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Aleilius
01-02-2009, 01:52 AM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm).

Taken from this site: [link broken]


Shown in the photo to left is Gustav Meyrink (1868 - 1932). He was a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and believed the "prime matter" to be struvite (magnesium ammonium phosphate) which is made by adding magnesium chloride to urine. It precipitates to the bottom as a white salt. Why did he believe this was the prima materia? Most likely because he witnessed it's manufacture and use in the Order and the name of the Order itself is a metaphor for morning urine.

It's interesting to note that during the time he was a member (1889) he also opened a new bank. Perhaps to funnel money from his work with transmutation? It was proven that he was a member of this Order because it's founder, William Wynn Westcott, sent him a letter which remained in his archives. It's also interesting that Westcott is the creator of the Hermitic Order of the Golden Dawn, and yet even he left the Order and made another one, the Stella Matutina. He was also a member of a Rosicrucian society.

The Amoun Temple of the Stella Matutina in London closed its doors in 1919. This was due to two members becoming schizophrenic, one of whom, a clergyman, was later to die in the mental hospital. (Mr. Lenz perhaps?)

This is interesting because I have always thought that the order's name indicated an alchemical secret! Let's not forget that Crowley was involved in this particular order, and it seems as though he knew of the philosopher's stone (he mentions it in a few texts, clearly in some, and obscured in others). Just thought I would share this with others.
Thanks for that... I actually never made that kind of connection before!

But if Golden Shower is urine, then Golden Dawn sure can be the same...

Although to be the devils advocate... according to history the alchemist found interest in urine only because the color of it were thought to come from gold. But gold can be found in a lot of liquids, even semen (I think). And this obsession led to the discovery of phosphorus etc...

Perhaps it is just a methaphor for something that is impure and transmuting it into something pure?

Comments?

Resolved to search and travel every Land
The Globe had ever shown, At length I came
To golden Ganges in ye Land of fame,
And Appeleia is ye Citys name. - from Parable of the Fountain (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/trevisanus_fountain.html) by Bernard Trevisan"Bernard Trevisan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Trevisan) worked with minerals and natural salts using distillation and crystallization methods... when these failed he turned to vegetable and animal material, finally using human blood and urine." - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Trevisan)

Although to be the devils advocate... according to history the alchemist found interest in urine only because the color of it were thought to come from gold.
That's what I heard before, but from what I know there are various other alternative theories related to urine and such. This is an ANCIENT art, going back thousands of years, and keep in mind that those in power tend to rewrite history to suit their agenda. So no doubt there are cover stories and conspiracies afoot, and even though the phosphorus story is interesting, it was also a cover story for the real secret.


But gold can be found in a lot of liquids, even semen (I think).
M-state transition metals can be found in many materials, and are perhaps the most abundant form of these elements!


"Bernard Trevisan worked with minerals and natural salts using distillation and crystallization methods... when these failed he turned to vegetable and animal material, finally using human blood and urine." - source
Human blood is another interesting source for these m-state materials. Apparently these materials help in the communication between cells and the nervous system, but I don't know the mechanism. The brain contains many of these m-state materials, and m-state iridium and rhodium can be found up to 5% dry weight in brain matter. Blood is an interesting source for these materials, I will say that much.

EDIT: I also wanted to add this, perhaps the reason why urine works to produce the philosophers stone is because of the minute cellular matter that tends to end up in urine after it as been passed through the body. The cells would break down and release their m-state components, these would then rise to the top of the urine and produce the iridescent film/oil that is the starting point of the work. I would like to try an experiment by adding blood to urine, and seeing if it produces more of this iridescent film/oil or if it produces it quicker than using urine by itself.

Salazius
01-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Aleilius,


I would like to try an experiment by adding blood to urine, and seeing if it produces more of this iridescent film/oil or if it produces it quicker than using urine by itself.

Did you try that ? Urine comes from blood, maybe are they linked, but they are quite different no ?

Salazius

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 11:08 AM
Did you try that ? Urine comes from blood, maybe are they linked, but they are quite different no ?
I have not tried that yet. The way to produce more iridescent film is by adding alkali salts. This is a sure fire method! *** and his group made this discovery.

You're right, they are somewhat different. When blood is left out in a container it separates into two layers: a red bottom layer, and a clear water like top layer. The top clear layer is most like urine, and I believe that's where urine comes from. It's the watery portion of blood. A stone from blood is made from the bottom red layer.

Regarding the opposite nature of blood and urine. Isn't that part of the alchemical concept? The union of two opposing natures, and the battle that proceeds thereafter?

Salazius
01-18-2009, 12:08 PM
Well ... Blood Stone IS Dangerous, at the utmost point, even if you do it successfully, you have to control your awakening and not falling into total chaos.

Urine Stone can be also deadly operative. Some committed suicide.

Mixing the two, without mastering them separately would be crazy.

Adding alkali salts, interesting that's right, but they have to be at the base, from urine, fix and volatile.

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 12:12 PM
Hi Salazius, can you go into detail on why the blood or urine stone is dangerous? What causes them to be dangerous? I've never heard these things before!


Adding alkali salts, interesting that's right, but they have to be at the base, from urine, fix and volatile.
I agree with you that the alkali salt should be obtained from the matter itself, but actually any alkali salt will cause urine to produce the iridescent crystalline layer. Heck, add a little sodium carbonate to the matter, and in a day or so it will produce the iridescent layer.

Salazius
01-18-2009, 12:34 PM
can you go into detail on why the blood or urine stone is dangerous? What causes them to be dangerous? I've never heard these things before!

Well, ego can be seen as the egregorious mass of cells that compose your body in a sens, so, imagine that you take a little of each one of them and by alchemy you make them die and live again...That's for Urine.

Now, imagine you take the life force, blood, of your ego/mass cells/body, and make die your life force, and make live it again. So, your cells dies and are impregnate by the process happening in the blood.

In both cases you make all "your body", indirectly, die in the process. As they are very close to you, very astralised, you are in direct contact with the alchemical Opus.

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Thank you for explaining it to me Salazius. I believe you're spot on with your assessment. I've never looked at it that way, but it really does make sense!

There was an experiment done years ago that displayed this same principle. I'll try to find a source for it, but basically cells display spooky action at a distance. Cells were extracted from a body and watched over carefully. These cells still maintained a connection to their host despite no physical connection whatsoever. When something happened to the host the cells would respond as if they were STILL in the host.

Salazius
01-18-2009, 02:17 PM
You're welcome. And there is even more to say, but I let you meditate.

Yes that's the same principle in physics, with two atoms, they were very close, but separeted the modification on the on, modifies at distance the other. This is the interconnection law, or interdependance. Very used in mumies magic, sorcery or theurgy and also in radiesthesy etc.
But, if we have that on the physical plane, it' s because it happens in the astra-mental levels before.

kerkring
01-18-2009, 03:41 PM
Well ... Blood Stone IS Dangerous, at the utmost point, even if you do it successfully, you have to control your awakening and not falling into total chaos.

Urine Stone can be also deadly operative. Some committed suicide.

Mixing the two, without mastering them separately would be crazy.

Adding alkali salts, interesting that's right, but they have to be at the base, from urine, fix and volatile.

What's a safe path to follow then?

Should you start with simple vegetable elixirs and a plant stone and ingest those for a time first? Or have a strong meditation practice for several years?

Thanks,

Salazius
01-18-2009, 04:20 PM
Acetate Path is maybe safer...Antimony also, Cinnabar, Natural way...

Blood Path need to be also a magician for some reasons. A good preparation yes, a good epuration or a lot of experience before.

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 04:40 PM
Should you start with simple vegetable elixirs and a plant stone and ingest those for a time first? Or have a strong meditation practice for several years?
Hi kerkring, it has been said by many modern day alchemists that all students of alchemy should start with the vegetable kingdom first. It is through this realm that we gain our first real taste of alchemy and what it truly entails. Good experiments include tinctures, elixirs, and plant stones.

The method set forth by Barbault is great. It's mainly a vegetable realm work, but the final processes include adding gold calx (which makes Barbault's method a hybrid path).

Meditation should go along with all alchemy work. A good number of alchemists begin as students of the occult, and throughout many years of research they stumble onto the truth of alchemy. These students of the occult often have much experience in regards to meditation, the inner workings of the macrocosm/microcosm, and also astral/etheric/spiritual energy manipulation. Many of these occultists also practice magick. In turn, when they finally stumble onto alchemy, they often progress fairly quickly.


Blood Path need to be also a magician for some reasons.
You make an interesting point here. Blood is often utilized by magickians in high ceremonial magick. The reason they use it is because it embodies a highly concentrated form of astral/spirital energy. It also attracts ambient astral/spiritual energy. They also recognize that blood has the ability to draw "bad" spiritual entities (they are attracted to the energy). I suppose that's another reason why a stone made from blood might prove to be dangerous.

Salazius
01-18-2009, 07:11 PM
They also recognize that blood has the ability to draw "bad" spiritual entities (they are attracted to the energy). I suppose that's another reason why a stone made from blood might prove to be dangerous.

Yes, that's one BIG reason, that is in fact, quite the same for urine. Be careful.

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 07:43 PM
Yes, that's one BIG reason, that is in fact, quite the same for urine. Be careful.
I think it's much more pronounced with blood than urine. Urine is a "waste" product of sorts, and while it still may contain a decent amount of life energy it will never be as strong or as concentrated as fresh blood.

Personally, I've never encountered any negative problems when working with urine, but as they say, your mileage may vary. ;)

kerkring
01-18-2009, 07:46 PM
Yes, that's one BIG reason, that is in fact, quite the same for urine. Be careful.

Actually, I recently started a second series of experiments with the Golden Water and two days after the start I had this experience:

I had gone to bed and thought that I was still awake. Then suddenly I felt the end of the bed where my feet were lying being pushed upwards and then it felt like my body was being crushed below the chest for a short time. After it had stopped, the sequence of end of the bed being pushed upwards followed by pressure on the body was repeated one more time with stronger pressure this time. Then I just lay there and must have drifted off to sleep.
The next day I looked on the internet and there it said that it was something that happened during sleep. It's possible that it was a dream but I don't think so...

And recently when I was under some stress I had the beginnings of a panic attack which abruptly disappeared when I visualized a beam of white light descending on me...

hmmm...

Aleilius
01-18-2009, 08:34 PM
The experience you describe is what some call the "old hag" syndrome. This normally happens when you're right on the cusp of falling asleep. Your body is asleep, but your mind is still somewhat active. It's what scientists call "sleep paralysis."

It also sounds like you were on the brink of "astral projection." You mentioned it felt like the bottom of the bed was being pushed upwards, did it feel like your feet were being pushed upwards? This is the first stages of the astral body separating from the physical body. Your legs go first, along with your arms next, and then your whole body (limbs are the first to detach). I've experienced this on NUMEROUS occasions. Actually, astral projection was a specialty of mine at one point. It's really quite amazing.

This sort of phenomena isn't all too uncommon. I wouldn't exactly attribute it to your work with GW, but this is a matter of opinion.

Most of the time the "old hag" phenomena will abruptly end if you can think of a God name while its happening.

-----

Years ago, before I started researching the occult/alchemy, I had an encounter with a very very wicked entity (demon more like) while I was asleep. It wasn't a dream, it was more of an astral projection. The demon took on the form of a black shadow with a red radiating center. I could FEEL the malevolence and dread - it was beyond over powering. I think it was the wickedest energy I've ever encountered.

These thing do exist, so please be careful, but remember that you ALWAYS have the upper hand. When you begin to progress the spiritual ladder, the light radiating from your astral body is increased with each progression, and this allows them to see you. Essentially you become a target, and these things become attracted to you.

kerkring
01-19-2009, 06:45 AM
It also sounds like you were on the brink of "astral projection." You mentioned it felt like the bottom of the bed was being pushed upwards, did it feel like your feet were being pushed upwards?

Yes indeed. Thanks a lot.

Salazius
01-19-2009, 09:18 AM
In the putrefaction phase, if you do not hermetically seal or close your vessels, be sure you will attract all sorts of entities, commming for lunch at night.

If your matter is out of the house, it's okay, if you sleep at two metter of it ... well, it's far better to stop the experience, or you will be vampirisated for sure.

Some experience need to let the matter in an open vessel. We have to know what will happen in the astral realm, and take our dispositions against that.

Your experience is maybe and astral projection, or the visit of a larvae.

71xt2xb3xr7
04-29-2011, 08:32 AM
This may be a bit off topic but how does the Golden Dawn differ from other magic traditions. Or is it just another magic tradition that because of it's secrecy that leaked out became nothing more than that. What I guess I am trying to ask is how is it's methods any more important than any other magic traditions or Alchemy for that fact?

3+O(
04-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Golden Dawn was an attempt to restore the lost wisdom, I think unsuccessfully. I do not care for it much myself, as there are lots of intentional or accidental 'blinds' in the GD texts, for instance sattvas is attributed to fire/sulphur and rajas to air/mercury, which makes no sense. Also, the GD elemental attributions:
East - Air, South - Fire, West - Water, North - Earth
are contrary to both nature and tradition (i.e. Agrippa). Their Tarot correspondences are also weird, PF Case's system makes more sense.

There are some interesting characters associated with GD (Hockley for instance) and Israel Regardie studied with Fr. Albertus later in life, but their writings are too confused to seem very useful to me. Better to go back to the original source texts they lifted their doctrine from in the first place, we have a much greater access to original source texts than they did. Oh, can't forget, I must give AE Waite a LOT of credit for his scholarship, but often disagree with his conclusions.

71xt2xb3xr7
04-30-2011, 12:46 AM
Golden Dawn was an attempt to restore the lost wisdom, I think unsuccessfully. I do not care for it much myself, as there are lots of intentional or accidental 'blinds' in the GD texts, for instance sattvas is attributed to fire/sulphur and rajas to air/mercury, which makes no sense. Also, the GD elemental attributions:
East - Air, South - Fire, West - Water, North - Earth
are contrary to both nature and tradition (i.e. Agrippa). Their Tarot correspondences are also weird, PF Case's system makes more sense.

There are some interesting characters associated with GD (Hockley for instance) and Israel Regardie studied with Fr. Albertus later in life, but their writings are too confused to seem very useful to me. Better to go back to the original source texts they lifted their doctrine from in the first place, we have a much greater access to original source texts than they did. Oh, can't forget, I must give AE Waite a LOT of credit for his scholarship, but often disagree with his conclusions.

I guess I agree with you, in that the Golden Dawn is not all that good of a system. I studied Israel Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" and I was slightly confused on some of the correspondences, and their rituals did nothing for me; I studied them and compared with what I normally do and it just did not click whatsoever. I felt the book was a waste of my time to read it and a waste of my $38.

Besides I rather, like you said, stick with texts that are closer to the originals intentions. Some rather useful books I found are; Real Alchemy (a primer of practical alchemy) by Robert Allen Bartlet; Dennis William Hauck's "The Complete Idiot's Guide to - Alchemy" (which I found was quite informative) and his "The Emerald Tablet: Alchemy for Personal Transformation".

Was there anything good in anyone's opinion about "The Golden Dawn" system of magic that could be of any use? Because I could not find much.

Frater IA
04-30-2011, 03:08 AM
As a member of HOGD myself, I will be the first to tell you, the taught alchemy in our methods isn't the most diverse and expansive, or useful for direct purpose of the great work through the path of alchemy. However, when one moves into adepthood, a path chooses them, if alchemy be this path they are then under the guidance of higher alchemists and at their own study of the path. At that point they are already a "skilled" alchemist per say, and have done much work outside the order to reach that point, now they continue their journey beyond direct tutilage. Can the GD system be of any use, yes, depending on your path. Regardie didn't spill the entire pool of knowledge to the public like many would think. I do love his works, though. And believe him to be a great man and a great scholar.

As for the rituals doing nothing for you. Rituals unfortunately cannot be taught or explained in books as they can under a proctor. But then again, ceremonial and ritual high magick isn't for everyone.

71xt2xb3xr7
04-30-2011, 03:27 AM
What I think is important to note is that "The Golden Dawn" in my humble opinion does not have a complete authority over what is considered "Ritual Magick" and what is not.

71xt2xb3xr7
04-30-2011, 03:30 AM
As for the rituals doing nothing for you. Rituals unfortunately cannot be taught or explained in books as they can under a proctor. But then again, ceremonial and ritual high magick isn't for everyone.

I do utilize ritual magick, it's just that the perspective that the GD follows is not quite in sync with my own, that is all. For any ritual, or any kind of magick for that matter, it must be somewhat unique to the one performing the ritual (or group of people) because if it has a personal touch it will allow the one/s performing the ritual to be more focused on the task at hand due to the subjectivity of the ritual itself (this is only a factor). Though I am not saying that magick should not have some consistent structure, or have consistencies in the symbolism, and use of correspondences and etc...

If not the use of GD by Regardie, who else would you recommend? Thank You.

True Initiate
04-30-2011, 04:39 AM
Here is a nice introduction to Alchemy in the Practicus Grade 3=8 of the Golden Dawn.

http://img242.imagevenue.com/loc510/th_136716772_1_new_122_510lo.jpg (http://img242.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=136716772_1_new_122_510lo.jpg)
http://img127.imagevenue.com/loc410/th_136819416_2_new_122_410lo.jpg (http://img127.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=136819416_2_new_122_410lo.jpg)
http://img191.imagevenue.com/loc212/th_136842421_3_new_122_212lo.jpg (http://img191.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=136842421_3_new_122_212lo.jpg)
http://img188.imagevenue.com/loc224/th_136866464_4_new_122_224lo.jpg (http://img188.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=136866464_4_new_122_224lo.jpg)
http://img190.imagevenue.com/loc40/th_413689099_5_new_122_40lo.jpg (http://img190.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=413689099_5_new_122_40lo.jpg)

True Initiate
04-30-2011, 04:51 AM
Also they mention important books Alchemy on their introductory page
http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/displaycontent.aspx?pageid=108-mathers-the-secret-chiefs
I have highlighted the most important lines in white.
http://img154.imagevenue.com/loc10/th_137530768_635572541_1_new_122_10lo.jpg (http://img154.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=137530768_635572541_1_new_122_10lo.j pg)

Does any of you Golden Dawners have access to these manuscripts mentioned above?

Frater IA
04-30-2011, 11:37 PM
@71, I agree that we do not have a complete authority on ritual magick by any means. We tend to deal only in high magick, and several different types, such as enochian, egyptian, etc. There are far more than that. In fact, its not uncommon with the work of adepts and guides to be able to create a new high magick ritual for a new purpose, of course, one must be in an agreeable pact with all entities involved prior to doing this. Anyway, other than Regardie, I can say none. My only recommendation would be, if you want to experience the order, you must in full, "experience the order". This cannot be done through books.

@True Puffer, I do not directly have access to those, but can't say that I've asked around for those specifically. Keep in mind, named manuscripts may literally be psuedonames for something else, as is much the case with many magickal orders. If they are true texts, I would seek someone within the "true" Rosicrucians. They may be willing to share some of their knowledge on the consideration of a "common ground" of knowledge gained.

zoas23
01-25-2012, 01:52 AM
Regardie didn't spill the entire pool of knowledge to the public like many would think. I do love his works, though. And believe him to be a great man and a great scholar.

This is true. I may even say that the corpus of texts that just the Zelator grade has is already by far longer and more extensive than the complete works published by Regardie with Golden Dawn texts (I am not includying here the books by Regardie in which he published texts he wrote himself, I mean the books in which he published G.D. material).

What Regardie published is valuable, but it is hardly complete... hence it is true that those published works alone don't make much sense by themselves. Though they are a good source to understand what the Golden Dawn is mostly about... but it is quite impossible to "practice" the Golden Dawn system with the published books. There's also a lot of mistakes in those books (I have no idea if they are intentional or not)

Being myself involved with several Organizations/Orders, I would say that the G.D. is among the ones I value the most. Is it complete and perfect? Certainly not... but I've never heard any sane person claiming that there is any Order or Organization that is absolutely complete and perfect.


Also, the GD elemental attributions:
East - Air, South - Fire, West - Water, North - Earth
are contrary to both nature and tradition (i.e. Agrippa).

That's why I said that the published material is just a "sample". There are four different systems of attributions used for different pourposes in the G.D. The one you are mentioning is one of them.


What I think is important to note is that "The Golden Dawn" in my humble opinion does not have a complete authority over what is considered "Ritual Magick" and what is not.

That's absolutely true.
In my own case, I am involved with the G.D. and other organizations/orders... none of them has a complete authority over absolutely anything at all... and each one of them has interesting things that the others don't have and viceversa.
If there's any Order that has a "complete authority" over any subject, I'd love to know it, as to stay as far as possible from that Order. :p (just joking).
But, honestly, the G.D. doesn't have the cultist pretention to be the "complete authority" over anything at all.
Also, one of the tips I received when I first joined the G.D. was: "read as many books as you can and investigate by your own as much as you can... and never become a person who ONLY reads books about the Occult"... which is an excellent advice that any order should give.

Also, if you've been reading Regardie, then you may have seen that he published some of the Flying Rolls of the Isis-Urantia.... which are nothing but investigations by individual members that were found worthy of interest and were added to the curriculum... no Order that considers itself to be "absolutely complete" requests its members to investigate, write and add their own ideas, discoveries and points of view to the official curriculum of studies.

Finally, the idea that the "Golden Dawn" actually means "Morning Urine"... LOL... it's funny.
The name has indeed and alchemical meaning, but it's not that one.

71xt2xb3xr7
03-19-2012, 03:28 PM
I was just curious if anyone knew of ritual magick that is of the east, and not of the western tradition.

zoas23
03-19-2012, 11:46 PM
I was just curious if anyone knew of ritual magick that is of the east, and not of the western tradition.

My father in law, whose origins were South Korean (sadly he is no longer alive) was very involved with a branch of Buddhist Shamanism that has some interesting practices that are not really usual in the western traditions.

Specially a method of healing by the means of using automatic drawings (the method involves the Shaman listening to the person who has a problem, then he performs an automatic drawing asking for a solution, then he dedicates some ceremonies to that drawing... finally he shows the drawing to the person and provides him a solution).
The drawings, I have seen many, are incredibly unique and very different from ANYTHING I had previously seen in my whole life.

I told my girflriend about this forum and she's willing to join it (and she will in the next days). She is currently more intereted in western traditions than in eastern traditions... but she was raised by a Buddhist Shaman (her father), so she knows more than just a few things. I have no idea how much she wants to talk about it, but it's always possible to ask her. I'll show her this thread once she joins.

solomon levi
04-09-2012, 01:05 AM
I was just curious if anyone knew of ritual magick that is of the east, and not of the western tradition.

Sure. Through reading anyways.
I guess it depends how specific of a meaning you have of ritual magic. But a lot
of yoga and buddhism is ritualistic and magical.
Some of my favorites are The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali, books by Gurdjieff
and Ouspensky, lots of sufi and buddhist sources, there's a nice little series of books
I liked starting with The Magus of Strovolis... that might be considered western, mediteranean.
Huna is interesting and effective - east or west?
But especially buddhist and/or tibetan yoga is very ritual.
I had a great book on the subject - I thought it was called tibetan yoga and I thought it was
by Thomas Cleary, but I'm not finding it on line - saw Buddhist Yoga, but it doesn't look
like the same book - this one I had was full of practices on seed mantras and tummo and
bardo...

MarkostheGnostic
04-09-2012, 07:39 PM
I was just curious if anyone knew of ritual magick that is of the east, and not of the western tradition.

During the Chinese invasion of Tibet in 1959, some of the Tibetan people apparently drew upon Bon magick. They created a large mandala of some sort, and I once read that even infant sacrifice was used to charge this talisman in black magick fashion. Obviously, it was ineffective against the Saturnian 'rigidifying power' of Lead bullets (i.e., rigor mortis). So, if "magick is the art of causing change to occur in conformity to one's will," as Crowley defined it, then the alchemy of gunpowder (Sulphur, Sal Nitre, Charcoal), in conjuction with Mercury fulminate, Iron and Wood (after all, this is Chinese alchemy) rifles, and Lead projectiles, surpassed the psychic assault of Bon magick (unfortunately).

Just what Bon magick rituals consist of is an interesting subject, especially since it is so mysterious I find it interesting that the ritual symbol used instead of the Dorje, as in the strictly Vajrayana schools, is the swastika. Moreover, the monks circumambulate their stupas counter-clockwise (Widdershins in the West) rather than clock-wise (Deosil). Both of these particulars evokes Left-handed associations in me, a Westerner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon

zoas23
04-09-2012, 08:03 PM
Just what Bon Po magick rituals consist of is an interesting subject, especially since it is so mysterious I find it interesting that the ritual symbol used instead of the Dorje, as in the strictly Vajrayana schools, is the swastika. Moreover, the monks circumambulate their stupas counter-clockwise (Widdershins in the West) rather than clock-wise (Deosil). Both of these particulars evokes Left-handed associations in me, a Westerner.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon

Since this thread started with the Golden Dawn...
The Swastika is and was used in the Golden Dawn a lot... and it wasn't and isn't related to any fascist or Nazi ideology (indeed, several branches of the Golden Dawn itself have been lead by people who were Jewsish, at least in an "ethincal" way), Such as Moina Bergson Mathers or Israel Regardie.

Also, a lot of Golden Dawn ceremonies involve ant-clockwise circumbalations... without having anything to do with "black magic" or anything sinister ( :P some sort of pun intended! ).

As for the "Left Hand Path" vs. the "Right Hand Path", the Zelator cremony of the Golden Dawn is published and quite easy to find on the internet... it does have a very interesting view about this issue.

Awani
04-12-2012, 01:47 AM
This thread went into a Nazi/Swastika debate worthy of its own thread: Reclaim the Swastika (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2824-Reclaim-the-Swastika)

:cool: