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Thread: Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Alchemy

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    Nota bene that the newspeak word "homophobic" was invented and is used to criminalize the majority. Qui bono?
    I suggest you take note of all the hard work the "majority" has done all over history - and still does - to earn this word (which is actually pretty mild compared to what the "majority" has been calling us). Gays have been bullied, bashed, imprisoned, tortured, criminalized, killed, denied basic rights and considered mentally ill for so long, and you have the NERVE to say that the "majority" is now being criminalized for acting upon its fear-based hatred of something that is nothing more than simply different? This kind of warped logic truly baffles me...

    Would you like to propose a different word to describe the mental condition that has led the "majority" to perform all the aforementioned actions? I'm open to suggestions...

    This being said, I am personally very much against criminalizing ANYONE for their mere opinions and lifestyles. Name anything, and someone will dislike it. It's the way of things and the nature of diversity, which is to be celebrated. Homophobia is not a "bad" word. It simply means you fear or dislike homosexuals JUST because of their orientation. That's fine with me. The problem starts when you start to actively meddle and interfere in areas that are none of your business. I absolutely do not subscribe to criminalizing people for being homophobic, but I do subscribe to criminalizing people for actual crimes or one-sided destructive interference based on homophobia, censorship and denying of rights included (hate crimes, for that matter).

    For example:

    Let's theoretically say I believe that heterosexuals are genetically inferior, and their disgusting lifestyle is like a virus infesting and contaminating this planet for ages and ages, that only a small percentage of the population has somehow remained immune to this atrocious infection, not to mention that the hetero lifestyle is a personal insult to god (which of course I know because it says so in the only true book about god I've been reading in that special private school for the immune elite). It makes me sick to the bone when I see them flaunt their perverted hetero lifestyle every time I (unwillingly) have to walk through their breeder-infested neighbourhoods... And what I would (theoretically) find most annoying is that I truly believe it's their choice to remain infected with this hetero-virus, since there is a very simple cure - that is to start having same gender sex and be cured of their disease... And so on...

    Let's theoretically say that this is what I believe. I would see no problem with having that view/opinion.

    BUT if I was to theoretically go out and start bashing/torturing/imprisoning/CENSORING/hospitalizing those poor and genetically inferior heterosexuals just for living differently than me and without them having done any personal harm to me and not having tried to impose their (inferior) lifestyles on me - that would definitely count as criminal interventionism on my behalf.

    Get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    U can also notice that there is only male-male true friendship.
    I would love to hear your explanation/theory as for why this is the case... Really...

    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    Have u ever noticed any organisation, functioning at last a few years, which consist only of women?
    I have no interest in studying organizations, I am more interested in individuals, so I can't really answer that one...

    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    Study cybernetics, & u will know that system can be controlled only by 1 unit.
    I can't see how the above statement fits into the context of this thread, but please elaborate in case I'm missing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    How about woman alchemist, if the prima materia is really one of the materials mentioned on this forum?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

    I see no contradiction between women and alchemy, since all spirits have both male and female aspects/energies within them, regardless of the gender of the physical body they occupy.
    Last edited by Andro; 12-28-2009 at 09:51 PM.

  2. #32
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    Before i get to my point id just like to say that i dont care if people believe differently then me. I personally am hetro, and as ive stated before, my opinion is that of my Bible, backed up more so by what i see in nature and art. I certainly have not tried to attack anyone who is different, im simply asking a very simple question. At the end of the day it matters not to me, nor do i think those who are different then i, are "bad" people.

    Now to my question: All ive seen shown is example of the behavior being exhibited in animals also, which i knew, but again, a minority (and it is, of the overall populations of the species) could just as easily be brushed off as a defect, like many other things. If that is the case, so be it, they cant help it. My whole point is that i find no Alchemical union of the same. I do understand that as individuals, and on the mental level, we have the energies of both Sun and Moon, and we balance them. But it must also be seen on the physical level, that, as we all are one in this sense, then we each as an individual to the equation are but one of the two, you either are a guy, or a girl, and thus the physical is to be balanced, just as your minds are balanced.(1 guy plus 1 girl = 2 individuals, acting to become 1 in an alchemical union of opposites, the individuals are one in the equation once united.) Because your mind holds both Sun and Moon, Conscious and Subconscious, so then does 1 body hold male, and the other female, the 2 uniting as one. The salts (physical aspects) are chosen, just look down.
    Ive yet to see any alchemical text sources, or ancient artwork sources depicting an alchemical marriage of same, but rather, opposites, both in mind, and in body.

    If anyone is ready to start showing what ive asked for, well then by all means. Otherwise im about ready to call it quits on this thread cause all im hearing is speculation and dodging, or side-stepping to what ive asked. Tempers also seem to be running high, and since ive not "attacked" anyone, but do seem to be on the "opposition" side, i guess im getting tired of being "politically correct" and not receiving much more then conjecture and whining of centuries past, that we were not even around during. Because just for the record, homosexuals arent the only groups to ever be persecuted: Alchemy as a whole has been, as well as Christianity, pagan religions, Islam, and dont forget the Jews. Many of these persecutions go on still also, and since im sure all of us belong to some group that has been, and probably still is being persecuted on some front, perhaps we should rise above the victim mentality, and move ourselves forward.

    Anyway, unless im shown what ive asked to be shown, i think im going to just sit back and watch.
    Have fun.

    ~Seth-Ra
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  3. #33
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    Mr. Seth-Ra,

    I think I understand what you're seeking to find out from this discussion. Let's put everything else aside and focus on the Alchemical aspect, but you'll have to help me a little here...

    To start, please answer one simple question:

    In your view, is the Philosopher's Stone male or female? (I mean the physical Stone, not allegorical)

    Just a simple answer, please. Then we can move on with the discussion in a much more focused manner.
    Last edited by Andro; 12-29-2009 at 09:15 AM.

  4. #34
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    Gladly.

    Id have to say neither, and both. I viewed the Stone as the perfected embodiment of all chaos and order, Sun and Moon, the ability to initiate and control a change to the benefit or aiding of the situation in your favor.
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth-Ra View Post
    I'd have to say neither, and both. I viewed the Stone as the perfected embodiment of all chaos and order, Sun and Moon.
    I agree with the above. That's a start

    I would say "both" because it does indeed contain both male and female aspects, just as it embodies both Chaos and Order, as you've so well put it.

    I would also say "neither" because, athough there, the two polaric aspects are indistinguishable from eachother, perfectly married and homogenized (unlike the dualistic Yin/Yang symbol, where you can still see the distinct polarities).

    Would you call the Stone "androgynous" or "hermaphrodite"? Or any other name for that matter?

    Next questions:

    What about the Mercurial Alkahest, the one that makes the Stone and also multiplies it when married to it - do you view this Alkahest as male or female?

    Do you view the Stone as something that needs the opposite gender to multiply?

    I would appreciate simple answers, so as to not overcomplicate things...
    Last edited by Andro; 12-29-2009 at 10:25 AM.

  6. #36
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    I would call the Stone "balanced", as i do see it as genderless, though having the powers of all.

    Thats a good question about the Mercury. Ive always seen it as a neutral medium between the two opposites. Its role being to "break apart and bind them together". Thinking about it, one could say the Mercury would be a type of "liquified base state" of the Stone, having the breaking down and creating (binding/balancing) properties, and once having fuzed the opposites, and thereby creating a balanced earth who possesses living fire, once added back to mercury, dissolves into, and thereby "raising" it higher and making the "drink of the immortals" as it were.

    Ah but you did request "simple" answers, so id have to say i view it as a bridge, and thus able to connect with either, while being neither.

    Ah, i almost forgot; seeing as the Stone is "balanced", id say to add either "gender" would be toppling the balance, and thus for multiplication, it simply must be broken down, and revived time and time again, according to its nature. (like a phoenix, but with each "burn-out"/"breakdown", leaving behind a "level", or "stepping up a level" during the restructuring, due to the energies it requires to bring it back.)

    I also am glad to see that the common ground has been found. This was the very idea of what i had in mind, to discuss things thusly. (that was kinda a reply to what you said in the world currency thread. )
    Last edited by Seth-Ra; 12-29-2009 at 10:48 AM.
    One fatal tree there stands of knowledge called, forbidden them to taste. Knowledge forbidden? Suspicious. Reasonless. And why should their Lord envy them that? Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they stand by ignorance, is that their happy state, the proof of their obedience and their faith?

  7. #37
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    OK, cool...

    I personally see them not as genderless, but rather as both genders pefectly combined into one.
    You say the Stone is balanced. If it is (as you also say) genderless - then balance between what and what? Maybe it's genderFULL

    But let's stick to your view. You see the Stone as "genderless" and the Mercurial Alkahest as "neither".

    How/where exactly does this fit in with how the majority of nature behaves/operates? Can you show me examples of genderless majorities in nature?

    One more question:

    In your view, are metals and minerals male or female?
    Last edited by Andro; 12-29-2009 at 11:37 AM.

  8. #38
    Stone can not generate new life.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by horticult View Post
    Stone can not generate new life.
    And you know this because you've made The Stone, tried to generate new life and failed?

    Because if you haven't, your statement is pure speculation.

    By the way, what do you mean by "life"?
    Babies? Plants? Minerals? Solar systems? Galaxies?

  10. #40

    > Androgynus

    Pls read some adepts books, they mentioned this often.
    I would also recommend 2 u 2 start using words in their common sense, a lot of things will be suddenly much clearer.

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