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Thread: A Modern Sexual Alchemy

  1. #1
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    A Modern Sexual Alchemy

    How does one eat an elephant? One byte at a time.

    I can't even define my terms in one post much less describe tantric alchemy so I will post some nibbles, bytes and words about the matter. If I can inspire some understanding that's good, if not, oh well.

    I notice that there are some carry over posts from a previous form of the forum on the sex and alchemy topic. Sex is the most fearful topic that might be talked about here. It is certainly the most widely taboo in so many societies throughout the world. When I was about 8 or 9, and saw the sexual things I would be doing later in life, my opinion was the same as most kids of that age, YUCK! None of us are children so the view is different. I care not the least about cultural taboos. So I will speak about the nitty gritty facts here as best as I can put them into words, which may not suffice. I can't claim to be orthodox anything. I know what I know and I didn't learn it in this lifetime or from books. So any tantric practice I speak of is what I know and have known literally all my life and may have also read about. I am heterosexual and have no experience, knowledge or opinion about other aspects of sexual orientation on alchemy. I also, having spent most of this life as a systems analyst, tend to bring together all sorts of things from diverse areas and see how they fit together. As EJ Gold says "The secret keeps itself".

    To keep things in perspective sex is used as part of a set of tools in tantra but tantra, in itself is a whole lot more than sex. It encompasses an entire alchemical system which includes the healing arts and arts in general, which because of the level of understanding of the world at the time when tantra got started, we are talking magik. One meaning of Tantra is "weaving", as in the tapistry of life. Another meaning of "Tantra" is that of a divine dialog on certain subjects. Between two alchemists it might be a channeled divine dialog usually portrayed as being between Shiva and Shakti on the topic of spitual matters and/or sex..

    Any sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic - Clarke's Law
    Any sufficiently advanced magic looks like technology - Niven's reply

    So we look at part of a reasonably complete tantric ritual. Tim Leary knew of what he spoke in stating the importance of set and setting. So in setting the mood, lighting is adjusted, incense and aroma oils may be heated or burned, physical cleansing rituals such as bathing and shaving may be performed. Then there is the tantric meal. In a vegetarian society one form of such a meal is one containing at least beef, fish and a whole grain dish, considered the aphrodisiac. Those of you who have not been lifelong vegetarians can't begin to know the effect such a meal can have on such a person. The traditional answer to why it has that effect is that overcoming taboo is liberating and generates power and energy. A modern answer however can explain the sometimes amazingly profound effect, NUTRITION. Specifically both natural immediately active forms of b12; adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin. In addition omega3 fishoils, the l-carnitine in the beef, and the b-vitamins contained in all items all contribute to what can be an amazing experience. About 1/2 of meat eaters are deficient enough in these b12s or cofactors to be affected by supplement pills of the right brands (only 2 of 10 brands tested work well) and types, taken the right way. This effect can literally floor a person as their mitochondria in body and brain all start putting out energy at full speed, the brain increases speed of transmission and signal strength increases. Also, every aspect of sexuality is enhanced from erectile tissues to possiblity and strength of orgasms and fertility itself. This combo is quite neuroactive. The brain wakes up. If this is being experienced in the set and setting of spiritual sexual experince it really brings a lot of bang to it. Daily use will heal potentially hundreds of symptoms for which there is no effective treatment.

    Now for a few secondary considerations.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC425091/

    Normal seminal unsaturated cobalamin-binding capacity averaged 15,030 +/- 7,290 pg/ml, of which 11,550 +/- 6,660 pg/ml was transcobalamin II. Transcobalamin II levels were markedly diminished in subjects lacking seminal vesicles (1520-1660 pg/ml), but not after vasectomy. This suggests that seminal vesicles are the chief source of this protein in semen. R binder concentration was increased in postvasectomy subjects (9,970 +/- 4,900 pg/ml vs. 2,980 +/- 1,370 pg/ml in normals) and varied in other patients. The endogenous cobalamin content of semen was only 88-699 pg/ml, and was carried largely by R binder rather than by transcobalamin II. The function of the unusually large seminal transcobalamin II pool in reproduction is unknown, but seems unlikely to be related solely to cobalamin transport needs, at least within the male reproductive tract itself.

    The above quote of an abstract shows that the capacity of semen to carry b12 is huge but largely unfilled. Perhaps in the man whose system is saturated with b12 will put forth tremendously more b12 in semen. There is speculation of what all that binding cpacity is about, potentially allowing 100 to 1000 times as much b12 as occurs in a normal chronically deficienct population. Other studies have shown that vaginal absorbtion of testosterone takes place. B12 is absorbed very well by the oral mucosa, why not vaginal? It has been throrized that the relief from depression seen in partners of men who don't wear condoms occurs because of the testosterone absorbed vaginally. However, that takes a while to work. Active b12 absorbed mucosally can start affecting depression in 5-10 minutes as easily demonstrated sublingually.

    As the b12 is not so much in the sperm itself, but the fluid the natural question to ask is whether the female orgasmic fluids (the "3 medicines" in Taoist alchemy) generated by comparable tissues as in the male, also contains b12. The presence of even these small amounts of b12 might make a noticable difference. The b12 might be the cause of the attributed "great energy", rather than or in addition to "imprinted energy" or just the shared energy of being deeply interpenetrated energetically with another person for some hours, of these fluids that are consumed in some alchemical rituals and of course in various forms of oral sex, done ritually or not. Again, in days of old when oral sex was most forbidden, breaking taboos is talked about as the source of energy. Today it is the norm and not taboo (in USA) and still big energy.

    Then there is the tantric massage. This too is part of cleansing. In a tantric massage, one of the things that most people don't do in the course of ordinary sex is the massage of the underlying muscles and structures rather than stimulating the skin on the surface. One finds the "grains of rice" triggers that need to be released that most massage therapists will go nowhere near. In giving this kind of yoni (vulva) massage, or even a back massage (trauma triggers can be stored in all parts of the body), I have seen all sorts of trauma brought to the surface, relived and released. I have experienced, with ladies, childhood rape, kidnap and imprisonment in a large toolbox, rape and murder (past life), getting run through with a sword (past life, more than one), Nazi concentration camps and a variety of other unpleasant things, and seen them liberated from these things. In receiving such a massage I have suddenly remembered and released traumas of my own life. It's nothing one can plan, but just allows. Sometimes it just happens when things go right. Is massage work a part of tantric healing? YES! The important part is to be in a "erotic trance" rapport with the person.

    A most excellent book and a totally free on line or download.
    Indecent Practices and Erotic Trance: - Making Sense of Tantra
    by John Ryan Haule
    http://www.jrhaule.net/ipet.html

    I'll leave it there for now.
    Last edited by III; 10-12-2010 at 06:03 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
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    So what is alchemy?

    There are those who have wondered about how sex could have a role in alchemy. Personally, I don't get the external lab work and why and how that might allow one to grow and evolve, be transformed to a higher state. In tantric alchemy our bodies are our laboratories. Biochemical transformations happen within our bodies. We build "energy structures" by ourselves and with others and are transformed as we do so. As we progress we can open more and more complicated gates and gain the experience and knowlege behind them.

    So in general terms how would I describe an alchemy? Using the macrodimensional labrynth and chamber terminolgy of EJ Gold I would say that it has a number of characteristics. Consider the labrynth to be a multidimension axis system. Instead of having x,y pairs as in a 2 dimensional system, or x,y,z in a 3 dimensional system, picture perhaps a 16 dimensional system so that each chamber has 16 coordinates. Each person has their "body of habits", sort of a holographic fractal that defines the persons characteristics. This is what we are working on changing. We do that by adding more territory to our ranges, clear out the impurities that are thereby revealed, change our "programming", and do a "save" to our self definition. As we purify and expand our being we climb the ladder to larger, purer, more enlightened being states. One of the practical effects is to expand the range of our potential lives. One starts remembering and becomes aware of recurrance, of recurring in variations of the same life over and over again. The variation of life we enter each time is that which will rub off our rough spots, challange our limitations, offer us growth opportunities. It becomes a conscious GROUNDHOG DAY instead of the unconscious GROUNDHOG DAY. As EJ says, right now everybody has eternal life in the worst posible way, the eternal life of involuntary recurrance in a limited life, over and over without memory.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
    Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times. The concept initially inherent in Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into disuse, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected it.
    In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical.

    All of this is done over and over, refinement via successive approximations. I don't agree with exactly how wikepedia is describing aspects of recurrance but it will do as an approximation. It clearly isn't a new idea and goes back at least to Egyptian alchemy. It becomes much easier to see how all the mechanisms work if one posits a non-dualist "Matrix" type virtual environment rather than an actual physical world. Recurring a million times or a billion times or more in all the possible variations of a life is easier to see how it happens if it is all in a virtual software holodeck and doesn't have to account for how it could happen in a physical environment.

    Here is the problem, one can only go to (jaunt, borrowed from THE STARS MY DESTINATION - Alfred Bestor) the chambers one has been too already, reinforcing those but excluding all the others. Now it is possible for one person to take another to the chambers they know. It doesn't help that we each have blocked off most of our possible chambers by fears and avoidances so the initial work is to reattach to all of our blocked off aspects of self, to KNOW THY SELF, via refinement and purification as it might be called. This ability to take another to specific chambers (spaces) is one of the requirements for claiming something new, and 4 other "rules", as specified in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. So as one works closely with another person and becomes close coupled though sharing of all those energies and voyaging to all those other chambers your partner can enter but you can't, they become your own. After a while one has removed all the rough spots demonstrated by going into those chambers and in a very highly energetic "fusion" (I don't know what else to call it) an Alchemical union can occur. It is as if the amount of the labrynth that one can access is raised to the power of the other person's range creating a much larger span of possible "worlds" for both persons. This is symbolized in the alchemical union of Shiva and Shakti.

    As the person makes more and more passes through their life certain things happen. As the person is changed by each pass, the output of one pass becomes input for the next, it takes on fractal chracteristics which is also described as holographic. Each part contains the whole, and as this is not a physical system there is no loss of resolution as one goes up and down in scale. The difference that makes it fractal is that the way the life affects one changes slightly each time because the experience of it is modified by the previous pass. When one can see the nature of the change each time and become aware of the change of the change of the change ad infintum, one has "solved" that specific axis and moves on to the next. Consciousness of the process changes the process and makes it easier to cooperate with it.

    I know I haven't done a very good job at describing this and others do so in much more detail in lots of books. However, pragmatically speaking it does work. I had many built in assumptions of duality that caused me all sorts of problems despite having accepted non-dual intellectually. This all seems quite built in to the COS (Cosmic Operating System as a convienient shorthand) and so is available as one of those "shared subconscious archetypes" Jung spoke of.

    The key to it all is learning to pay attention to things normally ignored so automatically and thoroughly it isn't even perceived.

    In recurrance then, precognition is merely remembering things from other passes through this life that are similar enough to ring the bell. Intuition becomes a less clear memory of the past. Consider Phil in Groundhog Day. He learns that day and himself in all the many variations very deeply. So dreaming of driving off a cliff because of going too fast and the next day finding ones self in a car approaching that cliff and recognizing it allows one to slow down and live this time. Maybe it takes going off the cliff 500 times until the memory clicks in time and the choice is immediately made to change how one is driving is needed. When one consciously remembers and realizes what these experiences are, the rate of change picks up.

    The only thing we can actually change is ourself. Our whole experience follows from that. We change ourselves and our perceived world changes. When one makes a real change in this way the effects occur immediately. Aiming for specific outcomes distorts the results and results in ego disasters. Changing self towards the divine works out better.

    In this system it is easy to get started and get results. The main problem is that most folks just don't want to see themselves in divine clarity. It destroys their mythology, their dreams and their wants, their fears and their nightmares.

    The commonest objection to adding new territory is that "But that isn't me" objection when a new understanding or choice pops up. If changes are not accepted they are lost and have to happen over and over until they take.

  3. #3
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    What I say here is nobody's orthodoxy. Anybody else writing from their own experience and understanding will use their words their way. The challange is to be able to map meaning across such gaps and make them meaningful to one's self and others.

    I would say that there are multiple stages to this process. So, you wake up dead one day. Denial does no good. As has been described in all sorts of fiction and nonfiction suddenly one finds oneself being bathed in high intensity light and observed by some perceivable consciousness; the infamous "life review" or whatever you want to call it. The divine light brings illumination. The automatic tendency is to deny the things about one's self that are being seen. These things are often so painful to see a person dives back into life, an involuntary rebirth yet again, to get away from it and if remembered in an NDE then it is often as "I still have work to do" or "it wasn't my time yet as I am not done" or lots of other similar variations or even "They kicked me out".

    So in order to get anywhere one has to be able to face illumination without objection. That usually takes a lot of work and purification. This isn't about size or shape or any of those considerations. It's just that when the truth is seen, we are not what we think we should be and the automatic response is to deny and run. These things take a long time to build up protecting us from the TRUTH about ourselves. I don't know that it really matters what form the purification takes. There are lots of methods used through the ages. Whatever it takes for one to accept the truth of divine illumination concerning our self is what is needed. What does it take to clear fears and traumas? A work group is often useful at this point. If this is done in a mutual admiration society nobody gets anywhere. No matter how it is performed it requires us to examine our foundations and clean ourselves up. Tantric practice works well in this.

    The basic meditation practice in yoga describes the mind as pond. When it is totally stilled it becomes the mirror of truth in which we see ourselves. It is described that first one sees the boulders falling in and making great waves, then when those are cleared a smaller size. This goes all the way down to fine sand that makes the tiniest of ripples before finally being cleared. However it is done one must be able to find and release the triggers that disturb the mind with unconscious reactions. The purpose is to wake up and start being conscious instead of being thrown into unconscious reaction patterns often laid down as a child when anything that goes counter to our beliefs about ourself is threatening to be revealed. Once a person has awakened and isn't thrown back into sleep by every little thing then the next stage of work can begin. Tantric sex can work as a focusing and awakening mechanism as can other things. Just try to remain focused without a break in focus for a few minutes much less a few hours. It is deceptively difficult. In Tantric practice, breaks in attention make entering "erotic trance" most difficult. It's might be more difficult to maintain a prayerful focus on the "lower gate of heaven" (yoni) or lingam ("wand of light") for an hour than you might think, for all participants. The OneTaste (slow sex) folks limit their "orgasmic meditation" sessions, at least for beginners, to 20 minutes.

    As energies are shared, as two people's triggers and blocks are not in the exactly same area, the energies flowing hit the blockage/trigger and trigger a reaction which then makes the blockage/trigger available for observation and removal. As these are removed we recover memories and cutoff parts of our self. From time to time we have to be "reborn" with a differnt setup as too many things accumulate. Our basis is different each time. After enough of ourselves are reclaimed we will be able to see the non-dominant half of ourself and join the two parts in alchemical marriage. Now this is just my description. Others may describe it differently. At this point that "One" being can be encapsulated, an object, a "base class" that is the basis of what occurs next and we proceed to use that as a building block building a larger fractal starting with this "One" as a seed. There are multiple ways to do this sort of like oragami starts with a sheet of paper and ends up with many different architectures. Different sequences come out with different results. At some point that sequence ends and you end up with another larger more complex "One" which again becomes the base class, the seed of the next level of fractal. This sequence is repeated with systematic changes over and over producing a sort of crystaline fractal that is the definintion of self. At the completetion of each sequence or sequence of sequences another one starts. As we start out really quite tiny in the scheme of things such growth of being can go on for a very considerable period.

    And this is a good demonstration of how we see things based on our archetype variations. For instance, at the end of each sequence (cycle) I see the "shape" I have become and a "substance". There was a sequence of shapes. They appear to be made of the same "material" for the entire sequence. Then when that larger sequence is completed the shapes start over at the beginning but the next time they are a "denser" "material" which means "larger" in certain ways. So perhaps they start at "paper", then cardboard, then wood, then colors, then maybe a progression of metals, then jewels, then optic fiber or whatever. It's as if each time through it gets larger/denser, or has a greater information capacity or something. So one has a sequence of "materials" each of which contains a sequence of shapes, each of which contains a sequence of steps. The terms "notes" and "octaves" are often applied. Each time an octave is made, that becomes the new "step" size for the next larger octave. I see it in terms that make sense to me in conveying a greater carrying capacity of energy and/or information (material) and complcation/dimensionality (shape). Somebody else might see exactly the same information in a somewhat different way. "Gold" and "silver" and others seems to carry across lots of different ways of seeing it. But the form and context varies. I have seen alchemical sequences that are numbered, alphabets including ancient ones, symbols that are mysterious, at least to me which could also be ancient alphabets or ideograms or icons or whatever and I didn't have the context to interpret them. Sometimes things just don't translate to one's own context well. This makes comparing notes with other alchemists difficult. It seems to be an important aspect of teaching an apprentice is to establish a common vocabulary via books and shared and discussed experiences so when one asks "You know what I mean" and the other person doesn't look at you blankly but instead can say "yes" and be correct.

    An alchemical sequence, once it is worked out appears to reside in the COS (Cosmic Operating System) DLLs otherwise known as the "shared subconcious archetypes" and is available to anybody who looks. As Patanjali made quite clear in declaring the 5 rules for claiming something new is that there are no secret places and that another skilled in the art has to be able to travel there with you and it must be teachable. "Pretend" places can be secret, places nobody else can go and can never go and that are not teachable. That doesn't mean that all real locations are easy. It only takes one perhaps very skilled fellow traveler to confirm existance of a new place.

    Much of the problem comes down to comunicating. Two alchemist may be doing exactly the same thing and yet not understand each other in the least. It's difficult enough when all are trying to communicate as clearly as possible. When language becomes too deep in symbolism, intentional obfuscation, euphemisms and jargon it gets outright messy. So if somebody says "Get your euphemism in here right euphemism now and climb on my euphemism and euphemism the euphemism until my euphemism euphemisms" who knows what is actually being said. Have you read THE SACRED MUSHRROM AND THE CROSS by John Allegro. He is a linguist and points out that becasue aramaic has no vowels that the new testement can be read as a manual for use of sacred mushrooms, the Jesus Christ mushrooms of course. In the intoduction he cautions about taking the book too seriously but that it can be read that way because of the ambiguity in the language. It's a fascinating book.

  4. #4
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    Sorry I don't have much to add.
    Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading it.
    And I second your view on THE SACRED MUSHROOM AND THE CROSS by John Allegro.

  5. #5
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    Consider the difference between "immortal" life and "eternal" life. "Immortal" is not what the alchemist gets. "Immortal", literally without death, is not something we even can have as far as I know. There is no evidence for that as being an option. "Eternal" life is something achievable, in which one continues consciously. Recurrance fits right into that. Consider Groundhog Day. One of the things an alchemist can do is learn to dodge all those things that would normally kill one off, one way or another. We live a multitude of variations, learning to overcome or avoid all the death situations allowing one to reach the full extent of that life. And in doing that were are also changing ourselves. One might have a billion or one hundred billion years or more of experience in all the variations of a lifetime. It completely removes the intellectual objection that there are not enough lifetimes of human experience if lived purely sequentitally for more than a million or so years of human experience. As there is only one cosmic instant and all time takes place simultaniously, this ability to recurr within the same life in endless variations is the key to building the huge experience needed for evolution. Those who throw out the whole "wheel of life" ideas of millions and millions of reincarnations because there are not enough possible lives for that to occur just are not thinking in terms of reincarnating over and over in the same lifetime.

    RECURRANCE EXPERIENCES in action -

    My wife and I had just moved into an apartment in SLC. Our furniture was in storage in another city. We were exercising in the livingroom with nothing but a stereo in it. We were playing YES "Close to the Edge". Half way through the track there was a knock on the door. We both got up off the floor and walked over and opened the door. There were two men unknown to me standing there. One of them raised an automatic pistol and shot me in the head. My wife saw that and saw me go down before her memory goes black. The next thing ei ther of us knows is that were on the floor regaining consciousness and CLOSE TO THE EDGE was starting over. The immediate words out of my wifes mouth were "Don't open the door". We then discussed the experience which we both remembered.

    Eight months later I was skiing at Alta. I crossed by tips on an icy traverse and fell all the way down Sunspot, a west facing high bowl. It was a spectacular fall and I was doing doing end over end flips in the air only touching slightly as I rolled down the slope at high speed. My hat, sunglasses, gloves and poles were left all over the slope. I landed on my back head down just as I reached the rocks. Suddenly everything went black but I was still conscious. There were two presences asking me if this was a suicide attempt of any kind or would I be willing to go back to the same life. I said "Not suicide" and "I'll be glad to go back to the same life". One presence asked "where should we put him down?". The other one said "How about here". At that I found myself flying along 6 inches off the snow at about 40mph and came in for a gentle sliding landing at right angle to a couple of hundred yards and 200 feet of vertical, away from the rocks. A dozen people watched me tumble down the slope. They all looked away as I was about to hit the rocks. I went in for a hot chocolate to contemplate how I could possibly still be alive. This was the second time in 8 months. "Not a dent in the fender, not a scratch on the paint" to quote Phil the Weatherman in Groundhog Day. Since then I have had many many such experiences. I don't believe in miracles, espcially not in the same kind over and over. If it happens repeatedly it's not a system exception, it's normal system functioning. Since then I have spoken to hundreds of people who with a little prodding remember similar "too strange to think about" occurances. These can be full blown death experiences or just "discontinuities". For instance two people park the car. The go to get it where they both remember it. It isn't there. Hours of searching later they find the car a mile down the beach, or a different level of the parking garage or a different parking garage or a different parking lot at the airport. If it is just one person they figure they must have misremembered it. With two, such as with my wife, notes can be compared.

    My two daughters were in the car with grandparants. The driver doesn't see the light change, goes through the red. They get hit. Suddenly they come to and find themselves stopped back at the light. The grandparents noticed nothing. Both my daughters told me about the experience.

    A friend of mine had been telling me for years about the way to die is to go into the woods at 100mph. One day we were talking about these types of occurances. He said back in high school, his senior year after I had gone off to college. He was out with a girl I knew. He was driving along River Road MUCH too fast. He remembers going into the woods at near 100mph. The next instant he opens his eyes and his car is sitting in the middle of the road sideways and the ignition is turned off. He starts the car and drives off and the girl just sits there shaking and won't talk about it.

    So, recurrance is an interesting hypothesis. It was interesting to run across it long after I had been experiencing it. It is the only description I have run across that fits my experience, which doesn't go away no matter how one might want to explain it out of existance. I can only change myself, as is the case of each of us. We can however, exchange information. We weave the tapistry of our life by passage through it's many varations over and over.

  6. #6
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    We weave the tapistry of our life by passage through it's many varations over and over.
    Is there an ultimate goal...or does one weave for the sake of weaving?

    The reason I ask this is that, at any point, if one should stop weaving then this would become the norm;
    as though one had never woven in the first place.

    Is that here and now?

    I am sort of playing devils advocate as the reason I am here at all is because the average life
    span of seventy years seems to be laid out in short as:

    Childhood – - parents looking after you and no worries
    Teenage - - - have fun and find out a few things outside of the parent box.
    Adulthood - - settle down, find a partner, have children and set the whole process in motion again
    Retired - - - - help keep the momentum going in the process started in Adulthood then die.

    In between the categories above there can be:
    Fun, love, laughter, sadness, sorrow, pain...blah blah blah...I mean etc...

    As all the above emotions can be reproduced chemically...\o/ what is the point?

    I cannot find a satisfactory explanation for the reason of life in the above and thus I search for a
    better answer.

    If life is fractal then right here and now is as good a place as any, is it not?
    Also does this imply that no matter how long we weave we never reach a
    destination?

    I apologise that all I have is questions and no answers.

    Am I missing the point?

    Ghislain
    Open Book
    "Dogmatic Assumption Inhibits Enquiry" Rupert Sheldrake

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghislain View Post
    Is there an ultimate goal...or does one weave for the sake of weaving?

    The reason I ask this is that, at any point, if one should stop weaving then this would become the norm;
    as though one had never woven in the first place.

    Is that here and now?

    I am sort of playing devils advocate as the reason I am here at all is because the average life
    span of seventy years seems to be laid out in short as:

    Childhood – - parents looking after you and no worries
    Teenage - - - have fun and find out a few things outside of the parent box.
    Adulthood - - settle down, find a partner, have children and set the whole process in motion again
    Retired - - - - help keep the momentum going in the process started in Adulthood then die.

    In between the categories above there can be:
    Fun, love, laughter, sadness, sorrow, pain...blah blah blah...I mean etc...

    As all the above emotions can be reproduced chemically...\o/ what is the point?

    I cannot find a satisfactory explanation for the reason of life in the above and thus I search for a
    better answer.

    If life is fractal then right here and now is as good a place as any, is it not?
    Also does this imply that no matter how long we weave we never reach a
    destination?

    I apologise that all I have is questions and no answers.

    Am I missing the point?

    Ghislain
    Hi Ghislain,

    Scratch an alchemist, reveal a philosopher. It's not any safer. Both have been tortured and killed by those who don't approve.

    Is there an ultimate goal...or does one weave for the sake of weaving?

    Let's consider the situation. Does one live for the sake of living? We each have consciouness, now and eternally. In GROUNDHOG DAY the question is asked "So this is what you do with eternity?"

    Eternal life is not immortal life. We all die over and over. One can spend a long time being upset over this death or that death, to no avail. So one might be pissed off over being burned at the stake but it doesn't help to stay upset over it. It doesn't pay to try to destroy the instution that did it to you (ie the inquisition or nazis or whatever) because for one thing, they don't last. Maybe the pope will appologize, lot of good it would do, in some century for the inquisition burning lots of us at the stake seven centuries ago, murdering an estimated 8 million "pagan" women plus uncounted male companians (not husbands as they were not christian married) and children but not including gnostics, Cathers, Essenes and other heretics, some day, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Based on the percentage of population of the earth at the time the church may be the largest mass murderer of all time but may only be number two. In terms of todays population that would be the equivalent of murdering half a billion or so. Spread the religion by exterminating the competition becasue it worked better than talking at them, quite a strategy. Some foundation for a "spiritual" organization. The nazis with similar tactics caused such revulsion that they ceased to exist as a state very quickly.

    So the question comes down to what does one do with eternity. Is there a purpose? On a huge scale perhaps the purpose is to allow the Absolute itself to evolve or maybe even survive? Is it subject to predation from other bubble universes that somehow learn of other bubbles and "eats" them? How can the Absolute evolve to deal with that? So you think WE have problems? On a smaller scale what is the purpose of human life?

    In between the categories above there can be: Fun, love, laughter, sadness, sorrow, pain...blah blah blah...I mean etc...

    There is no fanfare of trumpets or flashing lights saying "this is the purpose of life". However, in the Monty Python movie of that name they take a pretty good shot at it and make a statement in the middle of the movie about the developement of a soul through specific conscious attention and then everybody gets immediately distracted and it is never mentioned again. If there is a purpose that would have to get my vote. We have attention and consciousness and the ability to work with LOVE. Using these we can construct a soul if you wish to call it that. The experience of Fun, love, laughter, sadness, sorrow, pain...blah blah blah...I mean etc... is perhaps what it is all about. Through experience we learn compassion among other things. Experience with consciousness and attention is far more effective at building a soul (self, body of habits, etc) than sleepwalking through life which does very little in that regard.

    The reason I ask this is that, at any point, if one should stop weaving then this would become the norm; as though one had never woven in the first place.

    Nope. Once a real change is made it has ALWAYS been that way. There is no preservation of prior state, only NOW. Unsaved changes will be lost. Writebacks only occur occasionally. The real change is stored in our "outside of time" "soul" and so affects us at all times in our lives. If we stop making changes it doesn't undo what we have already done. There is no undo. Also, as I follow the way of ordinary life I am just living a life, you know "chop wood, carry water". My relationships are a little different. They are either fairly distant or very deep. Occasionally I run into situations in which I can help a person out with a hint or shaktipat or whatever. More rarely somebody needs real help and that takes a lot longer. My friends are those I am working with. What I want from life has gotten a lot simpler. So I don't know if it is ever possible to actually stop weaving. The process keeps on ticking no matter what I do. I cooperate with it as everything goes better if I do.

    Is that here and now?

    There is nothing but now. So here you are right now. You have memory of a life you have lived. Maybe you also have memory of hundreds of lives you have lived. Can you tell the difference between what you walked through to aquire the memories versus having just awakened one day with all of them in your memory? Is there a difference? Did you really live any of them? The problem is raised in TOTAL RECALL. If any changes of how you would be occur whether you walk through the life one day at a time or you load them wholesale is there a difference? How can one ever tell? In SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIVE the protagonist wakes up in various periods of his life out of sequence. Is that fiction or can it happen here? I've experienced it. Sometimes a lot, sometimes only once or twice at a time. There was one particularly bad year I had healthwise and I had a couple of dozen "NDE" experiences, including several from which I returned, eventually, totally changed.

    If life is fractal then right here and now is as good a place as any, is it not? Also does this imply that no matter how long we weave we never reach a destination?

    As the fractal that is our self grows, so does our understanding. How much understanding is too much? Is there a limit of understanding that is a final destination? Getting "there" is all the fun because, like said of downtown Oakland, there is no there there. However, some of life becomes very accelerated. I started learning to ski at 15. At 19 I was teaching skiing part time after school each day and at 21 I was a professional ski patrolman at one of the toughest mountains in the USA. I bought my first SLR 35mm camera freshman year of college. Second semester freshman year I was president of the camera club, the only freshman president in the entire school. A year later I was a professional wedding, forensic and insurance photographer and I photographed more than 100 weddings before it came to an end, along with my professional level skiing when a hardware store van ran a red light and broke me in half sideways a few years later. One thing I have learned in this is, that the faster ones solves the problems the faster they come at you. So what is the destination? Death? Every time I die I eventually end up right back here. It is always temporary.

    As all the above emotions can be reproduced chemically...\o/ what is the point?

    Can they? I am experienced as Hendrix asked. I used to guide many folks through "death" experiences that were aided by high dose acid, sunshine, 'srooms, cactus etc. as well as endogenous chemicals generated in tantric sex. The tantric sex works much better in that you have to start where you are and work through it all whereas people who actually accomplish work with the chemicals may find it takes 10-20 years of work to hook up with that because they neglected their foundations by skipping all that lower level stuff powered by drugs. One doesn't learn how operate their own emotional system with drugs.

    I cannot find a satisfactory explanation for the reason of life in the above and thus I search for a better answer.

    I don't know that I can give you a satisfactory answer either. I am not a philosophical hedonist. The best I can come up with is "experience" which can include virtually everything life throws at one. It most certainly includes sex and the removal of barriers between people who can then learn to cooperate deeply. I think celibacy is often a copout, at least in those that I have met. It removes one entire section of life from experience and nothing else substitutes for it. Maybe those doing so have already dealt with all that in another life or will in a future one, I don't know. Remember however, I am building a structure which requires soundness and balance to work, rather than just removing blocks. Being a vegetarian almost killed me and destroyed most of what was important in my life. From the first day I could feel the changes. My spiritual vegetarian friends said "Spiritually necessary, toxins leaving, becoming purified". Unfortunately it was vitality leaving my body at a high rate. The only toxins involved was their BS. Hearing similar reasoning for celibacy makes me laugh. Now I go look for myself, and enjoy a medium rare chateau briand with the trimmings with my alchemical partner as part of a ritual meal prior to a session of Alchemical sex.

    What do you want out of life? What do you enjoy? What do you fear? What do you find interesting? "Interesting" holds up better than most things. Find "work necessity" in life and use it. Do what you do with enthusiasm.

    By all means enjoy life and have plenty of experience. Go to a nudist club and face your fears. Take up skydiving and/or scuba diving and face your fears. Jump off a cornice into deep powder on a high cirque. Take up Alchemical sex. Have fun. Use those experiences in your alchemy.
    Last edited by III; 10-21-2010 at 01:39 AM.

  8. #8
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    Hi Ghislain,

    I cannot find a satisfactory explanation for the reason of life in the above and thus I search for a better answer.

    I had a few more thoughts about your comments that I decided to add this way. I honestly can't say that anybody should actually practice Alchemy. Those that I know that have done so were all desparate. For me that desparation was to find out why life was clobberring me. I had an abusive and later on psychotic mother. I was sick all the time. It was a very Buddhist thing, "Life is sufferring". At some point I decided I had to know what was causing all this, what made it necessary for my life to be miserable. It expanded from there as I kept looking at larger and larger scales.

    There is no going back. I've never wanted to and neither has anybody else I know who has made the choice. However, it isn't ever what one would expect. You can't know what it is like until you take that step, and that is true over and over.

    Whatever, one finds in the way of TRUTH, doesn't change anything. We still end up in this world with whatever goes on here still going on. We merely have different explanations that start sounding like speculative quantum physics crossed with advaitist mysticism, such as in WHAT THE BLEEP, DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE.

    So let's have a trumpet fanfare and flashing lights because here is the best I can do in the moment about the reason for life. I don't find it very satisfying and maybe I'll have some other thoughts on it. So let's take a look at the metaphyscial structure of creation first. Here we are in a perceived universe with Kundalini and humans and life and all that. It's what we all see all around us. This appears to be cut off as a little selfcontained bubble separated by what looks like a speed of light barrier from the much larger eternal creation. This speed of light barrier is what separates us from the "eternal moment". It's what gives us the the abilty to stretch out the one cosmic instant into an infinity of time, general relativity and time dialation. In the cosmic instant nothing can change. If somehow it does, it has always been that way. Here, in this part of creation is where changes can be made, where evolution of consciousness can happen. Change flows up from here. Things that might appear to take years or millenia here make instantaneous changes in the cosmic instant. In his book, LIFE IN THE LABRYNTH EJ Gold wrote a poem about this called AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. I know of no better or more explicit or better said book about our situation. All of this is the manifest. There is of course the VOID filled with all the unrealized quantum possibility and no thing at all but there isn't much we can do with that. Others have said that what we see as matter is simply massively slowed down light, petrified light as it were. If the Absolute can change and evolve it has to happen here, where the rubber meets the road. We humans are the vehicle of change by each of us taking one very small byte of the elephant and having infinite time to process it. It is all quite impossible until it is done. The meditative approach is to know the TRUTH passively. The alchemist dedicates their life to act upon it and not be passive. The COS (Cosmic Operating System) can't be changed in the place where no change is possible. Here where we each contain (fractal) a copy of the COS we can get in and examine the pieces of it and make minute changes, each change below the level of perception at the Cosmic level. Billions of humans are each running a slightly different version of the COS, debugging it. If we are successful at that changing we pass that back upstream and the Cosmic level is changed. Does this give us a purpose or is it just too abstract? We can change ourselves, nothing else. We can examine how our own programming interacts with the variation of the COS we have and change that. Saying "That's not fair" doesn't get us anything except clobbered. If we debug our programming and occasionally a change in our own version of the COS life might get better, or not. If one is pursuing outcomes usually dictated by ego one makes bad choices in shaping ourself.

    So let's say one wants a common ego goal, "be rich". The system can be very accomodating. One changes oneself so that the life that fits us best will be one that includes wealth. We may not like all the side effects of being changed for wealth since we were not making our choices in terms of changes in self but rather changes in self were dictated by ego preferred outcome. For me to have "health" I had to find the reasons my DNA coding wasn't finding this environment health producing. I changed my self where necessary and learned what the environment wasn't supplying for my body's needs. I found that I needed larger quantities of natural b12 and a few other things. It might sound trivial but it wasn't since it went contrary to "Everything the scientists and doctors know about b12". They were wrong. In order to find this I had to grow and evolve and change enough to be able to see the whole pattern and find the bug despite the consensus to the contrary. I set out metaphysically to find out why my life was so troubled and found something I could change. In effect I also changed a little piece of the COS "below" which when I upload it at death may help evolve the "above".

    Whether life's existance as a mechanism of change is a satisfying explanation I can't tell you. Within my life I have all sorts of experience that causes change. To a large extent I can choose expereinces in tune with the needs of the system and when I do that life goes better without all the headbutting with the system. The better I understand the system the more freedom I have. As some will say it leads to liberation from having to be here. In the meantime I have an Alchemical partner with whom I live in a shared world and am not alone. While we are both parts of the one, we are different parts and can share those differences causing growth and evolution for both of us.

  9. #9
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    Resonating very much with your last post III.

    Of course, it is only the mind that assumes there is a reason for life.
    It's very difficult in my experience. To have a purpose is so comforting.
    But we must see that if life has a purpose it is already dead, not life.
    The truth is, we are free - there is no purpose, make your own if you like.
    For humans this freedom is very disturbing; it is unwanted, and yet sought for desperately.
    But when we find that we are free, we rush back to our limitations to extend the dream for just a while longer.
    I wish I had something more pleasant to report. But freedom is the stone we have rejected. Freedom is satan.
    It is the most frightening thing this ego has ever seen. How to go against self-preservation? We have to see
    that this little self is not the Self, and we have to fix that dream and make this ego-dream volatile.
    This is only for the insane.

  10. #10
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    Dear Sol,

    Absolutely. Every word you wrote above. You have put it coherently and in few words.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi View Post
    How to go against self-preservation?
    Chose death

    Quoth Janis: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"

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