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Thread: Anyone interested in John Dee and his work?

  1. #41
    In broad terms I agree with what you argue D. Trout.

    Permit me to bring something to the table:

    Certainly enochian has grammer and syntax of it's own rather then for example that of hebrew which the Golden Dawn tried to use. The first time I came across good arguements for this was in the foreword to Laycock's enochian dictionary. The enochian letters however could just be symbols drawn from stenographia if the angels only gave sounds for consonants and vowels to Kelly; Dee could have then used symbols from stenographia for an alphabet. This could perhaps explain why some academics view enochian as merely a code system used by Dee to give secret messages to Walsingham about the Catholic agendas.

    Another thing that caught my interest on one of Poke Runyon's podcasts was about how humans develop language skills as children. Apparently we have an innate ability to construct rules of syntax and grammer which normally exhibits in learning to talk when young. So in the abscence of language a child could spontaneously develop one (a language) so the theory goes. With regard to enochian then, is it possible that Kelly somehow regressed cognitively whilst having some kind of schizophrenic break. He then in his 'visions' gained a language which the innate part of his brain was able to develop rules of grammer and syntax for. Some people with asperge's syndrom can develop a new language which is internally coherent. The problem for me with this is that I spent about a decade going gradualy through the 30 Aethyrs pausing them for other magickal work over that time period. So the above inherent language facility explanation is not supported by my personal experience, but from a strict scientific standpoint it is a theory with some merit and a little bit of supporting evidence as well.

    It is a shame that an incredible mind like Dee's was never fully applied to Alchemy. The modern work on spagyrics for example would have certainly enabled him to solve the problem of his 'bleeding fundament' which it would appear the enochian angels were unable to address for him.
    Last edited by Axismundi000; 09-03-2012 at 01:40 AM.

  2. #42
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    Before writing Edward Kelly off as a charlatan perhaps one should read his alchemical writings and then compare the information therein with the "alchemical" writings of John Dee.

    Edward Kelly wrote, The Stone of the Philosophers; The Humid Way, or a Discourse upon the Vegetable Menstruum of Saturn; and The Theater of Terrestrial Astronomy.

    z0 K

  3. #43
    I have looked at Kelly's stuff on pdf though many years ago when I was not starting Alchemy. The guy was definately in my view a charlatan.

    Pardon me but do you understand what I was suggesting with respect to the enochian language?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    I have looked at Kelly's stuff on pdf though many years ago when I was not starting Alchemy. The guy was definately in my view a charlatan.

    Pardon me but do you understand what I was suggesting with respect to the enochian language?
    I read your previous post and I do understand what you were suggesting (especially when one has read Dee’s, Hieroglyphic Monad):
    “Dee could have then used symbols from stenographia for an alphabet. This could perhaps explain why some academics view enochian as merely a code system used by Dee to give secret messages to Walsingham about the Catholic agendas.”

    What you suggest about developing language is right on with me.

    John Dee and Edward Kelly were partners. Of the two Kelly was an alchemist. He was not a schizophrenic. The myths surrounding him include the assumption that he was a forger, a felon that had his ears cut off. To my knowledge there are no facts to support that assumption. There are similar myths about Nicholas Flamel, that he went from a poor scribe to a wealthy man by forging documents and using the mystique of alchemy to “launder” his clandestine wealth. There are no facts to support this speculation either. Does that make Flamel a charlatan?

    Edward Kelly was an outlaw alchemist. So were many others including Eirenaeus Philalethes who confessed his crime of selling alchemical gold and then evading the authorities. A. Sutchen was imprisoned and tortured for making gold and not revealing the recipe. That is similar to what happened to Edward Kelly.

    Anyone interested in John Dee’s work will get a dose of Edward Kelly in the mix. The whole scrying epoch they achieved was the result of their notorious partnership.

    “Getting back to Alchemy I remember reading somewhere that the angels told Dee where some philosophers stone had been hidden, Dee and Kelly dug it up but if they actualy used it to project is not something I have read.”

    Kelly (Talbot) was “traveling” (on the run) in Whales when the opportunity arose for him to buy a casket containing the red and white powders of projection made by the legendary St. Dunstan, the abbot of Glastonbury. That was before Kelly met Dee.

    Kelly had been an apothecary among other occupations, and he had knowledge of chymystry. That's why he recognized the great value in the alchemical powders the grave robbers dug up and "sold" to the innkeeper for a flask of wine. Kelly performed many transmutations with the Glastonbury "stones" attempting to raise funding to start a lab to unravel the secrets of the alchemical treasure.


    z0 K

  5. #45
    Loads of interesting stuff here z0 K.

    You have argued that Kelly was not a forger but merely persecuted for his art. I have read mainly secondary sources and at the time my motivation was purely to access the enochian magickal system. If what you say is true then the whole dynamic of the superior intellect of Dee and the crafty psychic Kelly would constitute a modern occult myth that I have been suckered into!

    I think it was Stephen Skinner who wrote that Dee and Kelly were doing conjurations on a hill in the Welsh marches and were directed to dig up a treasure which they found to be the philosphers stone, so again my info is from a secondary source.

    Thankyou for prompting me to re-examine this issue. My gut still says that Kelly was a scoundrel but this could be merely my prejudice over the wife swapping episode. Sometimes when important spiritual experiences have occured the historical mundane events relating to such work can become entirely resistant to reason. Perhaps if you could hit me over the head with the facts a few time here z0 K (give references) it will be greatly appreciated.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axismundi000 View Post
    Loads of interesting stuff here z0 K.

    You have argued that Kelly was not a forger but merely persecuted for his art. I have read mainly secondary sources and at the time my motivation was purely to access the enochian magickal system. If what you say is true then the whole dynamic of the superior intellect of Dee and the crafty psychic Kelly would constitute a modern occult myth that I have been suckered into!

    I think it was Stephen Skinner who wrote that Dee and Kelly were doing conjurations on a hill in the Welsh marches and were directed to dig up a treasure which they found to be the philosphers stone, so again my info is from a secondary source.

    Thankyou for prompting me to re-examine this issue. My gut still says that Kelly was a scoundrel but this could be merely my prejudice over the wife swapping episode. Sometimes when important spiritual experiences have occured the historical mundane events relating to such work can become entirely resistant to reason. Perhaps if you could hit me over the head with the facts a few time here z0 K (give references) it will be greatly appreciated.
    The information about Edward Kelly that I posted comes from, The Alchemical Writings of Edward Kelly, translated from the Hamburg edition of 1676, published in the edition by James Elliott & Co. London 1893. This includes the 68 page biography by A.E. Waite. My copy is the fourth impression by Samuel Weiser, New York, 1976.

    There is additional information about Edward Kelly that I read years ago in Gnosis magazine. The article addressed the legends that Kelly faked his death with the full approval of Emperor Rudolph II, the same tyrant that imprisoned him. Supposedly Kelly succeeded in repeating the processes detailed in the Glastonbury manuscript by St. Dunstan that was part of the alchemical treasure contained in the casket. Unfortunately I can’t find that issue of Gnosis magazine. So I’m going on memory alone.

    Kelly then operated a “mine” for the Emperor that laundered the alchemical gold into his treasury. The Emperor didn’t want other potentates of the time to know he was filling his coffers with alchemical gold.

    z0 K

  7. #47
    Thanks for the info, I thought I had read th A.E. Waite book a couple decades ago but perhaps was'nt paying attention at the time. I will get a copy, any other sources?

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