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Thread: Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Alchemy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    It's quite difficult to have a constructive discussion among un-like minded...
    Well that is why it is a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    ...as long as they don't claim I should be chopped and burned or censored for my orientation...
    Yes, no personal attacks please, see Rules & Guidelines

    Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

  2. #22
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    It seems a metaphor I made was taken out of context. I never set any "guidlines" for the metaforical "fruit", I left that for interpretation, for example: ideas, cures, transmutations - these things can be good "fruits".

    It would be wise to not come into a "touchy" subject as this with a "victim" mentality, or with feelings on shoulders - it makes for misunderstandings and is not becoming for us who are supposed to be understanding and at peace with all.

    With that aside, I'd still like to see proof, both in alchemical texts and Nature that validates the "union of same" and births good fruits from said union. Keep in mind Nature herself isn't infalable as she is "striving towards perfection" and thus currently is not, hence why we have our Art. So to just show that some "flukes" in nature may exivit this behavior, does not show that it is a step in the right direction, again show me texts and examples of nature where the results are seen as Right.
    (and so as to not have this used against me I call said behavior a "fluke" in nature because the majority of the creatures who's sexes are as ours, male and female, unite opposites and it is truly rare and odd for two of like kind to do so.)

    Dev, I also have to disagree with "everyone is Bi", though I cannot speak for everyone, I myself am a guy and find NO such attraction to other guys at ALL. If my comments are labeled as "homophobic" I don't really care, but I would like to point out that if that is te case, then unless I agree with you, then you think, and label me, as being "afraid" of homosexuality. I'm not one for being "bullied" into agreeing with something I don't. So I think it would be fair to drop all the name calling, and again site fact: Alchemical texts of proper unions, and Nature, and the results of these unions. Otherwise all of this will simply be: "I don't agree with you." | "Well I don't agree with you either." - end.

    I'm all for discussing facts and opinions backed by them, even if it ends as everyone shaking hands and disagreeing, but knowing where they stand, and who knows, perhaps with that we could notice diferences in the different "forms" of alchemy.

    Just a thought.

    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  3. #23
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    Seth'

    I can see where you are coming from in the, "I am no way Bi area", but you have to look deeper.

    Have you ever had a same sex friend who you really...and I mean really...got on
    well with; one who you loved to spend a lot of time with. Many of us have a
    friend of the same gender who people joke that ‘they should be a couple’. My
    brother-in-law has a friend who my sister calls his wife...they have been friends
    since childhood and do everything together. More 'manly' men you could never
    meet...to suggest to them they might be Bi would be fighting talk.

    Society dictates what we should be; and many of us are not even aware it is
    happening. Let me put forward a random premise:

    Let’s choose for an example a woman with a lip plate.
    She works in your local bank...you see here every day and find she has a bubbly
    personality...she shares the same interests as you...you could be soul mates...you
    want to ask here out for a date...but there is one thing stopping you, it's that darn
    plate she wears in her mouth. It would be a disaster to be seen out with her,
    people would stare.

    However if by some strange occurrence you happened to have been adopted at
    birth by her tribe and were brought up with their societal perspectives the plate
    would be the attracting feature that would make you notice her in the first place.

    It is a fact that we carry both male and female characteristics...I have nipples
    'and a nice pair of legs even if I do say so' He He
    So it is not that unlikely that we carry some of the feelings of the other sex too.

    The thing is that because of our unwritten taboos (meme's) we suppress them, sometimes
    so deeply that we convince ourselves they don’t exist... sometimes to the point
    that we find the mere suggestion of them abhorrent.

    Ghislain

    P.S. There is a stage in our fetal development where both sexes are the same.
    Where this change takes place can be seen in men in the form of the Perineal Raphe.
    This picture contains material of a sexual nature. If easily offended do not
    click on the link.
    Source

    All is one!
    Last edited by Ghislain; 12-28-2009 at 08:01 AM.

  4. #24
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    (and so as to not have this used against me I call said behavior a "fluke" in nature because the majority of the creatures who's sexes are as ours, male and female, unite opposites and it is truly rare and odd for two of like kind to do so.)
    Not so rare or odd. Source.

  5. #25
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    Ghislain,

    you make some good points, ill grant you. I do have 1 male friend who is one of my best friends. But friendship in no way means any type of sexual union, if that were the case, then all the girls im friends with, well that would make me a male whore.

    You do site occurrences in nature, but 8-15% of total populations still would appear as "flukes" due to the overwhelming number (85-92%) that is hetro. Still, there is the matter of Art also. Ive never seen the "our sun with another sun = Stone."
    The reason Art is important in this, is as i mentioned beforehand, nature is fallen also.

    You do make a valid point also about the embryo state, in that regard (and though i still say, due to personal beliefs: "its choice") for discussion purposes, then it comes down to hormones and development, in which case, looking back at what you sited for the animals, there was a thing they found in the sheep (or rams) which, in essence, would be a mental 'fluke' (something to do with a thing in the brain being basically "out of sync" you could say, with the development). So could be a deformity in the embryonic processes effecting hormones and development to then be "out of whack" in the final product, thus resulting in the non-alchemical unions of "sun with sun and moon with moon", basically. Considering it is a minority that engage in such of same-unions, i still refer to as "flukes" just as i could show other "flukes" of development, from being blind, to deft, to conjoined twins. It isnt the normal way of development nor behavior, and still seeing no "fruits" from said unions, and certainly no use of them in alchemical contexts. (yes when dealing with animals i did mean "fruits" as in offspring, just as sun and moon birth the red chid. )

    Any thoughts on those points?

    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  6. #26
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    Are you telling me that sex is a clinical act we only partake in
    to produce offspring?

    Some people are trying very hard if that is the case.

    just as i could show other "flukes" of development, from being blind, to deft, to conjoined twins.
    To left handed, to ginger, to hazel eyes??? where do we draw the line and who has the yard stick for normality?

    If there is a creator he may be saying, "blast, that the 6th billionth I got wrong".

    But we can all say, "he got me right".

    Sex may be a way of showing a closeness, trust and a belonging that perhaps can
    not be shown in any other way. It is the ultimate giving one can show another.
    Who that other is, surely, is up to the concenting individuals.

    Ghislain

  7. #27
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    Thought for the day:

    "Are Narcissists gay"?

    Ghislain

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    Who has the yard stick for normality?
    "Normality" is this little human invention that looks like a narrow, tiny box. It has the ability to shrink even more with time. People wear it on their heads and they get this electric shock of fear every time they try to reach out - therefore they keep telling themselves that their little "normality" box is all there is and ever should be. And, of course, since they're the ones living in that box, they also have the yardstick for it, since they know its tiny measures so well

    Ooops, I think this was the first time I ever answered a rethorical question
    Last edited by Andro; 12-28-2009 at 12:59 PM.

  9. #29
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    It’s not about marriage of 2 sulphurs. It’s not about marriage of two males. Every creature in the universe has both salt and sulphur within themselves and do not need anyone outside him for alchemical marriage. Even the Sun!

    But for exploration and discovery of yourself before the alchemical marriage you DO need someone to reflect your own nature. That’s what homosexuality is about.

    It’s about discovering both masculine and feminine sides within oneself. And that’s what homosexuals do. They shift roles and poles in their relationship and experience both sides. They know how to be a man and a woman in one lifetime. The hemispheres of their brain are much more synchronized, because they use both of them at full power.

    Heterosexuals, on the other hand, experience only their own sex, because the opposite one they seek outside themselves. They get used to be what they are in their vulgar, unrefined nature. The hemispheres of their brain are not in sync. One of the hemispheres is dominant, while the second one is suppressed.

    An example is heterosexual couples: If a man can hammer a nail, why should the woman learn that? She wouldn’t. Or, if women always wash dirty nappies, why should the man learn that? He also wouldn’t. He will prefer to stick to his hammer and nail something down… That way one of the hemispheres atrophies and the brain cannot discover its own polarities within itself.

    Seth-Ra, you were talking about numbers and statistics and mentioned that nature is mostly heterosexual. Of course it is. That what makes Alchemy such a special and supreme art! Most of humanity and nature are busy with breeding, feeding and football, and cannot be an example of “how things work in alchemy”, exactly because they work in the vulgar way. Philosophers are so rare, because they think and feel DIFFERENT than the others. They are not copying nature in its vulgar state. There have no need for it, because they would only achieve the same as everyone else.

    A true philosopher will achieve the alchemical marriage only after discovery of both masculine and feminine natures within him and will manifest the Stone outside himself as a reflection of his perfectly combined inner nature.

  10. #30
    Nota bene that the newspeak word "homophobic" was invented and is used to criminalize the majority. Qui bono?

    U can also notice that there is only male-male true friendship.

    Have u ever notice any organisation, functioning at last a few years, which consist only of women?

    Study cybernetics, & u will know that system can be controlled only by 1 unit.

    IMO there is only 1 question whitch relates to this thread topic - how about woman alchemist, if the prima materia is really one of the materials mentioned on this forum?
    Last edited by horticult; 12-28-2009 at 05:43 PM.

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