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Aleilius
05-14-2009, 01:39 AM
What I'm wondering is if m-state users have any previous experience with psychoactive substances?

All m-state users speak of the "m-state consciousness" and the "m-state feeling." Some also speak of a "m-state high." Maybe I'm making a false assumption here, but it seems as though m-state users are seeking consciousness expansion of some sort. Why not choose psychoactive substances over m-states? What's the allure of m-states over psychoactive substances?

Vlad
05-14-2009, 09:27 PM
Yeah I have. Both are completely different imo. I would stay away from psychedelics as they seem dangerous and fake in the sense that they don't seem to give real interesting down to earth effects. It's 'mindfuck'.

Awani
05-14-2009, 09:55 PM
seem dangerous and fake.
DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine) (it's already in your brain) :eek:

Psilocybin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin)

Ayahuasca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca)

LSD can suck my...

:cool:

Vlad
05-14-2009, 10:10 PM
Yeah DMT could already be in the brain but it's probably a case like glucose and bloodsugar. You want a certain amount and not too much, and smoking or ingesting it through ayahuasca might introduce too much of it and offset the delicate balance leading to mindfuck. Trips are mindfuck, I don't think they can provide useful information that can be applied in day to day life. It's not like you can gleam alchemical information from trips. You're not gonna get the information on how to produce an alkahest after tripping.

Vlad
05-14-2009, 10:12 PM
As for DMT...

I posted this somewhere else:

First this. I smoked DMT last summer. I know it was pure DMT. It came from MHRB and when I smoked it before I saw a kaleidoscope of colors which I've been told is what you see before you break through.
Took a good hit. Then.
My breath stopped and my ability to swallow stopped.
I couldn't breathe. No ability to inhale or exhale air.
I couldn't swallow. Horrible feeling. Like my lungs and throat were paralyzed.

I saw behind-above-right of me something like a yellow entity that communicated and said 'cut yourself'. I suppose some kind of sacrasm or irony on what happened to me, like, look at yourself, you can't breathe and are going to suffocate, and can't swallow... cut yourself, let blood flow.

I felt intuitively what I could do. That was look into a mirror.
I went to the bathroom and did so.
Then I felt air enter my lungs, from below, upward, and then I could breathe again.
I swear this is paranormal and I realize it sounds like bullshit but I'm telling the absolute truth.

I then got swallow gag reflexes, and after maybe 10 to 20 of those I could fully swallow once, then more, and more until it was normal again and I could swallow normally.

Then, looking at my hands and arms, I noticed like I was becoming more wiry. Like my body was more muscular and while looking at myself and feeling becoming normal I noticed myself becoming more 'normal', less muscular and more wiry again. Very strange.

horticult
05-14-2009, 10:23 PM
Typical overdose and panic.
But you are right that it is almost impossible to remember from similar experiments something practical for daily life.
But, these are working contrary to my experience with 0 effects from Ormus.

Aleilius
05-15-2009, 01:59 AM
I find psychedelic use to be very useful for consciousness expansion. I also feel that synthetics or natural psychoactives are equally important, and one should not be held in greater light than the other.

While I don't have very much experience with m-states, I feel that psychoactive use is much safer, and more useful in gleaning information from the universal akashic record. I have a decent amount of experience in the realm of psychoactives, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. They are very crucial to my mental and spiritual development. They are great accelerators for growth when one is prepared for the psychedelic experience.

You guys that start with DMT as your first real psychedelic are in for a world of hurt. There's no wonder why panic & fear was experienced. DMT is one of the crown jewels of hallucinogenic psychoactive substances. It requires much experience in order to succumb to the full rapture & great teachings of such an amazing substance. Baby steps should be first, we learn to crawl before walking, to walk before running, to walk or run before riding a bicycle, to ride a bicycle before driving a car, etc. If one tries to drive a car without first learning to walk, then crashing in a fear stricken panic is a given, and should be of no surprise.

One should be able to walk with ease in the flowing torrent of the psychoactive experience before trying to fly to the sun. Those that seek the latter before properly mastering the former shall undoubtedly end up like Icarus in his ill-fated flight to the heavens!

EDIT: Sorry all, I modified the poll answers to better reflect the answers given thus far. Please cast your vote again. :)

theFool
05-16-2009, 01:51 PM
What about Salvia in tincture form? She can give a mild, short and controllable trip on correct dosage. Maybe not so pleasant but definately educational, and one can find down to earth info and answers.

As for m-states I think they are related more to health, they are not to be used for "trips", divination and such. Maybe one can get high on "health" when using them, who knows..

Aleilius
05-16-2009, 02:05 PM
As for m-states I think they are related more to health, they are not to be used for "trips", divination and such. Maybe one can get high on "health" when using them, who knows..
Those that consume m-states long enough & in decent amounts, or those that consume the high spin versions (red lion, etc) regularly mention the m-state consciousness. Hudson mentions the Egyptians used m-states in an Egyptian ritual. My memory fails me at the moment so I can't remember the finer points, but they would fast & consume m-states for an extended period of time. After so long they'd start to experience visions, and altered states of consciousness.

M-states in small amounts are said to be healthy, but if one starts consuming large amounts then they definitely alter one's consciousness (at least that's what I've gathered thus far).

theFool
05-16-2009, 02:27 PM
M-states in small amounts are said to be healthy, but if one starts consuming large amounts then they definitely alter one's consciousness (at least that's what I've gathered thus far).
I see what you mean. In that case then, the effects of m-states consumed for large periods would alter permanently the person and let him into a continuous "trip" state. If unprepared, he will end up to be a lunatic. I've read somewhere about an experiment when LSD was given to a yogi adept and he was not affected at all by it. Obviously he was already into that "state" and knew how to control it.

From that point of view, phychedelics are safer as they give a short glimpse of altered consciousness states and then get you back for assimilation.

Aleilius
05-16-2009, 02:38 PM
In that case then, the effects of m-states consumed for large periods would alter permanently the person and let him into a continuous "trip" state.
Yes, I've heard this before. I think this continuous state is brought about by taking the red lion. The white lion takes months & months to reach this state, and you can go back to normal if things get too intense. Supposedly one taste of the red lion is enough to cause this to happen.

M-states aren't psychoactive themselves, so they must alter something in the brain. Possibly causing the release of large amounts of endogenous DMT. This can be also be done by constant meditation from what I hear.

Vlad
05-16-2009, 02:43 PM
The (al)chemist/engineer I learned the Red Gold production method from, claimed that amanita muscaria extract and syrian rue extract (he used self made extracts with Spirit of wine but it's probably the whole plants work just as well - I dare not say it's only the muscimol and harmala alkaloids that matter) cause UV light to shine within the microtubuli within the nervous system and I believe it was that the gold diatoms which go into the microtubuli are affected by it as by charging or becoming luminous or something like that.

FYI he also claimed white powder gold is sodium bonded gold like The Essene says and that this form sticks outside of the microtubuli and can't fit inside and causes quantum effects from the outside towards the inside, while Red Gold diatoms go inside the microtubuli and directly affect the pure water that is there. He claims potassium gold should not have this problem as the potassium atom is smaller than the sodium atom and potassium gold should fit inside a microtubuline. He claimed to have observed yogically several times blockages in his nervous system caused by sodium gold aka m-gold ingestion and that he had to remove those using Red Gold diatoms.

Aleilius
05-16-2009, 08:24 PM
Very interesting post Vlad!


The (al)chemist/engineer I learned the Red Gold production method from, claimed that amanita muscaria extract and syrian rue extract (he used self made extracts with Spirit of wine but it's probably the whole plants work just as well - I dare not say it's only the muscimol and harmala alkaloids that matter) cause UV light to shine within the microtubuli within the nervous system and I believe it was that the gold diatoms which go into the microtubuli are affected by it as by charging or becoming luminous or something like that.
I wonder if the psychoactive substances combined with m-state red gold really matter that much. I bet it would work with almost any psychoactive substance. Psychoactives really stimulate the CNS, and I think that's what we're after. I'm really interested in the binding of m-state gold to the microtubuli. I've never really heard about this up until now. I'll do a search on Google, but on the by chance, do you have any more information you could share? Does this work with only m-state gold? Would it work with other m-states?

I've heard that DNA acts as a transceiver for really high frequencies (beyond light frequency). This sort of relates to what you shared about the UV light & microtubuli. I wonder if m-states strengthen the communication that occurs.



FYI he also claimed white powder gold is sodium bonded gold like The Essene says and that this form sticks outside of the microtubuli and can't fit inside and causes quantum effects from the outside towards the inside, while Red Gold diatoms go inside the microtubuli and directly affect the pure water that is there. He claims potassium gold should not have this problem as the potassium atom is smaller than the sodium atom and potassium gold should fit inside a microtubuline.
What's the difference between the quantum effects caused by white m-state gold compared to the quantum effects of red m-state gold? I guess the effects caused by red m-state gold are more prevalent over the white version, but that's the only answer I can come up with.

It's funny you should mention the potassium version of m-state gold. What do you think the effects of the potassium version of m-state mercury would be in the body? Would it drop to gold? I remember the Essene mentioned m-state mercury drops to gold when heated, but I don't believe he ever mentioned a temperature for this. I wonder if body temperature is high enough to cause this transmutation to occur. This is just a small thought experiment of mine. I definitely wouldn't consider taking m-state mercury!

solomon levi
05-16-2009, 11:12 PM
What I'm wondering is if m-state users have any previous experience with psychoactive substances?

All m-state users speak of the "m-state consciousness" and the "m-state feeling." Some also speak of a "m-state high." Maybe I'm making a false assumption here, but it seems as though m-state users are seeking consciousness expansion of some sort. Why not choose psychoactive substances over m-states? What's the allure of m-states over psychoactive substances?


I was listening to a "Coast-to-coast" program last week and Graham Hancock
was on and said something that I was very much in agreement with...
he said that all human experience is neuro-electro-chemical and so it shouldn't
be discouraged to explore one's states using psychoactive substances - that it
is in fact our birthright and sort of our duty... something like that.

I've had nice buzzes and states from m-state, but they don't compare to the intensity
and duration of psychoactives in my experience so far. That has its pros and cons I guess.
IMO, m-states are safer as far as "losing your mind" goes - they take much more time.
Most people are uncomfortable with losing their mind too fast. For that purpose, I adore
psylocybes. They scare me, and they give me a more accurate perspective on life.
In that sense they are very practical to life in my experience.

The high from m-state, in my experience, is like a raising of vibrations, whereas psychoactives
completely alter my perceptions. M-state is more intensity of normal awareness and psychoactives
bring about awareness of the non-ordinary.

But I expect more powerful m-states would produce greater alterations in consciousness.
I know they can help you get out of your body and also induce kundalini awakenings.

Seth-Ra
05-17-2009, 03:39 AM
ive never experienced either, so i have no room to say much on this mater, but ive been following the thread.

I have noticed though, that meditation does similar... "effects", letting your perception shift and see what is "really" there, as well as interacting with your subconscious and learning from him/her/it. Those experiences could almost be described as an "altered state of mind", depending on one's outlook on it.
With that, i personally prefer "activating" my own bodies energies, not using that of other substances, such as psychedelics or M-states. Not to say that its bad for those that do, but i would keep in perspective, and thoroughly investigate some of what one "learns" during the "trip". Activating one's own may take longer by yourself (without the use of those aids) but my reason for choosing to not use them is because i dont think they are needed. It may take longer, but a problem in our world is trying to "rush" through it, and Alchemy is supposed to be a nice, steady, "slow" initiation, not a "im gonna..." .... "Done, now what else to do..." kinda thing.

I just wanted to say that on it. I know i have no experience with the two mentioned substances, so i apologize if my thought is "out of place". To each their own, and i think this is a neat subject to listen into, so carry on. :) :D

Vlad
05-18-2009, 12:55 AM
I wonder if the psychoactive substances combined with m-state red gold really matter that much. I bet it would work with almost any psychoactive substance. Psychoactives really stimulate the CNS, and I think that's what we're after. I'm really interested in the binding of m-state gold to the microtubuli. I've never really heard about this up until now. I'll do a search on Google, but on the by chance, do you have any more information you could share? Does this work with only m-state gold? Would it work with other m-states?

The (al)chemical engineer claimed his Red Gold is the first stone, and he developed his process from studying Artephius. I am not sure if the incombustible red sulfur is the same thing as the first stone, and whether or not the first stone already transmutes into x10 potency on mercury (or silver?) but that's what he called it. He definitely told me he thinks repeating the cycle of black to red makes the material stronger but he didn't tell me how he did this.
According to him m-gold is incomplete and I don't think it would work with it but it could. He used Red Gold and travelled yogically through his own body with it and claimed he has seen pictures of the tunnels he travelled through in a book on alchemical engravings (The Golden Game by Stanislav Klossowky de Rola).


What's the difference between the quantum effects caused by white m-state gold compared to the quantum effects of red m-state gold? I guess the effects caused by red m-state gold are more prevalent over the white version, but that's the only answer I can come up with.


I don't know more about it than what he said that the Red Gold can go inside the microtubuli and directly cause quantum effects there, and the white gold cannot enter those and only affects the pure water from the outside.
I always figured if what he said was true I could also learn to travel yogically and observe it myself.


It's funny you should mention the potassium version of m-state gold. What do you think the effects of the potassium version of m-state mercury would be in the body? Would it drop to gold? I remember the Essene mentioned m-state mercury drops to gold when heated, but I don't believe he ever mentioned a temperature for this. I wonder if body temperature is high enough to cause this transmutation to occur.

You're right I can't think of his mention of a temperature for this. He did say though that there is a decay of some sorts. I read this in archives some days ago. There is an emission and after that it's stable gold.

This got me thinking on something else. Years ago I talked to someone who put mercury I think as the sulfide form as black HgS, in sodium phosphate. He got the solution to turn green after a while, some days. I always wondered if this was not m-Hg getting formed, then dropping to m-Au, then changing to the green form of m-Au. Kamala Jnana still had a method with HgS and KOH. Seems very similar to using Na3PO4 and HgS.
I found a vendor for HgS. I plan to order some and try this.

Salazius
05-18-2009, 09:32 AM
Hi Vlad,

For HgS, do it yourself it's far more "alchemical". In Cinnabar Way it's necessary.


Years ago I talked to someone who put mercury I think as the sulfide form as black HgS, in sodium phosphate. He got the solution to turn green after a while, some days. I always wondered if this was not m-Hg getting formed, then dropping to m-Au, then changing to the green form of m-Au.

Turning to green with no further evolution is a total failure.

Awani
06-07-2009, 10:34 PM
Check out this:


He who drinks the juice of the hallucinogenic mushroom saves his urine, and others drink this urine with inebriating effect, perhaps heightened, for there is reason to think that certain nauseating ingredients in the original mushroom are filtered out in passing through the human organism. This use of the urine can be repeated over and over again, it is said, until it has passed through five human bodies, where at last it loses its virtue. - from The Soma of the Rig Veda, by R. Gordon Wasson, p 178

:cool:

Vlad
07-02-2009, 08:34 PM
I just remembered something which I thought I had mentioned before but now I think I haven't yet mentioned the following:
(If I did have it doesn't matter, it's not mentioned in this specific topic anyway and it fits in nicely)

I combined DMT (smoked) with Golden Dew from www.atlantisalchemy.com

(I actually downed the whole bottle right before smoking the DMT.)

After taking the hit of DMT, I saw through my eyelids for like 30 seconds.
Literally my eyes were closed and I was seeing like as if my eyes were open. I was walking around inside and outside.

It faded, and came back spontaneously two times later that day. It also lasted a few seconds each time. The last time it also lasted maybe 30 seconds.

That night I also had my first complete lucid dream.

kerkring
07-02-2009, 08:49 PM
After taking the hit of DMT, I saw through my eyelids for like 30 seconds.
Literally my eyes were closed and I was seeing like as if my eyes were open. I was walking around inside and outside.


I've also experienced this when using binaural beat sounds.

Play_Dough
07-03-2009, 07:07 PM
http://www.imageuploads.net/ims/pic.php?u=32803xZHKX&i=171653
Original image by Petar Petrov-AP


What it is that I do know about this topic (M-States & Psychedelics) is that the quality of one's experience and experimentation with the substances mentioned in the thread is significantly enhanced by 'fasting'* for 72 hours prior to any such experiment.

*By 'fasting' I mean limiting one's food intake to include only fresh organic fruits and vegetables and pure water (for 72 hours prior). One can also choose an ideal 'time' (day) for any such experiments by employing astrological methods (i.e., ideal or favorable transits).

Also 'location' is very important, as such, choosing an ideal 'experiment location' that is 'natural' (beach, mountains, desert, etc.) also eliminates much of the 'psychic noise' and relative confusion associated with urban settings.

A clean digestive system and a natural setting greatly enhance one's results. As does 'good company'.



.

MarkostheGnostic
08-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Too late to reply? I'm on break for another week, so...
I believe that you were referring to the Guru Neem Karolie Baba from the book BE HERE NOW. He was given 915 mcg of LSD on one occasion, but owing to doubts on the part of the administrator of the acid (Ram Dass), he later took 1200 mcg. Nothing 'apparently' happened, but Baba did say that such substances were useful, that LSD gave the "darshan [teaching] of Christ."

As a 38 year veteran user of the major psychedelics, I can say with a certain amount of certainty ;) that as 'change agents,' psychedelics have made profound differences in my psyche (unconsciousness-consciousness-superconsciousness). The only drawback is that they contributed more to the 'air' and 'space' elements, according to Buddhist psychology, and most people take much more pleasure from the 'earth,' and 'water,' elements of life than I do. I share a certain amount of 'fire,' but that is conjoined to the former two elements, not the latter two. Bottom line: I'm rather 'other-worldly.' Then again, I'm an INTP (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), so psychedelics have enhanced my typology in this direction.

The psychedelic DMT is notorious for different reasons, but its short duration does not permit the energy released to be used in conjunction with yogic techiques that can channel said energy. The higher stages of concentration, meditation and trance cannot be explored with a trip of such short duration. In addition, the particular flora and fauna of the DMT states, yielding insectoid or reptilian beings are more likely images symbolized by the unconscious of subcortical brain structures (e.g., the reptilian or 'smell brain') and not indicators of trans-dimensional beings! Such imagery is not useful to transcendental states of consciousness - what Zen Buddhists call "makyo" [ma=devil, kyo=objective world]. Similar things can be said of Salvia Divinorum.

"The Stone which is not a stone," may well be equivalent to the Self-Realization of Eternal Life, or what the New Testament calls "the stone which the builders rejected which has become the capstone" (Psalms 118:22, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11), or perhaps more clearly, the Tibetan Buddhist Diamond Body. Both a metaphor for The Eternal.

One of the things that psychedlics have helped me with is to view the passage of time differently than most people I meet. I have tremendous recall of childhood events, I do not feel time as distant, dissapeared phenomena, and out of that feeling, I have rekindled friendships which seemed to have dissolved 30 years ago! People were amazed to hear from me, and apparently happy that they were never really absent from me, inwardly. I refer any reader here to the 'time experiment' that Deepk Chopra describes in his book Ageless Body, Timeless Mind. The psychedelic path is clearly not for everyone. I got smarter in certain ways, some people burn out, some get crazy, some dismiss the experiences as if they never happened.


I am unfamiliar with "m-states," but then again, that is the reason I joined this forum - to learn more! :)

Vlad
08-09-2009, 06:42 PM
I think psychedelics are dangerous and to be avoided except perhaps in certain cases as unlocking 'keys'.

You know it is even in the Bible, the sun book, Helios Biblios, stated that 'outside/cast out are the pharmakoi (along with the dogs). Pharmakoi is a greek word denoting plant user, witchdoctor, sorcerer.

I've taken mushrooms maybe a dozen times and a few times smoked DMT and twice ayahuasca and once san pedro.

The first time when I combined the mushrooms with m-state gold I had a mystical experience I was told is near to what the red lion induces. I was told it's from the gold.

Then end 2006 beginning 2007 my body experienced intense heat (like I described in the other thread titled Spiritual experience of m-state gold).

I reasoned maybe I might fix this with mushrooms.

Since I took the mushrooms then, all went wrong. The heat disappeared, but I saw electrical entities, got sensory derangements and my intention and subtle energy feelings of the mind messed with, still going on until now.
I am of the opinion the brain, or my brain probably, contains AI, and that with mushrooms they got 'loose' and rebelled, causing psychotic annoyances.

The last few days, actually initiated about a week or two ago after I once again felt a similar feeling, like real consciousness, similar to what I felt in 2004 on the gold with mushrooms, after only taking about two teaspoons of Red Gold for a month and a half, I got more annoyed by these electrical entities again. They started right when I experienced the consciousness, by saying things like 'mushrooms!', like in a panic, and then annoy me for days on end with things like making me feel it's okay to move a certain way, think a certain way, make my breath forcefully gasp like with electrical shocks, making me forcefully swallow (very hard to ignore swallow impulse stimulation) and especially everything that is related to your free will and mind and breath.

I constantly felt with a strong intuition what to do and what not to. It's like 'knowledge of good and evil'.

So I did this, having done this before, and knew it's stuff like voodoo/magic, like drink a sip of Red Gold while pissing, eat certain foods in a certain order (it's like certain foods are linked to body 'layers' or parts), and watch when to use electrical devices, when to use objects, and when to take gold, and when not.

So yesterday I got to a point where I saw in a visionary sight after laying in bed for hours not knowing what to do, grapes. I ate grapes, and felt a left part of my body near the thigh with specific feelings like I felt months before, last year actually, when it was like a mass of water got 'loose' there, and connected to hell. Apparently the grapes did something to it.

After it I felt like getting up, dressed, and do things in order again, like turn on the pc, drink some water, turn it off again (when it was on sometimes I felt a drain of energy at the forehead), lick some monoatomic gold, turn it on again, drink water, turn it off again, etc, things like that, which cumulated in feeling like an electric activity at the centre of the chest, which I had felt years before as extinguishing after taking mushrooms.

Then I knew I had to eat goji berries, a food which calmed down the heat I had years ago. I kept on eating goji berries, saw images of 'Jehovah' looking displeased (which apparently whether Jehovah is real or not or a part of my brain as I was educated as a child as Jehovah's witness) but knew I had to do this, and kept doing this, and eventually noticed an image of a yellow being associated with an egyptian, getting a like strideful appearance, and heard the words, sol king, then kept eating the berries, and heard the words Jesus Christ, and related to that actually during the mystical experience in 2004 it was fully with christmas/christ feelings (I just knew this it felt like that), and then I saw other entities, felt intuition to touch my identitiy card and passport, saw images of a blue being I associated with bankers, heard the words 'templars' (or partially like they were forced into my consciouses), heard like mystics saying things in my intuition on what to do, then mostly drink water, move location (basically move from my bed to my 'garden'), avoid swallowing and forcefully gasping my breath when I felt suffocation feelings, drink water when the gasp happened forcefully against my will, and it ended with drinking a LOT of water and invoking the name of Sauron (is it real? I dunno, like I said it might be it's just a structure in my brain), then I felt like energy moving along my spine towards my crown while I kept drinking a lot of water, and I had to go outside, and heard the words 'angelic being', and had to send it to heaven, and then I went back inside, got told with a voice I associate as coming from a god 'no gold!' and 'work!', then I noticed particular electrical beings that annoyed me a lot (calling themselves electronic jews and associated with america) laying low or not seeing me or something, then it culminated with a voice I haven't heard in years, actually not since the intense heat end 2006 beginning 2007 disappeared, to tell me to go outside, then told me choose a spot, which I did, and told me this spot would be the new great pyramid, and to never leave it if the heat returns, which it said it will, and to take the red lion, that I would need it, and that even the white gold would be too weak (to apparently calm down the heat).

Now I don't know if this is all psychotic. But. I can tell you this heat was real, even if it's experienced in the brain. This begs the question whether pain is real or electricity etc and what it consciousness etc but I'm not gonna drift off into that. I go with what I experience, that makes it real for me. The heat was real and like intense dry heat and energy moving like magnetic energy bands almost that can be bent with will but which resist strongly.

A lick of monoatomic gold calmed this heat down beginning 2007 for like 20 minutes half an hour. So did *constantly* eating goji berries with barely time to drink water. Water didn't do a lot. I had to drink liters all the time.

And actually the being whose voice I heard yesterday, and partially saw, looked and sounded like the being(s) I saw right before and after the heat. I remembered it.

I think I may have 'disconnected' from parts of my brain connected to the heat and these beings when taking the mushrooms in 2007 during the heat after which all went wrong. And that now I reconnected to it, doing 'psychotic voodoo actions'.

It is said the white powder of gold was the food of the king and high priests in egypt, and I think I recall that they ate a lot of it, like grams a day probably. It could very well be connected to this heat.

The being yesterday said that this spot I chose would be the new great pyramid. I don't know about that but I remember the heat I used to experience was connected to locations, and I did have a dream one time then that said something along the lines of 'who sleeps under the great pyramid?'.

Is it real? Well yesterday, after chosing the spot, I started seeing totally different images in my mind, like out of flashing blacklight, of all kinds of images of things from the world, mostly from antiquity, like chalices and pyramids and things like that. All incredibly detailed looking, not at all like the electrical beings I saw.

Now I apparently have been 'disconnected' from this heat and maybe these parts of the brain for like two and a half years. During that time I took nearly ten times mushrooms and a few times DMT, most of these on the guidance of intuition.

I did read somewhere on a forum someone saying that psilocybin does indeed damage neurons, by shortening some strands of something, and that these can grow back, but never fully as they were or something like that. I don't recall the details but I don't think it's harmless.

Hephælios
08-10-2009, 08:03 AM
Yeah I have. Both are completely different imo. I would stay away from psychedelics as they seem dangerous and fake in the sense that they don't seem to give real interesting down to earth effects. It's 'mindfuck'.

Well, Ibogaine has been used for years in the treatment of substance abuse (namely alcohol addiction) and in many cases has been shown to have an immediate effect in reducing dependance. Seems very down to Earth to me.

MarkostheGnostic
08-10-2009, 03:03 PM
I think psychedelics are dangerous and to be avoided except perhaps in certain cases as unlocking 'keys'.

You know it is even in the Bible, the sun book, Helios Biblios, stated that 'outside/cast out are the pharmakoi (along with the dogs). Pharmakoi is a greek word denoting plant user, witchdoctor, sorcerer.

I've taken mushrooms maybe a dozen times and a few times smoked DMT and twice ayahuasca and once san pedro.

The first time when I combined the mushrooms with m-state gold I had a mystical experience I was told is near to what the red lion induces. I was told it's from the gold.

Then end 2006 beginning 2007 my body experienced intense heat (like I described in the other thread titled Spiritual experience of m-state gold).

I reasoned maybe I might fix this with mushrooms.

Since I took the mushrooms then, all went wrong. The heat disappeared, but I saw electrical entities, got sensory derangements and my intention and subtle energy feelings of the mind messed with, still going on until now.
I am of the opinion the brain, or my brain probably, contains AI, and that with mushrooms they got 'loose' and rebelled, causing psychotic annoyances.

The last few days, actually initiated about a week or two ago after I once again felt a similar feeling, like real consciousness, similar to what I felt in 2004 on the gold with mushrooms, after only taking about two teaspoons of Red Gold for a month and a half, I got more annoyed by these electrical entities again. They started right when I experienced the consciousness, by saying things like 'mushrooms!', like in a panic, and then annoy me for days on end with things like making me feel it's okay to move a certain way, think a certain way, make my breath forcefully gasp like with electrical shocks, making me forcefully swallow (very hard to ignore swallow impulse stimulation) and especially everything that is related to your free will and mind and breath.

I constantly felt with a strong intuition what to do and what not to. It's like 'knowledge of good and evil'.

So I did this, having done this before, and knew it's stuff like voodoo/magic, like drink a sip of Red Gold while pissing, eat certain foods in a certain order (it's like certain foods are linked to body 'layers' or parts), and watch when to use electrical devices, when to use objects, and when to take gold, and when not.

So yesterday I got to a point where I saw in a visionary sight after laying in bed for hours not knowing what to do, grapes. I ate grapes, and felt a left part of my body near the thigh with specific feelings like I felt months before, last year actually, when it was like a mass of water got 'loose' there, and connected to hell. Apparently the grapes did something to it.

After it I felt like getting up, dressed, and do things in order again, like turn on the pc, drink some water, turn it off again (when it was on sometimes I felt a drain of energy at the forehead), lick some monoatomic gold, turn it on again, drink water, turn it off again, etc, things like that, which cumulated in feeling like an electric activity at the centre of the chest, which I had felt years before as extinguishing after taking mushrooms.

Then I knew I had to eat goji berries, a food which calmed down the heat I had years ago. I kept on eating goji berries, saw images of 'Jehovah' looking displeased (which apparently whether Jehovah is real or not or a part of my brain as I was educated as a child as Jehovah's witness) but knew I had to do this, and kept doing this, and eventually noticed an image of a yellow being associated with an egyptian, getting a like strideful appearance, and heard the words, sol king, then kept eating the berries, and heard the words Jesus Christ, and related to that actually during the mystical experience in 2004 it was fully with christmas/christ feelings (I just knew this it felt like that), and then I saw other entities, felt intuition to touch my identitiy card and passport, saw images of a blue being I associated with bankers, heard the words 'templars' (or partially like they were forced into my consciouses), heard like mystics saying things in my intuition on what to do, then mostly drink water, move location (basically move from my bed to my 'garden'), avoid swallowing and forcefully gasping my breath when I felt suffocation feelings, drink water when the gasp happened forcefully against my will, and it ended with drinking a LOT of water and invoking the name of Sauron (is it real? I dunno, like I said it might be it's just a structure in my brain), then I felt like energy moving along my spine towards my crown while I kept drinking a lot of water, and I had to go outside, and heard the words 'angelic being', and had to send it to heaven, and then I went back inside, got told with a voice I associate as coming from a god 'no gold!' and 'work!', then I noticed particular electrical beings that annoyed me a lot (calling themselves electronic jews and associated with america) laying low or not seeing me or something, then it culminated with a voice I haven't heard in years, actually not since the intense heat end 2006 beginning 2007 disappeared, to tell me to go outside, then told me choose a spot, which I did, and told me this spot would be the new great pyramid, and to never leave it if the heat returns, which it said it will, and to take the red lion, that I would need it, and that even the white gold would be too weak (to apparently calm down the heat).

Now I don't know if this is all psychotic. But. I can tell you this heat was real, even if it's experienced in the brain. This begs the question whether pain is real or electricity etc and what it consciousness etc but I'm not gonna drift off into that. I go with what I experience, that makes it real for me. The heat was real and like intense dry heat and energy moving like magnetic energy bands almost that can be bent with will but which resist strongly.

A lick of monoatomic gold calmed this heat down beginning 2007 for like 20 minutes half an hour. So did *constantly* eating goji berries with barely time to drink water. Water didn't do a lot. I had to drink liters all the time.

And actually the being whose voice I heard yesterday, and partially saw, looked and sounded like the being(s) I saw right before and after the heat. I remembered it.

I think I may have 'disconnected' from parts of my brain connected to the heat and these beings when taking the mushrooms in 2007 during the heat after which all went wrong. And that now I reconnected to it, doing 'psychotic voodoo actions'.

It is said the white powder of gold was the food of the king and high priests in egypt, and I think I recall that they ate a lot of it, like grams a day probably. It could very well be connected to this heat.

The being yesterday said that this spot I chose would be the new great pyramid. I don't know about that but I remember the heat I used to experience was connected to locations, and I did have a dream one time then that said something along the lines of 'who sleeps under the great pyramid?'.

Is it real? Well yesterday, after chosing the spot, I started seeing totally different images in my mind, like out of flashing blacklight, of all kinds of images of things from the world, mostly from antiquity, like chalices and pyramids and things like that. All incredibly detailed looking, not at all like the electrical beings I saw.

Now I apparently have been 'disconnected' from this heat and maybe these parts of the brain for like two and a half years. During that time I took nearly ten times mushrooms and a few times DMT, most of these on the guidance of intuition.

I did read somewhere on a forum someone saying that psilocybin does indeed damage neurons, by shortening some strands of something, and that these can grow back, but never fully as they were or something like that. I don't recall the details but I don't think it's harmless.

We should, ideally, know intuitively, what is good or not good for ourselves. It is clear by your own admission, that psychedelics are not your path, and that they do not evoke clarity for you, but rather, confusion ("mind fuck"). For those of us who have greatly benefitted from their use, there has been in the past a messianic zeal to turn on everyone. This has proven unwise in the extreme. I have seen people with pre-existing schizophrenia have full-blown psychotic episodes after taking LSD, even after I advised that they not take psychedelics. I saw acid casualties while growing up. Clearly not for everyone.

Psilocybin may contribute to the ability of people to live to extreme old age (120-130) as reported among certain peoples in Central America who use mushrooms. The alkaloid is less damaging to functioning than say, an accumulation of THC in the brain of a chronic user, and even less toxic. Psilocybin enhances night vision, and it was Terrence McKenna who suggested that early humans who used certain mushrooms may have acquired an evolutionary edge in night hunting because of them. There has been quite a bit about the immune system enhancing effects of several mushrooms, including psychedelic varieties.

MAPS (the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) publishes a quarterly journal with up to date research projects on psychedelics. There is Stephen Peele's magazine from the FMRC (Florida Mycological Research Center) also. I have received both publications (the latter going back 20 years) and I have never read of neuronal damage from psilocybin. Moreover, the government is currently sanctioning psilocybin to be used in the treatment of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. An increase in blood pressure during use has been my only concern, but the numbers are not sufficiently high to cause real alarm, even by someone with controlled hypertension.

Lastly, I should point out that the Holy Anointing Oil mentioned in Exodus 30ff contained (in KJV and other translations) Calamus oil (Acorus calamus) which in turn contains Beta-Asarones and TMA, a precursor to the psychedelic catecholamine, mescaline. Some people prefer to render the translation 'cannabis oil,' but the effects would not be nearly so profound, so I disagree. If the mythic Moses and Aaron anointed their bodies with this compounded oil, they would've absorbed transdermally a lot of psychedelic with which they could commune with YHVH and go out to see "the glory of the LORD." It is true that pharmakeia is the Greek root for pharmaceutical, and that drugs are synonymous with sorcery in ancient times, but obviously the same thing occurs with magick. There is the theurgical magick of Moses, ostensibly coming from the true God, and there is the thaumaturgical magick of Pharoah's magicians. The staff of Moses turned serpent swallows both staff-serpents of Pharoah's magicians - to illustrate that 'my God can beat up your God' once again. Drugs and magick are OKelly-dOKelly in the service of 'my' God, but not 'your' God. Absurd.

Saxarba
10-18-2009, 09:03 AM
the effects of psychedelics are very different from m-states. you can't even compare them. its like comparing breathing with sleeping. they're both useful.

Donna Matrix
05-01-2010, 09:00 PM
I beleive tht was a brain wave study> They took ordinarypeople and ut them deep into thte or delta, whichever is for the deepest state and mant of them couldn't handle it and had psychotics episodes , then they hooked up an experienced meditator and he had no problem. The conclusion was that the slow way to the mountain top is the safest way.

Donna Matrix
05-24-2010, 08:32 PM
I disagree here. I think most psychadelics work by softening and weakening the etheric veil/body. This allows not only visions but possessions. There are examples of individuals that went insane scattered all over the annals of psychadelic history. And they don't know how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

On the other hand, ormus seems to strengthen the etheric body unitl it becomes so strong it superceds the physical . Big difference. For those of us at a certain age, we all know casualties of the psychadelic movement. Witness Sid Barrett of Pink Floyd.

LeoRetilus
05-24-2010, 09:13 PM
Yea...I agree with that for the most part, but DMT is different, don't class it with psychedelics and psychoactive narcotics, its not an illicit drug, its natural and by that I don't mean in an organic sense at all, like pot. I mean it is naturally produced in the brain, it is soley responsible for spiritual revelations/encounters/ ephiphanies and NDE's. The biblical/egyptian acacia ties are worthy of a closer look, the buring bush, that which raises the hair of the third eye...etc,etc... Occult manifestations from the aether, poltergeists, psychokinesis, and all forms of ESP originate in the brain,... pituitary and pineal glands, there is a chemical culprit for all of these in certains peoples(check poltergeist activity of pre-pubcesant teenage girls of the Ural mountains) and it is naturally brain secreted DMT and like excretions. Look at Rick Strassmans study closely,... foile deux, how can this be accounted for in a rational sense if the brain does not bend physical reality and create something for all to see, a shared hallucination, is this not the very definition of reality?

Andro
05-24-2010, 09:38 PM
A shared hallucination, is this not the very definition of reality?

Indeed it is :)

But the Big Question is: What is the primordial NEED which creates this shared hallucination ? ! ?

Ab Roek
05-25-2010, 05:56 AM
... Look at Rick Strassmans study closely,... foile deux, how can this be accounted for in a rational sense if the brain does not bend physical reality and create something for all to see, a shared hallucination, is this not the very definition of reality?

You are confusing consensus reality with reality in itself.

Careful attention reveals that most folk use the word reality to mean "that which has manifest." The Sage turns this point of view on its head, as she does every worldly point of view.

Fidelity
AB RK

LeoRetilus
05-25-2010, 06:16 AM
Indeed it is :)

But the Big Question is: What is the primordial NEED which creates this shared hallucination ? ! ?

A NEED or a broadcasted frequency?

vega33
05-25-2010, 06:23 AM
I disagree here. I think most psychadelics work by softening and weakening the etheric veil/body. This allows not only visions but possessions. There are examples of individuals that went insane scattered all over the annals of psychadelic history. And they don't know how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

On the other hand, ormus seems to strengthen the etheric body unitl it becomes so strong it superceds the physical . Big difference. For those of us at a certain age, we all know casualties of the psychadelic movement. Witness Sid Barrett of Pink Floyd.

For every famous "casualty" of the psychedelic movement, there have been several successes to go along with them. For the Sid Barretts, there are the Ray Thomases (Moody Blues), the Keith Richards, members of the Doors, and so on. Bill Hicks pointed this out well.

The cautions regarding the etheric body surrounding drugs are warnings that began largely with the Theosophical Society during the Occult Revival of the late 1800s. It is useful to know that at the same time as Madame Blavatsky was advocating her attainment through celibacy, vegetarianism, no drugs etc, Paschal Beverly Randolph as well as several other orders were also advocating judicious use of psychoactive compounds such as hashish which had been in use over the prior centuries in places like Arabia and India, as well as advocating the use of magic mirrors and sexual magic. Blavatsky's Theosophy, and the philosophical framework which arose as a result of the ferment of the occult revival, represents only one out of a large number of spiritual systems. And several alternative spiritual systems, such as various shamanic cultures, have made use of plant compounds in communicating with nature.

In order to examine the claims about the etheric body properly, we must know what is meant by terms like "etheric body" and "astral body". Some of the uses for these terms came as a result of Franz Hartmann's adaptation of Paracelsian terminology and other pseudo-alchemical terms. It thus becomes doubtful that the originators of such claims truly understood the meaning of such terms, and their implications for the development of human consciousness or the soul.

The astral body of man, as far as a definition may exist, being said to relate to the liquid component of man, relates primarily to the quality of the blood, secondly to other fluids which circulate such as the cerebrospinal fluid (more to its internal dynamic nature or structure rather than its gross composition). The etheric body, on the other hand is that force whose external manifestation is the electrical and magnetic component of the body.

Both of these components of man can be affected by psychoactives, just as they can be affected by meditation, or ingesting things like m-state, and ultimately this will alter the way consciousness is able to manifest in the body, temporarily or quasi-permanently. Ultimately therefore the decision on whether to ingest ormus, ormes, m-state or psychedelics depends on what way you want to alter your consciousness. As I understand it, the injunctions against drug use and use of alcohol in various spiritual traditions is due to their ability to negate or alter the changes created in such subtle bodies that would occur if you were, for instance, performing energetic techniques such as the focus of awareness in the Dan Tien to build up the subtle centers, or attempting to create the diamond-body.

It is interesting to notice that the spiritual paths that abjure one not to use such plants are often the ascetic, contemplative disciplines that are largely cut off from the natural world. One can only speculate on the effects that this disconnect must have on their. consciousness. Just some thoughts.

LeoRetilus
05-25-2010, 06:25 AM
You are confusing consensus reality with reality in itself.

Careful attention reveals that most folk use the word reality to mean "that which has manifest." The Sage turns this point of view on its head, as she does every worldly point of view.

Fidelity
AB RK
Not a confounding but a defining of the two......
IT"S NOT ,..... "that which has manifest", .....ITS THAT WHICH I MANIFEST!!!

http://grosenberg.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/rwthe_magician.jpg
The SAGE


http://www.billcasselman.com/TarotFoolZero.gif
Everyone else

Andro
05-25-2010, 05:22 PM
You are confusing consensus reality with reality in itself.

From where I'm looking, the above quoted belief-based distinction indicates an incomplete/fragmented understanding of the Philosophical 'Origin'.

It is the belief in such distinctions which is 'confused'.
Fortunately, reality 'in itself' is not subject to division or categorization by psycho-semantics or dualistic mindframes.

All reality is inherently based on Philosophical Consensus between its Parental Archetypes. If one cannot grasp this simple principle (easily recognizable in patterns of self-similarity on any given scale), one should better not bother to pontificate, but rather partake of another decent dose of Un-Learning, friendly recommended.

'Reality in itself' is in fact 'reality in affinity/agreement with itself', thus experiencing itself via a certain Consensus.

There is a Universal Component in all of us, permeating all of reality. This IS the basis for reality, it is what we name Common Mercury.

This our Common Mercury is the Philosophical Platform/Common Ground/Consensus which allows for reality to be 'in itself'.
One can not distinguish 'consensus reality' from 'reality in itself' any more than one can distinguish 'external' Alchemy from 'internal' Alchemy.

Residing on a 'higher level' (i.e. 'sages') only means that one is able to perceive and experience a much wider spectrum of this Mercurial/Universal Consensus.

One can easily fall into the trap set by one's own 'occult blinds', usually originating from a premature sense of acheivement, and often resulting in self-righteous over-pontificating. This is, however, an apparently necessary and often unavoidable stage in one's advancement, a stage which must be eventually passed through and overcome.

I view this stage as a sort of 'False Summit', so to speak. However, neither do I wish to alter anyone's beliefs. Only to share my perspective.
__________________________________________________

This Winding Mercurial River (our Platform/Consensus) meets itself in itself, and by collapsing onto itself it creates 'Points of Specification', which we name Sulphur.

This is the Specified Component in all of us, it is Mercury that is already determined and fixed to various degrees, thus generating 'Points of Self-Awareness'.

These points are what allow for DIVERSITY and for reality to experience, mirror and KNOW/'fuck' itself.

This is NOT possible without a Universal Platform of Consensus, regardless of level of residence.

All 'Points of Self-Awareness' are born of Universal Mercurial Consensus.

All Sulphur is born of self-impregnating Mercury.

It would not be possible for the Mercurial River to perform as 'Messenger' and permeate all of Creation without an Universal Language.

Again, Consensus - not of the vulgar, but rather of the Pre-'Babel Tower' variety.
__________________________________________________

Now comes the interesting part, which I suspect Green Lion referred to as the density paradox (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=8311#post8311).

As a Specified Point becomes increasingly super-saturated ('heavy') it faces two possibilities:

Possibility 1. If not able to cohere/compress the abundance/super-saturation of specified data, it either 'explodes' and shatters into pieces (critical mass) OR becomes gradually unstable and starts decaying until returning to a more stable comfort zone (comparable to heavy but unstable/radioactive heavy elements).
This can also be observed in fragmented personalities as a result of uncontainable (by them) events of shock/trauma/overload.
It can also be compared to the effects that may be experienced by someone partaking of an Alchemical Stone when not yet ready.
This can cause significant set-backs, but they're not permanent (nothing is :))

This is in my view the main reason for secrecy, not some global conspiracy attempting to prevent mankind from transcending. Everyone in their own time and readiness.

Ultimately, by Design, everything that rises must converge.

Possibility 2. When/if able to cohere/compress this super-saturation, it 'implodes', thus releasing the burden of over-specification related to its current level of reality, and becoming of a MUCH lighter density enabling it to transcend to the next level and to perceive/experience a much wider and more 'rectified'/'rarefied' spectrum of the Mercurial Consensus.

And the Journey doesn't end here.

Eventually, everything converges and is infinitely compressed, and only pure archetypal 'memories' remain, while the event-related ones are washed away.
When this occurs, even the Mercurial River comes to a stand-still, outside spacial/temporal constructs.

These occurances are represented by the intersecting points on the Caduceus, when the Archetypal Parents of the Mercurial River periodically surrender to eachother.
Ouside these 'Points of Convergence'/'Surrender' there is also Consensus, but it is not without 'battle' and various degrees of duality, explaining the vortices and fluctuations in the Mecurial Currency - which are the very cause of generating Points of Self-Awareness and Specification.

While we're wakingly swimming in the Mercurial River, we are asleep at the Convergence Points.
When we are awake at the Convergence Points - the River sleeps and 'Hell' freezes over, only to be followed by a new re-solution.

Through the Fiery Waters of the Mercurial Phoenix we travel between ashes and ashes, between Saturn and Saturn, between Sabbath and Sabbath, from dust to dust, between one Stand-Still and the next one.

Both states (Flow & Stand-Still) are valid and consentual, and comprise the whole concept of the Caduceus - if one's Occult Vision is un-learned enough to see it.


Careful attention reveals that most folk use the word reality to mean "that which has manifest."

'Manifest' is a limiting term. Un-manifest potential is just as 'real' as manifest potential, because it is only un-manifest from our current focus/perspective/point of reference.
When taken to Infinity, EVERYTHING is manifest and REAL, no less than it isn't. The 'Paradox of Origin' is not an easy 'Stepping Stone'.


The Sage turns this point of view on its head, as she does every worldly point of view.

I completely agree - A 180 degree 'phase shift' is indeed necessary to move up the density scale in a spiral fashion.
However, this 'turning/shift' of perspectives must be reflected in one's ACTIONS.

I advise anyone making such bold claims to perform a 'reality check' (:eek:) and see how much of this 'turning' they have accomplished in their lives in practical application.

In other words, if you offer a meal - start with the pudding :)

Still, this is only the end of one journey and the beginning of another...

Andro
05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
A NEED or a broadcasted frequency?

OK, so what is this primordial NEED to broadcast this frequency?

solomon levi
05-25-2010, 06:02 PM
Indeed it is :)

But the Big Question is: What is the primordial NEED which creates this shared hallucination ? ! ?


While I can agree that originally we may have followed a 'primordial need' to
share this hallucination, I'm also certain it has been usurped by intelligences
for their self-serving / feeding off of the energy of the beings who have
become 'trapped' in this shared hallucination. I think this obvious due to what
most people experience at death as going to the light and seeing relatives or
loved ones, etc. The 'light' in this instance is not a good thing to go to without
wisdom. It will strip you of your personality/experiences (this is the "feeding"
process) and send you back to the Matrix again, ignorant.

But to answer your original question, IMO, to make known the unknown is the
only mandate that I know of. Mass sharing of hallucinations/realities is part of that.
I don't see that it is any more of a primordial need than anything else - knowing any
other unknown. When spirits first "descended" / involuted, they did so in groups.
These groups, for the most part, naturally evolve at similar rates. And ever since
the 'gods' have been here and manipulated the DNA and brain of the Apa, the
Matrix has been in place and the beings in the 'light' to patrol and direct us/recycle
us back into it.

sol

Andro
05-25-2010, 06:19 PM
Dear Solomon,

If you'll practice Eagle-Eye's View maybe you'll see the Cosmic Humor and the Game Aspect in our consentually shared hallucination ;)

All these 'gods'/spirits/gnostic demiurges/alien manipulators - I view them as from a passing train :cool:

Ultimately, they're no more than fellow players, each at their own level.

We'll all meet and have a few good laughs after EndGame :)

LeoRetilus
05-25-2010, 06:33 PM
OK, so what is this primordial NEED to broadcast this frequency?

That was a well written and beautiful post before, I beleive you answered this for yourself: "This is not possible without a Universal Platform of Consensus, regardless of level of residence."

God created the "universal platform" and it is he who broadcasts this "frequency " that generates the consensus reality we find ourselves in. It was neccessary so that we all meet on the same plane of interaction otherwise we would be spread throughtout all of chaos, it was he who first set the stage, when he separated the waters from the waters and the heavens from the earth, it is we who must complete his creation, by being made in his image we as well have the power to pull from the chaos to help complete his creation, hopefully inline with his will.

The greatest gift God gave man was his free will, it was because of his ardent love that he set man above all of creation, if we love him equally we can choose to make to him a gift of equal value, we can choose to give it back! When our will aligns with his, their is no greater force in the universe, it is serenity,.... it is peace ,at last, at least that what I have found.





One can easily fall into the trap set by one's own 'occult blinds', usually originating from a premature sense of acheivement, and often resulting in self-righteous over-pontificating.
This is, however, an apparently necessary and often unavoidable stage in one's advancement, a stage which must be eventually passed through and overcome.....

....I advise anyone making such claims to perform a 'reality check' () and see how much of this 'turning' they have accomplished in their lives in practical application.

In other words, if you offer a meal - start with the pudding



Very well put.....this is the path of the Fool. But if the fool takes his own advice (The Sage turns this point of view on its head, as she does every worldly point of view.)
he will turn his perspective on its end and hang like this( from this vantage point if the fool pays attention, he will experience great revelations):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/RWS_Tarot_12_Hanged_Man.jpg/150px-RWS_Tarot_12_Hanged_Man.jpg

I will let the description of the hanged man make my point for me.....

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/hangedman.shtml

"The Fool settles beneath a tree, intent on finding his spiritual self. There he stays for nine days, without eating, barely moving. People pass by him, animals, clouds, the wind, the rain, the stars, sun and moon. On the ninth day, with no conscious thought of why, he climbs a branch and dangles upside down like a child, giving up for a moment, all that he is, wants, knows or cares about. Coins fall from his pockets and as he gazes down on them - seeing them not as money but only as round bits of metal - everything suddenly changes perspective. It is as if he's hanging between the mundane world and the spiritual world, able to see both. It is a dazzling moment, dreamlike yet crystal clear. Connections he never understood before are made, mysteries are revealed.

But timeless as this moment of clarity seems, he realizes that it will not last. Very soon, he must right himself, and when he does, things will be different. He will have to act on what he's learned. For now, however, he just hangs, weightless as if underwater, observing, absorbing, seeing.

Basic Tarot Meaning

With Neptune (or Water) as its planet, the Hanged Man is perhaps the most fascinating card in the deck. It reflects the story of Odin who offered himself as a sacrifice in order to gain knowledge. Hanging from the world tree, wounded by a spear, given no bread or mead, he hung for nine days. On the last day, he saw on the ground runes that had fallen from the tree, understood their meaning, and, coming down, scooped them up for his own. All knowledge is to be found in these runes.

The Hanged Man, in similar fashion, is a card about suspension, not life or death. This is a time of trial or meditation, selflessness, sacrifice, prophecy. The Querent stops resisting; instead he makes himself vulnerable, sacrifices his position or opposition, and in doing so, gains illumination. Answers that eluded him become clear, solutions to problems are found. He sees the world differently, has almost mystical insights. This card can also imply a time when everything just stands still, a time of rest and reflection before moving on. Things will continue on in a moment, but for now, they float, timeless.

Thirteen's Observations

Neptune is spirituality, dreams, psychic abilities, and the Hanged Man is afloat in these. He is also 12, the opposite of the World card, 21. With the World card you go infinitely out. With the Hanged Man, you go infinitely in.

This card signifies a time of insight so deep that, for a moment, nothing but that insight exists. All Tarot readers have such moments when we see, with absolute clarity, the whole picture, the entire message offered by a spread. The Hanged Man symbolizes such moments of suspension between physical and mystical worlds. Such moments don't last, and they usually require some kind of sacrifice. Sacrifice of a belief or perspective, a wish, dream, hope, money, time or even selfhood. In order to gain, you must give. Sometimes you need to sacrifice cherished positions, open yourself to other truths, other perspectives in order to find solutions, in order to bring about change. One thing is certain, whether the insight is great or small, spiritual or mundane, once you have been the Hanged Man you never see things quite the same".

solomon levi
05-25-2010, 06:54 PM
Dear Solomon,

If you'll practice Eagle-Eye's View maybe you'll see the Cosmic Humor and the Game Aspect in our consentually shared hallucination ;)

All these 'gods'/spirits/gnostic demiurges/alien manipulators - I view them as from a passing train :cool:

Ultimately, they're no more than fellow players, each at their own level.

We'll all meet and have a few good laughs after EndGame :)


:)
Yeah, if you're referring to 'darting past the Eagle', I used to write much of the
similarity between the light and the Eagle's devouring beak and talons, the "white
flashes" between the two immense black wings, on a Castaneda website. (It's just like
what the electro-magnetic spectrum looks like if you view it entire: hertzian and
infrared as one wing, visible light as the beak/talons/consumer, and UV, X, gamma
as the other wing.)
If not, I may have missed your point.
I agree with your view of the manipulators. :)

Andro
05-25-2010, 07:06 PM
But timeless as this moment of clarity seems, he realizes that it will not last. Very soon, he must right himself, and when he does, things will be different.

This is exactly the state I was refering to as the timeless/spaceless suspended condition at the intersection points of the Caduceus :)


Once you have been the Hanged Man you never see things quite the same"

The burden of the Hanged Man is heavy, and often there is much pain. But it's always darkest before Dawn.

I would like to quote the last lines from a very moving film I've seen years ago, which left a strong mark on me.

From 'The Wisdom of Crocodiles':



When I was a boy,

I fell out of a tree.

But I managed just to grab a branch.

I hung there for a long time, terrified.

The silence...

Then the pain in my arms...

And the blood pounding in my ears.

And then, I fell.

I don't remember...

What happened

When I hit the ground.

All I can remember now...

Is the agony...

Of holding on...

And the wonderful ...

Wonderful feeling...

Of letting go.

Andro
05-25-2010, 07:26 PM
I used to write much of the similarity between the light and the Eagle's devouring beak and talons, the "white flashes" between the two immense black wings, on a Castaneda website. (It's just like what the electro-magnetic spectrum looks like if you view it entire: hertzian and infrared as one wing, visible light as the beak/talons/consumer, and UV, X, gamma as the other wing.)



Coins fall from his pockets and as he gazes down on them - seeing them not as money but only as round bits of metal - everything suddenly changes perspective.

Ask the Eagle about the electromagnetic spectrum, ask him about Hertzian and Infrared, ask him about UV, X and Gamma...

Quoth the Eagle: "Never. More."

:)

Donna Matrix
05-25-2010, 08:12 PM
It is interesting to notice that the spiritual paths that abjure one not to use such plants are often the ascetic, contemplative disciplines that are largely cut off from the natural world. One can only speculate on the effects that this disconnect must have on their. consciousness. Just some thoughts.

Wonderful thought on this thread. I understand what you are saying, Vega, and there is no gain without sacrifice. From what I undersatnd and have experienced, there are two paths, Apollonian and Dionysian, left brained, intellectual and rational vs right brained, emotional and mystical. I think we need a healthy dose of both or we get swallowed by duality. Because the rational is dry and divorced from the body, but the emotional or irrational has no control. There is a place for control, and a place for no control or surprise on the path to the montain top. I myself have received great blessings from psilocybin, even LSD, but at a cost. I don't see how anyone can do that long term. Isn't the goal to be "always on"? To have that constant awareness but still be in the body? Even the Buddha espoused the middle way. I don't think one can divorce enlightenment from the body, or value exctasy above rational thought. We all long for mystical union, if not with another person certainly with the Divine. And talking about isn't the same as having it.

jus sayin

DM

Ghislain
05-26-2010, 12:40 AM
Ultimately, they're no more than fellow players, each at their own level.

We'll all meet and have a few good laughs after EndGame :)

Hear! Hear!

Ghislain

Ab Roek
05-26-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm certain you're correct. And, how impertinent of me to offer the fruits of my experience! Please accept my profound apologies.

Fidelity
AB RK



...
One can easily fall into the trap set by one's own 'occult blinds', usually originating from a premature sense of acheivement, and often resulting in self-righteous over-pontificating. This is, however, an apparently necessary and often unavoidable stage in one's advancement, a stage which must be eventually passed through and overcome.
I view this stage as a sort of 'False Summit', so to speak. However, neither do I wish to alter anyone's beliefs. Only to share my perspective.
...
I advise anyone making such bold claims to perform a 'reality check' (:eek:) and see how much of this 'turning' they have accomplished in their lives in practical application.
In other words, if you offer a meal - start with the pudding :)
Still, this is only the end of one journey and the beginning of another...

Andro
05-26-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm certain you're correct. And, how impertinent of me to offer the fruits of my experience! Please accept my profound apologies.

Ab Roek,

You have often offered wise words (most of which are much appreciated), however more recently in a rather lofty, one-sided and pontificating manner and with no sharing of any fruits of your own personal experience, more or less directly related to the Great Work.

Your statement that triggered my comment is (from my perspective) simply incorrect, the statement which makes a fragmented distinction between 'consensus reality' and 'reality in itself'. This, in my view, denotes a misunderstanding of the universal reality platform known as common mercury.

But instead of clarifying the subject at hand, you evade it by making unnecessary apologies. Why apologize if you haven't hurt or offended anyone? One symptom of the 'False Summit' stage is a noticeble decrease in the ability to maintain a 2-way road of communication, which is replaced by lofty one-sided sermons accompanied by a distinct reluctance to reciprocate on the relevant topic.

Maybe you feel you know more than everyone else here and are gradually losing interest - which, if this indeed be the case, is perfectly understandable and OK in itself, if that's your thing - but it does not explain your continuing participation in a public forum where members usually join in order to mutually share and reciprocate, not to mention learn (or un-learn) from and by eachother.

So, in friendship, I ask you (if you will) to re-read my entire post and respond to the subject matter, IF so inclined.

In addition to that, I would be particularly interested in your own personal experience and examples with 'turning points of view on their head'. I myself have been doing it before even being consciously aware of it, thanks to my innate orientation and the benefits it has provided me with. I would very much love to hear your story rather than your sermons.

solomon levi
06-12-2010, 09:58 PM
"Turning points of view on their head"....

From Roy Norvill's "The Language of the Gods" (italics and parenthesis are his):

"By far the greater mass of symbolism is devoted to the act of the process in all its stages, and we may begin at the point where the aspirant realises that he must turn his thoughts and concentration inward. As you will appreciate, this is a complete reversal of the normal direction in which the attention is attuned, and therefore it is characterised as such. Pictorially, it may be depicted as a man, or an animal, looking back over its own shoulder, or by something or someone placed, or hanging upside down. In texts you may find it referred to in the most innocuous manner with the mere mention of a 'going in another direction'. As a classic example of the mythical application we may cite the boatman of the Egyptian Mysteries, whose name was 'Face-behind', because it was necessary for him to face backwards so that he could pole the boat from the stern across Lily Lake (act of reflection). The later Greek equivalent is more familiar as Charon. There is also the classic symbol of the snake which is depicted swallowing its own tail.
The act of reversing the attention in order to look in at the real ''I" is equivalent to gazing at oneself in a mirror. Consequently, it was called Reflection, athough in many cases the term Meditation was substituted...
mirror, lake, moon... Isis, Demeter, Diana, Virgin Mary....
The place where the reflective act is put into practice, the inner mind, has been given many equally misleading names, among them vase; vessel; retort; ship; cave; coffin; tomb; casket; tree; mine; tower; furnace; laboratory. It has often been depicted as a forlorn place, far away and removed from all normal channels of communication, like a desert; an uninhabited island; the far North; or the Nether Regions.....
The two main forces instrumental in the process are the Attention, and the requisite amount of Concentration. In terms of allegory, it is difficult to separate this pair one from the other, for they go together, and as far as success in this process is concerned, one is totally useless without its companion. Perhaps we may loosely distinguish between them by saying that the Attention is often called water, while the Concentration is known as the secret fire. When these two qualities are combined in the correct manner in the course of the reflexive act, it is then that the mind becomes the vase, or the vessel, whilst the two combined forces themselves are named mercury. This latter term, however, is merely the best known of literally hundreds of obscure titles, some of which are; smoke; humidity; blood; woman; field; bath; vinegar; vitriol; sperm; mother; our water; argent-vive; and most aptly on one occasion, inspector of concealed things."

Andro
06-27-2010, 11:47 AM
Speaking of 'Turning Points of View on their Head':

One has the given (Default) POV, then one has the Opposite, 'Turned on its Head' POV (180 Degrees).

Finally, there is the Synthesys, which is in fact the most difficult practice of joining the Philosophical Oppo-Sames, like Fire and Water.

In Astrology, this is represented by the most challenging Square Aspect/Angle (90 Degrees) within the Circle of the Zodiac.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Square-Circle.jpg

I personally find this to be an important Key to the Great Work, regarding the Qualities which are to be employed in the actual practice of the Great Work.

The Sun and The Moon.

They are One.

They are not The Same.

But they are not Opposites, either.
___________________________________________

Following a similar line of thought while looking at the following symbols of six major religions - what do those six symbols have in common?

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Six.jpg
___________________________________________

Also, since Salazius brought up 'Travis' in another thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=10172#post10172), they also have a nice song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46eOoDDiE9Q&feature=related) about turning:


If we turn, turn, turn
Then we might learn.