The Philosopher's Matter

[Kiorionis]

In my mind, Agent & Patient sounds like just another way of saying Male & Female haha

If a Universal Stone is the goal, then shouldn't it have to eventually, at some point, move down through polarity? Or is it, in your opinion, immune to this 'Veil of Duality'?

haha or are these types of questions irrelevant?

[Merovee]

Andro, have you ever thought about which point of view the alchemists take in their works: the point of view of duality or that of the abolished duality? Couldn't a different point of view explain many things that seem strange to us in their works and allegories (like the seemingly arbitrary role reversal between Agent & Patient), what do you think?

[Andro]

Questions leading to Answers leading to more Questions, etc...

Which one is "male" and which one is "female"? The "Question"? The "Answer"? Or are they "taking turns"?

As long as we are driven by "Questions", we are limited by the "Answers" we do (or don't) receive, and therefore remain imprisoned in Causality.

We cannot "abolish" that which has no inherent existence (or meaning). We can, however, realize the no-thing-ness of things.

Primordial Awareness/Sub-Stance has no "Polarity" and doesn't do Q&A.

We don't need to "turn on" the Sun, only remove the clouds.

This would be a good start.


-------------------------------------------------

[Kibric]

In Alchemy, this doesn't go beyond*superficially*allegorical.

Nail on the head.
Philosophical male and female do not have genders.
There is one body with the illusion of duality or polarity, in that part is earth the other water but they are the same thing cohesivly at the same time. A hermafrodite philosophically.
A real world example of a philosophical hermafrodite is jelly or gum.

[black]

HI Kiorionis

Definitely seems to me that there are two things in the actual work. Azoth and Fire, or Fire and Vessel, or the White and Red. I'm open to them being one and the same thing.

The more accepted Path that is mostly written about is the one with the male/female, agent/patient, king/queen, etc.

This is where the work is carried out with our two parts (Our Two Great Champions).

The other method that is rarely written about is what we can call the Androgyn Path,this is where we only work with one material.

These two paths cause so much confusion to those studying Alchemy as they are the Short Path and
the Long Path.

[Andro]

Andro, have you ever thought about which point of view the alchemists take in their works: the point of view of duality or that of the abolished duality? Couldn't a different point of view explain many things that seem strange to us in their works and allegories (like the seemingly arbitrary role reversal between Agent & Patient), what do you think?

Both.

At the Source (within the incommensurable, non-dimensional "Mirror-Plane"), our Sub-Stance is one & non-dual.

However, when manifested and made to appear in the dualistic realm/s (preferably as close as possible to the Veil), its rendering is dual, i.e. two-fold.

It seems that the "paradox" of the Universal Alchemical Elixir, is that it is a non-dualistic embodiment within dualistic reality, i.e. the initially dual expression of our manifest matter becomes again inseparably united with itself, once again "one thing", only in the realm of duality.

Now, according to some texts (I'm not there yet), when "multiplied" to the limit, the Alchemical Elixir will "disappear" from this plane of reality, i.e. "return" to it's primordial dwelling.

---------------------------------------------------

[Merovee]

Exactly, both of them, that's what I think too.

I know what I said sounds a bit like a smart-ass, but maybe it's not so unimportant after all if you want to understand their writings properly.

It's been a while, but I remember, I just wanted to point out that the adepts possibly take a standpoint in which agent and patient are the same; when they say something, it can also mean the opposite. That is why they say it’s a water and it’s a fire or it’s a stone, and it’s not a stone etc. Therefore, the past one can also be the future one, and the future one the past one.

Examples to your last thought:
Cyliani: ... (the materia) becomes so subtle that at the last time... it has completely evaporated. Usually, one stops at the ninth time, then the matter is so volatile that it penetrates the glass at the slightest heat (The Unveiled Hermes, multiplication);

French manuscript, (17th century): ... provided you do not go further than the ninth multiplication, otherwise matter - now only pure fire - would fly away. (Key to the 12 Keys of Basil Valentinus, Eleventh Key);

It was a very well Buddhist brother who pointed this out to me: Absolute perfection, he said, means transcendence; should the stone actually reach this, you will no longer be able to perceive it.