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Florius Frammel
10-11-2018, 09:53 AM
A lot of texts suggest to follow a star. Especially the morning star, or the "north" star.

Interestingly in roman mythology Lucifer, the bringer of light, also called "Demiurg" in some believe systems is a personification of the morning star.

Etymologically lucifer means "carrier of light".

Lucifer is the same like the greek Phosphorus, the bringer of the Aurora Consurgens, or the golden dawn. Venus is sometimes called lucifer too, sometimes as lucifer's spouse or lover.

Those mostly positive connotation of the pre-christian era were adopted by the early christians.
But the jews identified the morning star as a fallen angel and an enemy of israel.

From the 4th century on it became a very negative symbol (Satan) in christianity too.

If we now are told to follow the morning star in alchemy and look at these sources we could assume we're told:

1) to follow Satan
2) the bringer of light
3) the direction "north"
4) the metal copper
5) stories about venus (see picture below)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/libapps/accounts/39878/images/Botticelli-The-Birth-of-Venus-c.-1482.jpg

6) the light
7) darkness as the opposite of light
8) ..can be continued
9) all or some of the above

As most texts we have access to were written far after the 4th century, it could indeed mean that the neophytes were told to follow the devil in such a coded way (your typical alchemical instruction) the churches won't notice.

To be fair, most texts I know who speak about the following of this star stem from the Fulcanelli lineage.

Are we all devil's advocates?

JDP
10-11-2018, 02:38 PM
And here I was naively thinking that this cool heavy metal album from the 80s

https://img.discogs.com/H00A3_nC7j7DpIxrSHiHz5K_KxY=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-369904-1216755269.jpeg.jpg

was just that... but it turns out it was an alchemical treatise in disguise all along! :)

Florius Frammel
10-11-2018, 05:29 PM
I do indeed think that the connection can be important.

There is also another guy in Fulcanelli's books, who carries something important:

http://i.imgur.com/3Rnj8SE.jpg

St. Christopherus carrying Jesus, "the light of the world" (John 8,12).

Though unlike the Heavy Metal nerds who just intended to upset their parents, here is imo definately a connection that goes deeper and that can help understand Fulcanelli and the Christian mysteries a bit better. Both not irrelevant to alchemy as you know.

Each time he talks about the (north) star, or the three wise men from the orient (BTW, here is imo a connection or reason why some instructions order to align certain devices north, others east), you can flip over to the part of St. Christopherus. And as Jesus' first symbol was the fish, you can as well read the fishing parts and his comments about the Gallette des Rois. It's so obvious.

As the jewish lineage won't use christian motives there are other symbols used. Most important to those examples here imo is the hollow oak, that is also described by Fulcanelli (and originally comes from Abraham Eliazare the Jew).

Edit: Oh, and there is this other guy who lived as a "star" in the sky and was first placed very far out by Jupiter/Zeus (both origins of the name "Jesus" BTW -no kidding), and fell down to earth. On this occasion he hurt his legs and got limp from thereon. He can often be seen with his scythe and an hourglass.

Vulcanus is attributed to the cock (see B.V.), the lion, the spruce (see the trees in the pic of the "old one" in the Donum Dei) and iron.

Some say the "pherus" in Christo"pherus" is a hint to "ferrum", which means "iron" and is usually connected with mars.

To close the circle, you can look up the mythological story of the ménage à trois of vulcanus, mars and venus.

Fulcanelli further describes the star one should follow as being seven-pointed. I can imagine it's probably this one:

http://www.horusmedia.de/2004-siebenstern/siebenstern.jpg

You must see that this is way more useful than your "scared by Eddie" motive you tried to impose on my first post.

Florius Frammel
10-23-2018, 11:35 AM
I think the symbol of St. Christopher was very useful to reoccupy the place of the archetype of the "carrier", that became vacant after the "fall" of lucifer for obvious reasons.


Similar "carrier" symbol but with a slightly different meaning (imo) can be seen in this picture from dwellings:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f_Rtcer21CY/V77ew58dLsI/AAAAAAAA6zs/XOZFcKf6I2sb9UNy8wpphCxEmdq6PO2GQCEw/s1600/Dem%2Bphil%2Bb26.jpg

Compare it with this picture by Canseliet and especially note the "freight" in both cases:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=551&d=1274534465

Edit: The pronounciation of the words vaisseau and oiseaux (it's the same) and their translation (ship/glass and birds) should be considered too when looking at those pictures.

Phyllobius
10-24-2018, 04:00 PM
In french a "vaisseau" is an outdated term to describe something akin to a goblet or bowl made to contain liquids. The Graal is an archetypal vaisseau.

As a side note about Venus in east asian culture:

In particular buddhist lores it is said that Enlightenment occurs when Venus enters the mouth. It's equated with the boddhisattva Akashagarba (Kôkûzô Bosatsu in japanese).

Very interresting thread by the way.

Florius Frammel
10-24-2018, 05:16 PM
Yes, my translation "glass" wasn't very precice.

See "Le Vaisseau" by Jean-Julien Champagne:

https://elanacronopetedelasitaglez.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/alquimia22.jpg

Awani
10-24-2018, 10:56 PM
Interestingly in roman mythology Lucifer, the bringer of light, also called "Demiurg" in some believe systems is a personification of the morning star.

I'm no authority, but I don't think Lucifer and Demiurge are one and the same.

The Demiurge is the "god of matter/creation". In Gnosticism the Demiurge is "the Devil" i.e. the bad guy. Whilst Lucifer is "dawn" and "venus/love".

Garden of Eden = the Lab
The Fruit = the Stone
The Creator, GOD aka The Devil = Demiurge
The Serpent = Lucifer
Satan = does not exist unless you view it as another name for Demiurge.

:p

Chrysa Lead
10-24-2018, 11:21 PM
When you go under the sun, if something is on the way of the light (whatever the obstacle), it creates a drop shadow on something, somewhere.
Satan is the obstacle and Lucifer is the drop shadow : this is the difference of the both.

Our world is a world of shadows, when you turn your back to the sun you have your own shadow in the front of you, when you turn yourself to the sun, no shadow in the front of you anymore, "it" stays behind !
We are here to turn ourselves to the light and leave our shadows behind us ;)

Alchemy is a way to do it, gnosis too (not gnosticism which is the result of an alteration of gnosis).

Awani
10-24-2018, 11:36 PM
Satan is the obstacle and Lucifer is the drop shadow which results of it : this is the difference of the both.

Satan may be the obstacle, but in your allegory Lucifer is the lamp/sun. IMV.*

:p

*in my view

Chrysa Lead
10-24-2018, 11:50 PM
Satan may be the obstacle, but in your allegory Lucifer is the lamp/sun. IMV.*
:p
*in my view

No Awani, in my allegory the lamp is "God and the divine fields".

Kibric
10-25-2018, 12:02 AM
Is that picture on earth or...ah it's the sun ?

Florius Frammel
10-25-2018, 06:35 AM
Do you mean the painting by Champagne?

It seems a bit cut on the edges and the qualitiy is in rather low resolution but there seem to be indeed only six heavenly bodies displayed.
It could indeed be a (black) sun imo. Any ideas about the crystal structure the vaisseau sits in? Looks like ice. I don't think it refers to the platonic body (the cube), as it rather looks like rectangles.

BTW. I think there are quite some interesting similarities and differences between the last three images I posted.

Florius Frammel
10-25-2018, 07:27 AM
I'm no authority, but I don't think Lucifer and Demiurge are one and the same.


Your/my/our personal opinion is indeed important in certain aspects/ways (imo ;) ). Especially spiritually.

You can as well research historical believe systems and excluding these personal viewpoints as much as possible (problem of objectivity) and some sources say, that in some circles at certain points in time this lucifer/demiurge connection was indeed the case.

A third layer or level is the usability of these kind of symbols for practical lab work.

Therefore I can't agree when some say that spirituality has nothing to do with lab practice, because of the fact that from a certain point in time some people decided to code lab instructions in a way that can be interpreted in those both (and even more) ways. To get an idea it is imo not only necessary to study the personal meaning of the symbols alone, but as well in the historical context to eventually grasp an idea of the possible lab practice.

Another question is, if the metaphysical "load" is really necessary for lab practice. Or if it can be done or described without. Some things seem to indicate that it's not necessary (like A.E. Waite noticed in his work I have yet to read).

Coleridgean
10-25-2018, 04:46 PM
Venus is the equivalent of copper, just as Mars is the equivalent of Iron. The symbols are interchangeable. In Coleridge's Magnum Opus of Alchemy, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner (book is coming soon) (also - hey - an Iron Maiden song), the key to the work, after the albatross "perches for Vespers Nine" (think Garden of Hesperides / philosopher's garden / Garden of Eden) but ALSO Venus as Vesper opposite Lucifer. Now the following stanza comes up:

All in a hot and COPPER sky
The bloody sun at noon
Right up above the mast did stand
No bigger than the moon

Here we have copper (Venus) and the sun (bloody as the Green Lyon / copper devours it and it therefore bleeds) and the moon (foreshadowing an eclipse and Conjunction)

But then later we have No Twilight (Hesperus/Vesper) within the courts of the sun to be followed by "The horned moon with ... One bright star within the nether tip". This star is Lucifer. Perhaps not the Lucifer of Jacob Boehme or Georg Von Welling (even though Coleridge studied Boehme thoroughly)

Coleridgean
10-25-2018, 05:05 PM
Also it should be noted that Ptah, the Demiurge of the Egyptians, "moulded the sun and moon; he shaped the universe and hammered out the copper sky" (Donald A. Mackenzie, Myths of Babylonia and Assyria - With Historical Narrative & Comparative Notes)

Kibric
10-25-2018, 06:13 PM
Do you mean the painting by Champagne?

It seems a bit cut on the edges and the qualitiy is in rather low resolution but there seem to be indeed only six heavenly bodies displayed.
It could indeed be a (black) sun imo. Any ideas about the crystal structure the vaisseau sits in? Looks like ice. I don't think it refers to the platonic body (the cube), as it rather looks like rectangles.

Yes.
The surface of the sphere has different depths of shading, it looks to me like the surface is covered in crystal hidden in shadow.
The allusion being to a liquid crystal of some sort which in the vessel. If it's a planet, Venus ? what liquid crystal is on its surface that's so important ?.
The rings around the woman look like a representation of an EM field. I think the cosmic nature of the picture is not metaphorical.
My gut says the whole picture is alluding to a liquid crystal found on the surface of a planet.

Florius Frammel
10-25-2018, 07:37 PM
In those times they did not know what's on another planet. Even today it's difficult to look through the very dense clouds of venus. So I'm pretty sure it's almost all metaphorical.

The skull-like substance inside the vaisseau can be of further interest I think.
Quite some alchemists, old and new, claim that if one uses common fire or vulgar corrosives the matter is killed/dead. Some even say it is dead from the moment you take it out of the earth (the womb). Some interpret this in a way that these manipulations must be avoided. Alchemy deals with "living substances" after all.

But here one gets the impression, that this is exactly what is wanted and needed at this stage of this alchemical process. This stage it seems was known by Canseliet and Champagne too.

Compare the ingredient of the three vaisseaus. I find it pretty interesting and revealing, considering certain methods that are often discussed when talking about the Fulcanelli lineage.

Coleridgean
10-25-2018, 11:50 PM
The Hollow Oak is defined by Dom Pernety as follows:

Chêne creux. Fourneau des Sages. La Fable parle d'un chêne creux contre lequel Cadmus perça le dragon qui avait dévoré ses compagnons. La lance qu'employa Cadmus est le feu, le serpent signifie le mercure. Le chêne creux étant le fourneau secret des Sages, on voit pourquoi les Anciens l'avaient consacré à Rhéa, femme de Saturne.

Pernety has the many different Vessels (Vaisseau and Vase), one of which as follows:

VAISSEAU D'HERMES. C'est la terre des Philosophes, qui renferme et cache leur feu. Marie, la Prophétesse, dit dans son Dialogue avec Aros que le vaisseau d'Hermès n'est autre que la mesure du feu Philosophique.

If you follow each tip of the seven-pointed star of Azoth in sequence (ie draw it out and see which tip your pen hits next) you advance on each day of the week. You start with Gold (Sun day), then Luna (Lundi or Moonday Monday), then Iron (Marsday Mardi Tuesday), then Mercury (Mercury Day Mercredi Wednesday), then Tin (Jupiter Day Jeudi Thursday Thor's day) then Copper (Venus Day Vendredi Friday Frida's Day) then Lead (Saturn Day Saturday) then back around once again to Gold (Sun day). This completes the seven points of Azoth. In the upper left corner you have the sun (representing sulphur in this case), in the upper right the moon (representing mercury of the philosophers but not vulgar mercury) and finally you have Plato's cube below which the Rosicrucians knew as Plato's Length X Breadth = Depth which you will see in their images of two branches held out by a man standing on the sun and woman standing on the moon and then the cross-product or poynting vector (Jacob Boehme's Cross-Birth) which is the equivalent of the two invisible forces (sulfur and mercury) coming together to yield that which is visible (E X H = see the Poynting Vector in Maxwell's Equations)). When the E field CROSSES the H field the intersection is the point of the electromagnetic wave which at high enough frequency is visible light. The LIGHT is born on the CROSS. SALT then, being the product of sulfur and mercury, is the analogy to light. It is equally a cubic form.

Coleridgean
10-26-2018, 12:05 AM
"He can often be seen with his scythe and an hourglass."

Cronus / Saturn represents time, and also rebirth. The scythe is for the harvest. Whereas Venus represents Love and Mars represents Conflict. "The Mythe of Mars and Venus is a physiosopheme and the Journey of Jove to the blameless Ethiopians and the circling River Oceanos, are mixt Symbols, (or Symbols grounded on allegory, & picture-words.)" - Coleridge

By which COleridge means that Vulcan's Net (the purple alloy of metallic antimony and copper) was coded as mythology (physiosopheme) so that adepts might benefit from thsi wisdom. Venus is copper, Mars is Iron. Vulcan's Net is descriptive of the physical appearance of the resulting alloy from combining them in such a fashion as is allegorically suggested by the mythology, knowledge which theoretically dates back all the way to Tubal-Cain or other ancient adepts.

Schmuldvich
10-26-2018, 12:37 AM
Gold (Sun day), then Luna (Lundi or Moonday Monday), then Iron (Marsday Mardi Tuesday), then Mercury (Mercury Day Mercredi Wednesday), then Tin (Jupiter Day Jeudi Thursday Thor's day) then Copper (Venus Day Vendredi Friday Frida's Day) then Lead (Saturn Day Saturday) then back around once again to Gold (Sun day).

Word studies are always fun. Thanks for sharing this, Coleridgean!

Florius Frammel
10-26-2018, 04:05 AM
Compare the ingredient of the three vaisseaus. I find it pretty interesting and revealing, considering certain methods that are often discussed when talking about the Fulcanelli lineage.

To get a little more practical, this recent post by Hellin might have something to do with our topic here.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5834-Vicot-on-the-Work-and-the-First-Menstrual-(Solvent)

Florius Frammel
10-26-2018, 04:16 AM
Thanks Coleridgean!
So you and Dom Pernety seem to back me up about what I suspected about the hollow oak.

Note that the ship masts on those two pictures we are talking about, can be interpreted as (oak) trees as well.

It may actually be that when discussing the different symbols, Fulcanelli is talking about one and the same process though. And this topic we are talking about seems to be dealt with the most. For example he usually writes much less when it comes to the stage of going through the colors.

zoas23
10-26-2018, 10:54 PM
A lot of texts suggest to follow a star. Especially the morning star, or the "north" star.

Interestingly in roman mythology Lucifer, the bringer of light, also called "Demiurg" in some believe systems is a personification of the morning star.

Etymologically lucifer means "carrier of light".

Lucifer is the same like the greek Phosphorus, the bringer of the Aurora Consurgens, or the golden dawn. Venus is sometimes called lucifer too, sometimes as lucifer's spouse or lover.

Those mostly positive connotation of the pre-christian era were adopted by the early christians.
But the jews identified the morning star as a fallen angel and an enemy of israel.

Maybe you are getting a bit mixed up with a lot of things?

-The Morning Star (Venus) and the North Star (Polaris) are two different "objects" in the Heaven... whilst the "North Star" can be used to follow a direction (i.e, the north), Venus has not really been used that way (nor any of the planets actually).

-It is somehow a mistake to begin with Latin ("Lucifer") as to understand the myth... even if "lucifer" means carrier of light (not even etymologically, in Latin that's the literal meaning)...

-The Roman religion, which was of course extremely influenced by the Greek religion was incredibly weird (weird as in "a very strange exception"). Most Religions that adopt a planetary way will often create a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses which is often ruled by the Sun and sometimes the Sun and the Moon... but in those two cases, it is Jupiter, which is VERY strange, a weird exception. However, several of the Greek Myths were certainly Stellar... Newton has a marvelous essay about it: http://www.argonauts-book.com/isaac-newton.html

-"Lucifer" doesn't really exist in the Jewish religion... even less as an "evil figure" or "fallen angel". There is an extremely WEIRD translation of a parable that is in isaiah 14....
The Jewish religion was, of course, very influenced by the Canaanite religion, which was by far more Stellar than Planetary... and Venus was considered a somehow evil God, but not exactly "evil"... the ruler of the underworld. The "good" Gods were Stellar and Venus was perceived as the "brightest star" that wanted to go to the North with the Gods, but could not do it... so even if it managed to shine a lot (sometimes, because it has cycles just like the Moon), it didn't manage to do it and it was by far less constant than the most "powerful" Gods that had a constant shine (of course, it is a planet, not a Star).
SOME parts of this myth managed to get into a Parable in the book of Isaiah... but it is not really a depiction of Venus as a "fallen angel" at all, but truly a comparison.
They certainly didn't like the king of Babylon, so there is a comparison there... somehow mocking the King.
The literal translation of Isaiah 14:12 would be "Shiny-one, son of the morning" (HYLL BN SHThR / HaLeL BeN ShaHaR), which is an obvious reference to Venus... But the whole parable is unrelated to "fallen angels", but mostly similar to a "The King of Babylon thought that he was very powerful and conquered many nations in a very violent way and thought that he was like a God, but in the long run he was just like Venus, which shines a lot, but his shine vanished, just like the shine of Venus vanishes".
So it's not really a "character" in the Old Testament (Satan is a "character" for sure, but not "HYLL" or "Halel" is certainly not one). There is also some "controversy" about the meaning of "Halel", which is literally the noun for the verb "shine" ("Shiny-One" would be a decent translation, "carrier of the light" is not). It is unknown if "Halel" was a name for Venus, or is it becomes "Venus" ONLY when it is used in a phrase that denotes it (i.e, "Shiny-one, son of the morning").

-I don't think the alchemists or anyone was confused between "Venus" and the "North Star"... they are two absolutely different things. Whilst some Christian sources understood that "Venus" was "Lucifer" and "evil"... no Christian sources identified the "North Star" with anything "evil".

Then again... your thread made me get curious about something:
Which one is the first source that clearly identifies the Planets with Metals? (as in Venus = Copper, Sun = Gold, etc)

Other than that, it is also interesting to see how a lot of alchemical texts somehow discard this correlation between planets and metals and return to a more "mythical Greek" understanding and relate the planets to processes or phases, but not really Metals (i.e, in several texts Bacstrom identifies Venus with the Albedo phase, but he doesn't suggest "copper" at all... but that's just an example among many).

Florius Frammel
10-27-2018, 02:00 AM
Hi zoas,

both the morning star (most often venus) and the north star (polaris) used to be important heavenly bodies in alchemy. I did not say they are one and the same, but seen as possible candidates to follow. Note that there are two stars in Canseliet's pic as well.

The following of the morning star may not have been practical for sailors, but it was an important symbol for the alchemists anyway, indicating an important step in the great work and therefore a sign worth to follow.
It makes sense to connect it with the albedo imo, as it is an important sign after the blackness of the night.

There are even more possible candidates like the star of bethlehem, of vitriol I posted previously too, or for some "followers" of the antimony path it's star regulus and quite some others more.

Thanks for helping to clarify this.

Why should it be inappropriate to begin with latin / roman mythology? I just gave a suggestion from where this "bringer of light", "lucifer" figure may have come from in it's relation to alchemy. It was definately there and connected with the morning star. I can't see how it helps to show that in other times this connection hasn't been made. Of course it hasn't. It seemed to originate from the roman myths.

BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well). Therefore it is not that strange to me that the greeks (and the romans) followed Zeus/Jupiter and the christians "Jesus", whose name is a derivation from Zeus/Jupiter. This connection I already mentioned in a previous post too.

Also I'm no expert in jewish mythology. A connection of lucifer/morning star/fallen angel(s) I read here for example:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10177-lucifer

I got that "enemy of israel" connotation from another (german) source. The origin of this interpretation is Jesaja/Isaia 14,12. The same you mentioned in your post.

Coleridgean
10-27-2018, 05:42 AM
BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well).

Not quite. Before the Greeks knew that Venus as Morning Star and Venus as Evening Star were one and the same, they assigned them two different names - Hesperus (Latin Vesper) for the evening star Venus and Eosphoros (Latin Lucifer) for the Morning Star Venus. Venus is unique among the planets as it takes precisely 8 earth years to make exactly 5 oppositions (roughly between Earth and the sun) with Earth and thus forms a pentagram in space if you trace it out. It spends exactly half its time as THE morning star and half its time as THE evening star and is only one or the other but never both. Jupiter is the second brightest planet in the night sky and though it has been called morning star it should not be mistaken with Eosphoros, Lucifer, the Light-Bringer

Coleridgean
10-27-2018, 06:08 AM
Your link here http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10177-lucifer is interesting because it conflates Lucifer with Semyaza/ Azazel of the Book of Enoch (3 copies of which were found by explorer James Bruce in Ethiopia in 1773 but extant fragments called the Book of the Watchers was a MAJOR motif of alchemy and Hermeticism in the preceding centuries) In fact, the Watchers of the Book of Enoch - the 200 fallen angels as it goes - were widely accepted to have given the knowledge of alchemy to humanity. Hermann Boerhave makes that claim in the mid 18th century. Georg Von Welling devotes an entire chapter to the "Sons of God" of Genesis 6 in his Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum.

My personal opinion is that the incredibly rare Venus Transit of 1769, which literally gave birth to Lucifer as the symbol (Venus passed over the disk of the sun as Vesper and then out the other side as Lucifer) and corresponded within weeks of the birth of Napoleon (who raided Egypt for the lost secrets) was the birth of the Enlightenment (the Illumination). This Transit was special because it was accompanied by a total eclipse of the sun and fulfilled several alchemical prophecies encoded in Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum. The symbolism is quite strong because it reflects the tragedy of Prometheus, who was dark, then stole the fire from the sun, and now is a light in the sky.

Florius Frammel
10-27-2018, 06:11 AM
Not quite. Before the Greeks knew that Venus as Morning Star and Venus as Evening Star were one and the same, they assigned them two different names - Hesperus (Latin Vesper) for the evening star Venus and Eosphoros (Latin Lucifer) for the Morning Star Venus. Venus is unique among the planets as it takes precisely 8 earth years to make exactly 5 oppositions (roughly between Earth and the sun) with Earth and thus forms a pentagram in space if you trace it out. It spends exactly half its time as THE morning star and half its time as THE evening star and is only one or the other but never both. Jupiter is the second brightest planet in the night sky and though it has been called morning star it should not be mistaken with Eosphoros, Lucifer, the Light-Bringer

Again, there must be different viewpoints. A quick google search showed a lot of jupiter - lucifer references. The following link may not suit as a "classical" source, but it's enough to show you what I mean, I guess:

https://gnosticwarrior.com/morning-star.html/amp

It's imo a pretty good example of what I think Fulcanelli was doing. Describing one and the same thing with quite a lot of different symbols.

For yet another example of what I am talking about see the Jupiter - Osiris connection mentioned by that source as well.
There you can go to Fulcanelli's black madonna (Isis, Osiris' spouse, see also oedipus and Freud) carrying baby Jesus. Another symbological connection.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3405/1744/1600/803292/img198.jpg

zoas23
10-27-2018, 07:39 AM
both the morning star (most often venus) and the north star (polaris) used to be important heavenly bodies in alchemy. I did not say they are one and the same, but seen as possible candidates to follow. Note that there are two stars in Canseliet's pic as well.

O.K... The first sentence of your first post was a bit confusing, so it was a clarification, but you already knew and it was simply a sentence that was somehow confusing.
But, yes, it is important to understand that Venus and Polaris are quite unrelated... even in a mythological way.


The following of the morning star may not have been practical for sailors, but it was an important symbol for the alchemists anyway, indicating an important step in the great work and therefore a sign worth to follow.

I certainly agree with you there.
Anyway, this is something that you know, but as a clarification: the expressions used in alchemy change a lot from author to author... so following an expression in many authors can often be misleading. So the context matters a lot... because nobody is "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the use of a term (and quite often the point is to find out what X author means when he uses a term... which another author can be using in an absolutely different way).


It makes sense to connect it with the albedo imo, as it is an important sign after the blackness of the night.

All the texts that I remember that do such thing were written after the XV century, which makes a lot of sense because of something that is very related to something that you included in your first post... Botticelli's Birth of Venus.
Marsilio Ficino and Pico della Mirandola (and others) began to merge the Greek-Roman myths with the Christian myths and somehow invented a correspondence of symbols.
Venus (the Goddess) became quite similar to the Virgin Mary... and this correspondence created something quite weird, which is merging something very "erotic" with something that has to be "virgin"... the Venusian paintings of the Pagan-Christian phase of Botticelli are a perfect example. Venus in the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz is another perfect example (the discussion about Andrade claiming that it was simply a joke or not doesn't matter)... but it is a very curious amalgam. I have no doubts that, among other things, Botticelli was painting an allegory of the immaculate conception (i.e, the birth of Mary without the original sin).


Why should it be inappropriate to begin with latin / roman mythology? I just gave a suggestion from where this "bringer of light", "lucifer" figure may have come from in it's relation to alchemy. It was definately there and connected with the morning star. I can't see how it helps to show that in other times this connection hasn't been made. Of course it hasn't. It seemed to originate from the roman myths.

Hmmmm... It's very subjective, Florius... I think it is a mistake, but I get your point. We are both right probably.
No big news for you... Both the Roman myths and the "Latin Christianism" are mostly translations of previous sources... So it makes sense to me to visit those other sources.


BTW, for two month each year, Jupiter is the brightest "star" in the morning sky (and can therefore be connected to "lucifer" as well). Therefore it is not that strange to me that the greeks (and the romans) followed Zeus/Jupiter and the christians "Jesus", whose name is a derivation from Zeus/Jupiter. This connection I already mentioned in a previous post too.

I don't really see "Jesus" or "iesus" as derivations from Zeus, I only see a transliteration.
Though I (and probably everyone) would agree with you if you have said "God" (Deus) as a derivation from "Zeus". Anyway, it's not that it really matters.
The case of the Greek and Roman Religion is always incredibly weird for me... even if your explanation makes sense, it is still the ONLY "planetary" Religion I can remember that makes Jupiter become the "boss"... the Sun and the Moon are quite typical, but Jupiter... I can't think of any other Religion that worked that way.


Also I'm no expert in jewish mythology. A connection of lucifer/morning star/fallen angel(s) I read here for example:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10177-lucifer

I like to understand the old Religions, there is always something to learn by understanding the logic they had (or still have in some cases).
The idea of Lucifer comes from Latin sources (specially the Vulgate and previous Latin translations)... but there isn't a "Lucifer" in the Jewish religion, nor I see anything similar. All I see is a comparison between a King that wanted to be powerful, but in the long term he "failed" and a planet that shines a lot, but can't be as amazing as a Star.
As to use another parable, all I see is a text that tries to insult someone in the same way that we could insult a musician by writing a review that says: "He believes that he sounds like Mozart, but he sounds like Liberace!"... and several centuries later this review is found by another person and this other person understand that "Liberace" was maybe an abstract concept that represented something incredibly metaphysical in the XX and XXI century.
Of course, that's my interpretation and it can be discussed.


I got that "enemy of israel" connotation from another (german) source. The origin of this interpretation is Jesaja/Isaia 14,12. The same you mentioned in your post.

Well, yes... But there's no need to be an expert in anything.
Isaiah 14:3-27 is truly a very simple rant against a deceased king of Babylon and it is mostly political and filled with insults... and the main message is mostly (in a very coloquial way) "The king of Babylon was evil and he conquered many nations and he thought that he was very powerful, but now he is dead and he was a powerless idiot... and there are other kings who were very cool, but the one from Babylon was truly a douchebag"... and in the middle of that rant there are many comparisons, ONE of them is comparing him to Venus as something that wants to be as amazing as a Star, but is definitely not "so amazing" (because it shines a lot, but then it doesn't shine anymore... it has cycles).
So the (deceased) king of Babylon is certainly identified as an "enemy of Israel"... but I do not really see there that "Venus" is identified as an enemy too (I only see a comparison or metaphor that involves some mockery... but quite similar to what I said about making a comparison between X classical musician and Liberace as a way to mock the musician).

Anyway... there's not much speculation here. Just read Isaiah 14:3-27 in any English translation and replace the word "Lucifer" for "shiny-one" or "venus" and you will probably agree with what I am saying, because it is quite obvious in the text.

_________________________

As for the "alchemical meaning", which is the main subject of the thread... I truly think that it makes a lot of sense to see what different authors say about "the star" and which "star" they are talking about (or if it is simply an unidentified "star")... because sometimes the juxtaposition of texts doesn't really show many layers of a "hidden meaning", but absolutely different meanings (and sometimes not!).

Florius Frammel
10-27-2018, 08:35 AM
For a start I'd like to stick with Fulcanelli. He is collecting symbols from older books anyway.

But thanks Zoas!
I think I know what star (among some others) he wants us to follow. The thread title "morning star" is interchangeable with St. Christopherus, lucifer, font, sea shell, Isis, Mary, Venus, crucifix/crucible, cathedral, dauphin/dolphin, vaisseau, ship,..it's the "carrier principle" imo.

As a practical start one could look up what material sea shells and (some) cathedrals are made of.

Of course that doesn't mean everything on this list is right, or that the symbols don't have other meanings (intended by Fulcanelli) as well.

Coleridgean
10-27-2018, 04:49 PM
The crucible is symbolic itself as a chamber in which to Cross two substances (like the two right-angled lines of a cross) - the philosophical mercury and the philosophical sulfur - in order to achieve the Great Work.

Mary can have meaning as a kind of chamber in the Balneo Maria (Bain Marie or bath)

Dom Pernety has this about seashells (translated to English by Martin Rulandus):
NAPORAN A Seashell whence the colour Purple is obtained. The Adepts have occasionally applied this name to their Sulphur because it possesses this colour

And of course it is Venus in Rosenkreutz that Consummates the union of Bridegroom and bride / King and Queen / Philosophical Sulphur and Philosophical Mercury. The riddle was solved about the copper engraving on the door to her chamber.

So yes Venus IS the vessel, just as all of these references are to a type of vessel, which is ultimately representative of the egg, hermetically sealed, in which the work takes place bringing together the male and female (sulphuric and mercurial) sperms so to speak

Florius Frammel
10-28-2018, 06:13 AM
The crucible is symbolic itself as a chamber in which to Cross two substances (like the two right-angled lines of a cross) - the philosophical mercury and the philosophical sulfur - in order to achieve the Great Work.

(...)

So yes Venus IS the vessel, just as all of these references are to a type of vessel, which is ultimately representative of the egg, hermetically sealed, in which the work takes place bringing together the male and female (sulphuric and mercurial) sperms so to speak

I don't know Dom Pernety, but on this forum I learned another possible viewpoint. It actually matches with what the Golden Chain of Homer has to say. The picture is from
this post (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2451-The-Celestial-Agriculture&p=36111#post36111).

http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/11/17/05/29/niter_10.jpg

Here traditionally the second symbol/sign means "salt" and not "alkali", but I guess in this case it's meant as a symbol for the "fixed" principle, or the patiens.

Whereas the niter here stands for the "volatile" principle or the agens.

Some say it's therefore not only a fixed (probably the sulfur) and a volatile (probably the mercury) actual substance, but several that fit these particular properties.

Others (or even the same) say it's actually not even (only) about substances, but the use of polarities, opposites, oppo"sames" to provide conditions for the mercury (and subsequentally the sulfur) to "form" or somehow "collect".

Note that when these two polarities, as symbolically shown in the horizontal and vertical lines of niter and salt/alkali is mixed, it gives the cross and a symbol of the crucible, thus a(nother?) carrier in which the great work (combination of mercury and sulfur, see above) takes place.

Note that the sulfur, that in certain lineages should be imbibed with his mercury, because of this action again can be labeled as "patiens"(female), mercury as "agens"(male).

As you see here it gets difficult to really stick with an allocation of the male and female. Maybe that's a reason why the symbol of the hermaphrodite or the androgynous has been invented.

So yes, in a way it matches to what you say.

Coleridgean
10-28-2018, 09:08 PM
This from Coleridge on Alkalis:

Hence the moving and impregning of the Spirit is the first act of possibilitation, as the Lucific Word was the first creative act or the first act of realization.—Yet as Light was separated from, called out of the Ether, it must have been Ether, or some result of its ceasing to be Ether.—And this is to be sought for. If the first P/la€7Z0flZ6'71{fi£ Forces be presumed, as Carbon and Azote, now under the predominance of C. in all proportions, now of A.—but in both classes under the necessity of an inter- mediate, which is either Oxygen or Hydrogen or both (as Water) in equilibrium or as the predominance of the one or the other, both present remaining active: then the division of Bodies into Combustive, Combustible & Salty Neutral, or Acids, Alkalies, and Salts (the Metals included under Alkalies) would be convenient, and not liable to any objection of Importance, except that of new-naming the (old) Alcalies as Salts, and the reduced Metals as Alcalies.—I should, however, prefer the division of Carbonazotes (i.e. Metals) Acids, Alcalies, and Salts. with the four symbolic Elements prefixed, Carbon, Azote, Oxygen, and Hydrogen/as there does not seem in the present state of our knowlege any advantage to be attained by a conjectural nomenclature grounded on conjectures respecting the constituents of these four substances as ponderable Bodies. Thus I should say: there are two not only imponderable but immaterial Powers, Gravitation and Light. There is one imponderable yet material Power, with two opposite forces = Electricity + and — . And lastly, there is one imponderable Power, phenomenic by motion but not visible as a matter per se = Magnetism + and minus. And lastly there is one synthetic Power, containing the two former as another and greater than either, namely, Galvanism.——Thus, there are five distinct Powers, Gravitation, Light, Magnetism, Electricity and Galvanism: the 3rd and 5th of which are ‘involved in the first, and the 4th in the second, without being identical with it-—. Each of the 5 have two Poles, or antithetic forces, + and
— , or posi- and nega-tive.

Grav. = centrifugal and centripetal = — and +
Light, colorific and calorific = — and +
Magnetism, attractive and repulsive = — and +
Electr.—contractive and dilative = — and +
Galvanism, separative and constructive = — and +
These are the cosmical Decad of the Pythagoreans.

There are four ideal Elements: pure Carbon, pure Azote, pure Oxygen, and pure Hydrogen, ideally indecomponible, and corresponding to these four elementary Bodies, indecomponible (into bodies,) each supposing (all) the 4 ideal Elements, but as under the predominance of some one of them. Thus Carbon would (be) C.H.A.O. under the predominance of C. Azote = A.C.H.O. under the pr. of A. Oxygen = OCHA, under the pr. ofO. Hydrogen, H.C.A.O. under the pred. of H.—I.E. they are practically indecomponible, because eae every one of the 4. Components in each is necessary to its being a body at all. To these may be added the Metals, as hitherto not decompounded and probably all humanly indecomponible, in the present epoch of Nature.

Coleridgean
10-29-2018, 01:18 AM
http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/11/17/05/29/niter_10.jpg



Georg Von Welling in Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum (page 81 of the English transl.) has this to say of the difference in the symbols, the "Alkali" symbol being salt regular and the "Niter" symbol being special:

Now we come to the composite salts, of which we will discuss nitre first (see figure 46 [which is your "Niter" symbol]). Its spherical symbol represents the entire world and is composed of the ray of the upper light and the lower fire. Therefore, it consists of volatile and solid alkaline particles; it is a wonder-salt of nature.

Florius Frammel
10-29-2018, 07:41 AM
Now we come to the composite salts,
Does Von Welling mean both salts first have to be made out of other initial substances (composite salts)then put together to form the cross?


of which we will discuss nitre first (see figure 46 [which is your "Niter" symbol]).

The Golden Chain says the word "our" is not necessarily special. I know you meant it in another way, but there it is written that when "common/vulgar" nitre (some kind of nitrate, most likely KNO3 or CaNO3 in modern terminology) is used, it can be called "our nitre" too. So maybe that's another practical starting point.




Its spherical symbol represents the entire world and is composed of the ray of the upper light and the lower fire.
Maybe the salt (common nitre?) has to be "composed" or further treated in the same way. Instead of "lower fire" the word "central fire" is sometimes used. Maybe they are interchangeable. Interesting, that the two opposites (upper light, lower fire) are obviously represented (or connected) as a line. Reminds me on the sentence "make the fix volatile, the volatile fix". Maybe this thread can help in trying to accomplish this:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5811-Halchymia

BTW. The act of putting the index finger on the open mouth (like when you in addition say "shhhh" to make someone silent) was a recognition sign/symbol for some members of former alchemy related secret societies. I had the idea making a T-Shirt with a more modern version of this symbol ;)

http://i.imgur.com/2VqqG1h.jpg




Therefore, it consists of volatile and solid alkaline particles; it is a wonder-salt of nature.

That's a more tough quality I guess. So the niter has to be composed of different substances. One part being volatile and evaporating or sublimating very easy, whereas the other part remains behind.

Then one of course doesn't have to forget to mix it with ordinary table salt (if that is what is meant with salt regular) to make the cross/crucible. This would be an addition to the fixed part of the niter composite. Or maybe this already is the fixed part.

Or Welling meant something entirely different. Unfortunately this is also possible.

There are other symbols quite similar to the
http://media.decalsmania.com/t-shirts/agnostic/black_white.png

for example this (often connected with antimony or earth):

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2004/tabor/alchemy.jpg

copper (Venus, Virgin Mary,..)
https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX31989384.jpg

Vitriolcross (some books for example "Das Geheimnis von dem Salz - secret of the salt" say this is a symbol for the prima materia). It looks a bit like a sword put into that circle (the salt). See the discussions about the "Typus Mundi" throughout the forum, for example here:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi&p=27164#post27164


https://www.symbols.com/gi.php?type=1&id=2477

This reminds of the dragon slayer symbology (St. Marcellus, St. Georg and others). The salt is therefore the dragon (has inner fire too!). Any idea about the sword? Fulanelli as a parisien prefered St. Marcellus, who used a wooden stick instead of an iron lance. And he only touched the mouth of the dragon, instead of cutting into it. He pointed to this as if it was important.

https://www.schuetzenbruderschaft-rolfzen.de/s/cc_images/cache_2415125013.jpg?t=1310458970

The dragon is often interchangeable with the snake. And here we have a very obvious connection to the crucible and Jesus(from the old testament and the Donum Dei). So here we have the same carrier symbol.

The cross looks like the sword. So maybe it just means that the salt has to be put in the crucible. The pic says "zerteile sie", which means "cut it/her(the snake) in parts" or "tear it apart" (with the sword/cross/heated crucible?)

http://www.egodeath.com/images/egodeatharticle/HighRes/SnakePole_HiRes.jpg



And especially the mercury, that according to Fulcanelli must be collected in it's proper matrix (symbol of venus, mary, womb?) without contact to sunlight (therefore the moon symbol?)

http://citizenstaging.org/wp-content/uploads/image-gallery-mercury-alchemy-mercury-symbol.jpg

Coleridgean
10-29-2018, 06:58 PM
Reminds me on the sentence "make the fix volatile, the volatile fix".

This from Philalethes, Ripley Reviv'd:

;then begins the dissolved Body to work after its kind, and then the Spirit is passive, and the Body active; thus passive Natures are made active, and active passive, which is the Key of our Mastery (Philalethes, Ripley Reviv'd, p170)

or consider Coleridge:

a Being in whom the Potential was subordinated to the Actual, in order that the P[otential] should ultimately be swallowed up in the Actual - as the Luciferi became evil spirits, the Actual lost in (or transformed into) the Potential (CN IV 4456, 4907)


passive or potential means fixed, whereas active or actual means volatile - in motion. "In his fixedness he yearneth toward the journeying moon..."

Now, the Deluge wiped out the Nephilim, or Luciferi, and made way for a new people of Noah's line. That is, the seed of our gold was spared the mercurial overflowing of water until the flood was quelled, and the new people multiplied upon the Earth when the waters receded - those active waters became passive, and those living beings kept in the seed who were passive became active as the exited the Ark.

Seraphim
10-29-2018, 07:23 PM
Hey Florius Frammel thanks for posting. I was studying the Golden Chain of Homer and trying to match with photos/processes I found online. I came across the Hyssop Plant Stone by John Reid. What do you think about this photo? Where do you think it fits in the Golden Chain of Homer?

http://www.spagyria.com/images/hyssop_stone_show_001.jpg

Full Link: https://www.spagyria.com/plant_hyssop_stone.php

Florius Frammel
10-29-2018, 07:56 PM
The first two parts of the Golden Chain are imo rather a demonstration of fundamental principles of nature from an alchemical viewpoint. Some of those seem to had been applied when Reed did this plantstone. But as he himself says he was mostly following the recipie in Manfred Junius' book "Plant Alchemy".

Of course one gets some kind of solid matter when imbibing calcinated plant ash with ethanol and volatile oils. I personally don't see anything special or alchemical in these kind of stones (besides some of the processes), but others may think differently.

@Coleridgean

Interesting! Thank you!

And I wanted to add that the classical interpretation of the deckname "snake/serpent" is niter (KNO3 or CaNO3 - both were called "cold dragon" because of their qualities).

Another interpretation of the snake/serpent, especially it's tail was mercury (the principle and the metal).

The "chymist" Kunckel made fun of these interpretations as it obviously did not seem to help him in his alchemical quest.