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Cephal
04-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Though I am only about four or five days into my actual start of studying the subject, I have a hypothesis on the existence of energy that I have been compiling for some time before hand. I don't mind being criticized if I am wrong, I just like thinking and processing what I come across.

*Note* Keep in mind that anything said in this thread is of my own personal observation and opinion and that it reflects my belief in existence.

It would appear that as I have noticed, I consider that there are eight stages to the existence of energy that can be classified in roughly four categories in the composition of our physical world: unrefined, refined, ultra-refined and the recycling stage. The ninth stage is the restart of the process. Here is how I present it:

I. Unrefined:
Raw energy
II. Refined:
1. Sub-atomic particles (Protons, neutrons, and electrons.)
2. Atoms
3. Elements
III. Ultra refined:
1. Life
2. Intelligent life
IV. Recycling period:
1. Death (the composition which made up the flesh of life or the elements that are combined to create an object or creature are broken down by timely processes.)
2. Separation of conscious energy from the decaying matter followed by the addition of that energy into what many consider the collective unconsciousness.
3. process repeats and reincarnation takes place for spirits that are required to fulfill a purpose suiting the collective unconsciousness or if they had failed to achieve what they were supposed to do in their previous life. AKA what I consider to be a form of what people consider karma, but not nearly as strict.

My little chart does not necessarily determine that intelligent thought cannot precede life or material existence. I feel it to be perfectly acceptable to recognize that thought and intelligence can precede life and existence. The way I have viewed it is that there is a second development stage of energy that happens alongside the material stage.

Raw energy -> Thought -> Intelligence

It is my personal observation that all thought is an energetic process, which results the same for intelligence. If in my hypothesis that all existence is essentially a refined form of energy to varying extents, it shows as a proper assumption.

An even larger portion of my theory revolves around the existence of what humankind could understand of god. I feel that the material realm is a means of the collective energy moving toward better understanding itself and that life/intelligent life is a method of amplifying that. If the body is separate from the soul, and the mind is the pathway for the two in order to allow a connected development and our subconscious is essentially that foreign conscious that is the soul - Then the body is just a machine that technically computes the data that is gathered by the soul. Another thought I have had is that if the collective energies gather their knowledge of self by moving to a more refined existence, then the more life and intelligent life were to expand - The more powerful the collective would become. However, the same would mean that the collective unconsciousness is more likely to be dis-unified and that power is fragmented.


A planet such as earth is what I would consider a "Power spot" in which a large concentration of intelligent energies take place and have an access point to the greater collective.

Other than that, if such a hypothesis were true, would that not be a key to serving a point that all existence is malleable if you were able to grasp the means to access the greater energies of the collective?

As I said, just a thought. Feel free to comment everyone, I was just a little bored.

Cephal
04-16-2009, 12:19 AM
A planet such as earth is what I would consider a "Power s**t" in which a large concentration of stupid energies take place and have an access point to the greater collective. OR NOT?

It isn't essentially stupid energies. Humankind is not stupid by standard. Humankind has been led to the current state by countless generations of misinformation, suppression, and continued repression by the powers that be in every area of the world. Everyone has great potential.

This is just the way I see it. We are all entitled to our opinions. I suppose you could just call me an optimist or an idealist, but who knows. I could very likely be as wrong as I could be right. My opinion could easily change as I gain more knowledge and experience. That is what makes opinion stand out from fact. Even then... What we consider fact, knowledge , perceptions of reality - It is all a form of opinion in a way. Reality is a perception, and everything within that realm which we consider reality is opinion. We could very well be seeing things different from what is ultimately truth. And I believe we are seeing everything BUT truth, only tasting shreds of that great truth of existence.
(By the way, I do acknowledge that it is a 90 percent chance I am 100 percent wrong about my hypothesis, but it doesn't entirely matter. I'm not aiming to be right because I have no experienced or learned enough to consider - This is an observation, not an absolute.)

Seth-Ra
04-16-2009, 05:13 AM
I think that is an interesting idea, and i look forward to seeing more development on it. ( i for one will like watching it as it "evolves"/"transmutes" as perception of all who put in input force the change.)

That in itself, i think, could be considered a collective transmutation of individual realities. :cool:

Play_Dough
04-16-2009, 06:56 AM
Quote from originating post:

"I. Unrefined: Raw energy " (end quote)..... to refined energy as matter, to consciousness and life. etc., etc.

Your characterizations seem to imply that the raw unrefined energy state 'pre-exists' the 'Refined State' and that the 'unrefined energy' is transformed into a 'refined state'. In other words, that the unrefined state is 'the stuff of matter' at a later stage of development/evolution'.
In fact, I would say that this (above) is a key to your theory/hypothesis.

The hump to get over is the present scientific belief that 'matter cannot be created'. Which seems to contradict your implication that mater exists initially in an 'unrefined state' and then (somehow) coagulates to form refined 'matter'.

This is the place (in the argument) where physics must be trumped by 'metaphysics', because mainstream science does not know how to create matter nor how matter is created. Transformed, yes!, created 'no'!

There is only 1 scientific experiment that claims (with high credibility) to have created 'matter', albeit in an unstable form and for a very brief (nano) duration.
Google search terms: Harvard light to matter.

The way things are now (physics) is that matter can be transformed into energy (E=MC squared) but not, as yet, the other way around. So, you may have to start your theory/hypothesis with 'pre-existing' matter unless you wish to describe an "In The Beginning" scenario.

In metaphysics, magic and (perhaps) spiritual alchemy the universe is a 'magic show' that is responsive to thought.

You may also wish to consult 'the second law of thermodynamics' which is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. (from Wikipedia).

The notion of systems evolving to perfection is somewhat supported by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (by implication). Stuff 'evolving to perfection' is a pillar-belief of alchemy.

An additional consideration is 'the mystery of consciousness'. Mainstrean science has no consensus regarding 'consciousness' and it's originations.
It is a logical fallacy to conclude that consciousness is a by-product of biology. It is 'reasonable' to believe so, but that 'reasonableness' (so far) can not be evolved into a firm logical conclusion. A related Socratic question is, "Is water created by spigot"?.

The 'God' issue.
We can really use a new 'Model of God'. But for analysis of your theory/hypo we are forced to infer 'intelligence'. What then are the 'motivations' of the 'intelligence' that mediates all of your stated processes? (in your original post).

These matters now raises unresolved philosophical issues.

I believe that you may 'steal some fire from the Gods' (ideas) if you start at a hypothetical "In The Beginning"..... pure unrefined energy (?) .... any or no 'matter' ? .... no "Big Bang" (translation - for 'we don't know).

I think that if 'everything material' is cleared from the table then the starting place is 'consciousness'. Then what happened? Did consciousness manifest 'space/time'? and then manifested/created (?) 'unrefined energy' ?

You are starting your theory, it seems, from 'here and now'. Was 'before' identical to the processes of 'here and now'? Does your theory contemplate an 'uncaused cause'?

A second theory (somewhat alchemical) is that we, when looking at the 'universe' are witnessing the primordial ooze from which 'God' will finally emerge (Ta Da!!!). This 2nd theory mirrors ONE alchemical theory but does not address the 'source of matter'... either unrefined or otherwise (?).

What it is (opinion) that you are attempting, is to formulate a "Theory of Everything". That is what you are doing! Very ambitious!

Your theory is 'stuck' at the place where mainstream science is presently stuck, in-so-far as the physics is concerned.

It is my belief that the ultimate answer rests with 'Consciousness'.

.

horticult
04-16-2009, 10:36 AM
There is some several thousands years old archeological relict on which is written "young people today are so rotten that this will be the end...".
Or check biblical mentions about rotten mankind.
And the big collective IS CERTAINLY THE START OF THE END and sages never liked it. beeeee

Aleilius
04-16-2009, 12:29 PM
A very interesting thread!

I believe there are two fundamental forces present. We may call one a light force, and another a dark force. The interaction between these two forces bring about all subsequent manifestations of energy & matter.

These forces manifest two different modes of action. One mode of action is coherence, and another is decoherence. Coherence occurs when light force combines with light force, and likewise when dark force combines with dark force. Decoherence occurs when light force combines with dark force, or dark force combines with light force. Both coherence and decoherence plays a role in the evolution of energy/matter. I do not believe there is such thing as de-evolution. Complexity & novelty will continue to manifest itself via energy/matter so long as this special duality exists.

So how did it begin? Well that's a tough call, but I can assume the beginning started as a differentiation between this singular unified force (light/dark force). The ending will only come about by the recombination of these dual forces. This dual force is the very metaphysical building blocks of energy, and thus in order to bring about the end we'll have to find a way to recombine them. We'll have to go beyond matter & energy in order to make this happen. The beginning and the end are both the same.

I'm merely scratching the surface with this! There's much more than I can possibly imagine at this time.


There is some several thousands years old archeological relict on which is written "young people today are so rotten that this will be the end...".
Or check biblical mentions about rotten mankind.
It's not a question of age. People are rotten, animals are rotten, and reality is rotten. This duality manifests itself in all forms of matter, and that even includes intelligent life forms. What you are seeing is merely the coherence/decoherence effect playing out. Duality is the source of all things rotten.

Cephal
04-16-2009, 02:28 PM
Quote from originating post:

"I. Unrefined: Raw energy " (end quote)..... to refined energy as matter, to consciousness and life. etc., etc.

Your characterizations seem to imply that the raw unrefined energy state 'pre-exists' the 'Refined State' and that the 'unrefined energy' is transformed into a 'refined state'. In other words, that the unrefined state is 'the stuff of matter' at a later stage of development/evolution'.
In fact, I would say that this (above) is a key to your theory/hypothesis.

The hump to get over is the present scientific belief that 'matter cannot be created'. Which seems to contradict your implication that mater exists initially in an 'unrefined state' and then (somehow) coagulates to form refined 'matter'.

This is the place (in the argument) where physics must be trumped by 'metaphysics', because mainstream science does not know how to create matter nor how matter is created. Transformed, yes!, created 'no'!

There is only 1 scientific experiment that claims (with high credibility) to have created 'matter', albeit in an unstable form and for a very brief (nano) duration.
Google search terms: Harvard light to matter.

The way things are now (physics) is that matter can be transformed into energy (E=MC squared) but not, as yet, the other way around. So, you may have to start your theory/hypothesis with 'pre-existing' matter unless you wish to describe an "In The Beginning" scenario.

In metaphysics, magic and (perhaps) spiritual alchemy the universe is a 'magic show' that is responsive to thought.

You may also wish to consult 'the second law of thermodynamics' which is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. (from Wikipedia).

The notion of systems evolving to perfection is somewhat supported by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (by implication). Stuff 'evolving to perfection' is a pillar-belief of alchemy.

An additional consideration is 'the mystery of consciousness'. Mainstrean science has no consensus regarding 'consciousness' and it's originations.
It is a logical fallacy to conclude that consciousness is a by-product of biology. It is 'reasonable' to believe so, but that 'reasonableness' (so far) can not be evolved into a firm logical conclusion. A related Socratic question is, "Is water created by spigot"?.

The 'God' issue.
We can really use a new 'Model of God'. But for analysis of your theory/hypo we are forced to infer 'intelligence'. What then are the 'motivations' of the 'intelligence' that mediates all of your stated processes? (in your original post).

These matters now raises unresolved philosophical issues.

I believe that you may 'steal some fire from the Gods' (ideas) if you start at a hypothetical "In The Beginning"..... pure unrefined energy (?) .... any or no 'matter' ? .... no "Big Bang" (translation - for 'we don't know).

I think that if 'everything material' is cleared from the table then the starting place is 'consciousness'. Then what happened? Did consciousness manifest 'space/time'? and then manifested/created (?) 'unrefined energy' ?

You are starting your theory, it seems, from 'here and now'. Was 'before' identical to the processes of 'here and now'? Does your theory contemplate an 'uncaused cause'?

A second theory (somewhat alchemical) is that we, when looking at the 'universe' are witnessing the primordial ooze from which 'God' will finally emerge (Ta Da!!!). This 2nd theory mirrors ONE alchemical theory but does not address the 'source of matter'... either unrefined or otherwise (?).

What it is (opinion) that you are attempting, is to formulate a "Theory of Everything". That is what you are doing! Very ambitious!

Your theory is 'stuck' at the place where mainstream science is presently stuck, in-so-far as the physics is concerned.

It is my belief that the ultimate answer rests with 'Consciousness'.

.

Interesting way to go about it. As I've said, I have only truly begin my research into all of this, and my post is merely an observation. So I still have a long way to go. However, I still believe energy is of great importance in my observation - though I think consciousness would play an equally important role.


As for your view Aleilius, I'm still looking forward to that PM.

Play_Dough
04-17-2009, 01:12 AM
A very interesting thread!

I believe there are two fundamental forces present. We may call one a light force, and another a dark force. The interaction between these two forces bring about all subsequent manifestations of energy & matter.

These forces manifest two different modes of action. One mode of action is coherence, and another is decoherence. Coherence occurs when light force combines with light force, and likewise when dark force combines with dark force. Decoherence occurs when light force combines with dark force, or dark force combines with light force. Both coherence and decoherence plays a role in the evolution of energy/matter. I do not believe there is such thing as de-evolution. Complexity & novelty will continue to manifest itself via energy/matter so long as this special duality exists.

So how did it begin? Well that's a tough call, but I can assume the beginning started as a differentiation between this singular unified force (light/dark force). The ending will only come about by the recombination of these dual forces. This dual force is the very metaphysical building blocks of energy, and thus in order to bring about the end we'll have to find a way to recombine them. We'll have to go beyond matter & energy in order to make this happen. The beginning and the end are both the same.

I'm merely scratching the surface with this! There's much more than I can possibly imagine at this time.

It's not a question of age. People are rotten, animals are rotten, and reality is rotten. This duality manifests itself in all forms of matter, and that even includes intelligent life forms. What you are seeing is merely the coherence/decoherence effect playing out. Duality is the source of all things rotten.

Aleilius!

Your post is (my opinion) quite profound, in fact, I find it to be 'spectacular'!

My reply reads, in my opinion, like a tightly worded Kantian philosophical argument that tries to avoid stumbling over it's premises (so I beg for indulgences). I am in the process of explaining all of this to myself .

Here is how I have parsed it out (via The Emerald Tablet and 'metaphysics').

There are two levels of observation.

- One is the abstract analysis of your post (as quoted).
It contains (my opinion) elements of ''Coherence" and "DE-coherence" resulting from the mixture of 'light and dark', or more precisely, the introduction of 'dark' into 'light'.
The 'mixture of light and dark' is indicated (to me) by discussing laws of the universe (coherence/light) and then including an observation (now mixed into the coherence) about the existence of 'rotten' things (decoherence/dark).

-----

An alchemical tale ----> In The Beginning... 'The One' observed that the universe is composed of 'pairs of opposites' (a law!) and (secondary observation) that people, etc. are 'rotten'.
The energetic shift is from 'positive' (statement of a law) to 'negative' (rotten). Or, alchemically speaking, the 'coherence' now contains a decoherent contamination (i.e., 'rotten').

If the thoughts of 'The One' are creative (manifestation or the concretization of it's beliefs and thoughts) then we now have two traits of the universe....
i.e., The Law of Pairs - and - the Law of Rotten.
The 'rotten' portion is redundant ('pairs of opposites' implies opposites) and also introduces a negative into a positive, or, restated mixes some decoherence into the pre-existing coherence.

-----

How 'it began' is inconsequential (in my opinion) because the existence of 'pairs of opposites' is a 'law' of the universe. The source or origination of 'laws of the universe' is not, typically, a scientific issue. It is the 'discovery' of the laws that is an emphasis of science and not to discover where the laws (of physics) came from.

-----

Part two - Coherence and Decoherence from the alchemical perspective of 'The Sun and The Moon'.

The Sun = light or creative consciousness, symbolized by 'gold' is uncreated and exists eternally.
The Moon = the 'created', exists 'temporarily' which is eternity minus some duration.
Sun is hand - Moon is glove

In the beginning (or immediately thereafter) there was only 'eternal creative consciousness' and nothing else was, as yet, created. There existed a pure 'coherence' of consciousness that existed without form.

The creative consciousness then created a world by thinking (abstractly) of 'a world'. As a result, a 'pre-fab world' then came into existence . The created 'world' now existed but, otherwise, was ambiguous.

Then the creative-consciousness thought, "I will now enter into this world as a 'person' and, as a result, I will experience the glory of the world. The Sun (creative consciousness) and The Moon (the created), as a result, are now combined in a 'hand in glove matrix of coherence.

The creative-consciousness, now as an occupant of the world, thinks "I have no 'ego-personality' (preferences/expression) so I cannot make any sense of this world". As a result, those thoughts became manifest and the coherent creative consciousness introduced a measure of decoherence into the cosmology.

'The Above' now merged with 'The Below', and with the first 'instruction' being to permit no experience of 'sense' (to not make sense out of...).
The result is an irrational ('makes no sense') experience for the creative consciousness.

The creative consciousness then thinks, "This is a waste of time" and, as a result, 'time' was created as well as the 'waste of time' ( producing an additional seeming 'decoherence').

If the creative consciousness wanted to experience being in a context 'lacking sense' and engaged in the activity of 'wasting time', then there would be perfect coherence.
If the creative consciousness was secretly anticipating a much different result, then the mixture, as described, would contain both coherence and decoherence representing a split of consciousness into opposing (opposite) simultaneous energetics (positive expectations at war with negative descriptions).

As the stream of negativity continues then perhaps the final thought that places the lid on the tomb is, "I can't seem to do anything about this rotten world, I can't seem to leave it nor it's rotten contents". As a result, the creative consciousness abrogates it's power (to annul by an authoritative affirmation) with it's final decree (as stated) and then becomes a prisoner in a world that it created.

Enter 'Alchemy' (to the rescue), the art of subtly extracting (separating) the 'gold' (pure creative consciousness) from the depths of the now utterly decoherent / self-created matrix.

As the alchemical 'rescue and restoration' of the self-diminished/imprisoned consciousness is performed (by itself and upon itself), the consciousness is gradually restored and lifted (back) into 'The Above' and is wiser for having had the miserable experience of entrapment by it's own self-decoherence.

Whew!

.

Seth-Ra
04-17-2009, 04:53 AM
Well that was a neat way to look at it, but perhaps its slightly more simple.

Perhaps the "Pure Creative Consciousness" (God, or you may call it Nature, or the collective) created it all good. (state of refined and ultra refined, as the first thread would categorize them, accordingly.) But then one of the created, (such as man) introduced something new to the equation: death. Hence the life, death and rebirth cycle of alchemy. So as the refined and ultra refined then begin to experience death, from either violence, disease, and even time, the death causing the break down, for them to be unrefined, then the recycling of this unrefined to be re-born as refined or ultra refined.

The life force (whether a collective one such as an animal, or plant, or a solo one such as a bacteria) and its mind would be the "energies" of Above, that recycle to the things they "fertilize" (or feed) (the things of Below) to better the life force of that thing. The "rottenness" of things from this first decline are not a "bad" thing, but rather, the fire that fuels the transformation to perfection. The faster downhill something goes, the less time before it hits a "critical mass", i.e. dies from its rottenness. (once you hit rock bottom, you can only go up.)
The recycling of it then feeds back around into a more peaceful form, and the cycle continues.

The "trick" with the Art of Alchemy, is that our bodies (compiled up of harmonious levels of life force, living in a coherent and "collective" state of being) uses the information/knowledge that is, and its energy of life (and that of the material it works with) to bring about a better change, or a faster change. this works both in the lab, in the mind, and in society.
While the rotten and wicked go off into their destruction, the wise continue to teach and spread Truth, and Wisdom, and though evil tears apart much, NOTHING can kill an ideal. The alchemist(s) steer then, the "collective" life of people toward a better way, i.e. transmute the mindsets over time, until the rottenness/wickedness is gone, and at that point, it has achieved what was lost: all being Refined and Ultra Refined, and the two going into each other in a perfect cycle, as before, but now has learned the lesson of the negative, and also how to conquer it.

with all of that, even as the rotten that die, and recycle back to refined and ultra refined in the beginning do so, perhaps the key thing in alchemy is not just transmute the bodies and energies, as we were doing anyway, but maybe to transmute the concept of "rottenness" into a better concept of pureness, death to re-birth/life. Maybe the Above and Below do not war, but simply interchange, the fire is negative, but transformative, and the 2 are 2, but also 1, and with in the 1 come the 3 (principles), and the 4 (elements) and it all lives, and is part of the 1. (life)


That whole thing kinda hit me outa no where, so i could be way off... i was going to type a much smaller "nod" reply, but this kinda... hit me. lol

Aleilius
04-17-2009, 05:35 AM
Very good obversations from all of you. My post might've been slightly confusing, and so I'll try to explain things a little better.

Light force and dark force: These terms are slightly misleading, but I really don't have a better way of describing them. Both come from the single unified force. One does not exist without the other, and they both possess equal strength. The light force is a reflection of the dark force, and the dark force is a reflection of the light force. Manifestation of energy & matter cannot occur without the coherence/decoherence effect that these polar opposites possess.

The dark force is not rotten, and the light force is not good. Goodness comes about by the coherence of light force & light force, along with dark force and dark force. Rottenness is the decoherence effect of light force & dark force. The decoherence effect results in annihilation and evolution (i.e. transformation) of the energy in question. Decoherence also takes on the same role as death, and could loosely be tied together. When annihilation/decoherence occurs, the energy in question pops out of existence and resumes its original nonpolar state. For reasons unknown, this unified force does not maintain its unity, and immediately differentiates into duality again. So death leads to rebirth, and the cycle continues.

Time is the rate of change at which decoherence occurs. Time began the moment differentiation occurred between this original unified force. Likewise death also began at this moment. All matter and energy races towards annihilation/death, and rebirth. The universe evolves because of this breakdown and reformation. Novelty and metaphysical structure of the information field (I believe the information field owes its existence to coherence) is maintained at the moment of annihilation. This is built upon by the introduction of new energy/matter. There is no loss or devolution, only transformation and evolution.

Alchemy represents the unification of these dual forces. Alchemists accept the light force and the dark force. The light force is purified many times over, and the dark force is purified many times over. Then when we seek to combine these forces together we end up with the most noble child of the light and dark! This must be performed many times over because quite often the unification cannot be maintained. As this process is continued (the marriage) it results in the evolution of the alchemist. We escape death & annihilation when these forces are permanently married together.

Seth-Ra
04-17-2009, 05:45 AM
Very good obversations from all of you. My post might've been slightly confusing, and so I'll try to explain things a little better.

Light force and dark force: These terms are slightly misleading, but I really don't have a better way of describing them. Both come from the single unified force. One does not exist without the other, and they both possess equal strength. The light force is a reflection of the dark force, and the dark force is a reflection of the light force. Manifestation of energy & matter cannot occur without the coherence/decoherence effect that these polar opposites possess.

The dark force is not rotten, and the light force is not good. Goodness comes about by the coherence of light force & light force, along with dark force and dark force. Rottenness is the decoherence effect of light force & dark force. The decoherence effect results in annihilation and evolution (i.e. transformation) of the energy in question. Decoherence also takes on the same role as death, and could loosely be tied together. When annihilation/decoherence occurs, the energy in question pops out of existence and resumes its original nonpolar state. For reasons unknown, this unified force does not maintain its unity, and immediately differentiates into duality again. So death leads to rebirth, and the cycle continues.

Time is the rate of change at which decoherence occurs. Time began the moment differentiation occurred between this original unified force. Likewise death also began at this moment. All matter and energy races towards annihilation/death, and rebirth. The universe evolves because of this breakdown and reformation. Novelty and metaphysical structure of the information field (I believe the information field owes its existence to coherence) is maintained at the moment of annihilation. This is built upon by the introduction of new energy/matter. There is no loss or devolution, only transformation and evolution.

Alchemy represents the unification of these dual forces. Alchemists accept the light force and the dark force. The light force is purified many times over, and the dark force is purified many times over. Then when we seek to combine these forces together we end up with the most noble child of the light and dark! This must be performed many times over because quite often the unification cannot be maintained. As this process is continued (the marriage) it results in the evolution of the alchemist. We escape death & annihilation when these forces are permanently married together.

Truly sounds like the Yin-Yang: black and white holding the opposite with in itself so neither is without the other, and both change into the other; though opposite - also the same, for 1 cant be without the other, yet both held in a single circle, as their unity is key. I like your explanation of it Aleilius. :)

Aleilius
04-17-2009, 05:55 AM
Hey sorry, I edited my post a few times. It might suit you to go back and re-read it! :)

Seth-Ra
04-17-2009, 06:55 AM
indeed you did. With that (and your mention of what you called the "information field") i am going to start a separate thread about a thought ive been having also. It does have to do with my stance on this one, but also is a separate topic within itself.

I really like how this one is going though, getting very interesting indeed. :)

horticult
04-17-2009, 10:27 AM
AM I BLIND OR MY POST WAS AGAIN BRUTALLY CENSORED?!

EVEN DELETED!

I THINK THAT YOU ARE MORE OVERREACTED THAN THAT OTHER BIG ALCHEMIST & MODERATOR!

(Y)

Aleilius
04-17-2009, 10:46 AM
Sorry, I don't remember deleting your post, but the administration log says I did. If I could undelete your post I would, but it's not stored. Please contact me personally about these issues next time. Maybe it's because English isn't your native language, but I've found a few of your posts rather distasteful in their wording. Others have notified me of this issue before.

Please do not mistake my moderation of any of your posts as personal attacks. I feel no need to attack you personally, and I harbor no grudges or anything of the sort against you. You've been with us for a very long time, and we should thank you for continuing to stay with us. I am trying to be a good moderator, but sometimes even WE make mistakes. Hopefully you can take this as an apology.

Cephal
04-17-2009, 11:01 AM
I would post more in this thread of mine, but as I said my presented view was only an observation. I lack formal knowledge in Alchemy and related subjects to expand my view into a larger theory at this time. However, I am working toward improving my knowledge on said subjects, which takes time. I do like all of your theories though, gives me something to think about.

Play_Dough
04-18-2009, 07:31 AM
Well that was a neat way to look at it, but perhaps its slightly more simple.

Perhaps the "Pure Creative Consciousness" (God, or you may call it Nature, or the collective) created it all good. (state of refined and ultra refined, as the first thread would categorize them, accordingly.) But then one of the created, (such as man) introduced something new to the equation: death. Hence the life, death and rebirth cycle of alchemy. So as the refined and ultra refined then begin to experience death, from either violence, disease, and even time, the death causing the break down, for them to be unrefined, then the recycling of this unrefined to be re-born as refined or ultra refined.

The life force (whether a collective one such as an animal, or plant, or a solo one such as a bacteria) and its mind would be the "energies" of Above, that recycle to the things they "fertilize" (or feed) (the things of Below) to better the life force of that thing. The "rottenness" of things from this first decline are not a "bad" thing, but rather, the fire that fuels the transformation to perfection. The faster downhill something goes, the less time before it hits a "critical mass", i.e. dies from its rottenness. (once you hit rock bottom, you can only go up.)
The recycling of it then feeds back around into a more peaceful form, and the cycle continues.

The "trick" with the Art of Alchemy, is that our bodies (compiled up of harmonious levels of life force, living in a coherent and "collective" state of being) uses the information/knowledge that is, and its energy of life (and that of the material it works with) to bring about a better change, or a faster change. this works both in the lab, in the mind, and in society.
While the rotten and wicked go off into their destruction, the wise continue to teach and spread Truth, and Wisdom, and though evil tears apart much, NOTHING can kill an ideal. The alchemist(s) steer then, the "collective" life of people toward a better way, i.e. transmute the mindsets over time, until the rottenness/wickedness is gone, and at that point, it has achieved what was lost: all being Refined and Ultra Refined, and the two going into each other in a perfect cycle, as before, but now has learned the lesson of the negative, and also how to conquer it.

with all of that, even as the rotten that die, and recycle back to refined and ultra refined in the beginning do so, perhaps the key thing in alchemy is not just transmute the bodies and energies, as we were doing anyway, but maybe to transmute the concept of "rottenness" into a better concept of pureness, death to re-birth/life. Maybe the Above and Below do not war, but simply interchange, the fire is negative, but transformative, and the 2 are 2, but also 1, and with in the 1 come the 3 (principles), and the 4 (elements) and it all lives, and is part of the 1. (life)


That whole thing kinda hit me outa no where, so i could be way off... i was going to type a much smaller "nod" reply, but this kinda... hit me. lol

Seth-Ra,

Beautiful !

Regarding 'The good' - Both I and Plato agree with you; and so does The Book of Genesis.
In my post to which you replied I did not wish to introduce any additional variables because my initial emphasis was to get to the coherence-decoherence stuff.
Plato says that everything emanates from "The Form of The All Good".
In trying to 'decode' Plato's comment and make sense of it...... it then occurred to me how 'evil' is in the service of 'the good' because 'evil', and it's consequences, are designed to send you away from 'evil' and back towards the good.
I feel that I solved a paradox!

I do, never-the-less have a 'creation cosmology' which differs from yours.

I believe that what you included in your reply (quoted above) contains many noble and admirable ideas. You described an ideal way of being.

My cosmology is a bit different. My beliefs include a multi-dimensional context which stretches from 'here on Earth' to including 'all that is'.
As I work on myself (alchemy) and succeed then everything good around me is magically enhanced and 'new' good things appear.
i.e., the cappuccino tastes richer, I find great movies, a few new friends, enhanced clarity (obscurity fleeing), things generally flow better....... major success brings new abilities, new understanding, greater kindness, etc., etc.....

But here's the 'twist'........ I do NOT believe that those 'enhancements' were given to me, where I was...... I believe that I was lifted into a slightly higher dimension where 'what is above', now ---- is like that which was in 'the below' (just prior) only, somehow, better!

As a result, I believe that as I continue my alchemy and succeed, then I shall eventually 'arise' to a 'world' that does not need saving!
I do, however, embrace a Taoist teaching, which is.... 'To serve as I go along....... flowing like water unobstructed'. To be Mercurial!

Your reply was not 'off' at all. I found it to be spontaneous inspirational combustion! A most desirable result for an alchemist who is succeeding!
Very well done.

Play_Dough

.

Play_Dough
04-18-2009, 07:55 AM
.
Very good obversations from all of you. My post might've been slightly confusing, and so I'll try to explain things a little better.

Light force and dark force: These terms are slightly misleading, but I really don't have a better way of describing them. Both come from the single unified force. One does not exist without the other, and they both possess equal strength. The light force is a reflection of the dark force, and the dark force is a reflection of the light force. Manifestation of energy & matter cannot occur without the coherence/decoherence effect that these polar opposites possess.

The dark force is not rotten, and the light force is not good. Goodness comes about by the coherence of light force & light force, along with dark force and dark force. Rottenness is the decoherence effect of light force & dark force. The decoherence effect results in annihilation and evolution (i.e. transformation) of the energy in question. Decoherence also takes on the same role as death, and could loosely be tied together. When annihilation/decoherence occurs, the energy in question pops out of existence and resumes its original nonpolar state. For reasons unknown, this unified force does not maintain its unity, and immediately differentiates into duality again. So death leads to rebirth, and the cycle continues.

Time is the rate of change at which decoherence occurs. Time began the moment differentiation occurred between this original unified force. Likewise death also began at this moment. All matter and energy races towards annihilation/death, and rebirth. The universe evolves because of this breakdown and reformation. Novelty and metaphysical structure of the information field (I believe the information field owes its existence to coherence) is maintained at the moment of annihilation. This is built upon by the introduction of new energy/matter. There is no loss or devolution, only transformation and evolution.

Alchemy represents the unification of these dual forces. Alchemists accept the light force and the dark force. The light force is purified many times over, and the dark force is purified many times over. Then when we seek to combine these forces together we end up with the most noble child of the light and dark! This must be performed many times over because quite often the unification cannot be maintained. As this process is continued (the marriage) it results in the evolution of the alchemist. We escape death & annihilation when these forces are permanently married together.

That is brilliant! I understand your philosophy (portion stated) and I can fill in the blanks (in my head) and 'get' the bigger picture (too massive for a post).

My method (same goal different approaches) was/is to train myself (my mind/contents) to cease judging (good/bad) and the wall that existed, in my 'mind', between 'good and bad' began to erode and then crumbled.

I do, never-the-less, give 'good' (light) an eternal advantage over 'the dark force', instead of seeing them as equal. I do so because 'good' feels 'good' and that's a major attraction. I do, nevertheless, understand that both light and dark can manifest with great intensities.

I have, however, found that when I would 'bend' away from the 'light/good' and 'begin plotting the demise of my critics' (as a metaphor :-) ) that my power source would diminish because of a 'flare-up' of 'ego remnants' which then obscured the power flow. I could discern myself as 'descending'..........

We are learning to ride the dragon!

Very good, this is all so very good.

After thought ...... one hour later -

Quote "We escape death & annihilation when these forces are permanently married together." end quote

I understand what you are saying here. Perhaps it's only a difference in the words chosen or just a different take on the matter; not a qualitative difference just different views/beliefs. However, I believe that the 'Alchemical Marriage' or 'Marriage' ...... always is. On every level of imaginable reality (for me) I see the 'marriage' along with the goal of the alchemist, to make it a 'happy marriage'. I do not envision the 'marriage' finally happening but existing eternally whenever 'spirit/consciousness' is expressing.
And, that we escape death and annihilation when these forces are 'blended perfectly' (alchemical mix) and remain that way. With the ironic twist that 'death and annihilation' are what we are presently escaping from! And with the additional irony that it is the 'death and annihilation' of our 'fake I.D.' (the lead) that delivers us to that almost unimaginable level of victory! So, it seems to follow that, IF we are presently in a process of 'rectification' then, at an immediately earlier time, we were 'bad spouses' with a terrible 'alchemical marriage'. So we are now learning 'how to get it right'.

We are becoming more 'coherent' and the mirror-of-reality, that is my 'alchemical spouse', is reflecting that renewed coherency!

.

Play_Dough
04-18-2009, 09:55 AM
I would post more in this thread of mine, but as I said my presented view was only an observation. I lack formal knowledge in Alchemy and related subjects to expand my view into a larger theory at this time. However, I am working toward improving my knowledge on said subjects, which takes time. I do like all of your theories though, gives me something to think about.

Plus, you started (via your thread) one of the more illuminating discussions (the entire thread) in the history of the world!

Aleilius
04-19-2009, 01:35 AM
I do, never-the-less, give 'good' (light) an eternal advantage over 'the dark force', instead of seeing them as equal. I do so because 'good' feels 'good' and that's a major attraction. I do, nevertheless, understand that both light and dark can manifest with great intensities.
The idea is to combine them in equal proportions. If the light force is out of proportion with the dark force then differentiation and inequality will continue. The marriage will never be perfect, and unity cannot exist. We rectify the common light force to obtain the sublime rare light force, and likewise for the dark force. They must be the purest of the pure, the most intense of the intense. The unification yields a product of unimaginable intensity.


I have, however, found that when I would 'bend' away from the 'light/good' and 'begin plotting the demise of my critics' (as a metaphor :-) ) that my power source would diminish because of a 'flare-up' of 'ego remnants' which then obscured the power flow. I could discern myself as 'descending'..........
To descend and ascend at the same time is the goal! These ego remnants are useful. When we accept the light our ego manifests the qualities of the light, but nevertheless still remains. When we accept the dark our manifests the qualities of the dark, but nevertheless still remains. When we accept the light & dark our ego undergoes unification & annihilation. Ego is a product of disproportion.

This practice is very dangerous, and can result in multiple personality disorders & even insanity if not performed with proper care, knowledge, and understanding. I understand that my perspective is very mysterious, but nevertheless it is the truth I feel to be most accurate.

Seth-Ra
04-19-2009, 06:11 AM
Play_Dough,

thank you for your kind words, as i appreciate them, and also further "insight" and "advice" that is given. :)

____
Aleilius,

To ascend and descend at the same time:

Im looking at it as though, instead of only 2 principles, there are 4: Light, and Darkness, and in both of these, is Positive and Negative.

The Positive and Negative are neither Light, nor Darkness, themselves, but it is how the two are worked. Using the Negative to keep yourself humble, and always striving to be better, while using the Positive to keep yourself uplifted, and not taken in by despair. These work for the Light. (Both of these sides can be done at the same time, and you are "ascending & descending" at the same time, but in the sphere of the Light.)

To Use the Positive in a way that makes you prideful, arrogant, self-important, etc..etc.. and the Negative to beat yourself down, and make you feel worthless, and of no importance, always coming short, these all work for the Darkness. (both of these sides can be done at one time, you are still "ascending & descending" but you are doing it in the sphere of Darkness, instead of Light.)

To cause the transmutation (by lab, or by self) you have the Above energies effecting the below matter, an the matter effecting the Above energies, both Positive and Negative coherently operating, but they can do so in a coherent way (Light) or in a de-coherent way (Darkness). The Positive is coherence, and the Negative de-coherence, but the P & N work together to cause an overall coherent transmutation, or a building of good (by breaking down the bad and rebuilding it as good), or can cause a de-coherent transmutation (by breaking down the good and building it back as bad, causing utter ruin).

The shortest way i can put this is: Transmute for the Good. (because to do it for the Bad, is most assuredly another reason why Alchemy is the world's best kept secret.)

The dark heart's of men seek to harness de-coherence as a weapon, i.e. death. But the heart of the sincere Alchemist seeks to harness coherence as an aid, i.e. Life.

It is about the cycle, but the cycle must be for the betterment (coherence), or the cycle falls apart. (de-coherence)
The key in alchemy is not to fall to death, but to turn it into re-birth, but if you transmute for Darkness, then you only bring about death. And if try to for both, then you transmute for nothing (they war against each other, causing the death of both) and your mind splits in two. (which inevitably leads to ruin, one cannot serve two masters, but will love one, and hate the other. ;) )

So, you use Positive (coherence) and Negative (de-coherence) all to create a coherent (Light) Transmutation, to do the opposite is to not create, but to destroy. (Dark Transmutation)


I hope all that made sense. :o :D

Aleilius
04-19-2009, 06:54 AM
The key in alchemy is not to fall to death, but to turn it into re-birth, but if you transmute for Darkness, then you only bring about death. And if try to for both, then you transmute for nothing (they war against each other, causing the death of both) and your mind splits in two. (which inevitably leads to ruin, one cannot serve two masters, but will love one, and hate the other. )
In order to go through rebirth we must succumb to death. The mind is already split in two. Ego is the result of disproportion between these two forces. When they are married in equal quantity this results in unification of the split ego. There is no longer ego, but a state of egoless being - a unified state of being.

To embrace the light and fight against the darkness is bias & ego-laden. To embrace the darkness and fight against the light is also bias & ego-laden. You will never become whole by destroying your other half. We were once unified beings, but our fall manifested because of disproportion.

To understand what is good, and to understand what is bad. Good is not always light, and bad is not always darkness. The apparent duality is false. It is an illusion created by the disproportionate state of our ego.

Alchemy is not about following the teachings of another that has taken the journey. It's about taking the journey yourself. In this process we do "fact checking" of the supposed truths taught by spiritual masters on which religions are based. We must throw out everything we have known as true, and start over from scratch. Instead of following a strict unnatural dogma we follow the natural dogma of nature.

Seth-Ra
04-19-2009, 07:06 AM
In order to go through rebirth we must succumb to death. The mind is already split in two. Ego is the result of disproportion between these two forces. When they are married in equal quantity this results in unification of the split ego. There is no longer ego, but a state of egoless being - a unified state of being.

To embrace the light and fight against the darkness is bias & ego-laden. To embrace the darkness and fight against the light is also bias & ego-laden. You will never become whole by destroying your other half. We were once unified beings, but our fall manifested because of disproportion.

To understand what is good, and to understand what is bad. Good is not always light, and bad is not always darkness. The apparent duality is false. It is an illusion created by the disproportionate state of our ego.

Alchemy is not about following the teachings of another that has taken the journey. It's about taking the journey yourself. In this process we do "fact checking" of the supposed truths taught by spiritual masters on which religions are based.

I agree with you, i think you may not have understood what i was saying. but thats ok. if i can find a better way to explain it, then ill try again, until then... i guess "think on it" would be a good way to go about it. :)

Aleilius
04-19-2009, 07:09 AM
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I will think on it. :)

Cephal
04-19-2009, 05:09 PM
I remember there being a post of how Light and Dark played a part. Would not to embrace both in equal levels be the key with holding a good connection to the collective energies/collective unconsciousness/collective will? By pushing in both directions, and pulling in both directions, you essentially could stay near dead center in the spectrum. I know this is spoken of, but I am attempting to bring it out in a form of my own observation. Each side is equally important, each side is equally powerful. Ultimately, I think that only being "light" or "dark" will essentially lead to dystopian results. The two merged represents balance, that of which is likely essential for enlightenment, and the two apart represent instability. Stability is key in achieving enlightenment, and therefore every person seeking enlightenment must eventually reach that point in order to gain what they are looking for. Even further on that concept, what we call "too utopian" now could be perfectly possible in an age where alchemy is unlocked and put to use for the benefit of the masses. To achieve balance on the whole of the world collective would be to lessen the problems we all face as human beings. If the world subconsciously wills violence, unrest, and chaos - The world will receive it - As we had seen increasing in recent times. Those who already wield power over the practice are likely using that fact to their advantage even at this point in time and have been for endless centuries. If someone who reaches enlightenment is able to tune in with the collective unconsciousness - It would be a powerful tool to enforce their control and enhance their greedy desires just as much as it would be a tool of good will and prosperity. Enlightenment, a form of true wisdom is more powerful than any gun, army, or super weapon that mankind can throw up in their use, which is why those who exploit have managed to retain their control in vast proportions for a very lengthy period of time.

This is another observation of mine and is purely a personal opinion.