PDA

View Full Version : gold chloride solution from Dead sea salts



solomon levi
03-23-2009, 09:28 PM
Most good m-state paths seem to start with dissolving gold in aqua regia.
I've sought for a while how to create the same with Dead sea salts.

I take the salt and dissolve it in distilled water and add HCl and a little
H2O2 and then keep adding salts and i get a yellow-orange color which may
be gold chloride.
I tried putting a piece of charcoal in the solution and it attracted tiny gold
specks to its surface.
After the charcoal set for a while, the solution turns a light green color,
which is the color Hudson said m-state gold has in solution with HCl.

I find this very fascinating.
One obstacle that remains though is the large amount of magnesium
chloride that precipitates with the m-gold. I'll try to drop the pH and lose
most of this magnesium and see what I have left. I tried to get the red-
purple m-state and failed. Either I went too fast or the magnesium didn't
allow the color. Otherwise, the color did go from yellow to clear as I hit neutral
pH, and then I saw some redness but then lost it.
I'll try again.
Oh - the precipitate didn't disappear as I reached high basic pH as I thought it would.
Perhaps again from the magnesium.


Any comments, ideas, suggestions?

theFool
03-23-2009, 10:29 PM
Your research seems very interesting and important.

My suggestion on that is to get rid of the Mg ion (and others) before adding HCl and H2O2. I have successfully used the "method 4" from Barry Carter's website in order to do it. It consists of raising the ph up to 14 using lye. I then discard the precip, all the m-state is in the solution because it attaches to NaOH. I 've seen that heating for some hours and putting excess of NaOH helps with the yield on atlantic sea salt (haven't tried Dead sea).

Then by lowering the ph with HCl, the m-state appears. This method works well for me, giving magnetic precip. A drawback is that you consume much NaOH and HCl.
But you could also refine your m-state using whatever method you like before adding HCl, H2O2.

Hope I helped somehow.
Pretty impressive results, congrats!

Vlad
03-24-2009, 12:12 AM
Your research seems very interesting and important.

My suggestion on that is to get rid of the Mg ion (and others) before adding HCl and H2O2. I have successfully used the "method 4" from Barry Carter's website in order to do it. It consists of raising the ph up to 14 using lye. I then discard the precip, all the m-state is in the solution because it attaches to NaOH. I 've seen that heating for some hours and putting excess of NaOH helps with the yield on atlantic sea salt (haven't tried Dead sea).

I've tried Method 4 on Dead Sea salt and it didn't work. I think most of the gold attaches to the magnesium just like it attaches to the sodium.

solomon levi try extracting the goldchloride with diethyl ether from the yellow-orange or light green solution.

Then try adding acetone to the green goldchloride after you extracted it. I did this once on normal goldchloride I ether extracted (or boiled down, not sure) and got a green powder with definite m-state effects.

solomon levi
03-25-2009, 01:20 AM
Well, today I took the precipitate back down to 9 to drop most of the
Magnesium. I think I'll decant and then continue down to clear/neutral
and try to raise it back up slowly and see if I don't get the red-purple precipitate.

In regards to using up alot of HCl and NaOH, I may try using lime (calcium
carbonate) and see how that works. It's much, much cheaper than lye.
You can buy a 25 lb bag of lime for the same price as a pound of lye.

Obviously, there are many other experiments I can do on this. It'll
take some time.

I don't have di-ethyl ether. What is it? Is it easy to acquire? I don't really
order any chemicals - get all my stuff from hardware stores and clay/ceramics
stores.

Thanks for the advice. I'll continue to work with this.
If I did have a gold chloride solution, would I not be left with
metallic gold and not m-state after evaporating everything off of the
yellow-orange solution?

theFool
03-25-2009, 08:50 AM
If I did have a gold chloride solution, would I not be left with
metallic gold and not m-state after evaporating everything off of the
yellow-orange solution?

Hmm, for what reason do you believe that the m-state Au has turned into metallic Au? Because you used carbon maybe. I would propose to check for the existence of the Au chloride by the tin(II) chloride test before going to recover the product.


I don't have di-ethyl ether. What is it? Is it easy to acquire?

Di-ethyl ether (or just ether) is a volatile and flamable solvent, one of the few solvents able to dissolve gold chloride, that's why it is used for its extraction. I don't think you can find it out of a chemical supply store. Theoretically you can make some by distilling ethanol with sulfuric acid, but never tried it.

I find it of importance to check if the Au chloride is there first before getting into trouble of extracting with ether or... The tin chloride test, requires you to boil some tin in HCl in order to make a tin chloride solution. Then by dipping a swab into that solution, another one into the solution under test and bringing them together to touch, you should get a purple color if Au ion is present. It is a pretty accurate test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin(II)_chloride#Uses)

Good luck ;)

Vlad
03-25-2009, 04:20 PM
Actually you should not used diethyl ether because you used H2O2. Both react dangerously together.

solomon levi
03-25-2009, 05:25 PM
Hmm, for what reason do you believe that the m-state Au has turned into metallic Au? Because you used carbon maybe. I would propose to check for the existence of the Au chloride by the tin(II) chloride test before going to recover the product.



Well, I guess I didn't imagine there are different types of gold chloride. So if I
do have a gold chloride solution, it should react the same as gold dissolved
in aqua regia. Maybe it's just a yellow solution of m-state??

The carbon test would be a confirmation I think.
Supposedly, if you put a piece of charcoal in gold chloride solution
and heat it or put it in the rays of the sun, it will become coated
with gold. I only got a few specks 'cause I didn't heat it, but I'll try this
test again.

kerkring
03-25-2009, 06:25 PM
I have an ebook 'chemistry of precious metals' with a section on gold. Maybe it can be of use. PM me if you want it.

sleeveless
03-25-2009, 08:31 PM
I woud love to see pictures of whats happening if there are any...
:)

solomon levi
05-03-2009, 09:13 PM
Here's a pic of the dead sea salt dissolved in HCl with some H2O2.
The yellow color may indicate the presence of gold chloride. ???

http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/12/78/17/61/rick_s18.jpg

theFool
05-04-2009, 10:37 AM
The yellow color may indicate the presence of gold chloride. ???


Here is some gold chloride for color comparison purposes:

http://i63.servimg.com/u/f63/13/43/32/26/th/gcl110.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=21&u=13433226)

theFool
05-04-2009, 11:05 AM
Solomon levi, why don't you put an iron nail (or cooper wire or tin) inside your supposed gold chloride solution? It should turn golden because the gold atoms will precipitate onto the surface of the inserted metal ;)

It is a single displacement reaction between the metal and the gold chloride.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

Vlad
05-04-2009, 08:01 PM
It looks like gold chloride though.
Put some tin in HCl, and add a drop to a strip of paper, then add a drop of the yellow solution. If it colors purple it's likely goldchloride.

theFool
05-04-2009, 08:22 PM
Put some tin in HCl
How much concentrated must the HCl be? I had difficulties using dilute HCl (~13%).

Vlad
05-04-2009, 08:47 PM
I use concentrated 37% HCl

solomon levi
05-13-2009, 12:17 AM
Solomon levi, why don't you put an iron nail (or cooper wire or tin) inside your supposed gold chloride solution? It should turn golden because the gold atoms will precipitate onto the surface of the inserted metal ;)

It is a single displacement reaction between the metal and the gold chloride.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series


The iron did not turn golden.
Perhaps it's just one of the tones of the m-state.

Vlad
05-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Try extraction with toluene. Toluene should be able to extract a grease of ormus if there is any present.

Be careful though the H2O2 in your solution will react with some toluene and I don't know the products of it but I don't know it will be explosive like using diethyl ether. I Googled this briefly and it seems you'll get benzoic acid as oxidation product but don't take my word for it.

Try a drop of toluene on a drop of dillute H2O2 first or something like that.

Aleilius
05-24-2009, 11:16 PM
Solomon Levi, that picture you posted looks very convincing! Was your HCl colorless & pure? Was your Dead Sea salt also pure?

I'm trying to figure out what would cause that color. I'm really not sure. I'll give this a try tonight! I've also got some gold chloride I'll post about in a new thread.

solomon levi
05-30-2009, 09:21 PM
Solomon Levi, that picture you posted looks very convincing! Was your HCl colorless & pure? Was your Dead Sea salt also pure?

I'm trying to figure out what would cause that color. I'm really not sure. I'll give this a try tonight! I've also got some gold chloride I'll post about in a new thread.

The HCl is muriatic acid from a hardware store. It's probably not pure, but not
colored either. The Dead Sea salt is claimed to be the best brand.

http://www.saltworks.us/shop/product.asp?idProduct=3&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=dead+sea+salt&gclid=CIWj0qD85JoCFRBbagodCjVHBA

Aleilius
05-30-2009, 09:25 PM
The waters of the Dead Sea are unique, having a total salt concentration that is 10 times higher than ocean water, reaching 33 % versus 3 %. But that's not all! The composition of the dead sea salt is also unique, comprising magnesium, potassium and calcium chlorides, in addition to a high concentration of bromides.
Maybe your solution is colored because it's contaminated with bromine. For instance iodine is released when H2O2 + HCl is reacted with potassium iodide. In this situation I'd assume a small amount of elemental bromine is related to the yellow color. You can recover a few drops of elemental bromine this way.

Check this out: http://mattson.creighton.edu/BromineWater.html

Vlad
07-08-2009, 12:27 AM
I'm going to try this tomorrow or in a few hours (it's raining on and off now).

Did you use concentrated HCl or dillute? Same question for the H2O2. About how much of each, and how much distilled water and salt did you use?

solomon levi
07-08-2009, 06:37 PM
Hey Vlad.
I used hardware store muriatic acid; 30% I think.
It's been a while - let me think...
I think I added the DSS to water to saturation point.
Then maybe 1/4 cup Hcl.
Then 3% H2O2, probably less than an 1/8th of a cup.

I seem to recall playing with the amount of salt and the amount of
H2O2 until the color appeared.

It wasn't a measured thing. I was just searching.
I haven't tried to reproduce it again as I haven't used up the original.
I'll let you know if I remember anything more.

If you look at the picture, I was mixing it in a 1/2 gallon size jar.
You can see the salt is in excess.
Probably start with a cup or two of salt water and add 1/4 cup HCl to it.
Then little amounts of H2O2 until the color appears.
If the amount of added liquids dissolve the salt, add more salt. ????

Vlad
07-08-2009, 07:54 PM
I am going to try aqua regia as I plan to see if any orme goldchloride will extract into diethyl ether. I am not sure if diethyl ether is safe to use with H2O2 added. I know it's relatively safe with aqua regia.
I think it should work. The chemistry or forming a chloride is similar to that forming an iodide which I think worked.

solomon levi
07-08-2009, 08:17 PM
About my method - you probably only need as much HCl as will
bring the solution down to 1.
If you add more than that it'll just make more work to bring it up.
H2O2 is highly acidic too so that will bring the pH down.
So with just a little H2O2 added to the HCl/dss solution,
I suppose adding more salt would have brought the pH up a bit
to find the yellow color.

I know when I tried to raise it to make a purple gold ormes, the
color disappears around neutral 7, then around 8-9 I started to get a faint,
but definite red hue, but the color didn't darken to purple as I'd hoped.
But it may have been my fault... maybe I raised it too fast toward the end.

Now I wonder if that could have been the oil. Seems unlikely, but it was really
weird. It didn't seem like the precipitate was causing the color. That is, it didn't
look like red precipitate - but sort of reddish swimming in red-pink.
I'll have to try to reproduce it.

solomon