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Thread: Yin - Yang

  1. #21
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    Thanks for getting back to me, White Belt.

    Would you happen to agree with this;

    Yang is an active force, like the Sun, however, the Sun still contains Yin (receptive force) in order for this active force (Yang) to be contained.

    Or another way to put it would be... Human Body is Yin (receptive force) while spirit is Yang (active force) in order for the individual (Spirit/Yang) to become contained.

    The ''Sun'' Body & Human Body is both Yin but the force that drives it is Yang, meaning there is Yin & Yang in both but in proportion.

    Does this sound accurate to you?
    If it does, then wouldn't this mean the Spirit of every female animal/human would be masculine?
    Last edited by tAlchemist; 09-20-2019 at 09:03 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    Thanks for getting back to me, White Belt.

    Would you happen to agree with this;

    Yang is an active force, like the Sun, however, the Sun still contains Yin (receptive force) in order for this active force (Yang) to be contained.

    Or another way to put it would be... Human Body is Yin (receptive force) while spirit is Yang (active force) in order for the individual (Spirit/Yang) to become contained.

    The ''Sun'' Body & Human Body is both Yin but the force that drives it is Yang, meaning there is Yin & Yang in both but in proportion.

    Does this sound accurate to you?
    If it does, then wouldn't this mean the Spirit of every female animal/human would be masculine?
    You are on the right path. I have to use sanskrit to explain as my understanding of this is a mixture from my teacher of taoist and sanskrit terms

    Ardhanarishvara means "the Lord Who is half woman."
    Ardhanarishvara represents the synthesis of masculine and feminine energies of the universe (Purusha and Prakriti) and illustrates how Shakti, the female principle of God, is inseparable from (or the same as, according to some interpretations) Shiva, the male principle of God. The union of these principles is exalted as the root and womb of all creation.
    The masculine active force of the spirit (atman) in male semen requires the receptive material matrix of the feminine womb, the material reality (prakrti).

    Purusha is a complex concept it means the cosmic man or Self, Consciousness, and Universal principle. Any Purusha concept refers to abstract essence of the Self, Spirit and the Universal Principle that is eternal, indestructible, without form and is all pervasive.

    Rishi Angiras explains that Purusha, the dweller in the body, is three-fold: the Bahyatman (the Outer-Atman) which is born and dies; the Antaratman (the Inner-Atman) which comprehends the whole range of material phenomena, gross and subtle, with which the Jiva concerns himself, and the Paramatman which is all-pervading, unthinkable, indescribable, is without action and has no Samskaras.

    I will post more soon!

  3. #23
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    Okay it's always been my intention to reply to this when I had some more contemplative time. Its now become very synchronistic. I'm going to handle the second part first, because that is all I saw the first time around.... I just came across Fuxi and Nuwa on my own yesterday, have come back here to formulate a reply and compare it to the Prima Materia emblem, only to find it's exactly what is here. I'll probably have to split this into two parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    Geometry and Alchemy and the Androgynous rebis figure.

    The Yin-Yang, the Materia Prima and the squaring of the circle.

    The compass and the square are the supreme tools of the ancient geometrician. The opposing equals of the compass and the square combined birth geometry and all its sciences. The dragons dual nature, its celestial and terrestrial terrains and the multiple meanings of the snake and dragon not only in Chinese mythology.

    The layers of symbolism here is probably most appreciated here on this forum.



    We are just starting to scratch the surface into what I was hoping some people here would be interested in. If anybody is starting to catch on please put your 2 cents in.
    So to me, this is Heaven and Earth, the Above and the Below, with the Dragon as the dividing line between the two. The bottom is a symbol of the duodenary structure of the Zodiac, or the Ecliptic plane. This is the boundary of the "World".. It represents the path the planets follow, including the Sun over the "Solar Year". You could just consider this bottom part an Orphic/Cosmological "egg", but the version of it you use here combines both the above and below in an egg-like structure. I believe this is the Ptolemaic conception.. I have an Islamic source that cites Ibn Arabi as considering it the "atlas sphere".

    12 is a highly composite number, with factors of 2, 3, 4, and 6 (If you understand how to draw the triangle, you understand how to draw the hexagon - the equilateral triangle is every second point of the hexagon). In terms of the solar year, the square/cross represents the equinoxes and solstices.. the "four corners of the world" (and roughly delineates the seasons). In astrology, the triangle and square represent triplicties and quadruplicities, and everything associate with those.



    To the greeks, the tetrad - 1 to 4 actually represents the entire decad (1-10), as 1+2+3+4 =10. 1-4 are considered the "realest", with the rest derived from those. It could also represent the 4 elements of the "sublunary" sphere. The tetrad, in the form of the Tetraktys, represents many aspects of Greek/hermetic metaphysics:







    I think the bottom half should be seen as tilted on the horizontal, and in this way, the "1" in the dragon's belly is actually over the center of the circle. This one is the "Monad", the centrum, from which Creation "Emanates" (actually a series of successive emanations). Which brings me back to the pole star/Axis Mundi. Draco is defined from between 7 and 31 stars depending on the source, but is generally considered to occupy every sign of the Zodiac, wrapped around the pole star. (and in some sources becomes a symbol of the entire zodiac, or ecliptic). It is the last guardian before entering the "realm of heaven".. I assume after an ascent through the planetary spheres..

    In the above section, the sun, moon, and other five classical planets are a bit trickier. I'm not sure if they should be taken to represent the actual planets/metals, or the higher "Forms/Ideas" (in a platonic sense) that lower planets/metals are a reflection of. Do the actual planets and planetary spheres belong to "heaven", above the Dragon, or are they part of Creation below? I'm not sure. But I lean towards seeing the "Above" as primordial or before Creation is manifest. In that case, the decad and the (idea of) the four elements are also more rightly contained within "heaven".

    The compass and the square are the supreme tools of the ancient geometrician. The opposing equals of the compass and the square combined birth geometry and all its sciences.
    Specifically, these are the tools of the Art or Craft of the "Geometry of Straight-Edge and Compass". The square is often referred to as a "ruler", but this is inaccurate, as it is unruled/unmarked. This is slightly different from "ordinary" geometry in that there are no measurements/calculations, only "organic" constructions created with compass and straight edge. When you understand the basic functions of SE&C, like bisecting an angle, it is understood that the square is just a short-cut for the function of drawing a line perpendicular to another. The straight edge and compass also bring us back to the "opposites" from the beginning of this thread, the straight line - male, active, and the circle, feminine and passive (sometimes compared to the womb). (in Kabbalah, the only two motions in the universe are Yasher - upright, straight (line) and Igul - curved, circular.

    Most metaphysical systems agree that the first thing that has to be "created", is the "space" for this creation to exist... as "nothing" is not "empty space", but the abscence of even space itself. And this creation of space is an evolution of dimensions, from none, to at least three. The Greeks have it 0 (point), 1 (line) 2 (shape - triangle) and 3 (body/corpus - tetrahedron). I've seen Islamic sources that have it Point-Line-Square-Cube. Traditional Kabbalah in my base, I guess.. It talks about the contraction to a point, and the "ray of light" that shines out (line) in "every direction", tracing out the 360 degrees of the circle (and every point in between), and the 360x360 degrees of the sphere.

    All the geometry signified on the lower half is acheived with straight edge and compass - splitting a circle into two, then four.. 8, 16, etc.. And 6/12/24 etc. So you have the planets travelling along the 12 signs of the ecliptic plane, which is just a band of the ecliptic sphere, and the 24 hour rotation of the "celestial sphere" based on the rotation of the earth/axis mundi.

    Six and twelve (sorry these are crappy I just quickly resized what I had already created)



    and bisecting the 12 angles for 24:



    the rotation of the earth/celestial sphere divided into 24 parts.. 12 hours day, 12 hours night:



    Here's a favorite image of mine, derived I'm sure from the Prima Materia diagram:



    It had a caption beside it, which badly translated comes out to something like:

    "This is to observe that everything that Master/Magician [Artifex] learns or wants to start in this high art. Let the Balance, the right-hand line [The square in his left hand], and the circle [the compass in his right hand] be well observed; so there is nothing unequal, nothing crooked, nothing out of the circle. That means that everything out of one thing should be put into one thing, like it is sufficiently shown in this cabalistic figure. And that the highest must simply be put into the meanest and the meanest put into the lowest and therefore linked and connected to each other & e contr."

    Here's another image (from 1510) that illustrates a lot of what I mentioned.. The decad, the square, the compass, the balance.. the sun and moon. 12 hours day, 12 hours of night, and the 4 elements:


  4. #24
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    As I said, I totally missed/skipped this part about Fuxi and Nuwa the first times reading this.. I had only concerned myself with the Prima Materia part and planned to reply sometime in the future..

    The inscription you quote below mentions the "ten thousand things" again.. I assume this means "multiplicity" or "differentiation"? I recognized it from something I included in my first reply in this thread, and links back to the Greek tetrad, 1-4 being responsible for all that come after:

    Dao gives birth to One
    One gives birth to Two
    Two give birth to Three
    Three give birth to ten-thousand things

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    "He who understands earth is a wise man, and he who understands heaven is a sage. Knowledge is derived from the straight line shadow, and that is derived from the right angled joint. The combination of the right angle with numbers is what guides and rules the ten thousand things."
    Chinese tomb inscription.


    So here's the synchronicity.. I had a bit of time to kill, so on Amazon Prime Video I decided to watch an episode of this show called "Numbers" (Five numbers that changed the world). The first episode was about Pi. Except the first part wasn't really about Pi at all.. It started with that painting of Fuxi and Nuwa. Actually, a slightly different version of the painting..



    The program states that the Astana cemetary was at the "westernmost frontier" of China (at the time), and the edge of an arid desert (part of the Silk Road), and that Astana means "The place of rest" in the Uyghur language... where the long journey of life ends. In makes sense.. its where the sun sets, and (vegetative) life ends at the desert. This land was used by the aristocrats of early Tang and Kaochang to bury their dead for 500 years - from approx. 400-800a.d. The painting itself is estimated to date from between 300-500a.d.

    The program goes on to say that Fuxi and Nuwa are the male and female creator-gods, said to have created the world, and also the sun, moon and stars.





    Then it goes off on a tangent.. to 2000 years ago, and a "very important day for the Emperor". The feudal lords have gathered at the final month of the year, to receive from the Emperor, the "Sun of Heaven", the new calendar.. in other words, he bestows "Time" upon them. And how the rules that govern civilization all start with "Time". Then it brings up "the oldest book of astronomy" in the world, specifically two images of circle and square. This circle and square are reminiscent ofthe ruler and compass held by Fuxi and Nuwa.



    "what are the rules? Without these rules we cannot create circles or rectangles (square)". The circle and rectangle (square) symbolize the Heavens and Earth. The Heavens are a circle, and the Earth is a rectangle (square). To paraphrase the program: "Before clocks, the only way to keep track of time is through the heavens. Only the Emperor was allowed to observe the Heavens. And so watching the sun, moon and stars, the Emperor wondered how he could measure those circles".
    You mentioned squaring the circle.. which would be somewhere inbetween those two images from the book (square on inside and square on outside of the circle), and sure enough, the program then gets into that, then calculating the area of circles and circumferences and the search for Pi.

    The following is cribbed together from some quick wikipedia research:

    "Pangu was said to be the creation god in Chinese mythology. He was a giant sleeping within an egg of chaos. As he awoke, he stood up and divided the sky and the earth. Pangu then died after standing up, and his body turned into rivers, mountains, plants, animals, and everything else in the world, among which is a powerful being known as Hua Hsu.[clarification needed] Hua Hsu gave birth to a twin brother and sister, Fuxi and Nwa. Fuxi and Nwa are said to be creatures that have faces of human and bodies of snakes."
    ---

    "Nwa, also read Ngua, is the mother goddess of Chinese mythology, the sister and wife of Fuxi, the emperor-god. She is credited with creating mankind and repairing the Pillar of Heaven.[1]"
    ..bringing us back to the Axis Mundi. "Nuwa Mends the Heavens" is a well known theme in Chinese culture:

    "The Huainanzi tells an ancient story about how the four pillars that support the sky crumbled inexplicably. Other sources have tried to explain the cause, i.e. the battle between Gong Gong and Zhuanxu or Zhu Rong. Unable to accept his defeat, Gong Gong deliberately banged his head onto Mount Buzhou (不周山) which was one of the four pillars. Half of the sky fell which created a gaping hole and the earth itself was cracked; the earth's axis mundi was tilted into the southeast while the sky rose into the northwest. This is said to be the reason why the western region of China is higher than the eastern and that most of its rivers flow towards the southeast. This same explanation is applied to the sun, moon, and stars which moved into the northwest. A wildfire burnt the forests and led the wild animals to run amok and attack the innocent peoples, while the water which was coming out from the earth's crack didn't seem to be slowing down.[4]

    Nwa pitied the humans she had made and attempted to repair the sky. She gathered five colored-stones (red, yellow, blue, black, and white) from the riverbed, melted them and used them to patch up the sky: since then the sky (clouds) have been colorful. She then killed a giant turtle (or tortoise), some version named the tortoise as Ao, cut off the four legs of the creature to use as new pillars to support the sky. But Nwa didn't do it perfectly because the unequal length of the legs made the sky tilt. After the job was done,drove away the wild animals, extinguished the fire, and controlled the flood with a huge amount of ashes from the burning reeds. The world became as peaceful as it was before."

    "Before the two of them got married, they lived on mount K'un-lun. A prayer was made after the two became guilty of falling for each other. The prayer is as follows,

    "Oh Heaven, if Thou wouldst send us forth as man and wife, then make all the misty vapor gather. If not, then make all the misty vapor disperse."[11]

    Misty vapor then gathered after the prayer signifying the two could marry. When intimate, the two made a fan out of grass to screen their faces which is why during modern day marriages, the couple hold a fan together. By connecting, the two were representative of Yin and Yang; Fuxi being connected to Yang and masculinity along Nwa being connected to Yin and femininity. This is further defined with Fuxi receiving a carpenter's square which symbolizes his identification with the physical world because a carpenter's square is associated with straight lines and squares leading to a more straightforward mindset. Meanwhile, Nwa was given a compass to symbolize her identification with the heavens because a compass is associated with curves and circles leading to a more abstract mindset. With the two being married, it symbolized the union between heaven and Earth.[11] Other versions have Nwa invent the compass rather than receive it as a gift.[13]"
    I assume this marriage happens before they "create".

    Comparing with the first half, the geometry is still important in the Chinese system even though there are significant differences. The basic system has 12 signs as well... Although its not based on the Solar Year, but on the orbital period of Jupiter (~12 years). That's Jupiter's "solar year", or orbit around the ecliptic plane. Like the Western Zodiac, these signs are grouped into triplicities (trines, which I haven't researched enough to understand) and also by the 5 elements.



    The significance of Jupiter is not hard for me to reconcile, since for a long time, Jupiter (Zeus-pater) had perhaps the most prominent role in Western Astrology. "Ruler of Heaven".. "Father of the Gods", "King", etc. (the 36 decans were also formerly far more important than they are today).

    "The Ruler of Heaven is Jupiter; and through the intermediary of heaven he dispenses life to all beings. (Possibly an earlier statement that it is breath or spiritus which keeps life in all the beings of the world relates to this supremacy of Jupiter, the god of Air.)

    Jupiter occupies a place intermediary between heaven and earth. The Sun, or Light, for it is through the intermediary of the solar circle that light is spread to all. The Sun illuminates the other stars not so much by the power of his light as by his divinity and sanctity. He must be held as the second god. The world is living and all things in it are alive and it is the sun which governs all living things."
    The Chinese yearly calendar is divided into 24 "solar terms":



    "The points are spaced 15 apart along the ecliptic[2] and are used by lunisolar calendars to stay synchronized with the seasons, which is crucial for agrarian societies. The solar terms are also used to calculate intercalary months in East Asian calendars;[3] which month is repeated depends on the position of the sun at the time. According to the Book of Documents, the first determined term was the Winter Solstice, also named Dongzhi by Zhou Gong, while he was trying to locate the geological center of his kingdom, by measuring the length of the sun's shadow on an ancient timekeeper instrument named Tu Gui (土圭).[4] Then four terms of seasons were set, which were soon evolved as eight terms; until 104 B. C. in the book Taichu Calendar, the entire 24 solar terms were officially included in Chinese calendar.[5]

    Because the Sun's speed along the ecliptic varies depending on the Earth-Sun distance, the number of days that it takes the Sun to travel between each pair of solar terms varies slightly throughout the year. Each solar term is divided into three pentads [ja] (候 hu) (ja), so there are 72 pentads in a year. Each pentad consists of five, rarely six, days, and are mostly named after phenological (biological or botanical) phenomena corresponding to the pentad."
    And although it starts out with a 12 year cycle, the year is still broken down into months, weeks, days, hours like in Western Astrology:

    "
    In Chinese astrology the animal signs assigned by year represent how others perceive you or how you present yourself. It is a common misconception that the animals assigned by year are the only signs, and many Western descriptions of Chinese astrology draw solely on this system. In fact, there are also animal signs assigned by month (called "inner animals"), by day (called "true animals") and hours (called "secret animals"). The Earth is all 12 signs, 5 seasons."
    -------------

    This is just a bit of "speculation" on the Fuxi/Nuwa tangent... The bits about the Emperor being the only one allowed to observe the heavens and bestow time/the calendar to his subjects is pretty much standard in these societies where the knowledge is kept by a special group of high priests and suppressed among the common people. It especially reminds me of Egypt. Add to that the multiple roles of Nuwa (wife, sister) also sounds very egyptian with their Husband/Father/Son and Wife/Mother/Daughter multiple (often confusing) roles. This is echoed, I believe, in some of the Kabbalistic symbolism of Keter/Tiferet and Binah/Shekhinah(Malkut).

    The "misty vapor" sounds like a combination of two Egyptian dieties: Shu (Egyptian for "emptiness" and "he who rises up"). Shu is Air: Fog and clouds were also Shu's elements and they were often called his bones. Because of his position between the sky and earth, he was also known as the wind; and his sister, Tefnut" Literally translating as "That Water",[2] the name Tefnut has been linked to the verb 'tfn' meaning 'to spit'[3] and versions of the creation myth say that Ra (or Atum) spat her out and her name was written as a mouth spitting in late texts.

    These were the first dieties, the children of Iusaaset, "the great one who comes forth", described as the grandmother of all deities". She was associated with the acacia tree, considered the "Tree of Life" to the egyptians. And Atum:

    Atum's name is thought to be derived from the verb tm which means 'to complete' or 'to finish'. Thus he has been interpreted as being the "complete one" and also the finisher of the world, which he returns to watery chaos at the end of the creative cycle. As creator he was seen as the underlying substance of the world, the deities and all things being made of his flesh or alternatively being his ka.[5]
    -
    In the Heliopolitan creation myth, Atum was considered to be the first god, having created himself, sitting on a mound (benben) (or identified with the mound itself), from the primordial waters (Nu).[6] Early myths state that Atum created the god Shu and goddess Tefnut by spitting them out of his mouth.[7] Atum did so through masturbation, with the hand he used in this act representing the female principle inherent within him.[8] Other interpretations state that he has made union with his shadow.[9]

  5. #25
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    Awesome, Greg.
    Keep on the good and interesting work!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    You mentioned squaring the circle... which would be somewhere in-between those two images from the book (square on inside and square on outside of the circle)
    Never gave this too much thought, but now that you mention it, "squaring" (earth) the circle (heaven) can also have a very direct Alchemical interpretation, i.e. converting the heaven (Spirit?) into Earth (matter), as the Emerald Tablet suggests. In other words, "Squaring the Circle" = "Making the Spirit flesh".

  7. #27
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    The Chinese Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Never gave this too much thought, but now that you mention it, "squaring" (earth) the circle (heaven) can also have a very direct Alchemical interpretation, i.e. converting the heaven (Spirit?) into Earth (matter), as the Emerald Tablet suggests. In other words, "Squaring the Circle" = "Making the Spirit flesh".
    I wrote a huge post that got deleted because I'm using a tablet so I'll come back to write a more detailed post later.

    Thank you Greg, this was exactly what I was hoping for, now I hope with this amazing puzzling of the secrets many on this forum will understand Taoist and Qi Gongs connection with Alchemy and as I will hope to add later a strong similarity (if not direct relationship) in Taoist Magical practices with Goetic, Solomonic and Ceremonial Magic. But that is another topic.

    Indeed, the Xian or immortal is the master of breathing arts who has married heaven and earth. The person who has transformed the leaden earthly body into the heavenly recepticle.

    "He who understands earth is a wise man, and he who understands heaven is a sage."

    Andro basically laid it out the Chinese connection lol

    There is a thread here in Mithraism and Indo-Iranian or Persian myth, as well so I am glad you brought up the Islamic Ibn Arabi source.

    The squared circle is connected to more, and I hope this catches some people's attention because I would hate to spoil the exciting experience of opening those new doors of knowledge.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andro View Post
    Never gave this too much thought, but now that you mention it, "squaring" (earth) the circle (heaven) can also have a very direct Alchemical interpretation, i.e. converting the heaven (Spirit?) into Earth (matter), as the Emerald Tablet suggests. In other words, "Squaring the Circle" = "Making the Spirit flesh".
    Very nice!



    It's also the symbol for Noah's ark. And when you add the missing lines at the gap, you'll see what kind of container and substance that is to achieve that goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    I wrote a huge post that got deleted because I'm using a tablet so I'll come back to write a more detailed post later.
    I really only get into involved replies from my desktop.. and even then I type into notepad and copy/paste when I'm done. I've been burnt by online editors too often.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    Indeed, the Xian or immortal is the master of breathing arts who has married heaven and earth. The person who has transformed the leaden earthly body into the heavenly recepticle.

    "He who understands earth is a wise man, and he who understands heaven is a sage."
    All the Chinese material is new to me, but I am aware of these ideas from different schools. Kabbalah, Hermeticism, Gnostic, Sufi, etc. I could go on about Tiferet in the tree of life, half-way between Malkut (Earth) and Keter (Heaven), the star of david with its interlocked upward and down facing triangles... The male/female "aspects of god".. all that good stuff. But I'm weak on the Chinese and Indian (Brahamism/Hinduism/Jainism). And not that I dismissed them, but because you can spend a life time studying either one.

    But here's a couple of versions of Heaven/Earth man, as I know him:



    I talked to a guy on facebook awhile ago.. Paul Martyn-Smith. He's done on a lot of work on the math/number theory of the I Ching (Ho Tu, Lo Shu? I dunno).. I know he has a paper up on Scribd "The Judgement's and Law's of the Sacred Mountain". Discussing these things with him, he said:

    "The Sacred Mountain is described as a diamond - half above the field (or waters) and half below. It arose up out of the water, and on top a tree grew, and then garden on its sides. From a Tibetan narrative."
    I haven't been able to a source (for example, the tibetan narrative) that supports this claim, but it was pretty interesting to me.

    Since posting my replies, I came across this.. From Christian de Medices' "Consurus Philosophorum":



    It's interesting because it has the 1 and the 3 in the caption again:

    Superiora si unum et tria egerint in unum et tria inferiora res unum et tria inferiora egerint in unum et tria superiora. Tunc beneficio Azoth.

    Uni, et Trini Superioris et inferioris habetis unum et trinum superioris et inferioris perfectum

    I've broken this down into different fragments in a variety of ways, feeding into machine translator, and am not really happy with any of the results although I believe I understand the gist of it. Maybe Zoas will see this and offer a translation. It's not unrelated to the discussion here: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showt...um-(Madathanus)

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    There is a thread here in Mithraism and Indo-Iranian or Persian myth, as well so I am glad you brought up the Islamic Ibn Arabi source.
    Well I've been getting my Ibn Arabi sources in order, and decided to check my usual places for other books, and did a bunch of downloading. I have renamed them, checked to make sure they were OCR'd (in other words, I haven't read them or even browsed them yet), and here's something I've already seen in "Ibn Arabi - Time and Cosmology" by Mohamed Haj Yousef:



    And it's list of diagrams:



    ..it would seem I know what I'm talking about sometimes.

    Of course, Islam inherited from the Egyptians, Greeks, Jews, Indians, Chinese, and Persians.



    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Very nice!



    It's also the symbol for Noah's ark. And when you add the missing lines at the gap, you'll see what kind of container and substance that is to achieve that goal.


    All of the greek number theory and geometry mentioned is pretty significant to the Masons.

    The triangle to square breaks down as:
    4:3 in the number of sides, perfect 4th
    90:60 in the angles, reducing to 3:2, the perfect 5th.

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