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Thread: A Modern Sexual Alchemy

  1. #11
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    Androgynus.
    /heart icon/
    Or, as the Na'vi would say, "I see you"

    Yes, it is odd that death has been made an enemy to be feared.
    Everything is backwards here. Sanity is insane.

  2. #12
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    Anybody did experience a pretty impressive feeling of God´s /angel/ presence triggered by flame of a candle? Or by paying attention on "borders" of sounds, consciousness...

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    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi View Post
    Resonating very much with your last post III.

    Of course, it is only the mind that assumes there is a reason for life.
    It's very difficult in my experience. To have a purpose is so comforting.
    But we must see that if life has a purpose it is already dead, not life.
    The truth is, we are free - there is no purpose, make your own if you like.
    For humans this freedom is very disturbing; it is unwanted, and yet sought for desperately.
    But when we find that we are free, we rush back to our limitations to extend the dream for just a while longer.
    I wish I had something more pleasant to report. But freedom is the stone we have rejected. Freedom is satan.
    It is the most frightening thing this ego has ever seen. How to go against self-preservation? We have to see
    that this little self is not the Self, and we have to fix that dream and make this ego-dream volatile.
    This is only for the insane.
    Hi Solomon Levi,

    Freedom is satan.

    That I don't get at all. However, I have never incorprated a belief system that includes satan and have never seen a trace of any such thing in all my experience.

    When one enters into the Work, one takes on what might be called "fast karma" and freedom comes from clearing ones karma. This understanding came well after the fact of it during a series of metaphyscial discussions with my jnana Yogi friend.
    Last edited by III; 10-23-2010 at 08:01 PM.

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    Hi III.

    I guess that could use some explanation.
    Satan is the same archetype as Saturn, Kali, Siva... they are destroyers of order/ego, seen often as negative/evil,
    (everything is backwards) but truly the only path to freedom. Satan supposedly tempts us to do what we should not do -
    to break laws, rules, limits, taboos - things that give order through limitation.

    I do not mean to say I believe in a satan being. It is more impersonal, scientific - the force of solve/volatility/centrifugal/chaos...

    I do not see it is possible to clear one's karma. But one can kill the ego to whom the karma belongs (that is, realize its illusory nature).
    Freedom or enlightenment or moksha is not achieved linearly through time, but realized instantaneously, doing nothing.
    Karma is another law that can be broken when we see there is no doer.
    I mean no disrespect, but i hope that people will not waste their time with karma.
    The path of karma in the arena of karma is endless; like the ego trying to kill the ego.
    The consciousness that created a problem must evolve to solve the problem.
    The "problem" cannot be solved with the same consciousness.
    Karma cannot be solved by good deeds.
    Karma ceases when the doer ceases.

    solomon

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi View Post
    Resonating very much with your last post III.

    Of course, it is only the mind that assumes there is a reason for life.
    It's very difficult in my experience. To have a purpose is so comforting.
    But we must see that if life has a purpose it is already dead, not life.
    The truth is, we are free - there is no purpose, make your own if you like.
    For humans this freedom is very disturbing; it is unwanted, and yet sought for desperately.
    But when we find that we are free, we rush back to our limitations to extend the dream for just a while longer.
    I wish I had something more pleasant to report. But freedom is the stone we have rejected. Freedom is satan.
    It is the most frightening thing this ego has ever seen. How to go against self-preservation? We have to see
    that this little self is not the Self, and we have to fix that dream and make this ego-dream volatile.
    This is only for the insane.
    Hi Solomon Levi,

    I intend to reply a little more completely here beyond my one liner in the previous. Much of this is probably merely negotiation of meaning; perhaps coming to an agreement of what is meant by certain words used in various ways.

    The truth is, we are free -

    I think that can stand on itself. We are free, once we can see that.

    there is no purpose, make your own if you like.

    In terms of human purposes that is largely correct. The purpose that this bubble of spacetime has with us humans is something that is a little hard to wrap around unless one can see it as a whole from "above". It appears to function as a "change" generator allowing a sheltered workshop as it were for conscious beings to develop, grow and eventually, leave (graduate?) carrying inovations of structure and intelligence to be carried up to the unchanging. We are self designing self actualizing intellegences. Many of the macroconsciousness' one might run into in the macrodimensions are really quite stupid. They might be large and powerful but many are really quite stupid. Quite a few of them might even be insane as the gnostics maintained, that earth was being overseen by a mad "demiurge". There is a whole lot of conscious existance after we exit earth based life. While we get larger there, the ability to design our self, our intelligence, our basis of sanity, is here. This is where we come back to after bugs have been revealed by our expansion. So within a life the purpose is to have experiences, unspecified as to type, that reveals the bugs and allows us to fix them. Somehow that doesn't seem very satisfying because we are not told what to do or how. It is up to us to figure it out. That is our freedom. The mythologies that says we MUST do it this way with this belief or that based on hearsay from some authority's interpretation of what somebody said 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago are just mythologies. As we ARE the results of earlier stages of evolution, retracing previous steps endlessly and mindlessly doesn't pay off. Out of earths billions, only a few (compared to billions) will succeed with furthering evolution as a whole with innovations. Many will fill in details of many variations and most won't succeed in even producing a permanently existing consciousness.


    How to go against self-preservation?

    If by this you mean the self-preservation of the petty ego sure, but if you mean the making of the real SELF that becomes part of the macro eternal system that is something else entirely, and as I understand it is the purpose of Alchemy.

    But freedom is the stone we have rejected

    Yes, it is. Rejected because a myth (faith) is less scary and more comforting. TRUTH is most uncomfortable in what it tells us about ourselves and the situation.

    This is only for the insane

    That is a matter of definition. I would have said that this is only for the sane and that somebody who bases their life on belief systems that don't correspond with how things work are the insane, though maybe non-sane is a more meaningful word in this context.

    AWAKEN from the dream. That is what is sane.
    Last edited by III; 10-24-2010 at 02:46 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by solomon levi View Post
    Hi III.

    I guess that could use some explanation.
    Satan is the same archetype as Saturn, Kali, Siva... they are destroyers of order/ego, seen often as negative/evil,
    (everything is backwards) but truly the only path to freedom. Satan supposedly tempts us to do what we should not do -
    to break laws, rules, limits, taboos - things that give order through limitation.

    I do not mean to say I believe in a satan being. It is more impersonal, scientific - the force of solve/volatility/centrifugal/chaos...

    I do not see it is possible to clear one's karma. But one can kill the ego to whom the karma belongs (that is, realize its illusory nature).
    Freedom or enlightenment or moksha is not achieved linearly through time, but realized instantaneously, doing nothing.
    Karma is another law that can be broken when we see there is no doer.
    I mean no disrespect, but i hope that people will not waste their time with karma.
    The path of karma in the arena of karma is endless; like the ego trying to kill the ego.
    The consciousness that created a problem must evolve to solve the problem.
    The "problem" cannot be solved with the same consciousness.
    Karma cannot be solved by good deeds.
    Karma ceases when the doer ceases.

    solomon
    Hi Solomon,

    What I see here are merely descriptive/interpretive differences. Nothing we say affects what is.

    The path of karma in the arena of karma is endless; like the ego trying to kill the ego.

    Of course it is. Perhaps I should define my terms better. What we are is what we are. Our "karma" is inherent in what we are as the running total of all that has shaped us before. In a rebirth (recurrent or reincarnation, doesn't matter) the variation of the world we perceive is based on that structure. Our fears, our blocks, our taboos, our being all contributes to the perceived version of the world we find ourselves in. Karma per se can never be cleared as it is our very nature. However, used in a more common usage, the fears, the blocks, the intentional or accidental self blinding can be cleared and faulty structures changed as contributing factors to evolution, and that can happen more quickly, be sped up by cooperating with the process rather than denying and fighting against it. While one still has karma as that is a condition of life, it isn't a troublesome karma.

    Satan supposedly tempts us to do what we should not do -to break laws, rules, limits, taboos - things that give order through limitation

    Ahha, the mythology handed on by those who would keep us trapped and blind. So the rules, laws, limits, taboos and the like that say "Celibacy is required for spiritual growth" serves to keep us trapped for instance. There are good reasons to be careful in the practice tantric sex as getting a disease isn't a great idea. As "reflection" is a very real occurance here, if someone is nasty towards people they will tend to be nasty towards that person in return. I practice love, kindness, forgiveness, non-judgementalness and all that NOT because somebody's rules or laws say I should but because that is how I am and that is also how I would prefer to be treated. I make mistakes as does everybody.

    In college I was an anti war protester before it was popular. Individuals and groups of people came to beat me up over that and when I defended myself they felt put upon because they imagined that they were trying to beat the crap out of a pacifist so that they could do it in complete safety. Many of them were quite angry at me because I fought back and was willing to hurt them as they were trying to hurt me. I wasn't following their rules. When I was atttacked while on crutches with a sprained ankle from a previous attack I used a crutch as a quarterstaff and beat both of them off with it.

    Satan is the same archetype as Saturn, Kali, Siva... they are destroyers of order/ego, seen often as negative/evil,

    Ego is certainly a hinderance though I don't know that I would call it evil though it is negative. Everything I have heard said of Satan are ego characteristics. I certainly would not equate "ego" with "order". Usually it is the vision of order as seen and imposed by somebody else who puts themselves outside those same rules. You know, if you can't control yourself control others. I always viewed Shiva as a recycler. Shiva is half of the creator pair in alchemical union. For there to be "re"birth and "re"creation there is always first a deconstruction, a dissolution or death. How could it be otherwise? So the destroyer of the negative/evil ego should be a good thing.

    Freedom or enlightenment or moksha is not achieved linearly through time, but realized instantaneously, doing nothing

    Sure, after 20 years of preparation or whatever, it is realized instantaneously. And at that moment one realizes that "at last" and that there is no desire and nothing to do and no one to do it. So then, what is the next step? And there IS a next step that can be taken despite no need, no desire and no doer.

    Karma cannot be solved by good deeds.
    Karma ceases when the doer ceases.

    I could quibble a bit but I think it is just semantics. None the less one still lives in the word determined by one's structure.

    As one continues onwards after that generally habits, from the unchanged body of habits, will reassert, blocks will go back into place and the person will often go back to sleep completely unaware of having done so. I've seen that called "second sleep" and much more difficult to overcome because of being generally unaware of it. At that point one finds that one can progressively change ones structure so that the default state is unblocked and awake.

    However, that is still inside the bubble containing time and kundalini and all that which is thought to be the all and everything. That is an illusion most never get past. After that a whole new scale of being is possible but not nearly as easily found. Karma ceases to be relevant. Then the problem becomes how to get out of the incubator which has the illusion of being all of creation. That is a much greater mystery.

    So now this turns into that famed joke recipe for lost in the wilderness wild duck stew. First bring me the wild duck... If one is not careful it could turn into more of a pursuit of the wild goose or snipe. However, this is no joke.

  7. #17
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    Let's consider changes in neurology when learning new skills and practicing them. Studies have shown that it takes about 2 weeks of daily practice for new neurons to start to form. Over time new neurological patterns form that can be seen with MRI and fMRI imaging. These will cause neural currents to flow in a pattern literally determined by the neurons. This will form "shapes" of energy. Electromagnetic fields are generated by current flowing. Some "shapes" will resonate with a specific energy pattern and others won't. RFID tags do just that, and those can simply be circuits printed on paper. The circuit is the shape or pattern. The fractal antenna picks up all sorts of signals more easily than an antenna designed for one specific frequency and direction. Further, in paired alchemical sex there are quite a number of positions. These can be quite specific. So in a sitting face to face, yub-yum, there are several variations of head positions, i.e. forehead to forehead or heads next to each other, hand position of each person and so on. The energy flows that are emphasized by each position are different. If a pair are lining up their chakras to have fully exchanging chakra flows they might sit one way versus another with different objectives. Front to back versus front to front produces quite a different effect. One might say that how we resonate with each other depends upon alignment of bodies.

    So in learning meditation of various types we literally alter our brains to favor those meditations. In the various sexual alchemical techniques one learns a variety of sexual meditations. The simultaneous orgasm, much sought and quite elusive, is an excellent example. Some will talk about the "myth" and the unatainability for most people or most over 50 or whatever. There is much nonsense promulgated about the simultaneous orgasms because most of the people spouting such things haven't the faintest idea of how to actually do it reliably and repeatedly. When a person doesn't know how to do something, how can they do anything but put forth theories or regurgitated information and/or utter nonsense. "Knowing" academically how to do it is not the same as being able to actually do it. And therein lies the rub. Most of the people writing about these things can't actually do them. How can simultaneous orgasm be taught if it can't even be talked about much less directly taught or demonstrated. Then throw in the "7 stages of orgasm" from Taoist alchemy and a half a dozen other types or variations of orgasm with various subtle and not so subtle differences and it gets very complicated when so-called "experts" (ex spurts?) can't even agree about the existence of vaginal and/or clitoral and/or g-spot etc orgasms. The internet has changed everything because mixed in with copious nonsense there is also some excellent and accurate information that often would never be found beforehand. In 1970 such information was nigh on impossible to find even if you knew it existed somewhere. Information that has been tightly guarded secrets for hundreds or thousands of years is readily available and the challenge is now to sort out what is useful NOW from that which is not useful.

    So is it actually “orgasm” we are dealing with or is one of the 10 (or whatever) strong energy flows an orgasm and the other 9 are something similar but not orgasm? I don’t know. “Cosmic orgasm” is another term I have seen others use to describe these intense flows of energy/knowledge. Orgasm is a very overloaded term. Some would say that it isn’t orgasm if it doesn’t include ejaculation or it’s not orgasm is it continues for hours. So it’s a convenient word for lack of any better language
     
    Then lets add another complication, language. Consider the problem at the time of Christ and a couple of millennia afterwards. An average non-literate person might have a vocabulary of under 1000 words, including a dozen or so animals with all the rest being "beasts". "How many beans, Baldric?" "One bean, two beans, three beans, many beans my lord (Black Adder)." So how many words would they have to describe the many variations of stimulation, orgasms and sex? Four to six maybe? You know the local common language equivalent of cunt, prick, fuck and semen. See anything missing there? Are subtleties and distinctions possible with a terribly limited vocabulary? What would have happened in 1900 if I had tried to give a public lecture about these things in the "civilized world"? In many cultures women were "unclean" for 5-12 days a month. So let's suppose that there is a tantric mystic of that period who knows exactly how to do the simultaneous orgasm who writes about it. What words would s/he use to describe it and how to do it? What are the words of the period for orgasm? Clitoris? G-spot? High cervical trigger? Orgasmic inevitability? Erotic Trance? and so on for the entire language we might use to describe things. How might one say "Find 10 different distinct energies generated by massaging or stroking the clitoris" or the same for 20 different energies for the entire vulva or the comparable tissues for the male.

    The focus was much more on the male as so much is readily visible there and things were very male centric in most sex denying societies where as female centric in Goddess worship. In the male for instance there are separate nervous system energies for erection, for ejaculation and orgasm. Ejaculation can happen without orgasm and orgasm can happen without ejaculation. Both can happen without erection and of course erection can occur independently of the other two. And possibly at least because of language limitations one sees "Don't spill the seed" or "semen retention" when a more specific "bypass ejaculation while letting the orgasmic energies flow unrestricted that can go on and on and keep building" can't even be spoken. Then there is the interpretation that the injunction was more to prevent the waste of energy of solitary sex, that sex should always be with somebody else for energetic purposes.
     
    And then you had medieval alchemists who had to invent a language that intentionally concealed what they were doing but was consistent enough that they could record what they did for future reference. If an accurate and understandable version were found they would be tortured and murdered. It had to look like something else entirely, something not subject to immediate torture and murder.

    In 1900 women in some countries had to go to doctors to have orgasms for treatment of prehysteria. Excuse me, they didn't have orgasms, they had hysterical paroxysm via pelvic massage by a doctor. It wasn't anything any decent husband would do, rubbing/massaging her clitoris and g-spot with a finger.It certainly wasn't sexual.Sex is penis in vagina, moved around for a few minutes until the guy spurts. Giving an internal massage with penis for 3 hours without spurts in a sitting position wasn't really sex either, it was perversion, wrong position, way too long and no semen for ferilization negating the sole permissable reason for sex.. That wasn't anything you could find out in the 50s or 60s or 70s or 80s. The information, that hysterical paroxysm was the same as orgasm just wasn't available to the masses or was carefully hidden away. I know because I looked and tried to find it in a good sized university with medical school library. Every reference I found danced all around the topic. Nobody was going to actually reveal the situation. THE ROAD TO WELLVILLE was a big revelation for most.

    Rubbers and skins (condoms to you youngsters) were sold “For the prevention of disease ONLY.” Any other use was illegal in some states. In Boston people were still being prosecuted for advocating birth control and giving away contraceptive foam. I tried to buy a package of condoms in a town outside Boston on the day before New Years in December 1969. I had to go to multiple stores before one of the druggists would finally sell me some. And KY jelly was just about as impossible to buy without being given the third degree by the druggist. And when they were actually going to sell you some they would shout loudly “Bring me a package of Fourx” or whatever brand you were buying trying to discourage people by embarrassment. Many people walked out of the stores with no purchases then, especially in a town in which there were known. Even in Ohio, when I bought a box of condoms it was announced loudly to everybody in the drugstore, which in a big drugstore might be 50-100 people at busy times. I remember the big fuss about changing the law that required that they be kept under the counter and instead be racked in the store. That was fought for years. It was a real surprise to move to Utah and find them on display racks in the supermarket in far more variety than I had any idea of. The myth of the so-called female orgasm was still being debated.

    At that time chronic pain wasn’t treated and was considered untreatable. Some medical textbooks still in print then and originating in the 50s said that pain should not be treated so that the person would “experience the pain of Christ on the cross thereby preparing them for death”. Forty years have made for massive changes in language and social conventions.

    The lotus in temple and tomb art was considered to be a euphemism for some unknown thing until the blue lotus was identified and the testing was done discovering that it had mild psychoactive components and a natural viagra type drug. So picture some cannabis and viagra joined together and used in rites with priest and priestess. What would those sacred rites be? What was thought to be an unknown euphemism turned out to be a literal whose effects were so completely familiar to everybody that they needed no explanation at all until the culture disappeared and the blue lily became a decorative plant only with it‘s history lost. While some might like it as a "lifestyle" drug, as it is currently being sold, it would have been quite useful for sexual alchemy.

    Archeology and biology and all sorts of such things are undergoing new understandings. In the 19th and most of 20th century cultural prejudices influenced so-called scientific understanding. Lizards and birds and such all had to fit into the tree of life showing how they all lead to the "crown of creation",humans. Now the tree of life is redrawn showing birds in no way lead to humans. Very troubling for 19th century archeologists were all those stone alters that were apparently designed for sex that had catch basins carved out under the genital area. What could possibly be the intent? It was unthinkable for a century or more that it was to catch the orgasmic fluids of male and female. Why did they need to be collected? The idea that they would be consumed as a sacrament, diluted in wine so there was enough for everybody to get some, was too awful and disgusting to think about. First a ceremonial audience watches the sex and then they drink it’s products as sacrament? Of course oral sex was forbidden, a perversion, too awful to think about, at least publicly. It was illegal and subject to a decade of imprisonment in some states. However, smaller groups might have the honor of drinking directly from the 4 petal pink lotus.

    A practiced priestess can keep the juices (medicines) flowing with more or less continuous orgasm for an hour or longer. Such great skills could be had by well practiced priestess and it was a cherished gift. This is something that many can learn in 6-12 months or so of practice. How could things like that be sacred? So such things were suppressed because of cultural prejudices. And yet the "Great Rite" and yoni and lingam pujas existed in various forms in multiple societies for thousands of years. The church murdered millions trying to wipe out such rites and pushed the idea that sex was sin. Openly performed ritual sex before hundreds or even thousands, of all varieties was common under a variety of names and timings, whether on the full moon or other times such as May day and harvest festivals which started out as fertility rites and often became large scale community orgies as everybody joined in. The "groves in high places" were either accidentally or intentionally shaped features of a mound with a depression having a pole (phallus) in the middle and when available were often where such rites were performed. The May pole is a remnant of such. As the Christians started suppressing the lower 3 chakra energies and emphasizing just the upper ones they were brutal. As the British and Spanish spread their Christian empires throughout the world they murderously suppressed all "primitive" cultures and sexual practices. Instead they substituted "Virgin Mary" for the sexual Goddesses, celibacy was considered sacred instead of the ability to hold an erection for an entire group to anoint, or to produce "milk and honey" which is then consumed or for the priestess to be able to display "the lower gate of heaven" and produce the sacred medicines, also "milk and honey" in some areas, for consumption.

    To find all this one has to read between the lines and euphemisms of many reports because none of the older ones will tell it straight. It also helps to be able to do what is described and so know what is possible, not fanciful. The language such as there is, usually is translated in the least menacing to the archeologists cultural prejudices way possible. So is there actually any need to rub an erection with "milk and honey" or is that actually produced by said rubbing? Anointing with oil helps. Again, if the priest bypasses ejaculation, the "milk and honey" can flow for an extended period. Everybody gets to share the sacred energies and fluids. If one believes that sex, and most especially semen, is for reproduction only and even that is sinful, how is that going to affect interpretation and suppression of such rites.
    You may wonder if such things are actually done. Several modern variations are done in the USA. The ones you can find are ones advertised on the internet and that charge sizable membership fees for such living yoni and lingam puja activities, often run by sex workers. However, these may have taken the care often to have registered as a church and qualified under IRS rules. Then there are the ones done at unregistered “home churches” and other places. Some of these are done with the priest or priestess in vacbeds (essentially a totally form fitting whole body condom) so that there is zero skin to skin contact and fully confined bodily fluids. Another variation of practice is to put the fluids in brandy first and then after anything in them is dead, add them to the traditional wine. Many of the home based practices include no more than perhaps a dozen people if even that many. Another practice is to rent one of the “workshop” houses and the whole thing is done and gone, never to repeat there and quite unstoppable, avoiding persecution by the authorities that repeated usage might trigger.

    The very idea that sex is a totally private hidden thing is quite recent in history. It was sacred and ritual. It was art. It was entertainment. Be careful about applying modern assumptions of a culture of shame and sin to anything sexual. Some things however, that were terribly hidden and taboo have now become very common. A modern pubic hair style, removal or shaping of such from totally bald to “landing strips“, hearts, peace symbols and tufts, goes way back. The Egyptians had metal tweezers as a follow-up to clam shells, and knew all about waxing with beeswax and gauze, and even sugaring and threading at various times and places They even had metal razors. In a variety of cultures the priests and priestesses were pubicly smooth and in some the priests would have every hair on their body removed, often very painfully with tweezers, clam shell tweezers, wax or sugaring and threading. The Egyptians even removed the hair on the head and wore wigs. Let’s face it, pubic hair removal is a practical matter for those doing alchemical sex for all sorts of reasons. Now that it is in style again it doesn’t make one obvious because so many are going smooth. I must confess that the idea of having tender areas waxed or plucked one hair at a time is scary. I occasionally have had dreams of being thoroughly plucked by 3 servant girls with clam shells at the same time. It wasn’t fun and games.

    To sum it up the brain changes to make the things we learn easier and better. For instance, these various types of “orgasm” become easier, more frequent and then when readily repeatable of increasing intensity. Like many other energy flow intensities in the body they “rescale” over and over. They get extremely intense and then suddenly something changes, the intensity remains the same but suddenly changes so that wile the intensity seems less in certain ways it becomes more substantial. This keeps increasing with these larger more intense steps until they again reach the top of intensity and then rescale again. It’s difficult to describe until you feel it happen over and over. On a side note, pain works the same way as far as I can tell. Now let’s reframe this in modern language. Consider that these energies, these many types of orgasm energies are in effect our cosmic modem signal and when we have “negotiated“ the connection the flow of energy, the carrier wave, starts up. In sex magik practice the prayer or desire or whatever is supposed to be imprinted upon these orgasmic energies carrying them to non-physical levels for as long as they are maintained. This appears to be the case on all the branches of western sex magik stemming from Paschal Beverly Randolph and probably other streams of it as well.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_Beverly_Randolph

    These flows of energy like all of the various chakra energies are all carriers of vast amounts of information that can be “slowed down and expanded” until the information can be read.
     
    Last edited by III; 10-24-2010 at 02:53 AM. Reason: formatting

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    Quote Originally Posted by III View Post
    Hi Solomon Levi,

    I intend to reply a little more completely here beyond my one liner in the previous. Much of this is probably merely negotiation of meaning; perhaps coming to an agreement of what is meant by certain words used in various ways.

    Yes, I agree.

    The truth is, we are free -

    I think that can stand on itself. We are free, once we can see that.

    Yes. That is the bottom line.

    there is no purpose, make your own if you like.

    In terms of human purposes that is largely correct. The purpose that this bubble of spacetime has with us humans is something that is a little hard to wrap around unless one can see it as a whole from "above". It appears to function as a "change" generator allowing a sheltered workshop as it were for conscious beings to develop, grow and eventually, leave (graduate?) carrying inovations of structure and intelligence to be carried up to the unchanging. We are self designing self actualizing intellegences. Many of the macroconsciousness' one might run into in the macrodimensions are really quite stupid. They might be large and powerful but many are really quite stupid. Quite a few of them might even be insane as the gnostics maintained, that earth was being overseen by a mad "demiurge". There is a whole lot of conscious existance after we exit earth based life. While we get larger there, the ability to design our self, our intelligence, our basis of sanity, is here. This is where we come back to after bugs have been revealed by our expansion. So within a life the purpose is to have experiences, unspecified as to type, that reveals the bugs and allows us to fix them. Somehow that doesn't seem very satisfying because we are not told what to do or how. It is up to us to figure it out. That is our freedom. The mythologies that says we MUST do it this way with this belief or that based on hearsay from some authority's interpretation of what somebody said 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago are just mythologies. As we ARE the results of earlier stages of evolution, retracing previous steps endlessly and mindlessly doesn't pay off. Out of earths billions, only a few (compared to billions) will succeed with furthering evolution as a whole with innovations. Many will fill in details of many variations and most won't succeed in even producing a permanently existing consciousness.


    Yes. If I were to agree to a purpose it would be "to make known the unknown"


    This is only for the insane

    That is a matter of definition. I would have said that this is only for the sane and that somebody who bases their life on belief systems that don't correspond with how things work are the insane, though maybe non-sane is a more meaningful word in this context.

    AWAKEN from the dream. That is what is sane.
    Yes. I suppose that if we are the minority then we are the insane. But you're right - it's the other way around.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by III View Post
    Hi Solomon,

    Greetings III!

    What I see here are merely descriptive/interpretive differences. Nothing we say affects what is.

    Yes. It's nice to talk with someone about these things. I like the challenge of communicating and listening.

    The path of karma in the arena of karma is endless; like the ego trying to kill the ego.

    Of course it is. Perhaps I should define my terms better. What we are is what we are. Our "karma" is inherent in what we are as the running total of all that has shaped us before. In a rebirth (recurrent or reincarnation, doesn't matter) the variation of the world we perceive is based on that structure. Our fears, our blocks, our taboos, our being all contributes to the perceived version of the world we find ourselves in. Karma per se can never be cleared as it is our very nature. However, used in a more common usage, the fears, the blocks, the intentional or accidental self blinding can be cleared and faulty structures changed as contributing factors to evolution, and that can happen more quickly, be sped up by cooperating with the process rather than denying and fighting against it. While one still has karma as that is a condition of life, it isn't a troublesome karma.

    You say "all that has shaped us before". Can you give me more definition there? What exactly does karma shape? What is "us"?
    For me, when karma is spoken of as a past that shapes the present, this past must be mind - only mind acknowledges the past.
    It seems logical to me that if the past can shape something, it must be the false mind/ego, which does not exist save as an apparent past.
    And since this ego is false, smoke and mirrors, memories... there is nothing to be done about its karma.
    The "speeding up" thing... time. You lose me there. I mean I can follow you; I see what you're saying. But as long as we
    are speaking of/from the field of separation, there's no difference between faster and slower evolution. The separation is not a linear one
    on the same plane, but rather a quantum leap or dimensional shift. A slowly evolving person could "arrive" before a quickly evolving person.
    Because it's, say, a vertical leap having nothing to do with horizontal velocity.
    I guess we also have to define what is being evolved. If one is evolving the mind/ego - "I know more now than I knew then" -
    then this is illusion: what appears to be evolution is merely moving from one corner of the box to another.


    Satan supposedly tempts us to do what we should not do -to break laws, rules, limits, taboos - things that give order through limitation

    Ahha, the mythology handed on by those who would keep us trapped and blind. So the rules, laws, limits, taboos and the like that say "Celibacy is required for spiritual growth" serves to keep us trapped for instance. There are good reasons to be careful in the practice tantric sex as getting a disease isn't a great idea. As "reflection" is a very real occurance here, if someone is nasty towards people they will tend to be nasty towards that person in return. I practice love, kindness, forgiveness, non-judgementalness and all that NOT because somebody's rules or laws say I should but because that is how I am and that is also how I would prefer to be treated. I make mistakes as does everybody.

    There is the mythology, but I meant to address the reality of a "tempting" force. Aren't we compelled to
    do that which is denied us, what is forbidden, even if not simply to prove that we are greater than rules and laws. Thank god Eve ate
    the apple! I call that evolution (or involution, depending on what level you interpret the story). Everything was different after that.
    Not everyone rebels; but I wouldn't say the conformists are the spearhead of evolution. Cain and Satan/Lucifer are archetypal rebels.



    Satan is the same archetype as Saturn, Kali, Siva... they are destroyers of order/ego, seen often as negative/evil,

    Ego is certainly a hinderance though I don't know that I would call it evil though it is negative. Everything I have heard said of Satan are ego characteristics. I certainly would not equate "ego" with "order". Usually it is the vision of order as seen and imposed by somebody else who puts themselves outside those same rules. You know, if you can't control yourself control others. I always viewed Shiva as a recycler. Shiva is half of the creator pair in alchemical union. For there to be "re"birth and "re"creation there is always first a deconstruction, a dissolution or death. How could it be otherwise? So the destroyer of the negative/evil ego should be a good thing.

    Siva is also part of a trinity: Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, the preserver, and Siva, the destroyer.
    Yes, the destroyer of the ego should be a good thing. But it's not to social consciousness and the dreaming hordes.


    Freedom or enlightenment or moksha is not achieved linearly through time, but realized instantaneously, doing nothing

    Sure, after 20 years of preparation or whatever, it is realized instantaneously. And at that moment one realizes that "at last" and that there is no desire and nothing to do and no one to do it. So then, what is the next step? And there IS a next step that can be taken despite no need, no desire and no doer.

    Well, you know my view - all the preparation in the world means nothing. The unprepared may achieve
    it before the well-prepared. Vertical versus horizontal.
    The next step will be apparent when one is there. It can't be foreseen or planned. Because s/he is no longer operating from
    the past, it is unpredictable.



    Karma cannot be solved by good deeds.
    Karma ceases when the doer ceases.

    I could quibble a bit but I think it is just semantics. None the less one still lives in the word determined by one's structure.

    I don't know what you mean - "one's structure". I suppose this refers to what you said earlier about being shaped by our karma.
    There are people in this world who have succeeded in eliminating, or transcending, defining structures, ego, karma.
    Take, for instance, Castaneda's don Juan: "Sorcerers have only one reference point: Infinity."
    What structure do you suppose such a being has? What is to hold them to any particular world from one moment to the next other
    than their attention or intention? I take it from your statements below that you do agree that such beings exist.



    As one continues onwards after that generally habits, from the unchanged body of habits, will reassert, blocks will go back into place and the person will often go back to sleep completely unaware of having done so. I've seen that called "second sleep" and much more difficult to overcome because of being generally unaware of it. At that point one finds that one can progressively change ones structure so that the default state is unblocked and awake.

    This "second sleep" is a fascinating observation.

    However, that is still inside the bubble containing time and kundalini and all that which is thought to be the all and everything. That is an illusion most never get past. After that a whole new scale of being is possible but not nearly as easily found. Karma ceases to be relevant. Then the problem becomes how to get out of the incubator which has the illusion of being all of creation. That is a much greater mystery.

    So now this turns into that famed joke recipe for lost in the wilderness wild duck stew. First bring me the wild duck... If one is not careful it could turn into more of a pursuit of the wild goose or snipe. However, this is no joke.
    I don't see such illusions existing when the mind ceases to exist. One doesn't perceive 'here' and 'there' or 'this' and 'other'.
    Thus it is called non-duality. Are you saying there is more beyond non-duality? Or are you describing a pre- non-dual state?
    It appears pre- non-dual to me. Who would be there to think about getting out of an incubator?

  10. #20
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    Hi Solomon,

    Yes. It's nice to talk with someone about these things. I like the challenge of communicating and listening.

    It is a real challenge to genuinely understand another. At one level it might be said that it is pure illusion that there is one to understand and other to be understood.

    I really have been at this a long long time which seen another way is a mere instant for all of it. However, even in the "eternal" there is the appearance of sequence within the experience. We are not engineered to speak about it and we don't have the language to speak about it. So all we can do is very approximate speaking around Robin Hood's barn. I will use the language of time and space as that is where we are. I will speak from experience as much as possible though I definitely will borrow ways to speak about it wherever I find a useful way.


    You say "all that has shaped us before". Can you give me more definition there? What exactly does karma shape? What is "us"?

    Let's get directly to the crux (or should that be crutch?) of the matter. Let's use a "tree of life" metaphor here. The system is very accommodating. If I see the nature of consciousness in terms of size, with each large size being made up as a composite contining alll smaller sizes along it's path of ascent, arranged for instance as a "tree", maybe even as a "binary tree", then I see it arranged in that archetype. Franklin Merrell Wolff wrote a book called PHILOSOPHY OF CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT AN OBJECT. At the root node of this tree all consciousness is. There is nothing to be conscious of, no object; simply consciousness with no object to be conscious of. Way way way down the tree consciousness is totally fragmented into tiny pieces. There are all sorts of objects (other chunks of consciousness) to be conscious of but nothing to be conscious with so at that end it is objects without much of a consciousness. Somewhere in between there are sizable chunks of consciousness and things to be conscious of.. Now this is just a very approximate way to say certain things borrowing from others' descriptions and glued together with my experience.

    For starters, our tie of consciousness to the body is only an illusion. Our bodies are only illusions but in in spacetime it all seems real enough. What my experience is, is that this spacetime, including the appearance of eternity, is part of a bubble (virtual holodeck) that is cut off from "eternity" by what looks like a speed of light barrier. So between "here" and "local eternity" is one speed of light barrier and between "local eternity" and "greater eternity" is another speed of light barrier, or maybe one of them is something different. There is NO authority to define this. I have seen enough descriptions of these things described by others and have voyaged there with others that I have no doubt of it's existence and consider these things fully validated. What it MEANS is an entirely different matter. I am merely attempting to describe what I have experienced. As Gahan Wilson said "I only draw what I see".


    In the mystical yoga literature, and in direct conversation with a friend, a jnana Yogi, it is taught that the "soul" (Or Atman?) or whatever it is called in that level of yoga knowledge, at the time of death of one who is liberated, falls into the Absolute eternally. If one takes that and compares that to the infall into a black hole, apparent duration becomes infinite at the speed of light. The stretching out of time to seemingly infinite duration as one approaches the speed of light become intuitively obvious to the most casual observer upon the experience of it. If one can somehow jump past the event horizon rather getting caugtht in the Hero's Paradox of getting infinitely closer for infinite time everything changes.

    Here you are. Here I am. Let's not get caught up in the illusion of what we are. The most objective description of what one is that each of us is a pattern of energy which is part of a larger pattern which is part of a larger pattern ad infinitum. At the moment, what that pattern is, where it is how it is etc is not the subject, just that there is a pattern.or something that might be described as a pattern. It is a pattern that is with me no matter where or when or what I think I am. The pattern isn't "me" per se. Without consciousness animating the pattern it is just part of the cosmic fractal. And yet, when the pattern has a current of consciousness activating it, there "I" is. If the pattern is modified, then the resultant of the consciousness activating it is different, there is a change in understanding, a change in perception of the world, a change in action of some kind perhaps. When consciousness is passed through the pattern it acts as a template giving forth the most current result based on all the changes to the template

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

    Para Brahman corresponds to the concept of Godhead and Saguna brahman to God as the Primordial Being.
    It is said that Brahman cannot be known by material means, that we cannot be made conscious of it, because Brahman is our very consciousness and being. Brahman is also not restricted to the usual dimensional perspectives of being, and thus enlightenment, moksha, yoga, samādhi, nirvana, etc. do not merely mean to know Brahman, but to realise one's "brahman-hood", to actually realise that one is and always was Brahman. Indeed, closely related to the Self concept of Brahman is the idea that it is synonymous with jiva-atma, or individual souls, our atman (or soul) being readily identifiable with the greater soul (paramatma) of Brahman.
    Generally, Vedanta rejects the notion of an evolving Brahman since Brahman contains within it the potentiality and archetypes behind all possible manifest phenomenal forms. The Vedas, though they are in some respects historically conditioned, are considered by Hindus to convey a knowledge[2] eternal, timeless and always contemporaneous with Brahman. This knowledge is considered to have been handed down by realised yogins to students many generations before the Vedas were committed to writing. Written texts of the Vedas are a relatively recent phenomenon.
    Connected with the ritual of pre-Vedantic Hinduism, Brahman signified the power to grow, the expansive and self-altering process of ritual and sacrifice, often visually realized in the sputtering of flames as they received the all important ghee (clarified butter) and rose in concert with the mantras of the Vedas. The term Brahmin in the Vedic period actually meant one who has realized Brahman. However, later on Brahmin came to be identified with the highest of the four castes, the Brahmins, who by virtue of their purity and priesthood were held proprietors of rituals.
    Among Hindu sects, Advaita Vedanta espouses monism. The closest interpretation of the term can be found in the Taittiriya Upanishad (II.1) where Brahman is described as satyam jnanam anantam brahman . Thus, Brahman is the origin and end of all things, material or otherwise. Brahman is the root source and Divine Ground of everything that exists, and is the only thing that exists according to Shankara. It is defined as unknowable and Satchitananda ("Truth-Consciousness-Bliss"). Since it is eternal and infinite, it comprises the only truth. ("Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity") The goal of Vedanta is to realize that the soul (Atman) is actually nothing but Brahman. The Hindu pantheon of gods is said, in the Vedas and Upanishads, to be only higher manifestations of Brahman. For this reason, "ekam sat" ("Truth is one"), and all is Brahman. This explains the Hindu view that "All paths lead to the one Truth, though many sages [and religions] call upon it by different names."

    Stated opinions and beliefs change over time. Dualism and non-dualism come in and out of favor. The idea that the Brahman could evolve changes over time. However, the ability to evolve or not doesn't change though the speed of changes might change. On a far more macro scale the Brahman could be said to be the template through which consciousness is squirted to become the creation just as each of us has a template through which consciousness is squirted to become each of us, fully defined and shaped by that template. As we learn and die another layer is made on this template, sort of like a pearl.

    When we are (re)born we are squirted through our template, micro-Brahman as it were. With Alchemy we consciously start building this template more rapidly and in a planned fashion so as to produce certain kinds of results.This template controls how we think about things, what possibilities we see in events, and in it's sum total, even our karma.

    End of part 1

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