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Awani
01-13-2020, 05:48 PM
This is a Spin-off Thread from Saturneus' Introduction post. - this thread is also where a bunch of off-topic posts in other threads ended up


I am afraid that I will be banned from this forum if I insist to stand my ground and enter into a debate with those with disagreeing opinions, so I wish not to enter such a debate at all.

There is no risk of that. We don't ban people based on opinion if they can discuss it without personal attacks. See Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3).


...you want to compare what had happened in WWII to a barrier erected to stop terrorist acts.

What is terrorism? What are freedom fighters? What is human rights? What is the difference hate of X people or hate of Y people? Does the past justify the future? There are so many perspectives. But fine if you don't want to debate it.

Orthodoxy is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, so I guess it would be futile to discuss since you adhere to "the accepted view" of things it seems. I am surprised you are even allowed to consider "alchemy" as a path considering your choice of religion? Are the current Kohen more open-minded? I knew an "orthodox" Christian in the States when I lived there, and his Church didn't allow him to even listen to Alternative Rock (like Smashing Pumpkins and Nirvana). I'm not that familiar with your religion so wondering about how "strict" it is in occult matters?

I do have another question though, that I'm interested in. Do you consider any criticism against Israel as a government or a state as being "anti-Semitic"?

:p

Saturneus
01-13-2020, 06:16 PM
Orthodoxy is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, so I guess it would be futile to discuss since you adhere to "the accepted view" of things it seems. I am surprised you are even allowed to consider "alchemy" as a path considering your choice of religion? Are the current Kohen more open-minded? I knew an "orthodox" Christian in the States when I lived there, and his Church didn't allow him to even listen to Alternative Rock (like Smashing Pumpkins and Nirvana). I'm not that familiar with your religion so wondering about how "strict" it is in occult matters?

I do have another question though, that I'm interested in. Do you consider any criticism against Israel as a government or a state as being "anti-Semitic"?

:p

You will know my opinions about Judaism and thus Judaism's opinion about Judaism in time.

As for your question, You might be surprised, but we have an acute sense that enables us to recognize when a person criticizes Israel for what he sees as wrongdoings, and between when he uses these as a disguise to hide his political warfare against Judaism's mission in the world.

Awani
01-13-2020, 06:42 PM
You might be surprised, but we have an acute sense that enables us to recognize when a person criticizes Israel for what he sees as wrongdoings, and between when he uses these as a disguise to hide his political warfare against Judaism's mission in the world.

So whilst you might be able to see the difference, my experience is that this is not the case at all.

But what you wrote made me curious, because you said "against Judaism's mission in the world"? Is there such a thing? Or do you mean the anti-semite belives that there is such a thing?

:p

Saturneus
01-13-2020, 07:57 PM
So whilst you might be able to see the difference, my experience is that this is not the case at all.

But what you wrote made me curious, because you said "against Judaism's mission in the world"? Is there such a thing? Or do you mean the anti-semite belives that there is such a thing?

:p

There is such a thing.
Sadly most Jews don't care for it one bit.

I think the problem of antisemitism is 3 fold.
1) The antisemite does not understand the mission, thinking it would harm him.
2) Jews (those who still care for the mission) haven't done a good enough job, so the antisemite is left hungry for what it is the Jews owe him, without even realizing this, so he turns on the Jews. (A clear warning from G-d of what the Nations will do to us if we Don't do our jobs).
3) Antisemitism is made of various complaints about the wrongdoings of Jews, yet, these wrongdoings are common in all people, but the Jew is held to a higher standard, a bit hypocritical but necessary. So really these complaints are a fog hiding the true cry against the whole body of Judaism. Which really is only because he is hungry to what his soul knows Judaism is to provide for him.

It is a vicious loop when Jewish children grow up learning how the world hates them so they seek to shed their Judaism and become like the Nations, but then no one is doing the job of giving the Nations what it is they need so the hatred grows.

Awani
01-13-2020, 09:04 PM
Well there is a 4th point perhaps; that people dislike other people thinking they are something. Like monarchs or nobility thinking they are a different class because of blood. That could rub some people the wrong way. I for one dislike nobility greatly for this reason.

What is the mission?


Jews (those who still care for the mission) haven't done a good enough job, so the antisemite is left hungry for what it is the Jews owe him, without even realizing this.

This to me sounds like "holier than thou" attitude.

:p

Saturneus
01-13-2020, 10:11 PM
Well there is a 4th point perhaps; that people dislike other people thinking they are something. Like monarchs or nobility thinking they are a different class because of blood. That could rub some people the wrong way. I for one dislike nobility greatly for this reason.

What is the mission?



This to me sounds like "holier than thou" attitude.

:p

G-d chose Israel to carry the knowledge that rectifies the Earth and brings back humanity to the Garden.

You wish it was you who was chosen, or out of self-righteousness, you would say you wish everyone was chosen. But then, Who would be there to deny the truthfulness of the knowledge? What would be there to maintain free choice?

So G-d could have chosen you, but then others would have whined you are a self-proclaimed noble, and we'd be right where we started.

Awani
01-13-2020, 10:19 PM
I have no need to be chosen. I don't have that kind of ego.

If that is the "mission" I've never heard such hogwash before. Whatever gets you off I guess. :)

:p

Awani
01-13-2020, 10:31 PM
Can you be a gay Orthodox Jew?

Edit: Nevermind

we orthodox jews desperately need gay rabbis (https://www.jweekly.com/2019/05/28/we-orthodox-jews-desperately-need-gay-rabbis/)

:p

Saturneus
01-13-2020, 10:47 PM
Can you be a gay Orthodox Jew?

Edit: Nevermind

we orthodox jews desperately need gay rabbis (https://www.jweekly.com/2019/05/28/we-orthodox-jews-desperately-need-gay-rabbis/)

:p

I don't think this was called for.

This is why I am afraid to of such debates.
There are rules in place, but who guarantees they'd be followed?

Awani
01-13-2020, 10:52 PM
It's an important question I think. Many religions have changed in the past 20 years due to the rise of gay rights... wondering if the people who do the mission for God can do that in rainbow colors? After doing some searching (as provided by the link) it seems they can.


There are rules in place, but who guarantees they'd be followed?

You mean for the forum or in your religion?

:p

Saturneus
01-13-2020, 11:22 PM
You mean for the forum or in your religion?

:p

In the forum.

It is clear to me I am triggering you for some reason, though I try to be as honorable and friendly as I possibly can, if you are a mod, who promises me you won't just ban me when the triggering is too much?

Awani
01-13-2020, 11:28 PM
...who promises me you won't just ban me when the triggering is too much?

We don't ban people that follow the rules. Already been stated.

When you present yourself as an Orthodox Jew and basically not saying anything else, then I need to know more. And the more I get to know, the more I want to know. Who better to ask about "chosen people" and "antisemitism" and "the wall" than an Orthodox Jew? If you had been an Imam I would have asked something about that.

Personally all religions is my religion. Although I must admit Judaism is one I find the least inspiring, but I like them all. They work well if you blend them. But I strongly disagree with "the Wall" and with the concept of "the chosen people" and this is why people call me an anti-semite. And I say that is bullshit. I even have a copy of Mein Kampf, don't make me an anti-semite either. I have lots of books. I have the Communist Manifesto as well. Doesn't make me a communist. Know your enemy as they say.

I think Israel is a terrorist state, and based on what you've said I assume you think the opposite. In fact, most states are terrorists so Israel is not that special, but it's the only one that's built a wall currently (as far as I know). A bit funny, considering all the struggle that went on to try and tear down that wall in Berlin. Humans really are dumb.

:p

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 12:49 AM
We don't ban people that follow the rules. Already been stated.

When you present yourself as an Orthodox Jew and basically not saying anything else, then I need to know more. And the more I get to know, the more I want to know. Who better to ask about "chosen people" and "antisemitism" and "the wall" than an Orthodox Jew? If you had been an Imam I would have asked something about that.

Personally all religions is my religion. Although I must admit Judaism is one I find the least inspiring, but I like them all. They work well if you blend them. But I strongly disagree with "the Wall" and with the concept of "the chosen people" and this is why people call me an anti-semite. And I say that is bullshit. I even have a copy of Mein Kampf, don't make me an anti-semite either. I have lots of books. I have the Communist Manifesto as well. Doesn't make me a communist. Know your enemy as they say.

I think Israel is a terrorist state, and based on what you've said I assume you think the opposite. In fact, most states are terrorists so Israel is not that special, but it's the only one that's built a wall currently (as far as I know). A bit funny, considering all the struggle that went on to try and tear down that wall in Berlin. Humans really are dumb.

:p

If I trust you that you will not ban me.
I will discuss all these matters with you.
But this is my first day here... Give it time.

Awani
01-14-2020, 01:19 AM
I don't think there's a point having that debate. It's not going to change the situation in Israel, unless you are in charge over there. LOL. I think I know where you stand and you where I, to some degree. But you are free to post about it if you want.

:p

Awani
01-14-2020, 07:57 AM
Personally, I support Israel, their wall etc. but I have a different background and understanding and mindset about it all (relatively speaking) *shrugs*

The US and Saudi Arabia has been allied for so long and thus pushed their agenda in the Western media for generations, so I'm not surprised. If you look at the issue with empathy and humanity then it is clear the Wall and the settlements and the manner in which it is done (and the women and children that suffer) that only a psychopath would be behind such a thing.

Also if someone came to my house and told me they would take it from me I'd fucking kill them. Sure I'd be labelled a terrorist, but in my world I'm a freedom fighter.

As for terrorists, most of them are funded by the people who fight to stop them. That's how the business go.

The members of Knesset, the White House, Congress, The House of Saud, The Rothschilds, The Kock Family, The World Bank, IMF etc. (list is long) and all the rest of them should just be gathered up dragged out on the fucking streets and hanged for crimes against humanity and the ecosystem. Sometimes I wish there was an Old Testament God, because that's the solution he'd have. If he sends a flood for what the humans did back then I'm sure he'd send a flood of lava in this instance.

Worst of all are all the moronic sheep that promote above people, that vote for them and that believe everything the media says - media that those people own no less, and all the people who buy shit from the corporations that all those people above "really work for" like BlackRock, Chevron and all the rest of them. Again the list is long.

The very fact that Muslims are portrayed as terrorists by the Elite and the general idiots walking the streets, and the very fact that any criticism against Israel is labelled anti-Semitic is a clear indication of the brainwashing that has been going on.

Philosophically Hitler saw Jews as a problem in society and he wanted them gone, and he also considered his own "race" to be superior. Israel today see Palestinians as a problem and they want them gone (I've seen plenty of average citizens and politicians sharing that sentiment), and they consider themselves the "chosen people". Hitler built camps. Israel builds a wall. Yes, it's true they haven't got any concentration camps in Israel per se, but the similarities archetypically are astounding.

Anyone supporting Hitler or Israel are part of the same group of people, only with different fashion choices. In my humble opinion.

Also any American that supports Israel should also support the Native Americans re-settlement of the USA and the enclosure of all Americans with a huge wall going around Manhattan a la Escape from New York (if we go with the reasons Israel has). I mean if you think the region belongs to Jews then certainly the USA belongs to the Native Americans. But of course not. We pick and choose usually based on who has got the money. Perhaps the people of England should be re-settled with the people who lived there before the British and so on. What would a person in Texas do if the government decreed that his house and land now belonged to an Apache family. He'd pack up his guns and walk away? Would he? No he wouldn't.

People need to insert brains into their skulls OR this world will remain the shit show it is.

I cannot believe people - still to this day - adhere to the vomit spewing out from the News and from Government. Humanity truly is asleep and those awake are always ridiculed or burned at the stake, but no one will burn me before I bring some of them with me. If this was Star Wars I'd be a Jedi and Netanyahu (or whatever stooge comes next) is Darth Vader (without the redemption aspect).

Oh before I forget, fuck the Pope. :)

:p

vigilance
01-14-2020, 04:23 PM
G-d chose Israel to carry the knowledge that rectifies the Earth and brings back humanity to the Garden.

You wish it was you who was chosen, or out of self-righteousness, you would say you wish everyone was chosen. But then, Who would be there to deny the truthfulness of the knowledge? What would be there to maintain free choice?

So G-d could have chosen you, but then others would have whined you are a self-proclaimed noble, and we'd be right where we started.

"Originally Adam = Mankind was suppose to do the Tikkun . The power to do this Tikkun is called Israel. Originally it had nothing to do with Jews. An Israel was someone who had this power to affect the entire world . With his 5 level of Souls he could elevate the 5 worlds through every action."

Andro
01-14-2020, 04:44 PM
G-d chose Israel

The power to do this Tikkun is called Israel. Originally it had nothing to do with Jews. An Israel was someone who had this power to affect the entire world.
Greg, what you bring up here is extremely interesting and intriguing!

Could this just be one big semantic misunderstanding? No "chosen people" after all? This would really simplify things AND further complicate them at the same time :)

Also, I'm pretty sure there are quite a few of these "Israels" around, but for some reason they opt to remain hidden...

Also, what do you mean by "5 level of souls" and by the "5 worlds"?

Thanks.

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 04:47 PM
"Originally Adam = Mankind was suppose to do the Tikkun . The power to do this Tikkun is called Israel. Originally it had nothing to do with Jews. An Israel was someone who had this power to affect the entire world . With his 5 level of Souls he could elevate the 5 worlds through every action."

True.
But... Salvation in Tanakh/Judaism. is not salvation for the individual, but rather salvation for the collective, and the individual is saved through the collective.
The Alchemy of the Tanakh/Judaism is not individual, it is an operation of a collective scale, through the dynamics between Judaism and other beliefs, between Israel and other nations, occurs a change in the collective psyche/consciousness.
But after Babel, when humanity divided into nations, the age of individuals was over, there could be no more Noahs, that by themselves operate change in the world.
After Babel, there was a need for a nation to operate that change in the world. So G-d chose Abraham and told him he will produce a nation for G-d. Through that Nation, and its dynamic with the world, the collective consciousness would be influenced and shaped in a manner desirable to G-d.

I believe your consciousness is where it is, because it has been influenced by Christianity. It is out of Christianity that you had come to know Israel and Judaism... It is out of Judaism that your consciousness is being prepared to enter back into Eden.

But there wouldn't be christianity if it wasn't for the struggle between the Nation of Israel, and the nations who represented hellenistic consciousness, and then there wouldn't be this amalgamation of Judaism and hellenism that influenced Europe, that then influenced many nations all over the world.

It had to be through a Nation... an individual like the likes of Noah wouldn't have been able to do it.

Awani
01-14-2020, 04:56 PM
You'd probably enjoy this (https://www.rickstrassman.com/publications/dmt-and-the-soul-of-prophecy/) book. I personally didn't think it was that good, but I suspect it might be more up your alley.

:p

Andro
01-14-2020, 05:00 PM
You'd probably enjoy this (https://www.rickstrassman.com/publications/dmt-and-the-soul-of-prophecy/) book.
Israeli Researcher Says Moses Was High On Psychedelics When He Spoke To God (https://truththeory.com/2019/04/11/scientist-says-moses-was-high-on-psychedelics-when-he-spoke-to-god/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZl6BC__xc0

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 05:02 PM
Greg.

Imagine if G-d gave the Torah with all its depths, to a single family.
And there comes a time when that family is conquered by the Romans.
And the Romans choose to believe that a member of that family is the promised Messiah.

The original family would be wiped out, it would not survive.
How could it withstand the might of Rome. It is even miraculous that Jews have withstood the might of Rome even as a nation.
So... Imagine having Nicean Christianity without the struggle and dynamics with Jews.
That Nicean Christianity would never in a million years develop into Kabbalistic Christianity and the type of knowledge that had influenced you.

Awani
01-14-2020, 05:04 PM
Israeli Researcher Says Moses Was High On Psychedelics When He Spoke To God

Even if I dislike the book for various reasons I think it is a bit deeper than the above clickbait article. LOL. There were some gems in it, but as a whole you really have to have an interest in Judaism to fully enjoy it I think. The author wrote the book whilst trying to rekindle his roots.

:p

Awani
01-14-2020, 05:07 PM
I believe your consciousness is where it is, because it has been influenced by Christianity. It is out of Christianity that you had come to know Israel and Judaism... It is out of Judaism that your consciousness is being prepared to enter back into Eden.

What about pre-Judaism? Or did the Stone Age never happen? Judaism is a pretty new religion in terms of time.

Eden - if there even was such a thing - existed long before the concepts of Judaism even existed. I guess it depends if you read the Torah in a literal or symbolic way.

:p

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 05:08 PM
No one has produced a work even close to what Moses gave us.
Maybe they need more shrooms.

Awani
01-14-2020, 05:12 PM
No one has produced a work even close to what Moses gave us.

It's a padded list.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8

Also in the list there is a clear sign the Creator is the Devil, as he is "jealous" of other God. LOL. What a petty fucker. Could be a bad translation. I have no idea what the actual text says, i.e. if the translation is good.

:p

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 05:19 PM
What about pre-Judaism? Or did the Stone Age never happen? Judaism is a pretty new religion in terms of time.

Eden - if there even was such a thing - existed long before the concepts of Judaism even existed. I guess it depends if you read the Torah in a literal or symbolic way.

:p

It's a good question... Could a world without Jewish information produce the consciousness suited for Eden?
I think not. But still... Good question.

Awani
01-14-2020, 05:21 PM
Could a world without Jewish information produce the consciousness suited for Eden?.

“The Ego is a veil between humans and God’.” - Rumi

“In prayer all are equal.” - Rumi

:p

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 05:23 PM
“The Ego is a veil between humans and God’.” - Rumi

“In prayer all are equal.” - Rumi

:p

Do you wish to kill your Ego? As in get rid of it and become egoless?

Awani
01-14-2020, 05:30 PM
I was referring to your statement below:


Could a world without Jewish information produce the consciousness suited for Eden?

I think the world will do just fine without Jewish information. Don't worry about it. It might aid some people, and that is cool... but with that kind of outlook there is a big chance the Ego will take over totally.


Do you wish to kill your Ego? As in get rid of it and become egoless?

There is no need to kill it or become egoless if you are in awareness.

:p

vigilance
01-14-2020, 05:39 PM
Greg, what you bring up here is extremely interesting and intriguing!

Could this just be one big semantic misunderstanding? No "chosen people" after all? This would really simplify things AND further complicate them at the same time :)

Also, I'm pretty sure there are quite a few of these "Israels" around, but for some reason they opt to remain hidden...

Also, what do you mean by "5 level of souls" and by the "5 worlds"?

Thanks.

That wasn't mine.. It was something I saved from some Kabbalah-related Rabbi on Facebook. :D I don't know why we are concentrating on the Jews for this "Chosen" thing. Christianity teaches the same thing, that they are the Chosen. Some fundamentalist-leaning sects even consider themselves the "Real Jews". It's pretty common among non-judeo-christian belief systems as well.

But if you accept that the "early christian church" centered at Jerusalem was "just" another jewish sect at the time (and some of the followers seem to have enjoyed certain priviledges at the temple), then we could consider John in this context - and the Book of Revelations as an example of Merkaba literature. And to compare Rev. 7:9

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

.. which seems to suggest a mixed-multitude can "Greet the Shekinah", which is who the Bride is.



Come to the Wedding!
You Are Cordially Invited to a Royal Wedding!
Today – today – today
is the wedding of the King.
If you are born for this,
Chosen by God for joy,
You may ascend the mount
Whereon three temples stand
And see the Thing yourself.
Take heed,
Observe yourself!
If you’re not clean enough,
The wedding can work ill.
Perjure here at your peril;
He who is light, beware!


The Zohar teaches:
"'And who sustains the world and causes the Fathers (Patriarchs) to appear? It is the voices of the children who study the Torah. The world exists thanks to these children.'"

In this sense, the studying the torah is connected to the different levels of interpretation mentioned in another thread (PaRdes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis).

I can't speak to the 5 worlds, at least off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up. It doesn't even ring any bells for me.

The 5 levels of the soul has been discussed in another thread.. I think this is the writeup from wikipedia:


The Kabbalah posits that the human soul has three elements, the nefesh, ru'ach, and neshamah. The nefesh is found in all humans, and enters the physical body at birth. It is the source of one's physical and psychological nature. The next two parts of the soul are not implanted at birth, but can be developed over time; their development depends on the actions and beliefs of the individual. They are said to only fully exist in people awakened spiritually. A common way of explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:

Nefesh (נפש): the lower part, or 'animal part', of the soul. It is linked to instincts and bodily cravings. This part of the soul is provided at birth.

Ruach (רוח): the middle soul, the 'spirit'. It contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.

Neshamah (נשמה): the higher soul, or 'super-soul'. This separates man from all other life-forms. It is related to the intellect and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. It allows one to have some awareness of the existence and presence of God.

The Raaya Meheimna, a section of related teachings spread throughout the Zohar, discusses fourth and fifth parts of the human soul, the chayyah and yehidah (first mentioned in the Midrash Rabbah). Gershom Scholem writes that these 'were considered to represent the sublimest levels of intuitive cognition, and to be within the grasp of only a few chosen individuals'. The Chayyah and the Yechidah do not enter into the body like the other three—thus they received less attention in other sections of the Zohar.

Chayyah (חיה): The part of the soul that allows one to have an awareness of the divine life force itself.

Yehidah (יחידה): The highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve as full a union with God as is possible.

Both rabbinic and kabbalistic works posit that there are a few additional, non-permanent states of the soul that people can develop on certain occasions. These extra souls, or extra states of the soul, play no part in any afterlife scheme, but are mentioned for completeness:

Ruach HaKodesh (רוח הקודש) ('spirit of holiness'): a state of the soul that makes prophecy possible. Since the age of classical prophecy passed, no one (outside of Israel) receives the soul of prophecy any longer.

Neshamah Yeseira: The 'supplemental soul' that a Jew can experience on Shabbat. It makes possible an enhanced spiritual enjoyment of the day. This exists only when one is observing Shabbat; it can be lost and gained depending on one's observance.

Neshamah Kedosha: Provided to Jews at the age of maturity (13 for boys, 12 for girls) and is related to the study and fulfillment of the Torah commandments. It exists only when one studies and follows the Torah; it can be lost and gained depending on one's study and observance

vigilance
01-14-2020, 05:43 PM
True.
But... Salvation in Tanakh/Judaism. is not salvation for the individual, but rather salvation for the collective, and the individual is saved through the collective.

But the quote specified "An" Israel.


I believe your consciousness is where it is, because it has been influenced by Christianity. It is out of Christianity that you had come to know Israel and Judaism... It is out of Judaism that your consciousness is being prepared to enter back into Eden.

Easy now. You have no idea where my consciousness is at.

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 05:44 PM
Fair enough.

vigilance
01-14-2020, 05:45 PM
Greg.

Imagine if G-d gave the Torah with all its depths, to a single family.
And there comes a time when that family is conquered by the Romans.
And the Romans choose to believe that a member of that family is the promised Messiah.

The original family would be wiped out, it would not survive.
How could it withstand the might of Rome. It is even miraculous that Jews have withstood the might of Rome even as a nation.
So... Imagine having Nicean Christianity without the struggle and dynamics with Jews.
That Nicean Christianity would never in a million years develop into Kabbalistic Christianity and the type of knowledge that had influenced you.

You are talking out your ass.

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 06:02 PM
You are talking out your ass.

Maybe I crossed the line thinking I know exactly where you stand.

But now... You are really in denial.

No matter how you want to spin it, you wouldn't be here talking Kabbalah and studying it if it wasn't for the survival of Israel as a nation against the might of Christian Europe.
If you want to believe Christian Europe would have stumbled it's way to Kabbalah, without the dynamic it experienced with Jews, go ahead... Naive is what I have to say.

Awani
01-14-2020, 06:12 PM
No matter how you want to spin it, you wouldn't be here talking Kabbalah and studying it if it wasn't for the survival of Israel as a nation against the might of Christian Europe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxsIG5q_Mw

No matter how you want to spin it, you wouldn't be here talking alchemy and studying it, if it wasn't for the survival of pot heads as a group against the might of square folks everywhere.

:p

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 06:28 PM
This is why I emphasize salvation through the collective.
The reason you experienced this wonderful state of mind, yet found it so hard to maintain, is not because of you, but because the other actors who are not aware, keep knocking you out of the dance, they are ruining your dance steps so you are knocked out.

The only way to maintain that dance is to set civilization up in such a way that it allows for it. It is the collective that sets this civilization up, not the individual.

I believe Kabbalah is the blueprint for that civilization.

vigilance
01-14-2020, 06:31 PM
Maybe I crossed the line thinking I know exactly where you stand.

But now... You are really in denial.

No matter how you want to spin it, you wouldn't be here talking Kabbalah and studying it if it wasn't for the survival of Israel as a nation against the might of Christian Europe.
If you want to believe Christian Europe would have stumbled it's way to Kabbalah, without the dynamic it experienced with Jews, go ahead... Naive is what I have to say.

None of the above has anything to do with my reply, and I think you know that. You seem to think you have some special knowledge of what has influenced others.

From your vantage point, living in Israel since you were a child, you magically know what christianity teaches its adherents and how it influences them. And I'm quite sure, at least before typing this sentence you would have denied the opposite is possible. That we could not know what Judaism really teaches, and how it has influenced you.

You also.. I would say by tone, seem to believe that Judaism sprung up from nowhere, and previous belief systems and cultures had no influence.

Moses basically identified as, and was educated as, an Egyptian. Until, at 40, he decided to find his people.

You'll find all kinds of proto-kabbalah (or actually, "hebrew mysticism") in Egypt. The "throne", the "hand of god", all that good stuff.

I can't actually talk about Christian or Hermetic Kabbalah, because I don't really know that much about it, except for the modern version that reduces it to hermeticism with different words.

I DO know that many of the 15th-17th european personalities mentioned in terms of "Hermetic Kabbalah" were actually pretty serious and genuine about their Kabbalah, learning sincerely from Rabbis, and is considered the beginnings of Hermetic Kabbalah is really fairly authentic "hebrew" kabbalah with terms changed for cutlural reasons.

As far as this statement "survival of Israel as a nation against the might of Christian Europe.".. I know a fair bit of history, and i have no idea what you are talking about. There were pogroms against and exiles and ghetto-izations of the Jews in different places at different times, but it has never been universal, and when run out of one place they found a home in another.

There has never been a concerted universal european conspiracy against the survival of the jews.

Saturneus
01-14-2020, 06:35 PM
None of the above has anything to do with my reply, and I think you know that. You seem to think you have some special knowledge of what has influenced others.

From your vantage point, living in Israel since you were a child, you magically know what christianity teaches its adherents and how it influences them. And I'm quite sure, at least before typing this sentence you would have denied the opposite is possible. That we could not know what Judaism really teaches, and how it has influenced you.

You also.. I would say by tone, seem to believe that Judaism sprung up from nowhere, and previous belief systems and cultures had no influence.

Moses basically identified as, and was educated as, an Egyptian. Until, at 40, he decided to find his people.

You'll find all kinds of proto-kabbalah (or actually, "hebrew mysticism") in Egypt. The "throne", the "hand of god", all that good stuff.

I can't actually talk about Christian or Hermetic Kabbalah, because I don't really know that much about it, except for the modern version that reduces it to hermeticism with different words.

I DO know that many of the 15th-17th european personalities mentioned in terms of "Hermetic Kabbalah" were actually pretty serious and genuine about their Kabbalah, learning sincerely from Rabbis, and is considered the beginnings of Hermetic Kabbalah is really fairly authentic "hebrew" kabbalah with terms changed for cutlural reasons.

As far as this statement "survival of Israel as a nation against the might of Christian Europe.".. I know a fair bit of history, and i have no idea what you are talking about. There were pogroms against and exiles and ghetto-izations of the Jews in different places at different times, but it has never been universal, and when run out of one place they found a home in another.

There has never been a concerted universal european conspiracy against the survival of the jews.

I agree with much of what you say, but you are missing my point entirely.

Those Rabbis, who helped trigger the birth of this Christian Hermetic Kabbalah, wouldn't have been around to do so if it weren't for the fact that Israel was a Nation, and not just a group, or a family of individuals, for the like of such, wouldn't have been able to withstand the resistance put forth by the Greeks and Romans for example.
So this goes back to my point about WHY G-d ordained it so the knowledge would be given to a nation, and not to a Guru or ascendant master, etc.

Awani
01-14-2020, 06:43 PM
Next time don't kill Jesus. ;) Caiaphas was a son of a bitch. LOL.

:p

vigilance
01-14-2020, 06:44 PM
I agree with much of what you say, but you are missing my point entirely.

Those Rabbis, who helped trigger the birth of this Christian Hermetic Kabbalah, wouldn't have been around to do so if it weren't for the fact that Israel was a Nation, and not just a group, or a family of individuals, for the like of such, wouldn't have been able to withstand the resistance put forth by the Greeks and Romans for example.
So this goes back to my point about WHY G-d ordained it so the knowledge would be given to a nation, and not to a Guru or ascendant master, etc.

I didn't miss anything, I clearly stated your reply had nothing to do with my objection. You responded to that, stating that maybe you had crossed a line presuming to know what people think and how they were influenced, and then managed to launch right back into it.

One thing I am is too old and experienced to get into these debates.

Awani
01-15-2020, 08:44 PM
Well... now you know.

Judaism, just like Islam and Christianity, has gone through changes. I wonder if you have ever looked at the historical development of Judaism, because many things considered essential in Judaism didn't at one point in time exist... they evolved. It was normal human beings - usually in power - that made choices and many years later these people were made saints of prophets in order to give their "ideas" more weight.

The Bible is an important text, just as important as the works of Aesop and Dante. With fables and allegories we can gain a lot of wisdom and insight, but to look at them as 100 % factual would be naive and erroneous.

If God's creation was perfect why do Jews have to clip the foreskin? If God is the only God and there are no other Gods, then "how" can he be jealous of other Gods? If there are no other God's why would a being so powerful as God be jealous of things that do not exist? And so on and so fort.

When reading sacred texts we have to do a at least two things:

1. Look at the subtext.
2. Deduct the politics and agenda of the time they were written in.

:p

Awani
01-15-2020, 09:10 PM
However, you still know this is 100% the truth.

We have an inside joke here in Alchemy Forums. A joke that has been going on for many years. Basically when a new member utters the phrase "100 % truth" it always has the same ending... they begin flame wars, they begin trolling, they begin thread hijacking and eventually they get banned.

There is nothing wrong in saying 100 % truth per se, but the inside joke is based on historical facts regarding the behaviour of past members no longer here. Basically it is a major red flag.

Ye be warned.

:p

Andro
01-15-2020, 09:14 PM
This is an issue you need to address yourself and solve it for yourself before you can ask me these questions.
you are going to use these pearls I just gave you and incorporate them in your pitiful excuse for a model by which you explain reality?
The Egyptian system is stupid!!! Whereas Kabbalah makes sense.
Dude... stop. You know the systems are different to their core, and Judaism is by far superior.

If you keep up this "holier-than-though" attitude, the (unsolicited), "I'm here to teach" approach and the "my way or the highway" type of "chosen people" arrogance, then the almighty M-d will banish you from this particular Garden, for the ungodly sin of being a self-righteous sanctimonious prick. You can always look for a different garden to spew your agenda. "In the lord's house there are many mansions"... Your choice, although I doubt you really have one. We'll see. For now I am still mildly entertained.

This being said, you are welcome to share your perspectives and personal views as you see them in the subjective light of your own background, upbringing and particular brand of indoctrination, BUT the arrogant preaching, the unsolicited teaching and the judaic superiority complex you will have to leave at the door. There are people here on this forum with equally strong (if not stronger) and determined convictions, and they have been with us for many years. Guess why? They were never preachy or "holier than thou", they never claimed "100% Truth" and they've been actually intellectually developed and emotionally mature enough to be capable to carry out an actual DIALOGUE and to listen to other perspectives without instantly dismissing or marginalizing them. Those who were not able to do so, are no longer with us.


People start defending Jesus while ignoring the actual topic I raise, they can be sure to get whooped. You have my word, the "gay for jesus" crowd will learn to be afraid to defend him in my threads, and not because I troll or just plain nasty, but because I know what I am talking about. They will learn this in time.This already qualifies as a semi-direct threat, so tread carefully.

PS: Do NOT reply to this post. Debating/arguing administrative posts is not allowed here. If you do, it will be deleted and you will be instantly UN-chosen. You have been warned.

Now carry on and play nice.

Saturneus
01-15-2020, 09:15 PM
We have an inside joke here in Alchemy Forums. A joke that has been going on for many years. Basically when a new member utters the phrase "100 % truth" it always has the same ending... they begin flame wars, they begin trolling, they begin thread hijacking and eventually they get banned.

There is nothing wrong in saying 100 % truth per se, but the inside joke is based on historical facts regarding the behaviour of past members no longer here. Basically it is a major red flag.

Ye be warned.

:p

I keep my shenanigans limited to my threads.

People start defending Jesus while ignoring the actual topic I raise, they can be sure to get whooped.

You have my word, the "gay for jesus" crowd will learn to be afraid to defend him in my threads, and not because I troll or just plain nasty, but because I know what I am talking about. They will learn this in time.

Awani
01-15-2020, 09:21 PM
I keep my shenanigans limited to my threads.

People start defending Jesus while ignoring the actual topic I raise, they can be sure to get whooped.

You have my word, the "gay for jesus" crowd will learn to be afraid to defend him in my threads, and not because I troll or just plain nasty, but because I know what I am talking about. They will learn this in time.

No it won’t be limited to your threads. See Andro’s post above.

:p

Awani
01-15-2020, 10:30 PM
Judaism, just like Islam and Christianity, has gone through changes. I wonder if you have ever looked at the historical development of Judaism, because many things considered essential in Judaism didn't at one point in time exist... they evolved. It was normal human beings - usually in power - that made choices and many years later these people were made saints of prophets in order to give their "ideas" more weight.

The Bible is an important text, just as important as the works of Aesop and Dante. With fables and allegories we can gain a lot of wisdom and insight, but to look at them as 100 % factual would be naive and erroneous.

If God's creation was perfect why do Jews have to clip the foreskin? If God is the only God and there are no other Gods, then "how" can he be jealous of other Gods? If there are no other God's why would a being so powerful as God be jealous of things that do not exist? And so on and so fort.

When reading sacred texts we have to do a at least two things:

1. Look at the subtext.
2. Deduct the politics and agenda of the time they were written in.

:p

I wonder if you saw this post.

My point with above post is that there is no such thing as 100 % truth, because truth does not need to be re-written (and Truth can never be 99 %, it's always 100 % if Truth even exists)... and truth does not need people to debate over what should be "law"... truth is truth. Judaism is as weak as all the other religions if you insist on looking at it as the ultimate truth or as literal events and facts.

IMO there is no more truth in the Torah than in Aesop's fables, but there can be an equal amount of wisdom. But wisdom can be seen with different perspectives, and that is why any text can be looked at from many angles. Not one of them being true for everyone, but true for some.

:p

Saturneus
01-15-2020, 10:37 PM
I wonder if you saw this post.

:p

No, I haven't.

Alchemists see the Emerald Tablets as a perfect text, Which is unpacked by the oral traditions of the alchemists who engage in it.
Everything they unpack regarding the Emerald Tablet was already contained in it, they just unpacked it from within it.

Same with Judaism.

The Torah is perfect, and Moses has given us tools that dictate the rules that govern the method of our "oral tradition" which by some is called the Oral Torah.

As Jews migrate around the world, and as the world changes around them, they go back to the Torah and use Moses' rules for oral tradition, and they 'unpack' what the Torah has to say regarding these novelties the world presents.

As for why circumcision and why jealousy.
I can answer if you truly want to know.

Awani
01-15-2020, 10:48 PM
Which is unpacked...

Judaism isn't unpacked. It's packaged.


As for why circumcision and why jealousy. I can answer if you truly want to know.

Why do you keep insisting that people are jealous if they don't agree with "chosen people" or "circumcision" etc.?

Am I jealous of Hitler because I don't agree with his ideas?
Am I jealous of a rapist because I don't agree with the rapists action?

No... I am not. So please, this is not a forum run by 14 year olds. Please answer the question properly or choose to ignore it.

If God's creation is perfect then why ain't boys born without foreskin? Why is God a jealous God? Why is it ok for Moses to be a murderer? Why do you think the Sanhedrin became afraid of Jesus? Because he wasn't the real Messiah, or because they were afraid of loosing their power? I got tons of these...

Why did God allow a Serpent in the Garden?

:p

Saturneus
01-15-2020, 10:51 PM
Judaism isn't unpacked. It's packaged.



Why do you keep insisting that people are jealous if they don't agree with "chosen people" or "circumcision" etc.?

Am I jealous of Hitler because I don't agree with his ideas?
Am I jealous of a rapist because I don't agree with the rapists action?

No... I am not. So please, this is not a forum run by 14 year olds. Please answer the question properly or choose to ignore it.

If God's creation is perfect then why ain't boys born without foreskin. Why is God a jealous God? Why is it ok for Moses to be a murderer?

:p

You do realize I said that if you want to talk about "why jealousy" as in why G-d is jealous if Israel worships other gods, I would answer your questions... right?

Awani
01-15-2020, 10:54 PM
I understand now. I thought you asked if I was jealous, because you asked that before regarding people being jealous that they are "not" the chosen people.

So you choose to ignore these?

If God's creation is perfect then why ain't boys born without foreskin? Why is God a jealous God? Why is it ok for Moses to be a murderer? Why do you think the Sanhedrin became afraid of Jesus? Because he wasn't the real Messiah, or because they were afraid of loosing their power? I got tons of these...

Why did God allow a Serpent in the Garden?

:p

Saturneus
01-15-2020, 10:57 PM
I understand now. I thought you asked if I was jealous, because you asked that before regarding people being jealous that they are "not" the chosen people.

So you choose to ignore these?

If God's creation is perfect then why ain't boys born without foreskin? Why is God a jealous God? Why is it ok for Moses to be a murderer? Why do you think the Sanhedrin became afraid of Jesus? Because he wasn't the real Messiah, or because they were afraid of loosing their power? I got tons of these...

Why did God allow a Serpent in the Garden?

:p

When a person tries to carpet bomb with "difficult" questions, it is a sure sign he is intimidated by a knowledge system he fears he is starting to agree with in opposition with his will to reject it.

Choose one question.
I will answer it.
You'll then choose another question.
I will answer it.
Until I either say I don't know or until you are satisfied with my answers.

Awani
01-15-2020, 11:01 PM
When a person tries to carpet bomb with "difficult" questions, it is a sure sign he is intimidated by a knowledge system he fears he is starting to agree with in opposition with his will to reject it.

Please don't project onto others. You have 0 % knowledge of my knowledge of these topics. Akhenaten, the Sanhedrin, the Bible, the Serpent and such topics are things I've studied in-depth for over 20 years and counting. I am not intimidated at all. I was only wondering, since you claim 100 % truth what your thoughts on those questions were. There is no need to answer.

:p

Saturneus
01-15-2020, 11:04 PM
Please don't project onto others. You have 0 % knowledge of my knowledge of these topics. Akhenaten, the Sanhedrin, the Bible, the Serpent and such topics are things I've studied in-depth for over 20 years and counting. I am not intimidated at all. I was only wondering, since you claim 100 % truth what your thoughts on those questions were. There is no need to answer.

:p

I offered you to ask your questions.
I even admitted there might be the possibility of me not having an answer.

Yet you choose not to accept my offer while leaving me with the tag of 'wise-ass who thinks he is never wrong' on my forehead.

If you do however choose to change your mind, and accept my offer, I think it would be apropriate that it should be done in a new thread as it would steer this thread away from it's topic.

Awani
01-15-2020, 11:05 PM
...while leaving me with the tag of 'wise-ass who thinks he is never wrong' on my forehead...

You create that tag all on your own. Here's some help: watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_cFgbcssc&feature=emb_title) (especially the "fan boys" and "lurk" part)

This is related to this thread: Why did God allow a Serpent in the Garden?

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 11:43 AM
This explains why they became ashamed of their nakedness.
We are ashamed to be naked because we fear we would not be attractive in the eyes of another, or perhaps we fear we would be even too attractive (We all have our own problems to deal with, eh)
This realization is intimately connected with sex.
Once we realize there is good and evil, we realize that we are desired sexually if we are good in the eyes of another.
We don't want to perceived as bad, so we cover ourselves.

Go tell tribal groups and swinger groups that. Or for that fact every nude beach in Sweden. I think you will find that not everyone carries this shame, only those that have been brainwashed by their parents/society. Also common for shroom eating hippies to - when the weather is good - walk around butt naked.

I personally dislike being naked but only for the reason I don’t like being cold (don’t live in the Amazon) and also even if I did live in a warmer climate I would still wear underwear. Not out of shame. I would because it would feel more safe. No one wants their dick to be scratched by sticks and stones. Not a pun.

:p

Andro
01-16-2020, 11:55 AM
I personally dislike being naked but only for the reason I don’t like being cold (don’t live in the Amazon) and also even if I did live in a warmer climate I would still wear underwear. Not out of shame. I would because it would feel more safe. No one wants their dick to be scratched by sticks and stones. Not a pun. Not even at a designated nude beach on hot summer days? Not many sticks and stones there... During the warm months, we go to the FKK (nude) beach by one of the Berlin lakes every weekend. All types are there. Older, younger, fat, fit, skinny, males, females... Nobody gives a fuck, people just want to enjoy the sun. No "shame" there... and there are no sexual vibes at all. It's fully packed on weekends... Impossible to find a parking space... So I'd say it's a cultural thing rather than innate. "Shame" is something we are taught, not born with.

Awani
01-16-2020, 11:59 AM
Not even at a designated nude beach on hot summer days? Not many sticks and stones there... During the warm months, we go to the FKK (nude) beach by one of the Berlin lakes every weekend. All types are there. Older, younger, fat, fit, skinny, males, females... Nobody gives a fuck, people just want to enjoy the sun. No "shame" there... and there are no sexual vibes at all. It's fully packed on weekends... Impossible to find a parking space...

I hardly ever go to the beach in Sweden. I'm a bit picky and dislike getting wet unless it's salt water. I also dislike the "this area you can be naked, this area you cannot" or "this area you can smoke, this area you cannot".

But I love my pyjamas too much. Even at home where it's warm and I could be naked, I prefer pyjamas. Not out of shame. Because I enjoy how it feels. It's like having a cozy quilt wrapped around you 24/7. I even use pyjamas going out. Love it. Some socialites would consider going out in pyjamas as a taboo. The shame can even be - for some - certain kinds of clothes. My wife is more the naked type, she feels more free without clothes. Also my daughter. Everyone is different. But shame does not go into the equation.

I could not go to work naked. I'd probably be arrested. It would also be uncomfortable, but that is due to other people and the law more than me.


We are ashamed to be naked because we fear we would not be attractive in the eyes of another, or perhaps we fear we would be even too attractive (We all have our own problems to deal with, eh) This realization is intimately connected with sex.

To claim being naked and sexual attraction is a big thing is BS I think. Sure some get turned on by it, but for the most part I think showing a bit of skin is way more attractive than full on naked i.e. the concept of strippers being so big as well as sexy underwear etc. I don't know how it was in biblical times, but these days being completely naked is not sexually attractive at all (unless it's the end stage of seduction or something).

:p

Andro
01-16-2020, 12:04 PM
shame does not go into the equation.
Which is in fact the whole point of this exchange :)

Andro
01-16-2020, 12:30 PM
Also, don't Orthodox Jews get all fully naked together in the Mikveh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh)?

(men with men & women with women of course, to keep the hetero attraction from occurring and also to keep the ortho-closeted gay dudes happy :p)

Which brings me to: Is Orthodox Jewish nakedness only shameful when the different genders are in the same space?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwBaS6m3q5c


-------------------------------------------------

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 01:06 PM
No one wants their dick to be scratched by sticks and stones. Not a pun.

I could not go to work naked. I'd probably be arrested. It would also be uncomfortable, but that is due to other people and the law more than me.

:p


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PiqCeLEmM

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 03:18 PM
Which brings me to: Is Orthodox Jewish nakedness only shameful when the different genders are in the same space?



-------------------------------------------------

As far as I know, it is "shameful" in all circumstances except for when a husband and wife are in union.

In Mikvah one goes in, there's an undressing room, one undresses, one usually tries to keep to himself, take a quick shower, get in the mikvah, dip in, get out, get dressed and leave.
One usually tries to avoid eye contact and tries to avoid looking at others.
Not going to say there aren't any "locker room" conversations, but they are not the norm.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 03:29 PM
There is no question about the ability to "get used" to being naked and "getting used" to being around naked people.

However, I think it is dishonest to say one feels "normal" in nude beaches.
Never been in one, so you might say I have no authority to speak on the matter, but regardless, people in nude beaches are expected to SUPPRESS sexuality so to maintain the atmosphere of "normality", but truly it is artificial, sexuality is there, it is, however, consciously suppressed because it is demanded by the "law of land" in nude beaches.

However there are nude beaches which are completely the opposite, people flock there specifically for the sexuality that is present in the place.
Couples come there specifically to engage in public sexual acts, swinging and allowing others to fulfil their voyeurism kinks.

It is funny how you guys try to present extreme out of the ordinary cases in order to deny the general and ordinary.

We've been wearing clothes for as long as we remember, and for as long as we can dig up the human past from the soil of history.

Even among tribes they usually do cover the genitalia area, for most of the time, although in a minimalistic faction, and although not in ritualistic cases.
But for most of the time, these tribal people do cover the genitalia.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 03:49 PM
Food for thought.
The author of the OT knew in advance that people would invent Jesus (or turn him into a false Messiah) and then join his story to the OT in an unholy union between the OT and the NT.
So the author of the OT already wrote against Jesus, but in a way that was not evident to the people who tried to use the OT as the foundation for Jesus.

The NT claims Jesus is the Passover Lamb, thus it is proof he is the sacrifice that atones for Israel's sins.

But nothing could be further from the truth.

The Passover Lamb does not atone for sin, it is a ceremony/sacrifice that MOCKS the Egyptian religion.

The Lamb in Egypt was the symbol of Osiris (Osiris in his Jed aspect according to Wiki). The killing of the Lamb and smearing the blood on the doorposts was done as a mockery of the Egyptians.
"Yeah look, we are killing your idol, we are even smearing the blood on our doorposts for you to see... Whatcha gonna do bout it??!"

The thing that saved the Jews is not the atonement of the blood, but the display of courage, G-d saw the Jews don't fear Egyptian retribution. This display of trust in G-d, over a fear of Egyptian retribution, is what caused G-d to pass over Jewish houses and not kill their firstborns.

So, the auther of the NT, unknowingly turned Jesus into Osiris, and unknowingly justified the rejection of Jesus by the Jews.

"May his blood be on our hands, and our children's hands forever and ever."
Just replace "hands" with doorposts.
And you get Jews, killing the idol of Christianity in mockery of Christians.

Osiris was the idol of Egypt, a slave empire.
Jesus is the idol of Rome, a slave empire.

It's the same story.

Messiah will say onto Caesar - Let my people go.

Awani
01-16-2020, 03:53 PM
However there are nude beaches which are completely the opposite, people flock there specifically for the sexuality that is present in the place.
Couples come there specifically to engage in public sexual acts, swinging and allowing others to fulfil their voyeurism kinks. .

Based on my experience you have no clue what you are talking about and you are totally incorrect. They don' t need to suppress shit. As for "public sexual acts" they occur also, but those people would not be allowed in a nude beach. In fact they would be arrested. There are children there and most people dislike having small children around when you're fucking, usually because it's a sign of being a bit of a pedophile. Something the men in the Torah had little problem with. Pedophilia was rampant.


It is funny how you guys try to present extreme out of the ordinary cases in order to deny the general and ordinary.

It's more funny how you pick and choose. You don't behave like someone who has deep knowledge about a topic, you behave like a "fan boy" - which is totally different. For instance we have members here that have deep knowledge about certain topics, but I never get the "brainwashed" impression from them - mainly because they don't present their knowledge in the manner you do. Perhaps it's a language issue or perhaps not familiar with forum etiquette, but you will get a better response if you present your ideas in a more humble manner.


Even among tribes they usually do cover the genitalia area, for most of the time, although in a minimalistic faction, and although not in ritualistic cases.
But for most of the time, these tribal people do cover the genitalia.

Yes, and so would you if you sat on the ground in the Amazon with all those ants. It's not practical to have your dick flopping around when you are hunting either. But trust me when I say they are not "in shame" and they can walk around naked if they wish to do so. Of course not everyone is the same.

The more you speak about the shame of sexuality, the suppression of sexuality and the strange views about nude beaches (that are sexually the most boring place on Earth) I get the feeling that you might have som sexual suppression of your own (based on what you write). Personally I don't think that is healthy. Catholic priests were sexually suppressed and see what they usually get up to.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:01 PM
Based on my experience you have no clue what you are talking about and you are totally incorrect. They don' t need to suppress shit. As for "public sexual acts" they occur also, but those people would not be allowed in a nude beach. In fact they would be arrested. There are children there and most people dislike having small children around when you're fucking, usually because it's a sign of being a bit of a pedophile. Something the men in the Torah had little problem with. Pedophilia was rampant.



It's more funny how you pick and choose. You don't behave like someone who has deep knowledge about a topic, you behave like a "fan boy" - which is totally different. For instance we have members here that have deep knowledge about certain topics, but I never get the "brainwashed" impression from them - mainly because they don't present their knowledge in the manner you do. Perhaps it's a language issue or perhaps not familiar with forum etiquette, but you will get a better response if you present your ideas in a more humble manner.



Yes, and so would you if you sat on the ground in the Amazon with all those ants. It's not practical to have your dick flopping around when you are hunting either. But trust me when I say they are not "in shame" and they can walk around naked if they wish to do so. Of course not everyone is the same.

The more you speak about the shame of sexuality, the suppression of sexuality and the strange views about nude beaches (that are sexually the most borning place on Earth) I get the feeling that you might have som sexual suppression of your own (based on what you write). Personally I don't think that is healthy. Catholic priests were sexually suppressed and see what they usually get up to.

:p

Yeah...

So you just admitted. Nude beaches are filled with a sexual vibe that is forcefully suppressed via a conscious effort due to the "law of the land" that demands that suppression.

Ants are the reason they cover their peepees, magical ants that fly directly at one's nether regions without having to climb up the legs, so yeah, no need to cover the legs.

You are bending reality with word wizardry right now trying to deny the self-evident truth.

I don't think you actually believe the nonsense you are saying, but for you it is just a point you want to engage me on as an attempt to attack the general concept I stand for. A concept you failed attacking thus far.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:08 PM
Jesus was a man with a good message for humanity. A message most Christians fail to adhere too, and it's a message that requires its follower to have som big fucking balls. If people in Israel, and people in Palestine, would follow Jesus message they would have to forgive each other. Imagine that. How nice it would be. Too bad they are too immature to go down that route.

If we also insert the true Jesus that appears in the Apocrypha the message becomes even more revolutionary and spectacular. However Jesus message is not something that is suitable for any regime that wants power; that includes present day governments, the Roman Empire and Judaism and so on. They can use Jesus in various ways for their on egotistical benefit, but none really follow the core message.

The Sanhedrin that wanted Jesus gone did not interpert the OT correctly, they were power hungry gredy cunts and nothing more.

:p

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 04:08 PM
Catholic priests were sexually suppressed and see what they usually get up to.

:p

Some are in relationships with adults (homo: often other priests or monks, or hetero: often their housekeepers), most stick to their celibacy and some have an affection for children, which, when it comes to any kind of abuse must be rejected and punished just like when anybody else of the society did this.

Of course some of these cases are more present in media than others, which doesn't mean they are more usual.

Therefore I'd be interested which version you consider as "usual".

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:11 PM
Jesus was a man with a good message for humanity. A message most Christians fail to adhere too, and it's a message that requires its follower to have som big fucking balls. If people in Israel and people in Palestine would follow Jesus message they would have to forgive each other. Imagine that. How nice it would be.

If we also insert the true Jesus that appears in the Apdochrypa the message becomes even more revolutionary and spectacular. However Jesus message is not something that is suitable for any regime that wants power; that includes present day governments, the Roman Empire and Judaism and so on. They can use Jesus in various ways, but none really follow the core message.

:p

Or maybe his message postponed the rectification of Earth for almost 2000 years.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:14 PM
BTW, you completely ignored what I just presented.

Here's why you did that.

You have no way around it.
But you like Jesus for some reason.
But you don't want to deal with this, because it is indeed a blow to Jesus' epistemology.
Like yeah yeah, you see him as in independent ascendent master or whatever, a spiritual guide blah blah horseshit like that.

But still, even you are aware it is a HUGE blow to his credibility, a huge blow to everything that stands upon Jesus, to know that the OT upon which Jesus stands, actually presents him as the end time villan.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:15 PM
Or maybe his message postponed the rectification of Earth for almost 2000 years.

If G-d doesn't agree with Jesus message he can go fuck himself, and I would personally rape him in the afterlife. I am not a Christian, but I still think Jesus message (and similar messages from other teachers around the world) is a good message that humanity would be wise to follow.

Perhaps if the Sanhedrin had not been so blood thirsty things would be different. What did the murderer Moses say about murder anyway?

It's hypocricy at the highest level.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:19 PM
If G-d doesn't agree with Jesus message he can go fuck himself, and I would personally rape him in the afterlife. I am not a Christian, but I still think Jesus message (and similar messages from other teachers around the world) is a good message that humanity would be wise to follow.

Perhaps if the Sanhedrin had not been so blood thirsty things would be different. What did the murderer Moses say about murder anyway?

It's hypocricy at the highest level.

:p

Oh did I hurt your feelings?

Should I call a waaaambulance?

Read "The Tree and the Snake".

You are a living proof that thread is spot on.

Dismissing the scale of Truth and Falsehood to sustain a belief in something you SUBJECTIVELY perceive as good.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:21 PM
So you just admitted. Nude beaches are filled with a sexual vibe that is forcefully suppressed via a conscious effort due to the "law of the land" that demands that suppression..

I never said any such thing. Are you working for Fox News or CNN considering they way you put words in peoples mouths?


Ants are the reason they cover their peepees, magical ants that fly directly at one's nether regions without having to climb up the legs, so yeah, no need to cover the legs. You are bending reality with word wizardry right now trying to deny the self-evident truth. I don't think you actually believe the nonsense you are saying, but for you it is just a point you want to engage me on as an attempt to attack the general concept I stand for. A concept you failed attacking thus far.

How many times and how long have you ever spent in the rainforest with tribal people?


I don't think you actually believe the nonsense you are saying...

On the flip side I do think you belive everything about what you say, because someone told you so. I've seen religious brainwashing many times and it always behaves in the same way.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:22 PM
Therefore I'd be interested which version you consider as "usual".

The rape of boys.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:26 PM
They don' t need to suppress shit. As for "public sexual acts" they occur also, but those people would not be allowed in a nude beach. In fact they would be arrested. There are children there and most people dislike having small children around when you're fucking, usually because it's a sign of being a bit of a pedophile.




:p

Saying a thing and its opposite in the same sentence... Kudos.

You just admitted whether you like it or not.
That nude beaches do contain in them sexual vibe which is consciously suppressed due to the "law of the land" in nude beaches.

You also deny the reality of specific nude beaches who are well known for their sexual "freedom", to which people flock specificall to engage in sexual acts, swinging and voyeurism.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:28 PM
Oh did I hurt your feelings?

Should I call a waaaambulance?

Read "The Tree and the Snake".

You are a living proof that thread is spot on.

Dismissing the scale of Truth and Falsehood to sustain a belief in something you SUBJECTIVELY perceive as good.

Have you seen my signature? Do you think I have joker with psychopathic and anarchistic tendencies (light and dark) as a profile image for no reason at all... do you think such a individual would get their feelings hurt when reading words written by an individual that views tradition as the core of his being? LOL. It doesn't affect me one bit.

What did the murderer Moses say about murder anyway?

:p

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 04:30 PM
The rape of boys.

:p

It's something I also reject very much, but that is definately not usual among catholic priests. Not saying that it don't happen! But it happens more often within families and also in schools, sport teams and other groups of believe systems.

Unless you don't come up with some checkable data, I'd wish you would stop claiming such things. In doing this you are not better than most of the people you are accusing. Especially those who spread the so-called "Fake-News".

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:33 PM
Saying a thing and its opposite in the same sentence... Kudos.

You just admitted whether you like it or not.
That nude beaches do contain in them sexual vibe which is consciously suppressed due to the "law of the land" in nude beaches.

You also deny the reality of specific nude beaches who are well known for their sexual "freedom", to which people flock specificall to engage in sexual acts, swinging and voyeurism.

I said public sexual acts occur but NOT at nude beaches. I've fucked in a park once. And?

Sure there are sex clubs and such things. So what? Should be more fucking and less killing IMO.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:33 PM
Have you seen my signature? Do you think I have joker with psychopathic and anarchistic tendencies (light and dark) as a profile image for no reason at all... do you think such a individual would get their feelings hurt when reading words written by an individual that views tradition as the core of his being? LOL. It doesn't affect me one bit.

:p

Is that a deflection? I think it is.

Deflecting away like fairy trilili trilila'ing its way through a fairy forest.

Deflecting away from the core issue - the epistemology of Jesus.

Do you have the balls to discuss the epistemology of Jesus?

Or are you admitting that you don't care about whether it is true or false because it is indeed GOOD (in your eyes) and that's all that matters?

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:37 PM
I said public sexual acts occur but NOT at nude beaches. I've fucked in a park once. And?

Sure there are sex clubs and such things. So what? Should be more fucking and less killing IMO.

:p

It seems you conveniently lost sight of the actual overarching topic under which we are having this discussion.

Do people have sexual feelings because of nudity?

You tried to claim that they don't.
You tried to present nude beaches as your evidence.
But now you are admitting that they do, but they are consciously suppressed because of the "law of the land".

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:37 PM
It's something I also reject very much, but that is definately not usual among catholic priests.

Pedophilia is common enough to discredit and embarass the whole institution of the Catholic Church. It's also fairly common in monarchies and in Elite institutions. It also - of course - happens in normal families as well. No doubt.

Statistically since 1990 there has been one priest accused per month (considering the fact that most rape cases are not reported, 1 in 4 or so, then that means it's a new priest EVERY week for the past 28 years give or take a few. Forget the number of priests a 100 years ago.

The Vatican is one big fucking Rape Corporation. They love it over there. Once you had a young clean shaved butt you simply can't get enough. Factor in all the other atrocities that instiution is behind I'm surprised it still exists. I guess people are sheep.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:39 PM
It seems you conveniently lost sight of the actual overarching topic under which we are having this discussion.

Do people have sexual feelings because of nudity?

You tried to claim that they don't.
You tried to present nude beaches as your evidence.
But now you are admitting that they do, but they are consciously suppressed because of the "law of the land".


People can have quite a lot of clothes in sex clubs. So doesn't have to have any nudity. I personally am not turned on by nudity at all. The reason you are confused is because you have ONE blanket statement for the entire human race. It simply isn't true. Nothing is that black and white.

Discussing with you is like throwing an essay in a shredder.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:43 PM
You don't have the right to speak about deflection. I will try a third time:

What did the murderer Moses say about murder anyway?

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:44 PM
People can have quite a lot of clothes in sex clubs. So doesn't have to have any nudity. I personally am not turned on by nudity at all. The reason you are confused is because you have ONE blanket statement for the entire human race. It simply isn't true. Nothing is that black and white.

Discussing with you is like throwing an essay in a shredder.

:p

"Blanket statement".

Sorry, but blanket statements are not invalidated by the presentation of extreme cases, not in the face of thousands of years of history of clothing, not just in one location but practically in every corner of the world.

Just give it a rest.

One man didn't wake up one morning and convinced all of humanity that they should wear clothes, for reasons they didn't already agree with.
We started wearing clothes due to authentic psychological issues that we have as a species.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:48 PM
We started wearing clothes due to authentic psychological issues that we have as a species.

It can be one reason, at certain times in the past, but certainly not the only reason. Less hair on the body, different weather, fashion and tribal identity... the reason for clothes were many. I personally could care less why. It doesn't matter to me one bit. I don't have any sexual supression or shame or such things to worry about. So keep living your prude existence if you want. The world is a playground, do as you wish as long as you don't force anyone else.

Alright, sure if you believe Earth to be 6000 years old then nothing I say makes sense. But I think it's way older and I also think the Bible is a fable/allegory corrupted by politics.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:48 PM
You don't have the right to speak about deflection. I will try a third time:

What did the murderer Moses say about murder anyway?

:p

Just to put things straight.
I don't see the name "Moses" in the title of the topic.
So... Yeah it is you who is deflecting.

But I am not a coward who juggles between good and evil so he could justify the rejection of truths and acceptance of lies.

So how is Moses a murderer?
You keep saying that, but I don't know what you are talking about?
Are you talking about him killing an Egyptian who was abusing Hebrew slaves?

You are that in love with the allure of Egypt? A cesspool of slaver magicians who built an empire on the back of slaves?

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:51 PM
“You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)

Now, let's discuss Jesus...

“You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)

:p

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 04:53 PM
Statistically since 1990 there has been one priest accused per month (considering the fact that most rape cases are not reported, 1 in 4 or so, then that means it's a new priest EVERY week for the past 28 years give or take a few. Forget the number of priests a 100 years ago.

It's so sad there is even one victim. But even your polished data by far don't support your statement that it would be usual.

On a side note: I guess for the sake of all the whitches, you know the difference between an accusation and a judgement.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:53 PM
It can be one reason, at certain times in the past, but certainly not the only reason. Less hair on the body, different weather, fashion and tribal identity... the reason for clothes were many. I personally could care less why. It doesn't matter to me one bit. I don't have any sexual supression or shame or such things to worry about. So keep living your prude existence if you want. The world is a playground, do as you wish as long as you don't force anyone else.

:p

Now you deny everything you believe in as an "alchemist".

As above so below, as within so without.
Everything is connected.

So no, you can't just do whatever the fuck you want, and say "Oh but I am just keeping to myself, and not huuuurting anyone blah blah blah"
There is no such thing as "Live and let live". It has no basis in reality, it is a word wizardry by the wicked to take a moral high ground and justify their wicked ways.

Because you know damn well that your actions as an individual have a damn effect on the collective.

Again, Juggling between good and evil to accept lies and reject truths.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 04:56 PM
“You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)

Now, let's discuss Jesus...

“You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)

:p

Wait wait wait.

You deflected from Jesus to Moses.
Now you are deflecting from Moses back to Jesus.

No no no...

When did Moses break "Thou shalt not murder" ??

Oh man lol, you are so dishonest.

Awani
01-16-2020, 04:58 PM
Tell me, please, what I believe in as an alchemist? Also tell me why you even think I am an alchemist?

You behave in the most preachy and brainwashed way possible, so it's really a waste of time to counter your other points in above posts. I don't even know why you waste time here? Go kill some sand niggers or something or whatever you Orthodox Jews in Israel get up to in the evening. Use your limited time on this Earth effectively.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:02 PM
It's highly related. That's why.

Oh I see. You could break the law before it was written in Stone? Oh, I see. That's convenient.

But then Caiaphas and his mates demanded Jesus be put to death. By then it was written in stone... oh wait... they didn't physically kill him, an order is not the same as the act? I see. So that means I can kill people with decrees and never break that law? Thanks, good to know.

You're right. The Torah has a perfect message...

...for fascists. :)

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:05 PM
Tell me, please, what I believe in as an alchemist? Also tell me why you even think I am an alchemist?

You behave in the most preachy and brainwashed way possible, so it's really a waste of time to counter your other points in above posts. I don't even know why you waste time here? Go kill some sand niggers or something or whatever you Orthodox Jews in Israel get up to in the evening. Use your limited time on this Earth effectively.

:p

You stood up on your hind legs, trying to deny what I said regarding nudity sexuality and the perception of good and evil.

Now that you are losing, you deny the core premises of Hermeticism, and you are telling me to "go kill sand niggers".

I started these threads to show what the Tanakh has to say regarding the creation of the Stone.
It includes understanding the Stone is attained by the rectification of the collective's consciousness.
It seems that once I went down into a smaller resolution of what's wrong with the collective consciousness, you took that as an attack on your personal way of life.
So you chose to defend your way of life.
Fine...

You can disagree with Torah's instructions on how to build the necessary collective consciousness, you can even try and refute the Torah's instructions.
But don't expect me to just bend over and agree with you.
So when I utterly destroy your arguments... Don't bitch about it.

Andro
01-16-2020, 05:08 PM
Based on my experience you have no clue what you are talking about and you are totally incorrect. They don' t need to suppress shit. Nude beaches [...] are sexually the most boring place on Earth.
So you just admitted. Nude beaches are filled with a sexual vibe that is forcefully suppressed
WTF? Are you listening to yourself? He "admitted" to the EXACT opposite of what you claim he "admitted". But just like Trump's press people, we can trust you to give us the "alternative facts". LOL



It is funny how you guys try to present extreme out of the ordinary cases in order to deny the general and ordinary.

Nude beaches in Western (and I guess also Northern) Europe are quite common. Nothing out of the ordinary. And it's not sexual AT ALL. It's a cultural thing, just like nudist communities in the US. Come see for yourself. The German word for it is FKK, which is short for"Frei Körper Kultur" (meaning "Free Body Culture").I understand you have no experience with this, coming from a sexually repressed culture, etc... It's OK, nothing wrong with having one's own cultural framework. But don't project, don't speculate and don't put words in other people's mouths (a.k.a. "trolling"), especially when/if your speculation have no basis in personal experience.

As for sex, people can choose to have it where they want, within legal restrictions. Some prefer it outside, some not. Whatever tickles their fancy. It's also quite common (I guess) for people being at least partially if not fully naked during sex (unless obligated by your religion to stay fully dressed and/or fuck your partner through a hole in the bed-sheet).

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:09 PM
It's highly related. That's why.

Oh I see. You could break the law before it was written in Stone? Oh, I see. That's convenient.

But then Caiaphas and his mates demanded Jesus be put to death. By then it was written in stone... oh wait... they didn't physically kill him, an order is not the same as the act? I see. So that means I can kill people with decrees and never break that law? Thanks, good to know.

You're right. The Torah has a perfect message...

...for fascists. :)

:p

I asked you, and you didn't answer, again you went hiding and cowering behind Jesus.

When did Moses break "Thou shalt not murder"?

Did I say what happened before doesn't count?
I didn't. You said that on my behalf... again being disingenuous.

But still, I don't know what you are referring to, so I politely ask you to tell me what you are talking about.
When did Moses break "Thou shalt not Murder" ?

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:10 PM
It's so sad there is even one victim. But even your polished data by far don't support your statement that it would be usual.

Imagine one employee of X company raping a child. Imagine the #metoo kind of outrage wave that would happen. Now imagine a company creating one rape victim a week for 28 years. Doesn't matter how many employees they have. That company would be "rape company" in 5 minutes as soon as the news broke. But not the Vatican. At least not for most people who give their money to them... they give so much money in fact that they even have the funds to - for decades - pay their way out of "getting caught".

Catholic priests are pedophiles. And if they are not pedophiles I don't even understand why they want to put their good name on that institution considering past events like torture, burnings and such matters. We have a Nazi Party here where I live. I could never join their board of directors because I would be branded a Nazi in no time...

I have no shame and no problem in doing a Shame Pride on behalf of the Catholic Church. They deserve it. Doesn't matter what saintly man they put in charge. That institution should receive the same fate as institutions that sold slaves or killed Jews.

If the Catholic Church allowed priests to have sex I can almost guarantee that the level of pedophilia that occured would be way less. Supression is never healthy. That doesn't mean a vow of celibacy is bad. I've done that in the past many times. But a personal vow is different than an enforced law from above. IMO.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:12 PM
Also, you seem to think that I believe the events of the NT actually happened, so you think I should feel the need to defend the behavior of the Jews in the NT.

No, I don't believe the NT authentically and genuinely narrates historical events that I should defend and make excuses for.

Befor you go all double standard on me and try to claim that the OT doesn't narrate historical events.
Well, I believe it does, which is why I do feel obligated to defend it should you have any accusations.

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 05:16 PM
Awani, what you are doing here is sum up all members of a certain group, put them in one pot, accuse them of the worst things possible and claim they would be all the same without even wanting to have a closer look at the individuals.

Do you know any time or place whenever doing this was a good idea?

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:17 PM
I believe it does, which is why I do feel obligated to defend it should you have any accusations.

Ok, well then have fun with that.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:18 PM
Ok, well then have fun with that.

:p

So, you made an accusation, I rose up to defend against it.
You leave.

Truth is obviously not one of your concerns.

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:19 PM
Imagine if there is a group that is famously homophobic. Now I join that group, and I don't even agree with homophobia. Suddenly people call me a homophobic. Well in that case I've made my own bed.

I agree that it's not good to put lots of people in the same pot, but I'll allow the contradiciton in the case of the Vatican. :)

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:24 PM
I'm interested in many peoples truths, and I am interested in my own truth. Your truth however is not something I'll waste time on. I'm sure others will.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:27 PM
Imagine if there is a group that is famously homophobic. Now I join that group, and I don't even agree with homophobia. Suddenly people call me a homophobic. Well in that case I've made my own bed.

I agree that it's not good to put lots of people in the same pot, but I'll allow the contradiciton in the case of the Vatican. :)

:p

As much as I despise the Vatican, the pedophilic behavior of individuals within the church is not a point I use for attacks against the Vatican.
I may attack it on the institutionalized facilitation of pedophilic behavior such as "dont ask dont tell" and the relocation of priests to new places so they could keep doing what they do until they are caught again.

BTW I hate the Vatican mainly because it is the seat of the yet living Roman Empire which Judaism as a mission to destroy. It is the final iteration of Egypt.
Once we destroy the Vatican it would signal the start of the Messianic era.

Florius Frammel
01-16-2020, 05:29 PM
Imagine if there is a group that is famously homophobic. Now I join that group, and I don't even agree with homophobia. Suddenly people call me a homophobic. Well in that case I've made my own bed.

:p

I can get that.
I also only recently learned that not all viewpoints of the catholic church are the same everywhere. Though officially the only authorities sit in Rome, there are also a lot more liberal and progressive branches (even in such fragile topics like homosexuality), especially in the area where I live.

Thus my image of that church is completly different to the image most other people might have. If I only had access to the informations of the hardliners, then based on your informations and experiences, I'd probably think in a similar way.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:31 PM
I'm interested in many peoples truths, and I am interested in my own truth. Your truth however is not something I'll waste time on. I'm sure others will.

:p

That's fine.

But you have the tendency of caring for what I have to say disagree with it, accuse the source of it, but when you start losing, you leave.
You don't just leave, but you try to change the past and say "Well... I never did care anyway."

Zoas claimed that Plato also spoken about what the Kabbalah describes.
I didn't like it.
I said I hate Greek language.
I admitted I hate the Greek way of conveying philosophy.
I admitted I hate it perhaps because it is out of my league (Kinda like saying it's my fault for being too stupid)
And I admitted that Zoas was correct and maybe I was wrong.

Why?
Because I aspire to have Mochin De'Gadlut.
Truth is truth, even if I don't like it.

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:38 PM
I don't feel like I'm loosing anything. That's in your mind.

Don't pretend you accept truth that goes against your beliefs. Your 126 posts in 24 hours say otherwise.

Imagine what you want about me. I'm bored as this is totally pointless. And if something doesn't provide me with new insight or a change of perspective or with inspiration, then I turn my attention elsewhere. The main reason why I engaged with you was because of your annoying tendency to "preach" or claim "100 %", and I'm simply allergic to that.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:43 PM
I can get that.

I get your view point as well, and I somewhat agree with it. But I simply have an allergy towards that institution at the core of my being, so I simply can't help myself. One positive thing about the Catholic Church are the buildings they've made. I love those. Wish people built more structures like that these days.

Regarding the war between Judaism and the Vatican I hope they take each other out. Two birds with one stone... but as reality would have it the wealthy Vatican and the wealthy Israelites are probably in business together. Any "hatred" or "conflict" between the two is just a play for the masses. Money talks, integrity better shut the fuck up. Just how it goes.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:44 PM
I don't feel like I'm loosing anything. That's in your mind.

Don't pretend you accept truth that goes against your beliefs. Your 126 posts in 24 hours say otherwise.

Imagine what you want about me. I'm bored as this is totally pointless. And if something doesn't provide me with new insight or a change of perspective or with inspiration, then I turn my attention elsewhere. The main reason why I engaged with you was because of your annoying tendency to "preach" or claim "100 %", and I'm simply allergic to that.

:p

Are you painting a reality in which I claim something, you disagree, and I say "Trust me, I know what I am talking about, believe me, just accept what I have to say."

Because that's not the reality.

I never shied away from defending my claims against attempts to refute my claims.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:47 PM
and the wealthy Israelites are probably in business together. Any "hatred" or "conflict" between the two is just a play for the masses. Money talks, integrity better shut the fuck up. Just how it goes.

:p

We call them "Erev Rav"

Sadly, Orthodox Judaism is a minority, and it the Erev Rav that is in control of the steering wheel of what could be considered a general body of an "Israelite Nation".

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:52 PM
I see. They are not "real" Jews... you can call me jealous all you want... but I am not jealous, but you will call me that - as you have in the past - when I say the following:

Group mentality (group patriotism/nationalism) is for retards.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 05:54 PM
Whatever floats your boat.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 05:58 PM
I see. They are not "real" Jews... you can call me jealous all you want... but I am not jealous, but you will call me that - as you have in the past - when I say the following:

Group mentality is for retards.

:p

I don't see what's the connection between how we view Erev Rav, and between me saying few days ago that one of the reasons for antisemitism is subconscious jealousy due to Judaism's claim that it is chosen by G-d.

Also, might one say we consider them not "real Jews" but more a better description would be that we consider them blood of our blood flesh of our flesh brothers who abandoned Judaism due to the delusions and promises of other systems.
So really, according to strict Halacha view, they would be considered as Jews who are just criminals according to Jewish law.

It's really the story of Hannuka and the Second Temple Era.

The war between traditionalist Jews and Hellenistic Jews, Between the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Actually, the latter is so interesting because the Sadducees had the power since they were protected by the Roman occupation, while the Pharisees had the support of the actually general population.

Awani
01-16-2020, 06:02 PM
Because when I say that "group mentality is for retards" as in "the chosen people" are retards... then you would probably call me jealous, because you did so in the past.


...one of the reasons for antisemitism is subconscious jealousy due to Judaism's claim that it is chosen by G-d.

If the arrogance is on this level amongst all orthodox jews past and present then I'm beginning to have a different understanding of Hitlers choices. LOL.

Thanks for playing.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 06:06 PM
Because when I say that "group mentality is for retards" as in "the chosen people" are retards... then you would probably call me jealous, because you did so in the past.

Thanks for playing.

:p

Oh, I see.
Fair enough.

But that's your opinion.

I see the benefits of group mentality by far exceed the drawbacks.

But you see it the other way around.

That's your opinion as opposed to my opinion.

And that's perfectly fine.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 06:15 PM
If the arrogance is on this level amongst all orthodox jews past and present then I'm beginning to have a different understanding of Hitlers choices. LOL.

Thanks for playing.

:p

Do you know what we mean when we claim that we were Chosen?
Chosen for what and why?

Awani
01-16-2020, 06:20 PM
Why don't you just say why instead of making a post asking. Just post what you want to post.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 06:32 PM
Why don't you just say why instead of making a post asking. Just post what you want to post.

:p

That's a shame, again you are afraid to walk the walk, yet talking the talk comes so naturally to you.

Anyway.

Since there is obviously - Truth.
One Truth that encompasses all.
Thus said Truth has one source.
Under said circumstances, all must agree said source is of a divine nature, some call it God.

We can now entertain the idea of a world wherein some people believe and know the truth whereas other believe lies.
Surely it is a description of the world we live in.

The knowledge of truth, by the group that knows the truth, could have been known by means of experiencing the truth in a time when it was self evident.
They preserved the truth by means of tradition and resistance against accepting lies which formulated by people around them.

If one is a romantic at heart, one would believe, that the end of truth is to be revealed no matter the odds against it.

Thus no matter how hard those who believe lies try to attack and accuse those who believe truth. The truth believers still carry the truth.
It is what it is, it is how it is.

So, Jews believe the source of Truth gave them the truth to guard, and spread it to everyone, even if the truth is not liked, because truth is truth even if it isn't liked.
This is the mission Jews believe they were chosen for.
They don't believe that being chosen means they are better or superior, the only thing superior is something they carry - Truth, but as for their own being, there is nothing superior about it.

They also believe that by completing this mission, the whole world would be rectified and restored back to the Edenic state.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 06:39 PM
The Jewish belief is as follows.

Seth carried the truth which he gathered from his father Adam who experienced it when it was self evident.

Seth passed it on to Noah while those who believe lies were spreading.

Noah passed it to Shem, while those who believe lies were spreading even more.

Abraham picked it up, and was chosen by G-d for the mission of restoring Truth its rightful place.

Then Moses received from G-d, the source of Truth, a text, which holographically encodes all the Truth, and a the instructions on how to rectify the world and build Eden again.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 06:43 PM
Frankly, I don't see any other possibility for "adventures" of Truth through time.

That is to say, it could be said that it wasn't the line of Abraham, but another line that had the tradition of Truth.

So ok... some other dude might have been chosen and we would blame the descendants of that other guy for being narcissistic self-centered self-proclaimed chosen.
We would be right where we are now.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:00 PM
Yes but I can say that the Mormons have the truth and that Judaism is a lie. And you can say the opposite. So it can only be an opinion. Just saying "we have the truth" is not good enough. Doesn't mean anything at all.

And there are plenty of groups that have a "truth" that don't consider them chosen at all, but are more egalitarian in their beliefs.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:09 PM
Yes but I can say that the Mormons have the truth and that Judaism is a lie. And you can say the opposite. So it can only be an opinion. Just saying "we have the truth" is not good enough. Doesn't mean anything at all.

And there are plenty of groups that have a "truth" that don't consider them chosen at all, but are more egalitarian in their beliefs.

:p

I never said that claims are not be investigated.

Mormons and all the religions and cults that stem out of the OT are really in a bad situation when it comes to such investigations.

They track their line of truth via the OT.
So it is enough to show the OT rejects their claims.
Regardless of whether the OT is true in it of itself.

That is to say that if the OT is false, Mormonism is surely false.
and if the OT is true, it is enough to show the OT refutes Mormonism in order to show that Mormonism is false.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

As for egalitarian groups who believe they have the truth.
Well, I am sorry, but they de facto claim to be chosen by the truth, to carry it, by virtue of them carrying it.

Even if de jure they deny being chosen, they still de facto claim to be chosen.

Also, I would claim that Judaism is egalitarian as well.
The notion that Jews believe they have rights others don't, is actually a mythos that has been blown out of proportions by those who oppose us.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:11 PM
Also, if you say Mormons have the truth.
You actually say Mormons are those who claim to be "chosen" to carry the truth, which they do actually claim that.
So we are indeed back in square one.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:12 PM
You need it broken done that much? Ok, I will rewrite my initial sentence: Yes but I can say that the X have the truth and that Judaism is a lie. And you can say the opposite. Proves nothing.

Are all people "chosen" to carry out the work? Or is it only the Jews?

Let me know who is included in the mission. Can I become an Orthodox Jewish Priest having no Jewish family members?

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:24 PM
You need it broken done that much? Ok, I will rewrite my initial sentence: Yes but I can say that the X have the truth and that Judaism is a lie. And you can say the opposite. Proves nothing.

Are all people "chosen" to carry out the work? Or is it only the Jews?

Let me know who is included in the mission. Can I become an Orthodox Priest having no Jewish family members?

:p

To which I replied.

" I never said claims are not to be investigated".

This means I am saying that indeed just because a certain group claims to have the truth, doesn't mean it truly has it.

This means my breaking down of the "adventures" of truth through time, resulting in a group that does indeed carry the truth is not a claim for Judaism being said group that carries the truth.
It is only a claim for why it would be possible for Judaism to be that chosen group.
It is only a claim for why a claim of being a chosen group is not one that comes out with some self-centered narcissistic superiority complex.

Those who believe lies, yet forsake their lies and embrace the truth automatically embrace the mindset of the group that carries the truth, thus they join the mission.

No, you wouldn't be able to become a priest.
Most Jews can't become a priest because they are not of the line of Aaron.
Half of Jews can't perform the mission of Jewish women, while the other half can't perform the mission of Jewish women.

So to claim this is then is not egalitarianism is an absurd claim.

Also, why would you even bring an egalitarian nature of group to stand as an indicator for the force of the claim of a group to be the carriers of truth?
Who says the truth is egalitarian in the first place?

It is enough I have demonstrated that all groups who claim to have the truth, de facto claim to be chosen, thus showing that egalitarianism is quite irrelevant.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:29 PM
It is only a claim for why it would be possible for Judaism to be that chosen group.

I agree with that, yet even as a claim I find it ridicious and self-centered. I can claim to be the greatest alchemist that ever lived. To even bother to have the concept of "x being chosen" is dumb in the reality I live in.


Most Jews can't become a priest because they are not of the line of Aaron.

If that is the case it's no better, IMO, than monarchs or nobility. This blood line kind of thinking is a joke.

Egalitarianism is a pretty important aspect in my view, as I don't think anyone is worth more than anyone else. If you want "status" then that should come after actions you've made, not from being pushed out of a certain vagina.

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:34 PM
I agree with that, yet even as a claim I find it ridicious and self-centered. I can claim to be the greatest alchemist that ever lived. To even bother to have that concept is dumb in the reality I live in.



If that is the case it's no better, IMO, than monarchs or nobility. This blood line kind of thinking is a joke.

Egalitarianism is a pretty important aspect in my view, as I don't think anyone is worth more than anyone else. If you want "status" then that should come after actions you've made not from being pushed out of a vagina.

:p

Yeah.

I don't think G-d cared about the line of Aaron when he wiped out rebellious branches of that line.
Neither did he care about the line of David when he wiped out rebellious branches of it.

Heck neither did he care for the "Jewish special status" when he used others to massacre us when we misbehaved.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:35 PM
Yet he says "thou shall not kill".

The OT God is a douchebag.

:p

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:39 PM
“Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. ” - Robert Heinlein

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:40 PM
Yet he says "thou shall not kill".

The OT God is a douchebag.

:p

"Thou shalt not murder"

There's a difference.

Mmmm no, he says that if one misbehaves one is to be punished.

If the Sanhedrin courts don't deal with , crimes committed, according to the manner ordained by the Law (which applies to all), then the Heavenly Court of G-d surely would.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:41 PM
“Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. ” - Robert Heinlein

:p

You mean... as above so below, right?

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:42 PM
"Thou shalt not murder" There's a difference.

Kill. Murder. Massacre. Genocide. Whatever he did it's still more of a sterotypical "Satan" than anything else. Agree to disagree on this point. Worship a fucking psycho if you want to.


You mean... as above so below, right?

So you think God and Man is the same? I thought you said he was "outside" creation. Also I don't think you got the quote. The reason OT God is such a douche is because douchebags invented him.

:p

Andro
01-16-2020, 07:45 PM
out of a vagina.Interestingly, this is how judaism is passed on (if I'm not mistaken). Through the mother's line. One can have a fully jewish father and a fully jewish maternal grandfather, but his or her mother will still not be jewish and her offspring won't be either. So if judaism is passed down genetically, it can not be via "regular" DNA, because we all get this DNA from BOTH parents. This leaves the possibility/theory that judaism is "passed" through mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which we all, without exception, receive ONLY from the mother's side. Now, how exactly a religion is passed on by birthright is a mystery to me. Genetically passed "chosen-ness" is just as ridiculous IMO as the "divine right to rule of kings" (by birth alone), which is how monarchies operate.

Also, it seems like the Ashkenazi jews are all converts and not true descendants of the original alleged "chosen people" bloodlines. I haven't researched this too deeply, but there is some evidence (https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-ashkenazis-derive-from-euro-women-1.5348602) for that.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:48 PM
Maybe its Midi-chlorians (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian/Legends)? :)

Also I always thought that term to be weird: AshkeNazi (even has the word "ash" in it... freaky)

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:49 PM
Interestingly, this is how judaism is passed on (if I'm not mistaken). Through the mother's line. One can have a fully jewish father and a fully jewish maternal grandfather, but his or her mother will still not be jewish and her offspring won't be either. So if judaism is passed down genetically, it can not be via "regular" DNA, because we all get this DNA from BOTH parents. This leaves the possibility/theory that judaism is "passed" through mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which we all, without exception, receive ONLY from the mother's side. Now, how exactly a religion is passed on by birthright is a mystery to me. Genetically passed "chosen-ness" is just as ridiculous IMO as the "divine right to rule of kings" (by birth alone), which is how monarchies operate.

Also, it seems like the Ashkenazi jews are all converts. I haven't researched this too deeply, but there is some evidence (https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-ashkenazis-derive-from-euro-women-1.5348602) for that.

You forget that according to Judaism, conversion = becoming 100% Jewish.

King David's grandmother was born a none Jew, she converted.
Her great-grandson became the proginerator of Kings.

So a person converting may marry a Jewish woman, their child will be Jewish.
A converting woman may marry a Jewish man... No matter who she conceives from, her child will be Jewish.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:52 PM
Maybe its Midi-chlorians (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian/Legends)? :)

Also I always thought that term to be weird: AshkeNazi (even has the word "ash" in it... freaky)

:p

Ashkenaz is the name of one of Japheth's sons (or grandsons)
It also became to be the name of the area of Germany.
So they named themselves after the area they settled in.

Ashkenazi Jews carry distinct Middle Eastern DNA common with the greater body of Jewry.

Awani
01-16-2020, 07:52 PM
What about two men that convert to Judaism, marry and adopt a child. Will the child be Jewish?

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 07:58 PM
What about two men that convert to Judaism, marry and adopt a child. Will the child be Jewish?

:p

They would have to hide the fact that they are gay if the wish to convert.
Jewish conversion is applying for citizenship of the greater body of Jewry.

If they manage to hide it and be approved by the Rabbinic authorities, they would find no legitimate Orthodox Rabbi that would agree to conduct marriage rites for them.

If there was an actual Jewish sovereignty able to enforce Jewish law, these two would have been dealt with according to Jewish law.

Andro
01-16-2020, 08:02 PM
If there was an actual Jewish sovereignty able to enforce Jewish law, these two would have been dealt with according to Jewish law.
Do you desire to have such an actual jewish sovereignty to enforce jewish law? Who would carry out the stonings?

Awani
01-16-2020, 08:03 PM
If there was an actual Jewish sovereignty able to enforce Jewish law, these two would have been dealt with according to Jewish law.


Do you desire to have such an actual jewish sovereignty to enforce jewish law? Who would carry out the stonings?

If the reply is yes, I wonder if this is the way such law is enforced?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:07 PM
Do you desire to have such an actual jewish sovereignty to enforce jewish law? Who would carry out the stonings?

Jewish law is structured in such a way that a capital punishment verdict is virtually impossible and thus very rare.

It is structured in a way that promotes rectification rather than punishment, and yes a fear element of the consequences of sin is maintained, it must be.

I do wish such a sovereign body existed as it would surely spread wisdom and knowledge that would help rectify the world and restore it to Eden, wherein institutions such a Jewish sovereign body are done away with due to them being internalized.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:11 PM
Once you realize the consciousness of the individual is a product of the collective, you would realize why there could be no other way than to have outwardly institutions that govern the collective.

That's the Prophets mostly criticized the Kings and the Courts and not the individuals among the collective, because they held the key to the rectification of the Individual through their power to govern over the collective.

If one lives in a society whose institutions promote sin, it would be a miracle for him not be wicked, regardless of how hard he tries to change as an individual.

People who deny the above, are foolish and childish in my eyes.

Andro
01-16-2020, 08:13 PM
Jewish law is structured in such a way that a capital punishment verdict is virtually impossible and thus very rare.
How exactly is that, considering the very clear original instructions in the torah?


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
-Leviticus, Chapter 20 verse 13

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:13 PM
@Awani

So you see.
If you want to keep dancing in that state of awareness.

You need governing institutions to elevate the collective to that state of awareness.

So the collective as a whole would be dancing, while the dance itself keeps the dancers in place, thus none dancers don't knock the dancers out of the dance.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:16 PM
How exactly is that, considering the very clear original instruction?


-Leviticus, Chapter 20 verse 13


Yeah, but before a Judge can apply this punishment, he must first prove the sin was committed.

Were there two witnesses?
Do their versions line up perfectly?

The homosexuals would have to be pretty damn stupid to engage in sex in a public location where there are two witnesses.

So you see...

The purpose is to protect the collective and hide the sins from the individual, or hide the sins of corrupt individuals from being witnessed by the collective.

But we live in a society where the collective is encouraged to display its sins, and the individual copies what he sees.
Gay parade are encouraged in the collective stage so other individuals may join in.

Awani
01-16-2020, 08:21 PM
I belive in freedom, love and compassion.
I'm also an anarchist at heart and I don't like governments really.
Finally there are a few things I cannot stand, for example:

If a human being thinks that race matters or that love or sex with a consenting adult regardless of gender is wrong, then that is an individual that still has a lot of growing up to do. I don't want to blow my own horn, but I knew that none of those things mattered or was wrong already when I was a small child.

With that in mind, this will be the last thing I say to thee. Have a good night.

:p

Andro
01-16-2020, 08:22 PM
But strictly following the judaic law, do you admit that if everything goes according to procedure, if there are two witnesses and the guys are found "guilty", a proper jewish court will indeed order and carry out a death sentence? Answer honestly.


Yeah, but before a Judge can apply this punishment, he must first prove the sin was committed.

Were there two witnesses?
Do their versions line up perfectly?
The homosexuals would have to be pretty damn stupid to engage in sex in a public location where there are two witnesses.
So you see...
The purpose is to protect the collective and hide the sins from the individual, or hide the sins of corrupt individuals from being witnessed by the collective.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:26 PM
I belive in freedom, love and compassion.
I'm also an anarchist at heart and I don't like governments really.
Finally there are a few things I cannot stand, for example:

If a human being thinks that race matters or that love or sex with a consenting adult regardless of gender is wrong, then that is an individual that still has a lot of growing up to do. I don't want to blow my own horn, but I knew that none of those things mattered or was wrong already when I was a small child.

With that in mind, this will be the last thing I say to thee. Have a good night.

:p

Torah has anarchic aspirations as it's stated mission is to restore Eden.

But Torah understands it can only be achieved when the sum of individuals within the collective are ready to internalize the essence of the governing institutions, so to make them ready to dance that Edenic anarchical "dance" without knocking each other out of the "dance.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:28 PM
But strictly following the judaic law, do you admit that if everything goes according to procedure, if there are two witnesses and the guys are found "guilty", a proper jewish court will indeed order and carry out a death sentence? Answer honestly.

Yes, I do admit that.

Same applies for when a murderer is convicted of his crime and is put to death, according to a well-conducted procedure.

Now... Is homosexuality a sin worthy of capital punishment?

One would need to ask the Creator of Heaven and Earth who knows how the universe works and what are the true consequences of homosexuality.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:30 PM
So if two homosexuals are sensible enough to engage in thier sin in private, this would be out of the courts hands.

It would be up to G-d to administer justice as he sees fit.

But, the collective wasn't exposed, and there were no individual witnesses to see and copy.

Kibric
01-16-2020, 08:31 PM
Your understanding of how people process negative and positive information is entirely wrong. People are not lemmings, even lemmings don't think like lemmings.
We don't copy others behaviours so simplistically that we just mimic and absorb everything they do.


Gay parade are encouraged in the collective stage so other individuals may join in.
This is frankly so stupid i'm surprised anyone said it.
Its the right to freedom of expression, speech, movement, within a democratic nation.
Not a way to brainwash gayness onto the population.
You lunatic.

Awani
01-16-2020, 08:34 PM
This is frankly so stupid i'm surprised anyone said it.
Its the right to freedom of expression, speech, movement, within a democratic nation.
Not a way to brainwash gayness onto the population.
You lunatic.

I’ve been to many Gay Pride events and I’m still straight. Same goes for a lot of my friends and family. They should improve their tactics more because they don’t seem to convert all of us. LOL.

It is funny that some people think you can convince someone to be gay. You either are or you ain’t. Kind of like having blue eyes... if you don’t have blue eyes I can’t convince you to get some (contacts don’t count).

:p

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:35 PM
Your understanding of how people process negative and positive information is entirely wrong. People are not lemmings, even lemmings don't think like lemmings.
We don't copy others behaviours so simplistically that we just mimic and absorb everything they do.


This is frankly so stupid i'm surprised anyone said it.
Its the right to freedom of expression, speech, movement, within a democratic nation.
Not a way to brainwash gayness onto the population.
You lunatic.

Behavior patterns spread across a collective, even very bad behavior patterns.
Individuals are influenced by the collective they are in.

It is how it is.

All these words about "freedom love acceptance" are just lipstick on a pig.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:38 PM
I’ve been to many Gay Pride events and I’m still straight. Same goes for a lot of my friends and family. They should improve their tactics more because they don’t seem to convert all of us. LOL.

:p

Good for you.
You are an individual who is not influenced when it comes to this particular issue.
There are others who are influenced.
There isn't any shortage of people who decided to undergo sex change because they were exposed to people who had done it, so it made them feel like it was the right choice.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:42 PM
You are trying to focus on whether homosexuality is right or wrong.
It is an excuse so as not to focus on the process of salvation of the individual through the collective and the governing bodies of the collective.
Nice try.

"Live and let live" doesn't work.

Kibric
01-16-2020, 08:43 PM
All these words about "freedom love acceptance" are just lipstick on a pig.
Lol. Tells us all about your character.


Behavior patterns spread across a collective, even very bad behavior patterns.
Individuals are influenced by the collective they are in.


It is how it is.
Source ?. There's no scientific study that proves your statement.
And will never be. Because its a false statement.

Saturneus
01-16-2020, 08:48 PM
Lol. Tells us all about your character.




Source ?. There's no scientific study that proves your statement.
And will never be. Because its a false statement.

I am sure there were many Germans who didn't agree with Nazism at the start, but as it spread across the German collective, many who disagreed at the start, ended up joining the herd.

If you don't think Nazi Germany is a good example of BAD behavior pattern spreading.
Then you can use the same principle and apply it to any other BAD time in history you think is bad.


So when bad behavior is so rampant that it ends up corrupting the institution that is supposed to keep it all in check, that's when cosmic forces intervene and put an end to it, call it G-d, or the allies, I don't care.

Andro
01-16-2020, 09:00 PM
Congratulations. You've openly admitted your convictions, your ideology and your agenda. You've also put the trolling meter in overdrive while at it.

We find such beliefs to be extremely toxic in this forum and we do not endorse belief systems that provide cause for capital punishment for people expressing their individuality in a fully consensual manner. We wish we had a decent and genuine (non-fanatical) Jewish scholar on this forum, with the intellectual and emotional maturity to conduct mutually respectful exchanges.

So this is where we part ways. Besides, you also lied in your application email, so there's that, too... Unfortunately, we're sure you will find other stages to spew your fanatical poison. As long as there are still audiences for stuff like that, humanity still has a long way to go.

שבת שלום ולא להתראות

Kibric
01-16-2020, 09:05 PM
I am sure there were many Germans who didn't agree with Nazism at the start, but as it spread across the German collective, many who disagreed at the start, ended up joining the herd.
No understanding of history. Of what German people went through. On what factually happened during that era.

Andro
01-16-2020, 09:28 PM
No understanding of history. Of what German people went through. On what factually happened during that era.
History is written by the victors and policies are mostly made to superficially please those who scream the loudest, but to really serve those who are not seen.

Too bad it was not possible (at this time) to have a mutually respectful discussion about the more occult teachings of Judaism, but without the fanatical dogma. Personally, I hope that such extreme views are held by a relative minority and do not accurately reflect what most Jews are like today. It's worth mentioning that there is also a strong secular Jewish/Israeli identity... Perhaps it is still in its infancy, but it's happening... I read news from all over the world, and there seem to be a few rainbows slowly forming over dark horizons.

elixirmixer
01-16-2020, 09:31 PM
I'm not sure that it's fully understood here what the Jews are all about.

They have a strict strict strict underlying rule in the culture to NOT change the culture. So it's safe to say that if you start poking and proding any jew about what they believe in regard to sexual freedom and homosexuality, you are always going to hear the same response. Remember, it is literally against their religion to practise sexual freedom, and it is against their culture, to change their religion for any reason at all, even less to change it because of swings in culture norms.

The guy had a lot of really great, solid kaballah to share, and was WILLING to share it (a strange and rare quality of most kaballist authors, who usually write entire volumes without ever revealing the true meaning of kaballah, aka don't spill the seed ect..) sigh....

Oh well. Shit happens. Just making the poi t that if you don't want people sharing views about conservative sexual preferences, you may as well just stick a big sign o the front door saying (NO JEWS OVER 35)

Andro
01-16-2020, 09:44 PM
if you don't want people sharing views about conservative sexual preferences, you may as well just stick a big sign o the front door saying (NO JEWS OVER 35)
That's not what this was all about, not entirely. And we will not be having this discussion.

I have met and had friendly discussions with a few really "hardcore" Jewish Kabbalists in person, people with AMAZING knowledge, depth and clarity, and they were nothing like that. The Kabbala goes MUCH deeper in multiple far-reaching layers of meaning than what was brought up here recently. Nuff said. Keep searching for your truth... and mind your spelling :)

microwatt
01-16-2020, 09:48 PM
sad to see saturneus go. I wanted to have a private discussion with him.

Andro
01-16-2020, 10:13 PM
sad to see saturneus go. I wanted to have a private discussion with him.
"Carpe Diem" next time. And we don't further discuss bans on this forum after they occur.

Anyway...

My personal conclusion from today's events is that I would prefer not to have people on this forum who literally adhere to belief systems that involve executing people for expressing their individuality in a consensual manner and who are not hurting others while doing so (*not talking about butt-hurt). Same with people who believe they are "chosen" by some supreme entity for whatever reason and therefore they have the "truth". It's 2020 and we still get glimpses of the dark ages... In my personal view, we at Alchemy Forums should be a beacon of harmoniously merging the best parts of our past and our traditions with a future that is devoid of the suffering humans have been consistently inflicting upon each other because of their "true" beliefs.

Awani
01-16-2020, 11:06 PM
...if you don't want people sharing views about conservative sexual preferences...

"I think homosexuality is wrong but I don't care what people do as long as they don't bother me."
"I think homosexuals should be stoned to death."

There is a big difference in above statements. In fact we have had a couple members on the forum that wasn't pro-gay at all and some are still around... and some have even changed their opinion once they understand the concept of being gay. That's called being mature. Those that have the latter attitude never last long.

If you come to my house and you respectfully say that you don't like Turkey I will still be respectful in return, but if you say you think Turks should be "stoned to death" then you are indirectly making threats towards my wife, and thus you will be cast out. If you look at it from this perspective I think you'll understand. :)


My personal conclusion from today's events is that I would prefer not to have people on this forum who literally adhere to belief systems that involve executing people for expressing their individuality in a consensual manner and who are not hurting others while doing so (*not talking about butt-hurt). Same with people who believe they are "chosen" by some supreme entity for whatever reason and therefore they have the "truth". It's 2020 and we still get glimpses of the dark ages... In my personal view, we at Alchemy Forums should be a beacon of harmoniously merging the best parts of our past and our traditions with a future that is devoid of the suffering humans have been consistently inflicting upon each other because of their "true" beliefs.

Also it was only a matter of time before even threads about the IChing would be flooded with stuff about Moses truth and so on. Other than that I also agree with below statement.


We wish we had a decent and genuine (non-fanatical) Jewish scholar on this forum, with the intellectual and emotional maturity to conduct mutually respectful exchanges.

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2012/02/F100729MA03-1024x640.jpg

If anyone wants to continue discussing Saturneus views on Judaism feel free to do so. I personally feel the matter settled.

:p

Dendritic Xylem
01-19-2020, 08:55 PM
I'm not sure that it's fully understood here what the Jews are all about.
Indeed. Not to beat a dead horse, but I'll just leave this here...

https://www.amazon.com/You-Gentiles-Maurice-Samuel/dp/1366841948


Written in 1924, this shocking classic work of Jewish Supremacism maps out what the avowedly Zionist author saw as the cause of anti-Semitism through the ages: an irreconcilable difference between Jews and all Gentiles, but Europeans in particular. This difference, Samuel argued, was inherent and biological in origin. The author argues that the real point of difference between Jew and Gentile is that the Gentiles follow what he calls the base "triviality" of Gentiles versus the God-like "seriousness" of Jews. This huge psychological difference, Samuel says, is the reason why Jews regard "playful" Gentiles as backward and silly, and why Gentiles will never be able to penetrate the Jewish perception of the world. The book goes on to discuss the main points of difference in behavior between Jews and Gentiles focusing on physical activity, religion, concepts of good and evil, loyalty, science, fair play, and discipline. Maurice spells out why Jews have different attitudes to all these moral and philosophical issues-and why these values are the opposite of those endorsed by Gentiles. Samuel then says that these inherent and unchangeable differences will always make the Jews out to be "destroyers" and the "subverters" of European culture and society.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ERmOpZrKtw



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q90kmUbEv7c

I have no interest in picking sides. I think both sides are embracing unproductive hate for each other and feeding on the ego. But there appears to be a millennia old culture war between the Semitic tribal bloodlines and the Anglo/Saxon/Celtic lineages. This conflict seems to be acknowledged by many academics and intellectuals, but working/middle class people seem to be mostly unaware. What's strange to me is that most people agree that "white supremacists" exist and are a problem...it's a relatively popular phrase in media and western culture. But nobody talks about "jewish supremacists" because even verbalizing the phrase could ruin your reputation by getting you labelled a "Nazi".

Seems like a weird double standard to me. Seems like the invention of the internet is making the masses aware of this double standard, and I think there's a chance people will overreact and give us Hitler 2.0 in response. I also think certain ruling class members love this profound conflict and division within the masses...and use it to their advantage in order to manipulate culture and geopolitics.

Awani
01-19-2020, 09:09 PM
Seems like a weird double standard to me. Seems like the invention of the internet is making the masses aware of this double standard, and I think there's a chance people will overreact and give us Hitler 2.0 in response. I also think certain ruling class members love this profound conflict and division within the masses...and use it to their advantage in order to manipulate culture and geopolitics.

Exactly. There is nothing - these days - more effective in rallying the population together against anti-semitism because "remember Hitler"... and the constant study of WWII in school from when you are 10 to 20 years old, year after year after year.

I get it. It was a shitty war, but it's not the only atrocity that's happened. For instance the situation in Congo has murdered more people in the past few decades than all the Jews combined in WWII. But not one peep about it. Why?

It doesn't serve the agenda. The argument (behind closed doors) go something like this I imagine: "We can't have human rights and independence for a country/people that control 90 % of this planets Coltan. That would mean every time anyone buys electronics Congo (and it's people) would get paid some royalty. That would mean the Congo would become the New Monaco or something. We can't have some brown tribes have that kind of status, not when we (the Western corporate elite) can take it all for free."

Hitler 2.0 is coming, but he won't appear as an individual. In a sense he is already here as an invisible corporate entity that feeds the masses the repeated lies that - when repeated enough - becomes the truth and any war, take-over or exploitation becomes easily accepted. The gay rights, women's rights, environment, ethics, morals and other PC related topics (incl. anti-semitism) becomes a mask these institutions can hide behind. I mean who cares if President X drone kills kids, did you see him walk in last years gay pride supporting gay rights. #ImWithX Etc.

:p

Andro
01-19-2020, 09:43 PM
Interesting fella:

Yeshayahu Leibowitz was an Israeli Orthodox Jewish public intellectual and polymath. He was professor of biochemistry, organic chemistry, and neurophysiology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, as well as a prolific writer on Jewish thought and western philosophy.

He was known for his outspoken views on ethics, religion, and politics. Leibowitz cautioned that the state of Israel and Zionism had become more sacred than Jewish humanist values and controversially went on to describe Israeli conduct in the occupied Palestinian territories as "Judeo-Nazi" in nature, while warning of the dehumanizing effect of the occupation on the victims and the oppressors.

Leibowitz was an Orthodox Jew who held controversial views on the subject of halakha, or Jewish law. He wrote that the sole purpose of religious commandments was to obey God, and not to receive any kind of reward in this world or the world to come. He maintained that the reasons for religious commandments were beyond man's understanding, as well as irrelevant, and any attempt to attribute emotional significance to the performance of mitzvot was misguided and akin to idolatry.

The essence of Leibowitz's religious outlook is that a person's faith is his commitment to obey God, meaning God's commandments, and this has nothing to do with a person's image of God. This must be so because Leibowitz thought that God cannot be described, that God's understanding is not man's understanding, and thus, all the questions asked of God are out of place. Leibowitz claimed that a person's decision to believe in God (in other words: to obey him) defines or describes that person, not God.

Leibowitz believed in the separation of state and religion, and held that mixing the two corrupted faith. He condemned the veneration of Jewish shrines, cynically referring to the Western Wall as the Discotel (a play on the words "discothèque" and "Kotel", a transliterated Hebrew word which literally means "wall", but capitalized refers to the Western Wall).

In contrast to his strict views on some matters, he was liberal on others. On the subject of homosexuality, for example, Leibowitz believed that despite the ban on homosexual relations in Judaism, homosexuals should do their best to remain observant Jews.

In an interview in Haaretz newspaper, Carlo Strenger, who knew Leibowitz personally, stated:

"Because of his provocativeness, it's easy to miss Leibowitz’s profound moral seriousness and the great relevance of his thought today. He is often pigeonholed as belonging to the extreme left, which is a mistake. Leibowitz, never willing to bow to collective pressure, was the most unlikely of combinations: On the one hand he was a libertarian, an extreme form of classical liberalism, and believed that human beings should be free to determine their way of life without any state interference. On the other hand, he was an ultra-Orthodox Jew who insisted that the state and religion must be separated completely to avoid corrupting each other."

Leibowitz repeatedly called for Israelis to refuse to serve in the occupied territories, and warned that Israel was turning its soldiers in to "Judeo-Nazis", writing that if "the law ... can allow the use of torture as a way of getting confessions out of prisoners, then this testifies to a Nazi mentality."

Kibric
01-19-2020, 10:48 PM
Sounds like a great guy.:D