masters" & "The beginnings and origin of Life" both talk about "the vitalization of salts"

Which IMO is what alchemy is. The vitalization of Salt. Nothing more nothing less. IMO.

JDP
06-19-2018, 10:35 PM
It wasnt neccessarily alchemists who developed distillation was it?...

JDP;



I can prove that Andro's fairy dust indeed exists. In fact as has been told to you, it is capable to visibly see it in certain conditions.

Hell; if you go lay down outside and stare up at the sky, allow your eyes to loose focus, you (or at least i can) can see the spirit popping around like tiny little light particles.

If you havent ever done that before i recommend it. Because going outside and realising that there is a VISIBLE energy in the AIR should start to shift the stuffled point of view.

And thats not even how you prove that its real.

Just like we cannot see the air; but we sense its effect, so to can we (generally) not see the spirit, however, WE know what it does and how it changes the material properties of the things it touches.

Youll notice there is a WE.

Because even though Andro and I have never really had a proper conversation post-to-post on the topic; yet i KNOW exactly what hes talking about BECAUSE its a real thing that was documented in the past.

You say that it has never been scientifically studied or isolated. This is incorrect. Look into the works of William Reich. The biggest American witchhunt of literature in modern history.

The FDA literally ordered his books to be collected and destroyed and him and his partner "commited suicide" in jail which is absolutly bullshit.

JDP; you look at these mans works and then try and tell me again that there is NO BASIS.

There is in fact lots.

Charles littlefield is another example of a scientist who was working with the spirit.

His books "Man, Minerals and Masters" & "The beginnings and origin of Life" both talk about "the vitalization of salts"

Which IMO is what alchemy is. The vitalization of Salt. Nothing more nothing less. IMO.

No, the alchemists did not invent distillation, that was discovered by older craftsmen. But once the basics had been invented the alchemists took advantage of the invention and then started improving it.

Yes, most of that stuff you refer to is baloney.

Regarding "Spiritus Mundi": a bunch of ways have been proposed to supposedly "capture" this theoretical thing. None work. All you get is just the humidity of the air, which is just vulgar water with some impurities (pretty much the same thing with dew), or the atmospheric gases in the air affecting some substances and altering their composition (like, for example, the "weathering" of pyrites to form vitriolic salts.) None of which requires the existence of any "Spiritus Mundi" to be able to happen and are quite capable of being explained in more rational ways based on actually tangible substances that can be demonstrated that they do exist, unlike this suppositious "spirit".

elixirmixer
06-19-2018, 11:08 PM
Well; i can tell by your weather rock analogy that you at least know what im talking about and you are just looking at it from a different point of view. I can accept that.

Do you JDP, since your here and i thought of asking you this question last night on this thread: Do you believe Hollandus had the Stone?

black
06-20-2018, 02:01 AM
@ Dwellings

Thank you Dwellings, I have both of these and I do enjoy reading them.


FROM: The Only True Way
For this reason, beloved friend and Brother, you must work hard by day and by night to obtain a thorough knowledge of the metals, and of their essential nature. Then you will be able to understand the requirements of the art. You will know without being told what is the true substance and the true method.
You will see the utter uselessness of your former labour, and you will be amazed at your former blindness.
Study the nature of metals and the causes of their generation, for they derive their birth from the same source as all other created things.

FROM: PONTANUS
They err, have erred and will ever err, in that the Philosophers have placed their veritable agent in but one, single thing, which Artephius named, but speaking only for himself. Had I not read Artephius, nor penetrated and understood, never would I have arrived at the accomplishment of the Work.

black
06-20-2018, 05:42 AM
Hey JDP.


On the contrary, since I know how real transmutation is, I will do my best to defend that reality (and in principle so should all those who have discovered this reality), which means that one day I will have to in fact explain the whole thing very clearly to everyone so that anyone can carry out the pertinent demonstrations on their own and see for themselves how real the whole thing is.

But first I want to make a nice profit out of what has taken me so many years, effort and money to re-discover. No one gave me this for free. I had to pay for it dearly in time, sweat & money out of my own pocket.

Would you do the same if you discovered the Philosophers Stone ???

elixirmixer
06-20-2018, 07:12 AM
Im buying shares in JDP :cool:

JDP
06-20-2018, 01:15 PM
Hey JDP.



Would you do the same if you discovered the Philosophers Stone ???

Very likely not. That would be like "killing the goose that lays the golden eggs". The "chymical" experiments that I was talking about, which one day I will eventually plainly explain, do not give any profit to the operator. The cost in energy and materials to carry them out outweigh the value of the small amounts of gold & silver produced. They serve no other purpose than to demonstrate the reality of the subject. But based on these "chymical" processes, there might in fact be developed others which do leave some profit for the operator. Those are the ones that I am actively seeking now. To me it is no longer a question of "are chymical transmutations real?" but "can they be made to be profitable?"

Dwellings
06-20-2018, 01:19 PM
@ Dwellings

Thank you Dwellings, I have both of these and I do enjoy reading them.

If you had carefully read the works that I prescribed then you would not be suprised by Andro's reply.

This is why I recommended you to read with a fresh and open mind.

I replied to you because you were surprised by his response and I felt that it is an opportunity for you to capitalize if given the push in the right direction. That was my intention.

Rest is upto you.

Dwellings
06-20-2018, 01:23 PM
While I believe that there is more than one way to pursue the Great Work, some more simple and straightforward than others, I also assume that there are good reasons why the Alchemists developed all those different kinds of equipment.

The equipments have their purpose but it is mostly for minors/particulars.

Alchemy proper focuses on our Mercury and if you know to perfect the work with only Mercury and nothing else, you have the stone.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5393-Easy-to-Read-amp-Comprehend-Alchemical-Tracts

z0 K
06-20-2018, 10:17 PM
For the sake of clarity i have designated z Ok's pyro distillation as "The Dry Path"and my gentle chemical extraction "The Wet path."

I just watched a video again on the dragons breathe which i believe is attributed to Z's work.

Awesome photography of what is clearly a well thought out operation. Im not sure exactly what you re distilling, nevertheless, great close up lens and amazing visuals of the dragons breathe.

I opened this thread as an invitation for us to collectively analyse and study these important texts.

The text I find of most interest is in the AMORC Alchemical manuscript series.

I haven't complied any arguments yet, just setting up my platform now. we are moving in to days so this will be a dragged out process but my min focus of work right now is "The Hand" and is therefore ideal to continue studying this topic because it was my previous topic of study and the two, herbs and salt work, i believe are intimately related.

The Vegetable Work I have documented in video is a sampling of more than one way employed by Hollandus (and one by Ripley). You could say he does have a more or less Dry Way but I tweaked his method and grew Philosophical Crystals in the menstruum where others did not. Without that the end product is far less therapeutic. And the Philosophical Crystals are far more energetic therapeutically than the Quintessence process he describes from fresh herbs. However the Quintessence process is much easier to accomplish.

The AMORC Alchemical manuscript series Hollandus Vegetable works are complete unlike the RAMS. Use them for any discussion on the thread that actually focuses on Hollandus vegetable work.

You should realize that the Vegetable work of Hollandus is vast and complex to understand even if you have loads of lab experience. Also your belief that Hollandus is trying to fake you out by describing destructive distillation to deliberately befuddle you is wrongly placed. Hollandus is expert at giving excellent descriptions of lab procedures while leaving out just a few key words that lead one to miss the point yet still carry out the operation only with limited success. Sal Armoniac is an excellent example along with elemental Fire.

Also Ripley uses the same techniques to tell you what to do in the lab generally with the same subtle misdirects that can be resolved when you do the lab work. Without that you are just speculating.

So far you have no argument to compile because you do not have a working understanding based upon lab results that delivered the end product. I do. I am willing to comment on questions compiled from what you think is contradictory or unclear or arbitrary in the text.

If you can complete the Vegetable Work the symbolism of the Hand becomes understandable because the relationships in the Hand are good for all Philosophical works in the lab.

black
06-21-2018, 02:08 AM
If you had carefully read the works that I prescribed then you would not be suprised by Andro's reply.

This is why I recommended you to read with a fresh and open mind.

I replied to you because you were surprised by his response and I felt that it is an opportunity for you to capitalize if given the push in the right direction. That was my intention.

Rest is upto you.

I will read through them again most carefully and pray that something
of this Great Work will show itself to me.

elixirmixer
07-12-2018, 08:40 AM
I find it unusual, that so many people just simply ignore the warnings given at the very start of Hollandus' work. Lets have a look shall we?


Hollandus - This is the Hand of the Philosophers with their dear
secret signs, with which the old sages united with each
other and took oaths. Nobody can understand this Hand
with its secret signs, unless he becomes first a juror of
the philosophers, (one who swore loyalty to a philosopher) ,
and has loyally served them in the Art Alchemia . Conse-
quently, those who have not this Hand and do not understand
its secret signs, nor have taken the oath of loyalty, are
bastards in this Art . They do not possess the philosopher's
treasure. That is why I advise all those who do not possess
the secrets of the Hand not to start workinq in the alchemi-
cal Art, nor to believe books or writings, since they will
all only be cheated in the secrets of the Hand. Therefore,
everybody had better be careful

So now.... lets be real... he didnt say: "oh, but dont worry, im going to tell you and explain to you all our secret secrets for free right here right now"... did he...

He said... "If you dont have the Hand; fuck off" and then he proceeds to explain the hand is some detail... lets have a look at what he says exactly...


Hollandus - "Take living chalk (quicklime) , according
to the quantity of the substance. Pour on
it a good amount of urine . Let the lime
slake in it; after it is slaked, let it
settle, and pour it off above.

So.. what is Salt petre? Typically its Potassium nitrate. So... how the fuck are we going to get gunpowder... from calcium rich limestone and urine? Please explain...?

CLEARLY... Hollandus is talking absolute shit here, at least in the literal sense.

Now lets have a look at what another notorious and well loved traitor has said:


Schmuldvich - The Hand is a cabalistic representation of our Matter, Elixirmixer.

The different fingers represent different stages of our Work/the different phases of our Matter during its maturation into the Philosopher's Stone.

Now from this point of view, things do start to make a little more sense.

Hollandus was not handing out recipes. He was an initiate, writing to the initiated. And NOT to anyone else. He used the general platform of other alchemists, in which he used another process (in this case, pyro-distillation) as an allegorical metaphore to assist in explaining something that otherwise was FORBIDDEN to be written down.

So, if you want to understand Hollandus, and if you want the TRUE vegetable stone; you must consiquently accept and imbibe these principals; otherwise all is in error and fraud. You cant just skip the first few chapters of what is being said, just because its inconvenient. No Salts of the Hand means NO radical transmutations of anything including the human soul.

Sorry; the baldness isnt going anywhere Im afraid :cool: (but if it does let me know, i want hair too) HAHA!

:p

elixirmixer
07-13-2018, 07:27 AM
Today at 11:13 am
by chasm369
AN INTERESTING OBSERVATION BY THE HUMBLED "ELIXIRMIXER"

"I find it unusual, that so many people just simply ignore the warnings given at the very start of Hollandus' work. Lets have a look shall we?"

Hollandus - [This is the Hand of the Philosophers with their dear
secret signs, with which the old sages united with each
other and took oaths. Nobody can understand this Hand
with its secret signs, unless he becomes first a juror of
the philosophers, (one who swore loyalty to a philosopher) ,
and has loyally served them in the Art Alchemia . Conse-
quently, those who have not this Hand and do not understand
its secret signs, nor have taken the oath of loyalty, are
bastards in this Art . They do not possess the philosopher's
treasure. That is why I advise all those who do not possess
the secrets of the Hand not to start workinq in the alchemi-
cal Art, nor to believe books or writings, since they will
all only be cheated in the secrets of the Hand. Therefore,
everybody had better be careful ]
"So now.... lets be real... he didnt say: "oh, but dont worry, im going to tell you and explain to you all our secret secrets for free right here right now"... did he...

He said... "If you dont have the Hand; sdhdsf off" and then he proceeds to explain the hand is some detail... lets have a look at what he says exactly..."

Hollandus - ["Take living chalk (quicklime) , according
to the quantity of the substance. Pour on
it a good amount of \"philosophical dew\" . Let the lime
slake in it; after it is slaked, let it
settle, and pour it off above.]
"So.. what is Salt petre? Typically its Potassium nitrate. So... how the sdhdsf are we going to get gunpowder... from calcium rich limestone and \"philosophical dew\"? Please explain...?

CLEARLY... Hollandus is talking absolute fsdafpsduf here, at least in the literal sense.

Now lets have a look at what another notorious and well loved traitor has said:"

Schmuldvich - [The Hand is a cabalistic representation of our Matter, Elixirmixer.

The different fingers represent different stages of our Work/the different phases of our Matter during its maturation into the Philosopher's Stone.]

"Now from this point of view, things do start to make a little more sense.

Hollandus was not handing out recipes. He was an initiate, writing to the initiated. And NOT to anyone else. He used the general platform of other alchemists, in which he used another process (in this case, pyro-distillation) as an allegorical metaphore to assist in explaining something that otherwise was FORBIDDEN to be written down.

So, if you want to understand Hollandus, and if you want the TRUE vegetable stone; you must consiquently accept and imbibe these principals; otherwise all is in error and fraud. You cant just skip the first few chapters of what is being said, just because its inconvenient. No Salts of the Hand means NO radical transmutations of anything including the human soul.

Sorry; the baldness isnt going anywhere Im afraid (but if it does let me know, i want hair too) HAHA!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elixirmixer has opened his eyes to something of importance which some of us wish to ignore, viz. that one must learn how to correctly read the alchemic literature. It is not to be read at ALL times in a literal sense. When one accepts this and actually follows these "recipes", one begins to clearly see that Elixirmixer is correct . These "recipes" are guides.
This method is used here in Sanguis Naturae. To me it is obvious. Exciting times loom for those who are gradually coming to learn of alchemy proper.
Soon, all of the groups and their fallacious dogma will be piled up and destined for the trash heap. Then, alchemy will begin to reassert its position in the world as its only protector, guarding human beings from itself by correcting the vainglorious ideas of "enlightened" men of science and industry.

;);):cool: