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vigilance
02-27-2019, 01:56 PM
There's an english translation up on Scribd (available as book to be read online, not downloadable "document").

Translated by Joseph G. McVeigh and edited by Lon Milo DuQuette.

Opus mago-cabalisticum et theologicum (https://www.scribd.com/book/148609824/Opus-Mago-Cabbalisticum-Et-Theosophicum-In-Which-The-Origin-Nature-Characteristics-And-Use-Of-Salt-Sulfur-and-Mercury-are-Described-in-Three-Par)



(although I've made it into a pdf)

Andro
02-27-2019, 02:14 PM
The translation on Scribd (by Joseph G. McVeigh) claims to be the very first English one, while the RAMS version appears to be a bit over 200 years old (translated by a Rosicrucian and signed in 1801).

So which statement is correct?

And have you had the chance to compare the two translations?

BTW, the RAMS PDF has 190 pages, the translation on Scribd has almost 997 pages while the hardcover version of the same Scribd translation on Amazon has 576 pages :)

Note: Compared to the version on Scribd and Amazon, the RAMS version is missing chapters and entire parts, which is unfortunately not uncommon for many RAMS translations...

Florius Frammel
02-27-2019, 02:51 PM
The original indeed is huge.
Without Welling's permission, there was initially only the "sulfur" part published. But he somehow got the "rights" back and published the "mercury" and "salt" parts among others as well later. Resulting to that huge work.

Maybe that's the reason and this time it is not the fault of the RAMS guys.

vigilance
02-27-2019, 03:29 PM
For english, I have Arthur Versluis' partial translation.. I have Barret's manuscript translation (I just realized I have never browsed this.. it actually has a few diagrams). The manuscript is 187 pdf pages, each being 2 pages of notes. I don't see how it could be complete.

I have the RAMS version but I haven't paid much attention to it because I hate that font, and the OCR'd text is complete garbage. And they butchered the images.

I've only browsed the one from Scribd so far, but they seem to have done a pretty good job with the images. I've seen chapter titles and scanned some paragraphs and it looks like there's some interesting material in there. And it's much easier to read compared to the RAMS version. I am a little worried about the "editor" though since his credentials seem to be "Golden Dawn".

The scribd page count really means nothing.. It reflows the pages based on screen size. My PDF came out to 307 double pages.

As far as the older german ones:

This one from 1719 is only 116 pages (but has color diagrams):

http://www.archive.org/details/opusmagocabalist00well

This one from 1760 is 666 pages:

http://www.archive.org/details/herrngeorgiivonw00well

This one is 1735 is 650 pages (Universitats-und Landesbibliothek Dusseldorf has the same):

http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/nd-776/start.htm

This is probably the nicest copy of the 1735 edition (683 pages, colored diagrams):

https://www.e-rara.ch/doi/10.3931/e-rara-8802

Edit:

The Francis Barrett manuscript is a translation of Part 1. MS Mellon 140 in Beinecke Digital Collections:

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3445019

Sample:

https://i.imgur.com/g2QP95m.jpg

Coleridgean
03-08-2019, 05:46 AM
I have a hard copy of McVeigh and DuQuette's Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum. I have strong reason to believe Coleridge read the book, which was apparently a favorite of Goethe's. There are a few chapters that remind me of works from John Byrom's special collection

Coleridgean
03-08-2019, 05:51 AM
If there was an English translation in 1801 then it's very possible it was made possible by Benedict Chastanier, who was a London-based proponent of the work

vigilance
03-08-2019, 07:38 PM
The R.A.M.S version has:

"Translated from teh original German of Baron George Von Welling, and carefully corrected and revised by:

Francis Barrett F. R. C.
(With additional notes & observations)
Professor of Chymistry & Natural Philosophy/

London June 1801.


It seems to suggest that Barrett wasn't the original translator (sometime before 1801), but he corrected and revised the translation.

Coleridgean
03-09-2019, 12:31 AM
I thought I had known most of the occult scene of England around the 1790's but Barrett's name escaped me entirely. His name didnt come up as part of the New Jerusalem Church, Swedenborgianism, or anything in the illuminist movements of either Weishaupt or Pernety. Will have to read up on him.

Wow what a small world - there's a paper on him written by an R. Priddle in Ottawa, where I live (U Ottawa is right down the street from me):

https://ruor.uottawa.ca/bitstream/10393/23777/1/Priddle_Robert_A._2013_thesis.pdf

I'd really like to see that older English translation. Most of the practical alchemy is at the back in the appendices

Coleridgean
03-09-2019, 12:39 AM
Oh - lol - you're also in Ottawa. Now that's definitely a small world

Coleridgean
03-09-2019, 12:54 AM
OK here is a connection - this author (link below) claims that Barrett was "likely trained under physician and astrologer, Ebenezer Sibly". Sibly was a regular member of the New Jerusalem Church and active when Benedict Chastanier was around.

https://blogs.adelaide.edu.au/special-collections/2018/10/03/the-magus-or-celestial-intelligencer-by-francis-barrett-1801/

vigilance
03-09-2019, 01:19 AM
I did post a link to a digitized manuscript of Barrett's above.. having brought up the info from the RAMS version, its occurred to me its probably at least part of the basis of the 1801 version.

Its not hard to miss Barrett - he didn't do much. I think "The Magus" and "Lives of Alchemystical Philosphers" are his only publications. The source material for the Magus, like the Key of Solomon and Agrippa's books of occult philosophy was never that rare.. and probably superior to his summary. I don't think he was ever that popular or got much traction.

And since then, for the material he covered, he kind of got buried by the Golden Dawn and Theosophists, and the whole Spiritualism thing.

There's various claims made about Barrett online, like his work translation "kabbalistic texts" and whatnot, but I see no proof of that anywhere.

Coleridgean
03-09-2019, 01:36 AM
Coleridge and Southey played around with Agrippa in the 1790's at the height of their collaboration. Coleridge wrote "Rash Conjuror" based on Agrippa but never published the poem, which was a modification of Southey's original. I find Barrett interesting because he is a direct contemporary of Coleridge, whose own theories on alchemy changed dramatically after the turn of the century.

Seraphim
03-09-2019, 04:55 PM
Schamajim

That's a cool word. Anyone know what it means? There is another anonymous translation of the first part of this book from 1780.

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3445020

vigilance
03-09-2019, 05:38 PM
Schamajim

That's a cool word. Anyone know what it means? There is another anonymous translation of the first part of this book from 1780.

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3445020

Nice find. I can't say for certain that's not Barrett's hand at a different time.. Some of the capital "L"s, "G"s, and "S"s are the same, but its not consistent throughout either manuscript.

Beinecke also have parts II and III of that one listed in the catalog, they just aren't digitized.

vigilance
03-09-2019, 07:57 PM
So I did a quick check. MS Mellon 140 is the source of the RAMS publication (you can click on the images for larger view):

https://i.imgur.com/yUWsnhf.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/IubVl2n.jpg)

https://i.imgur.com/fb97HnW.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/uoSJIPh.jpg)

There are a lot of differences between the earlier manuscript Seraphim found and the later Barrett copy. But, there are also a lot of similarities. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the source material for Barrett's translation.

Coleridgean
03-10-2019, 11:38 PM
Schamajim

That's a cool word. Anyone know what it means? There is another anonymous translation of the first part of this book from 1780.

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3445020

Schamajim means "the heavens" and seems to be related to the Hebrew words Semida and Semiramoth per the Dictionnaire historique, critique, chronologique, geographique et literral de la Bible, Volume 4

Seraphim
03-12-2019, 02:50 AM
So I did a quick check. MS Mellon 140 is the source of the RAMS publication (you can click on the images for larger view)

There are a lot of differences between the earlier manuscript Seraphim found and the later Barrett copy. But, there are also a lot of similarities. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the source material for Barrett's translation.

I have noticed some differences too but haven't had time to read them fully yet.


Schamajim means "the heavens" and seems to be related to the Hebrew words Semida and Semiramoth per the Dictionnaire historique, critique, chronologique, geographique et literral de la Bible, Volume 4

Thanks Coleridgean.

Florius Frammel
03-13-2019, 01:49 PM
These posts from many years ago might also be helpful:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1702-quot-Compass-of-the-Wise-quot-released!&p=11650#post11650

solomon levi
03-14-2019, 09:36 PM
Schamajim

That's a cool word. Anyone know what it means? There is another anonymous translation of the first part of this book from 1780.

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3445020

it's a variant spelling of ShMIM, shamayim which means "heaven, sky, air..." it's a combination of the words fire and water, esh and mayim. This is the Hebrew from the first verse of Genesis where ALHIM created the heavens and the earth.

Seraphim
03-16-2019, 04:41 PM
Thank you all. I found some inconsistencies between the 1801 Francis Barrett version and the newer reprint from 2006. Guess I will stick to the original 1801 English translation. In the beginning God created the Heavens Shamajim (Fiery Water or Watery Fire) being the beginning of the beginning? Then Haaretz? (Earth) was created from the expansion of the Heavens? :confused:

Florius Frammel
03-16-2019, 05:33 PM
It's not my kind of music, but there exists a heavy metal band called "Mayhem" ;-)

Michael Sternbach
03-19-2019, 12:13 PM
It's not my kind of music, but there exists a heavy metal band called "Mayhem" ;-)

Yeah, and adding "sch" as a prefix to all kinds of different words is so popular at the moment, there is even a name for this method now...

Lo and behold, there you are!

Andro
03-19-2019, 01:13 PM
Yeah, and adding "sch" as a prefix to all kinds of different words is so popular at the moment, there is even a name for this method now...
Method Shmethod :p

Seraphim
06-05-2019, 05:07 PM
This one is pretty. It looks like a flower, star or gem all in one image.

https://i.imgur.com/81cUjjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IO2L84e.png

vigilance
06-05-2019, 11:45 PM
!!! Well that's pretty "on the nose" for what I've been working on lately. I actually deal with the basic geometry on this post about Franckenberg's 'Tetrachord' (https://atrightanglestoreality.blogspot.com/2019/02/franckenbergs-tetrachord-and-other.html)

I've been working on reproducing a bunch of Giordano Bruno's diagrams. This was a favorite of his too (both versions of "4 intersecting circles"). None of these are actually finished yet (gotta pick a font to add his labelling, and some are missing decorations). Bruno predates Welling by about 150 years:

https://i.imgur.com/Cc5xNPU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3vnvPcz.jpg

Atrium Apollonis:

https://i.imgur.com/DyM9V0V.jpg


Atrium Minervae:

https://i.imgur.com/4d0JhfJ.jpg