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Aleilius
05-23-2009, 01:15 AM
The Essene mentioned m-states drop to metal in the presence of sulfur. However I'm re-reading the Hudson patent, and he mentioned that ORMEs are often found associated with sulfide ores.



http://www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormes.htm

During efforts to effect quantitative analytical separations of transition metals from naturally occurring materials, it was discovered that ORMEs exist naturally and are found in salts with alkali metals and/or alkaline earth metals, all of which are coupled with waters of hydration and normally found with silica and alumina. ORMEs are also often associated with sulfides and other mineral compositions.

Who's correct? Is it Hudson or the Essene?

Vlad
05-23-2009, 01:26 AM
Hudson also said sulfur turns ormes back to metal.
I think it's probably different when talking about a sulfide ore. In that case the sulfur is already bound to a metal as a sulfide and the ormes could be present along in the ore not bound or inlfuenced by the already bound sulfur. It could be a reason why ores are 'living' and alchemical.

Aleilius
05-23-2009, 02:31 AM
Good idea!

solomon levi
05-30-2009, 09:40 PM
According to one of Hudson's lectures, his original starting
material was soil which he flooded with sulfuric acid.

Aleilius
05-30-2009, 09:44 PM
Can you post a link to this lecture? It sounds interesting!

solomon levi
06-02-2009, 07:04 PM
Can you post a link to this lecture? It sounds interesting!

I couldn't find a good one. The one on subtleenergies is a very
limited outline.
I have the VHS of it:

David Hudson in Yelm, Washington - Nov 13, 1995:

A better outline from me:
Hudson worked with soils, and in Arizona they had "high-sodium
soils" which is a "problem", so they were buying sulfuric acid and
bringing it in in tanker trucks and injecting it in six-inch ribbons
onto the soil at 30 tons per acre, 93% sulfuric acid... as the fields were
irrigated the acid would "froth and foam and suds" from the water...
"what we were doing is we were making sodium sulfate (remember
Glauber's sal mirabile? - that's me saying that...) which is called a white
alkali out of sodium which is a black alkali."
"The white alkali was leechable, so we were able to wash it out of our
topsoils. In doing that leeching you have to make sure there's enough
buffer substance - something that keeps the pH stable in the soil -
(calcium carbonate - lime). In the investigation of our soil, (to see if
there was enough lime) I kept running
into this "stuff" that we didn't know what it was... so we got this material,
dissolved it out of our ore - basically our soil is just decomposed rock;
it's just dirt - no organic material... so we got the material in solution
and added powdered zinc and it precipitated out as a "black"... we filtered
the black out on the filter paper and set it out in the sunlight to dry and as
it dried, it exploded! This didn't make any sense...
Upon investigation, there didn't appear to be any explosion or implosion,
just a tremendous burst of shortwave light. It burned a pencil through,
but it didn't knock the pencil over...
When dried inside it doesn't "explode", so I sent it off to the labs and they
told me I had iron, silica and aluminum. And I said I,S and A don't
explode, and you can't tell me any compound of them that explodes... and
they said "That's right". And I said, when it's totally dry it will not
redissolve in any acid. And they said "Really?"

He was able to remove all the I,S and A and he still had 98% of the
material, and they (at Cornell U) said now you have nothing.

They cupelled it down with lead and there was nothing, no gold or
silver. Even when he put known amounts of gold or silver in the solution
and cupelled it down, there was still nothing - the gold he put in was gone.

So he goes on to get really good equipment and a DC arc that burns for
a long time and eventually the platinum group elements begin to be
revealed....

The arc is 5500 degrees centigrade - basically the temp of the sun,
and everything boils away and you read it as they boil off.
The regular burn was 15 seconds, but some Russian book said to
burn for 300 seconds, so he begged the guy to just burn it for
300 seconds. You put an inert gas around the carbon electrode
and fire it... in the first 15 secs they read iron, silica and aluminum,
traces of calcium, traces of titanium, and that was it. But you look in
and sitting on the electrode is a glowing white ball of material, which
finally begins to read at 70 seconds - palladium, then platinum, then
ruthenium, rhodium, iridium and then osmium. They actually read in
the sequence of their boiling tempertures, just as the academy of soviet
sciences said they would....


Hope that's enough for now.

Jerry
06-04-2009, 01:08 AM
David Hudson in Yelm, Washington - Nov 13, 1995:
This is bullshit.

Aleilius
06-04-2009, 01:14 AM
You think so? Could you be a little more specific instead of just saying it's bullshit. It would be helpful.

Jerry
06-04-2009, 01:48 AM
You can start with applying 30 tons of sulfuric acid per acre. This qualifies as a environmental disaster! You go to jail for stuff like that. :)

What is I, S, and A?
Fe, Si, and Al are too complex?

In his 1994 presentation he said his work was done at the Argonne National Laboratory not Cornell. Then it states clearly: "David heated the samples for 300 sec.".

Nobody goes out and buys equipment because you don't like the answer.

The is no "academy of soviet sciences". For more information on this topic see: Anomalous Gold, Skeptical Inquirer, Jan/Feb 1998, pg. 38 - 40.

As far as the analytical work is concerned - nonsense. The sample only burns for 15 secs because it spits, sputters and splatters all over the place. It doesn't puddle on the electrode. It is gone.

Any lines that appear after the sample is gone, is due to carbon or air arc lines. The idea in analytical chemistry is to get the right answer not to get the answer you like. The analytical work is totally asinine.

Aleilius
06-04-2009, 02:10 AM
Fair enough Jerry! I can understand the points you make. :)

Jerry
06-04-2009, 02:19 AM
And a P.S. - I talked to David Hudson on Nov. 11, 1995 and asked him about his O.R.M.E.S. His reply....."There's nothing to it". :)

Aleilius
06-04-2009, 02:41 AM
Haha, that could be interpreted two ways. Without context it'll be difficult to draw a proper conclusion.

1. One interpretation might be that it's simple or easy to produce/extract.
2. It might also be interpreted as being fake.

solomon levi
06-04-2009, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure I understand your points Jerry.

I don't know for a fact that dumping 30 tons sulfuric per acre will land a
professional soil worker in jail. Could you offer a source?

I, S and A are iron, silica and aluminum.
Why do you ask if they are too complex? I didn't say anything about their complexity in my post. I said they don't form an explosive compound.

He mentions several labs he had work done in. Argonne was one. I don't see this as a problem. Maybe just a timeline confusion.

Yes, he said the manual from the soviet academy of sciences said to burn for 300 seconds, according to the lecture.

Forgive me if it sounded like I said he went out and bought equipment. He rented it or leased it or something. He paid to use it.

I don't know about the soviet academy... I didn't interpet him to say they are existing now. I understood he had found a book from them. It could have been old.

I didn't say anything about "puddling". I guess you'd have to see it for yourself. Have you seen it - his material on a DC arc?


I don't know. You sound biased to me - not objective.
I'm not saying that's my opinion of you either. I'm saying that when someone argues something by using misquotes and without sources, that's the only reasonable conclusion to come to. As you said, (but in different words), we'd like the truth, not the answer we'd like to see. You're seeing what you want to.
I'm not saying Hudson is right either. I'm don't promote belief of any sort. I'm just saying that I don't have enough information to judge with any finality, and from your post you didn't supply that information either.

solomon

Jerry
06-05-2009, 01:07 PM
Haha, that could be interpreted two ways.
Real funny until somebody looses an eye (or poisons themselves).

I called David Hudson at home to discuss his 1994 presentation he gave at Fort Collins, Co. He sounded quite surprised that he gave such a presentation and denied being there, but he was also curious on how I got his home phone number. I told him his phone number was on the back of the presentation paper of the speech that he had given. He though that it was “interesting”.

I told David Hudson I was interested in comparing notes on the subject of Alchemy, but he didn’t appear to have much knowledge of the subject. I thought it was odd since he said he did read all those books. I was then curious as to his explanation of how he determined that pigs brains were composed of 5% rhodium and iridium?, how his white powder lost weight on heating?, how he determined how gold had something to do with Alchemy?, and many other questions. Of course we will never discuss such things on a forum because I feel you are more inclined to believe in fantasy.

When I finally got around to asking Hudson about his so-called O.R.M.E.S., he replied: "There's nothing to it", meaning it’s a SCAM.

Do you get it?

Jerry
06-05-2009, 01:11 PM
I don't know for a fact that dumping 30 tons sulfuric per acre will land a
professional soil worker in jail. Could you offer a source?
Well you didn’t say it was a “professional soil worker”. That makes a world of difference.

Source? Sure. This is why we have environmental laws in this country. Either you don’t know how much is 30 tons of sulfuric acid and what contaminants it contains or you don’t know how small an acre is. This is another fantasy created by the cult of the ormus.

And you’re right. I am biased because I have a background in science and applied technology. I’ve also done emission spectroscopy so it is easy for me to recognize bullshit when I see it. Others may believe such stories but it should make one wonder why the technique or results of Hudson’s experiments were never published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. I’ll give you the answer: because it is bullshit.

Once the sample is gone from the carbon electrode, it is gone. The sample doesn’t sit there and form a “glowing white ball of material” (puddle) because the force of the arc will splatter the sample, which why they have splatter shields around the electrodes, which electrodes by the way are only 6 or 7 mm in diameter. If the sample is gone, what is the source of the emission lines? I’ll give you the answer to this too. There are thousands of lines emitted in a carbon arc. The idea is to pick out the right lines which are representative of the element in question not pick and choose some line which is close to an emission line of some other element which doesn’t exist in the sample. I can easily over-excite a neon bulb and “prove” any element exists by this type of logic.

And no, I never did see Hudson’s material on a DC arc and neither did you. And I doubt that Hudson did either. I doubt you even have any background in spectroscopy to make any such ridiculous statements except to “spread the word” so others believe in this nonsense.

It still is unclear who actually did any of the work because the story changes frequently. In one place it is sent out to various labs, then he did the work, then somebody else did the work, then he claims again he did the work, and then it happens to be ICP. This ormustry sure is confusing. I guess that is the idea.

Yes, we do have standard accepted symbols for the elements. Iron is Fe not I, Silica is Si not S, and Aluminum is Al not A. This is another indication of a cult.

Of course now, Hudson may not be right. But then, the m-state theory may not be right either. Gosh! Where did I hear this before?

I’m glad to see your recent posts have more of mature tone to them unlike your previous posts which read like episodes from Beavis and Butthead. Another indication of somethin.

Vlad
06-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Several people made the green goldchloride solution Hudson claimed is monoatomic. Gold is not detected in it by ICP-MS.
It could be monoatomic. It could also be diatomic, or a superatom or unknown form of gold or proto metallic arrangement of atomic components.

Vlad
06-05-2009, 05:48 PM
There is also a movie on Barry Carter's website, and pictures, of a cat whose tail was severed and who started to regrow a new tail after being fed an ormus product.
A mammal regrowing bone and tendons is a pretty amazing thing. I have never seen or heard of this happening before except in reptiles. The healing claims of ormus seem to be valid from all the anecdotal evidence I have seen and from the few studies done about it.

solomon levi
06-05-2009, 06:48 PM
Well you didn’t say it was a “professional soil worker”. That makes a world of difference.

THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, THAT THAT WAS HIS PROFESSION. I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH. (I'M NOT YELLING. :) JUST USING CAPS TO DISTINGUISH MY REPLY FROM YOURS.)

And you’re right. I am biased because I have a background in science and applied technology. I’ve also done emission spectroscopy so it is easy for me to recognize bullshit when I see it. Others may believe such stories but it should make one wonder why the technique or results of Hudson’s experiments were never published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. I’ll give you the answer: because it is bullshit.

YEAH, I'M NOT AWARE OF HIM PUBLISHING IN ANY SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL EITHER. HE DID PROVIDE MANY OTHER ARTICLES FROM SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS THAT SUPPORTED HIS WORK/CLAIMS. HE PUT THEM UP UN THE SCREEN AND WAS SURE TO READ THE SOURCES. I MEAN YOU COULD READ IT YOURSELF ON THE OVERHEAD PROJECTOR. THAT GAVE HIM SOME CREDENCE IN MY EYES. YOU'LL HAVE TO SEE IT IF YOU HAVEN'T.

Once the sample is gone from the carbon electrode, it is gone. The sample doesn’t sit there and form a “glowing white ball of material” (puddle) because the force of the arc will splatter the sample, which why they have splatter shields around the electrodes, which electrodes by the way are only 6 or 7 mm in diameter. If the sample is gone, what is the source of the emission lines? I’ll give you the answer to this too. There are thousands of lines emitted in a carbon arc. The idea is to pick out the right lines which are representative of the element in question not pick and choose some line which is close to an emission line of some other element which doesn’t exist in the sample. I can easily over-excite a neon bulb and “prove” any element exists by this type of logic.

BUT THE SAMPLE ISN'T GONE. THE IRON, SILICA AND ALUMINUM WERE GONE AFTER 15 SECONDS. THERE WAS STILL A LARGE AMOUNT OF SAMPLE STILL THERE AFTER FIFTEEN SECONDS WHICH STARTED TO READ AGAIN AT 70 SECONDS... AS i SAID IN THE ABOVE POST. ACCORDING TO HIS CLAIM, HE WAS ABLE TO ELIMINATE THE i, s AND a AND STILL HAD 98% OF THE SAMPLE LEFT.

And no, I never did see Hudson’s material on a DC arc and neither did you. And I doubt that Hudson did either. I doubt you even have any background in spectroscopy to make any such ridiculous statements except to “spread the word” so others believe in this nonsense.

NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY BACKGROUND IN SPECTROSCOPY. BUT APPARENTLY YOU DON'T EITHER AS FAR AS EXCEEDING THE 15 SECOND RANGE. THE WHOLE THING HINGES ON THAT. YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT WHY ONE DOESN'T NEED TO EXCEED 15 SECONDS, BUT UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY DO IT, HOW WILL YOU KNOW? HUDSON PROVIDED THE SPECTROSCOPY GRAPHS WHICH SHOWED THE SPIKES WHERE THE ELEMENTS FIRED OFF. THAT'S MORE THAN YOU'VE SHOWN ME, SO FOR NOW I'LL GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

It still is unclear who actually did any of the work because the story changes frequently. In one place it is sent out to various labs, then he did the work, then somebody else did the work, then he claims again he did the work, and then it happens to be ICP. This ormustry sure is confusing. I guess that is the idea.

POSSIBLY. BUT CONFUSION IS NOT AGAINST THE ALCHEMISTS' CREED, IF I CAN CALL IT THAT - OBSCURUM AD OBSCURUM - ISN'T THAT WHAT THEY SAY. THERE CAN BE OTHER REASONS FOR CONFUSION AND DECEIT THAN SIMPLY THAT ONE MADE THE WHOLE THING UP AND IT NEVER EXISTED.

Yes, we do have standard accepted symbols for the elements. Iron is Fe not I, Silica is Si not S, and Aluminum is Al not A. This is another indication of a cult.

HAHAHA. NO IT'S NOT. IT WAS JUST MY SHORTHAND. IF YOU KNEW ME, YOU'D THINK ME THE OPPOSITE OF A CULT. I'M NOT PERFECT OR ANYTHING, BUT MY FIRMEST MINDSET, IF I CAN CALL IT THAT, IS TO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING. I DESPISE WHAT BELIEF HAS DONE TO THE WORLD. IF YOU READ OBJECTIVELY, YOU'LL SEE THAT YOU ARE SHOWING MANY MORE BELIEFS THAN I AM. YOUR MIND IS MORE CULTISH THAN MINE, SIMPLY BY THE FACT THAT YOU INTERPRET MY LAZY SHORTHAND AS CULTISH! BUT YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY BEING OBJECTIVE. AND I'M SINCERELY NOT BEING CONDESCENDING - I'M JUST STATING A FACT. AND IF YOU CAN BE OBJECTIVE, YOU'LL SEE WHAT I MEAN: NONE OF THIS IS PERSONAL TO ME. IT'S NOT HUDSON VS. JERRY FOR ME. IT'S JUST INFORMATION WEIGHED AGAINST OTHER INFORMATION, LIKE A MATHEMATICAL EQUATION. BUT TO BE HONEST, EACH TIME I READ ONE OF YOUR NON-OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENTS, I LOSE FAITH IN THIS CONVERSATION GOING ANYWHERE. YOU CLAIM TO BE SCIENTIFIC, BUT YOU ARE FAR TOO PERSONAL TO ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH THAT. FOR ME, I'LL WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN AFTER THIS DISCUSSION AND BE OPEN TO WHAT YOU BRING THE NEXT TIME. IF I DON'T DO THAT I'M ALREADY LOST. IF YOU DON'T MIND MY ADVICE, THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WITH THE WHOLE HUDSON THING... BEGIN AGAIN; BEGINNER'S MIND; EMPTY YOUR CUP. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? HOW CAN WE CALL OURSELVES SCIENTIFIC IF WE CAN'T DO THAT? YOU CAN CALL YOURSELF SCIENTIFIC, BUT YOU'RE NOT BEING SCIENTIFIC.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER (THEY SAY), BUT THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE. WHAT I'M SAYING IS, WHAT YOU KNOW MAY BIND YOU. EACH THING WE KNOW DEFINES US, AND IN THAT DEFINING WE BECOME LIMITED. TO UNKNOW IS TO UNLIMIT.
PEOPLE ARE SO CERTAIN ABOUT SO MANY THINGS, BUT WHEN ONE ACTUALLY PERCEIVES LIFE, THERE'S NOTHING CERTAIN ABOUT IT AT ALL.
I'M NOT MEANING TO BE PREACHY. JUST TRYING TO GIVE YOU A SAMPLE OF MY PHILOSOPHY. BUT YOU CAN STILL INTERPRET IT AS CULTISH IF THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE YOU KNOW HOW TO PERCEIVE FROM.

Of course now, Hudson may not be right. But then, the m-state theory may not be right either. Gosh! Where did I hear this before?

IT IS ESTABLISHED IN REAL SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS WRITTEN BY REAL SCIENTISTS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HUDSON THAT M-STATE OCCURS. IT'S GONE BEYOND THEORY. HAVEN'T YOU READ ANY OF THEM? YOU CAN GOOGLE IT IF YOU LIKE.

I’m glad to see your recent posts have more of mature tone to them unlike your previous posts which read like episodes from Beavis and Butthead. Another indication of somethin.

UHHH..... THANX.... I GUESS.... HUH, HUH, HUH. ;)
YOUR POSTS HAVEN'T CHANGED AT ALL.
AND I'M NOT JUST SAYING THAT AS A COMEBACK.
I DON'T DESIRE TO "COME BACK". SHALL WE "GO FORWARD"?
MAKE KNOWN THE UNKNOWN?

SOLOMON

solomon levi
06-05-2009, 07:54 PM
And no, I never did see Hudson’s material on a DC arc and neither did you. And I doubt that Hudson did either. I doubt you even have any background in spectroscopy to make any such ridiculous statements except to “spread the word” so others believe in this nonsense.



Are you so biased to not see that you are spreading the opposite word?
Are you so subjective to be unable to see that you are spreading a word of doubt based on your personal conclusions and opinions?
YOU are the one interested in belief. I do not share information so that others will believe, like you do. I share it so they can choose. You are trying to influence that choice by casting your personal doubts everywhere as if they are scientific fact.
Aleilius asked me for a link - I provided the best I could at the moment. I edited and used shorthand to save time, not to influence anyone's decisions.
Again, I'm not perfect. Yes, I have some belief in Hudson. But that's just my preferred disposition. Until I see evidence to doubt, I choose to believe that things are possible, since I have yet to find absolute proof of an impossibility having ever existed.

Personally, I don't divide people into "those who believe in Hudson" and "those who don't". I see that as your business, and you can't help but to project it onto me and others. There's so much more to people and the world. Is it worth the sacrifice? To feel right? (righteous?)

Some people assume responsibility for their own lives.
If I were you, I would see to your attitude before blaming Hudson or thinking his answers or lack of them are to everyone and not just you.
Do you really believe that there is noone else in this world that could have asked the same questions with different attitudes and received different answers? When dealing with alchemists, you can't apply these standard default rules of logic like you're trying to do. I've seen the Essene respond to people the same way, and I've seen my teacher respond to people that way, and I wasn't surprised because I've responded to people that way.
For example, when some guy at the convenience store asks you "how are you?" do you tell him your story or do you tell him "Fine, thanks." or whatever standard default automatic unconscious answer flies out. And when your wife asks you while you're laying in bed together at night, "How are you?", do you give the same answer? I hope not. And is it not because of the difference in the asking? If the guy behind the counter at the convenience store, after hearing your "fine, thanks." says "No, really... How's life? What are you learning? Is it what you expected?", will you not now have a different reply?

Jerry
06-06-2009, 02:06 AM
If the guy behind the counter at the convenience store, after hearing your "fine, thanks." says "No, really... How's life? What are you learning? Is it what you expected?", will you not now have a different reply?
This may come as a surprise but I don’t think I ever saw a guy working at my local convenience store. Only the girls work there. When I’m done and the clerk checks me out, she says, “Did you find everything you wanted?”. And I just smile and say, “You want me…..don’t you?”.

I don’t see any wrong with being skeptical about such claims as Hudson makes. One can not take information like this at face value. This is why it should be published in a scientific journal so other researchers can try to reproduce the results. When Hudson put up his charts, are we to automatically assume these are the original chart recordings from the spectrograph or some transposed data. I’m not saying that Hudson fudged the data but it is nice to know the source of such data. It is possible that a source of error could be contaminated electrodes which may have read some sodium lines and they may have been misinterpreted as some other element. The contamination may have been lower on the electrode and it took 70 seconds to burn down to that level.

I admit that monatomic forms of elements exist but I don’t think I ever got a clear definition of what m-state actually means. You say maybe monatomic like Hudson, another says magnetic. This could also mean some i”m”aginary state. Putting a bunch of references up on the overhead during a lecture isn’t the right way of approaching the validity of a claim. It takes time to hunt down the various reference materials and digest them to see what relevance it has to the claim.

Well, you’re right again. I haven’t really done any 70 second burns much less 300 seconds, because the timer on the power supply only went to 60 seconds. My objective was to follow standard operating procedure to get the most accurate answer every time. I think that extending the burn time might create other problems so I just did what worked best.

I’m still suspicious of Hudson’s claims because they appear to be due to analytical error which he may have interpreted as a discovery. Hudson does say about his O.R.M.E.S., “They cannot be detected by present instrumentation using conventional procedures”. Yet he does use “present instrumentation” and somewhat “conventional procedures” except for the burn time which shouldn’t be a factor.

Sorry for ruffling your feathers but it still looks like bullshit.

solomon levi
06-06-2009, 03:25 AM
Well, the little paragraph or two I wrote on Hudson here is only like 10 minutes of 5 or 6 hours of lecture and presentation. You can judge the whole by a small part or you can get the tapes. You can't expect me to present all his information fairly in this small thread. To call it bullshit before then says something about you, not him. When you make a final judgement on someone or something, it only limits what you can learn - it says nothing about them.

If my feathers are ruffled it's because I'm fighting for you. You make me sad Jerry. Why is it so important to have people or things in a nice neat final box? You're missing out, man. Life is bigger than any box you can conceive. One man, one idea, is bigger than any box. Please don't be satisfied with your boxes. Impossibility is just a mind-thought/concept without substance; you can't put an impossibility in my hand... they don't exist. The universe is too large to ever contain it all in your mind. Even to know a small corner completely is folly. Please don't take knowledge too seriously. It isn't what really matters here.

Albert Einstein said,
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

and also,
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

solomon levi
06-06-2009, 03:45 AM
Scientifically speaking, if I may elaborate a little further on knowing and wonder, you might look at it like the quantum model... the universe is full of potential, quantum waves. When you "know" something, or even think or believe or imagine you know something, you collapse that potential wave into a definite particle. It doesn't make us right. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - we see it because we created it with/in our minds. Potential doesn't have a right or wrong manifestation... it's potential: it can be anything.
There have been people throughout time that have deemed it worthwhile to be very aware of when they collapse this potential into personal reality, and what it is they are collapsing it into. In fact, that may be the only "free will" we have, if we have that. Most people are not free because they automatically, mechanically, un-consciously (without intent/will), collapse the potential into the personal without even realising that's what they're doing, and they mistake it for truth or the real world. It's not. It's a subjective, imaginary, mind world. Anyone can be right any time in their personal world. It's not a great accomplishment. A great accomplishment is to undo one's mechanical, habitual manner of sleeping through our lives on automatic pilot, and to intentionally collapse and uncollapse realities...even to see reality as it is when mind is silent and not interfering. Then you align yourself with all truth, all potential.
It's not difficult to translate that into alchemical terms if one wishes.

Vlad
06-06-2009, 07:21 PM
I have made a red gold solution appearing and behaving somehow like a colloid of gold. Particles in suspension apparently. Jerel the person who developed and taught this method was a chemical engineer. His product he claims is made of diatoms of gold and he claims this is the correct 'oil' form of gold and that Hudson's product is probably sodium-gold which he believes is not right.
It is to me all theory and it could be wrong, however Jerel did tests on his product and it does not behave like a colloid. It is pretty inert.
I did a simple test myself. I added aqua regia and I think HCl and H2O2 to his product, and in both cases it did not dissolve, and when adjusting the pH and neutralizin the acid nothing did precipitate. That shows it's gold in a form that does not appear to be like common gold at least in reactivity.

This reminded me of something. This topic is about sulfur. I asked Jerel if his product reacted with sulfur. I think he replied he has not tested this or did not know. It would be interesting to test this and see if it converts to metallic gold or a colloid. Certainly Hudson's product does and the theoretical chemistry behind this is that the sulfur takes the sodium from the gold and causes it to bind with other gold atoms back to a metallic form.

Jerry
06-07-2009, 02:34 PM
Well, the little paragraph or two I wrote on Hudson here is only like 10 minutes of 5 or 6 hours of lecture and presentation. You can judge the whole by a small part or you can get the tapes. You can't expect me to present all his information fairly in this small thread.
I’m not evaluating this just based on your short description. I’ve been following this since the 90’s. It is not new information.

Again, when someone has a claim of some new discovery, the place to have it evaluated is by the people that have the knowledge and expertise to do such an evaluation. This doesn’t happen to be the general public. The general public will believe just about anything because they do not have the background in such matters to make such an evaluation.

I’ll try to make this a short as possible. The claim that Hudson applied 30 tons of 93% sulfuric per acre of land is totally ridiculous. You don’t have to be a scientist to figure this out.

You expect people to believe that Hudson who “is not a chemist or a physicist” and is a “dirt farmer” goes out and develops an improved spectroscopic technique by reading a Russian book (he also must be fluent in technical Russian) discovers elements in some previously unknown monatomic form which happen to be “orbitally rearranged”. Of course no one else has ever found these things, yet these spectroscopic techniques have been around for decades. His so-called “discovery” is based on analytical error. No such elemental states have ever been detected by other non-destructive laboratory analysis such as x-ray diffraction (only by Hudson), not even by the person that claims to increase the burn time to 300 seconds.

Besides even if these elements exist in a monatomic form, their orbitals are rearranged, according to Hudson. Which means the emission lines of these elements will not be where they are supposed to be, because the emission lines are dependent on the electron orbitals. This is where all the s, p, d, f (Sharp, Principal, Diffuse, Fundamental – names of the emission lines) comes from. So how do you know where these emission lines are if they are not where they are supposed to be?

Then Hudson claims that his white powder (which he got from the carbon electrodes) has this amazing property when heated “loses 4/9ths of its weight” and “It actually levitates”. Again present this information first to the general public who has no way of evaluating it. Well…duh! You can’t weigh things accurately if the temperature of the sample is higher from that of the analytical balance. It’s called “weighing error” not levitation. Everything appears to have lost weight when heated. It isn’t a discovery. The conclusions drawn from his experiments are nonsense.

It is nonsense piled on top of more nonsense, piled on top of more nonsense. You believe in such things because the ormus folks threw gold glitter in your eyes and you developed a case of gold fever, and then promised you everlasting life. You believe in this nonsense because it supports your fantasy.

Vlad
06-07-2009, 09:17 PM
Jerry but what do you have to say about the arguments I put forward. Hudson may not have been correct but there certainly is something to this 'ormistry'.

solomon levi
06-08-2009, 12:22 AM
I’m not evaluating this just based on your short description. I’ve been following this since the 90’s. It is not new information.

Again, when someone has a claim of some new discovery, the place to have it evaluated is by the people that have the knowledge and expertise to do such an evaluation. This doesn’t happen to be the general public. The general public will believe just about anything because they do not have the background in such matters to make such an evaluation.

I’ll try to make this a short as possible. The claim that Hudson applied 30 tons of 93% sulfuric per acre of land is totally ridiculous. You don’t have to be a scientist to figure this out.

You expect people to believe that Hudson who “is not a chemist or a physicist” and is a “dirt farmer” goes out and develops an improved spectroscopic technique by reading a Russian book (he also must be fluent in technical Russian) discovers elements in some previously unknown monatomic form which happen to be “orbitally rearranged”. Of course no one else has ever found these things, yet these spectroscopic techniques have been around for decades. His so-called “discovery” is based on analytical error. No such elemental states have ever been detected by other non-destructive laboratory analysis such as x-ray diffraction (only by Hudson), not even by the person that claims to increase the burn time to 300 seconds.

Besides even if these elements exist in a monatomic form, their orbitals are rearranged, according to Hudson. Which means the emission lines of these elements will not be where they are supposed to be, because the emission lines are dependent on the electron orbitals. This is where all the s, p, d, f (Sharp, Principal, Diffuse, Fundamental – names of the emission lines) comes from. So how do you know where these emission lines are if they are not where they are supposed to be?

Then Hudson claims that his white powder (which he got from the carbon electrodes) has this amazing property when heated “loses 4/9ths of its weight” and “It actually levitates”. Again present this information first to the general public who has no way of evaluating it. Well…duh! You can’t weigh things accurately if the temperature of the sample is higher from that of the analytical balance. It’s called “weighing error” not levitation. Everything appears to have lost weight when heated. It isn’t a discovery. The conclusions drawn from his experiments are nonsense.

It is nonsense piled on top of more nonsense, piled on top of more nonsense. You believe in such things because the ormus folks threw gold glitter in your eyes and you developed a case of gold fever, and then promised you everlasting life. You believe in this nonsense because it supports your fantasy.

I'm finished speaking with you on this subject. You didn't hear my other posts... why should I continue if you're not listening. I don't expect anyone to believe anything. I wish you would stop believing so much, then you could hear. I know people have a right to hear information and make up their own minds. Aleilius asked me for this and I provided it for him.


solomon

Jerry
06-08-2009, 09:54 PM
Jerry but what do you have to say about the arguments I put forward. Hudson may not have been correct but there certainly is something to this 'ormistry'.
Hudson may be wrong but it is either the same claim or the same types of claims made under a new name. The words have changed but the concept remains the same. By the time sufficient information becomes available to evaluate a claim, everybody forgot about it because there are another five hundred claims piled on top of it or the person that made the claim disappears down the rabbit hole.

Now your position is and correct me if I’m wrong, is that various elements exist in some monatomic form (like in Dead Sea salt) which can be extracted with various techniques which are then collected. They appear by all observations and analysis to be calcium, magnesium, iron and other known elements, but they are really “something else”. Of course, they can only be manifested into a metallic precious metal state known only to people who are ‘in the know’ by certain methods, and belong to the ormus forums. The fact that all these m-state elements (in the sample) escape detection by established scientific methods isn’t important.

Inversely, since these elements exist in some monatomic form, it is then possible using various chemical techniques to revert precious metals back into the same form which were originally undetectable.

This then appears as your model for Alchemy as supported by unsubstantiated claims. So can you point me to some “original source material” that supports this model?

Vlad
06-09-2009, 06:22 AM
I know of people who have tried conversion back to metal and it worked. I've known these people online for like 7 years now and got an impression of their integrity, and I do not think they were lying.
To me the monoatomic model is just a working model of a theory that can be wrong. I would as much use the term m-stuff as I use monoatomic.

What I find of interest is anomalous things, like the Red Gold that doesn't behave chemically like normal gold, or the green goldchloride solution wherein no gold is detected. Several scientists made it, some according to Hudson's recipe in the patent, some according to modified methods. The outcome is the same.
You start with gold. Dissolve it. Goldchloride. Analyze in a lab: gold detected. Process it further to green chloride. Analyze in a lab. No gold detected or like 1% of original.

These are claims that can be reproduced. They are not just Hudson's.

Vlad
06-09-2009, 06:36 AM
As for the claims of loss of weight and antigravity and superconductivity. I agree there is not much evidence. That does not mean there is nothing to it. Hudson or others could be hiding information.

I am not terribly interested in antigravity/superconductivity verification. I am interested in making the red lion. So for now I will not terribly research antigravity and superconductivity and keep an open mind about it.

However I must say I have experienced an anomalous effect when working with m-gold.
I boiled microscopically fine gold dust in a Na3PO4 solution for a few hours in an open stainless steel pot. Then I took a small eyedropper squirt of the alkali solution and squirted it in a glass of water to see if a white precipitate would drop. I did this because I noticed at times repeating the same process I did not get a white precipitate after adjustin the pH, so I did not want to titrate the whole solution but tried a small sample and would boil it further if I got no precipitate.

So I squirted about a ml in 250 ml or so of distilled water (enough water to dillute the alkali and lower the pH enough to get a precipitate), and got a white milky precipitate to form. Success apparently.

But I noticed a field emanating from the glass of water with the white precipitate in it. When I held my hand above the beaker, it felt similar to magnetic push/pull from magnets when you hold magnets. Except not attractive or repulsive, but definitely similar feeling.
Coincidentally a friend passed by right when I was testing this, and I let him 'feel' it to, and he felt it too.
This was a strange energetic effect. I don't know what kind of force it would be, but there is something to it.

I have never felt it from anything else and was not able to reproduce it. Is it related to superconductivity? I don't think so. But the effect was there and convinced me there is something to this m-gold.

Should you want to try to reproduce this, I suggest you use trisodiumphosphate and not sodium hydroxide. I and another researcher suspect the phosphate is doing something and this was also stated in an alchemy book from the 1800s that phosphoric acid (phosphate) dissolves gold and phosphor is the cause of metallicity and is being highest in gold.

I have also noticed when I added 80% phosphoric acid to a red gold precipitate (ether extracted from black sand dissolved in aqua regia), that upon reprecipitation, it turned out white. Phosphoric acid should not react with gold at all but it apparently did.

Jerry
06-09-2009, 10:51 PM
What I find of interest is anomalous things, like the Red Gold that doesn't behave chemically like normal gold, or the green goldchloride solution wherein no gold is detected. Several scientists made it, some according to Hudson's recipe in the patent, some according to modified methods. The outcome is the same.
You start with gold. Dissolve it. Goldchloride. Analyze in a lab: gold detected. Process it further to green chloride. Analyze in a lab. No gold detected or like 1% of original.
In the real world, the idea behind chemical analysis is to prepare a substance into a form which can be detected by whatever method within a certain degree of accuracy and repeatability. In the world of ormus, the idea is to prepare samples so they do not analyze properly, then claim stuff disappears. Errors can always be reproduced but they are still errors.

As for the claims of loss of weight and antigravity and superconductivity. I agree there is not much evidence. That does not mean there is nothing to it. Hudson or others could be hiding information.
Yes, the ol’ conspiracy theories, matters of national security, etc. Hudson’s claim of levitation is pure nonsense. He clearly describes what he is doing. And he makes the following claims about his O.R.M.E.S. (now called m-stuff):

“They can be used to levitate vehicles, other objects or the human body.”

“The enormous (or en-ormus?) stone blocks of the pyramids were levitated into position by gathering 20-30 people around each one.”

“You can levitate.”

“You can walk on water.”

“It is flowing so much light within you that you literally don’t attract gravity.”

Praise the Lord, it’s ormistry. Hudson sure derived a lot of information out of “weighing error”.

And no, I’m not about to follow your lead. I asked for a model and so I guess it is the “same old, same old”.

I follow the model as set forth by Fulcanelli (Dwellings) which also happens to be in concordance with the other masters:

“The masters of the art teach us that the goal of their labors is triple. What they seek to realize first is the universal Medicine or the actual philosophers’ stone. Obtained in a saline form, whether multiplied or not, it can only be used for the healing of human illnesses, preservation of health, and growth of plants. Soluble in any alcoholic liquid, its solution takes the name of Aurum Potabile (although it does not even contain the least atom of gold because it assumes a magnificent yellow color). Its healing value and the diversity of its use in therapeutics makes it a precious auxiliary in the treatment of grave and incurable ailments.”

I’ll keep it simple like in KISS: There is no gold in Aurum potabile. Further on Fulcanelli states:

“Finally, if we ferment the solid, universal Medicine with very pure gold or silver, through direct fusion, we obtain the Powder of Projection, third form of the Stone. It is a translucent mass, red or white according to the chosen metal, pulverizable, and appropriate only to metallic transmutation. Oriented, determined, and specific to the mineral realm, it is useless and without action in the other two kingdoms.”

Note: “it is useless and without action in the other two kingdoms” which means it is futile to try to find 300 different solvents for gold and silver in order to make the Universal Medicine. You first need to make the Universal Medicine aka Aurum potabile, not the other way around.

Vlad
06-10-2009, 03:20 AM
In the real world, the idea behind chemical analysis is to prepare a substance into a form which can be detected by whatever method within a certain degree of accuracy and repeatability. In the world of ormus, the idea is to prepare samples so they do not analyze properly, then claim stuff disappears. Errors can always be reproduced but they are still errors.

You are wrong unless you can prove it's an error, or an error in the analytical procedures or machinery used for analysis. The green goldchloride solution preparation has been patented and reproduced by several scientists. What proof do you have to claim it is an error and not a novel chemical discovery? Chemistry is not an exact science. The chemical theories are attempting to provide as good as possible working models to describe the chemical workings in the observed real world. In that real world, you can repeatedly make a green goldchloride solution that the theory held by most chemists cannot adequately account for. It is more likely the theory is wrong than that nature is wrong.

What is the green goldchloride solution if it does not analyze gold? Are the machines and the processed used in the analysis deficient? That is a possibiliy. More likely than claiming it's an error.


I follow the model as set forth by Fulcanelli (Dwellings) which also happens to be in concordance with the other masters

I don't believe anything. Not even the words of masters. Deceitful are many.

Why would I believe Fulcanalli or the dozens of other 'masters' who've all written *contradictory* things?

And as to the claim there is no gold in Aurum Potabile. Prove that. If it has a yellow color is that not likely due to gold ions like in dilluted goldchloride? That is what a chemist imo would think at first if you say Aurum Potabile is yellow yet there is a claim it contains no gold.
don't believe Fulcanelli's word. I rather test things myself to see if these 'masters' were not really trying to trick or play word games.

But let's get back to 'ormus' for a second.
Barry Carter's friend Jim used to have this mining accident in which he got a severe shot of heavy metals and apparently 'ormus' in his blood. During that period, his sweat dissolved gold when brushed against gold plated paintings. Isn't that strange? What could be in sweat that dissolves gold? Cyanide? Unlikely. Strong halogens? Even more so. Gold oil sweated out? Seems more plausible. The 'masters' say that the mercury of gold, it's own water, will dissolve it's body. If the 'oil' form of 'ormus gold' is really that mercury of gold, be it monoatomics or diatomics or whatever, it seems to match the alchemical theory that an oil, the mercury, extracted from the metallic body of gold dissolved the metallic body.

Recently someone on the ormus list posted he noticed something interesting. If you take the 'wet method' sea water ormus precipitate, and dissolve it in water, it raises the ORP of the water. That wet method precipitate is mostly magnesium and calcium hydroxide, nothing in it that should chemically account for raising ORP. Unless there really is a small amount of ormus 'oil' or 'mercury' in it and this is linked to the raised ORP and could account for the dissolving action of this 'oil' on metals.

Jerry
06-11-2009, 02:59 AM
What is the green goldchloride solution if it does not analyze gold? Are the machines and the processed used in the analysis deficient? That is a possibiliy. More likely than claiming it's an error.
Could you tell me where in a peer-reviewed scientific journal I can read about this “green goldchloride”?

And as to the claim there is no gold in Aurum Potabile. Prove that. If it has a yellow color is that not likely due to gold ions like in dilluted goldchloride? That is what a chemist imo would think at first if you say Aurum Potabile is yellow yet there is a claim it contains no gold.
don't believe Fulcanelli's word. I rather test things myself to see if these 'masters' were not really trying to trick or play word games.

You’re right, a solution of gold chloride is yellow. And so are a thousand other chemical solutions. So why can’t it be “something else”?

But let's get back to 'ormus' for a second.
Barry Carter's friend Jim used to have this mining accident in which he got a severe shot of heavy metals and apparently 'ormus' in his blood. During that period, his sweat dissolved gold when brushed against gold plated paintings. Isn't that strange? What could be in sweat that dissolves gold? Cyanide? Unlikely. Strong halogens? Even more so. Gold oil sweated out? Seems more plausible.
Yes, a shot of ormus can really mess you up.
I’m quite sure the folks will hear this and other such stories at the Alchemy Conference.
Here’s mine: The eagle delivers my mail and Jesus fell out of my shopping bag from the ceiling.

The 'masters' say that the mercury of gold, it's own water, will dissolve it's body. If the 'oil' form of 'ormus gold' is really that mercury of gold, be it monoatomics or diatomics or whatever, it seems to match the alchemical theory that an oil, the mercury, extracted from the metallic body of gold dissolved the metallic body.
But you said: “I don't believe anything. Not even the words of masters. Deceitful are many.”

It seems you got part of this right. Gold dissolves in its own water (Mercury). If you go to the Tyrocinium Chymicum, page 20, and read what is Mercury it says:

“Mercury is that Acid, permeable, penetrable, Aetheral, and most pure Liquor, whence is all nutrition, sense, motion, virtues, colours, and the retardation of over hasty age. It is made of the Element of Air, and Water: and indeed to the first, as far as it is altered by approaching heat, it vanishes into air; but as to the other, so far as it is difficulty bound in its own proper limits, it is easily contained in another Terminum.”

The “Gold” and the “Mercury” come from a single substance which is why there is no gold in Aurum potabile. You seem to be of the opinion that you take metallic gold (Au) and dissolve it in some acid/solvent (Mercury) and drink that (without slowly poisoning yourself).

Recently someone on the ormus list posted he noticed something interesting. If you take the 'wet method' sea water ormus precipitate, and dissolve it in water, it raises the ORP of the water. That wet method precipitate is mostly magnesium and calcium hydroxide, nothing in it that should chemically account for raising ORP. Unless there really is a small amount of ormus 'oil' or 'mercury' in it and this is linked to the raised ORP and could account for the dissolving action of this 'oil' on metals.
When calcium and magnesium hydroxides become “sea water ormus precipitate” red flags should go up because it is cult terminology. Before this, these precipitates were monatomic precious elements which could be converted into a metallic state. This is stuff that can only be believed by the naïve and gullible.

Vlad
06-11-2009, 06:09 AM
Could you tell me where in a peer-reviewed scientific journal I can read about this “green goldchloride”?
I can't, because I don't know of any peer reviewed studies on the green goldchloride. It does not mean it is not a valid scientific process or novel discovery. Peer review only adds credibility. It does not mean because more 'experts' voice their opinion on a matter that this makes the subject less or more true.


You’re right, a solution of gold chloride is yellow. And so are a thousand other chemical solutions. So why can’t it be “something else”?

Only pure gold, HCl, NaCl, and H2O2 or HNO3 enter the reaction to produce it. There are not many reaction products one can produce with these substances that turn green.


Yes, a shot of ormus can really mess you up.
I’m quite sure the folks will hear this and other such stories at the Alchemy Conference.
Here’s mine: The eagle delivers my mail and Jesus fell out of my shopping bag from the ceiling.

In "A Rosicrucian Handbook" by Willy Schrodter (I think it's that one, don't want to look it up now) there is a process to dissolve gold leaf by pounding it with one's sweat.

To me, information is data which can be true or false, and I usually tag as 'unknown' in my mind. When a big collection of data shows patterns of repetition and matches alchemical writings, the data in my mind appears likely to be more true (having assumed through the same process previously that alchemy is likely true), possibly more true, because it shows correlations. I have not validated it or tested it, but I have noticed uniform patterns forming in my mind that have nice harmonic relationships with all the data, and as such a model appears, and new data usually fits this model nicely.

I have no problem with the data that Jim's sweat dissolved gold. You obviously have. Either my model or your model is more correct.

I am not about to try to replicate Jim's experiences because I do not have access to a mine with tailings, to his special ozonating equipment, and do not want to reproduce poisoning myself. I would however try to add a shot of high energy ormus to my body if I would know how and see if my sweat dissolves gold better.

I also do not want to try pounding gold leaf with my sweat. This process however shows a pattern of repetition correlating with Jim's experiences.


The “Gold” and the “Mercury” come from a single substance which is why there is no gold in Aurum potabile. You seem to be of the opinion that you take metallic gold (Au) and dissolve it in some acid/solvent (Mercury) and drink that (without slowly poisoning yourself).

'Mercury' is present in any metal say alchemical texts. I am indeed of the opinion that one should be able to take that' mercury' and dissolve (gold) metal without poisoning oneself, because according to the theory, when you have the correct 'mercury', and add metal, the mix should radically dissolve and turn black, then white, then red.


When calcium and magnesium hydroxides become “sea water ormus precipitate” red flags should go up because it is cult terminology. Before this, these precipitates were monatomic precious elements which could be converted into a metallic state. This is stuff that can only be believed by the naïve and gullible.

Some people have reported converting this stuff to precious metal.
There are no peer reviewed studies on this.

Vlad
06-11-2009, 06:25 AM
You seem to be of the opinion that you take metallic gold (Au) and dissolve it in some acid/solvent (Mercury) and drink that (without slowly poisoning yourself).

I am of the opinion if you take metallic gold, and dissolve it in an acid, that you can with acid, go to the 'mercury' stage of gold (apparently the green goldchloride stage or beyond), and that this 'mercury' should then be extractable, or left in solution apparently as the chloride, or mixed in with the chloride.

Some people have reported extracting a clear oil from substances usin diethyl ether, and this oil when heated turned red and let go a volatile spirit. This to me seems to correlate with alchemical patterns of the mercury that has to be heated to turn red.

Some people have repoted if you incubate the green goldchloride, you can end up with a red product (after neutralization of the acid and precipitation out) that is claimed to be the red lion.

I think what could have happened is that in this greengoldchloride, oil or 'mercury' of gold formed, that irrelevantly of the acid, further worked on the gold metal particles, or did not, and simply with incubation turned red, and adhered to the gold metal particles, or perhaps to the 'earth' or 'salt' of gold in solution from possibly decomposed gold metal (since no gold metal in the ppb range shows in scanning the green goldchloride), and recomposed itself as a form of the stone, likely not the fusible waxy multiplied stone, but at least in the right direction. It ends up as a precipitated brick red powder.

I have talked to people (alchemists) who have gotten this red precipitated powder to transmute. It appears to be a gold salt or linked to a gold salt (like I said recombined gold mercury with possible salt or earth of gold) so I would agree it does not fit descriptions of many alchemical texts that describe the stone as waxy and fusible, but since it transmutes, which is described in texts as a test for the stone, it appears to be at least partially right.

I do not believe there are 'particulars' like some alchemists claims. The texts say the transmuting ability is the test for the stone. If it tranmutes metals, it also transmutes the body.

I also believe that dissolving a metal in acid is not a bad thing, but usually has you end up with metallic particles of metal, unless the dissolution is done in particular ways and you end up with some 'oil' of the metal, which could catalyze further dissolution of the metal, turning it all into 'oil' and decomposed metal products.

Hence I have no problem with using modern chemical techniques on metal.

Ghislain
06-11-2009, 09:48 AM
Here is a, more in depth, transcript of that which Solomon Levi posted

www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/hudson.txt

"Don't shoot the messenger", is a good point to remember Jerry ;)

solomon levi
06-11-2009, 11:15 PM
Here is a, more in depth, transcript of that which Solomon Levi posted

www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/hudson.txt

"Don't shoot the messenger", is a good point to remember Jerry ;)


Not the exact place and date, but yes, this talk is very similar and includes
all the salient points I wanted to communicate.
Thanks Ghislain.

Jerry
06-12-2009, 12:22 AM
Only pure gold, HCl, NaCl, and H2O2 or HNO3 enter the reaction to produce it. There are not many reaction products one can produce with these substances that turn green.

“Our Stone is made from only one thing, in one only Vessel, for our whole Magistery is made with, from and by our Water, which Water is so powerful, as to bring bodies into (cineres,) Ashes, Coals or Cinders, and the Whitens them. – Chymical Axioms, VI, Alchymists Enchiridion.

“18. All other things, as Salts, Aloms, Vitriols, Borax’s, Aqua Fortis’s, etc. being unprofitable and good for nothing.” – Practica Mirabilis, Alchymists Enchiridion.


In "A Rosicrucian Handbook" by Willy Schrodter (I think it's that one, don't want to look it up now) there is a process to dissolve gold leaf by pounding it with one's sweat.

Think about it.


To me, information is data which can be true or false, and I usually tag as 'unknown' in my mind. When a big collection of data shows patterns of repetition and matches alchemical writings, the data in my mind appears likely to be more true (having assumed through the same process previously that alchemy is likely true), possibly more true, because it shows correlations. I have not validated it or tested it, but I have noticed uniform patterns forming in my mind that have nice harmonic relationships with all the data, and as such a model appears, and new data usually fits this model nicely.

I’m not sure what alchemical writings you are reading. You are starting with a conclusion because it was fed to you that metallic gold (Au) needs to dissolved in some solvent other than its own water so you can drink it.

“But it is to be knowne and observed, that this Medicine of gold, though made of one body…” – Aurum Potabile. “One body” is the same as “one thing”, not two, six, ten, etc.


I am not about to try to replicate Jim's experiences because I do not have access to a mine with tailings, to his special ozonating equipment, and do not want to reproduce poisoning myself. I would however try to add a shot of high energy ormus to my body if I would know how and see if my sweat dissolves gold better.

I think you are doing just fine. It’s okay.


'Mercury' is present in any metal say alchemical texts. I am indeed of the opinion that one should be able to take that' mercury' and dissolve (gold) metal without poisoning oneself, because according to the theory, when you have the correct 'mercury', and add metal, the mix should radically dissolve and turn black, then white, then red.

The Gold and Mercury come from the same substance. You don’t have to add anything.


The texts say the transmuting ability is the test for the stone. If it tranmutes metals, it also transmutes the body.

According to Fulcanelli (Dwellings), “Obtained in a saline form, whether multiplied or not, it can only be used for the healing of human illnesses, preservation of health, and growth of plants.”

Does any of these gold preparations have any effect on the growth of plants?

How do you account for this “certain smell of the grave”?

Vlad
06-12-2009, 06:23 AM
According to Fulcanelli (Dwellings), “Obtained in a saline form, whether multiplied or not, it can only be used for the healing of human illnesses, preservation of health, and growth of plants.”

Does any of these gold preparations have any effect on the growth of plants?

Actually it does.
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/walnuts.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/plants.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/ormusplants.htm

Also on mammals
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/tutstail.htm
(there is also a video clip somewhere about ormus in which the cat is seen so it's likely not fake unless someone had real good video editing skills)

I read that with the stone you can grow trees that need hot climate in cold climate and have multiple flowerings a year. I think one needs the highly charged or multiplied gold ormus for that which I think is linked to the stone. I don't know of anyone who tested gold on plants though. Most tests were done with general platina group elements ormus and that already gave these big crops and plants.



How do you account for this “certain smell of the grave”?

I recall something to that extent but ascribed to what? You didn't mention in your post. From what I recall this smell is ascribed to the black stage?

Seth-Ra
06-12-2009, 07:43 AM
Actually it does.
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/walnuts.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/plants.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/ormusplants.htm

Also on mammals
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/tutstail.htm
(there is also a video clip somewhere about ormus in which the cat is seen so it's likely not fake unless someone had real good video editing skills)

I read that with the stone you can grow trees that need hot climate in cold climate and have multiple flowerings a year. I think one needs the highly charged or multiplied gold ormus for that which I think is linked to the stone. I don't know of anyone who tested gold on plants though. Most tests were done with general platina group elements ormus and that already gave these big crops and plants.


Personally, ive not been all that interested in the whole ORMUS thing, but with "buzz" like this (especially since ive recently been thinking about things of similar nature) im going to, apparently, have to believe there is something to it, very well Alchemical.

So, thanks Vlad for posting the links and allowing for a "perception-shift". Very interesting stuff indeed...

*fades back to continue to watch the conversation as before*

:)

Jerry
06-13-2009, 12:36 AM
I asked: “Does any of these gold preparations have any effect on the growth of plants?”

Vlad replied: “Actually it does.”

Then after the pitch and buzz, Vlad stated: “I don't know of anyone who tested gold on plants though.”; but the question had to do with Fulcanelli’s statement concerning Aurum potabile, “Obtained in a saline form, whether multiplied or not, it can only be used for the healing of human illnesses, preservation of health, and growth of plants.”, so I guess the answer is actually…NO.

But Vlad went on to defend the en-ormus buzz by saying, “Most tests were done with general platina group elements ormus and that already gave these big crops and plants.”, yet in a previous post Vlad stated that “sea water ormus precipitate” was calcium and magnesium hydroxides and Vlad could not provide any proof, just claims, that precious metals were contained in that precipitate, much less recoverable. There is no such thing as “ormus”.

My favorite water soluble all purpose plant food says right on the box, “The Fast Way to Bigger, More Beautiful Plants” but it is not the Aurum potabile either.

Something more along the lines Fulcanelli is talking about concerning the growth of plants:

“Shortly after the dissolucon of Bath Abbey, upon the pulling downe some of the Walls, there was a Glasse fond in a Wall full of Red Tincture, which being flung away to a dunghill, forthwith it coloured it, exceeding red. This dunghill (or Rubish) was after fetched away by Boate by Bathwicke men, and layd in Bathwicke field, and in the places where it was spread, for a long tyme after, the Corne grew wonderfully ranke, thick and high: insomuch as it was there look'd upon as a wonder.” - Ashmole's account of Tincture found at Bath Abbey.

How a Magus in a Wondrous way Shall Multiply and Generate all Manners of Trees and Fruits, Herbs and Flowers.

Now how to in Magic Manner Grow and Multiply all Trees, Fruits, Grains, Herbs and Flowers, that such bring hundredfold, yea, thousandfold Fruit, and happens in this Manner:

Take of the red Tincture, solve such in Dew or Rainwater (to one Loth 20 pounds of water), in this water soak grains or just moisten them, let them dry again, then sow in a good field, then one grain will give 50 yea, 60 ears of corn and gives large fruit. Thus it is with other Seeds.

To make Trees fruitful, solve of the Lapis 1 Quintl in 1 Pound Rainwater, make a Hole beside the Tree down to its Root, and drill a Hole in the same, have a Vessel ready, that has a Hole in the bottom, so that you can stick a tube into it; and this tube stick into the Hole in the Root, tighten everything well with a wax putty and pour the Solution in the Vessel. This do in the Springtime , when the Trees are in growth and about to Bloom, then you will see Wonders, as such Trees turn Green, Bloom and become full of Fruit; the same is the case with other Growths. But if one wishes in the middle of the Winter to bring a Tree or other Plant into Growth and Blooming, that it also carry Fruits or Flowers, then set the Tree or whatever you wish in your Living room by the Window, so as not to be too close to the Heat, solve some of your Stone in Rainwater and water your Growth then and when with it, at the same time water it once or twice with the Liquor, that you have driven out of the Magnesia, then the Tree will begin to Grow, and Bloom. Keep it just moistened, that it standeth not to wet, then soon it will set Plentiful Fruit. Maintain thus until ripe. The same goes for Flowers.

Our beloved Forefathers have just taken an Earth out of the Cattle barns, (solvated, washed out) such, reduced the solvate, until the Salt, calcined the Salt slightly, then resolved in Rainwater, then it is prepared. With such a (solvate) they have moistened the Seeds and then sown, also watered the Trees with it, but carefully, thus they also achieved the Multiplication. Yes they have during Spring, when it was dry weather, Watered their Meadows with such in the evening, so the Sun could not draw it out, and it might better find its way into the Earth and down to the Roots and thus brought their fields to Multiplication. This they Mastered with all Manner of Seeds, so that they from simple Flowers got Beautiful ones, of a sour Fruit the fairest Sweetest one, of a small Fruit a large one was gotten. They Transformed their Meadows and Gardens, and their Fields into a Fruitful Paradise, and created a thousand fold Fruit, because they knew well, what was the Fat of the Earth, yea what the Mark of the Soil hid in itself, and when such was concentrated, that such would draw the Heavenly Dew to it and into it in a magnetical Manner, and thus found Mysterium Magnum, where ever they turned, yea the Blessing from above. They found palpably, what Hermes says, that that, which is below, is like to that, that is above, with which one can work Wonders.

Translated from:
Archarion: Von wahrer Alchemie.
Thesaurus Thesaurorum A Fraternitate Rosae et Aureae Crucis

Stories like Jack and the Beanstalk are based on such effects which having nothing to do with this imaginary “ormus”, but plant hormones.

Fulcanelli mentions the “smell of the grave” and also the acidity (Mercury).:

“It must show some acidity and have a certain smell of the grave. Philalethes says that it must appear like fish’s eye, that is to say little bubbles on the surface, and it must appear to foam…” – Le Mystère des Cathédrales, pg. 80, English Ed.

The “smell of the grave” is mentioned in other texts:

“The Black aforesaid is an evident sign, that in the beginning the Matter and Composition doth begin to purge it self, and to dissolve into small Powder, less than the Motes in the Sun; or a glutinous Water, which feeling the heat, will ascend and descend in the Glass: at length it will thicken and congeal, and become like Pitch, exceeding Black; in the end it will become a Body, and Earth, which some call Terra foetida; for then by reason of the perfect Putrefaction, it will have a scent or stink like unto Graves newly opened…” – Colours to be Observed in the Great Work.

“That these are called Stinking Menstruums, because of their stinking smell. By the smell alone we easily distinguish these from those fragrant Menstruums called Vegetable. Thus the unsavoury smell of the Menstruum it self proves that Morienus used the Stinking Menstruum. What is the smell of it, saith King Calid, by way of Question, before and after the making of it? Morienus answereth, Before it is made, the sent of it is strong and unsavoury; but after the preparation of it, it has a good sent, according to that which the wise man saith: This Water resembles the unpleasant smell of a Body dead, and void of life; for the smell of it is ill, and not unlike to the smell of Graves:” – Secrets of the Adepts or Of the Use of Lully’s Spirit of Wine – Weidenfeld.

Although this doesn’t specifically mention the “smell of the grave”, it is similar:

“And also you must also understand that this water, menstruum or philosophical spirit of wine dissolves its own corpus or living mercurium into the original essence or water, and is then multiplied ceaselessly through the putrefaction and the distillation. What is said of the extract of this water is confirmed by Arnoldus de Villa Nova when he says: It is a substance full of foul smelling vapours and which contains a gross moisture. From this substance the artist separates the philosophical
moisture which is easy to work with and which is as clear as tears.” - A Magnificent and Select Tract on Philosophical Water.

So Vlad, how does all of this Alchemy, found in the “original source material”, compare to what you do in “ormistry”?

Vlad
06-13-2009, 08:38 AM
People have gotten precious metal out of sea water and other ormus precipitates where no precious metal showed up in analysis before conversion of the supposed ormus to precious metal. And more specifically gold and silver palladium rhodium and iridium. Doesn't that appear strange that it's exactly the elements Hudson claims are non detectable and in orme form?
The sea water preciptiate contains a little gold ormus. It might be the component that has action on plants. I don't think it's the sole responsible component but you apparently ignored this in your 'ormus dissing'.



Stories like Jack and the Beanstalk are based on such effects which having nothing to do with this imaginary “ormus”, but plant hormones.


Where is your proof?



So Vlad, how does all of this Alchemy, found in the “original source material”, compare to what you do in “ormistry”?

Several texts and authors including Fulcanelli also say that there is a short dry way contrary to the long tedious way the philosophers liked to write about. This short dry way is completed in a few days at most and the appearance of the resulting stone is usually not at all like the one from the long wet way (the one with the beautiful observation of the great work it's stages and colors etc). Yet they say it also yields the stone.
It is very possible 'ormistry' yields such a form of the stone.

What is your real arguement against ormus actually? I never said it's the stone. I only presented some facts that ormus is anomalous and appears to have some links to alchemy yet you ignored it because it's not supported by textual evidence.

Like I said people have gotten transmuting powders from ormistry. Isn't that alchemy or what? Do you chose to believe the texts that you must pass the black stage, the colors, etc, have all the signs as described by the philosophers, in order to end up with what the texts claim is the stone? What is the philosophers really were misleading and wrote about the tedious long philosophic way as Fulcanelli claims? Why believe them actually? How can you even be so sure the stone exists? And if you are or if it does, what's the point? Making metal? Extending life? Spiritual effects? Going to the garden of the philosophers? For all it's worth that can be made up. And yes I'm even aware of the claims that say if you take a drop of the stone in water you will see the recreation of the garden of eden or the manifestation of the world.

The long wet way appears to work by making a philosphical mercury from mercury metal animated and seeded, or from lead.
I'd like to avoid working with toxic chemicals. If I can make a transmuting powder from pure gold that has action on the growth of plants, and has spiritual effects, I'd rather focus on that for now than focus on distilling antimony butters and mercury just to match the texts of the philosphers.
You really think nature wanted alchemists to specifially look for mercury and antimony and gold metal and ores in order to perform metallic alchemy? Or melt sand to make glass to produce distillation sets and all that stuff?
Ormus seems a more likely canditate for the Fat of the Earth than anything extracted from some ore. Ormus is everywhere, it matches the philosophy of the dew of the philosophers.
If you understand the way ormus works in nature, you'll also understand you can make the stone from practically anything, as most things natural contain ormus. And you don't need metals or ores and there is no division between the animal plant and mineral realms (where is the 'philosphers' their proof for this division anyway?) and there is no harm in using acids or corrosives yet you can work without, it matches the admonitions against their usage and supports those who did use them.

Vlad
06-13-2009, 08:55 AM
Also, I know you're a chemist. Shouldn't you be aware of the fact that many hydrocarbons have smells, and that the smells ascribed to the stages of the great work could be the result of the formation of such aromatic hydrocarbons and related aromatic stinking compounds?

Certain 'ormus philosophy' states that the gold ormus is a volatile gas, just like some texts of alchemy say, it's a spiritual gold. The way ormistry works is by manipulating that gas through chemical means. The Hudson method appears to use sodium. Other methods appear to use hydrocarbons. These substances appear to be something like 'carriers' or 'magnets'.
The smells you smell in the great work could just be from the chemistry of the carrier molecules for the spiritual gold, and the whole purpose be to fix the volatile ormus gas in a concentrated way in a fixed body. Isn't that what the stone of the philosophers has also been claimed to be, that is a substance that abounds in tinging spirits?

Also how do you explain Merelle's work? She starts with gold metal worked/precipitated in a manner very similar to 'ormistry' techniques. Then she mentions dew and is vague, and incubated to yield the stone.
People have gotten 'ormus fat' extracted from dew with solvents. This ormus fat turned red when heated and let go a volatile spirit. Philosophically, this fat would be the mercury, and when heated, turning red, the sulfur. When dew containing this fat would be added to a small particles gold salt like Merelle started with, it is very possible that over the course of all the months heating, the fat in the dew, worked on the gold particles, dissolving them all into ormus fat of gold, and then by correct heating turned them to the sulfur, but without loss of the volatile spirit, but correctly conjoined to it's sulfur. That's just a rough sketch of how I see it could happen. You have a better way of explaining the way it could work in practical terms? Not philosphical.

Jerry
06-14-2009, 12:35 AM
People have gotten precious metal out of sea water and other ormus precipitates where no precious metal showed up in analysis before conversion of the supposed ormus to precious metal. And more specifically gold and silver palladium rhodium and iridium. Doesn't that appear strange that it's exactly the elements Hudson claims are non detectable and in orme form?

Doesn’t it appear even stranger that only certain people find this and promote it? Of course these elements are non-detectable. They don’t exist. It seems possible though, to convince the naïve and gullible that they do.


The sea water preciptiate contains a little gold ormus. It might be the component that has action on plants.

Yes, provide the goofiest answer you can. We do live in the 21st century. Plant hormones have been studied and documented and they can cause anything from increased germination to wild and weird growing plants. Look it up.


What is your real arguement against ormus actually? I never said it's the stone. I only presented some facts that ormus is anomalous and appears to have some links to alchemy yet you ignored it because it's not supported by textual evidence.

If this has nothing to do with Alchemy, why is it on an Alchemy forum?

“I never said it was the stone” but, “It is very possible ‘ormistry’ yields such a form of the stone”, and then, “Isn’t that alchemy or what?”, followed by, “How can you even be so sure the stone exists?”.

The only support for the subject are the texts. If you are not in agreement with the texts, you have nothing, just hot air. There are no methods of precipitation of various sea salts in the alchemical literature. This is something that somebody made up and called it Alchemy, which it isn’t.


And if you are or if it does, what's the point?

Hudson made a point in 1994, “The choice to partake of it [white powder] will be yours. If you don’t believe it, fine; it’s not going to go away because you don’t believe it”. “This is the New World Order – but NOT the one George Bush saw.”

Mind control.


Like I said people have gotten transmuting powders from ormistry.

Sure. So why present this information here and not to people that can investigate the claim scientifically? I’ll answer the question for you: because it is nonsense. Only a few people here are likely to believe it, but that will be a few more to “spread the word”.


I'd like to avoid working with toxic chemicals. If I can make a transmuting powder from pure gold that has action on the growth of plants, and has spiritual effects, I'd rather focus on that for now than focus on distilling antimony butters and mercury just to match the texts of the philosphers.

Yes, it is much better to ingest the toxic gold to have some permanent spiritual effect.


The long wet way appears to work by making a philosphical mercury from mercury metal animated and seeded, or from lead.

That shows your ignorance of the subject. Most people who have studied Alchemy know that words like mercury, antimony, gold, etc. are decknamen or assumed names and the words are not to be taken literally.


Ormus seems a more likely canditate for the Fat of the Earth than anything extracted from some ore. Ormus is everywhere, it matches the philosophy of the dew of the philosophers.
If you understand the way ormus works in nature, you'll also understand you can make the stone from practically anything, as most things natural contain ormus.

You can’t really discuss the subject of Alchemy without using the word “ormus”, can you?


Shouldn't you be aware of the fact that many hydrocarbons have smells, and that the smells ascribed to the stages of the great work could be the result of the formation of such aromatic hydrocarbons and related aromatic stinking compounds?

Gosh, never thought about it. Substances like cadaverine and putrescine never crossed my mind. There could however be another explanation for this odor of the “smell of graves” which might be an effect of the preparation of the Philosophical Spirit of Wine:

“Parosmia involves a distortion of the sense of smell -- the affected person reports smelling something other than the scent which is present -- for example, the person sniffs a banana but it smells like rotting flesh instead of a banana.”

“Among the unpleasant scents often reported by those suffering from parosmia or phantosmia are the smells of death (rotting flesh), feces, vomit, garbage, and smoke.”

“One potential cause of olfactory hallucinations is epilepsy. While most people think of epilepsy as involving the motor system, it does not necessarily do so. One can have epilepsy that has absolutely no involvement with one's muscles. Such epilepsy can cause hallucinations, strange thoughts, emotional feelings, etc. without any sort of muscular convulsion. If the olfactory cortex were involved, olfactory hallucinations would be present. If the visual cortex were involved, visual hallucinations would be present, etc.”

Source: http://personal.ecu.edu/wuenschk/parosmia.htm

Maybe this is why the alchemists were looking for cures for the “falling sickness “.:)


Also how do you explain Merelle's work? She starts with gold metal worked/precipitated in a manner very similar to 'ormistry' techniques. Then she mentions dew and is vague, and incubated to yield the stone.

I’m not aware of anyone that has completed this. I can see the claims a comin’. This does seem to be similar to Dr. Anthony’s “Third Form” in the book Aurum Potabile and does not use metallic gold. The word “gold” is another deckname.

solomon levi
06-14-2009, 01:15 AM
There are alchemical works with sea salt. Sometimes they call it Bay salt,
for the manner in which it was collected, sometimes it is called Chemalus.
I've already shared some in that thread.

And I could post pages of alchemists working with common mercury to
make it philosophical, but I don't care to work with mercury either.
(I was recently rather annoyed at how many processes in Digby's
"Collection" involved common mercury.)
Not that that is the only mercury, but there are plenty of alchemists
who worked with common mercury... some also worked with common
sulphur, and some worked with common salt.
Common sulphur has been used by many to make a calx of gold.
Likewise, many use/d common mercury to the same end.
Others used acids, like "ormistry" does, to end up with the same result as well - a calx of gold.

You must not be very well-read Jerry. Are you sure you're an authority
on this subject?

As for one path alone to be true, I've just given three proven ways to make a
calx from gold, which is often one of the gates one must pass through - though there
are other mercuries/menstruums that act upon leaf gold instead of the calx.
I can give several ways to make leaf gold if you like... pound it with a hammer,
pound it with a rock, run over it with a train... :)
Either way, you still end up with leaf gold;
and either way as mentioned above, you still end up with a calx or precipitate of gold.
Are some methods more philosophical than others? Sure. But one could say that
about everything in life. So if that's your path, you've got to be prepared to make
your whole life philosophical and not just the stone - they can't happen seperately.

If one really understands what "philosophical" means, and one sees the alchemical/hermetic
axiom "as above, so below", then the only reasonable conclusion is that every dead word to
fall out of our mouths inhibits our acomplishing the stone.

But we could argue the need for philosophical ingredients. Much about calx of gold
is simply aimed at getting it smaller and smaller. When you get down to atoms, there's
no such thing as a dead (unphilosophical) atom. They're all very much alive.
What does it matter if the metal or ore is alive if all you want is its atoms?
Perhaps the spagyrists found a way around the true alchemists conditions.

Aleilius
06-14-2009, 02:52 AM
“The masters of the art teach us that the goal of their labors is triple. What they seek to realize first is the universal Medicine or the actual philosophers’ stone. Obtained in a saline form, whether multiplied or not, it can only be used for the healing of human illnesses, preservation of health, and growth of plants. Soluble in any alcoholic liquid, its solution takes the name of Aurum Potabile (although it does not even contain the least atom of gold because it assumes a magnificent yellow color). Its healing value and the diversity of its use in therapeutics makes it a precious auxiliary in the treatment of grave and incurable ailments.”
The color of the Aurum Potabile is related to sulphur principle of the work. Just as gold, sulphur also takes on a perfect yellow color. This Universal Medicine is one of the great wonders produced during the concoction of the Stone.


Also, I know you're a chemist. Shouldn't you be aware of the fact that many hydrocarbons have smells, and that the smells ascribed to the stages of the great work could be the result of the formation of such aromatic hydrocarbons and related aromatic stinking compounds?
Hi Vlad, the smell of death is related to the formation of a toxic stinking gas. This occurs during the putrefaction stage of the work. It is related to the gold of the alchemist, and is not a hydrocarbon.

The single flask of the alchemist can be associated with the great Eden of Genesis. Eden is thought to be derived from the Ugaritic base 'dn, meaning "a place well watered." Just as God watered the earth of Eden, so must the alchemist water the earth within his flask.

The death of Adam and Eve is due to eating the fruit of the Tree. This death is related to the putrefaction stage of the Great Work. After death our matter must be purified with a special solvent. This purification is the redemption of the race of Adam. So shall our matter be purified of impure and poisonous superfluities. This is a philosophic calcination.

I am saying a lot here.

solomon levi
06-14-2009, 03:30 AM
Hi Aleilius,

How can you know it's not a hydrocarbon?
It's just that if there is air in the flask, there's hydrogen and carbon
available. How can you be certain?

Aleilius
06-14-2009, 03:31 AM
Because simple hydrocarbons don't stink or smell like death. Otherwise, you'll have to take my word for it. I'm afraid I should say no more.

solomon levi
06-14-2009, 03:53 AM
Methane, skunk spray and rubber are a couple hydrocarbons that stink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol

This chemical is produced by putrefying matter and it stinks and is
a hydrocarbon.

Aleilius
06-14-2009, 03:58 AM
Not really, in my opinion methane has a different smell than what's actually being produced. It's also not as toxic.

The smell of methanethiol is related to the sulfur. ;)

Seth-Ra
06-14-2009, 04:01 AM
“Parosmia involves a distortion of the sense of smell -- the affected person reports smelling something other than the scent which is present -- for example, the person sniffs a banana but it smells like rotting flesh instead of a banana.”

... Umm... i may have that... anyway to fix it with "ormus"? If not, any alchemical remedies :o

(I can no longer smell any sort of meat without smelling the rotting scent of a part of my work... its beginning to bother me...)

solomon levi
06-14-2009, 04:07 AM
So if there are sulphur atoms available, as in the stibnite, marcasite,
galena ore paths, and vitriol path... you have all the elements to make the stench. :D

Aleilius
06-14-2009, 04:11 AM
Yes, you're right Solomon Levi. ;)


(I can no longer smell any sort of meat without smelling the rotting scent of a part of my work... its beginning to bother me...)
Haha, sorry about that. There's really not much you can do. I stopped smelling it after so long.

Seth-Ra
06-14-2009, 04:15 AM
Haha, sorry about that. There's really not much you can do. I stopped smelling it after so long.

lol, well i guess ill get over it... i think its getting better... maybe its a "sympathy" thing, as the materials smell improves so goes my nose, so... *crosses fingers* :D

thanks anyway. :)

Ghislain
06-14-2009, 07:22 AM
Dictioary.com

Methane

a colorless, ODORLESS, flammable gas, CH4, the main constituent of marsh gas and the firedamp of coal mines, obtained commercially from natural gas: the first member of the methane, or alkane, series of hydrocarbons.


Pentamethylenediamine (cadaverine)

a colorless, viscous, toxic ptomaine, C5H14N2, having an offensive odor, formed by the action of bacilli on meat, fish, and other protein.

is this the smoke before the fire?



Wikipedia.org

Methanethiol

is a colorless gas with a smell like rotten cabbage. It is released from decaying organic matter in marshes and is present in the natural gas of certain regions, in coal tar, and in some crude oils.

In surface seawater, methanethiol is the primary breakdown product of the algal metabolite dimethylsulfoniopropionate (DMSP).

Methanethiol is a weak acid, with a pKa of ~10.4. This acidic property makes it reactive with dissolved metals in aqueous solutions.

The environmental chemistry of these interactions in seawater or fresh water environments such as lakes has yet to be fully investigated.

The United States material safety data sheet (MSDS) lists methanethiol as a colorless, flammable gas with an extremely strong and repulsive smell. At very high concentrations it is highly toxic and affects the central nervous system.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol

Or is that the smoke? Heavy stuff as I have no background in chemistry :( not even the basics. Would it be useful to do a basic course in chemistry?



Wikipedia.org

Hydrogen sulfide is toxic. Although very pungent at first, it quickly deadens the sense of smell, so potential victims may be unaware of its presence until death or other symptoms occur.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur

Seth Ra maybe a quick sniff of the above would cure your olfactory ailment ;)

Vlad
06-14-2009, 07:30 AM
Doesn’t it appear even stranger that only certain people find this and promote it? Of course these elements are non-detectable. They don’t exist. It seems possible though, to convince the naïve and gullible that they do.

Which basically means you don't believe people have converted them to metal. Fine if that's your stance.


Yes, provide the goofiest answer you can. We do live in the 21st century. Plant hormones have been studied and documented and they can cause anything from increased germination to wild and weird growing plants. Look it up.

These plants were fed an ormus precipitate. Are you claiming they were fed hormones? Because if the ormus stimulated the plant's production of hormones, it's still due to the ormus.


If this has nothing to do with Alchemy, why is it on an Alchemy forum?


According to your belief it has nothing to do with alchemy.


“I never said it was the stone” but, “It is very possible ‘ormistry’ yields such a form of the stone”, and then, “Isn’t that alchemy or what?”, followed by, “How can you even be so sure the stone exists?”.

The only support for the subject are the texts. If you are not in agreement with the texts, you have nothing, just hot air. There are no methods of precipitation of various sea salts in the alchemical literature. This is something that somebody made up and called it Alchemy, which it isn’t.

You can stick with your texts and argue over definitions all day. I'll go for what works. Transmuation, enhanced health, spiritual paranormal abilities.


Sure. So why present this information here and not to people that can investigate the claim scientifically? I’ll answer the question for you: because it is nonsense. Only a few people here are likely to believe it, but that will be a few more to “spread the word”.

Why should anyone spread info on how to transmute. You want the 'powers that be' to get 'upset' or what? If a few people figure this out I doubt they'll do something serious about all these 'alchemical freaks', but if this would be spread en masse they'd probably quickly shut down the information flow and more.


Yes, it is much better to ingest the toxic gold to have some permanent spiritual effect.

If it doesn't harm plants, nor animals, and nor humans in the many years people have tried it, why not? It's not metallic gold and even if it was, colloidal gold is not toxic in small amounts.
Compare that with mineral alchemy starting with lead acetate and mercury as a base.


That shows your ignorance of the subject. Most people who have studied Alchemy know that words like mercury, antimony, gold, etc. are decknamen or assumed names and the words are not to be taken literally.

Oh yeah? You think I'm too stupid to understand the sophistry? Prove what you say. I don't believe it. The long wet way works with Hg as a base to make animated mercury I am of the opinon to radically dissolve and animate the gold put it in. There is no proof for sophistry to think otherwise. 'Mercury' is the metal part of an ore. I have always thought this and recently read native american alchemists claimed the same thing through tradition.
Refine and purify the 'mercury' and you get to the monoatoms or diatoms of the metal, an oil form of the metal, thus the 'philosophical' mercury of the ore.
It is also likely in some ores monoatoms or diatoms are naturally present, hence why natural ores have so called 'life'. It's by refining the metal or the ore that this monoatomic or diatomic oil is heated out or lost that you 'kill' the metal.


“Parosmia involves a distortion of the sense of smell -- the affected person reports smelling something other than the scent which is present -- for example, the person sniffs a banana but it smells like rotting flesh instead of a banana.”

“Among the unpleasant scents often reported by those suffering from parosmia or phantosmia are the smells of death (rotting flesh), feces, vomit, garbage, and smoke.”

“One potential cause of olfactory hallucinations is epilepsy. While most people think of epilepsy as involving the motor system, it does not necessarily do so. One can have epilepsy that has absolutely no involvement with one's muscles. Such epilepsy can cause hallucinations, strange thoughts, emotional feelings, etc. without any sort of muscular convulsion. If the olfactory cortex were involved, olfactory hallucinations would be present. If the visual cortex were involved, visual hallucinations would be present, etc.”

Common people call that a psychosis or schizophrenia.


I’m not aware of anyone that has completed this. I can see the claims a comin’. This does seem to be similar to Dr. Anthony’s “Third Form” in the book Aurum Potabile and does not use metallic gold. The word “gold” is another deckname.

No proof for that claim.

You remember Terry Mc Curter who sent pictures of transmuted gold to Rubellus his workers list years ago? Nobody believed him or almost nobody. He was ridiculed and chased off the list by the 'alchemist' who themselves had no proof for their sophistry or forthcoming interestin pictures of processes.
Terry was very much in agreement with ormes philosphy and also worked both with commercial acids and gold metal and got interesting results.
If that is not proof interesting results can be achieved through these means, then what is?

Jerry
06-15-2009, 01:12 PM
Which basically means you don't believe people have converted them to metal. Fine if that's your stance.

Why should anyone believe it? All you do is make claims without proof. Looking for more recruits for the movement?


These plants were fed an ormus precipitate. Are you claiming they were fed hormones? Because if the ormus stimulated the plant's production of hormones, it's still due to the ormus.

I don’t know what these plant were fed and I also don’t believe in your logical fallacies.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

You could claim they were fed condensed fat-free moonbeams. How can ormus stimulate plant growth if there is no such thing as ormus? I pointed out that Fulcanelli stated the Aurum potabile can be used for the “growth of plants”. I then produced other references concerning increased plant growth found in the literature, one stating you can get 50 or 60 ears of corn. These are effects of plant hormones which are applied in low concentrations (ppm –parts per million). These plant hormones are real substances, not imaginary like ormus. This also implies that the Aurum potabile is organic. I look for causes and you are trying to promote fantasy.


According to your belief it has nothing to do with alchemy.

How can ormus have anything to do with Alchemy if ormus doesn’t exist?


You can stick with your texts and argue over definitions all day. I'll go for what works. Transmuation, enhanced health, spiritual paranormal abilities.

You can’t prove “what works”. All you can do is make claims and hope somebody believes them. If your claims and methods are not in concordance or agreement with the “original source material”, you have nothing.


Why should anyone spread info on how to transmute. You want the 'powers that be' to get 'upset' or what? If a few people figure this out I doubt they'll do something serious about all these 'alchemical freaks', but if this would be spread en masse they'd probably quickly shut down the information flow and more.

Not only can you not provide any proofs for your claims, you want people to be paranoid about it.


If it doesn't harm plants, nor animals, and nor humans in the many years people have tried it, why not? It's not metallic gold and even if it was, colloidal gold is not toxic in small amounts.
Compare that with mineral alchemy starting with lead acetate and mercury as a base.

Could you point me to some clinical trials that prove these substances are non-toxic, or are we just supposed to take your word for it. Actually it doesn’t make any difference because there is no gold in Aurum potabile much less lead and mercury.


Oh yeah? You think I'm too stupid to understand the sophistry?

No comment.


The long wet way works with Hg as a base to make animated mercury I am of the opinon to radically dissolve and animate the gold put it in. There is no proof for sophistry to think otherwise. 'Mercury' is the metal part of an ore. I have always thought this and recently read native american alchemists claimed the same thing through tradition.
Refine and purify the 'mercury' and you get to the monoatoms or diatoms of the metal, an oil form of the metal, thus the 'philosophical' mercury of the ore.
It is also likely in some ores monoatoms or diatoms are naturally present, hence why natural ores have so called 'life'. It's by refining the metal or the ore that this monoatomic or diatomic oil is heated out or lost that you 'kill' the metal.

Monoatomic, diatomic, oil form of the metal, animated mercury, diatoms, animating gold, etc. I can see why it is much easier for people to understand just to drink the gold. Where in the texts do you find this? I just pointed out that Mercury is an acid. The texts are quite clear on using one or two substances. Most say “one thing” but it is variously composed.


You remember Terry Mc Curter who sent pictures of transmuted gold to Rubellus his workers list years ago? Nobody believed him or almost nobody. He was ridiculed and chased off the list by the 'alchemist' who themselves had no proof for their sophistry or forthcoming interestin pictures of processes.
Terry was very much in agreement with ormes philosphy and also worked both with commercial acids and gold metal and got interesting results.
If that is not proof interesting results can be achieved through these means, then what is?

In keeping with the “ormes philosphy “? That has cult written all over it. It might be interesting but I don’t see what this has to do with Alchemy. Poor Terry, he must have ascended or come to his senses. I do remember something about this near the end when people offered to purchase that “transmuted metal”. He said something like, ‘Why would anyone pay $5000 for a peace of lead?’


Common people call that a psychosis or schizophrenia.

It doesn’t make any difference what common people call it. There are many causes for the altered sense of smell but there is no mention of this effect in the literature until some stage in the process. You have two choices on the “smell of the grave”. It is either an organic chemical compound which has a direct effect, or the odor is only perceived and this involves neurochemistry by inducing a hallucination. Another type of “hallucination” can be found in the “original source material”:

“Therefore set that golden body you have obtained, which in dignity and virtue is exalted beyond all other Gold, into its due and lawful dissolution, its due time, then the Angel of the highest will appear unto thee, and tell thee that it is the solver of all the mysteries in the world….” – Last Will and Testament, Basil Valentine.

This one has both olfactory and visual “hallucinations”:

“From this place we moved straight forward till we came to a cave of earth. It was very obscure and withal dankish, giving a heavy odour - like that of graves. Here we stayed not long, but passing into this churchyard we came at last to the Sanctuary, where Thalia turning to me made this her short and last speech.”

"Eugenius, this is the place which many have desired to see, but saw it not.” – Lumen de Lumine, Thomas Vaughan, 1651.

Ghislain
06-15-2009, 03:22 PM
Jerry Hi,

I read your post but am not sure where you are coming from.

Are you angry?
Do you believe there is only one way to skin a cat?
Do you already possess the knowledge of all that is?

I ask this in all seriousness please do not think I am trying to make some smart retort.

When you post a quote could you post where the quote came from...its a bugger trying to find them...thanks

I read a post today and a line in it strikes a note that might be more suitably placed here:


Perhaps, most importantly, it is best to throttle-back and enjoy alchemy as 'a path' that is self-directed and casual, if that is preferable to an exclusively academic approach.

What do you think?

Jerry
06-15-2009, 03:59 PM
Are you angry?
Do you believe there is only one way to skin a cat?
Do you already possess the knowledge of all that is?

When you post a quote could you post where the quote came from...its a bugger trying to find them...thanks

I’m not angry? I just have a different level of understanding. You skin the cat according to the alchemical literature.

Which quote lacks a reference? It may be in a previous post.

solomon levi
06-15-2009, 05:56 PM
I’m not angry? I just have a different level of understanding. You skin the cat according to the alchemical literature.


:rolleyes: Did you use the word "level" consciously or unconsciously?
You could have just said you have a different understanding.
You also say "the" alchemical literature, but you really mean the alchemical
literature that you deem to be "the" alchemical literature.
There's lots of alchemical literature that you disagree with Jerry, just like
people who decided what books belong in the Bible and which do not.
It's far too personal to be scientific/objective. That which isn't objective
holds no objective value... you can only say "the" when you observe objectively;
otherwise we're really speaking about our own limited personal
opinions and preferences which aren't even really our own if you look at
them with a detached eye. (that sounds painful! lol!)
Everything we think has been borrowed and is not our own.
(That probably sounds real stupid if you don't know where I'm coming from.)
In psychological alchemy, this is the materia prima or virgin earth;
in Zen, beginner's mind or empty mind or no mind.
We have to take what we are presently, our mind, and make it very still so
that it can putrefy into the black stage - and eventually be able to dissolve sol/gold/ego.

If you're truly a stickler for the true alchemy, the purely philosophical matters...
then you'll have to live a philosophical life as well, as outlined above, or you can not succeed.
If you're a true alchemist, then you know "As above, so below; As within, so without."
If you don't know and practice these things, the purest, greatest authors will not matter.
If you do know and practice these things, the purest, greatest authors won't matter. ;)

Jerry
06-15-2009, 06:55 PM
:rolleyes: Did you use the word "level" consciously or unconsciously?

No, I meant exactly what I said. Been there, done that.

I can see I’m another one who has overstayed his welcome. You guys can go back to your imaginary ormus and convert your m-states to precious metals or poison yourselves or whatever floats your boat.

I’m not sure how to delete myself from this forum so I will leave that to whoever runs the show. I have other things to do besides put up with a bunch of pablum puking whiners.

Aleilius
06-15-2009, 10:03 PM
Jerry, I will not delete your account. Why not decide to post in another section instead of the ORMUS section? It shouldn't surprise you that you're only finding opposition in this section.

Jerry, what makes you think the Aurum Potabile is organic? Organic implies carbon based molecules, but from what I understand the Aurum Potabile is composed of the salt, water, and fire principles. However, I suppose this depends on your "earth" and your "water."

Why not use your energy for something other than arguing with m-state advocates? It seems like you'd be much better off. I get tired of trying to convince others of my ways. Vlad, and solomon levi know your stance, and there's no need to continue to debate over it. If ormistry is indeed a false science, then time will be the factor in converting m-state advocates, and nothing else will do (including your words). I just don't understand why you're so passionate about trying to convince others this is a false science. So what if it's a false science? Have you ever thought alchemy is also a false science? I've given thought to both of these. All tangents serve their due purpose. All paths are interconnected along a single route. I do not care if I'm practicing chemistry, archemy, alchemy, ormistry, or botchery. I know these are paths on the same route (some paths are shorter and less fulfilling than others), but if I continue to move forward I will reach the end goal.

I don't think running away or leaving will solve anything. Especially if your reason for leaving is because others are not in accordance with your own perspectives.

---------------------

"A Christian: Christianity is the true religion.
A Muslim: No, you're wrong, Allah is the only way.
A Buddhist: Both of you are wrong, the only true path is Buddhism.
A Satanist: All of you are wrong, the only true path is Satanism! Heil Satan!!"

It's the same exact argument.

"An Alchemist: Alchemy is the only path.
A Chemist: No, alchemy is hogwash. Our true gold is chemistry!
An Ormist: Both of you are wrong. Ormistry is the only way."

Ghislain
06-16-2009, 08:20 PM
Pablum A trademark used for a bland soft cereal for infants.

Thought it was a made up word.

Every day is a school day:)

Vlad
06-19-2009, 10:13 AM
I don’t know what these plant were fed and I also don’t believe in your logical fallacies.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/


What logical fallacy? Highlight it.


You could claim they were fed condensed fat-free moonbeams. How can ormus stimulate plant growth if there is no such thing as ormus?

You appear to be the one in this sentence using a logical fallacy. There is such a thing as ormus. It is a word denoting an unknown undefined substance and I say this because there is debate over what ormus exactly is. Point is it is a substance so it exists and you are in denial which is the problem with you. It does stimulate planth growth when added to plants and the logical assumption is that if you add unknown substance called ormus to plants and get bigger plants that it is likely due to the addition of unknown substance. This is logic. And you can add as many unknowns or variables like in a computer program or math, you'll still have to prove it's due to a direct link with them. You can claim it's been aliens feeding the plants hormones at night. If you can live with that fine, just prove it. I'm offering proof by saying if you add ormus you will notice it's due to the ormus. You are simply in denial. How scientific is that?



I pointed out that Fulcanelli stated the Aurum potabile can be used for the “growth of plants”. I then produced other references concerning increased plant growth found in the literature, one stating you can get 50 or 60 ears of corn. These are effects of plant hormones which are applied in low concentrations (ppm –parts per million). These plant hormones are real substances, not imaginary like ormus. This also implies that the Aurum potabile is organic. I look for causes and you are trying to promote fantasy.

What is the link between aurum potabile and plant hormones? It is not because you (cross) reference that this implies proof.
Where is your proof that aurum potabile is organic?
I can add an unknown variable which you will find hard to refute.
It's an organic molecule with an undetectable ormus gold monoatom or diatom tied into it. What can you say about that?
Here is how you can test it. Analyse the supposed organic aurum potabile, and reproduce the molecule without using gold or 'live' matters, and then reproduce it with those, and see if there is a difference. That way you might be able to draw conclusions whether or not the auru potabile is a pure organic compound or there is a 'mystical' component to it necessitating the usage of 'live' or metallic matters. If the latter is the case, ormus theory offers a good working model in the sense that it has provided procedures for indeed converting metal to biologically healing and active forms that are undetectable by modern equipment. It is very possible that these undetectable forms are implicated in the activity of the aurum potabile.


Poor Terry, he must have ascended or come to his senses. I do remember something about this near the end when people offered to purchase that “transmuted metal”. He said something like, ‘Why would anyone pay $5000 for a peace of lead?’

Obviously you apparently didn't notice the irony or sarcasm in his remarks. I know Terry was shocked no one believed him and people ridiculed him.
But that aside, fact remains he's still the only one that has come forward with solid pictures and some descriptions of the processes of his work.

Also. The people working 'ormistry' have come forward with some things. Be it pictures, some processes that can be repeated, analytical scans, in vivo tests, etc.

From the classical school of alchemists like the one you seem to belong to, claiming for example there is no gold in aurum potabile, I have seen very little. One is expected to believe the word of the alchemists or the ancient texts.

As it stands, you offer little proof of your claims yourself while you point the finger towards me for supporting ormus philosophy.

How about you share the recipe for making aurum potabile which is supposed to be an organic compound? I'll see if I can get gold metal out of it by using a conversion of ormus to metal process. That way you should notice there was 'undetectable' gold in it.

Awani
06-19-2009, 12:39 PM
I’m not sure how to delete myself from this forum so I will leave that to whoever runs the show. I have other things to do besides put up with a bunch of pablum puking whiners.

You can't delete yourself and I won't either. If you don't want to take part anymore then just stop posting.

Saying that a discussion forum usually end up having debates where people disagree, so let's just agree to disagree. As long as we respect each other this is 100% ok. Besides opinions can change with time, this is the good thing with discussions.

If you decide to leave then have a good life, but your account will remain open if you ever decide to return - which you are welcome to.

:cool:

solomon levi
09-23-2009, 05:51 PM
The Essene mentioned m-states drop to metal in the presence of sulfur. However I'm re-reading the Hudson patent, and he mentioned that ORMEs are often found associated with sulfide ores.



Who's correct? Is it Hudson or the Essene?


I've noticed several of the masters, after dissolving gold in aqua regia to make a calx,
would burn that calx with sulfur until the sulfur flies off. They'd do this several times.
I'm not sure what that accomplishes. It seems like a purifying step.

I think I've seen them write of this after making gold calx with common purified mercury as well.

sacredchemist33
08-23-2014, 09:30 PM
I have the book that Mr Hudson references. It's called the Analytical chemistry of the platinum group elements by Ginsberg. From the Soviet academy of science and translated by an Israeli named Ginsberg. Very good information

theFool
08-23-2014, 09:50 PM
I have the book that Mr Hudson references. It's called the Analytical chemistry of the platinum group elements by Ginsberg. From the Soviet academy of science and translated by an Israeli named Ginsberg. Very good information Cool, I have been reading (don't remember where) that this book didn't not exist. Obviously, it was an attempt to degrade some of Hudson's work.

sacredchemist33
08-23-2014, 10:13 PM
It does exist. And was one of the hardest pieces of information to track down, as I had to "borrow" the only copy in southern Alberta from the U of C. Hudson's whole process is in this book. Very rare and worth reviewing if your serious about platinum chemistry. God bless librarian's!

sacredchemist33
08-23-2014, 10:37 PM
When Au is burned with elemental Na and then boiled in NaOH, before titration with hcl, zinc powder is added to solution to absorb sulfur compounds which dramatically increases yields. Also in J. Hudson's (no relation to David) wpg method, sulfuric acid is used to release ppt into solution. So I still don't understand sulfur's role in m state materials. In one procedure zinc is scrubbing sulfur out to increase ppt , and the other process sulfur is added to actually produce a ppt. Maybe the sulfur acts like a cage for the m state materials?

JDP
08-24-2014, 01:19 AM
When Au is burned with elemental Na

I suppose you meant "elemental S" (i.e. sulfur)

theFool
08-24-2014, 09:42 AM
So I still don't understand sulfur's role in m state materials. In one procedure zinc is scrubbing sulfur out to increase ppt , and the other process sulfur is added to actually produce a ppt. I think you confuse those two "sulfurs". The one that prevents the good yield and should be removed by zinc is elemental sulfur that has contaminated gold. The other, used by Hudson's recipe to precipitate the ormus (calcium ions in my opinion) is sulfuric acid H2 SO4. Here the sulfur is bound with oxygen and appears as a SO4 ion, so it is different than elemental sulfur (S).
Also, the two processes differ in many points. The first starts from Au metal and transforms it into m-state, while the latter attempts to isolate it from the rock.

theFool
08-24-2014, 09:53 AM
I suppose you meant "elemental S" (i.e. sulfur)
JDP, actually there is a process where Au metal is exposed to elemental Na fumes at high temperature and it reacts. It is a scientific curiosity of how this is done (scientific books do not "know" about this a reaction) but it can be done. Check this report here: http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/burn.htm

sacredchemist33
08-24-2014, 05:53 PM
Jdp, no I meant Na, as in elemental sodium. It's called the sodium burn process and is highly reliable for disaggregating Au, Cu, and even Pt metals. Apparently Au, is leached out of it's ore with elemental sulfur in most refining operations, thereby contaminating and reducing yield of the sodium burn process, hence the zinc scrubbing step.

sacredchemist33
08-24-2014, 08:47 PM
Fool, I know the difference between the sulfur's, you just repeated what I stated only with the basic chemical description of sulfuric acid. My whole point is sulfur, bonded or not seems to be playing different roles in these processes and imo acting as a cage that either locks or unlocks m state materials depending on what, I am not to sure. I am also quite familiar with the difference between these two processes and your stating the obvious and not expanding on my thoughts makes it seem like your trying to belittle my intelligence, when in fact anyone can google that information. I, on the other hand have re-produced J. Hudson's proper recipe multiple times using different sources including dolomitic lime, azomite, sand, and lava rocks with impressive results (except lava rocks) and I assure you that there is more than calcium ions in all of my ppt's. And I am week's away from my own upgraded and improved sodium burn with 1/10 oz of valcambi 24k gold bullion, but I am starting to question the efficiency of this process as my data is pointing to the hcl/H2o2 with some special refinements as being the most effective way to bust microclusters down to size. My gold is very valuable and I am very hungry so I came here to perhaps find the best way to disaggregate Au bonds as this forum is where some of the true adepts dwell and I, as a lowly neophyte, come searching for those pearls of wisdom at the feet of the masters. So then fool: What, iyo is the most effective way to disaggregate gold since your so well versed in m state chemistry?

theFool
08-24-2014, 09:24 PM
I am also quite familiar with the difference between these two processes and your stating the obvious and not expanding on my thoughts makes it seem like your trying to belittle my intelligence, when in fact anyone can google that information. I am sad that you see it that way, accept my apolgy since I did not intented to belittle your intelligence. I am afraid that I cannot help you with your questions since I do not have so much extensive experience on this subject.

Awani
08-25-2014, 12:11 AM
sacredchemist33: Ever since you arrived here in the forums you've had a very bad attitude.


* Keep discussions calm, focused and respect other peoples views. - from Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3)

Before things turn really bad we (the moderators (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showgroups.php)) will put a stop to this right now!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/banned-cow_3282791_zps28b3f189.jpg

:cool: