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Thread: Cyliani

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    I am aware of alternative interpretations, but imo non-duality comes before duality chronologically.

    See biblical Genesis and almost all the other myths on the creation of earth/the universe.
    The whole concept of non-duality and duality is far more philosophical than what it appears to be on the surface.

    There is no chronology.

    Duality cannot suddenly manifest out of non-duality, unless it was potentially already always there in non-duality. Thus the two concepts always existed together, not chronologically.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwellings View Post
    If you understand what I said and then read the texts, you will find that it applies to all. It isn't a hypothesis.

    There can be only one or two exceptions.
    Are you saying you read them all? The german and french ones too?

    Maybe I really did not understand you. Perhaps you could re-phrase your claim, please?
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:22 PM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post
    The whole concept of non-duality and duality is far more philosophical than what it appears to be on the surface.

    There is no chronology.

    Duality cannot suddenly manifest out of non-duality, unless it was potentially already always there in non-duality. Thus the two concepts always existed together, not chronologically.
    I don't question your view.

    However, when working in the lab, there is a starting point where you begin your work. Then there is a time when things start to happen in your vessel(s). There is a chronological order of colors, regiments, rotations (depending on the path and nomenclature). One can also assume that you end the work when you got the stone.

    To make it short, the practical work (which is necessarily done by us here on this world), certainly follows a chronological order, like the creation myths that the alchemists advice us to follow.

    There might be things that seem to be very obscure at first, that are intended to be taken more literally and the other way round. This also is witten in a lot of books.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    I don't question your view.

    However, when working in the lab, there is a starting point where you begin your work. Then there is a time when things start to happen in your vessel(s). There is a chronological order of colors, regiments, rotations (depending on the path and nomenclature). One can also assume that you end the work when you got the stone.

    To make it short, the practical work (which is necessarily done by us here on this world), certainly follows a chronological order, like the creation myths that the alchemists advice us to follow.

    There might be things that seem to be very obscure at first, that are intended to be taken more literally and the other way round. This also is witten in a lot of books.
    OK, I guess your analogy didn't quite work out. What I tried to say earlier is that yes, there is a starting point in the lab where you begin the work. And there is a chronology that follows. However, many texts do not start at the beginning of the lab work. They often start at a certain common point in the process where significant preliminary work has already been carried out. By making that their starting point, they have deliberately confused what they mean by "matter", such as the phrase "one matter, one vessel, one fire".

  5. #185
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    I've noticed that some alchemists here have a sort of "negative bias" against the term "Spiritus Mundi". I have to admit it does sound a bit archaic, but it's just a name...

    What I am truly wondering, is how (or IF) we can reconcile this "Spiritus Mundi" nomenclature with the "Astral Spirit" (or "Ardent Spirit" or "Vinegar of the Mountains") in the texts of Cyliani as well as ICH and Recreations? (AKA "Undetermined Tears of Diana" as per Urbigerus, who also claims that "Spiritus Mundi" is completely unnecessary for the work, AKA "Astral Gold" as per St. Didier, etc...)

    Also, for the empirical skeptics, how would you reconcile your perspective with Cyliani's description: "a magnetic salt that serves as a covering for a strange energy, universal life"?

    Also for the more materialistically inclined empiricists, how do you reconcile your views with Cyliani's rather "mystical" description of the double death sequence of Man (the body dies first, then the soul dissipates, and ultimately only the Spirit remains and "returns to universality")?

    But on the other hand, Recreations is adamant about people failing - even if they DO know the "right" substance(s) - because "they work on dead matter". What is it then, that makes a matter "alive"?

    Actually, the last one is the actual Front & Bottom Line of this post, so I'll say it again:

    What is it that makes matter ALIVE?

    --------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Andro; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:04 PM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Also, for the empirical skeptics, how would you reconcile your perspective with Cyliani's description: "a magnetic salt that serves as a covering for a strange energy, universal life"?
    That's what I meant before, when I said that the magnet is obviously obtained after getting the "Monarch of Midnight". Further, there are often described different kinds of mercury in different states of matter and depending what you do with it also are called sulfur, or salt

    Cyliani also mentions "The Dew of May" as an "indispensable vehicle and principle of all things". Could this be a "chemical" support for the exclusively materialistic perspective? After all, Cyliani explicitly writes that his knowledge of chemistry was of help to him...
    The Dew of May was a common deckname for the secret solvent. A knowledge of chemistry is useful to recognize when something unusual happens. For example, some of the stuff the ORMUS(?) guys do, for example mixing some lime with sea salt and water to get a precipitate, is not unusual. It is my conviction that alchemy lets you observe something unusual. How can one recognize it if you don't know what's common?
    The Nitrogen of the air, for certain, is indeed the Nitrogen of the philosophers.
    Gerbant here would actually support the infamous nitric acid claim by von Bernius.
    However, Nitrates have relatively low melting points. Obviously a quality that is desired, if guys like Roger Guasco are to be believed.

    A similar claim is posed by the author of the "Clefs des 12 clefs" (I might have mentioned it once or twice). There he says the air component we are after is oxygen.

    In the 19th century, the discoveries of Lavoisier still were not long ago and it could also be possible that all those people who said it's nitrogen, or oxygen just wanted to name somehting that for them was obviously hidden in the air. So some alchemists might have thought: "That's it, they finally officially found something in the air and called it nitrogen/oxygen." Later it turned out that it wasn't the real deal. That's just a hypothesis.


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    Last edited by Andro; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:21 PM. Reason: BB code fix.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Gerbant here would actually support the infamous nitric acid claim by von Bernius.
    Von Bernus, who never made the stone - but was desperately seeking financial support from German (or Swiss?) corporations to fund him and the building of his lab... LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    So some alchemists might have thought: "That's it, they finally officially found something in the air and called it nitrogen/oxygen." Later it turned out that it wasn't the real deal.
    And according to the latest from Uncle Scrooge, it's Hydrogen!
    ______________________________

    Like I said before, FIRE is all there is.

    Everything else (math, chemistry, mysticism, language, history, etc.) is all just mind-fuck (all the stories and myths we tell ourselves).

    No matter what other names we call it, it's still mind-fuck

    Now we can all allegorically blame Prometheus for ending our collective blissful ignorance

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Andro; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:48 PM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf View Post
    The whole concept of non-duality and duality is far more philosophical than what it appears to be on the surface.

    There is no chronology.

    Duality cannot suddenly manifest out of non-duality, unless it was potentially already always there in non-duality. Thus the two concepts always existed together, not chronologically.
    To me, this suggests a duality that consists of non-duality on the one hand, and duality on the other hand.

    Which actually exist in unity with one another.

    An interesting conundrum indeed.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    To me, this suggests a duality that consists of non-duality on the one hand, and duality on the other hand.
    YES!

    I call it: "The Seemingly Paradoxical Duality Between Duality And Non-Duality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    An interesting conundrum indeed.
    Yay! More mind-fuck!

    What TRULY interests me, is what lies BETWEEN duality and non-duality

  10. #190
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    What I am truly wondering, is how (or IF) we can reconcile this "Spiritus Mundi" nomenclature with the "Astral Spirit" (or "Ardent Spirit" or "Vinegar of the Mountains") in the texts of Cyliani as well as ICH and Recreations? (AKA "Undetermined Tears of Diana" as per Urbigerus, who also claims that "Spiritus Mundi" is completely unnecessary for the work, AKA "Astral Gold" as per St. Didier, etc...)

    Also, for the empirical skeptics, how would you reconcile your perspective with Cyliani's description: "a magnetic salt that serves as a covering for a strange energy, universal life"?
    The confusion is spiritus mundi is a relatively new term ?. Vinegar of the mountains is code for the dripping oily water that runs through caves.
    Undetermined Tears of Diana is code for materia pingus fatty clear water, same as above.
    Astral gold and magnetic salt refer to purified air salts. If you leave a glass of water to evaporate, a thin film of salt marks the glass afterwards.
    Water and earth attract each other.

    Recreations is adamant about people failing - even if they DO know the "right" substance(s) - because "they work on dead matter". What is it then, that makes a matter "alive"?
    Yes because once the mercury is drawn from the matter, the matter is ineffective in the operation. Its just the preparation.
    Mercury is what's needed. Its transformation from oil to gumm then stone ( black stage ). Its living because our mercury lives in heat.
    A living water is water that's moving not still. In mercury's case its heat moving it. Its nature is fire, born in fire through its extraction from the matter.
    The dead matter no longer any use, all of its juice ( mercury ) extracted through fire.

    Though some philosophers assure us that it is harder to find the matter, than to prepare it; I tell you in truth, sir, that it is a great deal more difficult for the Sons of Art, to prepare the matter, than to find it; for it is in these operations that the magistery of the science consists. You may learn from the same author, who nevertheless, in other places affirms the contrary to that truth which I propose to you inasmuch as he afterwards affirms that Sulphur being discovered, the stone will be ready at hand. But what is the process of that solution, if I leave you to guess at it, you will assuredly ponder about it a long while without being able to discover it, for all the philosophers in general have professed that they conceal it. And your Aristeus hides it no less diligently than others.

    37 It is the golden Key to know how to open
    the Doors and draw Air from Air.
    38 For it being not known how Air is fished
    It is impossible it should be gotten.
    That which cures particular and universal diseases etc.

    He takes great care not to discover the way of opening these gates, and to make the Air of the philosophers, and to draw Air from Air, without which nevertheless it is impossible to succeed in alchemy. He contents himself only to recommend a second time to learn this great Art well.

    31 Learn therefore, my son, to catch Air
    Learn to keep the golden Key of Nature.

    I do not think, Sir, that you believed that Aristeus had sincerely revealed the secret of the wisemen in the process which he has described afterwards. You have too great a light not to perceive that he only speaks allegorically when he advises to get the Air condensed round a vessel by means of snow or ice; to fill with it as many vessels as one would, to put it into a Philosophical Egg; to seal it hermetically, and to make it pass all the regimens.

    You very well know that from all this no good can be made; but I also do not know whether you penetrate into the mystery contained in this allegory; and whether you would understand what this snow, this ice, this condensed Air, this bird which catches the bird, do signify; I can at least assure you that these terms do signify a quite different thing from what they seem to signify. Aristeus himself lets you know that these terms contain a great mystery; for he says

    32 Creatures may know the Air,
    But to catch Air, is the Key of Nature.

    It would in effect be a very easy thing, if there were nothing else, but to condense the Air by the means of snow or ice, even in the rays of the Sun at full noonday, during the greatest heats, it is because of that, that the philosopher at the same time adds with a great deal of reason.

    33 This is a secret and more than humane
    To take the heavenly Secret from the Air.

    It is a secret truly which exceeds the ordinary capacity of the mind of man: yet Aristeus makes one make a reflection upon it; on which the whole secret of the great Work does depend if he does not discover himself better than the other philosophers yet he says enough to put the sons of Art off from all imaginations, and to let the adepts know that he, as they do who possesses this great treasure.

    35 A fish is caught by a Fish, and a Bird by a Bird.
    The Air is also caught by a sweet Air.

    Mind these words well, they contain all the secrets of the philosophers, which Cosmopolita discovers to us under the name of the philosophic magnet, forasmuch as he says, the air generates the magnet, but the magnet generates or makes the Air appear; there, says he, is the Water of our dew, wherefrom the saltpetre of the philosophers is drawn, which nourishes and makes all things grow; we must come then concerning this [thing] to the principle which I am going to establish to seek this admirable magnet, this Air which catches Air, and not to far that the matter of the philosophers mounts first from the earth to heaven, afterwards it re-descends from heaven to earth and so receives the force of the superior and inferior things, that which is below is as that which is on high, and that which is on high is as that which is below. This is the infallible oracle of the truth telling Hermes.

    You see thereby, Sir, how far they are off from the principles of the great Work; when they apply themselves to seek only one simple essence universal and generally common to all beings, in hopes to be able of itself to specify and identify it to the metallic nature. Such a [sort] of essence cannot be found in Nature. It is not also less impossible to frame [the likeness of] it to oneself than it is to understand the first matter of Aristotle, or a substance without form, proper to receive all forms; for even from the time that you shall have been able to apprehend this universal matter; and that you consequently have given it a form; it will cease to be universal, and so it will become unprofitable to your design. One must then follow the advice of the philosophers, to let alone the matter which is afar off and to take in the first place the matter which is nigh, to purify it by corruption, to draw thence the soul and the essence by fire, afterwards the soul of the soul, and by this means the Air of the Air and the Quintessence, in which the virtue and the energy of the Stone resides. Note that well.
    http://www.levity.com/alchemy/letphil.html


    What is it that makes matter ALIVE?
    Movement. Life moves the dead don't. Heat fire are movement in atoms, nearly all living beings generate heat and are moved on the cellular level by it.
    Last edited by Kibric; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:21 PM.

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