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Ghislain
08-24-2009, 07:23 PM
I have been reading about Vitriol and was surprised what little direct information there is. I am aware that Vitriols are sulphates of divalent metals, but I am more confused now than before I read up.

I can only find good information about vitriol of Iron and Copper...what about all the others.

Also I was looking at how vitriols are used in the process of creating acids...but it didn't seem to matter which vitriol one uses...is that right?

Cyprus Vitriol keeps coming up in texts, but if I search for information about it I can only find information on its uses...Fe, CuSO4 as I have no chemistry background I am not sure how to read this formula. why is the Fe separated by a comma? I found the CuSO4 to be copper sulphate I was wondering what you have to do with iron to get the Fe bit?

Does one make cyprus vitriol or buy it?

Thanks

Ghislain

solomon levi
08-26-2009, 06:10 PM
I don't know much on this but...

Zinc was another popular vitriol - white vitriol
Copper was blue vitriol and iron green vitriol.

Another common substance classified as a vitriol is alum - which I think, without
checking, is potassium aluminum sulphate.

Cyprus vitriol would be the copper one - Cyprus = Kyprus, Kupros, Copper...
It's an island where copper was mostly mined back in the day.


Here's a link I found helpful:
http://www.triad-publishing.com/stone20e.html

Ghislain
08-29-2009, 08:24 AM
Thanks Sol'

Interesting reading; the thread lead me to a plant called Bearberry...check it out - especially the wiki link
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-08/1157033871
http://earthnotes.tripod.com/bearberry_h.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearberry

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-30-2009, 12:11 AM
I put two copper coins in a solution of white vinegar and sea salt. Through these I put a charge and very quickly, what I presume was, copper oxide started to form on one coin and the solution turned blue.


Set Up (http://genius.toucansurf.com/P8270189.JPG)


The vinegar was boiled off leaving a Blue Salt (http://genius.toucansurf.com/P8290191.JPG). Is this copper sulphate or just blue sea salt?

Please excuse the sideways pics...i must learn to use a camera :)

Aleilius
08-31-2009, 03:43 AM
Since you used vinegar, that blue salt is probably copper acetate, with possibly some copper chloride impurities (from adding the sea salt).

Why would copper sulfate be formed? There's no sulfates there to react with!

Ghislain
08-31-2009, 09:22 AM
I have no background in chemistry :( not even the basics. Would it be useful to do a basic course in chemistry?


Fe, CuSO4 as I have no chemistry background I am not sure how to read this formula. Why is the Fe separated by a comma? I found the CuSO4 to be copper sulphate I was wondering what you have to do with iron to get the Fe bit?

Hi Aleilius

When I say I have no background in chemistry, that’s for real...I understand that copper sulphate is produced by reacting copper with sulphuric acid so I assumed that any acid would create some copper sulphate. I guess from your previous post I assumed wrong.

Alongside the blue solution there was a lot of very dark almost black sediment coming from one coin. If I smudged this out on my finger it looked dark purple...what would that be?

WCH
08-31-2009, 07:28 PM
Unless you're doing something way beyond what I assume to be your (or mine, or probably just about anyone's) skill level, there isn't going to be any elemental transmutation in your work. So there's not going to be a sulphate unless there's sulphur being added somewhere... hence sulphuric acid.

Aleilius
08-31-2009, 11:11 PM
Hi Ghislain, I hope you didn't take any offense to my previous reply.


Alongside the blue solution there was a lot of very dark almost black sediment coming from one coin. If I smudged this out on my finger it looked dark purple...what would that be?
It's possible that's an oxide of copper, but this is speculation. You can check for this by adding more vinegar, and if it dissolves into a blue solution then we're correct in our assumption that it's an oxide.

I have some copper acetate I made a while back. It's a lovely blue color.

Vitriol often refers to the sulfate crystals of an element (copper sulfate, iron sulfate, etc), but this is not always the case. Vitriol can be a general term for any crystallized matter.

solomon levi
09-01-2009, 05:33 PM
I have some copper acetate I made a while back. It's a lovely blue color.

Vitriol often refers to the sulfate crystals of an element (copper sulfate, iron sulfate, etc), but this is not always the case. Vitriol can be a general term for any crystallized matter.

Yeah, the root "Vitri" means 'glass'.

Here's my thread with copper acetate pics:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=689

You can see they're pretty dark blue. I didn't crush them, but they may appear purple. ???

Aleilius
09-01-2009, 11:45 PM
Yes, I've noticed that the color tends to vary when crystallized vs. powdered (deeper/different hues). Also calcination plays a role in bringing out / destroying the color.

I've powdered and calcined mine, and it's a really lovely blue color.

Ghislain
09-05-2009, 10:35 AM
The blue salt in the pic’ before was from a second try at producing it.

To boil off the liquid I placed a glass bowl on a ceramic hob. The first time I tried this the bowl cracked and the liquid went all over the top of the hob. Rather than waste it I got a spatula and kept flicking the liquid onto the hot ring. This was fine until at last the liquid boiled off leaving only the salt, which quickly turned from blue to brown to black.

Again, not wanting to waste anything I scraped up the mess and added it to some water I collected in a storm. (oh yeh...I had put a little gold leaf in to the liquid before boiling off...just curious). I placed this mixture into an absinth miniature bottle I had laying about. I shook it up and left it to settle.

The bottle. (http://genius.toucansurf.com/vitriol movie.wmv) Sorry the cam was on its side. I’ll never make it into movies!

As can be seen everything settled to the top of the bottle. After disturbing it, it all graduated to the bottom.
For no good reason I placed the bottle – being small – into the sand bath alongside another flask. About two days later it looked like below:

Bottle. (http://genius.toucansurf.com/absynth%20bottle.jpg)
Close up. (http://genius.toucansurf.com/absynth%20bottle%20close%20up.jpg)

Looks like another film is needed :(

There is a little black sediment, there is the gold leaf, but now there is some rainbow coloured crystaline stuff. The liquid has a very slight green twinge to it and tastes - yes sol' I tasted it :) - a bit acetic.

Ghislain
09-05-2009, 11:49 AM
Bottle film (http://genius.toucansurf.com/abs bottle.wmv )

It took a while to get the camera angle but I finally got it.

What's in the bottle?

Ghislain
09-05-2009, 12:37 PM
I took the blue salt in post 4 and onto this dripped H2SO4. There was a violent reaction and some pungent fumes and heat. I kept adding H2SO4 until the reaction stopped. I have left this to stand for a few days and the result is below.

Glass with result. (http://genius.toucansurf.com/Movie_0001.wmv) Went straight to film here.

There is still a quite acrid smell coming from the glass. The glass has been kept outside with no cover on it.

What should I do with it?

Ghislain
09-08-2009, 11:24 AM
I have two Blue Liquids (http://genius.toucansurf.com/blue%20liquids.JPG) produced in different ways.

On the right is the electrolyte used, made from white vinegar and salt, while passing a charge through two copper electrodes; previously suggested to be copper acetate.

On the left a precipitate (http://genius.toucansurf.com/copper%20oxide.JPG) of the above electrolysing which was presumed to be cuprous oxide, Cu2O (copper oxide (I) ), a red powder when dried. This was heated to produce cupric oxide, CuO (copper oxide (II), a black powder. This powder was then mixed with hot dilute H2SO4. Is this copper sulphate?

solomon levi
09-08-2009, 05:12 PM
Are they light blue crystals? That's what my copper sulphate is (from the clay shop).

I was thinking about this today - since you asked about vitriol and about chemicals -
you may be able to do something with Epsom salts which you can get at any
Pharmacy. They're magnesium sulphate.

Yvain
09-13-2009, 04:42 AM
Since you used vinegar, that blue salt is probably copper acetate, with possibly some copper chloride impurities (from adding the sea salt).

Why would copper sulfate be formed? There's no sulfates there to react with!

It is possible that there would be CuSO4, but only in trace amounts. The sulfur would have come from the atmosphere, a result of burning coal for almost two centuries. Atmospheric sulfur is also the reason why silver tarnishes.

Yvain
09-13-2009, 05:24 AM
I have two Blue Liquids (http://genius.toucansurf.com/blue%20liquids.JPG) produced in different ways.

On the right is the electrolyte used, made from white vinegar and salt, while passing a charge through two copper electrodes; previously suggested to be copper acetate.

On the left a precipitate (http://genius.toucansurf.com/copper%20oxide.JPG) of the above electrolysing which was presumed to be cuprous oxide, Cu2O (copper oxide (I) ), a red powder when dried. This was heated to produce cupric oxide, CuO (copper oxide (II), a black powder. This powder was then mixed with hot dilute H2SO4. Is this copper sulphate?

Not likely, oxygen bonds pretty tightly with metals such as copper or iron, (this is why we need hemoglobin, so the oxygen does not bind to tightly with the iron in our blood!). To get CuSO4, the best method is to mix copper(II) oxide and sulfuric acid. To get a complete reaction requires some math and a reaction formula.

CuO + H2SO4 --> CuSO4 + H2O
For measurements of the required amounts, a periodic table and a chemistry scale will be needed.

5g CuO + ?H2SO4 --> ?CuSO4 + H2O

CuO= 79.54g /mol
H2SO4= 2.02+32.07+15.99*4=98.05g/mol

5g CuO/(79.54g/mol)= 0.0638mol CuO

So you need 0.0638 mol of H2SO4

(98.05g/mol)*0.0638 mol= 6.26g H2SO4

To get a 1M concentration of the acid, dissolve dry H2SO4 in 0.08 L of water. Then drop in your CuO and wait. Once the CuO is gone, the reaction has gone to completion and you may drive off the water by heating. If you want the blue crystals, I would suggest heating the solution in a crucible on a flame until the copper sulfate starts to form, then scoop out the material and let it dry for a time near a heat source, like a heat lamp. Just don't leave it near the heat source to long, or you will get anhydrous CuSO4 which is a greenish white, which is not the CuSO4*5H20 (the blue crystals you want), and you will have to start over. It takes a gentle heat to get the blue crystals. ;)