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Boundless
01-02-2009, 04:20 AM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm).

I am fairly new to the practice and philosophy of gematria, but I feel I have been introduced to something very amazing.

My first experience with gematria was from the book Math for Mystics by Renna Shesso. Searching for more information online, I stumbled onto the Prime Qabalah, and many other ideas for ciphers.

I had also seen arguments for and against the use of English language. Some had good points to them, but some also seemed to be ego driven and elitist. It seems to me that it would make sense to use the original languages for documents written in that language. If the sample is a Greek or Hebrew document, then yes use a Greek or Hebrew cipher. But when using an English sample, I would think that an English cipher would be appropriate.

If numbers and patterns persist throughout all of the universe, then these patterns should also be reflected within all constructs of the universe. Language is a very powerful method of tranfering ideas and information from one to another. If the language is constructed out of the ideas and elements of the universe, then it should reflect characteristics of the patterns.

From the book mentioned above, the example that sparked my interest was:

buy=48, sell=48, trade=48, while profit=84. That was a neat trick so I looked into this a bit more and found that labor=48. I had also seen a glimpse of some other interesting aspects of the patterns.

Using the ordinal cipher (a:1-z:26), extropy, modernity, synthetic, cybernetics, and sequential, each have value of 123. Hmm 123, still not knowing very much about numbers and thier properties, this number suggests to me that there is something there. 123... could be a set of instructions or building blocks, a hint at linear or sequential ordering, and a suggestion of causation.

Still with the ordinal cipher, Computer, Formation, Humanity, Perfection, Providence, and Strength, each have the value of 111. Three ones being a trinity, that much is clear to me, but im still looking at this number for more information.

Interesting also is that data has a value of 26, the number of characters within the English alphabet. God also evaluates to 26.

101, Archetype, Procreate, Encrypt, System
100, Harmonics, Intellect
77, Disciple, Matter, Power, Savant, Vibrate, Research

One of the most intersting values I have found so far is from Liber AL vel Legis, The Book of Law by Aliester Crowley and using the Prime Qabalah cipher. The phrase "Every number is infinite; there is no difference!" has a value of 1135. Using Pythagorean reduction, this becomes 1 + 1 + 3 + 5 = 10 = 1 + 0 = 1. Truly infinte.

If anyone wishes to add to this, or share thier ideas and theories as to what is going on, I would really like to read them.

Aleilius
01-02-2009, 04:21 AM
If numbers and patterns persist throughout all of the universe, then these patterns should also be reflected within all constructs of the universe. Language is a very powerful method of tranfering ideas and information from one to another. If the language is constructed out of the ideas and elements of the universe, then it should reflect characteristics of the patterns.
Language is fairly powerful, but there are inherent issues with using language to convey meaning. Language relies on definition, and without a uniform definition the meaning begins to become incoherent. For instance, if you're using a word that somebody doesn't understand then they must go to a dictionary to find meaning. There are many different brands and types of dictionaries, and the meaning of one word from one dictionary may not reflect the same meaning in another dictionary (thus we have misunderstanding). If we could convey images instead of sound, I think we would lose the problem of incoherence and misunderstanding.


buy=48, sell=48, trade=48, while profit=84. That was a neat trick so I looked into this a bit more and found that labor=48. I had also seen a glimpse of some other interesting aspects of the patterns.
I agree with you, that is a neat trick! Here are some other interesting associations in the number set 48 (in no particular order) :

48: deny, evil, yin, labor, thief, buy, defies, fool, trade, czar, tree, none, son, blood, luna, live, sell, veil


Interesting also is that data has a value of 26, the number of characters within the English alphabet. God also evaluates to 26.
26: aid, hide, eat, data, ate, heal, bare, lie, god, foe, game


77, Disciple, Matter, Power, Savant, Vibrate, Research
77: christ, stars, mouth, nights, fathers, strife, known,wrong, matter, meditate, glory, power, findest, stoned, wound, sacrificed, forbidden, killeth, despise, causeth, taught, kneeling,escapeth, lifting, condemned, daytime, changeth, craveth, pacifieth,endangered, disciple, arimathaea, accusing, briefly

Also, you might find my site very useful if you haven't visited it before: www.englishgematria.com (http://www.englishgematria.com)
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Actually I'll post some of my current research into english gematria using the ordinal cipher (a-z/1-26).

57: aught, height, eighth, alight, builded, might, fungi, mediate, saddhu, deaths, hasted, tides, seeth, mahatma, human, likeable, least, steal, shield, stem, blinked, omit, dilemma, abound, samekh, daffodil, demigod, magdalen, befallen, befalls, boast, gleams, embodied, amendable, defends, bless, golden, longed, golds, pineal, sleep, ions, fooled, pangs, jolt, napalm, bloom, birth, joined, drift, moon, heater, differed, heralded, regime, rent, emerged, breakable, ringed, brides, debris, refine, harken, easier, fires, shark, risk, garland, enabler, blares, farms, labored, snare, repeal, roll, fnord, absorb, roads, detect, hitched, eros, sore, rose, teachable, celibate, afflict, appear, culled, sabbatic, infect, seduce, clung, casual, clubs, major, depict, magician, lacking, abrahadabra, blackened, schemed, vitae, fairer, alliance, changes, breeder, darker, divided, reefer, fancies, claims, cost, channel, balances, veiled, peaches, congeal, pieces, given, palaces, oceans, cherub, wheat, crafted, crumb, bickered, kicker, chimera, enrich, richen, walled, wink, ascribe, actor, orchid, sacker, chorded, crammed, wiped, glow, croaked, prick, below, bowel, swan, sow, lux, wood, jews, sexed, accepted, charred, fewer, achieved, deceived, jinx, cancels, shady, lays, slay, clove, winch, crackled, anarchic, mary, city, acidify, crawl, decays, waxed, cocky, crazed, sion, megiddo, jebus, goetia

55: slain, wicked, bribes, exile, satan, trap, filth, judas, asps, hiss

74: finished, heavens, gavest, wandered, tempt, horns, harlot, ruler, attained, abominable, accursed, lamented, wiser, error, renewed, manifold, preacher, lucifer, messiah, jesus, gospel, pinnacle, cross, parables, unbelief, jewish, satans, fruit, greater, wandered, coequal, beauty, energy, shines, parent, holiday,

77: christ, stars, mouth, nights, fathers, strife, known,wrong, matter, meditate, glory, power, findest, stoned, wound, sacrificed, forbidden, killeth, despise, causeth, taught, kneeling,escapeth, lifting, condemned, daytime, changeth, craveth, pacifieth,endangered, disciple, arimathaea, accusing, briefly

64: dwelt, desired, built, believed, bosom, mercy, cometh, israel, true, poor, falleth, burned, chosen, bright, rideth, seize, zion, infant, pits, leaders, peter, elects, torch, nuit, prince, thou, chosen, thelema, wilt, tzaddi, dust, vital, test, spell, mercy, spit, cower

72: revealed, aiwass, world, lover, lust, sweet, first, covered, wings, reason, money, unlike, failure, mohammed, bahlasti, wheels

144: aggrandizement, drunkenness, multitudes, attestation, scruntinize, comprehensible, ankhafnakhonsu, rahoorkhuit, inspiration, overthrow

96: knowledge, knoweth, proclaimed, speakest, wounds, reckoning, wasteth, strifes, revealeth, plucketh, planteth, praiseth, disciples, christs, powers, manifested, limiteth

97: serpent, husbandman, egyptian, foreskin, pleasure, touching, beautiful, watering, present, softly, troubled, garments, butlers, besought, overtake, pilgrimage, lawgiver, horsemen, foreigner, sanctify, remembrance, testified, coupling, serveth, direction, prolong, knewest, presume, recompence, lusty, determined, hurting, disguised, fourfold, violent, bounty, reignest, story, repairing, lookest, kinsfolk, departeth, cutteth, working, extolled, equity, witty, blueness, purely, convert, mutter, instant, rendereth, waters, miseries, resemblance, tempter, peacemakers, possible, buildings, fishermen, sufficeth, treatise, approved, believers, orderly, barbarous, foreknew, strived, weakness, commending, supreme, deceivings, delicious

42: hadit, balanced, wand, sin, rare, five, axle, nine, self, rain, war, odds, coph, fish, female, war, lamp, pay, lady, judaea, dawn

32: life, eve, ended, she, men, dread, rei, ages, dew, dread, damn, abased

52: abracadabra, earth, form, from, own, shall, what, names, now, well, door, seth, lived, heart, flood, six, spake, altar, plain, arise, salt, birds, speak, ashes, some, weaned, thigh, wit, kept, hadst, hazel, doeth, ewes, staff, raise, loud, last, sighed, declared, herbs, encamp, marched, blow, sinai, gates, decline, dancing, means, spice, crop, bewail, dwarf, pride, camps, bowl, leeks, aloes, helve, besiege, seeds, necks, carmel, riddle, grind, abused, marked, caring, sawed, ledges, cleaved, roar, weigh, won, fodder, dealing, create, copied, finer, accuse, ship, mart, neighed, charmed, blacker, traded, devil, pearl, harped, adorn, seared, canker, nero, damnable, biddeth, pope

48: fool, none, tree, evil, ribs, live, blood, son, filled, drank, build, famine, wild, sell, long, sit, accept, trade, ripe, declare, ring, buy, wall, join, bondage, bunch, thief, wax, paved, fins, chewed, pole, vile, botch, deny, gleaned, climbed, abuse, hedges, device, noble, chaldean, hoped, maker, wet, crime, fixed, shaked, veil, aware, juice, cabins, handled, doted, herald, hats, craft, anise, differ, rude, cleave

101: tongues, melchizedek, measures, whoredom, vessels, division, sitteth, holiness, continue, sacrificeth, candlestick, compound, mastery, assembling, singular, presumed, pollute, blessest, fortieth, mightest, evermore, assurance, parlour, lewdness, smallest, garrison, behaviour, spittle, afflictest, merchants, eighteenth, barnfloor, revolted, blasphemy, confounded, husbandmen, soldiers, dismissed, register, reported, presses, persians, terrify, roarings, condemneth, lettest, comprehend, furrow, croucheth, spoiling, sleepest, swelling, boastest, enrichest, revenging, morsels, foreseeth, wringing, skipping, conceiving, rentest, intents, dismaying, repentance, palestine, pardoneth, rattling, quivered, unloose, lordship, traitor, doubtful, proving, sorcerer, christian, invisible, olympas, sowest, concision, immortal, sundry, speakings, philadelphia, assassin, immortal, holiness

111: lustful, infinitude, distillate, befuddlement, tanglement, fundamental, lightless, outshine, amusement, unlinking, maintaining, hothouse, litheness, knighthood, illusion, loneliest, punishes, adulterated, boundless, hilltops, foulness, bloodstain, goldstone, fissionable, fainthearted, testifier, slaughter, anomalous, pentagons, strength, unalterable, nonplus, obliterated, forgettable, disguiser, outsider, stunner, threadless, fermenting, sundering, lionhearted, opinions, resenting, stubborn, redesigning, digressing, ruleless, headstrong, trinomial, termless, opposing, firestone, bourgeois, mourning, friendless, speedster, atrophies, honourable, openhearted, metastatic, breakpoint, assigners, reassigns, formation, untouched, senators, robotism, foremost, orations, tornadoes, liquors, dishonored, mutative, indictment, grandsons, morphism, significant, prettier, troubler, determiner, disaffection, arresting, unspecified, infliction, scientism, poisoner, judicious, midsection, refinisher, drummers, fascination, bedevilment, auriculate, ejaculation, competent, sheepherder, disclosing, topnotch, slickness, assuror, pruners, quarrels, partners, disorders, confessing, speechless, confounds, compensate, vanquish, livelihood, discreditable, closeness, christiania, omissive, insolvable, encumbering, outlaws, composing, entrenches, eroticism, incoherent, indecipherable, computer, reclamation, sunglow, conflagrant, ferocious, perceptible, electrons, shivering, perfection, channellers, apprenticed, redresser, feverous, haughtily, overtaken, inappreciable, comradeship, conjuring, revolts, governing, perjurer, horrors, treacheries, delightedly, resolvable, expunges, humanity, unoccupied, amethyst, skylight, explaining, overtop, crushers, initially, unsafety, omnivore, incandescent, towering, communicable, swirling, creditors, corrupt, wiretaps, wrinkles, lamentedly, fiendishly, inverter, insanity, iconoclast, somewhere, analysts, antinomy, corporate, manifoldly, reverses, tinderbox, cosmologic, lucrative, brutally, unruly, ethereally, unwelcome, putrefy, reverter, cutwater, approver, wherefrom, divergences, reinforcer, majority, illicitly, providence, sanctity, extractable, additively, xenophobic, vaccination, executor, melodically, concoction, symbolical, coequally, atrocity, depolarize, emblazoner, shadowbox, bricklaying, witchcraft, adversely, severely, excessive, underway, necromancy, witchery, fuzzier

121: antimatter, tantrist, tritheism, hungriest, shattering, dimensions, appellation, earthshaking, bloodstone, burnishing, enumerates, saturnine, interlinked, friendliest, administered, equilateral, ruination, trueness, brightness, possessed, lamplighter, strangling, gradualness, annihilator, mesmerist, repulsing, unparalleled, spelunker, separatism, glamorous, depressant, motherhood, nurtured, intriguer, landlordism, tortured, triangular, reasonings, hornedness, unification, dishonors, suffocating, infectious, combustible, promotes, annunciates, thrillers, sustenance, techniques, vignettes, magnification, encapsulated, prolegomena, speculates, legislative, bodhisattva, transferable, forefathers, protruded, enhancements, strangers, selectness, cloudiness, displacement, poorness, omniscient, cosmonaut, dislocation, firstborn, consolidated, whiteout, turbulence, superior, antichrist, attraction, compoundable, swiftest, translucid, performing, whistling, centralist, programmable, unwilling, bidirectional, wheelhouse, dishwashing, sweetening, chastisers, virulent, empiricist, discourages, atrocious, murderers, alphanumeric, declarations, metaphorical, stonewall, primitive, refreshers, metamorphic, universal, harvestman, weaknesses, mirroring, rejuvenate, revelation, exaltation, commemorate, maximalist, behaviorism, misbehavior, grovelling, unaccounted, restricted, semiflexible, perception, slaveholder, scissors, prospected, lecturers, principles, resolving, pronounce, inapproachable, communicated, paraphraser, disunity, expedition, exploitable, misconduct, overtook, whiteners, shrewdest, midnightly, reconfigure, developers, equability, exemption, extraditable, incorrigible, reflectors, advertiser, exhauster, retrieves, intensify, procathedral, provokes, swordfish, advancements, adversaries, convenient, consequence, sorceress, exothermal, expertise, heliocentric, constrict, encirclement, hexahedrons, enjoyment, degenerately, northward, demagoguery, strangely, numerally, whisperer, maternally, yourself, generatrix, exposers, inexplicit, borrowing, exaggerator, awestruck, oysters, pharmacologic, quetzals, brainpower, ecclesiastical, overcoming, ritualize, exporter, provinces, extracting, shipwrecked, livability, syngenetic, warriors, crosswalk, standardize, vivacious, showdown, overwhelm, invisibly, primarily, knavishly, parallelized, motorize, abstractly, copyright, supremacy, capitalizes, cannibalizing, poverty, copyholder, luxury, vulgarize, apocalyptic, extravagance, convalescence, accompanying, archetypical, everybody

Boundless
01-02-2009, 04:22 AM
Language is fairly powerful, but there are inherent issues with using language to convey meaning. Language relies on definition, and without a uniform definition the meaning begins to become incoherent. For instance, if you're using a word that somebody doesn't understand then they must go to a dictionary to find meaning. There are many different brands and types of dictionaries, and the meaning of one word from one dictionary may not reflect the same meaning in another dictionary (thus we have misunderstanding). If we could convey images instead of sound, I think we would lose the problem of incoherence and misunderstanding.

Yes, that is absolutely true and it was sloppy thinking for me not to have thought about that when writing this. Especially because I have thought about this before. Though I think that this may be a necessary property of language to allow for its continued evolution and growth. A obvious example is the word 'gay' and its slang use of today. Another interesting change has been to the word 'awful', originally meaning full of awe.

On a side note, I once heard that we are a small genetic sequence from using imagery as communication rather than sound. How true this is I dont know. Though Ive also read that autistic children are known to communicate through imagery better than language. Heh, this may sound a bit fluffy, but when trying to communicate with my cat, I will try to project images to him rather than word thoughts. I have noticed much better success that way.

I have been to your site, a job well done on www.EnglishGematria.com. And seeing your research posted reminded me of a thread I had seen elsewhere, regarding 57, mary, rose, magdalen. Thats a very interesting set. Moon and Birth may also be added to the list.

In regards to the theory and practice of gematria, what are your thoughts on Capitalized letters and punctuation? Have you seen any ciphers which incorporate these ideas? And if you have, did the results show anything of interest?

I have been to your site, a job well done on EnglishGematria.com. And seeing your research posted reminded me of a thread I had seen elsewhere, regarding 57, mary, rose, magdalen. Thats a very interesting set. Moon and Birth may also be added to the list.

Heh, glad you like the site. The number 57 and it's various associations using the ordinal method is very VERY interesting. Yes, you're right, moon and birth should be added to the list. I have various versions of these lists on a few message boards and some are incomplete (i pasted that particular list of assocations from one of my previous posts on abrahadabra), but I was aware of the connection with moon and birth to the number 57.


In regards to the theory and practice of gematria, what are your thoughts on Capitalized letters and punctuation? Have you seen any ciphers which incorporate these ideas? And if you have, did the results show anything of interest?

I don't think capitalization or punctuation have any effect on the outcome. For the most part, these are just syntax issues that revolve around ease of understanding written language. The real phenomena we should be concerned with is the mental imagery (memory, experience, etc) the word invokes. I think this is the real determining factor of gematria and word association.
Hmmm, I dont know.... I can see how a good bit of punctuation and capitalization can be a syntax issue, but also it may add emphasis or even change the meaning of a word. For example 'fire', and 'fire!'. Fire in of itself isn't much of a concern, though with the exclamation behind it, it adds a sense of urgency or warning to it. As for capitalization, Earth is a different idea than earth. And both examples, for me at least, do bring to mind a different set of images and feelings.

Though I can only think of a few examples of this, I see how this can really mess things up. With the first character of a sentence being capitalized, would bring a different value than the same word appearing within the sentence. Also the trailing '.' at the end of a sentence would throw the last word. Hehe, then theres the problems of the improper use of punctuation or lack of. Such as exclusion of a comma where it should be, or a missing apostrophe for a compound word.

As for mental imagery and thought associations, I would think that would have the same flaws as does the language itself. As word meanings change, so will memories and images. I also believe that accessing a memory changes that memory. Each time a memory is processed, the person may have a different state of mind, and different perceptions. Thus the ideas received from the processing of the memory may be different each time. Still though this is a very interesting idea and worth more thought.

Thank you for your comments, ideas, and discussion, BeautifulEvil. This gives me much more to think about on this topic.

Hmmm, I dont know.... I can see how a good bit of punctuation and capitalization can be a syntax issue, but also it may add emphasis or even change the meaning of a word. For example 'fire', and 'fire!'. Fire in of itself isn't much of a concern, though with the exclamation behind it, it adds a sense of urgency or warning to it. As for capitalization, Earth is a different idea than earth. And both examples, for me at least, do bring to mind a different set of images and feelings.

Very good argument Jepetto! This significant insight into punctuation and capitalization really raises a couple of red flags, and I'm not sure how to deal with them. However, with the argument of 'fire' and 'fire!' I can say this much: both of these words have a special context, but still refer to the same phenomena. I think we shouldn't judge on context (a sense of urgency, etc), but rather the core root of the word, and that's fire (as in flames, red, orange, yellow, etc). I really am at a loss here, because these words do bring forth a different set of images and feelings when processing them and taking the punctuation and capitalization in mind.

Of course we can make another argument: there are many words in the English language that look the same, but have different meanings. For example let's take the word 'cool' into context. It could have different meanings depending on the way it's used; it could mean something is cold to the touch, or something is interesting or neat. Excuse me, not a great example, but I think you understand.


Though I can only think of a few examples of this, I see how this can really mess things up. With the first character of a sentence being capitalized, would bring a different value than the same word appearing within the sentence. Also the trailing '.' at the end of a sentence would throw the last word. Hehe, then theres the problems of the improper use of punctuation or lack of. Such as exclusion of a comma where it should be, or a missing apostrophe for a compound word.

Yes, this is very bothersome. Normally when I calculate the value of a word or group of words (i.e. a text file) I drop all punctuation and turn all uppercase characters into lowercase characters.


As for mental imagery and thought associations, I would think that would have the same flaws as does the language itself. As word meanings change, so will memories and images. I also believe that accessing a memory changes that memory. Each time a memory is processed, the person may have a different state of mind, and different perceptions. Thus the ideas received from the processing of the memory may be different each time. Still though this is a very interesting idea and worth more thought.

Your insight is fantastic, and you're spot on when you talk about memory being prone to failure (false memories and such).

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Here's something I thought of in regards to communication and language:

I think language is useful in the sense that it allows communication of thought between two nodes. In this sense the each biological system becomes a type of multiple CPU parallel supercomputing system. If each human spoke a different language, then the human would only be limited to experience and knowledge gained in his or her own experiences. The human would not be able to learn from other humans, and would not be able to exchange ideas. Thus the survival of an animal would become highly limited, since it can only rely on its own experience to survive (which would cause a definite survival issue). I am willing to say that each living animal has some form of communication system to exchange knowledge, it only makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Those animals that do not develop effective communication systems, or communication organs, are doomed to die much sooner than those with proper communication system.

If computers are ever to achieve AI then this is how it will be accomplished (by mimicking natural living systems). I might've went slightly off topic, but I feel it closely relates to the topic at hand.

I really am at a loss here, because these words do bring forth a different set of images and feelings when processing them and taking the punctuation and capitalization in mind.

So am I. I agree with your thoughts regarding context. Especially when a word can be used several times in a sentence or phrase and have a different meaning to those familiar with its usage. Also Im not sure how one would necessarily assign values to the deserving punctuation and capitals. Not that I think the actual number is what is always important but the pattern itself. Would the this be a true reflection of the patterns or just a glimpse of it? But also I would think that to some degree the numerical symbol and value of a word would also be part of its qualities.


Normally when I calculate the value of a word or group of words (i.e. a text file) I drop all punctuation and turn all uppercase characters into lowercase characters.

I do the same, and when I store them, I use a title function to store them with first letters capitalized, for easier reading and to prevent double entries. I am going to play with some ideas as I think more about this. If I come up with anything interesting, I will share.


If computers are ever to achieve AI then this is how it will be accomplished (by mimicking natural living systems). I might've went slightly off topic, but I feel it closely relates to the topic at hand.

Not entirely, I think at the core of the discussion and ideas here are symbols and cognition. I have been told that memory is really a complex web of symbols. When the mind processes incoming information, it compares those impulses to its dictionary of symbols until the closest match it found. If the symbols form a cohesive idea then the memory processes otherwise its discarded for an idea that works with the internal dictionary.

If you have the opportunity, you may enjoy the sci-fi short Destination: Void by Frank Herbert. The theme is the creation of AI and an analysis of the mechanics of consciousness.