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Thread: Valuable Alchemical Texts

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisztian View Post
    I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?
    I'm not sure whether I'm just gullible or naive, but that's the very reason why I tend to rely on illustrations, paintings, and so forth. For some reason, I find that more credible. For example, The Crowning of Nature set of plates speak to me more than specific writings. I meditate on the images, and see where they take me.

    Anyone else feels that way?
    Introitus apertus ad occlusum Regis palatium / Labore et coeli favore / Nosce te ipsum

  2. #42
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    Hello Krisztian

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisztian View Post
    I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?
    I would agree that there will almost always be 'something' that's lost in any translation, and even more so with alchemical texts. I had never seen the hand written versions of the translations I had posted the links to and thought that some may find them interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisztian View Post
    I'm not sure whether I'm just gullible or naive, but that's the very reason why I tend to rely on illustrations, paintings, and so forth. For some reason, I find that more credible. For example, The Crowning of Nature set of plates speak to me more than specific writings. I meditate on the images, and see where they take me.

    Anyone else feels that way?
    I agree and feel that Images as well as poetic/metaphoric writing seem to have a way of communicating with the unconscious or deeper-self in ways that would be impossible using most literal forms of writing and communication.
    Still Searching.............

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibiru View Post
    I agree and feel that Images as well as poetic/metaphoric writing seem to have a way of communicating with the unconscious or deeper-self in ways that would be impossible using most literal forms of writing and communication.
    I think you summed it up quite well in this paragraph, Nibiru, better than I can say.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisztian View Post
    I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?
    I'm sure it differs from translation to translation, but I've been surprised by how alive the writings of artists such as Sendivogius or Fulcanelli feel to me. The way they string phrases together, the rhetoric they choose to use etc, communicates to one their emotional nature -- often what deeply stirs them, what they are in agreement on and what they worked hardest to find.

    I find this passage from New Chemical Light apropos for illustrating that:

    Many Sages, Scholars, and learned men have in all ages, and (according to Hermes) even so early as the days before the Flood, written much concerning the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone; and if their books could be understood without a knowledge of the living processes of Nature, one might almost say that they are calculated to supersede the study of the real world around us. But though they never departed from the simple ways of Nature they have something to teach us, which, in these more sophisticated times, still need to learn, because we have applied ourselves to what are regarded as the more advanced branches of knowledge, and despise the study of so "simple " a thing as natural Generation. Hence we pay more heed to impossible things than to those objects which are broadly exhibited before our very eyes, we excel more in subtle speculations than in a sober study of Nature, and of the meaning of the Sages. It is one of the most remarkable features of human nature that we neglect those things which seem familiar, and are eager for new and strange information. The workman who has attained the highest degree of excellence in his Art, neglects it, and applies himself to something else, or else abuses his knowledge. Our longing for an increase of knowledge urges us ever onward towards some final goal, in which we imagine that we shall find full rest and satisfaction, like the ant which is not endowed with wings till the last days of its life.
    Why does the author feel the need to repeat essentially the same point (the lack of attention paid to the simple things in nature such as generation) this many times? Why does he lapse into poetry and words such as "sober", "longing" etc (or rather their equivalents in Latin)? He uses rhetoric (The workman... abuses his knowledge - a generalization, but one based on observation). He says "living processes of Nature" rather than just "processes of Nature". Little adjectives like that matter.

    Asking these questions and letting yourself penetrate the character of the writer can be done as long as the translation is not terrible. Often charitable advice will be given in plain English and the more obscure chemical terminology is the parts more liable to error if the translation is not perfect. So I think you can still gain from a translation even if it is not perfect.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellin Hermetist View Post
    Thanks for that link with the works of Naxagoras Max. Do you plan to make also an English translation of Alchymia Denudata at a future time?
    The Alchymia Denudata is a pretty large work, therefore having the whole thing translated would be a pretty expensive affair even if many people join forces to cover the cost. However, to translate some parts of it is perfectly possible. I am primarily interested in 3 claims that other authors have found in this text, and which the author of the Alchymia Denudata in his turn probably derived from Kunckel and Sebald Schwaertzer:

    1- Juncker and Creiling claim that the dark calx obtained from silver and iron oxides in Becher's "Minera Arenaria" process can be made to yield real gold through special treatment with mercury or mercury sublimate (I think I have located the part of Alchymia Denudata that deals with this claim)

    2- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with silver and lead chloride and sal ammoniac were obviously derived from Alchymia Denudata (but I don't trust Fulcanelli's accounts of them, so I want to take a look at the original source he plagiarized without giving it any credit)

    3- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with pyrites or metallic iron dissolved in aqua regia are also derived from Alchymia Denudata (I have located the part of this text where Fulcanelli obviously found them without giving any credit to his source.) Juncker, however, says that these experiments are really by Sebald Schwaertzer (I have not been able to locate where exactly in the surviving texts connected to that author are these experiments found.)

    I am currently working on having some parts of Creiling's books translated by a very good German translator who only charges $0.03 per word translated into English. After we are done with Creiling's texts, we will start with the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain the above mentioned claims. If you -or anyone else- are interested in helping out to cover the translation costs, let me know. The more people who join such projects the cheaper it becomes per person and the more amount of text that can be translated.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam View Post
    which translated means: I would not count on this author too much, Kunkel already called him a cheat.

    we had an extended discussion about Kunkel and his credentials, long story short: NAX is not worth it.
    Curiously enough, the author of Alchymia Denudata obviously derived some claims out of Kunckel (see for example that gold experiment that produces a red sublimate; Kunckel published it first in his "Perspective Against Chymical Non-entities"), who in his turn got a lot of his processes from Sebald Schwaertzer and the so-called Saxon manuscripts. Kunckel was probably angry with whoever the author of Alchymia Denudata was for "stealing" those processes. But what did Kunckel do himself? He also got a lot of his claims from those older texts.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgynus View Post
    I can personally translate from German to English, but only if the German original is in modern Latin Alphabet (not German Script).
    If I gave you a transcribed German text of some parts of the letter of Dr. Edmund Dickinson to the "adept" Theodorus Mundanus, do you think you could provide a good English translation of it? I have a full transcription of the German version of these letters. The response letter from Mundanus to Dickinson was almost completely translated into English in the 17th century by Edmund Brice (only a short passage was left out from his translation), but he did not bother translating the also important letter of Dickinson to Mundanus.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The Alchymia Denudata is a pretty large work, therefore having the whole thing translated would be a pretty expensive affair even if many people join forces to cover the cost. However, to translate some parts of it is perfectly possible. I am primarily interested in 3 claims that other authors have found in this text, and which the author of the Alchymia Denudata in his turn probably derived from Kunckel and Sebald Schwaertzer:

    1- Juncker and Creiling claim that the dark calx obtained from silver and iron oxides in Becher's "Minera Arenaria" process can be made to yield real gold through special treatment with mercury or mercury sublimate (I think I have located the part of Alchymia Denudata that deals with this claim)

    2- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with silver and lead chloride and sal ammoniac were obviously derived from Alchymia Denudata (but I don't trust Fulcanelli's accounts of them, so I want to take a look at the original source he plagiarized without giving it any credit)

    3- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with pyrites or metallic iron dissolved in aqua regia are also derived from Alchymia Denudata (I have located the part of this text where Fulcanelli obviously found them without giving any credit to his source.) Juncker, however, says that these experiments are really by Sebald Schwaertzer (I have not been able to locate where exactly in the surviving texts connected to that author are these experiments found.)

    I am currently working on having some parts of Creiling's books translated by a very good German translator who only charges $0.03 per word translated into English. After we are done with Creiling's texts, we will start with the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain the above mentioned claims. If you -or anyone else- are interested in helping out to cover the translation costs, let me know. The more people who join such projects the cheaper it becomes per person and the more amount of text that can be translated.
    Hi JPD,

    I believe that the process given by Fulcanelli where we tinge gold to redness via repeated inquartation and parting with copper is also mentioned in this book. If I am correct in that, then seems that all of Fulcanelli's archemical experiments are taken from the works of Naxagoras. Have you tried the above experiment? I am working on that this period and after three meltings and partings I am stiil not able to discern any special redness at my gold metal. If you dont want to speak about it openly leave me a pm.

    Greetings,
    HH

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellin Hermetist View Post
    Hi JPD,

    I believe that the process given by Fulcanelli where we tinge gold to redness via repeated inquartation and parting with copper is also mentioned in this book. If I am correct in that, then seems that all of Fulcanelli's archemical experiments are taken from the works of Naxagoras. Have you tried the above experiment? I am working on that this period and after three meltings and partings I am stiil not able to discern any special redness at my gold metal. If you dont want to speak about it openly leave me a pm.

    Greetings,
    HH
    I have not been able to locate that claim in Alchymia Denudata yet, but you can find very similar claims about gold supposedly getting "redder" due to some supposed "sulfur" it gets from copper. Beguin and Thraster mention it, for example.

    Many years ago I did attempt to see if there was any truth to the nitric acid version of this claim by Fulcanelli (older authors than Fulcanelli, like Beguin and Thraster, speak of it as the result of special cementations), but just like your experiments so far, I found absolutely nothing of the sort. I melted 3 parts of copper with 1 of gold and separated them with nitric acid some 12 times. When I melted the resulting gold with silver and separated them with nitric acid there was no increase whatsoever in the gold.

    I find Fulcanelli to be an extremely unreliable writer. He very often plagiarizes other sources, giving no credit or references whatsoever where he got a particular claim, and to top it off he sometimes seems to either misinterpret them or withhold important parts as well. I find it therefore necessary to go and seek some of these sources he plagiarized and attempt to get translations so I can double-check them.

    I will have to say more about this if I can get the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain these claims translated. According to Juncker's descriptions of some of these experiments found in Alchymia Denudata and Schwaertzer's so-called Saxon manuscripts, Fulcanelli seems to have either misinterpreted them or withheld some information. And I trust Juncker more than Fulcanelli.

  10. #50
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    I have found the followings at the chemical works of Caspar Neumann. He was an older chemist, not an alchemist.

    "When pale, the colour of gold is heightened by melting it with copper and separating the copper. Juncker reports, from Alchymia Denudata, that, by melting gold with four times its weight of copper, separating the copper with aqua fortis, then melting the gold with the same quantity of fresh copper, and repeating the process eight or nine times, the gold becomes at last of a puniceous red colour, which sustains the action of lead, antimony and aqua fortis".

    As you repeated your melting and parting twelve times, the number of repetitions seems to be okay. Were you able to discern any redness or any change of colour to your metal after so many meltings and separations? Also did you reduce your alloy to a calx before the parting as some authors advise to do?
    Juncker is the same person with the one named Tugel or Jugel or another one?

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