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solomon levi
08-14-2009, 10:39 PM
In Gnosticism, the Demiurgos blindly imagines itself to be God.
In Toltec philosophy, the Tonal has usurped the throne of the Nagual.
In non-duality, one sees that we hold a false concept of ourselves as
subjects instead of objects.

I was going to comment on this and its ramifications, but I'll leave it
at that for now.

Play_Dough
08-15-2009, 12:12 AM
In Gnosticism, the Demiurgos blindly imagines itself to be God.
In Toltec philosophy, the Tonal has usurped the throne of the Nagual.
In non-duality, one sees that we hold a false concept of ourselves as
subjects instead of objects.

I was going to comment on this and its ramifications, but I'll leave it
at that for now.


Hi Solomon Levi!

Don Juan says that we must get free of the 'alien installation' (something 'foreign' to our true nature), and the Hindu Text "Bhagavad Gita" is about a 'war' to remove the 'evil monarch' from the throne (of self) and to restore the rightful monarch (the 'good').

Regarding the 'self as illusion', I agree, but with slight reservations.
In 'The Below" the 'self' is the 'cross' upon which the our true nature is metaphorically crucified (Mercury trapped in the sulphur of ego); in 'The Above' the 'self' does not exist in our thoughts because 'we are One' and the 'selfless state' eventually produces transcendental bliss as "The Supreme Enjoyer".

.

Seth-Ra
08-15-2009, 03:47 AM
This is bias to my personal faith, just a warning to differing opinions (but you may get some good out of the point). ;)

Maybe its because im a Gemini, but i see everything as a game, and we, self, all reality, etc, is nothing more then toys for God, nothing more then what He sees fit for us to be. The problem is to many put to much importance into "self". Ive thought up a way to demonstrate it:

Humans, are the hawk: gifted with flight (dominance over all/higher ground), and keen eyes (knowledge). The hawk can live on mice (normal societies way) but many like the serpents (serpents = secret knowledge and underlying Nature itself), as both a challenge, and a meal. (hard to learn, but worth it, and satisfying.)
Now the hawk puts to much importance on itself, thinks its above the rest, but Nature (and God, imo) have a humbling rod: the cat (any kind, and cat = grounded Nature, i.e. fire with water, both salvation and destruction sides of Nature.)

So, the hawk goes after the serpents, learning, and understanding, enjoying the journey. But that isnt the majority, for the majority of the hawks are only interested in their mice, but will kill the serpents that get in the way (shoot down Truths that they disregard, i.e. Alchemy). Nature concocts a plan to deal with these: A snake snatches a hawk's mouse, angering the hawk to revenge, as it goes for the snake, the cat jumps it, devouring it. The hawks of humanity falling unto destruction for their self-serving ways, an idea of "what right does that being have, for it is about MY, ME, SELF." and that thought caused him to be cat-nip.

for those who thrive on the serpents, and on Nature's knowledge, the snake sees, and lays down itself, allowing the Hawk to eat it the snake serving, as the hawk eats, he understands, as the cat kills, and gives to her kittens: the hawk serves, and becomes part of the cats, in a "good" way, for they all serve one another.

Death overtakes all, but Life is after it, we must choose the Life, and Nature does the rest, it is our job to choose, and it is our job to serve, letting go of self, for we are the toys of & the instruments of God, in the play-house of Nature.

When self is done away with, then we can really see ourselves, and better the cycle: death cannot stop the good, it merely weeds out the bad. (using them as absolutes.)

Well, ive said enough, i hope the meaning wasnt lost, and i hope it wasnt to "long-winded". :)

~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
08-15-2009, 12:14 PM
IMHO
There is only One. EGO is the fallacy that there are individuals. The Ego cannot exist without the mind.
The mind is only a characteristic of our being, but Ego puts the individual us’ above all else.
In meditation many try to blank out the mind (ego) to feel the truth that lies behind it.

A chair is a chair and has no delusion of being anything else. Try being a chair and you will not last very long as it is not in your character to be a chair.
A chair plays its part as a chair much better than we do. One day we may have the privilege to be a chair, or part thereof.
A question this brings to mind is, “we know what purpose a chair serves – what might our purpose be”?

There is no separate being called God; God is the One that everything is an integral part of. Hence God is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Death overtakes all

Death is a word we created to explain the end of being human or the end of what we describe as life (?)...as all is One then there is no death or life, these are just descriptive words for a state of being.

Again may I reiterate that all above is IMHO

This opinion may change in the next nanosecond or so :)

Play_Dough
08-15-2009, 01:03 PM
edited...


...we must choose the Life, and Nature does the rest, it is our job to choose, and it is our job to serve, letting go of self...

...When self is done away with, then we can really see ourselves...

~Seth-Ra

These are the portions of your post which I feel to be most profound:

"...we must choose the Life, and Nature does the rest, it is our job to choose, and it is our job to serve, letting go of self...

...When self is done away with, then we can really see ourselves..."


Comment....
Whenever we have a dream (ideal-goal) the entire universe moves to 'make it happen'.... so when we have a dream we must surrender to the flow that will guide us to the manifestation of our dream. Our act of 'surrender' (dynamic surrender) is the only way to make our dreams come true.
First, the dream...... choose it...... and then surrender to the flow....... then success is a matter of co-operating with one's self.

It is we who turn the key and start the machine that we call 'the universe'.

Our 'lead' (Saturn) self cannot do this magic..... our 'Mercurial' self can, and does.

Dissolve and Coagulate. It is the 'self' that prohibits our dissolution ....... the gold must be released from the base metals.......... and only 'The One' can do this..... we can only 'dream it'..... and then surrender to "The One" and have it happen.

.

Seth-Ra
08-15-2009, 08:38 PM
Well, I know my view of God isn't like what many here think, but that's ok cause we have nicely diverse ways of thinking here, and when we colaborate from the different aspects, we all get a little closer to more Truth. :)

I like the nature of this thread, seems the key thing is for us (self/ego) to get out of our own way. (The way of Truth and manifesting it as reality.)
Each has Truth within the self, that shows as the whole, be we let our selves get in the way, by our own ego and personal bits of Truth, that we blind ourselves to the Truths of the rest.
Let go and hold on, instead of holding on and letting go.
(let go of self, hold on to Truth, rather then holding on to self and letting go of Truth.)

Once you let go and hold on, you can then allow that which you hold, to be. :cool:
;)

solomon levi
08-18-2009, 06:40 PM
Hi Solomon Levi!

Don Juan says that we must get free of the 'alien installation' (something 'foreign' to our true nature), and the Hindu Text "Bhagavad Gita" is about a 'war' to remove the 'evil monarch' from the throne (of self) and to restore the rightful monarch (the 'good').

Regarding the 'self as illusion', I agree, but with slight reservations.
In 'The Below" the 'self' is the 'cross' upon which the our true nature is metaphorically crucified (Mercury trapped in the sulphur of ego); in 'The Above' the 'self' does not exist in our thoughts because 'we are One' and the 'selfless state' eventually produces transcendental bliss as "The Supreme Enjoyer".

.


Hey Play Dough.

For me, what the self being an illusion means is that when I look for it, I can't
find it. All I find are thoughts/memories that "I" give adhesion to by fixating
attention upon it as an entity, which it is not, and by agreeing to the whole
continuity of time - past --> present --> future - as a given. The self exists on
the faulty foundation of these assumptions/intentions. They are intended
selfishly and not investigated unbiasedly. When we really look at them, they don't
make sense. :)

solomon levi
08-18-2009, 06:42 PM
Sorry I don't have time to read all these yet.
I'm at a library and have a couple minutes left.
Will get back to you.

solomon levi
08-19-2009, 05:54 PM
I enjoyed reading the replies.

On surrender, letting go, getting out of the way...
This is a real art IMO. I mean it is the self that is wanting, that has dreams
and desires, that decides to try to alter reality to manifest its desires...
but this same wanting mind cannot receive what it dreams.
To dream/desire something is to recognise the now-fact that you don't have it,
and by wanting, we affirm the reality that we do not have it.
So the art is to recognise a dream and then to release it from the mind of lack -
in actuality, to cross the bridge from the first to the second attention, or from
the conscious to the subconscious, or whatever language/system you are familiar with.

Jesus said something like "When you pray/ask for some thing, know (feel) that it
is already yours." This describes the journey (or quantum leap) from the wanting
mind to the being/having/already is "mind".

The process is, in truth, exactly like trying to enter dreaming consciously.
It's helpful to practice maintaining awareness as you fall asleep and lucid dreaming.

The thing is, this happens naturally in very small, quick moments... there is a pause
or subconscious void between every thought, a space between each breath. The
artist intends to emphasise these spaces and use them - a not-doing, if you will.

That's my analysis of "surrendering".

Play_Dough
08-21-2009, 07:39 AM
edited...

I enjoyed reading the replies.

On surrender, letting go, getting out of the way...
This is a real art IMO...

Jesus said something like "When you pray/ask for some thing, know (feel) that it
is already yours." This describes the journey (or quantum leap) from the wanting
mind to the being/having/already is "mind".

The process is, in truth, exactly like trying to enter dreaming consciously.
It's helpful to practice maintaining awareness as you fall asleep and lucid dreaming.

The thing is, this happens naturally in very small, quick moments... there is a pause
or subconscious void between every thought, a space between each breath. The
artist intends to emphasise these spaces and use them - a not-doing, if you will.

That's my analysis of "surrendering".

"That's my analysis of 'surrendering'".

And a really good one, Solomon Levi.

Your writing is inspiring me, so I wish to expound upon the ideas which you expressed so elegantly.

As the 'pause' between thoughts increases, the artist expands. When all thought falls away, then the artist becomes the magician. The 'Magician' is united with 'The One', because the Magician is 'empty' (of self). All of 'the dross' has been removed from his or her gold.

At the level of clarity of "Magician", one has learned about the potency of thought.... especially when one is united with "The One".

And you are so very correct when you imply, 'to want is to want', and 'to have is to have'.

If you can 'have something' in your thoughts and emotions, then know that it is on it's way to you, in the physical; provided that you are consistent in your 'single focused' thoughts.

King Solomon's mines are within us.
To 'get in' to the mines, one must 'let go' of the illusion within which we sleep and dream.

Lucid dreaming becomes 'mystified' when a man dreams that he is a butterfly, and then awakens to find that he is a butterfly dreaming that he is a man. 'Truth' is what we 'believe' into 'reality'. There are 'cultural truths', 'scientific truths', 'religious truths', and alchemical truths.

All "truths" are the illusions in which we sleep, except for the alchemical truth.

The alchemical truth can transform our 'reality' into a 'lucid dream'. A dream in which we are always aware that we are surrounded by a mutable matrix....and it is the master alchemist who holds up the thought and allows the creative light of 'The One' to give it life and to make it real.

Who ever thought that one had to 'back into' paradise. (?) In order to 'extract' the gold (mercurial consciousness) from it's previous 'incarnation' ('fixed' lead or iron or tin, etc.). ...........the sacred art of 'lucid alchemy'.... teaches us to dissolve (remove 'self' from thought)...and then 'coagulate' (hold a thought/context passionately), or not.
________

All quotes from "Leap into The Void" by Hugo Furst http://forum.alchemyforums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


.

solomon levi
08-24-2009, 05:54 PM
More and more lately, I'm becoming a jumble of feelings.
If I hadn't intentionally initiated the deconstruction of myself,
I'd be really worried that I'm going crazy and/or am bipolar cause I swing
from euphoria to depression pretty regularly.
The thing is I am going crazy, losing my mind, intentionally,
but I find that the intention doesn't really make it any easier; or maybe it
does - how can I say for sure. But I struggle with it often.
I'm able to extract myself from the emotions by asking myself,
"Who is it that is having these emotions/feelings?"
And then I look for the identity and cannot find it.
That solves that issue fairly well, but it creates another one -
the more I lose myself, the more unstable I feel, and it's kind of scary
and very lonely. The aloneness is one of the most difficult things for me to bare/bear (sp ?)
But I'm set on this path; I know it's a true path, and I've past the point of no return.
I can't go back to being ignorant now that I've been seeing for several years.

So I'm wondering if anyone else here is experiencing something similar...
And I'm not into drugs - I mean drugs haven't made me this way.
I experiment on occasion, but do nothing regularly.
Though the few times I have journeyed with Psilocybes were certainly
gateway experiences into this no-self reality.

I have been taught to use wine ceremoniously in order to "drop the veil"
of the personality. Just this last weekend I had only the second experience
of completely forgetting what I'd done while drinking. And I don't mean just
getting drunk and passing out... I was still active for hours and have no memory
of it. It's, once again, frightening and fascinating... I was kind of worried that
my shadow would have acted in that situation, but from what my friends tell me,
I was very decent and loving. That was encouraging.

So, I'm writing this to share and to see if anyone is having common experiences.
Please don't write posts that worry about me or suggest I seek help. :)
I've worked very hard for many years to get this way, so please don't assume
I'm lost or out of control, even though I am. :D You know what I mean?
The truth is, we're all out of control... but not all of us know it, and even fewer allow it.

solomon

Ghislain
08-24-2009, 06:47 PM
Sol'

I am having a similar experience, but from what I have read in your post not quite as strong; but I feel I am heading to where you seem to be and I have only attempted philosophical change and not yet attempted trying anything physical yet.

I think these feelings are a by product of trying to change...the programmed us' trying to keep the status quo. I console myself by associating these feelings with experiences I have not enjoyed in the past and realising they were temporary. I have a goal and I will come out the other side of this smelling of roses...I hope.

Having said all that I would still heed the term, “mad as a hatter”... As mercury was used in the process of curing felt used in some hats, it was impossible for hatters to avoid inhaling the mercury fumes given off during the hat making process. Hatters often suffered mercury poisoning as residual mercury vapour caused neurological damage including confused speech and distorted vision. It was not unusual for hatters to appear disturbed or mentally confused.

P.S. You are far from being alone.

rockfate1111
08-26-2009, 06:16 AM
Hey Solomon,

As far as the periods of totaly loosing yourself and not recalling periods of time I can totally relate to this. I personally find that these periods occur in states of extreme bliss. Alcohol can certainly help to facilitate them too.:D

From the same source as your verification, it is my friends who tell me what happened during these times and its always positive for me as well.

Now, these are not to be misunderstood as the same as alcoholics blackouts... as you stated. These are lightly buzzed sates of bliss in which the habitual cycle of life stops and we just be.

The more we loose ourselves the more we just be.

When we just be is when I think we are the most beautiful and creative.

When we loose who we are... or who we think we are :p


Feelin' Ya Man ...

-Rockfate1111

solomon levi
08-26-2009, 05:38 PM
:)
Thanks for the replies, guys.


"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy" - Seal

Play_Dough
09-03-2009, 02:41 AM
edited.....

More and more lately, I'm becoming a jumble of feelings.
If I hadn't intentionally initiated the deconstruction of myself,
I'd be really worried that I'm going crazy and/or am bipolar cause I swing
from euphoria to depression pretty regularly.
The thing is I am going crazy, losing my mind, intentionally,
but I find that the intention doesn't really make it any easier; or maybe it
does - how can I say for sure. But I struggle with it often.
I'm able to extract myself from the emotions by asking myself,
"Who is it that is having these emotions/feelings?"
And then I look for the identity and cannot find it.
That solves that issue fairly well, but it creates another one -
the more I lose myself, the more unstable I feel, and it's kind of scary
and very lonely. The aloneness is one of the most difficult things for me to bare/bear (sp ?)
But I'm set on this path; I know it's a true path, and I've past the point of no return.
I can't go back to being ignorant now that I've been seeing for several years.

So I'm wondering if anyone else here is experiencing something similar...

solomon

Hi Solomon Levis (to both of you!) :-)

I have had similar experiences to the one's that you have described...... and, you are correct (by implication), ... that if you 'make them real' ...they can drive you nuts.

Here is a checklist:
1) food allergies (INCL. additives)
2) out of whack emotional-body
3) you're actually going bananas
4) dynamic astrological transits
5) you got bit by a vampire :-)
6) emerging power has engaged some 'repressed fears' (to be vanquished)
7) fill in the blank

My 'hit' is the emotional body. We are all so 'smart' but rational analysis cannot 'adjust' our emotions... we have to 'dive-in' and 'feel' our way to wholeness.

We are 'social creatures' so having too-much alone-time can be disorienting.

Don Juan's 'recapitulation' exercise is also recommended.

Emotions are 'lunar'. ... so, 'solar approaches' are not going to work.

Ya gotta 'feel it out' to 'clear'.

Going 'sane' often feels like 'going crazy'. It is temporary.

Here, also, is something that I have found to be 'true'.
If we are 'getting rid of ourself' then the 'universe' believes that that ('getting rid of self') is the game that we wish to play. So, there will always be more 'self' for us to get rid of!
The focus is best kept upon 'what it is that we wish to become'. That way the 'self' is diminished because we no longer 'feed it' with the power of our 'attention'.
Trying to 'get rid of the self' is like trying to throw-away a trash can. The 'collectors' always leave the trash can, because they are supposed to take what's 'in' the trash can and not the trash can, itself. :-)
I have found that the surrendering of the self to 'The One' is most beneficial. We just 'give it up' and 'get off-it' and keep our attention focused upon 'The One'. Otherwise, we are just playing, barehanded, with 'honey and feathers'.
The 'self' is a hole out of which we can dig infinite 'dirt'. We must 'erase' the self by contemplating, exclusively, what we want to be. We do not, in this fashion, lose our individuality. Everything that we really like about ourselves will stay with us. And we gradually discover that 'what we really like about ourselves' was the 'un-obstructed "One" expressing itself through us. The 'self' was just an obstacle.

.

solomon levi
09-09-2009, 06:21 PM
I was thinking last night...
(the language I use is Castanedic)

Sanity is relative, based on agreement.
Sanity is the ability to assemble the world out of chaos/infinity.
The "world" is not an objective fact or reality, but rather a
description we learn from our parents and peers as infants.
Sanity is the ability to recognize and interact within the shared
acceptable constructs of society.

Insanity has several varieties:
1. One is unable to assemble the world as others do.
2. One perceives emanations outside the norm,
and generally is unable to manage them.
3. One intentionally rejects the narrow-minded "skimmings"
of society and welcomes the unknown, chaos.

This last option is the path I've chosen.
The trick is to not completely disassociate with society...
to keep "blending in" while you go out of your mind.
Another thing I'm learning is to not discriminate -
mainly, to not prefer the euphoric times to the waves of sadness.
I guess it's called "detachment".

What helps me is to not think of my life as my own;
a sort of stoic acceptance of my fate. But by fate I mean
wherever life places me, whatever happens... it must be perfect;
it must be what Life wants. I try to minimize my own wants and let Life happen.
Life is happening everywhere, to everyone. What happens to "me" is
nothing special, not worth pining over - no use feeling sorry or feeling blessed...
Life is happening everywhere. Everywhere the same, yet everywhere unique.

Play_Dough
09-09-2009, 09:30 PM
edited...


I was thinking last night...
(the language I use is Castanedic)

Sanity is relative, based on agreement.
Sanity is the ability to assemble the world out of chaos/infinity.
The "world" is not an objective fact or reality, but rather a
description we learn from our parents and peers as infants.
Sanity is the ability to recognize and interact within the shared
acceptable constructs of society.
...

What helps me is to not think of my life as my own;
a sort of stoic acceptance of my fate. But by fate I mean
wherever life places me, whatever happens... it must be perfect;
it must be what Life wants. I try to minimize my own wants and let Life happen.
Life is happening everywhere, to everyone. What happens to "me" is
nothing special, not worth pining over - no use feeling sorry or feeling blessed...
Life is happening everywhere. Everywhere the same, yet everywhere unique.

Well said.
I wish to add an 'under-the-hood' observation/comment which is based upon the alchemical adage "As Above, So below".

If someone falls and scrapes his or her knee, the knowledge regarding how to regenerate the injured tissue is beyond our capabilities. All that we can do is 'keep the scrape clean' and, otherwise, not interfere with the natural healing processes.

To extrapolate the skinned-knee scenario to the 'above'...... it seems necessary to make an 'inferential leap' to the belief that 'nature' (The One) strives to heal us to the extent that we 'keep the wound clean' and, otherwise, surrender to the natual-flow of healing by embracing a philosophy of 'non-interference' (non-aggravation).

In other words, I believe that we must first embrace a 'fixed' or certain belief that the invisible powers are designed to elevate us, heal us (if necessary), guide us, and, ultimately, 'liberate' us. Then, we begin to 'feed ourselves' into that belief (grist into the mill) and have it (the belief) become a part of our 'reality'.

I believe that a total act of surrender can be suicidal unless we first have a firm belief regarding the end-result of the process into which we are leaping.
As such, the alchemist (opinion) looks to The Emerald Tablet which describes the motivations and methods of 'The One'.

I agree with you regarding the "Castanedic" observation that our 'world' is held together by our beliefs.
Plato also subscribes to this 'belief equals reality' cosmology, with the added observation (implied also by Carlos) that status-quo reality is, fundamentally, 'bondage for the spirit'. Essentially, 'status-quo' constructs are ultimately damning and should be questioned and investigated (philosophically), and replaced, where necessary.

I suppose the 'tough part' is in transforming dysfunctional beliefs (i.e., the purely scientific paradigm) into a more 'user-friendly' context, and then to go about 'surrendering to our newfound belief'; to partially 'sever our ties' with the unconscious masses and to pursue our 'true path'. The metaphor is the 'hatchling pecking its way out of the egg'.

In other words, we 'surrender', armed fully (as fully as possible) with the belief that we are surrendering to the 'flow of the all good', which has our best-interests as a priority. (This is a meditative-reprogramming exercise).

To surrender without that belief is (opinion) simply to surrender to a probable oblivion.

I suppose that the 'alchemical metaphor' is that 'status-quo reality' is 'Saturnian lead', and our job is to participate (dynamic surrender) in the process that is designed to 'extract' the gold (purified spirit - Mercurius) from the 'heavy base metals' that represent the status-quo matrix in which our 'gold' is entombed.

After that, all that remains (of the process) is the 'dying in a bad opera' part. http://forum.alchemyforums.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I am reminded of 'Ulysses lashed to the mast' and navigating past the screaming sirens (of the corrupted portion of the mind).

.

Seth-Ra
09-09-2009, 10:14 PM
Play_Dough my main man, as always: well said. :)
If I may also add, elaborating on the constuct principles of Order and Chaos: to fully surrender to Chaos is to surrender to oblivion, to full surrender to Order is to surrender to enslavement. We start as being in Order, structures given by society, but we must break free of those by the work of Chaos, and balance both Order & Chaos with Scales of Truth, this achieves both Alchemical Union, and also freedom and structure, all consisting of Truth.

What good is breaking down (Chaos) without recreating (Order), and how can creation (Order) progress without the questions and fires of Chaos, and how can either be used without Understanding of Truth? ;)

~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
09-10-2009, 06:08 AM
Good evening brothers.

I understand the belief in the good, but it is not my way any more.
I practiced that for nearly 20 years.
I've seen that people have a misconception of "enlightenment" as being all good;
but I see enlightenment as being all.

I don't believe in belief - I mean basically belief is escaping what is.
But I do agree with the Castanedan "believing because one has to believe"
which I don't think many people get what that is. But I would say we don't "have
to" believe in the good. I certainly don't.

Oblivion? I'm not sure what that means to you.
Being oblivious to the self doesn't seem so bad though.
It seems more true than believing in some version of a self.

In Castanedic teachings, the idea is to allow the emantions inside
the cocoon to merge with those outside of the cocoon, the emenations at large.
I would call that oblivion, i guess. Yet also, evolution. Inevitable.
It happens at death whether we like it or not.
Though a few are able to maintain their awareness (Eagle's gift).

I certainly don't want just the good.
That is not a complete path.
Life transcends the bad and the good.
Divisiveness is not enlightenment.

I try to remove all labels and just place everything under the heading of LIFE.
My sadness is as full as my euphoria.

Suicidal? To the self, yes. Not necessarily to the body.
I desire the suicide of the self.

Joy
09-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Solomon Levi,

why do we have to believe? Does this not fix us at a certain place?

When you destroy the self, deep in your basement, are not all the fixed
believes than gone?

Nice greets Joy:)

horticult
09-10-2009, 09:06 PM
solomon levi,
you are right. To the hell with positive thinking and other nonsenses!

People, do not be correct! :D

Ghislain
09-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Please excuse my self-indulgence, but I really like the point of this thread and so I have tried to question snippets from most posts...devil’s advocate so to speak


Seth-Ra post 6: Once you let go and hold on, you can then allow that which you hold, to be.

I can feel what you imply Seth’ but with a certain trepidation. I can’t put my finger on it, but it stops me fully letting go. Maybe I’m not sure I will like what I find. Maybe I fear not finding anything at all.


Solomon Levi post 8: For me, what the self being an illusion means is that when I look for it, I can't find it. All I find are thoughts/memories that "I" give adhesion to by fixating attention upon it as an entity, which it is not, and by agreeing to the whole continuity of time - past --> present --> future - as a given. The self exists on the faulty foundation of these assumptions/intentions. They are intended selfishly and not investigated unbiasedly. When we really look at them, they don't make sense.

Perhaps self has a preservation agenda of its own giving a new meaning to self preservation. Perhaps it is not that self is the illusion but that the self can’t exist as a single separate entity from the whole. Like a lung or kidney getting delusions of grandeur and trying to separate itself from the body. So self creates its own reality and lives within it.


Solomon Levi post 9: it is the self that is wanting, that has dreams
and desires, that decides to try to alter reality to manifest its desires...
but this same wanting mind cannot receive what it dreams.

Jesus said something like "When you pray/ask for some thing, know (feel) that it is already yours." This describes the journey (or quantum leap) from the wanting mind to the being/having/already is "mind".

I feel a truth in getting what you want, but there is a depth to our desires that we may not be aware of. If you embrace the tenet that you can have whatever it is you want, then to see the result you need a period of time. At first it may appear it has not happened but after a little soul searching you might find that what you thought you wanted on the surface was not what you really wanted at all and what you got was your true desire or what you believed you deserved.


Solomon Levi post 9: The thing is, this happens naturally in very small, quick moments... there is a pause or subconscious void between every thought, a space between each breath. The artist intends to emphasise these spaces and use them - a not-doing, if you will.

Echo’s of the words of Eckhart Tolle, “The Power Of Now”. Do you sense these moments between breaths Sol’. I read Tolle’s book and felt he had definitely discovered something profound, but I am yet to experience what it was. Look at all the space between these words :)


Play_Dough post 10: 'Truth' is what we 'believe' into 'reality'. There are 'cultural truths', 'scientific truths', 'religious truths', and alchemical truths.

Is it not that which we believe into reality that is the actual illusion this thread started with? Can one ever know the actual truth of ‘what is’ or will we always have the illusionary truth we create?


Solomon Levi post 11: but I'm set on this path; I know it's a true path, and I've past the point of no return.

A colleague of mine at work has written on a large card a statement, which he has placed on the wall. I read it every day as I pass it and it makes me wonder...all it says is:

“They think they know, but they don’t”

When I ask him why he wrote it he just smiles.


Solomon Levi post 11: I can't go back to being ignorant now that I've been seeing for several years

I don’t have this gift of seeing Sol’. Can you share what it is you see so I may have a better understanding?

You say you can’t go back as though it is an option you would like. Maybe this brings meaning to the saying, “ignorance is bliss”, as knowing may cause some discomfort. Is it possible to unknow something?


Solomon Levi post 11: The truth is, we're all out of control... but not all of us know it, and even fewer allow it.

“The truth is”, what everyone is searching for. Is it not? And what sort of truth will it be if one finds it?

Sol’ It’s a large presumption to assume “all” are out of control.


rockfate1111 post 13: The more we loose ourselves the more we just be.
When we just be is when I think we are the most beautiful and creative.

Once again similar words to that of Eckhart Tolle Rock’. How does one practice to “just be”?


Play_Dough post 15: The focus is best kept upon 'what it is that we wish to become'; that way the 'self' is diminished because we no longer 'feed it' with the power of our 'attention'.

I have heard this same thing before with dieting or giving up smoking PD. Giving up something is a negative. Changing this to a positive makes it easier. Eating healthier, improving health instead of giving up smoking etc...are more positive. It may be the answer to my dilemma:


Ghislain post 12: I think these feelings are a by product of trying to change...the programmed us' trying to keep the status quo.

But I have no idea what I wish to become. Do you? I mean for you personally not for me :)

Maybe we are already what we should be. Perhaps the question should be why we are not content with the part we now play. If all is One then surely each part is just as important as the next. If we remove ourselves from this equation by not playing our allotted part could we be a detriment to the whole? When a cell in our body changes its roll and continues to divide even though this is not in the body plan then the body ends up with a tumour.


Solomon Levi post 16: Sanity is the ability to recognize and interact within the shared acceptable constructs of society.
Insanity has several varieties: ... . . .
3. One intentionally rejects the narrow-minded "skimmings"
of society and welcomes the unknown, chaos.

Number three in the list seems to correspond with sanity by recognising the narrow-mindedness and interacting by rejection, whereas chaos could be seen as ever-changing order. By living in the Now would bring order to chaos. One could welcome the changing order I don’t think one could welcome chaos. Therefore number three should read, “when one welcomes unknown chaos”, maybe.


Solomon Levi post 16: Another thing I'm learning is to not discriminate -
mainly, to not prefer the euphoric times to the waves of sadness.
I guess it's called "detachment".

Sol’ some may call that apathy.


Play_Dough post 17: To extrapolate the skinned-knee scenario to the 'above'...... it seems necessary to make an 'inferential leap' to the belief that 'nature' (The One) strives to heal us to the extent that we 'keep the wound clean' and, otherwise, surrender to the natual-flow of healing by embracing a philosophy of 'non-interference' (non-aggravation).

PD this sounds very much like the philosophy of the Jehovah Witness movement.


Play_Dough post 17: In other words, I believe that we must first embrace a 'fixed' or certain belief that the invisible powers are designed to elevate us, heal us (if necessary), guide us, and, ultimately, 'liberate' us. Then, we begin to 'feed ourselves' into that belief (grist into the mill) and have it (the belief) become a part of our 'reality'.

and that covers most other religions.

As soon as we try to pigeon-hole a belief it turns around to kick us in the butt.


Play_Dough post 17: In other words, we 'surrender', armed fully (as fully as possible) with the belief that we are surrendering to the 'flow of the all good', which has our best-interests as a priority. (This is a meditative-reprogramming exercise).

I would whole-heartedly agree with the above statement if ‘flow of the all good’ was changed to ‘flow’. To call something good is relative and comparative.


Seth-Ra post 18: If I may also add, elaborating on the constuct principles of Order and Chaos: to fully surrender to Chaos is to surrender to oblivion, to full surrender to Order is to surrender to enslavement. We start as being in Order, structures given by society, but we must break free of those by the work of Chaos, and balance both Order & Chaos with Scales of Truth, this achieves both Alchemical Union, and also freedom and structure, all consisting of Truth.

I can go with the surrender to chaos as oblivion and surrender to order as enslavement (perhaps self confining), but does anyone have any truths to offer? I don’t have any truths to offer and as such I can’t start to imagine what it must be like to have some truths. I can only live in hope that they may come to me. I have my beliefs but they are momentary.


Solomon Levi post 19: I don't believe in belief - I mean basically belief is escaping what is.
I try to remove all labels and just place everything under the heading of LIFE.

I agree with removing labels Sol’, but then you impose another label, “LIFE”. I would place everything under the heading of, “what is”, for me there is less conjecture.

Even if our purpose or truth was to smack us in the face...would we recognise it? Has it already been and gone :(

My longest running belief is in the Tao – the way – the path ... whether that path is an illusion too \o/ who can tell...it works for me :)

If you got to this point then thanks for your perseverance. If you know what is then please pass it on :D

Ghislain

Play_Dough
09-11-2009, 01:39 AM
http://www.imageuploads.net/ims/pic.php?u=32803xZHKX&i=174003

Reality Sandwich - The Two Thieves called 'Good' and 'Bad'

....and he turned to the good thief and said, "Today, you, the good, will be with me in paradise".

'Mercury' is called 'The Prince of Thieves' - 'Mercury' is consciousness which can embrace and incorporate 'the-pairs-of-opposites' ...
alchemy tells us that 'mercury can be highly toxic' - 'Philosophical Mercury' is best empty of anything but 'The All Good'

In the beginning, "The One" created 'some stuff' and saw that it was 'good'.
"The One" then created some more stuff and saw that it too 'was good'.
Then "The One" said to One's-self, "Man, this stuff is really good"!
"Oh yea, 'Man'.... I will now create a Man, so he can enjoy all of this stuff".

enter Adam .....

"The One" said to Adam, "Adam, all of this stuff is good and if you would like more stuff just ask.
However, I caution you to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of both 'Good' & 'Evil', because once you
introduce the concept of 'evil' into your consciousness then I must kick your ass according to the template of 'evil'.
So, it is best for you 'to keep to the all-good' and forget about my other half. Your experiences are, for the most part, a
projection of your consciousness, so KEEP EVIL, AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF EVIL, OUT OF YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS and you will be just fine."

Continuing... "The One" said to Adam, "Adam, I have made you in My own image and likeness, except for your
reproductive organ, which is much smaller. However, later in history you will get 'spam e-mails' telling you how to correct this
deficiency. Is there anything else that I can do for you"?

Adam reflected and then asked, "Can I have a 'helpmate'"?

"The One" complied and then advised, "Adam, if you eventually get yourself into a jam then you will be forced to
journey through both 'testaments' (which will be revealed to you). However, the 'fail safe' method for getting back
here to the garden of 'The All Good' is to simply surrender and 'get off' your personal judgments of 'good and evil' because
these are subjective and inconsequential. Everything emanates from 'The All-Good' and serves it's purposes. Just hold everything
in your consciousness as 'All Good' and you will be returned here, intact. You will be restored to 'the original and eternal person', that I created.
Here is your 'help-mate' (Ohhhh la la!), so pack your bags and get ready to meet a person named 'Moses'. Later, a person named 'Hermes'
will provide you with some 'clues' about your 'return trip'; the 'clues' will be encoded and will contain information about how to escape from 'behind enemy lines'".

Eve Ohhhh-la la! then spoke to Adam and said, "Adam, can we go out to eat tonight"?

The rest is history.
---
Image above (Reality Sandwich - The Two Thieves) created (today, after reading, contemplating and posting in this thread) by Play_Dough who was inspired by Seth-Ra, Ghislain, horticult, rockfate1111, Joy, and especially inspired by Solomon Levi who originated this most engaging alchemical thread.

.

Seth-Ra
09-11-2009, 02:53 AM
I like playing "Devil's Advocate" myself, as it checks your current thinking and your current Truths.

Now I said that like that ( the Truth part) because I think I'll throw this out there: What if "Truth" is subjective according to being. I'll elaborate; consider all things "chaos" (possibilities, like a blank canvas), and "Truth(s)" are the constructs, the Personal Order of each ones reality. As you grow, you question (chaos - fire of change) and by this impliment of chaos, you transmute your Order, and thus your Truths. So to go unto total chaos, nothing/possibilities, then your Truths must be all possibilities also, but that's all maleable, according to each living beings perception. (I'm reflecting on my dream trip to the plant kingdom-realm, seeing it through their conceptual reality.)

also, Play_Dough, I liked your last post, humorous with a point, stylish.
:cool:
nice pic also. :)
I could be mistaken but I think all of our inputs are starting to "merge", like we all are grasping an aspect of the same thought, and saying the same thing, but in a different way; which is a good example of the Truth constructs being unique to every living thing, yet the same concept (possibilities born of chaos) meshed together to form the same colors, but different shape, or how ever you'd wish to word that. ;)

good stuff.

Play_Dough
09-11-2009, 03:44 AM
I like playing "Devil's Advocate" myself, as it checks your current thinking and your current Truths.

Now I said that like that ( the Truth part) because I think I'll throw this out there: What if "Truth" is subjective according to being. I'll elaborate; consider all things "chaos" (possibilities, like a blank canvas), and "Truth(s)" are the constructs, the Personal Order of each ones reality. As you grow, you question (chaos - fire of change) and by this impliment of chaos, you transmute your Order, and thus your Truths. So to go unto total chaos, nothing/possibilities, then your Truths must be all possibilities also, but that's all maleable, according to each living beings perception. (I'm reflecting on my dream trip to the plant kingdom-realm, seeing it through their conceptual reality.)

also, Play_Dough, I liked your last post, humorous with a point, stylish.
:cool:
nice pic also. :)
I could be mistaken but I think all of our inputs are starting to "merge", like we all are grasping an aspect of the same thought, and saying the same thing, but in a different way; which is a good example of the Truth constructs being unique to every living thing, yet the same concept (possibilities born of chaos) meshed together to form the same colors, but different shape, or how ever you'd wish to word that. ;)

good stuff.

Seth-Ra! Bless you.

Within the realm of the 'occult' (hidden)... there is an 'item' called 'Chaos Magic'.
The best definition (mine) of 'Chaos Magic' is 'the ability to rapidly change 'core beliefs' in order to rearrange 'reality'.

Most of our 'core beliefs' have been handed to us 'off-the-rack' by our cultural paradigm. Many of these 'off-the-rack' beliefs are, frankly, dysfunctional.

As one (opinion) succeeds in his or her alchemical practice (inner), 'obscurity flees' (see, The Emerald Tablet) from our mind and emotions, and 'powers' are restored.

We, at some point, arrive at the 'place' where we 'see' that the cultural paradigm is, for the most part: profane, silly, self-defeating, difficult, enslaving, goofy, and ... fill in the blank.

Anyway, from our renewed 'clarity' we begin to understand that the 'contents of consciousness' actually affects 'reality'. So, in order to change 'reality' we need only to 'change a core belief'.

The entry-level alchemist expresses this process by abandoning (somewhat) 'status-quo / off-the-rack and on-the-cross reality' by deciding to transform base-metals into gold. This indicates the start of 'breaking the bonds' of the death-grip of the contemporary (and past) paradigm which believes that 'alchemy' is ridiculous.

The ancient art of astrology (a close relative of alchemy, along with The Tarot) teaches that 'reality', especially 'material reality', often takes a bit of time to transform itself (herself, actually) and is symbolized by a bull (Taurus). So, any new belief that we embrace is likely to take a bit-of-time before it manifests fully.

So, the 'chaos magician', sees 'poverty' and calls it 'wealth' (and believes it) and eventually the 'poverty' is transmuted into true wealth (only one of a zillion examples).

Alchemy is a 'way out' of the madness of 'civilization'.
Inquiry to Mahatma Gandhi - "Master, what do you think of Western Civilization"?
Gandhi responding - "It would be a very good idea!"

The 'embedded' cultural beliefs can take a while to houseclean (I am reminded of Stanley Kubrick's, 'A Clockwork Orange'). In fact, one esoteric interpretation of 'the crucifixion' (NT) is that the 'spirit of God' (our true self) becomes 'crucified' by the prevailing cultural paradigm, and is made a 'slave', here in the 'underworld'.

Enter 'alchemy' ... to free the slaves. To 'extract' the smothered golden divine consciousness from the Saturnian lead matrix that has been created by Man.
To upend (eventually) all of the dysfunctional cultural nonsense and to seek and find 'liberation'.

Anyhow, your comments (posts) in this thread make great sense to me when viewed through the lens of 'Chaos Magic'.

We have been told (paradigm) 'who and what we are'.... and it is a lie, a terrible lie.

It is within our grasp to seize the opportunity to begin to 'remember' our true self.
So, as I inferred from your posts (this thread) we can employ cultural beliefs when they serve our enlightened purpose; and discard them when they become obsolete, and then replace them with something entirely new (for us).
Seth-Ra, you speak in the dialogue of an emerging master.

.

Ghislain
09-11-2009, 11:58 AM
PD, when you talk of “the all good” does that imply that there is no “evil”?


Play_Dough post 17:We have been told (paradigm) 'who and what we are'.... and it is a lie, a terrible lie.

Can anyone say who fabricated the lie, how has it been perpetuated and for what reason?

Everything must have a reason IMHO

Ghislain

solomon levi
09-11-2009, 07:50 PM
Solomon Levi,

why do we have to believe? Does this not fix us at a certain place?

When you destroy the self, deep in your basement, are not all the fixed
believes than gone?

Nice greets Joy:)

Greetings Joy.

Having to believe is a part of the warriors' way. It's not about fixation.
Let's see if I can explain with an example:
Warrior-seers know that the mystery that is the universe is infinite and
that one can never hope to comprehend it, and yet they strive to unravel the mystery,
they act as if it is possible, knowing that it's not. If they didn't act because of
their knowledge (that they cannot succeed), that would be fixation.
Instead, a warrior has to believe that s/he makes a difference.

I think having to believe is a larger, archetypal scale, and not so much the
little beliefs that we create our personal realities with. I can't describe it very well
but I've seen it. :confused:

Yes, I would say that destroying the self eliminates the fixed beliefs.
The authors/commentators of Patanjali said it well: that one who achieves this
liberation... his karma becomes like burnt seeds that can no longer produce fruit.

:)

solomon levi
09-11-2009, 07:54 PM
solomon levi,
you are right. To the hell with positive thinking and other nonsenses!

People, do not be correct! :D

:D
Someone I knew said, "When your friends start to turn on you, you
know you're on the right path."

I agree, it's a true sign that you are leaving your past, your boxes.

This is a difficult subject anyway... what mind wouldn't be offended by
the suggestion that we go crazy and lose our minds, for no benefit,
no profit, no personal gain... :D

Seth-Ra
09-11-2009, 08:10 PM
Play_Dough, I thank you for your kind words, and elabortation of this "chaos magic", which to be honest, I've been thinking on the properties of chaos and order a lot, specifically approaching from the chaos side, using order ony to define that which you desire from the chaos; chaos to destroy the "obsticle" (what ever it may be), and order used to grasp, and create from the chaos. "solve et coagula", the yin-yang, chaos breaking problematic order, order shaping the chaos for the better. Yes the better "good" is subjective according to person, but isn't that the point of art, it's all seen through the perspective of the artist, and everyone else deals with it, unless an opposing artist addresses, in which case there be a "magic duel" of sides, and usually it changes both artists for a mutual balancing of thoughts, and this balancing, understanding, is part of the overall Truth of Nature.
Case and point: these forums. We each start thinking along our unique artistic lines, "dueling a sorrcerous duel" with one another as our "chaotic orders" clash, and our realities harmonize until we all have a mutual understanding, and understanding is a force more powerful then knowledge; Adam and Eve understood how the garden worked, without knowing evil, but once they knew, it shattered the harmony, for now you know. Modern people and scientists and religious zealots all KNOW their side, and they "think" they KNOW Truth, but none of them Understand Truth of the real Truth of Nature and Harmony. They preach and teach peace, but wage wars with those different, they know, they don't understand, and since they can't understand, they can't practice. (IMO)

Ghislain, you raise a good point: where did the lie come from, as a believer in Bible, (even if you see it only as symolic) I'd say it safe the Lie started in the garden. (as far as people go)
"You will surely not die."
From what I've heard even with the Stone the body can live at a maximum of 1000 years, but the fact is, it MUST die, it's part of the cycle, and it only flows one way. But the notion that you can buck at Nature (and God IMO), it is this notion that breeds greed, anger, hatred and all others that cause destruction to people.
Good news, it will pass, for it all purifies, though it must be get worse before better, really stoke that purifying fires if chaos. ;)

hope I helped. :)

~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
09-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Please excuse my self-indulgence, but I really like the point of this thread and so I have tried to question snippets from most posts...devil’s advocate so to speak

Perhaps self has a preservation agenda of its own giving a new meaning to self preservation. Perhaps it is not that self is the illusion but that the self can’t exist as a single separate entity from the whole. Like a lung or kidney getting delusions of grandeur and trying to separate itself from the body. So self creates its own reality and lives within it.

**** The ego definitely has amazing self-preservation skills. And it is
genuinely innocent and just "doing its job" very well. (Some people like to
make an enemy of it.) But due to what might be called a laziness of spirit,
we have given the ego more authority than it should have, that is, if you
are intending freedom. It's like your parents won't let you play in the street
when you're little, but then if you continued to never cross the street as an adult... so many of the self-preserving items of the ego are no longer necessary,
indeed obstructive, to one looking for broader vistas. *****


Echo’s of the words of Eckhart Tolle, “The Power Of Now”. Do you sense these moments between breaths Sol’. I read Tolle’s book and felt he had definitely discovered something profound, but I am yet to experience what it was. Look at all the space between these words :)

**** I like Tolle... a fine example of someone who came to the point of
suicide to see the truth. It only stresses that this is an insane path! :D
To use Castaneda's example, one cannot volunteer for this - they have to
be tricked by the spirit.
I don't sense the moments between breaths unless I intentionally look
for them, emphasize them. But I also understand their existence scientifically.
I generally become aware of it when I catch myself in fixation/identification
- then I flip the emphasis to allow things, and my 'self', to disperse. *****


Is it not that which we believe into reality that is the actual illusion this thread started with? Can one ever know the actual truth of ‘what is’ or will we always have the illusionary truth we create?

**** In my experience, you can definitely know objective realities.
If there does not exist a truly objective reality, then at least I find it
worthwhile to be as objective as I can.
In the same way that one can choose not to lie about ... their age, for example... as long as you know you're lying, it does no good. But if you go
truly crazy :D, you can actually not know how old you are.
Objectivity would be, in the first instance, not to lie; in the second, to allow
the unknown - to be lost.
That is my argument, not with Seth-Ra, but the one I had with myself,
against creating reality. As long as you know you're creating reality, you haven't done it. ;) ****

I don’t have this gift of seeing Sol’. Can you share what it is you see so I may have a better understanding?

You say you can’t go back as though it is an option you would like. Maybe this brings meaning to the saying, “ignorance is bliss”, as knowing may cause some discomfort. Is it possible to unknow something?

**** It's hard to describe or understand if you haven't seen it, but I can say
that I know when I'm seeing and i know when I am looking through knowledge.
Knowledge is something acquired, it is always the past, the known. And it
always acts as a screen or filter, a dirty cloth the Buddhists call it...
Seeing happens without knowledge, without a past - it is looking at the world as it is
without interfering or imposing one's self, one's knowledge upon it.
Knowledge has it's place, if you want to drive a car or remember a friend's
birthday, but it is an obstruction to seeing, to the truth, to the present. ****

“The truth is”, what everyone is searching for. Is it not? And what sort of truth will it be if one finds it?

Sol’ It’s a large presumption to assume “all” are out of control.

**** Well, control is an illusion just as the self is an illusion. Even the
person with the greatest control still lives in an incomprehensible infinity
if you really look at it. It's the ego's job to make sense of the chaos. But seeing
through the eyes of the ego is only one of a million ways of seeing. *****


I have heard this same thing before with dieting or giving up smoking PD. Giving up something is a negative. Changing this to a positive makes it easier. Eating healthier, improving health instead of giving up smoking etc...are more positive. It may be the answer to my dilemma:

**** This still only affects personal reality. That's fine. I don't disagree
with PD on the ability of the observer to influence what it observes.
I'm only saying that there is still more evolution beyond that ability.
Focussing and concentrating, emphasizing as I have called it, is like putting
those blinds on a horse so it only sees straight ahead. This is for the convenience
of the riders. It's convenient to the self. I'm suggesting going beyond the self;
let the horse see the whole world. Does the world cease to exist because
we put blinders on the horse? *****

Number three in the list seems to correspond with sanity by recognising the narrow-mindedness and interacting by rejection, whereas chaos could be seen as ever-changing order. By living in the Now would bring order to chaos. One could welcome the changing order I don’t think one could welcome chaos. Therefore number three should read, “when one welcomes unknown chaos”, maybe.

**** Well, the past and future are order. The present is more chaotic;
it is unordered. You can't control the present or order it. That's "just being" *****

Sol’ some may call that apathy.

**** Not properly. Apathy is not feeling. I'm feeling more than ever. I'm
simply discarding preferences for what I feel. Giving up control. *****


I agree with removing labels Sol’, but then you impose another label, “LIFE”. I would place everything under the heading of, “what is”, for me there is less conjecture.

**** Well, for me, it's only a label if it divides. For me there is nothing that
is not life. Even death is life, so I'm not using the word as an opposite.
"What is" is a fine choice. *****

Even if our purpose or truth was to smack us in the face...would we recognise it? Has it already been and gone :(

My longest running belief is in the Tao – the way – the path ... whether that path is an illusion too \o/ who can tell...it works for me :)

If you got to this point then thanks for your perseverance. If you know what is then please pass it on :D

Ghislain

:D "Pass it on"?? "Truth is a pathless path." :D

solomon levi
09-11-2009, 09:20 PM
Hey Play Dough.
I just wanted to say to you personally, that I do understand and appreciate
chaos magic or changing core beliefs to broaden/unlimit one's view.
BTW - if that's your bag you might look into NLP as well.

My contention is that all of that is still happening within a self... it is
redefining the self... a self that is still ultimately non-existent.
It exists in the mind, as the mind.

The Garden of Eden is a great example. This story can be read/interpreted
several ways - generally in ways that confirm our current beliefs :) .

I used to think that God was that enslaving alien Jehovah who wanted us
to remain ignorant and subservient, thus "do not eat of the tree of knowledge."

But now I read it differently - "Do not eat of the tree of knowledge, or you
will surely die." Why would we die from knowledge? I guess it depends on your
view - for involution, we must gain a lot of knowledge. But for evolution,
we must lose it. Knowledge, initially offers us new views. But in the end, if
it is not transcended, knowledge becomes a prison - after all, the world we
see is a product of our knowledge and beliefs. Knowledge has a way of making
oneself a product of that knowledge. An effect instead of a cause.

Anyway, when I look, scientifically, objectively, at what knowledge is, it is
the known, and therefore the past, and therefore dead. The present is
unknown and alive. But the ego-self superimposes it's knowledge upon the present,
thus making most people the living dead.
As Jesus said, We must be born again (born anew).

It's interesting that the great Hindu scriptures, The Vedanta, means
"the end of knowledge".

Well, I hope that my posts aren't seen as an effort to change you.
I'm only wanting to explain the differences clearly.

solomon

Play_Dough
09-11-2009, 11:57 PM
PD, when you talk of “the all good” does that imply that there is no “evil”?

Can anyone say who fabricated the lie, how has it been perpetuated and for what reason?

Everything must have a reason IMHO

Ghislain

"when you talk of “the all good” does that imply that there is no 'evil'”?

Hi Grislain,

No, the statement does not imply (is not meant to, anyway) that there is no evil.
It suggests that 'evil' is best 'dealt with' if it (evil) remains as an UNmanifested potentiality.
There are also 2 levels of application:
1) as a guide for one's conduct (thoughts and actions) and
2) as a guide regarding how 'events' are to be interpreted as to produce the least spiritual/psychological difficulty.

The underpinning of the philosophy (opinion) is that "The One" has 2 faces:
1) The Good and
2) The Evil

..... and what 'face' (circumstances, events) "The One" shows to us is a magnified mirror of the face that we show to "The One".

Plato (the real Plato) professed (See, Plato's Allegory of The Cave) that everything emanates from 'Forms'. The 'Realm of Forms' is a highly abstract description of ... hmmmmmm.... say a library of unalterable files (forms)..... which can be copied and then altered in 'The Below'. In fact, everything in 'The Below' incorrectly represents 'the ideal form'. Apparently 'the ideal form' remains 'ideal' only if it remains as 'pure idea'.

>>>>> slight interruption....... Plato (in the 'Allegory', as referenced) states that he 'got of of the cave' and returned to the cave (as a personal mandate) to help free the other prisoners (us).
In other words, Plato extracted the 'gold' from the 'base metals' and stepped outside of space/time (contemporary terms) and saw the previous 'reality' as nothing but 'shadows playing on a wall'.
It seems that Plato felt that 'the shadow realm' had trapped many of his students and associates so Plato returned to share his Philosophy of The All Good. (containing elements incorporated into the New Testament)

O.K. (post interruption continuance) -
Plato said that everything emanates from 'The Form of The All Good'.
As such, 'evil' is always in the service of 'The All Good' if for no other reason than 'evil' is designed to send you away from 'evil' and back towards the 'All Good' (Good untainted by evil).

Part 2
"Can anyone say who fabricated the lie, how has it been perpetuated and for what reason?"

Yes, I have a 'working opinion' (subject to evolving) :
1) 'The Lie' is an accommodation to enhance our (individually) 'illusion'. It (the lie) reaffirms 'the game' that we have chosen to play (i.e., an alchemist).

2) alternate - The material plane can become a 'trap' for a hmmmm... 'spirit' (a soul?) depending how that 'spirit' is reprogrammed by its experiences. As a result, it, unaware, keeps reincarnating into similar circumstances because the 'contents of consciousness' serves as a 'template' for each 'spirit's' 'reality'.

3) an additional 'alternate' (my least favorite) - The material plane is a one dimensional phenomenon which can be a 'trap' for the atrophied-deluded spirit. So, this realm is dominated by ignorance (delusion) of what is truly important.
As a result, the philosophy-of-ignorance is taught to all, starting at a very young age.

Closing comment -
A significant mystery remains in science (and religion) regarding the nature and origin of consciousness.
It cannot be proven that 'consciousness' is an 'emergent trait' of biology (i.e., water pouring forth from a spigot does not prove that the spigot 'creates' water).
Any 'knowledge' regarding the mystery of consciousness remains as a 'philosophical item'.

Spiritual alchemy (opinion) deals with 'consciousness' and calls it 'Mercury' or 'Mercurius'.
As the spiritual alchemist progresses upon his or her path (quest for perfection) then that alchemist finds that by removing corruptions (delusion, error, bad vibes, etc.) that the 3D 'reality' is transformed to reflect the 'newness'. The alchemist/metaphysician finds an intimate link between the contents of consciousness and the external 'reality'.

Mainstream science does not 'go to the places' that alchemy 'goes to' (i.e., 'intuitive leaps' i.e., "As Above, So Below").

So, the 'culture of science' (the 'High Priest' of contemporary culture), which predominates in this 'realm', flees from metaphysics and alchemy and, fundamentally, exists in a 'bone-yard' governed by it's 'sacred book' called 'The Encyclopedia', and dismisses as 'nonsense' any notion or idea that what is written into the sacred book (encyclopedia) is incorrect.
The 'culture of science' is the predominant 'educator' in this realm.
As such, to individuals like Plato, this realm is the realm of shadows which deals with itself as though it were a 'fixed reality', and any assault upon 'The Encyclopedia' is defended with ferocity.

It teaches nothing about 'disintegrating the myth'. It is unaware of it's true nature.

.

Play_Dough
09-12-2009, 12:52 AM
edited.....

Hey Play Dough.

My contention is that all of that is still happening within a self... it is
redefining the self... a self that is still ultimately non-existent.
It exists in the mind, as the mind.
...
Anyway, when I look, scientifically, objectively, at what knowledge is, it is
the known, and therefore the past, and therefore dead. The present is
unknown and alive. But the ego-self superimposes it's knowledge upon the present,
thus making most people the living dead.
As Jesus said, We must be born again (born anew).

It's interesting that the great Hindu scriptures, The Vedanta, means
"the end of knowledge".

Well, I hope that my posts aren't seen as an effort to change you.
I'm only wanting to explain the differences clearly.

solomon

I am in agreement with you regarding the 'past knowledge' issues.

I have read many times (spiritual / metaphysical writings) that, often, 'the tools (knowledge/methods) used in one phase of our growth become albatrosses on the next level. I agree with that statement.

Where I have a different view is regarding the definition of 'self', being:

Without 'a self' we are pure awareness, without any notion of 'self'.
When that 'pure awareness' begins (if it does) to contemplate 'self' it then begins to 'coagulate' into a 'form'.
At some later time, when that 'awareness'-now-with-'self' as an accessory, determines to 'return to pure awareness' then it ceases entertaining the notion of 'self'. It then, gradually, enters into the process of 'dissolution'.

It is quite possible to be 'pure awareness' (merged, individually with "The One") and be without any sense of 'self'.
The experience is pure ecstasy and devoid of any bifurcation of consciousness into 'self' and 'other' (non-self). It is the ultimate 'Uncarved Block' of Eastern philosophy.

So, the state of 'no self' is 'aware' but devoid of 'self'.

no self - dissolution (pure awareness)
self - coagulation (awareness subjectified)

'Self' and 'no-self' both have 'awareness' as a least common denominator.

To have the desire to 'get rid of the self' actually tethers us to 'the self' because we cannot play the game of 'getting rid off self', if we don't have a 'self'.
The key to 'getting rid of', is (opinion) to re-direct one's attention away from 'the self' and to focus upon "The One". To go into 'dissolution'. To no longer 'feed' the illusion (can be pleasant or not) of the 'coagulated self'.

The 'self' is magical! It can 'show up' in the virtual 'blink-of an-eye' just by thinking about it. It disappears by ceasing to think about it.
How long it takes for the 'self' to dissolve (disappear), I suppose, is determined by how formidable we made that 'self'.

These 'selfs' are designed, by nature, to captivate us. To provide us with a full and rich experience by having us (temporarily) actually become it.

A problem that can arise is when a continued course of action regarding 'getting rid of the self' is embedded into consciousness. The 'problem' is a form of 'alchemical/spiritual bulimia' (binging and purging). So, as a result, we wind up in a long-term 'purgative mode' wherein we are trying to 'dig' our way to the 'end of a hole' (stuck in 'Purgative Mode').

There is hardly any 'problem' when we arrive at 'a self' whom we really like!
Or, when we become free (hypothetical) of the mental/emotional pattern that oppressively assaults 'the self'.

Perhaps the alchemical notion of 'The Alchemical Marriage' may shed some additional light.
The Alchemical Marriage (opinion-interpretation) is the eternal union of 'awareness' with 'context'. The 'marriage' can be blissful or tyrannical, or anywhere in-between.
The 'quality of the 'marriage' is adjusted by 'consciousness' - 'nice' produces 'nice' results; 'harsh' produces 'harsh' results.

The key question to ask is "WHO is it that keeps trying to get rid of 'the self' and will that 'WHO' remain if the 'self' is vanquished?

As always, with profound respect and admiration.

P.S. - Your posts DO change me. They make me think, analyze, assimilate, probe and evolve.

.

solomon levi
09-12-2009, 06:21 AM
:)
It's true, only the self wants to get rid of the self.
My intention is merely to see it for what it is.
I make no efforts to eradicate it - I just look for it and can't find it.
But when I'm not looking, not enquiring, the dream of the self
sneaks back upon me and covers me like a veil.

I like your description of dissolution and coagulation.
I think that's how it is. The dissolution of the self = the all.
The coagulation of the all = a self.

Play_Dough
09-12-2009, 08:13 AM
:)
It's true, only the self wants to get rid of the self.
My intention is merely to see it for what it is.
I make no efforts to eradicate it - I just look for it and can't find it.
But when I'm not looking, not enquiring, the dream of the self
sneaks back upon me and covers me like a veil.

I like your description of dissolution and coagulation.
I think that's how it is. The dissolution of the self = the all.
The coagulation of the all = a self.

Quote "The dissolution of the self = the all.
The coagulation of the all = a self." (End Quote)

Solomon Levi,

You started this thread, and as a result, we who participated removed the dross and uncovered the gold and you assembled and analyzed and restated 'the gold' (as quoted above) and expressed that restatement as/into what I consider to be the E=MC squared, of alchemy.

The dissolution of the self = the all.
The coagulation of the all = a self.

You have fashioned a 'golden key' out of 5000 years of alchemy.

Words can not go beyond this place....

.

Ghislain
09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
:)
AMEN

solomon levi
09-15-2009, 12:33 AM
http://www.alanjohns.fsnet.co.uk/goldmember/goldmember.jpg

"I love Gooooooolden keys!" :D

Awani
09-19-2009, 08:46 PM
Words can not go beyond this place....

He he, nice!

:)

blackwavy
02-03-2010, 06:47 AM
The Self consist of the physical, mental and spiritual combined. Selflessness, is good to a certain extent. Your are at a disadvantage--cheating yourself from true happiness. Satisfying your self is the ultimate right that truly yours. When we are temperament, we most of the time put our issues and pleasures behind to satisfy others.

The mind is not physical but is spiritual. The mind has no limitations and is not bound to the body. The brain is the seat of the mind. We imagine and we dream that is where our minds are at a given moment. About life being an illusion, I think that is absolutely true. What ever is in our minds, that is our reality. One thing that we all as humans have in command is our ability to see in the 3rd dimension.

Andro
02-04-2010, 05:18 PM
The dissolution of the self = the all.
The coagulation of the all = a self.

Dissolve and Coagulate = Higher Self

a.k.a. Multiplication

:)

Awani
02-14-2010, 04:38 PM
What ever is in our minds, that is our reality.

And reality is thus unreal?

I am in agreement, I am just questioning myself...

:cool:

solomon levi
06-30-2012, 12:38 AM
"It (Wisdom) comes only to those who, abandoning self, sacrifice themselves in the spirit of Wisdom. Those who seek truth for their own benefit and gratification will never find it. But the truth finds those in whom the delirium of "self" disappears, and it becomes manifest in them." - Paracelsus

http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/paracelsusone.html

pneumatician
06-30-2012, 02:01 AM
It (Wisdom) comes only to those who...

wisdom, truh & co. come or you can take,. all are in front of your nose.

or follow this, also words of paracels:

"If God would not impart the secrets of physic, it was not only allowable, but was justifiable, to consult the devil".
Paracels

solomon levi
06-30-2012, 04:19 AM
The topic is illusion of the self.
If you want to make a new topic, copy what i said and reply in a new thread.

otove
09-02-2012, 05:52 PM
IMHO
There is only One. EGO is the fallacy that there are individuals. The Ego cannot exist without the mind.
The mind is only a characteristic of our being, but Ego puts the individual us’ above all else.
In meditation many try to blank out the mind (ego) to feel the truth that lies behind it.

A chair is a chair and has no delusion of being anything else. Try being a chair and you will not last very long as it is not in your character to be a chair.
A chair plays its part as a chair much better than we do. One day we may have the privilege to be a chair, or part thereof.
A question this brings to mind is, “we know what purpose a chair serves – what might our purpose be”?

There is no separate being called God; God is the One that everything is an integral part of. Hence God is omnipotent and omnipresent.


Death is a word we created to explain the end of being human or the end of what we describe as life (?)...as all is One then there is no death or life, these are just descriptive words for a state of being.

Again may I reiterate that all above is IMHO

This opinion may change in the next nanosecond or so :)

Wow, that is exactly what i was looking for! One certainly needs patience! Thankyou Ghislain :D

otove
09-02-2012, 05:58 PM
I can't go back to being ignorant now that I've been seeing for several years.

solomon

Castaneda mentions seeing. What does he/Don Juan mean exactly by 'seeing'. When one sees, one has their will, but he never really describes what seeing is. Cheers,

Otove

Avatar
09-02-2012, 07:52 PM
The true self.
Is the self identifier.
The mirror.

The illusion.
Is that we are that which we self identify with.
The reflection.


I.me.mine.myself.we.ours. etc. These are self identifying words.

My thoughts. My feeling. My mind. We believe we possess these things. When in reality.these things posses us. For is it not feeling that determines the state of mind? For an angry man is angry because he feels angry. Think as many angry thoughts as you want. You will not be angry till you feel it.

Thus the analogy of the two birds on the tree. One eats the fruit of the bitter n sweet. The other only observes for he is the see'er.

Samadhi actually stops the self identification process and frees one from the senses.

Sexual alchemy. At the lower stages. The bliss. Will unite the body with mind. Making mind autonomous.
This is personal opinion. It is a large topic. Baby's are like a mirror with no reflection/self identification.
Man honestly can become anything in mind. So then only the highest potential of the body and spirit can determine what mans true nature is.

Seth-Ra
09-02-2012, 08:09 PM
The ability to see and the ability to experience - both are subject to the possibility of free will.
What is your true nature? ;)



~Seth-Ra

Krisztian
09-02-2012, 08:50 PM
In practical terms, the illusion of self seems more like a dissolving of what we think of ourselves, and the addiction to our roles, self-image, body issues, cultural-identifications, programming of specific education and learning, etc., becomes less relevant to need to define ourselves. If one can tolerate that, overtime there's great freedom in such practical living. No defenses needed. No fighting for this or that cause. You're free. Free from yourself, from the identification of something specific.

The battle is with ourselves. My observations also tell me that if one can venture into such "realm" without, for lack of a better term, "going crazy" then that's worthwhile. However, I see good many undertake such mysticism, or align with such a concept, because their primary personality is very wounded, like people struggling with Borderline Personality Disorder (DSM-IV). Take a look at the symptoms of such Personality-type, and therein you'll see why someone would have tendency for engaging in such concepts for defenses.

Please do not misunderstand me. I mean no thing offensive. I just have seen good many very wounded people (in my therapy sessions) hide in these mystical concepts to feel better. So, not all who undertake such journey is from a place of the genuine. That's my point.

otove
09-02-2012, 08:58 PM
The ability to see and the ability to experience - both are subject to the possibility of free will.
What is your true nature? ;)

~Seth-Ra

Where to start Seth Ra?! I have read that we are fighting habit energy (Thich Nhat Hanh), the past holding our Will to ransom, so to speak, but if we are here in the, "Now with no name" who is controlling the finer mechanism behind our back?

Where does controller of vital function (heart rate, catching the falling cup, etc) end and the decider begin? Where does my Will end and Gods Will Begin?

Surely the Self is also God, or at-least his Persona, making Life his Creative/Formative Character (My true Nature)?

Certainly a lot of knots to untie! :confused:

solomon levi
09-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Castaneda mentions seeing. What does he/Don Juan mean exactly by 'seeing'. When one sees, one has their will, but he never really describes what seeing is. Cheers,

Otove

Castaneda gave a couple definitions. Usually it is considered as "seeing" energy as it flows in the universe,
but that can have several interpretations as well IMO. Often it had to do with seeing energy bodies of people
as a luminous egg or bristles and fibers of light. At another time, seeing is also defined as knowing something
in an absolute sense, or having a "gut feeling" or certainty about the truth of a vision/thought. CC says "seeing"
is not to be mistaken/confused/identified with the eyes - seeing happens with the full body, the energy body, perhaps
every cell of your body knows...
So seeing has a connection with knowingness, gnosis, direct perception, and probably "that which is".

also note the quote in my signature - seeing is acting.
There is a lot of connection there between acting, action, karma, assiyah, what is, etc...

otove
09-10-2012, 09:23 AM
At another time, seeing is also defined as knowing something
in an absolute sense, or having a "gut feeling" or certainty about the truth of a vision/thought.

The film Donnie Darko seemed to show a form of 'Seeing', Donnie sees his will (as a sort of watery tube) coming from his stomach and meandering toward some unknown object. He chooses to follow it and it leads him. I imagined seeing to be much like this, especially with the "gut feeling" you mentioned before.